Woman's Hour - Kyla Harris, Mania and perimenopause, Daughters documentary, Maternity clothes

Episode Date: August 16, 2024

A new study just published says that perimenopausal women are more likely to experience bipolar and major depressive disorder. Cardiff University academics worked with charity Bipolar UK and the UK Biobank, a large-scale biomedical database, to look at nearly 130,000 UK women and focused on the four years around the last menstrual period. Dr Clare Dolman, an ambassador for Bipolar UK and patient and public involvement lead on the project, joins Jessica Creighton.We Might Regret This is a brand new BBC comedy that has been pegged by reviews as ‘the next Fleabag’. It centres on Freya, who is an artist and tetraplegic, as she moves in with her partner and hires her best friend to be her personal assistant. The series is partly based on the experiences of Kyla Harris, the co-creator who stars as Freya. She joins Jessica to talk about everything from having a third person in a relationship to misconceptions around disability.What do you think of maternity clothes? For mums-to-be in 2024, it's apparently all about low-cut jeans and crop tops, moving away from traditional maternity wear. Retailers are recording a decrease of maternity clothes searches with women instead opting for regular clothes, perhaps in a bigger size. So why the shift? Jessica is joined by Assistant Fashion Editor at The Times, Hannah Rogers and influencer and author Alex Light to discuss.A brand new documentary film called Daughters follows four girls whose fathers are in prison in the US. They are all preparing for a special prison visit – a father-daughter dance that sees some of them meeting for the first time. Co-director of the film and CEO of Girls for a Change Angela Patton joins Jessica to talk about her work with black girls and their fathers, along with a father and daughter from the UK who have personal experience of the challenges of a father being in prison.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Happy Friday and welcome to the programme. Now we'll be discussing groundbreaking research around the menopause that's been released today. In the first of its kind, a new study has found an increase in the risk of developing depression during perimenopause. I'll have more on that in just a moment. Also this morning, I'll be speaking to a father and daughter trying to repair their relationship

after he was imprisoned for the first 10 years of her life. They received support from a project called Fathers Today, which is partnered with a similar US scheme called Date With Dad. That hosts a one-off formal dance for incarcerated dads and their daughters actually held in the prison. It's the focus of a new Netflix documentary and I'll also be speaking to the co-director. Also joining me will be the artist and activist Kyla Harris who stars in a new BBC comedy series that may well challenge the way you think about disability. Plus, this morning I'd like your thoughts on maternity clothing. Do you or will you buy specific clothes when pregnant?

Or perhaps you just buy your normal clothes but in bigger sizes. Research shows that there's a fall in the number of women buying maternity wear. So did you buy it? Would you buy it? Is it fashionable enough for you? Have you seen the outfits, I wonder, that have been worn by celebrities like Rihanna and Sienna Miller in recent years? They really put their baby bumps on full display. Would you ever do the same? You can get in touch. Text 84844. Remember that text will be charged at your standard message rate. You can WhatsApp on 03700100444. As always, on social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour and you can email through our website. A bit later, I'll be speaking to two fashion experts about how maternity fashion is changing and why.

All of that to come but first this morning a new study just published says that perimenopausal women are more likely to experience bipolar and major depressive disorder. Cardiff University academics worked with charity Bipolar UK and the UK Biobank, a large-scale biomedical database to look at nearly 130,000 UK women and they focused on the four years around the last menstrual period. Well experts say that research like this could help predict individual risk of mental health problems during this time when they say could be, which they say, could be life-saving. So to tell us more I'm joined Dr. Claire Dolman, an ambassador for Bipolar UK and patient and public involvement lead on the project. Good morning, Claire.

Morning. Hi there, Jess. Really want to hear more about this study. What exactly did you find then? Well, it was really interesting because the study was investigating for the very first time whether perimenopause is associated with this increased risk of developing psychiatric disorders for the first time because we know that there is there's there's there've been sort of minor studies associating relapse rates during perimenopause for psychiatric disorders. But there's quite weak research on this area. And so to be able to do a study like this with so many participants because of being able to use the biobank, nearly 130 females,

was fantastic because it's quite small numbers that you're dealing with, so you need a huge number to tease out any results. And the results that they come up with are very interesting because there wasn't really much of a signal, as we call it, for schizophrenia or schizophrenic-type disorders or for anxiety, but there really was a signal for major depression, which onsets of major depressive disorder were found to increase by 30% in the perimenopause. And for bipolar 1, which in this study was termed mania, there was 112% increase in incidence of bipolar at that time. So, that's sort of about twice the risk of before perimenopause. So, that's really significant for lots of reasons, actually.

