Woman's Hour - Kylie Jenner's success, Kristalina Georgieva CEO of the World Bank

Episode Date: March 7, 2019

According to Forbes, Kylie Jenner is the world's youngest self-made billionaire at just 21. The youngest Kardashian family member is making her fortune from her best-selling cosmetics business. We discuss the debate about whether she's "self-made" with cultural commentator Bolu Babalola and branding specialist, Nyree Ambarchian, Co-Founder and Director at Stand Agency. Women have only three-quarters of the legal rights that men enjoy according to a new index produced by the World Bank. This makes it harder for them to get jobs, start businesses and make economic decisions. Kristalina Georgieva, the World Bank's Group Interim President explains why we need to remove the barriers that hold women back. Getting clean has been a theme of Michele Kirsch’s life: from scrubbing other people’s showers to weaning herself off the prescription medicine she’d spent her life addicted to. She talks about her memoir 'Clean', which brings together her own experiences with the stories she’s found in clients' homes. The Woman’s Hour babies are now one. Reporter, Abby Hollick meets their mothers to discuss how motherhood has changed their relationships.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to Thursday's edition of the Woman's Hour podcast. The World Bank has produced a report which shows women across the world enjoy only three quarters of the legal rights that men have. I'll be talking to their Chief executive and interim president, Kristalina Georgieva. A memoir called Clean, Michelle Kirsch on her life as a cleaner and her story of getting clean from an addiction to prescription drugs and alcohol. And another episode of Bump, Birth and Beyond, the four mothers discuss the impact their babies have had on their relationships with the fathers. Now, you can't have missed the fact that Kylie Jenner, at the age of only 21,

has become, according to the Forbes list, the world's youngest self-made billionaire. She's made her fortune from her cosmetics business, and it's only recently been in any stores. The success came from her visibility on social media. 128.5 million followers on Twitter, the most watched person on Snapchat, with 4.1 million subscribers to her YouTube channel. But how self-made is she when she spent her life as a member of the Kardashian family, all of whom had extensive coverage on television and across the Internet?

Unairi Ambachian is one of the founders of the branding agency Stand. Balu Babalola is a cultural commentator. What did she make of the term self-made? I think the term self-made kind of implies that it's a rags to riches story where somebody you know struggled to build their business and started off with a small loan I think that's the contention that a lot of people have so the self-made I understand the principle because technically it she has made her brand made her own brand and her build it um a business and a name for herself separate from her family but at the same time she has been in the business since she was nine essentially she was on her that reality tv show keeping up the kadashians um she watched her sisters and

their businesses and essentially um they themselves as individuals were built to be brands themselves. So she was always going to be rich. She always has been rich. On the flip side of that, though, there are loads of heiresses and people who are born into rich families who don't manage to build their wealth into a brand that's worth billions. Billion dollars. Yes.

And Noreen, a lot of people have been very dismissive saying, oh, it's only her sister's sex tape that launched the family in the first place. How justified are those kind of criticisms? I don't think it's an easy thing to do, what she has done. I think you can look at Rob Kardashian, who

had a similar platform, similar kind of opportunity, and I think he did have some socks at one point. He had a sock business, yes. You know, you don't hear about Rob's socks. She has done something very different and she has been the sister who has best monetised that brand. So yes, she had a platform.

She invested her own money into it, but it was money she couldn't have made without the bigger Kardashian-Jenner brand. But she has carved out her own money into it, but it was money she couldn't have made without the bigger Kardashian-Jenner brand. But she has carved out her own brand and I would say she's actually a brand within a brand within a brand because Kylie Jenner's lips are a brand in their own making. But why? What is it? Yes, she's a brand within a brand within a brand

and she does admit that she had very thin lips when she was younger and she's had them filled out. But what is it about the look that she presents that so appeals to so many young women? She knows her audience. She knows her audience. And it's a very, for lack of a better term, Instagram look. It's perfection and it's features that are kind of built to be ethnically ambiguous which is very you know every kind of era has its own idealized image of beauty and I think now it's

