Woman's Hour - Kirsty Wark on leaving Newsnight, Sports Personality of the Year

Episode Date: December 19, 2023

Kirsty Wark joins Emma Barnett to talk about stepping down from Newsnight after 30 years; what she’s planning to fill the extra time with and she also shares some Christmas cooking tips.A new book, A Heart Afire, paints a picture of paediatrician Helen Taussig who dedicated her life to looking after children with heart defects. We hear from author Patricia Meisol.We look at the issues of "workplace housework" - tasks like organising office Christmas parties, sorting the secret santa gifts, decorating the communal spaces - with economist Lise Vasterlund and comedian Cally Beaton.Could a woman win the BBC's annual Sports Personality Of The Year award later today? Now in it's 70th year, we talk to Lady Mary Peters who won the gong in 1972 – the same year she won gold in the pentathlon at the Munich Olympics.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Neva Missirian

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Welcome to the programme, my last incidentally, before Christmas. So just as well, we have my former colleague and Newsnight legend, Kirsty Walk, on the programme with whom I will definitely talk news and journalism. But as a keen cook and someone who makes a mean cocktail, I'm promised some vital information from Kirsty Wark about vodka tomatoes at Christmas.

All that to come ahead of the 70th BBC Sports Personality of the Year Award this evening. I will be joined by Lady Mary Peters, who won it in 1972. That was the same year she won gold in the pentathlon at the Munich Olympics, aged 33 and working as a secretary, pretty much full time alongside training to be an athlete. Plus the story of the groundbreaking doctor who changed our lives with her curiosity. And back to those vodka tomatoes. Before Kirsty Walk does her level best to convince me to make them on Christmas Day, and I'll probably do what she says because that's what's a good rule for life with Kirsty Walk.

What's your speciality that perhaps make people wrinkle their nose at, but then come to love? If possible, I will try to make. 84844, your signature. Text will be charged at your standard message rate if you choose to text us. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. You can email me through the Women's Hour website or send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. Just watch those data charges depending on your providers.

You may wish to use Wi-Fi. But first, the BBC understands that long-awaited government guidance for schools in England on children who identify as transgender will say that their parents should be informed about their wishes unless there's a safeguarding issue. The advice is expected to be published by the Department for Education shortly. The guidance is also likely to advise schools that they should retain single-sex toilets and single-sex changing facilities. This guidance was first promised to schools in England more than five years ago. My colleagues on the Today programme heard from a parent whom calling Rachel, whose 16-year-old daughter socially transitioned at school without the family's knowledge. Rachel explained what her daughter had asked for from

the school and what followed from them. She asked that she could be called by a different name and pronouns at school and the school went along with it. Apparently there was no questions asked but they didn't tell the family, didn't tell me and they actively hid it from me for about four months despite me being in touch with the school and expressing concerns about my daughter's well-being. They kept it hidden from me. I was very concerned about things that were going on and her dress and behaviour and I reached out to the school and they told me to wait until she felt ready to talk to me. I had several conversations with them over the course of a few months and at no point did they tell me what was actually going on. They just told me to wait until she was ready to talk to me. And the school just kept telling me to wait. They did say they were

encouraging her to talk to me, but it just didn't happen and they weren't honest at all in what they knew. I want the schools to make sure that parents are included in whatever is going on with their children. You know, at the end of the day, she's still a child. I have parental responsibility. It's up to me to care for her, for her well-being, physical and mental. And I have to say I'm completely horrified that the school did this and kept me in the dark. We did ask for an interview with the Equalities Minister,

Kemi Badenoch, who's been behind this guidance, but she's declined to come on to Woman's Hour at this time. But listening to that, Kevin Sexton, Executive Head at Chesterfield High School, a mixed comprehensive in Liverpool. Good morning. Good morning. Should she have been told, that parent? Well, I mean, I can't comment on individual cases because I don't know the finer details, but ultimately our work as leaders in schools is to support children and families to work together in situations like this. But they can be very complex and we encourage the children to lead that agenda in terms of them feeling confident to talk about these issues with their parents. With the new guidance as we understand it I know it's about to be announced it will be that teachers should disclose to parents that's the change that's what we believe at the moment and understand to be the case do you welcome that and will it mean changes in your school? I mean it's quite mixed about what

the guidance is saying what it's saying is that when children are discussing with teachers about gender identity, their own identity, that it feels that there's not going to be a compulsion to tell parents. However, if a child wanted to change their pronouns, et cetera, at that point, the school should contact the parents. And in the reality of the situation, that's happened a lot earlier than those decisions are being made. We ultimately have a lot of support services and external services that we use for parents and children who are socially transitioning to involve them at all stages of that journey. So the guidance is long awaited. It's just a shame they didn't do the consultation beforehand to make sure that it was informed guidance. OK, I mean, it's an important point, slightly technical point, because there's going to be a consultation now after it's been published for those who aren't up on this. But I'm unclear. Are you going to be changing anything in light of this guidance as we understand it?

