Woman's Hour - Kristine Kujath Thorp

Episode Date: April 19, 2023

Kristine Kujath Thorp is the star of new ‘unromantic comedy’ Sick of Myself. The film follows the unhealthy and competitive relationship between bored waitress Signe and her boyfriend Thomas; both self-proclaimed narcissists obsessed with attention. When Thomas suddenly breaks through as a contemporary artist, Signe decides to do something drastic to attract sympathy and go viral. Kristine joins Nuala to talk about playing a true anti-hero. We talk to BBC presenter Yalda Hakim about how the UN might take the "heartbreaking" decision to pull out of Afghanistan if it cannot persuade the Taliban to let local women work for the organisation. In January the government announced that it would amend the Victims Bill currently going through parliament so that children born as a result of rape in England and Wales will be officially recognised as victims of crime. In a powerful new BBC documentary ‘Out of the Shadows: Born from Rape’, Sammy Woodhouse, the campaigner, and victim of the Rotherham grooming scandal, who was just 15 when she became pregnant hears for the first time from mothers as well as children born from rape, and she tells us why she is calling for more support for those affected. Sammy is joined by ‘Eva’, who tells her story. Have you been watching Race Across The World? The BBC 1 programme where travellers can choose any route they like - but no flights or phones are allowed. Now in it's third series those involved are travelling from West to East Canada - the second biggest country in the world. The partnerships that you see between the pairs taking part are just as compelling as the wonderful Canadian landscapes on display. Nuala talks to the only all female team taking part Cathie Rowe and Tricia Sail - two best friends, both in their late 40's who set out on a journey of a lifetime. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Steve Greenwood

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Are you a fan of race across the world? Well, if so, you may also be a fan of the female duo Cathy and Tricia making their way across Canada on this crazy, epic adventure. We're going to be speaking to them in just a moment. But I was wondering if they're inspiring you

perhaps to do something adventurous also with a best pal. Or maybe you have already. Where? When? How? I want to hear all about it. You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Text charged at your standard message rate.

Or on social media at BBC Woman's Hour is one way to get in touch or you can email us through our website. And instead, if you want to tell us the story for a voice note or WhatsApp message, that's 03700 100 444. We also have the actor, Kristina Kujatorp. She's the star of the Norwegian unromantic comedy, Sick of Myself.

Now, I jumped more than a few times when I was watching it. We'll tell you more about the black humour of that new film also this hour. And today, the United Nations says it is ready to withdraw from Afghanistan if the Taliban will not let local women work for the organisation. We'll have the BBC's Yalda Hakim with us to discuss what this latest restriction means for the country's women and girls. And we will also bring you today

deeply moving stories from two women who are part of a documentary that's now on the BBC iPlayer about people born from rape. They want to bring their stories to the public to aid understanding and also explain the reasons why those children will soon be recognised as victims of crime. So that's all coming up. But let me begin with Race Across the World.

If you haven't watched it, it's the BBC One programme where travellers have to make it to a destination, choosing any route they like, but no flights or no phones are allowed. It's in its third series and they're travelling, the people who are involved, from west to east Canada. And that is no mean feat because it is the second biggest country in the world. There's the factoid. The partnerships between these pairs taking part, they're just as compelling as those wonderful Canadian landscapes that we also see. And I'm delighted to say we're joined by one of the pairs now, the only all-female team for this series, Cathy Rowe and Tricia Sale, best friends, both in their late 40s, who have set out on the journey of a lifetime. Welcome to both of you.

Hi, good morning. Thank you for having us. Great to have you with us. Now, you're not in Canada. This was filmed a while ago. You are back in the UK, but there are a few episodes left. And, you know, one of the first things

when I put up on social media that you were coming on, people were like, no spoilers, please. So we won't go there. But I want to go back to the initial idea. Tricia, I understand it was you that you wanted to take part in the show. Yes. So I watched series one and two and absolutely loved it.

Fell in love with the show. At the end of series two, it said, if you want to apply, apply now on this website. So, yeah, I did. who it said if you want to apply apply now on this website so yeah i did um for me the reason i applied is because i'm losing my losing my eyesight um and eventually i will have no sight so um i kind of want to get all those experiences before i lose my sight um and the only person i would never do it with is kathy um we are are going to grow old disgracefully together. And I know that I'll be able to say, well, you remember the colour of that, that, that?

And I'll be like, yeah, she's like that. So that's the reason that I wanted to do it. And yeah, so Cathy didn't really know much about the series until we applied. But now she knows it intimately. Cathy, when Tricia came to you, I mean, what was your first reaction? Talk me through that discussion,

how you bring it up. Would you like to take part in this crazy TV show? Well, as Tricia just mentioned, I hadn't seen either of the previous two series, but Tricia and I have done many kind of challenges before so I was

used to her saying oh should we do this or shall we do that and normally I would just say yeah that sounds like really good fun and sort of worry about the implications of it afterwards so when she said to me do you fancy this my immediate reaction was was, yeah, that sounds amazing. Let's do it. And to be honest, at that point, neither of us had any expectation that we would be selected to do it. And, you know, that going on a TV program just doesn't happen normally. I thought I was fairly safe in saying, yeah, let's go for it. Oh, yeah. I know that when you say something and then, you know, you're thinking it may not happen. But what did you have to do, Tricia, to apply? What was the winning thing, do you think?