ethnic ambiguity and I think it's the tan and the bigger lips and everything that just seems so attractive to people and I think with her building a makeup brand, it's made that look seem attainable to them, even if they can't afford those cosmetic procedures that she's had. But she does keep it, this is going to sound slightly ridiculous, but she does keep it real in a way. She has authenticity because of things like

it's starting from an insecurity. And I think people buy into brands that have a story and an authenticity. Although it took starting from an insecurity. And I think people buy into brands that have a story and authenticity. Although it took a while to her. What do you mean it's starting from an insecurity? Because you look at the pictures of her with the hair looking amazing, the lips, the eyes, everything looking amazing. But the first thing she came out with was the lip kits.

And that started from her insecurity about her own lips being too thin. And she kind of built it from there. And she also has the scar on her leg, which is kind of imperfect beauty. So I don't know whether it's genuine authenticity or the appearance of it. I mean, it took a while for her to admit that those were lip fillers. It was like years of people being like, those are lip fillers before she came out and said it. And there was a whole episode about it.

And you know what? I don't really blame her for not even coming out about it because she grew up in a family where looks were it. Looks were their brand and their looks were their identity and why they were famous. So I can't even imagine being nine years old and growing up in that kind of environment. And there's that pressure. So it kind of makes sense that she would come out with something that was so linked to external beauty. So how much is it, Nairi, about her and how much is it about the family? I don't think you can separate the two.

I think she has done something different and she has carved out her own brand. But she has undoubtedly used the platform that the Kardashian clan give her. But I do think they are too easy to knock. And I know we always say it started with a sex tape, but actually Kim Kardashian, my dad will be impressed because the Kardashians have Armenian heritage, same as me, so I've kind of followed them. But Kim actually spent a lot of time

building up a brand of her own around fashion and beauty, which whether you agree or disagree with it, she did do some kind of legwork. And yes, the sex tape kind of is what propelled her but they have all capitalized on that kind of brand and that that moment and who knows how much it is kind of chris jenner behind the scenes but they've all capitalized on it but kylie has done it better and she's done it differently and and she does say that she hasn't actually inherited any of the money with which she started the business. Yes.

And that she pays her mother to manage her. Yeah. Do you believe that? Yes, yes. I think Christiana definitely takes a cut. And I think part of why she's, I think, more successful than her sister is because she's crossed over to a new generation. It's no longer, the older Kardashians are more millennials and she's Gen Z, which is, I have a young sister and she's 20. So, yeah, that's the generation that comes after millennials. The older Kardashians are more millennials and she's Gen Z, which is I have a young sister and she's 20.

So, yeah, that's the that's the generation that comes after millennials. So my sister reminds me that I'm a millennial. She's Gen Z. So that's why I know that. But they are social media savvy. They live on social media. Everything is social media based. And that's why she has the most followers. And that's why she's able to cross over to that demographic is because she's of of that time. So I suppose she is the ultimate influencer she is the ultimate influencer yeah some people have been asking at what cost has she achieved her billionaire status you know she does admit as we've said to having her lips filled and she spent so much of her childhood being scrutinized. What impact do you reckon that's had on her?

Oh, tremendous. Because even without that kind of pressure when you're not on TV, adolescence is hard enough, let alone being in a family, not just being on television, but being in a family where they're built to capitalize on looks. That's what they do. And she even said, there's an episode where she's even said that growing up with sisters like Kim and Chloe

and being compared to them had a profound impact on her. And of course it did. It has an impact on your psyche. And so I have no doubt that it actually influenced her going into beauty and also changing her look quite drastically. And I mean, it isn't just lips it's like full body transformation so I think she has just definitely felt the pressure to conform to a certain image. She posts stuff about her partner and her baby will she one day in the