In terms of our own particular practices that we've been working with that have been successful the last 10 years, I don't really see much for us to change at this point. So at the moment, if a child comes to you, a teacher, and says, you know, I no longer, as someone who'd been seen as a girl, who was born a girl, want to be seen as a boy, and social transitioning for those who aren't aware, want to have different pronouns, start dressing differently in school and all of that you wouldn't necessarily tell the parents I think it's a case-by-case situation because you need to make assessment in terms of where the child was at in terms of their own confidence about discussing that with their

parents and I think that's the important part of this guidance you can't have blanket guidance generalized for individual cases so we work with children in actually reality is a lot of parents contact us ourselves to say they feel that their child is socially transitioning lots of children will come in in year seven already starting socially transitioning and parents are asking what are you going to do to support my child that's a slightly different i'm trying to say i suppose focused on what it seems and i'd obviously love to have asked the government this but i haven't been able to get anybody on from the government this morning the team haven't and made those requests as i said but i'm trying to

understand what this guidance is then for and why it's taken so many years if you say it's not going to change anything in your approach well i think the guidance has been uh has gone through lots of different amendments this one seems to be far less harsh than the one that we were predicted because of the qualities that and the role of schools to actually protect children who are vulnerable and to also ensure that children have a broad education in terms of all aspects of relationships and sex so i just feel that uh i'm not i'm quite unsure why two days before christmas holidays the government feels it's the right time to produce guidance that we won't be able to consult on for three weeks and what purpose it has i think schools that have got best practice

in terms of working with parents will continue to make the right choices for children and we do that on individual basis and we try and ensure that children and their parents are part of that journey together, because that makes it far more successful in the long term. You were talking there about some schools were expecting this to be harsher. That was the idea that in all circumstances, teachers would go to parents and say what was going on in this field with their child. And that isn't going to be the case.'s going to say each you know that teachers should do it and there are certain circumstances and it says about safeguarding as well where that might not happen what scenario is it where you will not tell a parent well if a child disclosed to me that they were extremely concerned for their safety

in discussing me disclosing that to the parent then I'd have to make that assessment that what was the best in in the best interest of the child and we would do that just as I assess that as any safeguarding incident the reality is in schools it's not individual teachers that make or discuss this with parents there's a whole well-being support service that is there engaging with people all the time to ensure children are happy and safe at school. I still don't understand, forgive me if it's clear, but what is a safeguarding issue that would stop a teacher in your school? The child felt they were going to go home and be physically hurt or chucked out of home or,

you know, some form of intimidation or bullying around that decision, then I'd have to make the choice in terms of what was the safest thing for the child. And how will you check if that's the case or not? How do you check at the moment? Because, you know, children can sometimes make poor witnesses to their reality. I think you have to ultimately listen to the voice of the child. This guidance needs to be child-centred with an important aspect of how we engage with parents. And I think it's going to be interesting in the consultation, how that actually develops in terms of that parental consultation, and what's the reality of what's happening on the ground in schools.

So I think this has been written detached from schools, not involving many school leaders about what really is going on in school. And also importantly, consulting children. You know, it's a really important part of this. Where is the child's voice in this consultation process? We have a statement that's just come in from the Minister for Women and Equalities, Kemi Badenoch, who said, this guidance is intended to give teachers and school leaders greater confidence when dealing with an issue that has been hijacked by activists misrepresenting the law. It makes clear that schools do not have to accept a child's request to socially transition, and that teachers or pupils should not be pressured into using different pronouns. We are also clear how vital it is that parents are

informed and involved in the decisions that impact their children's lives. Well, I think we've covered off the last part of that with what we've just discussed, because it sounds like you are working with parents unless there's an issue of safeguarding. I don't want to summarise that inaccurately, but that seems to be what you said. Is that right? It is, yeah. Okay. But about the idea of schools not having to accept a child's request to socially transition and teachers and pupils not being pressured into using different pronouns. What do you say to that? Well, we've never asked teachers or staff to be pressurised into using different pronouns, but we do work in a school that actually promotes respect that challenges discrimination

that doesn't want a them and us culture and what I find is most teachers are respectful in terms of trying to manage that situation in a positive inclusive way that means children come to school every day to do their primary function which is be with their friends and learn. But there will and have been scenarios where teachers have been concerned about losing their jobs if they have got something like that wrong. You know, that's where this comes from. I'm not talking just about your school. And I wonder as a school leader, if you could comment on that and whether this guidance in that respect is welcome. I've never been in a situation, fortunately, with the staff I've got in my school, with the amount of training CPD we've done that staff haven't been supportive if they make uh mispronunciations about pronouns it's not that we're going to actually look you know to have them disciplined it's about being supportive and taking

people through a journey in terms of society if I'm out in the general public and somebody asks me to use a certain pronoun I respect their right to use that no what are you going to do if a teacher though doesn't choose to do that I recognise you can only talk so far on what's happened but you have to make decisions all the time as a school leader on what happens if people don't follow the rules, teachers included. Well I think that you know when teachers apply for a school they will look at the vision and values of that school and see if that's a school that they share the vision and values of and to be employed in a school like ours we are truly inclusive and want to respect all the different types of groups within our community and it's something that I think every teacher who works with us actually

celebrates and wants to be part of now if you don't want to be part of that then there are other schools that you might want to join but so you can't work you can't work at your school if you you aren't going to go along with the social transitioning of the children? People who apply to our school celebrate and want to join an inclusive organisation that is about promoting children's personal development. OK, I mean, the other thing is just looking at your school website, it says that Chesterfield High School has become a Stonewall champion school. Stonewall, of course course the LGBT charity has Stonewall been involved on your policy and how teachers deal with children who have questions about their gender identity uh no Stonewall is an organization we've worked with and we've worked with a number of LGBT organizations it's something that actually

our when I say policy it's it's our best practice has developed over time working with children and parents and it seems to work for us now you know it's difficult I'm sure for a government to write guidance for the whole nation but you know it works for us our parents are happy our children feel supported and we haven't had hostile parents fortunately so because we've done a lot of work with our parents around these issues beyond those who are socially transitioning. Do you have single-sex toilets still? We have every type of toilet you want. We have single-sex toilets.