Was it both of you that put the application in? How does it work? There's lots of different aspects of the application. The first bit was that we had to do a video of why we wanted to do it. And it was literally a one minute video. Myself and Kathy did it separately because she's in Wales and I'm down in Devon. So I just think our relationship that we've got together kind of got us through it. You know, I always say family is, sorry, friendship is the family that you choose. And yeah, you can see our relationship on screen. And I think that's just what showed through through the application. I have a lot of questions about the relationship as well.

But what about when it came through? They're like yeah we you've been selected that was really strange actually because Trish obviously we made the application back in 2019 and then we had the pandemic so the very first time that Trish and I were actually together following that we'd obviously done video calls but the first time that Trisha and I were actually together following that we'd obviously done video calls but the first time we were actually together Trisha had a phone call and it was from one of the casting team and it was just bizarre it was almost as if it was meant to be because we hadn't been together for sort of 18 months because of the virus. And then suddenly she gets this call. So it was, I think both of us kind of sat down in complete disbelief,

thinking, wow, this is just amazing that they phoned on the day where we're actually sat down together for the first time in 18 months. And then the feelings about taking on this massive challenge, obviously in full view of so many people as you're going to be on television? It was excitement, firstly, then the nerves kicked in. I do suffer from anxiety because of my eyesight. And so, yeah, the nerves kind of really got to me. But because we didn't know where we were going until the day before we went, we couldn't plan anything. We couldn't be excited about it.

We couldn't be nervous about it. We just, it was a bit of a numb feeling, to be fair, until we got over there. And then it was like like we're actually doing this we're actually on this race this amazing journey um so yeah and we still even now pinch ourselves to think we've actually done this we we're on this tv program um when you're doing the race when when we were actually out there um it was a race. It wasn't a TV show. But now it's a TV show and it's a very odd feeling,

especially when you see yourself on TV. It's a bit unnerving. Yeah, how did you find that, Cathy, watching yourself back on TV and some of those probably very intense moments? Yeah, it is very alien to us because it's it's not an environment that we're used to um and you kind of you're over critical I think of of how you look how you sound but I think I just keep coming back to the feeling that I've done this incredible thing with my best friend. And no matter anything else, we've had that experience. And I was very, very lucky and privileged to have it. So it is weird to see yourself on television.

But also seeing it now, you can see what the other teams were doing, which we didn't know at the time. And also they managed to pick up things that Trish and I didn't realise had happened or that we'd said. And that just has us collapsing in groups of people, which is a common occurrence. It's got to be one for the ages. You know, I want to play a little bit, actually, because there was a moment a few episodes ago. Yes. Spoiler, if you haven't watched any the past few weeks where you had to get onto a cable car and it was a final step before reaching a checkpoint. Of course, as usual with the programme, you don't know whether you're first or last or somewhere in between. And this was a big fear. I know, for you, Tricia.

Cathy was helping you get through it. Let's listen to a clip from that cable car moment and you also finding out where you'd come in the race. We come all this way and I can't, I can't. You're going to be fine. Look at me. Look at me. I believe in you. I do. I just don't believe can't. You're going to be fine. Look at me, look at me. I believe in you. I don't.

You just don't believe in me. No. I have faith in you. You can do this. We're just going to concentrate on the bear, all right? Don't look at the floor. Just looking at the bear. Okay.

Right, here. Right. Oh, my God. Hand on the bed. Sweaty palm for menopausal women, all right? Okay, come on. Please, please. I don't need any of this.

Oh, my God, you're so... Oh, my God. Cue uplifting music. Okay, there's so many things that are great about that. I want to tell our listeners a few things if they haven't seen it. The bear isn't a real bear. It's like a statue that's by the logbook. As you look at the logbook, you realise that you are the first to arrive.

Sweaty palm for the menopausal women. Maybe one of the greatest lines in reality TV. Tricia, tell me a little bit about hearing that again, because I'm watching your face, but relate to our listeners how it felt. Every time I hear that clip or see that clip,

I go back to trying to get onto that cable car. It's one of my worst fears. And if I could have walked up that hill, I would have. But we didn't know where we were in the race. So it was kind of we had to get on it. We were told that it takes four hours to get up that mountain or eight minutes in a cable car.

So even as cable car, it had to be. But without Cathy, I don't think I would have got on it. But I did conquer my fear that day. But, yeah, I did cry and cry and scream. And I think at one point I said to Kathy, I don't want to die. She was like, no, that's fine. You're not going to die. I was like, if I'm going to die, can I die with you?