life to regret it all? I don't know if she'll live to regret it but I do think the at what cost question is at what cost in general not just to her I you know personally I don't necessarily buy into what she's selling um you can't you can't get away from the fact she's doing it very well but I yeah there's definitely an impact and the message to those 18 to 24 year olds who are that's three three quarters of her customers I mean i'm not sure it's the best message that we could be reaching them and also the quality of the products i have a young sister they're not that great and they're not particularly money they're not worth the money they're not particularly high end but it's her brand it's got the kylie name on it so well i haven't tried

i have to say so i don't know how good they are or otherwise, but thank you both very much for being with us this morning. Bolo Babalola and Nairi Ambartian, thank you. Now, the World Bank now has its first female chief executive, Kristalina Georgieva, is also interim president of the World Bank Group. So it's perhaps not surprising that their most recent research project has resulted in a report called

Women, Business and the Law 2019, a Decade of Reform. It looks at milestones in a woman's working life and the laws which protect her at each stage. The data spans a 10-year period, covers 187 countries and looks at factors that hold women back from making economic decisions that are best for them and their families. Well, I spoke earlier to Kristalina. What inspired the research behind the report? We realized at the World Bank that no country can succeed without tapping in the potential of all its people, men and women, and that there are so many legal barriers for women to reach their full potential. And we started looking systematically at what these legal barriers exactly are,

and then identifying progress that is being made. Now, the data is presented under headings such as going places, getting paid, getting married, having children, getting a pension. Why did you select things in that way? Because we wanted to walk the life of a woman from is she free to go whenever she wants to go, through what does it mean for a woman to get a job, what is in her decision-making power when it comes down to getting married, is she able to manage assets on her own, Does she have access to credit? And we ended with pension. And we found out that in each of these areas, there are very practical things that can be done to create more

space for women to contribute to society. And I want to stress that we are led not only by what is morally right for women to be equal to men legally, but what is also right for societies. Because in our research, we found out that not tapping into the potential of women is one of the world's costliest, solvable problems. We actually live out a staggering $160 trillion of wealth because women are not equal to men. So let's look at a couple of the things that I've just mentioned. What are the problems that still exist that are associated with getting married? In many countries, the right of a woman to choose a husband is legally restricted. And when a woman is married, it may be on the grounds of an age that actually cripples her life and possibly the lives of her children. What we want to see, of course, is that women have the right to choose

who they marry and when they marry. And what about running a business? What are the problems associated with that? The first one is just being able to register a business. If a man can register a business freely, but the woman needs we also measure like access to credit or the right to own assets. And in all these areas, we found very interestingly that a lot of progress has been made like inheriting assets or owning assets. But this is also one of the areas where progress has slowed down tremendously. And what about getting a pension, the final one on the is women ought to retire earlier than men.

And that means that they get smaller pensions. And then on top of it, we know that statistically, women tend to live longer than men. For a woman-led household, or for a single woman, that restriction of right to work and the limitations on pension often mean that a woman is destined to live her last years in life being poor. Of course, many argue that women should retire earlier for their own good. And what we are saying is that a woman may choose to retire earlier, but don't force her to do so. Let it be her choice.

Where would you say there is most need for improvement? In what parts of the world? The world as a whole today in an average economy grants a woman three quarter of the rights of a man. In the Middle East and North Africa region, it is less than 50% of the rights of a man. So if you take a region, this is where there is more work to be done. The good news is that in many countries, and I will quote Jordan as an example, there is now much more attention to opening space for women to have a job, to be entrepreneurs, to a certain degree driven by the same reason women in Europe are so much ahead. And it is for a family to prosper and be a middle income family, it needs two incomes, not one. If we take areas for improvement, where we are furthest behind is in parental rights. There are still many countries where women get less than 14 weeks of paid maternity leave. Men do not get parental leave. And that leads to less ability for women to equally participate in the economy because they are restricted at the time

of childbirth. We encourage, through the report, countries to learn from each other. And we see how our report is serving as a transmission line of good experience, so more progress can be made. But what impact do you expect a report from the World Bank to have in getting countries that are lagging behind to move forward? What we see is that there is appetite to catch up. Nobody wants to be at the bottom of any ranking. But more than anything else, what we are communicating through the report, it is possible. Let's be very frank here.