We have toilets designed by children. They wanted unisex toilets. We have specialist toilets for vulnerable children. Going to the toilet is a very personal process for lots of different reasons as children at school and we want to make sure that they are happy in safe spaces. I bring that up again because the guidance has talked about this is from the education secretary Gillian Keegan's statement says this guidance puts the best interests of all children first removing any confusion about the protections that must be in place for biological sex and single sex spaces and making

clear that safety and safeguarding for all children must be the school's primary concern. Parents' views must also be at the heart of all decisions made about their children. And nowhere is that more important than with decisions that can have significant effects on a child's life for years to come. From your perspective, just finally, as this is being announced, and as you talked about, there'll be a consultation with teachers. Is there anything you're going to try and change or is it business as usual for you and you're pretty much going to ignore this guidance?

I mean, obviously, I can't say I'm going to ignore it because I haven't had a chance to read it yet. That's fine. But from what we know of it? I will read it. I will look at what is best practice. I will consult and reply. I will encourage as many will look at what is best practice I will consult and reply I will encourage as many people to consult and reply particularly children and parents because I think that voice is the most important and then hopefully this will come out later on the year but what I'm really really keen that it isn't it it doesn't turn what's going really well in schools into a them

enough situation. Going to school is a really important part of a child's life and if they can do it in the most happiest and safest way, whatever their identity, I think that's crucial to me as a school leader. I suppose there was a thought that this was a rebalancing towards parents being told what's going on in their child's lives. You sound bullish about the fact that that's going on already in your school. But perhaps there will be those who feel that it's not going on in their children's school. And that's where this guidance may come into play more. Who knows? Yeah. And, you know, there might be some positive steps out of this guidance because some schools will have to obviously look at the services they provide. I mean, I can only talk about my school

and it's not for me to comment about all the schools. No, I was just making a broader point, which is where perhaps some of this has come from. And then there'll be those again who will be saying, what are the actual services that are being put in place for support alongside this, perhaps through an NHS pathway, which also doesn't seem to be there.

There are many questions for the government on this. And I do hope we can put some of them to the relevant minister. But Kevin Sexton, Executive Head of Chesterfield High School, a mixed comprehensive in Liverpool, thank you for your time and reactions this morning. Thank you very much. Bye-bye. Thank you there. And as Kevin said, a consultation will now happen with schools.

If you want to get in touch and say anything on this with your experiences, 84844 is the number you need to get in touch on the text and you can do so also via our website. Now earlier this autumn, Kirsty Walker announced she would be stepping down as a Newsnight presenter after three decades, during which time she's seen eight prime ministers come and go. But this was before the announcement from the BBC to cut Newsnight to 30 minutes, lose its dedicated reporters and become a debate programme. Kirsty will carry on presenting until after the next general election, whenever that comes in the new year.

And apparently it is going to be in the new year. Rishi Sunak said to some journalists last night it will be next year, as opposed to it could be January of 2025, but let's see. But we did want to mark this milestone with Kirsty before that. And she joins me now from her home in Glasgow. Good morning, Kirsty. Good morning to you. Your last show of the year. Yes, here I am. And you've probably got a bit more to do, I imagine. But not so.

OK, good. Well, we'll get to that. And also what you're going to be doing a bit over Christmas as a keen cook, I mentioned. But 30 years and a commute from Scotland to London. How are you reflecting on it as it comes to the end of the year? I think, yeah, I mean, all these prime ministers, all these big stories, and Newsnight should have been the forefront of all these and will continue to be so, just in a different way. And I just think it's been just such a privilege. But you know what? We all know there is a pipeline.

And so, you know, let's not block the pipeline. And so therefore, I think after 30 years it's time for someone else to join the Newsnight team. Well I used to be on it with you. I should declare that interest as you're meant to do on the BBC. I know we never saw each other because you know we could be in the room at the same time presenting in different nights. I know like ships or trains in your case. Yes Emily Maitllis. Trains in my case. Yes, Emily Maitlis, yourself, of course, and me. And much was made actually of an all-female line-up, which... I know, I mean, you thought it was the 1950s.

So that was something just to mark perhaps on Women's Hour as we talk. But you did make your announcement and then came the announcement about Newsnight being changed. You very diplomatically quickly got in there. It will still be able to do what it does, News Newsnight in a different way. But what was your reaction? Because you care deeply about that programme. I do care deeply and I care so deeply about colleagues, but also about the kind of investigations that we do. Now, a lot of these investigations will be done elsewhere. But I think what was so important about Newsnight, and still will be in a different way because we still will be able to break stories it's not that's changing

it's that you know it was the commitment it's this long-term commitment to do difficult stuff you know your previous item we did a massive piece of work in the Tavistock clinic had it not been for our then editor Esme Wren who saw that through and. And that, in a sense, was a hallmark of what Newsnight does, difficult, tough stuff. You know, we've broken all the NHS trust stories in England. We've broken the stories about the former Met officers who were in a chat group and were also using racist comments. That kind of stuff is a kind of hallmark. But I mean, look, and I'm very sorry that's gone. I'll just put it on the record. However, I will say that everything changes.

And, you know, we are one tiny, tiny little matchbox size of cuts that the BBC is going to have to make. So reshaping the programme, half an hour, you know, we'll still be on at 10.30. The key thing about Newsnight,

on a big story, everybody comes to us. So linear still matters. But that's not, I mean,, on a big story, everybody comes to us. So linear still matters. There's no question. I hate to say this, especially sitting on the BBC as a 4%, but that's not always true anymore though, is it? If you look at the numbers. It is true. But if you look at the viewing

numbers. Oh, no, no. I think that's right. If you look at the viewing numbers, but if what happens is we have a story breaking that evening, people still know that Newsnight will bring you the very latest and there will be analysis and that won't change. I know, it's just when you see figures drop to 350,000, sometimes 250,000, it's very different from when you started.