She's like, yeah, that's fine. So Kathy, talk me through. I mean, is it that you know Tricia so well that you felt you'd be able to help her through that, which might have, which did seem insurmountable to Tricia? I knew immediately that it was a cable car. I could see it. And I just thought, oh, my God, how am I going to get her up this thing? I knew that Tricia is absolutely petrified of heights and it was a completely overwhelming feeling for her so I just had to keep talking to her because I had to get her on that cable car we had no idea where we were in the race we'd had a particularly difficult leg where we would we had had to rely on ride share pretty much all the way to um to Banff so we really thought that we'd lost a lot of time so she was going on that cable car whether she

wanted to or not so but there was there I just had to to sort of uh just sort of reassure her really that it was going to be okay. And she just held on to me. I tried not to let her see it before we got there. But yeah, it was tough. It was really difficult for her. And I'm so proud of the way that she did it, even though it went against every single fiber in her body.

She did it and she got to the top. And I pick out that moment, Cathy and Tricia, because I feel it's so illustrative of your friendship. You're in your late 40s now. Where did this friendship start? Tell me a little bit about, you know, how it goes, where it started to get to that moment on the cable car and reaching the top

of the mountain, Tricia? Well, Tricia and I met on my first day at a school in Aberystwyth when I was 13. And I was really nervous because I'd been bullied in my previous school and I had no idea what I was walking into and Trish was just this amazing free spirit bit of a rebel um loved to laugh um and for me that was the complete opposite to me so I was like a moth to a flame to her I think um and we just developed this friendship over our teen teenage years and I think those years are are really influential in how you develop them as an adult and you live your whole life through your teenage years and we lost touch for a while in those days where you didn't have mobile phones and there was no social media but we got back in touch about 15 years ago and we were determined then not to lose touch ever again. And I've got to know Trish really, really well, instinctively well, I think over the past few years.

Maybe a bit as well. I knew having done various different challenges with her, what her strengths and weaknesses were. She knows exactly what my strengths and weaknesses are. So, yeah, we got to know exactly how far we could push each other. And we used all of that knowledge on this race. So this all, when I was watching it as well, you know, it seems so,

such a supportive friendship and knowing each other really well, Tricia. But surely there must have been like over your friendship or indeed during the race, flaming rows, disagreements,

silent treatment. You're just going to have to watch and find out. But getting back to your friendship, I think it's lovely the way Cathy has described it there. What does this friendship mean for you? And I know you've talked about there as well. You've discovered that your sight is deteriorating

and I'm really sorry for you for that. And this is part of what the impetus was in taking part in this particular challenge but I'd be curious how you would describe the friendship. She's like my sister, she instinctively knows what and if i need anything and vice versa um i think at one point you saw um kathy kind of have a bit of a anxiety attack um and i instinctively needed knew that she needed two minutes and then just to sit quietly um so you kind of see that develop as well on the race itself um but she is she's you know she is my rock um she knows myself and my husband and and i know her and her family really well and we are like extended family to each other um and we all support each other um through difficult times and

when i started losing my sight um i obviously had some help from RNIB. But, you know, Cathy was there throughout the whole thing, as well as my husband. And she's always been there to support and vice versa. You know, she is my rock and hopefully I'm her rock too. Cathy? Absolutely. Absolutely. Do you have another challenge planned? Yes, we potentially do. There's always something on the horizon.

So when we did get back from Canada, we walked up Machu Picchu on the Inca Trail. And potentially in October, we're going to be walking on the Great Wall of China. So yeah. I just think those ideas out there are going to be inspiring our listeners this morning maybe that are sitting on the sofa listening. Wonderful to have both of you on. I do want to let people know Race Across the World is on BBC One tonight at 9pm and

of course you can watch all the previous episodes on iPlayer. Lovely speaking to both of you. A couple of listeners coming in. Let me see. Good morning. I left Kathmandu on Monday evening after having spent a month in Pokhara in Nepal doing voluntary work for a company called GVI. I'm 72. And although I won't do something as amazing as that again, I'm very pleased to have done it.

Well done, Maureen, getting in touch. Another one. Just all I see is London to Dubrovnik as their name. Hi, just listening to your item about the race. We have just completed our race around Europe, inspired by the show. Two families raced from London to Dubrovnik. No flying, limited budget and phone use and no pre-booking. It was the most fun.

I love that. I love that. Keep them coming. 84844. Love to the most fun. I love that. I love that. Keep them coming. 84844. Love to hear from you on Woman's Hour. Now, in January, the government announced that it would amend the Victims' Bill, currently going through

Parliament, so that children born as a result of rape in England and Wales will be officially recognised as victims of crime. It's estimated that thousands of children are conceived by rape each year, but very few people talk about it. There's a powerful new BBC documentary, it's called Out of the Shadows, Born from Rape,

and Sammy Woodhouse, the campaigner and also victim of the Rotherham grooming scandal, was just 15 when she became pregnant. Sammy in the documentary hears from mothers who were raped as well as the children conceived from that rape. Sammy tells us why she's calling for more support for those affected and she's also joined by a woman who we are calling Eva, who also tells us her story.