This is a literally man-made problem because most laws on the books are done at the time when women had limited political participation. But this is now changing. And what we are seeing is that when laws are revised, when barriers, legal barriers are removed, actually economic participation goes up. Take the most painful issue for women, and it is pay discrimination. When countries put on the books a requirement for equal pay for equal work, over time, this pay discrimination shrinks. It still exists even in the top countries. We have six that score perfect 100. Even there, there is still in reality a pay gap, but it is smaller and it is shrinking.

Which countries are doing the best? Well, right on top of the list is actually France. It scores 100 and it is also the country that improved the most over the last 10 years. And we have five other in the second group of countries doing really well. And the reason the UK still has a little bit to catch up 100% of parental leave. It pays just slightly over 90%. The rest has to be paid by the employer. And why is this a problem? Because the employer may or may not pay. So we believe that the UK, with a small legal correction, can be scoring 100 and say, yes, I wish that would be soon.

I know the World Bank Group wants to end extreme poverty by 2030. How far will this help in your ambition to achieve that? When women are empowered, they contribute tremendously to their families and their societies. In fact, we have found that data shows women empowerment means more investment in education of children, in the health of the families. Women tend to spend their income more for the benefit of others. We cannot imagine the world ridding itself where extreme poverty is going in many countries in the wrong direction. Rather than going down, it is going up. Out of the five countries with most poor people, three are in sub-Saharan Africa. The other two are India and Bangladesh. India and Bangladesh are doing well. They're likely to get to that point of eradicating extreme poverty, whereas Nigeria, Democratic Republic of Congo, if things go the way they go now,

there will be more poor people by 2030, not less, and the percentage is going to go up. Ethiopia is the fifth country. Ethiopia is doing better, but even there we see problems. So in these countries, there are many things that need to be done for the eradication of poverty. Gender equality is one of them. And I want to repeat myself,

the world's costliest solvable problem may be exactly this one. I was talking to Kristalina Georgieva, the president of the World Bank Group and chief executive of the World Bank. Still to come in today's program, the second episode this week of Bump, Birth and Beyond. The four mothers discuss how becoming a mother has changed their relationship with the fathers of the babies who are now a year old. And the serial, the fourth episode of A Small Town

Murder. And by the way, it's World Book Day today and in recent weeks we've been asking some of our guests about their favourites. You can see a video on the Women's Hour website to hear the choices of Lorraine Kelly, Sarah Cox, Frida Pinto and Tracey Neville. Now Michelle Kirsch begins her memoir, Clean, in a rather startling way. In 1967, my father was taken out

by a swift blow to the head while travelling from New York to Canada. The train crash happened when she was only six. Her mother was knocked sideways by the death of her husband, and Michelle began to rely on their cleaner. As she grew up, she too earned money by cleaning other people's houses, but she also became addicted to prescription drugs and alcohol. The title of the book is doubly relevant, cleaning as a job and getting clean in rehabilitation. Michelle, how did your mother behave after the death of your father? What was her reaction to it? I think she sort of melted. She really, through no fault of her own, She was just properly knocked sideways. And I think now there's a clinical term for it.