And I just had to ask you this question because you don't shy away from the questions, Kirsty. You know, why not axe it? Why not, as opposed to letting it limp on, some media commentators have said, as a shadow of its former self, there's loads of debate programmes everywhere else. There aren't actually lots of debate programmes. Actually, what I now think, and I mean, it has been a process to get to this point to really think, because I mean, everybody was really banjaxed and it was really a tough time for everybody. But actually, you know, in this world, it's all about the brand. And Newsnight is a massive brand for BBC Two. And especially in election year, every single night, we will interrogate what is going to be a critical election. So it's not about killing it. I mean,

some people wanted to kill it, maybe, but lots of people didn't want to kill it. And I think, you know, whatever happens down the line, it's going to be a hail and hearty health. And, you know, we won't have some of our best editors, but we will still have Nick Watt running up to an election. And we will be able to call on some of our former editors who will be doing other jobs to come in and do stuff with us. So actually, I'm going to be bullish about this. And, you know, and I think I wouldn't have done it. I love Newsnight the way it was. But, but to your point about linear is not lost. So, you know, everybody has to change.

And so I think there is a future for Newsnight and I think it will be in a different format. What kept you going on a train for all these years? I know it's important, I should say, for those who perhaps haven't read interviews with you, because you're not often the subject, but you really wanted your children to have the Scottish childhood. That's why your family stayed there.

But what got you to keep coming for this role? What was your drive? My drive was that there was no better show in town. And that Newsnight, what I love about Newsnight is that it's this capacious bag. You know, the other night we got, you know, Brian Cox to sign off with a big expletive at the end of the show. That is that kind of buccaneering spirit of the program which I love so but I suppose you remember that you know you can do anything you can do cultural stuff political stuff foreign affairs

throw the running up order at nine o'clock up in the air and start again I I I love that program I love that that program because I thought we had and still will have a degree of freedom and latitude that doesn't exist in straight jacket news programmes. why you like the particular programme. So if any advice you've got now, you look back at getting through what must have been more like trench-like years, you know, those early years, broken sleep, coming away, leaving your children. Have you got any advice for women who are trying to stick it through at that time in their line of work? Well, I think on lean and everyday you can.

I mean, I, you know, friends, family, you know, my partner, Alan, if you do indeed have a partner. And I think the thing is, I had a huge amount of privilege. So let's just put it out there. You know, I earned good money. I think it's very hard for women, particularly, you know, you try and be a night shift nurse without support at home. I'm not going to give advice for people who I don't know the circumstance of their lives.

But I think women friends are phenomenal and you know you take everything that's going and then give it back I think that's what I would say but I mean I never took a job where I actually went to India and back to Shimla in the mountains in four days because I would never be away from children for more than like three and a half days it was ridiculous and when they were little I mean honestly that's a good commute there you go I get a sleeper home after news night and then stop at the bakers and try and be in the house before the kids were but don't get me you know don't get me wrong you know I was guilt trip of the children sometimes not times but now if they look back and

they say well you know you that you were a role model for us. You know, you just have to make it work as you do. I don't think you've also often got the credit that you deserve around banging the drum around menopause as well. I mean, there's a huge amount of knowledge and appreciation for your political interviews. You know, going back to Margaret Thatcher to the present day. But it was actually you who first got this documentary, a documentary about the menopause, onto the BBC, wasn't it?

Yeah, it took a while. I wouldn't say the BBC was forward about it. No, I was saying you were. I was saying you were. No, no, no, I absolutely, but I mean, to be honest, I had had a hard menopause at 46 when I had a full hysterectomy and so if it was the producer who had been trying desperately to get it on, May Miller, who came to me and said,

maybe if you tell your story, then the BBC will buy it. And they did. That must have been very hard, having a hysterectomy. Well, it was hard with a hysterectomy and it was full on. It was over the lot. So it was hard. And then I went on to the old horse's urine, Premarin. And then I stayed on that until the false scare in America where everybody just said, oh my God, HRT, what a disaster, which of course was nonsense. But

I came off and had a hard menopause. And the information around drugs, I mean, I'm just thinking to yesterday, there's this game changing drug to prevent hot flushes winning approval in the UK, but it's only going to be available privately from January. I mean, there's still a huge lottery as to how you get access to things. Yeah, I mean, and I do genuinely think that if men had hot flushes, it'd be on the NHS. You know, I just think there's still a kind of, you know, it's still problematic.

You know, I think women much less likely, much more open to a degree of talking about it. I don't think totally. And I think you have to kind of pull stuff out. So yes, I think I still think people, women

feel embarrassed. Women feel embarrassed to have hot flushes and this will help things. Well, that's a great plan. On the NHS. Our struggling NHS, one more thing the nhs has got to deal with is there an interview that you think back to and you've got 30 years of them here and i know you're not stopping we'll get to that um but is there one that you think back to that you you unpick still or you relive or you go over because you do that after those sorts of programmes? Oh, yeah. I mean, often you think, I mean, if you're interviewing a politician, I think it's omission that sometimes is the revelation because quite often you won't get them to fess up to things.

And I think increasingly they have other places to go, to be honest, that give them a softer ride maybe. But in a way, I think a politician that's prepared to come on and be challenged is, I think, doing their job properly. And I think I'm then doing my job properly. But often you think, I could have gone that bit further. Don't you think? Sometimes you think, you know, I just should have gone that bit further. I could have maybe got more out of that. But honestly, you can't beat yourself up the whole time.

Well, and I know that you, everyone has their own things. I don't know what you do when you get in and your adrenaline's rushing at that time of night. I remember, you know, just finding different things to try and sort of come down from it. But I know a big thing for you has been cooking and, you know, getting straight back into home life and rooting yourself. I mean, you've been on Comic Relief Bake Off, Celebrity MasterChef. And I'm told, let's talk about this, vodka tomatoes? What is this?