It sounds significant. So, when you say 112% increase, how many women are we actually talking about? I haven't got the actual figures of the women in front of me. I mean, it'll be quite small numbers, probably in the dozens or scores. But it's incredibly rare. I mean, I have bipolar disorder myself, and I've been involved in the field for many years. And I'd never met a woman who only developed bipolar, you know, after 40. Because the classic time to develop any psychiatric illness is

teens or early 20s and that's particularly true for bipolar and so it's very it's this is very rare to have first onset but um for me and for other people uh in the sort of bipolar research field, it really shows that there is a connection there between hormonal change and bipolar disorder and major depression, which, you know, themselves are linked. So, it really shows that there is some link there between them. And we sort of anecdotally, you know, for years and for lots of people that I've met, they've told me that they are very affected by their hormones and that their disorder is very much exacerbated by their hormonal flux. You know, whether it's we know that this happens at childbirth and that women with bipolar, for example, have a one in two chance of having a severe episode because of childbirth.

So, you know, there's proof at that time of life, but we've never had any proof or there's never really been very much interest, to be frank, in investigating what happens at perimenopause and menopause so what is it specifically at that stage at perimenopause that helps or encourages the development then of of bipolar you've mentioned hormones is that the only reason well i mean that's the problem that we don't know. There's so little research in this area, whether it's because, you know, there's so little research on women's problems as they're termed, you know, generally, and then add to that that certainly bipolar disorder is quite neglected in terms of research.

So it hasn't really been focused on before. And, you know, the last literally few years that there's been more interest in the whole area of menopause and how it does have a real impact on so many women, then that has helped to also shine a light on this particular group of women who are developing it so late in life. And it's such a tremendous shock to them at that time. And the problem is that doctors, GP psychiatrists are not trained to know about that because we have no research to base that training on. So they are not going to recognise that. So they will not recognise perhaps if a

woman goes to the GP and says that they're very depressed, they might just give them antidepressants. They're not going to investigate whether, oh, this could be first onset bipolar or major depression. And you've mentioned a few times about the lack of research in this area. Why is that? Well, I think it's a combination of the general lack of research on areas of health that only affect women. You know, I'm sure you've had this on your programme. Oh, yes, it's something we've widely discussed, discussed many, many times.

Exactly. So I think that is part of the problem. And also, also something else that we've discussed on Women's Hour is, you know, that it's quite stigmatised, you know, either whether you're talking about menstruation or you're talking about menopause in the workplace and people being embarrassed about it and not wanting to talk particularly to male colleagues or male bosses about their problems. And it's sort of rather dismissed. And I think there's just been a general lack of focus on this area as not of something of interest to the main know, the main research funders who are

going to be older males, probably. And for someone like yourself, Claire, who I know you've spoken publicly about your experiences of living with bipolar, how might this research help you? How might this research help other women? Yeah, well, it's too late for me because I'm past my menopause. But certainly, when I approached as a mental health researcher, I was aware of these few studies here and there and also talking to people that as a woman with bipolar, my illness might be triggered or get worse at that time of life. So I proactively went to my doctor and insisted that I have HRT and went on HRT. And, you know, thankfully I was fine. But I have met and interviewed a lot of women who have been very affected when they get to menopause, having been well, know maybe they were they

were ill in their early 20s they got medication they got help they changed their lifestyle they've kept themselves well for 20 years 15 20 years and then suddenly they get ill again and it's you know the only reason that know, the only coincidence is that they're suffering these hormonal fluctuations. And as we know with childbirth, that those hormonal fluctuations definitely have some effect on mental conditions. Then, and we don't know how, you know, even for childbirth where there is more research. So I think it's, you know, you can assume that it must be something similar at the time of perimenopause when there is such an upheaval of one's sex hormones. I just want to read out a message that we've received, Claire. It's someone that's listening right now. They

want to remain anonymous. And they've said that my mum had a major mental breakdown in perimenopause. She attempted suicide and was sectioned and received electroconvulsion therapy. I'm 48. I'm on antidepressants. I have suicidal and anxious thoughts. I feel out of control. I'm 48. I'm on antidepressants. I have suicidal and anxious thoughts. I feel out of control. I'm terrified that I will follow the path of my mum. Is something like this genetic? Is it is it passed down? Do you feel like what's your reaction to that? That message there from one of our listeners? Yeah, well, I do feel for her it's really it's it's really frightening um especially when there is so little information out there to sort of to to help her come to get to grips with what's happening but there's certainly if for example it was a first onset of bipolar that her mother

had had you know if we knew that that was the case, or if she has any other relatives with bipolar, which, you know, does have quite a genetic element. So that would be a possibility. And major depression also has a genetic element. So I think it would certainly be worth her, you know, asking for to see a psychiatrist or to talk to somebody where she could investigate that and see what her risk is. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure she will appreciate hearing from you. So how do we move this forward now we've got this kind of almost groundbreaking link between perimenopause and bipolar and major depressive disorders? What's the next step to ensure that it can help women going forward? Well, we definitely need clinicians to be aware of it. I mean, obviously, it's a very small number of women, but, you know, those women are at risk. We have had women associated with charity. I'm a trustee of APP Action on Postpartum Psychosis who have taken their own life, you know, at that age suddenly out of the blue when they've been well for 15 years or so