It's almost a clinical term for everything. And I believe it's called pathological grief response, whereby you're so utterly devastated by something bad that's happened to you, you cannot recover, you cannot get back to whatever is normal. So what did your cleaner, Emma, provide that your mother couldn't? So we were in Liverpool when it happened. But when we came back to New York, Emma was still there. I think she was there when my dad was still alive. And she was this sort of strength, this tower of strength and optimism and regularity. She loved pop music. She

loved really simple things. She would breeze in and turn all this chaos and disorder and misery into this lovely, clean smelling, lovely, happy, orderly place. And she was very motherly toward me. So what drew you to cleaning as a way of earning a living? I did cleaning after having many jobs, including I was a journalist for about 30 years and I did other things. I was a teacher, I was a tour manager, I was in the music business. But when I came off of drugs, I found dealing with people very, very difficult. I found it very difficult to do people have conversations. I didn't it very difficult to do people, have conversations. I didn't really know how to do life, not on drugs.

And I thought, well, I can still do things. I can still clean things. I can move my body back and forth and clean things without, with just saying yes, leaving notes, kind of a post-it note culture. I didn't really have to talk to people. So it suited me for a few years to do that at the time. And what was your response to people who said, oh, come on, you know, being a cleaner, this is beneath you? It did stop conversations at times when I went to parties, but I didn't go to

many parties because I was quite agoraphobic. But I just said, it's better to work than to not work because being on the doll was even worse than cleaning. And I just said, you know what, people need somebody to clean their house. I can clean. Not very well, I have to add. I wasn't a great cleaner. I was a mediocre cleaner. And it was a service that I could provide that didn't require a whole lot of human contact, which suited me down to the ground at the time. There are times in the book when you seem to be rather indiscreet about some of your clients. There's the bachelor with a toy collection from the 1970s and then a woman who has Xanax by the bed. Why did you feel it was necessary to reveal some of the things that your clients had? Well, first of all, it was probably in the sense of publish and be damned.

You know, I thought that they're probably not going to read this. I've done many things since I've been a cleaner. So if they come back to me with this, it's okay. But the Russian people with one side of the bed had these kind of Russian icons of religion and God, and the other side of the bed had all the Xanax, which was one of my poisons when I was addicted to drugs. And I just thought, wow, what a metaphor, God or drugs, which do I choose? It was great. I couldn't not put that in. How did your addiction to prescription drugs begin? My addiction began when I was very young.

And I didn't, like my mum, I didn't cope with the death of my father well at all. And it manifests itself in very bad anxiety attacks. And in those days, Valium was almost like cough sweets. Everybody got them. This was like the late 60s, early 70s. And if you had any, if you kind of sneezed on the F train going into New York City, you know, five people would open their bags and say, you want a Valium. It was so common. It was not thought of as an addictive or dangerous thing. So I was given from a very young age. It took a very long time for you to go to rehab.

Why did it take so long? It took a long time because I hid it extremely well. I was quite high functioning and I was able to get it. And when I wasn't able to get it, NICE, the National Institute of Clinical Excellence, they changed the prescribing laws probably in 2008, 2009. And then it became more difficult for me to get it on prescription. And then I found other ways through the internet, through friends, through the street, and I got it that way. So I was able to function. I have to tell you, Jenny, taking Valium didn't make me feel high and great and fantastic. It just made me feel normal and and functioning and as long as I could do that I could sort of get away with it people

didn't really know what I was like not on drugs. You had other forms of treatment I think you had CBT and what worked for you in the end? In the end, doing a lot of the things that are suggested in 12-step programs helped quite a great deal. It didn't remove all the anxiety. I have to accept that I'm an anxious person and I will get anxious. CBT looks fantastic in studies and on paper. It didn't personally work for me very well. I had a short course of hypnosis, which helped a bit. And this whole notion, I know it's quite trendy, but mindfulness works for me quite well as well. It's just saying like, this is just right now and you're not going to feel this way forever. How seriously is anxiety taken now in a way that it wasn't when you were a little girl? I feel it's definitely growing in

recognition. My daughter suffered from anxiety very, very badly in school and they didn't know how to deal with it. They put her in the room for naughty children because she kept on running out of classroom. And I kept on saying, she's got the same thing I have. She's got agoraphobia. She can't be in this room, but they didn't really know what it was. Now there's more awareness of it, but it's still, I would say, the Cinderella of the mental health service of the NHS. And depression is the thing that we all know about on the neurotic spectrum. Anxiety, a little bit less so. Michelle Kirsch, thank you very much indeed for being with us. And I'll just repeat the title of the book is Clean. Thank you.