Yeah, look, just, I mean, vodka tomatoes. I'll just tell you very, very quickly, right. As many tomatoes as you want, small cherry tomatoes, make a cut, cruciform cut on the top, put them in a big bowl, put a bottle of vodka in, put them in the fridge for a few hours,

drain the vodka off and keep it for bloody Mary's. Take the vodka tomatoes in a dish, put some very good salt and pepper in another dish and hand them to your guests. Dip a tomato in the salt and pepper. It's great. It sounds hideous, but I believe you. It's hideous.

It sounds like it could be hideous. I think maybe because I also drank quite a bit last night, so I'm still feeling that. But I'm going to trust you, Kirsty, on this. I'm going to trust you. Honestly, on this. I'm going to trust you. Honestly, just do it over the festive period. I think it's one of those things, though, you have to find something that roots you back in.

And what do you think it is about doing, almost like the opposite of, I suppose, dealing with politics, is that home stuff? Because it's memory. It's memory of everything. It's memory around the house. It's memory of what my mother cooked, what my grandmother cooked. It gets the kids in.

Well, I mean, the kids are like massive now, you know. But I just, you know, I would just come in and make pancakes. They're the easiest. Something that I feel that I'm in the kitchen, I'm just back in the real world. It's lovely to talk. I'm not in that fancy media world. Exactly. Well, it's lovely to talk to you and think about that.

I am going to report back on the tomato side of things. And just to say, you do have a couple of things coming up we should hear about, don't you? Yes. I mean, we have the Christmas reunion edition of the reunion, nine o'clock Christmas morning, Band-Aid with Bob Geldof, Gary Kemp, Richard Skinner. Good one.

Just the expletives from Bob will have to be taken out. And the other thing is I did an archive on Vivienne Westwood in which Tracey Emin talks about almost getting Vivienne arrested because in Italy she'd produced a sketch, a naked sketch for Vivienne for one of her shows with a penis on it. Lovely. All that coming up on Radio 4. What a great way to end an interview, talking about penis.

Well, I only like to end them like that. Can I just share with you on some of our messages that have come in about people that are making things that are their signature that might not always appeal when you hear about it. Rosie says, I'm making pickled pears at this late stage in the Christmas run up. A recipe from my dear mother and my daughter made them last week, but we managed to mix up the recipe between us and overcook them. I'm now rescuing the situation. I also love a banana wrapped in bacon and put on the barbecue, says Hazel. There you go. And another one.

You've got to get a Leicestershire Christmas morning breakfast, says this message. A Melton Mowbray pork pie, some long Clausen Stilton on the table with pickled onions on the side. And this has now morphed into a whole cheese selection. Pate, ham, blinis and smoked salmon, several chilled bottles of fizz. Keep keeps you going until a late-ish Christmas dinner Merry Christmas

says Debbie wow all right I'm getting ready for a lot of different things that plus vodka tomatoes Kirsty Watt what a pleasure thank you for coming on Woman's Hour and Merry Christmas when you get there I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. There you go.

Now, let's talk about some of those jobs, but in the workplace, because organising Christmas parties, sorting secret Santa gifts, decorating the communal spaces, if those things have been happening in the workplace, who's making them happen? Lise Vasterlund, an economist and co-author of the book The No Club, says such tasks are examples of non-promotable gigs which disproportionately fall on women. And Lise joins me alongside Callie Beaton, a former TV executive with lots of experience of media boardrooms, to talk on this. Welcome to you both. Lise, talk to us, office housework, what is that?

So we want to call it non-promotable task because it tends to be the type of work that helps an organisation but doesn't help your individual career. So it could be serving on committees, it could be mentoring and training new employees, resolving conflicts, taking notes at a meeting, and of course office housework, cleaning up in the kitchen or the lunchroom falls into that category.

And what we've shown in our research is that regrettably, these sort of non-promotable tasks tend to fall, as you correctly said, more on women. We worked with one organization where we found that the women were spending 200 more hours per year on the non-promotable tasks than their male employees. So that's a solid month of work that they were spending on this. And regrettably, that carries over to every single profession that we've looked at. And in sort of diving deeper, it's not just a very sort of very substantial problem.

But what we can also see is that women, when they get asked to take on in the festive period, which some may relate to now, of course, sound quite fun. And also the idea of, I suppose, around mentoring, you know, sounds like a good thing to do. And there will be those who perhaps prefer that bit to their actual job. You know, they may think this is a thing that is nice to do. It's kind to do. It's communal. What do you say to that? So I think there's certainly some tasks that women enjoy doing more than men. Maybe they care more about decorating the office and making sure that

the meals are correctly selected. Regrettably, it's carrying over to many other tasks where women would actually prefer not to do these tasks. So while we could look at the holiday season and say, oh, look at the women, they're doing all this work because they enjoy doing it. We are seeing it carrying over to many, many other tasks. And at the end of the day, it's fine that we're spending time on the non-promotable assignments that we care most about, but then we should get sort of a pass on the other non-promotable assignments. So, you know, ultimately, if we have women volunteering more for these tasks, we also see that they're being asked far more frequently to take them on. And when they're asked, they say yes more. And it all comes down to us holding this collective expectation that this

is the type of work that they're taking on. So while it seems festive during the holiday season, if it carries over to the rest of the year, it's going to hurt the likelihood that women are going to get equal pay. It's going to hurt the likelihood that they get advanced in the organisation. It's definitely something to think about. Callie, let me welcome you at this point. What do you make of this? Well, I've sat in male-dominated boardrooms for, well i've sat in male dominated boardrooms for well i sat in them for about 20 years until i jacked it all in to become a comedian so nobody could tell me