and it's it's a it's a terrible tragedy and if people around them and clinicians were aware that this is a possibility perhaps they might be able to look out for the symptoms better. But we really, really need more research on it so that that can inform the training of clinicians. Because unless they have that, you know, hard evidence like this from the biobank and the Cardiff team that have done such a fantastic job, unless they have that hard evidence that it's not going to get into training programs and things, you know, if it's just sort of a few of us saying people we know suffer like this. So we really, really have to have this follow through with the evidence. Claire, thank you very much for joining us on Woman's Hour. Dr. Claire Dolman there, an ambassador for Bipolar UK. And of course, if you've been affected by any of the issues raised in that

discussion, you can go to the BBC Action Line for links to support organisations. Now to dads and their daughters and the unique relationship that they share. It's the focus of a new Netflix documentary called Daughters. It follows four black girls in the US where their fathers are in prison wanting to reconnect with their daughters and the issues that face the black community in particular. Well, the dads go through a 10-week therapy program called Date with Dad, which leads up to a formal dance with their daughters actually held in the prison. Earlier, I spoke to Angela Patton, who also created the Date With Dad scheme. We were joined by a dad and daughter that we're calling Jamal and Jade, not their real names. They've been through a similar project here in the UK called the Fathers Together Project that aims

to improve the support for young dads in prison and their families. I asked Angela why she's devoted so much time to promoting the voices of Black girls. I once used to be a Black girl and now a Black woman, still growing into my womanhood. But what I unfortunately noticed in my community were the same barriers, the same stereotypes and messages that were given to me that I rebelled against when I started working with young people. I saw the similarities. I was like, nothing is shifting here. And I was working at other nonprofits that work with youth. And instead of me continuing to ask them to change something that they felt was positive and was working, but I saw something different. I said, this is unsettling. And I decided to start my own organization that would actually stand in the gaps that I continue to see that black girls face.

What are those particular barriers and stereotypes that impact black girls? Yeah, we're trouble starters. You know, we're loud, complicated, difficult to work with, low self-esteem. But then on the opposite, you know, everything, adultification, a lot of confusion for young girls, right? I'm too much, but I'm not enough. Right. And so it continued to be something that I saw that was socially and emotionally really affecting black girls. And I felt that that was my calling because it just continued to come into my space. No matter where I was, the black girls just were left out, unheard, unseen and definitely not valued. So tell us about Date With Dad and how perhaps that was one of the ways in which you wanted to address this issue.

Yes. Well, that goes back to affirming black girls' voices. And so my first, you know, initiative was really providing safe summer programming for black girls to really be able to hone into their, you know, own self-worth. It would just be their own six-week program. And that would allow young black girls to think about issues in their communities that they felt that needed to be changed. They could tackle these issues, understand what it meant to mobilize in community, starting with themselves and their peers, and create solutions. And these particular girls decided that they wanted to change the negative narrative around black fatherhood. And these girls decided to do a dance that would be facilitated by them,

really creative approaches. They wanted to kind of shift the typical dance, but they discovered that one of their peers' father was incarcerated, and unfortunately, she couldn't participate. And that really spoke to those girls' souls. They felt that it was unfair when they started to discover not only that they didn't have a dance together, but they were pretty much separated, and this girl really wanted to connect with her father and felt left out. So they said, just because your father is locked in does not mean that he needs to be locked out of your life.

How can we change that? And they wrote a letter to the sheriff and they requested a dance of their own. That's what they called it for girls who fathers were not able to participate because of his incarceration. So let's just take this dance in the jail and give you this moment. And that's how we got here. And that is what your documentary Daughters focuses on, that formal daughter daddy dance in a prison. It took a long time to film. I know that, eight years, and it recently premiered at the 2024 Sundance Film Festival, won an award actually. Two awards, excuse me. Now I want to bring in Jamal and Jade. We're not using their real names, but we can get a UK perspective on this from the two people here who have real life experience of some of the themes that are explored in the documentary.

Jamal, I'll start with you. You were in prison for 10 years here in the UK. It meant that you missed your daughter Jade's birth. How much of what you saw in that documentary could you relate to? I could relate to so much, the the emotional side of things um you know being detached you know from your child was hard so yeah i could i could relate to you know how those guys are feeling and with your children as well, I mean, they just want to be with their dads. You know, in their eyes, their dads are their heroes.