Thank you, Jenny. Now, the women's are babies. Kit, Rudy, Oscar and Ruby are now a year old. We met the women when they were 33 weeks pregnant. And Abbey Hollick continues to follow the parents' experiences in her series Bump, Birth and Beyond. Well, today they're discussing how motherhood has changed them. Abby begins by asking Laura how becoming a mother has affected her relationship with Phil. I watch him and I think oh he's a great dad he's doing a smashing job but there are times when he just bugs the

hell out of me. I'll be honest I just go hurry up and go to work. It. Sorry, he doesn't listen to the radio. And Jen, what about you? What's it been like a second time with Andrew? Has there been kind of new issues to navigate? I have to confess, I am really lucky because he probably does more than I do. But we went away over Christmas and Andrew puts them to bed every night and has done for good reason because he gets in just before bedtime and if he didn't put them to bed, night and has done for good reason

because he gets in just before bedtime. And if he didn't put them to bed, then he wouldn't see them. Do you know what I mean? So he gets in, he puts them to bed. And it's your break. And that's my break. You know, I'm in the other room staring at the wall on Instagram. But then we went away over Christmas and my brother came over

with his baby who's the same age as Rudy. And after Christmas, he did make a comment about how much Andrew was doing. And the way that he'd interpreted it was that I was almost taking the mick out of Andrew a little bit. I think it kind of annoyed him that I wasn't the primary... I think, no, it is 50-50. It's not that I'm not the primary one,

but it's just that it is completely 50-50. And I don't think it really is in his situation. Maybe it's just that me and Andrew have really advanced. I don't know. And Charlotte, Ben took 12 weeks paternity leave. Was there a little bit of, I hope he's going to follow the routine in the correct way I'm going to give him tips here or were you able to step back and be like you know what I'm

at work do your thing yes I was I did feel able to step back I don't think I micromanaged from a distance I felt completely confident that you know I would go out to work and they would both be there when I came home I'm not gonna lie the first few days they were both still in their pajamas when I came home but that's okay because I know what it's like some days you just stay in your jammies and that's okay too but I didn't have any set ideas about the way Ben had to parent while I wasn't there. He did a great job. Last time we discussed sex, it was six, seven weeks after birth, so everyone was saying we haven't gone there yet, it's not a priority.

Does it feel different a year on, Laura? She's a bit of a pain going to bed, to be honest. She co-sleeps and it's a luxury if I manage to put her in a cot and she stays in there. So, poor Phil, he, suffering in that department. Sleep is for me the, I don't know, greatest aphrodisiac. If I've managed to have a good five or six hour stretch, then yeah, I can go there. But if I've been up every two or three hours wiping a snotty nose or changing pharmacy sheets,

no, I'm okay, thank you. And Rowan, do you feel ready to date again? I've been swinging from the chandeliers, that's a joke, obviously. I mean, yes, as in I'm open to it, I'm not quite sure when I'm supposed to fit it in. I feel very protective of our setup and our family. I am in no way looking for a father figure for Kit which is not to say I wouldn't necessarily want to be in a long-term relationship but just

the parameters have changed definitely so it's not a priority at the moment but that could change it depends who you meet and on that note not looking for a father figure for Kit is it too early or do you discuss, you know, this is your family? I've started practising a bit. People love to ask about it and people most want to ask about the donor. And what I've started getting now is things about Kit, like, oh, do you think that she looks like you like this or whatever, which is kind of not something that preoccupies me.