what tasks to do and i could get paid very little for all tasks all of which are now non-promotable so don't take business advice from me but a couple of things i think i think it's an extension of the conversation we have about mental load and about women taking on so much more of what needs to be done outside of the sort of more fun stuff and I think that sort of seeps into office work as well and I mean it's hard for me to say specifically because I always had teams that were largely female I had huge numbers of very strong women all around me so women were doing everything from the lowliest tasks to the biggest tasks but I do think it's worth us thinking about something a bit more infrastructural about how people can say no. So it's quite hard for somebody, I'm spending a lot of time in hospitals at the moment with my partner,

and a lot of the sort of unenviable tasks are done by women. And I suspect a lot of those women aren't able to say, no, I don't want to do that task. There's something else I'd rather be doing that would be more to do with my career. so I think it's brilliant a book like this is there because it's about us now looking more broadly at how we could support women to be able to say no to things because I don't know we can't comment on how it is in the BBC or other organizations for which some of us work but it is true to say it's quite hard to say no and people who say no sometimes it's the last conversation they have with their employer. So it's a serious, a serious topic in that regard.

Do you cover that, Lise, about saying no? Yeah. So and that's precisely why it's so important to show that this is driven by our collective expectations, because what we do find is that when women say no, they are far more likely to experience backlash than if a man says no. So it really, as much as we can, and we do try to do that in the book, help women sort of navigate how to say no. We help women figure out how to negotiate their yeses so they don't just, you know, take on a task. But at the end of the day, this really comes down to the organizations needing to change because if women are up against a different set of expectations than the expectations faced by men,

they can't just start by saying no. I mean, I get that you're talking about this building up and how it works like systemically, but, you know, I mean, we also have had just somebody who's texted in, Mike, one of our male listeners, who said it was always me who did the decorations and the Christmas party in the office for the last 10 years. He also says Merry Christmas and stay off the tomatoes. Thanks for that, Mike.

But there are those. And Callie, just to bring in your experience here, you know, there are those sorts of tasks which then allow you to sometimes when you're more junior, especially get closer to more senior people and perhaps help with a promotion. Because you may be working with somebody that you can't normally have access to through those softer skills or however you want to describe it what do you make of that yeah that's definitely true um and the other thing is if you look at what makes people want to do the things they do in life i worked as an executive coach for 20 odd years and it's the balance between pleasure and i'm 103 am i just trying to add it up you look very well. We both look amazing.

It's a shame we're on the radio because the whole nation is missing out here. But I think if you look at what makes or breaks people beyond their career, just overall in their lives, it's a combination of pleasure and purpose. And if about 80% of what we do ticks the box of either pleasure or purpose or in the ideal point you know both of those things and it is true to say you know I know what kept me in boardroom life at least for the last 10 years was all the things I could do to influence the culture to give women coming up through the ranks a better crack of the whip than I'd had and that was partly altruistic but it was partly quite selfish because it gave me a purpose and a reason to be there beyond taking the paycheck so it's a really nuanced debate but above all all, it is about the overall system. If we put it on,

it's brilliant. I love the concept of this. I love the idea of the no club. I'm all for books like this being out there. But if only it was as simple as women learning to assert more, you know, it's like the thing about men applying for jobs when they have only 60% of the qualifications, women wait until they've got 100%. And we give women mentoring and confidence training. It's not about that. It's about the whole system. And meaning it doesn't get to the point where that could even happen.

So it's a massively sort of nuanced debate. And I just wouldn't want anyone listening who couldn't say no, who might be going, I'd love to have told the boss where to stick it when he said put the Christmas tree up. But I kind of needed the job. There'll be that, which I know the authors of this book will be aware of you know but it's it's that it's understanding how deep-rooted this is. Lisa let me give you a chance to come back on that quickly if I can. No absolutely that's it the no club in our title is very much a collective no

this this is not something the individual women can fix. And very importantly, it's in the interest of the organizations to fix this because no organization wants more people to say no. So what we really need to figure out is how do we do a better job of distributing work? We can see in our work that these differences show up within the first year of women entering the labor market. So highly skilled women going into the labor market within the first year are spending far more time on administrative tasks than their male colleagues. And this is not because they love to do paper filing and checking numbers. We have a systemic problem and it is costly to the organizations not to find better ways of distributing the work so that they can figure out who's good at doing what. Lisa Astellant there, the book's called The No Club. And Callie Beeson, thank you to you.

And comedy, Callie, can also go a long way when you're trying to say no, I was going to say as well. I think just do things really badly like my kids do and you never get asked to do them again. That's always a good principle. Another skill. There you go. Thanks for having me. Lovely to talk to you. Thank you. And Lydia's just written in, having heard our conversation with Kirsty Walk. She's an absolute legend and also responsible for my marriage, if Kirsty's still listening.

My now husband first messaged me 13 years ago because we'd both mentioned Kirsty, positively, of course, on our dating profiles. I want to see what you said. We're now happily married with two children. As it happened, my husband is one of the best men I know when it comes to sharing the mental load. Coming back to that discussion about non-promotable tasks, as it's called, and some people calling it office housework.

But let me tell you a story now. And we always like to be able to help shine a light with the work that's been done around certain women that you may not know anything about. An extraordinary American paediatrician that you may never have heard of, Helen Taussig. Her discoveries have saved the lives of children with heart defects and helped start modern heart surgery. As a patient advocate, she also gathered and published evidence linking the drug thalidomide to birth defects,

which contributed to strict US drug testing regulations being introduced, which remain the toughest in the world. A new book, A Heart of Fire, paints a portrait of her extraordinary life and her contribution to the world of medicine. Its author, Patricia Meisel, a several-time Pulitzer Prize nominee, joins me now live from Baltimore. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. It's a pleasure. Why Helen Taussig? How did you find yourself drawn to her and want to put this together, this incredible story?