You know, so it was, yeah, it was very emotional. What was hardest about it for you? Reliving the moments of, you know, being in prison and the limited contact, it's almost as feeling dehumanised, you know, not having that chance to bond with my daughter. And for you, Jade, having your dad miss the first ten years of your life, were you able to make sense of what was actually happening and where he was at that young age um at first no I didn't really understand because I was so young and like my mom would just

when my dad used to call she would just say oh like my dad's at work so like she doesn't tell me because I was so young but then obviously like I started to think like you know like why isn't my dad coming home if he's at work because like other dads you know they would come home so it was a bit hard for me and then I felt like I understood more when I was 10 like everything started like 9 10 to like I kind of understood where he was. And once you understood how did you feel about it all? At first it was a bit like you know like there was just a lot of thoughts like why wasn't he there for when I was born like because I have two other siblings so like I used to think like you know like why me why wasn't he there for me? But, yeah, it was a bit hard.

But then, obviously, when he came out, I just remember thinking, you know, even kind of when I got a bit older, and, like, I know my dad was always here for me, but it was like, you know, what would our relationship be better if he was there when I was born? Because, like, my brother, you know know he was there for him and stuff so that's how like I felt because I didn't really I was just like I'm like my emotions was just like thinking you know why me out of all my siblings. Four girls that we focused on in that documentary but did you relate to what they were saying about their dads and the relationships that they had or tried to build? Yeah, I did, especially when the little girl,

she was little at first and then she was really excited. Aubrey. Yeah, Aubrey, she was really excited to see her dad going in, talking about her. And then obviously when she got a bit older, it was like, you know, he said he's going to come and like it just got to where he would call and it would just be like things that wouldn't be so exciting because it would just be like you know like I thought you were gonna come home and stuff so I could relate to

Aubrey on that one Jamal you're listening to that and I suppose some of that you've heard but what's your reaction how does hearing it directly from your daughter make you feel? I mean, words can't really explain, you know, it's more feelings, you know, but it definitely touches me to even hear this, you know, because of the circumstances, you know, I was put under and the decisions I've made mainly you don't realize the ripple effect that's had on my daughter and I just know I do everything I can do to rebuild you know the relationship you know it's an ongoing thing. Angela, listening to Jamal and Jade there,

do their reactions to what they've been through sound similar to what you've heard from, for example, the men in the documentary, the dads and the daughters as well? Absolutely. They both are speaking so much truth to what we try to make sure people feel and experience in the film, but also what I've been able to hear from family members that have participated in the Date With Dad program. But before I even respond, I wanted to thank both of you for being here and your bravery, because this is not easy

work, but I hear first that you are understanding that this work continues to rebuild and to repair means you have to continue to show up. So I just wanted to commend you first for doing that because that's the hardest part is just to be accountable. And also for, you know, a child to say, not only am I not the this collateral consequence and based on my father's decisions this should not define me and my worth and how I can show up in the world but just being here together is exactly why we didn't put a bow on the dance and people said why didn't you end at the dance and I said because the work continues you know at the dance? And I said, because the work

continues, you know, it's a lot of emotions that go into it. And all the people get, you know, real excited about, oh my God, this celebratory event, they're going to make it. The dance will be in the jail. Everyone asks for this. And now what's happening? It's like they everybody goes back to their reality But the truth in the reality is this is heavy and our children also go back with some, you know feeling ashamed So we also have to consider What do our mothers or caregivers have to continue to do to uplift and inspire the girls as well? to kind of just get up every day and be hopeful and work towards forgiveness and how the mother or the caregiver has to really continue to practice

empathy too. And I kind of see in this conversation that the father has acknowledged that. Then you know everyone has suffered something and so he knows that he has to show up and be accountable, but now also be responsible. As Angela says, Jamal, you've probably had to make changes in your life. And I know you got some support from the Fathers Together project. How much did that help you change the way you communicate, the way you build your relationship with Jade? I'm so grateful for the fathers together it just helped me to with the skills and the tools to first understand how it's possible to make changes you know regarding my relationship you know the relationship i have with my children, my daughter and other people as well. And also it's, you know, helped my daughter to understand her parent, her father, you know, and that's key.

And like the programme and Fathers Together, you know, I think that there needs to be a lot more of these things, you know, needs to be out there because people do benefit. You know, I'm a living proof. I've got to smile, you know, because it's helped me a lot because you never, with parenting, you're always learning. You know, there's never enough. You need to be willing and open to learn new changes. And I see you smiling along, Jade, as he's saying that.

What positives do you take from this situation now going forward? Obviously, I'm happy that my dad, you know, like, he stuck to his promise and he's, you know, like, showing me that he's going to, like, stick in my life forever. He's not going to leave me. I'm happy to see him changing and growing this relationship. I'm really glad for you both. How do you plan on continuing to develop your relationship now?

What do you do together? How do you build on what you've already got? Because I'm at a certain age where I just go out with my friends and stuff. But, you know, my dad, like, if I need my nails done, I can call him. Like, he just helps me out. He does the nails or...? No, no, no, no, no.