But I am thinking about the time when she starts asking questions and I don't want there to ever be this moment where she doesn't know so we read like there's a couple of books like um it's okay to be different or the family book one of my favorite books is peck peck peck you know it's got a daddy bird and a baby bird and the daddy bird is teaching the baby bird to peck anyway we read this book all the time and I kind of one in ten times I do a little kind of well we haven't got a daddy in our family so who teach you to peck maybe it'd be mummy or granny or granddad and so I'm kind of just trying to ease it in there a bit that's lovely though so there won't be this big reveal let me sit you down at the table it's gonna be a natural I don't want

to over explain I don't want to tell her too much too soon I want to be quite thoughtful about keeping it simple and when she starts asking questions just answering the questions she asks not kind of going off on one with a whole complicated story that starts veering into having to try to talk about sex with a three-year-old and how do you feel about being asked about your circumstances because presumably it's no it's really no one's business you don't always want to discuss well there was a sperm donor and especially once kit's going to start listening and understanding the story do you get asked a lot um yes probably slightly less now that she's here maybe because it's not you know when you're pregnant people immediately ask about your partner or the father

i think i feel more protective of her story because it's her story now than I did I'm naturally very open but actually I think the details of that story and of the donor are now kits to share and I want her to hear them hear them and know them first before everyone around her that makes sense and Laura and Rowan last time you both got quite emotional discussing how grateful you felt that having gone on this fertility journey that you have these gorgeous daughters. Does that put any pressure on you not to complain about the tough stuff? Do you kind of catch yourself thinking, I shouldn't say how tired I am because of teething because I longed very much for this child? No, because I think all mothers feel the same, whether it's facility treatment or not.

You're entitled to feel exhausted and have your odd rant, but still feel incredibly privileged every time I see her. She's the best thing that ever happened. I think sometimes I think as a solo parent that I'm sort of aware of not wanting to be like, oh, but it's even harder for me. Like, I chose, and I don't think it is, actually. I think some a solo parent that I'm sort of aware of not wanting to be like, oh, but it's even harder for me. Like I chose, and I don't think it is actually, I think some things are easier. It's all sort of swings and roundabouts.

So to judgements, Laura, have you felt judged at all? I absolutely love it when you're at the shops and like you're making sure that they've got a hat and scarf and stuff like that and it's cold. And my mum is the first to say, where's her hat? And Ruby pulls it off and she was in the shop this day and my mum was pushing her and this lady says, oh, she hasn't got a hat on and you should have seen her face. I said, you've got a taste of your own medicine, mother.

I mean, has anyone ever kept gloves on a baby, ever? It's not possible. I feel the need to justify it sometimes. You know, if you're meeting a friend for coffee and it's freezing cold, I feel like going, she won't keep her gloves on. I obviously left the house with gloves. Rowan, have you felt any judgment for being a solo parent? No, actually.

I, and quite consciously, quite quickly knew I needed to have a bit of my own life back, particularly because I am on my own with her and I want her to have me on good form the time she does have me and I still I'm selfish I still need time to myself and things for myself be on work and so I mean not every weekend but you know every two weeks I will get a babysitter and I'll do something with friends on a weekend or and I've started um a stay over in London on a Wednesday night my parents have her so that I can focus on work and also, frankly, see my friends and get a night's sleep.

But if I ever worry about judgment, it's kind of, I'd hope no one would think that I was, like, detached or because I absolutely adore her and love spending time with her. But I don't, I'm not going to be a martyr to motherdom, motherdom, motherhood. We've all got to feel a lot less guilty, haven't we? Yeah. Thinking about it now, the only thing I did feel guilty about

was my desire to go back to work yes when i was ready when oscar was probably eight months old and that felt a bit difficult because other people were like oh you know i'm dreading going back to work you know i just love being at home with my baby i love my baby my son is the best thing that ever happened to me hands down uh however i yeah i'm not an at-home mom i think it depends what baby you've got as well yeah completely different experience people are people and that's kids included anybody who's got an angel baby as i had the first time around do not have the second time around i'm sorry but it's totally different imagine if you'd had two

angel babies you'd have to be kicked out of this group. I went back when Kit was eight months and I went back and I definitely, I was ready. And I definitely thought, oh, people are going to think, oh, it's a bit soon. Charlotte, you've previously discussed how you feel a responsibility to connect Oscar to his Afro-Caribbean heritage. And you eloquently sort of said you were a custodian of that.