Well, first of all, I've always been interested in women who make change in difficult circumstances. And she took a job, an impossible job, trying to care for children with fatal heart defects. And none of her male classmates wanted it. And I knew I had a story when I looked in her patient records and saw how hard she worked, and it read like a thriller. So I just, and for example, rheumatic fever, she tried alternate methods before antibiotics were available and actually saved patients. And that was the foreshadowing of her work to actually unravel what she called puzzles of the heart and come up with an idea to fix them. And this interest in the heart, we should also say she became deaf and that changed how she

monitored the heart, didn't it? It was traumatic. In 1930, just when she graduated medical school, just after, she became deaf and she was already involved in the heart in the clinic. And she had to learn to hear the sounds of the heart with her hands. Now there were other equipment. She didn't use something called a fluoroscope, but that was essentially how she felt the sounds on the child's chest. And she said it later on, it brought her closer to her patients and motivated her, improved the relationship with the patients. And it almost sounds like from what you've put together in this beautiful book, that it allowed her to think differently as well about perhaps persisting sometimes with things where she was told, you know, this was the only

way. That's right. She was always looking. She unraveled puzzles. That was her expertise in a way. She also had dyslexia. So as a child, she had to learn to read differently. And I think that really helped her. But she did look outside of the box and was constantly looking for different ways to help her patients, obviously. And the shunt, tell us about that. So, well, first of all, she noticed that children with heart defects, some of them lived longer than others. And their essential problem, she treated children called blue babies. And their essential problem was that they lacked enough blood to the lungs to pick up oxygen. And she realized that some lived longer than others. Well, it turned out that they had the ones that live longer had a spare part. So she reasoned and it was a it was a blood vessel taking blood to the lungs in an unusual way. So I

call it a spare part. And she reasoned that children who were dying could actually benefit from this. And she sold that idea to a surgeon. She said, could you develop a blood vessel? Could you move them around to bring more blood to the lungs? And it could not be proven in a laboratory, in an animal laboratory. This is important because this was the age of science. And that's what they did. They tested every idea and she sold it based on her observations of her patients. And it worked. Which is incredible. And, you know, she didn't stop there because she also collected a huge amount of information about the use of the drug thalidomide. And she campaigned against the use of it. And then this contributed, as I said, to strict US drug testing regulations being introduced. Tell

us a bit more. That's right. And that is, to me, even more important than her discovery of heart defects in children, how they worked. She used her fame from heart surgery to campaign for drug safety laws. And the way she did it was, once again, she heard it in a conversation in her own personal living room in Baltimore, that this was happening in Germany and England. And she went over there within weeks to investigate on her own, collected massive amounts of evidence, met the children and the mothers, held them in her arms and came back. And essentially, there were no thalidomide babies in the US at that time. There were only sample pills in doctor's offices, which she knew about. And that was the first thing she did. She came back to warn people and mostly doctors, you know, don't give

out those pills to women. And our government could not at that time, no power to stop any distribution of drugs at that time. So, and she campaigned literally, began meeting with doctors and then she went to the medical journals, but she also went to the public. She was all over the media. Within six months of this trip, we had a new drug safety law. So it was a political feat, but it was based on, once again, circumstantial evidence. Couldn't be proved in the lab until later. It actually changed. Drug testing changed as a result.

We tested different animals to find out which crossed the placenta and hurt the unborn. I mean, I'm just so struck she's doing this, you know, when women weren't the norm in the medical field, certainly, and certainly in public health like this and having this profile. And as you say, without hearing. That's right. She worked and actually she worked hard. She learned how to lip read and she also used assistive technology to her benefit. And she maneuvered around that. I mean, she had to figure out how to live her life, even one-on-one conversations with patients. It was quite, she made it work. She did small conversations. She didn't talk, she didn't like big groups. Yeah, well, I can understand that. And was she happy in her personal life? You know, she was. That's an important question. She was from Boston and she never expected to stay in Baltimore. But because of her fame, she realized that she needed to build her own home

and her life here. And she did. And it was a remarkable life. She had a very full life. She did not marry, but two thirds of women in her era who were doctors also did not marry. It was a choice. You couldn't do both. But she had a, her home actually became the center of, for doctors. And she would have parties on the lawn. She would have their children, their spouses. It was huge. And that's also where they developed the standards for what we now call pediatric cardiology. They would meet every year in the beginning before continuing education for

doctors. That's what she did on her lawn. It's a good use of a lawn. There you go. For those who are thinking, who is this? I didn't hear the name at the first. It's Helen Taussig. That's who we're talking about. The author that you're listening to, Patricia Meisel. Thank you very much. And the book is called A Heart of Fire, Helen Brooke Taussig's battle against heart defects, unsafe drugs and injustice in medicine. It's out now. Lovely to hear that story and the fruits of your work. Now, let's talk about work in a different sense and effort, because tonight marks the 70th BBC Annual Sports Personality of the Year Award. The past two years, it has been taken by women. And following Mary Earp's heroic efforts in goal at the World Cup for England earlier this year and Katerina Johnson-Thompson's goal at the Heptathlon World Championships, it could be three years in a row.