Yeah, he pays for them. I wish it'd be cheaper. I mean, it's great that you're both smiling at the end of this. Going forward, what do you want to happen, Jamal? what do you want to see for your relationship with your daughter well you know like I said it's an ongoing you know rebuilding giving my daughter that space for her to trust me because I've let her down because it's easy to put the pressure and say I've changed and everything but I'm you know allowing her to have that space for her like I said to feel that trust I don't have any plan you know I'm just going to continue to be a good father you know to learn

open to learn and communicate with my daughter is key understand how she feels communicate with my daughter is key. Understand how she feels. Communicate with her a lot. She's getting a lot older, so my time's limited with things, you know, but she's a good girl, you know, and, you know, I love her. I love my daughter, you know, all my children, you know, we're in a good place. That was Angela Patton, co-director of the Netflix documentary Daughters, and a father and daughter who we're calling Jamal and Jade talking to me there. Daughters is streaming on Netflix now. Now, as we've been telling you for quite a few days, it's nearly listener week. Yes, that means there's still time to tell us about the topics or issues you, you would like to hear discussed here on Woman's Hour. It can be absolutely anything, even something that you've never heard us talk about before. Get thinking. What would you like to hear discussed? Last year, we featured a school teacher who had been struggling with the uncontrollable urge to shoplift throughout her life. She shared the impact this criminal activity has had on her and how she tried

to get help for a recent diagnosis of kleptomania. The actual taking of something gives you a psychological boost, for want of a better word, and for that short amount of time you actually feel good. But then that's taken away pretty much immediately by shame and fear of being caught. Just walking home, feeling that everyone's looking at you, everyone knows that you're not who you say you are. And then actually when you get home, if you have got away with it, not even being able to eat or prepare some of the stuff that you've brought because the guilt is so much.

Well, like I said, listen, it can be absolutely anything, anything that you want to hear us discuss. Maybe you have a confession to make or a difficult experience that you'd like to share. Text us on 84844. Just remember that texts will be charged at your standard message rate. You can WhatsApp on 03700 100 444 on social media. As always, we are at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our... I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies.

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It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Website. Now this morning I've been asking for your thoughts on maternity clothes do you find them fashionable or are they thumpy maybe something in between do you even bother with them at all i ask because retailers have seen a decrease in maternity clothes purchases with women instead just opting for regular trendy clothes that they would normally wear but just in a bigger size. In recent years we've seen celebrities like Rihanna and more

recently Margot Robbie really just put their baby bumps on full display wearing sheer dresses, crop tops with low-cut jeans as well. So are they influencing the fashion of mums to be? Hannah Rogers is the assistant fashion editor at The Times and Alex Light is here in the studio with me. She's a fashion and beauty influencer and author of You Are Not A Before Picture. Welcome to you both to Woman's Hour. Hi. Hello, good morning. Good morning.

Hannah, what are we seeing then? Tell us a bit more. Let's dig a bit deeper into this. Are we seeing a shift in maternity fashion trends? Yes, I think this is absolutely fascinating. And I say that as a woman who is of an age where lots of friends are getting pregnant. So I'm witnessing kind of in real time how these trends are being worked in the real world. But I think what it is, it's a change in what women want from their maternity wear. And I think that change is reflected, as you rightly said, in terms of where they're shopping for their clothes when pregnant. So not necessarily going to those maternity wear brands that maybe our mothers and grandmothers did.

And I think it's also reflected in what maternity wear labels are now pivoting to sell in order to appeal to their customers. And I guess if I was going to put it in a nutshell, I'd say we've moved from bump smothering to bump flashing. Oh, yeah. OK. Why is this? what what's happening what's the reasons behind this why has things changed to how perhaps our mothers and grandmothers were buying um clothes when they were pregnant well i think as you say i think there's a lot of celebrity influence you know look at rihanna on the front row at Dior, coming bump first. Striking image, wasn't it? It was incredible. It was absolutely amazing. It was such a moment.

I mean, possibly, actually, definitely more exciting than what was on the catwalk. Look at 27-year-old Hayley Bieber. My sister-in-law of a similar age just gave birth yesterday. And I know that she has been following what Hayley's been wearing during her pregnancy in her in what she has worn as well crop tops you know bodycon dresses Hayley did a big shoot for W magazine last month when she was on the cover you know in a bump um and also Margot Robbie you know crop topszers. You just I think it's a combination of women feeling really confident when they're pregnant. I think that when I've spoken to my friends, they have said they feel more body confident than ever before when they've got their baby bumps. And now it feels more acceptable to show the process off than hide it away. So I think I think there's a few different things at play, but I think it's

great. It certainly provides really striking, eye-catching images. Alex, you had a baby just six months ago. Baby Tommy? Yes. Lovely. Congratulations. Thank you. So what did you wear? I mean, I found this quite hard. And I suppose you wore different things during different stages as well. I did. I really put off maternity wear for as long as I physically could. Because I found pregnancy already a very difficult, amazing, but difficult time. And I found that already my identity felt quite challenged. And I didn't want to, my body was changing so much. I didn't want to bring that into what I was wearing as well.