I began by asking Sammy why she wants to be part of this BBC documentary. When I was approached by the BBC, I was just so pleased that someone was finally going to really talk about this. It's affected me and my son in so many ways, especially my son. And I just jumped at the chance. You know, for me, it was just a yes, let's do this. And it's a conversation that is long overdue. It was something I think I had never thought about. And there might be a lot of my listeners that are the same as well. So that's what you're doing, raising awareness. You immediately have mentioned your son, who you told that he was born from rape

when he was 12. Was that something you always intended to do? Or did you think, I need to tell him at a certain age? No, when my son was born born I didn't actually recognize that what had happened to me as a child was abuse um so it wasn't until my son was about 12 when I actually started to come to terms with I was you know abused and exploited and I came forward not only to authorities but to the media um so it kind of just got to the point where I had to tell my son and he knew this man is dad because he'd already previously had some contact with him so it was a case of what do I tell him how do I tell him um I wasn't really sure how to go about things but in the end I decided to just be honest with him and try and tell him just as much,

you know, kind of age appropriate as I could. But that must be so difficult because I don't think you have a precedent to go on, really. There's nobody showing you how you do that, which we do have with other out of the ordinary circumstances, for example. Yeah, and for someone that's a victim of abuse and exploitation, I can walk into any service within our country,

I'm recognised as a victim, there's support in place, there's funding in place, I'm recognised as, you know, someone within our laws. As a mother and child going through this, we wasn't. There was no support for me as a mum on how to tell him, also how to help him get through this. But also as a mum on the legal side to this, I had no idea at the time that this man that abused and exploited me could take me through the family courts and have access or even apply for custody for my child, which a lot of mums don't know that and you know some of the professionals that I was working with very openly admitted and said Sammy we don't know how to deal with this subject. Now for my son he had to deal with his mum had just disclosed to him

that she'd been abused and exploited. The person he knew his dad was a person that committed it and was under investigation and then of course there was the media attention around that and even though we was anonymous we were so well known within our community because when I was being abused it wasn't a secret and so of course we had to deal with a backlash from the community as well. So for a 12 year old boy with no support, you know, it was heartbreaking. He just had so much to deal with. And when I took part in the documentary, it was so important for me to be able to meet other people that had gone through it like he had so I could you know have a better understanding and be able to help support him better as a mum. Yes and I've so many questions just on what you've

said so far Sammy I suppose the first one for your son I mean how is he doing now if it's okay to ask that and also I'm wondering how he feels about you doing this documentary. He said he's proud of me for doing the documentary. So it's really important for me, you know, to have his support in this. And it's something he feels really passionate about because he even went as far as contacting MPs himself and said, you know, this is a little bit about what I've been through. Can you please make sure it's better for other people? So that was really important for me. And he feels like he's in a really good place in his life at the moment but of course there's a lot of things that me and my son um have to work on you know as a family um and I think that's going to take time and I think we need some help and support in doing that.

How old is he now if I might ask? He's 21. Okay just to give our listeners an idea of how long your son has been dealing with this and the other part I wanted to go back to Sammy is that I said rape but you said abuse and I know your understanding of what happened to you changed over time but you decide to use that term instead of rape why in my circumstances um i wasn't raped on just one occasion i was abused mentally physically and sexually for two years um so that was quite a long period of time so for me i think that kind of just fits more with my circumstances. As for example, some people that I've spoke to,

their mother, you know, for example, could have been walking down the street, a stranger walked up to them, raped them, and that's how she became pregnant. So for me, it's just about kind of being able to explain things better to my son, if that makes sense. Yes, it does. I know you said, Sammy, you'd say in the documentary and also now that, you know, you wanted to meet other people that had gone through experiences like you

had or your son. What was it like when you began to hear these stories from people? It was heartbreaking, you know, to know that stories from people it was heartbreaking um you know to know that so many people around the country and not just around the country you know this is happening around the world but to know that so many people are just in so much pain and so alone um but it was it was nice for me to meet those people because my feeling of loneliness started to disappear. And even though I think I always knew there were other people out there like me and my son, you just feel so lonely and you feel like you're going through it all on your own. So, for example, when I met Mandy, she was the first one that we really went into detail of.

And I always get so emotional when when I talk to Mandy because you know everybody's story is so heartbreaking but for people like Mandy this is the first time that they have ever spoken out about this. Sometimes Sammy when people have been hiding something for a long time and then they speak out about it sometimes the reaction is much more positive than they expect. But I suppose with this one, it's so taboo that maybe people's reaction can still be, they can be shocked, for example, or maybe not react in the way that you want them to. Yeah, I think there has been people that have been very negative towards my son.