That would see them joining only 15 other women to have been awarded the prize one of whom i'm very happy to say i can speak to now lady mary peters who won sports personality of the year award in 1972 the same year she won gold in the pentathlon at the munich olympics age 33 and also working as a secretary good morning good morning because you had to have a job at the same time. Absolutely I worked full-time and I was happy just having sport as my hobby and lucky enough to win an Olympic gold medal which was quite rare for women in those days. Yeah I mean I love the way you say lucky you did have a lot of skill I presume

as well. Well I have put a seat at my track in Belfast in memory of my coach Buster McShane who I said made an average athlete into an Olympic champion so I didn't do it on my own in my own effort. No but you did also do it while being a secretary, I believe for someone in the sporting world. I'm sorry, I didn't get... Who were you working for as a secretary? Oh, it was my coach, because I had been a teacher of domestic science and the director of education didn't like me having so much time off to compete for my country. So I decided when I was selected for the Tokyo Olympics in 1964 to give up teaching for a while so that I could pursue my sport and enjoy it. And I never went back to it. There you go. And we're still seeing women having to work alongside because perhaps the sports that they're in aren't taking them seriously or able to pay them. Who did you receive your award from?

Oh, from Princess Royal because she had won it the previous year as European equestrian champion. I love that. She just obviously had to casually come back and deliver it to you. Was that a moment? What do you remember of that moment? Oh, well, I was very bold because I said, hasn't she kept it clean? And we've remained friends ever since because she is patron of my charity, the Mary Peters Trust, which supports young people in Northern Ireland to get them on the ladder of success for their futures.

Well, it is quite, I looked at the image of the two of you and it's it's a lovely it's a lovely sight and of it being handed on like that. Well she was very gracious and laughed with me. What was it like winning gold though? Oh it was amazing because I'd been in sport my first international was 1958 and this was 1972 so I had been working for many years to achieve the ultimate in sport. And in Tokyo, it was the first time that the pentathlon had been included in the programme. So this was the third opportunity in Munich. And of course, then following my success, they changed the event and it became the heptathlon. So there were two extra events. And I'm very lucky it was only five for me.

I have to say, when we hear about the 1972 Olympic Games, the mind goes to the tragedy following the deaths of the 11 members of the Israeli team. How did that affect you at the time? Well, unfortunately for me, I hadn't been aware of the enormity of the tragedy because my father, who lived in Australia, had turned up unexpectedly when I won my medal and wanted to spend time with me. And I had taken a girlfriend who was also on the team out to buy her wedding present because she was marrying a Swiss athlete. And we had seen that the village was surrounded by troops, but we weren't aware of why or how it was all happening. And so I'd been a bit sidelined and not realizing the enormity of the tragedy of so many deaths of the Israeli athletes and coaches.

So I've been back to Munich several times to pay my respects because I was living in the glory of my success and hadn't realised how many people had died. But we should also say, you know, having been living in Belfast through the very worst of the troubles and even getting caught, I believe, in the crossfire of a gunfight following your Olympic gold, you had a death threat made against you. And, you know, it's not comparing in any way, but there was a real threat at that time. And violence, I suppose, was in and out of your life. It was. And my dad wanted me to go back with him to Australia, but I definitely was going home to where I lived and worked and had all my friends.

And I never talked about it for many years because I didn't want people to have a bad image of Northern Ireland because they're the nicest, friendliest, amusing people that you could want to live with. And I have no regrets for going home. No, but I imagine in some sense it just must have been a frightening time. It was anxious, but I was an athlete. I hadn't any political views and I didn't take it very seriously, although others did. And I was accompanied home from Munich by detectives on the plane. And there was tight security with me for several months after I did arrive home.

But I'm glad I went home. I'm still there to say I'm happy. Yes. And, you know, you're a major part of the community and you've helped a lot of athletes, like the golfer Graham McDowell, boxer Carl Frampton. You've continued to have that support there. And I just wonder when we're thinking about the award this evening, 70 years of BBC Sports Personality of the Year, have you got a wager on who you're hoping for? Oh, well, I'd rather not say because...

Well, I can say that I love Katrina Johnson-Thompson and of course Rory McIlroy is from Northern Ireland and Mary Earp is another lady and there are a few ladies have received the award

and of course any one of them can win because it's by public vote and sometimes people say I wish Jones had won and I said did you vote and they say no and I say well if you don't vote you can't win Which is a fair point and they don't always think about that but it will be the moment for whomever it is as you've described

it goes by in a flash Oh absolutely but it's the most amazing experience when you hear your name called and you hold the trophy for a year and you get a duplicate to keep for life. So it's lovely. It is a rare honour to receive. Lady Mary Peters, lovely to speak to you on the 70th anniversary. You can watch BBC Sports Personality of the Year this evening at BBC One, seven o'clock.

And keeping with sport, Jessica Crichton will be here in the Women's Hour hot seat where she'll be speaking tomorrow to Kelly Simmons, who left the Football Association after 30 years, where most recently she was in charge of the women's professional game and her exit marks an end of an era for women's football with big changes afoot at the start of a new one. So that's all coming up here for a bit more of a sports fix and some insights tomorrow on Women's Hour from 10 o'clock. And that will be the last time I'll be speaking to you,

certainly today of the year in 2023. I'll be looking forward to speaking to you. Actually, I'll be straight back here, January the 2nd of 2024. So worry not. But will I have made those vodka tomatoes that Kirsty Warks told me? I think I will. And there's been some other messages with some other suggestions here. Brussels sprout kimchi, says Jules.

Gosh, right, when are we going to have to start working? And someone else on the vodka tomatoes Sarah in Italy good morning to you says get a syringe and inject vodka until they almost pop well I'll also get a shot glass and have a couple for myself how about that because I'm hosting all the best to you and yours that's all for today's Woman's Hour thank you so much for your time join us again for the next one to know what it means to be Roman, you need to look beyond the sweating gladiators. There are fresh stories to be told from scattered clues and new discoveries. I'm Mary Beard, and I'll be uncovering these stories for Being Roman, a new series for BBC Radio 4.

There's a young bride avenging the murder of her parents and an emperor flirting outrageously with his nervous teacher. Listen to Being Roman wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the bbc world service the con caitlyn's baby it's a long story settle in available now