I wanted to keep that identity um so I put it off for as long as possible uh until I reached about four or five five months when it just it wasn't physically wasn't possible to fit into my own clothes so before up until that point you're wearing your own clothes I was wearing everything was fitting roughly just about I was wearing the baggier end of my wardrobe and it was it was kind of I was I was getting away with it until I no longer could. And I admitted defeat and then I did a lot of research around maternity wear and what I was supposed to dress my body in. And I found it really interesting. I found these two very different maternity offerings on the market. One was like the historical, like typical mater maternity wear it was like smocks and

wrap dresses and yeah you know things that like like Hannah was saying like cover the bump and lots of florals and patterns and then the other offering was this more modern take on maternity wear which was like crop tops and like low slung jeans that go underneath the bump and sheer dresses and I found it quite hard because neither really appealed to me oh really yeah totally and I I love the new like I loved Rihanna's um moment it was incredible and I love seeing these celebrities like and all women just like embracing their body and showing it off and letting their bumps take center stage I love it but it just it's just never been my way of of of dressing and I just needed stuff to like go down the supermarket and you know I feel comfortable like I didn't need stuff for a

moment I just needed like everyday wear and I found that really difficult so what did you do I I ended up I ended up going along the the route of like basics buying basics so like uh black midi dresses and just going for like oversized t-shirts and jeans in a in a in a bigger size so it's comfort but it's also what you feel comfortable in exactly in terms of it's almost fashionable comfortable fashion how would you describe it right exactly exactly and I I kind of I just stayed true to my old fashion sense and just bought bigger sizes because that just I found that that uh appealed to me more than like the maternity the current maternity offering and that worked for you that worked for me yeah okay okay what have other women said to you about what they do during

pregnancy because you've got a big following on social media and I know you interact with a lot of your audience are they saying similar things totally yeah I think I think I think women do historically and currently find this very difficult to it's quite challenging to keep up with the changing body and then dress a changing body so I think there's a lot of uh doubt and uncertainty about what to do. And I think people just find it really confusing. And I think there's also the financial aspect of it, right? Trying to rationalise the financial decision of investing in a wardrobe that's going to be used for a very, very small amount of time is difficult. So I think people really appreciate the idea of

clothes that you can wear during pregnancy and beyond. And there are a few brands now that offer that, which I think is really great. And towards the end, I started investing in some of those pieces because, yeah, the financial impact isn't as great if you can continue to wear the clothes. Well, Hannah, that can be a problem, can't it? When you think about the finances that people have available to them, if they have to buy a whole new wardrobe of maternity wear, it can be expensive. I imagine it's completely overwhelming and you have no idea or control over whether you'll have use for those clothes again. I mean, I'm guessing what a lot of mothers do now is either buy secondhand or borrow from friends. Maybe they get hand-me-downs. But I think, Alex, you make a really good point of what is on offer.

It seems that you kind of get two identities. You can either be kind of like bucolic pregnancy or proxy pregnancy. And if you just want to look like you, it is really, really difficult. I think there are a couple of brands out there, though. There's one brand called Beyond Nine, which makes a point of creating clothes that you can wear during pregnancy, but are designed to be worn afterwards and also before. And I think some brands are getting better at catering for that. But I do. I mean, I sympathize. I think it's really challenging. You know, you have enough cost to think about when you're bringing a child into the world.

And, you know, also, you might not be having a fantastic pregnancy. You might feel absolutely rotten. So the last thing you're thinking about is how can I look terribly glamorous as well? I can see why people would just be keener to kind of shop for what shop at the brand that they already like in bigger sizes, or as I say, maybe just borrow from friends. Yeah. You mentioned a brand there, Hannah. Of course, there are a number of brands available that cater specifically to pregnant women. I wonder, Alex, is there anything that a maternity wear brand could do to tempt you back to say, we cater for you? Are you looking for specific fabrics, a specific way that it fits, colours, patterns? Or now that you've been through that process and simply bought your, I suppose, ordinary wear,

but in bigger sizes, you're happy with that. Could anyone tempt you back? If I was to become pregnant again, I think, I definitely think, as we've been saying, I definitely think there's that space for the in-between of like, I want to dress well, but I don't necessarily want to be bump-flashing, especially, like Hannah said, at a time when you don't feel great.