And for me, I just don't know how people can be so nasty towards people that have been very negative towards my son and for me I just don't know how people can be so nasty towards people that have you know they haven't asked to be born in this way they're they're human beings they're people they're beautiful people um and unfortunately you do get people that are negative towards them and towards mums as well but I think it's so important that we send out that message to people um that you know we're here and we just you know want to be recognized and supported and for me if when this documentary goes out if there's just one person watching this that says you know I'm like that and I don't feel alone anymore then I think we've done a job well done. Let me bring in Eva who featured in the documentary you're very welcome to Woman's Hour Eva now you had been adopted but decided to

actively look for your birth family when you were 18 can you tell our listeners what you discovered? Yeah I decided on my 18th birthday that I was going to trace my birth mother. It took me about eight months to find her. And the story that I was met with was completely different to what I'd been led to believe. There wasn't an awful lot of information on my adoption papers. And the social worker at the time rang me and she said, father is her father go home and deal with it so it meant that it was child sexual abuse um that your mother had uh suffered from her father um that resulted in your birth yes it was a huge shock um it wasn't something that had crossed my mind never in a million years had I expected

to find out something like that I'd expected it to be experimental teenagers together and to find out that it was something as horrific as that just completely blew my mind There's so much about this as well, Eva. First, that social worker telling you to deal with it. Yes, she, I think, was possibly out of her depth.

But then what was the impact that you had? Because it was a number of years ago, just for our listeners, when you found that out. It was a strange thing to deal with. The social worker went to meet her and she came back to see me and said that my mother had said that she thought I wouldn't want to see her and that I would blame her because of what had happened to her. And that never crossed my mind. It never even occurred to me that it would be her fault

because she had no say in it. She was a child. So did you meet your mother, your birth mother? Yes I did, I've met her twice. How was it? Emotional, odd. I remember a friend who was there to support me saying that it was clearly obvious that we were related from behind because we walked in the same way. We decided not to continue with contact, we're both two alike I think and I look very much like my birth father. And I think it was very difficult for her to deal with that. Too many memories.

And what about you dealing with that, knowing now that you look like your birth father? Because I'm sure for many adopted children, you know, you're looking at your physical characteristics and figuring out your place in the world. I've had a lot of therapy over the years. I remember when I first told my GP, he just looked at me with complete miscomprehension and I sat at his desk and drew him a family tree

so he was able to understand. I've had a lot of therapy over the years. A lot of therapists haven't been able to understand it. I'm very lucky at the moment that the therapist that I'm working with has got their head around it and is very good at dealing with it and with helping me work through the difficulties. You're obviously very brave because you also went to reach out to your birth father who would also be your grandfather who had abused your mother. Can you tell us about that? I rang him. I wanted to know from him that he was who I thought he was so that I wasn't barking up the wrong tree and that if if he wasn't then I could look elsewhere and look for my birth father which is what I wanted to do

and there was also this slim hope that the social worker was wrong yes and I asked him if he was who I thought he was. And he said, yes, I am. And I said, do you regret doing it? And he said, no, I don't. And I said, would you do it again? He said, yes, I would. He was quite blasé about it. He had clearly no regrets, clearly wasn't at all bothered by what he'd done he didn't think there was anything wrong with it he gave me the answer that i wanted he asked if i was shocked

and i said no i wasn't um i was very shocked but i wasn't going to give him the satisfaction of that right um and i immediately went to the police and tell us about that aspect i walked into my local police station and said to them i'd like to report a rape and i explained the situation and the policeman looked at me and he said um we need evidence and i said i'm standing in front of you i'm physical evidence of what happened and he said it's not good enough we're not interested it's so upsetting um going back to sammy ev, because Sammy is really working to try and get children born as a result of rape to be officially recognised as victims of crime. The government has announced in January that it does plan to amend the Victims' Bill that's going through Parliament that would allow those born in such circumstances in England and Wales to be treated as victims in their own right.

Sammy, first to you, what difference do you think that would make particularly for somebody like eva let's say or your son i think it'll make a big difference um and of course i welcome the news because people like here in my son they have no voice in anything they have no voice in our laws they have no voice in our support systems um and i myself, when I originally went to the police, they refused DNA from my son as well, and I've spoken to other people where DNA has been refused. So I'm hoping that this is going to bring change to that. However, it's not enough. What needs to be done is all statutory services in our country need to put the proper support in place um so people can access that support and i think it should also um be seen as um a hate crime which

is something else i'm asking for i'm also asking for the criminal injuries compensation scheme to recognise children as victims. So there's a lot of work to be done. And, you know, as someone that assists in training, sharing my experiences throughout the country, this is something I've been speaking to professionals about. And, you know, again, they've been very honest and said, well, we've not received any training around this. So how can we deliver support? So I'm trying to enroll that out throughout the country, which I've been speaking to government about this for years now. So I've just decided, you know what,

I'm going to go and do it myself. But there's a lot of work to be done, but of course I welcome it. And you do in the documentary, I should let people know, go to Rwanda as well following the Rwandan genocide they do have specialist counselling support

for victims of rape and it's very moving to see you interact with people, of course a different country, a different time but that has gone through in a way some things that are similar to you Sammy back to you Eva though because a lot of this is about

revealing what people have been through. How easy, Eva, or difficult has it been for you to tell people about your background? And how do you even decide that that person is trustworthy enough to share that information with? I think I've got to the point now where it's just me.