How has that changed now he's a year old? Yeah, it is important and it will remain important obviously um on a day-to-day basis i'm thinking of the brass tacks of trying to keep his hands out of the toilet and things like that rather than the more existential issues about identity but i have ensured we have bought books that are positive about ethnicity and about his blackness and that will remain an issue I think I had a bit of a preconceived notion in my head about how I would talk to him about his identity and his heritage and the dualities in his heritage but actually that's going to have to be led by him. I realise now I was sitting reading him a book, I think it's called Little

Leaders or something like that, which is about positive role models for the women of colour. And then I sat and looked at my little virtually blonde haired boy and thought, actually, you're gonna have bags of privilege. This isn't gonna be this isn't gonna be an issue for you dude so yeah i'll have to be led by what he needs going forwards has that been a surprise to see the sort of blonde it was a little bit ben and i had talked about what do you think our baby will look like and then he yeah surprised me a bit but he's beautiful he's mine he looks like me and he yeah he wasn't what the picture I'd drawn in my head. So last thing, what's been the most surprising part of the whole year? Laura?

Just how much you can actually love a person. Like people in relationships and they're like, I love you. No way do I love my husband like I love my daughter. She, it's different. It it's different isn't it it's just this love that you've created this person that's mini you forever and just great I just love them Jen top that yeah Andrew or Rudy I think the most surprising thing is probably having a second, you kind of realise how much of it is just nature rather than nurture.

You just get these two completely different children. So I suppose it's how little what you're doing is actually impacting who they are. You know, with the first one, you think everything about their personality and everything about their personality and everything about how uh how much they cry or whether they sleep properly is all kind of a product of how you're raising them and what you're doing and then with the second one you kind of realize you know what you've got nothing to do with it you just roll with the punches and that's it charlotte i think for me i've learned a lot about my patience like little

things that he does will drive me insane however i you know i spent 20 minutes yesterday posting a triangle block in triangle slot and i could do that for absolutely ages with him so i have been really surprised by the degree to which i now feel I have this innate sense of needing to set an example and be a role model. And it's really like definitely affecting how I think about all sorts of things, whether that be my approach to like romantic relationships for myself or thinking about work or thinking about her watching me get dressed in the morning and look in the mirror. Yeah, that's definitely surprised me. Brilliant. Same time next year february 2020 the earlier episodes of bump birth and beyond are on the woman's hour website and if you've missed them you can find them there now earlier in the program we heard from michelle kirsch on her life as a cleaner and getting clean from addiction. Kate on Twitter said, as a long-term anxiety sufferer, I can relate to so much of what Michelle was saying.

I look forward to reading her book. Now, tomorrow and Saturday, the Women of the World Festival in London takes place at the South Bank Centre. So I'll be speaking to Jude Kelly, the founder and director of WOW, and Julia Gillard, the only woman to have been Australia's prime minister. We'll be discussing where next for women in leadership.

And the author Ayelet Gundagoshan talks about her new novel, Liar, about lies and their consequences. That's two minutes past ten tomorrow morning. Do join me, if you can. Bye-bye. Hello, I'm Greg Foot, and I'm hosting a new Radio 4 podcast called The Best Things Since Sliced Bread. Have you ever wondered what's fact and what's fad when it comes to wonder products? Face creams, activated charcoal, kombucha, turmeric shots.

That's what I'm trying to find out with the help of leading scientists and special guests. If you want to separate benefits from bunkum, subscribe to The Best Things Since Sliced Bread on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.