You know, I was really... I had preeclampsia towards the end of my pregnancy and I was very swollen and it was just... I didn't want to flash anything. I just wanted to, like, stay in bed. So I think that in- of like really cool colors and like on trend colors colors of the moment like you want to feel like you're able to shop the trends and like you fit into the current fashion offering but you're just doing it while pregnant

it would it would be it would be nice for there to be it would if brands were to offer their normal clothes but just have them tweaked for maternity rather than it's screaming like, this is maternity wear. Hannah, I wonder if part of this new trend to flash off the bump is perhaps part rebellion? After years and years and years of women being told what to wear and how to wear it, it's perhaps them becoming more empowered and saying, no, this is what we want to do when we're pregnant. I think there's definitely an element of that. And I think there's also an element of kind of taking some control back over your body at a time where you don't necessarily feel like you have it. Or maybe, you know, you have something growing inside of you that can feel like an alien process for many women, I'm sure.

And I think it's reclaiming your confidence and saying you know I'm here this is my body and kind of accept me and also appreciate what I'm doing right now I'm growing a human being it is an amazing process um I think I absolutely think that's part of it um oh sorry if you don't want to go Alec jumping in jumping in, I'd love to add that I think it's a rebellion against typical fashion as well, because for as long as we have ever known this world that, you know, what has been dictated as fashionable is smallness, thinness and pregnancy and having a big belly and having a bump is the antithesis of that, of everything that we've deemed fashionable. So I think it's a rebellion against that as well which is really cool really cool to see really is um Alex and Hannah thank you so much for coming on to Women's Hour uh Hannah Rogers uh assistant fashion editor at the Times and Alex Light fashion and beauty influencer and lots of you been listening to this discussion and getting involved as well messaging in christine

says 39 years ago i wore my maternity dress to an end of year do a male colleague asked if i came with tent pegs and guy ropes that is outrageous um i brought all my specific maternity clothes second hand i found i found a lot of maternity clothes maternity clothes second hand. I found a lot of maternity clothes were very plain and boring. I love wearing bright colours and funky prints, but I was never able to find any in maternity. I found my elastic trousers were the perfect maternity trousers that I could wear normally anyway. Another message here. I think it is an age thing. However, back in the 70s, I wouldn't have been seen dead in jeans and a crop top showing my bump. Pregnancy is lovely and definitely nothing to hide.

However, big bellies with livid stretch marks is not the most attractive thing to flaunt, I would suggest. Also, loose clothing is much more comfortable. A range of views there. Thank you to everyone getting in touch and you continue to as well. Text, WhatsApp, social media and email via our website. Now to a brand new BBC comedy series that will really make you think about your perception of disability. It's called We Might Regret This and centres on Freya, an artist and tetraplegic who has just moved in with her partner and hires her best friend Joe as her personal care assistant. It's funny, thought provoking and really revealing.

From a personal assistant walking in whilst a couple are having sex to Joe getting weed on by Freya during a catheter change. It's all in there. Nothing is held back. Kyla Harris is the co-creator of the series and stars as Freya. She's also a disability activist and artist herself who works for greater representation of disabled people in the arts. And she joins me now. Good morning, Kyla. Morning, Jessica. Thanks for that fab intro. Oh, you're very welcome. Thank you for coming coming on I'm really looking forward to this conversation now we'll start with what inspired the series

because you've been in the arts for quite a while is this your first comedy series for tv yeah this is uh definitely my first series for tv um my uh best friend who I met at film school about 20 years ago, Lee Getty and I co-created and co-wrote this. So whenever I refer to the royal we in this conversation, I'm referring to her and I. Okay, great. How would you describe this comedy? I would say that it is bold, sexy, hopefully funny. And I would say game changing.

Why game changing? Well, I'm North American, so I can say really audacious things like that sound. And get away with it. Yeah, exactly. Trying to get away with audacity. Bold and game changing. Why so? Well, you know, one in four to say one in four people in the UK are disabled. And yet we are so underrepresented on screen, on the radio, in so many aspects of life. And it leads to how people are treated in real life. You know, there's this huge perception and misconceptions and prejudice and ableism that affects people on a daily basis. And, you know, we're hoping that we might regret this is an antidote to that, an antidote to centuries of misrepresentation and underrepresentation.

So do you feel as though this this comedy series reflects your daily experiences of what you've been through? Uh, yeah, in some, in, in some ways, yes. I mean, so I'm tetraplegic, which means that I'm a wheelchair user. Um, I am, I need assistance with, um, daily activities, personal care. Um, so, uh, I am unable to walk and, um, and I don't have any dexterity in my hands. So, for instance, I need people to like open doors for me or help me pee. And so I have 24 hour care to assist with that. Um, yeah, but I think, I think like Lee and I, when we were wanting to create this, we came up with almost like bake, it's like baking a cake, all the ingredients of, uh, of what you want in their stories from other disabled, uh, friends, uh, stories from our own lives, people we know in terms of friends and put it all together and created the ingredients for this cake. So they're not all my daily experiences,

but yeah, that's how we made our cake. Okay, well, let's play a clip from the series, shall we? This is Freya when she meets two people who want to hire her as a model. So I guess for me, it's like disability is just a subject worth exploring, right? Because it's kind of like, I mean, we all have needs, right? And requirements. So I guess through modelling, that's kind of what i'd want to do is like highlight that in more of a kind of like my body may be different to you but like there's no difference right you know what i mean like there's nuance sorry i was completely out of it there yeah i'll be honest i was just staring at your jawline so have you modeled much before uh

just some life drawing stuff in Canada. Oh, comfortable with nudity. OK, tick. If I may, I think what Olivia and I are most excited about. Sorry, wait a second. I thought, aren't you Olivia? We're both Olivia. Is your raw talent?