It's part of me and it's nothing to be ashamed of. The last six months I've not been well and I've been in and out of hospital. And every doctor I meet asks me the family history. And of course I don't have much family history so I have to sit and explain to every doctor that I'm the result of rape and this is what happened and this is who my father is and this is how the family dynamic works and I met with a mixture of pity a mixture of complete incredulation and just complete bewilderment, really. And it's rare that I meet someone who gets it straight off.

And I have to say to them, I'll be sitting in A&E and I have to say to them, just take your time, take a few minutes just to let it sink in. So you're educating people, basically. Yes. Not in the way I would like at the moment, but yes. Yeah. That's what I'm kind of getting from it.

You have patience with them. You try and explain it. You give them time to try and process what it is you've told them. Yes. And how have people reacted when they've perhaps got through that initial processing or initial bewilderment as it might be in some cases depends who you're talking to um therapists and doctors are very sort of worldly wise i think and they they tend to sort of just take it in the stride. If you're telling someone else, a friend, for example, pity features a lot. And I don't want to be putted.

I was about to say, I put a bet that's not what you want. No, no, not at all. It's there. It's part of me. It's part of my history. It makes me who I am today in the same way that my adoptive parents make me who I am today and you just learn to live with it. Sammy I understand that you met with the Home Secretary what happened? Well I discussed with her as much as I possibly could about different things but this is definitely something that I wanted to raise with her and I did and I've also sent a letter to her and other MPs as well since meeting her just a couple of weeks ago but again I just expressed that you

know that support is needed and they need to really start and work around this now. Do you feel you were heard? I'm very used to meeting with politicians. It usually takes more than just one conversation, which for me, this documentary and the timing fits really perfectly. You know, we've got the Ministry of Justice announcing on the Victims' Bill that it will become law, the meeting with the Home Secretary, and now this. And I have told her to look out for the documentary because I think it's really important that every single politician

watches this and gets a better understanding because this isn't going away. That was Sammy Woodhouse with the woman we're calling Eva, whose birth father actually has since died. You can watch the BBC 100, a woman film, which is called Out of the Shadows, Born from Rape, on the BBC iPlayer now. And if you have been affected by any of the issues

that are in the documentary that we've been speaking about, you can find information and support on the Woman's Hour website. Now, we were speaking a little bit earlier about adventures, perhaps, that you have taken with your best pal, challenges, 84844 is the text number, and some of you have been getting in touch.

Let me read this one. Let me see. I don't know the name, but it says myself, whoever myself is. And my wonderful friend Nicola have just come back from travelling around Vietnam for our 50th birthdays.

She lives in Australia and we've been planning this trip for years. Travelling with a friend at this age is incredibly special and gives you a new zest for life.

Credit to her as well as we went on a cable car despite her fear of heights like Tricia we were hearing about. Women's friendship is a power that can be embraced in so many ways. Keep them coming, 84844. Now, I want to turn to the woman opposite me, Christina Kujat-Torp. She is the star of a new unromantic comedy called Sick of Myself.

The Norwegian film follows the unhealthy and very competitive relationship between the bored waitress, Signe, and her boyfriend Thomas. They proclaim themselves narcissists, obsessed with attention. And Thomas then breaks through as a contemporary artist but Signe decides to do something

drastic to try and attract sympathy and go viral. Christine, good to have you in studio with us. Glad to be here. You're so welcome. So this is an anti-hero, if ever there was one. When I was first watching it, I was like, hang on, where is this going? And then you realise it is darkly comic. The whole thing is a sarcastic send up of so many themes, I suppose, of modern life. But tell me about Signe, Christina. Well, Signe is, she's a very crazy woman. And as you said, she's very narcissistic. She doesn't

see herself as a narcissist. She doesn't want to be one, but she obviously is and um yeah she has this huge uh need for attention and she wants to be someone she wants to be something or she wants to be seen and she has this really um yeah she i think she's mixed up attention for love i think think she, yeah, that she got those two mixed up. And I think that's something that's very common in our society today and in our culture that we're sort of craving attention and empathy and that we're, yeah, with all the likes on Instagram and to sort of be someone and be something great or be seen. Be seen.

Yeah. And in this particular film, she has a boyfriend that's the same. Yeah. Yeah, he's equally as bad. I found him so difficult to watch. Yeah. I'm glad you said that because I think there's, I think it's probably

because she's a female antihero. We're not that used to watching that in movies. And a lot of people say that they hate her so much and they don't react as much to the boyfriend. Oh, for me,

it was much more the boyfriend. Oh, I'm really glad. I'm so curious what I listen I mean I hated I hated the way he sat yeah I spoke I hated what he wore um you know and there's this constant push pull between them for who is going to be the most famous I suppose whether in their small circle or in the larger world. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they have this constant

war in between them or game almost. I think they see it more as a game than... I mean, it's really, really toxic game, but yeah. A dangerous game. Very dangerous. So she wants sympathy, not just from her inner circle, as I mentioned, but from strangers as well.