Yeah, I don't really know if I'm a model. In terms of sell-ability, right now, I mean, as a proud white disabled woman. I'm not white. Who is? Look, listening to that, giggling away. But I mean, underlining it, there's some really serious issues that we should probably discuss. But comedy as a function can be so useful sometimes can't it to get your point across what what are you trying to say in this comedy about virtual virtue signaling in particular

oh i think i'm trying like we're trying to challenge so many things. Um, but yeah, the virtue, virtue signaling in terms of intention, I think so many people, uh, say, Oh, you know, I'll experience a lot of microaggressions, microaggressions, and then they'll say, Oh, but that person just had good intentions. Like I'm sure they had good intentions. And at some point I'm a bit like, screw intentions. That made me feel like shit, you know, if I can swear. Apologies for the for the band language. We try and keep it family friendly here on Woman's Hour. OK, can I can I try that again then? Of course. So I'll experience microaggressions and someone will say they have good intentions and I'll say, but that's not what it felt like.

That's not true, you know, and you internalize that a lot as well as disabled people, people of color. I'm also queer. So it's it's at some point good intentions just isn't good enough. Yeah. And so you experienced that a lot. Do you feel like perhaps a naivety where people will ask you quite invasive questions? Oh, 100%. Yeah. I think that people, you know, the North American audacity that we talked about earlier, I think when I lived in Canada, which is where I'm originally from, and whenever I travel to America, people will come up to me and say, what's wrong with you? What happened to you? And I think that a lot of the time that's, that's curiosity and I'm not trying to diminish people's curiosity, but I want people to be, to understand that that's not okay.

You know, and I think that's a fine balance. Yeah, there is that balance, isn't there, between people being over intrusive, like you've mentioned, but also needing enough factual information so that they don't have to make assumptions at the same time. Hmm. Yeah. How do you strike that balance? How do you as a person who has a best friend that has been employed as your personal care assistant strike that balance?

Well, so Lee was my personal care assistant on Not For 10 Years while she was also um screenwriting and um i i think we strike it differently a lot of people feel more more um emboldened to ask her questions about me like whether i can have sex really oh yeah honey they love that info yeah it's just like it's it's so so people are a lot more kind of like um asking more intrusive questions to her even than they do to me um but but yeah i get it all the time. Yeah. And how do you deal with it? Uh, I mean, I suppose how you deal with anything else, right? Like, I think that, look, worth, perception, and loving yourself

and valuing yourself and that being the most important ingredient to life. And so I've had to build a thick skin and become incredibly resilient because of that everyday need for it. Understood. Are attitudes changing at all towards disabled people? Is anything getting better? You know, disability, again, is on a parallel trajectory to racism and sexism. And ableism, as in prejudice towards disabled people, is pervasive. And all of these isms

are simultaneously, I think, getting better and regressing. So it's hard to say. Yeah. So when people watch this comedy series, I'm sure they're going to laugh. But what do you want them to take away from it? I want them to laugh. I want them to cry. I want them to cry. People cry. I want them to be able to relate to it. And whether you're disabled or not, be like, yeah, I experienced feeling like an outsider. Yes, I've felt I've experienced like really difficult things in life, but I can also laugh at them. Kyla, thank you so much for coming on to Woman's Hour. Kyla Harris, who stars in the new BBC comedy series, We Might Regret This. It's on BBC iPlayer and BBC Two from Monday evening.

Just quickly turn to a couple of the messages we've had about maternity clothing, saying, Elizabeth, we were a group of friends of similar age. We had a bag of maternity clothes we passed around, adding to as it went along. Now on weekend woman's hour tomorrow, Team GB weightlifter Emily Campbell on winning her bronze medal, her cartwheel celebration and the importance of body positivity. And the next instalment in our genre fiction series, science fiction fans, yes, it's your turn. Traditionally, it's been considered a male-dominated section, specifically white male. We'll look at what and why it's changing. Join me tomorrow at four. And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. been in British history and the tabloid press were hooked. Was she alive? Was she dead?

The police were baffled. It's the most hideous crime, kidnapping. It's worse than just a straight murder. And Muriel's family was thrown into a nightmare that continues to this day. I just want to find my mother's body. I'm Jane McSorley and this is Intrigue.

Worse than murder. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.