There is a scene in where her face that has become disfigured because of some of her actions is on the front cover of a newspaper. And she stands next to the paper stand on the street, hoping people will recognise her, taking photographs of her picture, you know, putting it on more newsstands than would even be possible, basically every newsstand to have her face on it. What do you think the film is trying to say about that fame, that kind of social media fame? Well, I think it's a comment on our culture today and our obsession with fame and being seen and that we're living in a society where it's not, you don't have to be really good at something or you don't have to be a hero or a really great scientist to be well known and I mean people sometimes it feels like you just have to do something crazy or something really

provocative and to be known and that people sort of has that as a goal, that they don't care anymore that they're loved or that they're good human beings. But as long as they're being, or as long as they get the attention they want. As long as they're on the front cover of the magazine. She takes illegal medication that creates her skin to disfigure and that gets her the attention. So there's also really this theme of victimhood

because she wants people to feel sorry for her, to give her the attention, the love, I suppose, as you would see it perhaps translated from. Yeah, I think, I mean, Signe is, I mean, all of her friends and her boyfriend and she's on top of the Maltz love pyramid. She has nothing to, she has no struggles. She has nothing to sort of fight for. So she has to, or in her own head, she has to like create these struggles or create some sort of meaning with her life because she doesn't have that dream of becoming the best lawyer or whatever.

So I think it's like she's really trying to find a meaning with her life and she just chooses the most stupid way of doing it, which is by becoming ill, really, in very broad terms. But I should also let our listeners know, I mean, I was saying that I jumped so many times watching it and it's in Norwegian with subtitles. So I was kind of sitting beside my husband. I keep going, ah, oh, because parts of it are so shocking,

horrifying at times, but very, very funny. You spend part of it with a mask on your face that is somewhat terrifying. What was it like to, I don't know, play those scenes, particularly some of them that are somewhat gruesome? Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of like body horror elements in this film. And I think I'm glad you laughed because and that's also okay. I think people have a lot of different reactions to the films to the film because they don't feel that they're allowed to laugh at some parts of it. But yeah, for me, I wonder what that says, though, that they're not allowed laugh at it because. Yeah, I think that's really interesting as well,

because I think they also feel bad for her. And I think the film, or that's what I've heard from the audience, is that when they leave the cinema, there's a lot of conflicting feelings. They say that they had a great time watching it and that it was very entertaining, but at the same time, they have this really shitty feeling uh and there's been so many people and i don't know just say with that word it's uh if any of our listeners are offended by that particular word i'll take it back that's okay that's no problem um but that they feel very conflicted or that they feel bad for her yeah yeah absolutely and and i think it's really interesting as an audience watching this. And if you have all of those conflicting feelings, trying to figure out why you feel the fantasy of what she wants her life to be. I mean, even fantasizing about her funeral, for example,

at one point. And I found myself, I was like, oh, is this really happening or is it not? And I found that really interesting that we were kind of brought along with her conflict, really, of what her life is or who she is or is she a good person or not? Yeah, that was a huge struggle for me while developing the character as well, because she's constantly acting a character in her own life and she's constantly manipulating and she's constantly creating this persona. And I also think that she herself loses track of what is real and what is not real. And for me as an actress, I also lost track of what was real and what was not real. And I remember being on set doing a scene and being completely sure of her speaking the truth. And when I watched the film, I was absolutely sure that she was lying.

So it was, yeah, it's very... How interesting. I loved it, I have to say. Sick of Myself does come out in cinemas this Friday, the 21st of April. Christina Kuya Torp is the star. Thanks for joining us on Women's Hour. Thanks for having me.

Now, I want to turn to the United Nations next. The UN has said it's ready to take the heartbreaking decision to pull out of Afghanistan if it cannot persuade the Taliban to let local women work for the organisation. The head of the UN Development Programme said that officials have spent months negotiating with leaders of the Taliban

in that hope of them changing their position. It comes as two- thirds of the population, so 28 million people, are estimated to be in need of humanitarian assistance in 2023, with women and girls seen as the most vulnerable to any aid reductions. Yalda Hakeem, my colleague, the BBC News TV presenter, is with me on the line. Great to have you back with us, Yalda. Talk us through a little bit what this potential news means, because they haven't left, but they say they are ready to go.

Well, it's devastating news, Nuala, because, of course, Afghanistan now is completely reliant on aid to survive. We have millions of children on the brink of starvation. You just gave some of those figures. And so when you have a moment to pause and think about the fact that even before the Taliban takeover, when the international community was engaged with Afghanistan, it was aid reliant.

Now, it is increasingly an isolated country. The international community doesn't want to deal with Afghanistan. And I have been inside hospitals across the country from Kandahar to Herat to the north of the country and in Kabul, where I have seen emanciated babies who are three, four years old and are weighing the same as a child that might be a year old. And they're lucky to survive. Many of them die. And this could become the fate of the country if the UN withdraws. But the UN is saying that for as long as women cannot work alongside us, for as long as women cannot work with international NGOs to deliver that much needed aid to some of the most remote parts of the country, we cannot operate in the country.

It goes against our ethos. It goes against the ethos of all the various international NGOs that operate in the country. And why is that important? That is important because women in a conservative society want to be assisted by women areas, if that's correct, to some sectors, perhaps in health or education? They can work in health. The health ministry made that very clear from the outset that we need female doctors, for example, in these hospitals to operate and to function. But of course, I've spoken to a number of junior doctors, for example, who might have been in the last year of university trying to do, you know, practicals at various different clinics and hospitals. And because they've been banned from university, they can't go back to the clinics. There's also been a mass exodus of female health workers and doctors from the country because they feel under pressure, they feel ostracized, they feel targeted. So while there are some sectors, very small sectors, that are allowing women to operate and function, on the whole, it is increasingly a problem. And with a country that is on the brink of starvation, things could go from bad to worse. And could the UN issuing this potential change pressurise the Taliban perhaps to change their opinion?

We've seen this movie before, Nuala. In the 1990s, the Taliban had the same edict in place and the UN were forced out of the country. It wasn't for very long, just a few months, because, again, Afghanistan really struggled and suffered, being isolated, being locked out from the rest of the international community. Millions of people were held hostage. And we're looking at the same situation today,

where 40 million people have been held hostage as a result of these policies in the international community, making it clear that unless their conditions are met, unless women and girls are not allowed to function in society, they are not willing to work alongside the Taliban. The Taliban have said this is an internal issue, this is an internal matter, it is our custom,

it is our culture, these are our rules. But many of the women I've spoken to in the country say that we are being used as bargaining chips by the Taliban because they know this is a sensitive issue for the international community, women and girls being pushed out of the public eye. So the Taliban use this, politicize the situation of women and girls to get what they want. And what they want is international recognition. Right. So this is such a tricky political tightrope for any politician to walk. Indeed. And, you know, Nuala, I was just in Afghanistan a couple of months ago, and I have spoken to various leaders within the Taliban who don't agree with these policies,

who understand the risks of becoming an isolated, rogue nation. They have been here before themselves. This is how we got to where we are with the international community invading Afghanistan and taking control of the country and remaining there for 20 years. They have seen this played out. Certainly some of the younger members of the movement have travelled, have lived in places like Qatar and the United Arab Emirates

for a long time. They've been educated in places like Pakistan. So those who are within the movement who have had some exposure to the international community and understand the importance of international relations realize that this is sinking their country. It's the more hard line elements and those who sort of are a faction of the Taliban, including the Emir, the Supreme Leader, who believe this is the right path to go down. And for the last year and a half, for the last 19 or 20 months since the Taliban takeover, we've seen these restrictions tighten. Right. And do we have any idea, just in our last few seconds, Yalda, about when the UN will make a final decision?

We've spoken, the BBC has spoken to Amina Mohamed, the Deputy Secretary General of the United Nations, who has said that we've never said that the Taliban, you know, we're in discussions about recognition with the Taliban. We've always said that it needs to be principled recognition based on conditions and our conditions are not being met. They are the Taliban are about. We understand to meet. There are reports of them planning on having some kind of envoy, a delegation speak to the U.N. secretary general.

So I think the things are being ramped up. The UN has said this. They've laid it out there. It's now up to the Taliban. The ball is in their court. Thank you so much, the BBC's Yalda Hakim. Tomorrow, Anita will be joined in studio by author Liv Little, founder and former editor of Galdem,

the award-winning online and print magazine for women and non-binary people of colour. Do join her for that. And thanks for your messages. Here's one. When I finished breastfeeding my son at two years of age, my best friend and I went to a remote island and hiked around it, sleeping in caves and swimming in the sea. The freedom and joy was the release I needed to carry on being the best mother I could be. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. What happens when a life coach takes over your life? For the last 18 months, I've been investigating claims that a UK mentoring company is actually a cult.

What we're doing is helping human beings actually gain control of themselves, not for us to gain control of you. I don't know who I am anymore, bro. Absolutely no idea. The only money he had to give them was his house. Controlling its members. It was more about apportioning blame to my parents. These toxic groups called families. Intimidating critics. When I'd ask questions. They said, if you leave and you turn against us, we have all those personal recordings of yours. We'll come for you next. How do you feel, Paul, about the fact that so many people think you're running a cult? We're not running a cult.

Because they don't know what a cult is. They're slewing us. They're smearing us. I'm Katrin Nye, and from BBC Radio 4, this is A Very British Cult. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.