Woman's Hour - Ladies' Loos, Family Secrets, Dame Stephanie Shirley

Episode Date: December 7, 2020

What goes on in the ladies? Office gossip, getting locked-in, the most embarrassing moments, confessing to a stranger, a place for bonding, bullying, and bunking-off? We hear your stories about women�...��s toilets, with Comedian Shazia Mirza and Historian Claudia Elphick. Dame Stephanie Shirley – always known as Steve – joins Jane to talk about her career-spanning book of speeches So to Speak. Now 87, she’s a successful IT entrepreneur who revolutionised the workplace for women and is now a major philanthropist. She's in demand for public speaking and often starts by giving her own story of arriving here on the Kindertransport in 1939, one of 10,000 Jewish children fleeing Nazi Germany. She says she has done more since that day than she would ever have believed possible.We continue our series on family secrets. Today we hear about a woman in her late forties who has a secret which has affected her life since she was a teenager. And we get the latest about vaccines from GP Sarah Jarvis.

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Starting point is 00:00:42 BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and a warm welcome. And I don't know whether the BBC just hasn't paid the bill, but it's freezing at Broadcasting House today. Really is. I've got my blooming muffler scarf on. It's a disgrace. Anyway, it's December, so I suppose we should expect to be a cult. Although we're always slightly taken by surprise, aren't we?
Starting point is 00:01:02 It's Monday the 7th of December, and this is Woman's Hour. Yes, and we will explore the wonderful and sometimes quite strange world of women's toilets a little bit later in the programme. We want your involvement as well. 84844 is our text number. On social media, we are at BBC Woman's Hour. This is your programme. Please do feel free to get involved with any subject we have up for discussion this morning. We're also going to be talking about vaccines, particularly about the COVID vaccine in relation to women, pregnant women.
Starting point is 00:01:36 You might well have heard that pregnant women are not going to get the COVID vaccine. If you're concerned about that, perhaps if you have a question, 84844 Sarah Jarvis, GP to the stars, will be on Woman's Hour this morning talking to her. I mean, the media stars. She's always excellent value, knows exactly what she's talking about. Sarah with us relatively briefly, but towards the end of the programme this morning, do ask a question if you have one. Let's start with something I know is going to be really life enhancing. The incredible IT entrepreneur Dame Stephanie Shirley, also known as Steve, is now 87. She revolutionised the workplace for women. She started a software business called Freelance Programmers back in 1962. And she is now a major philanthropist. She's in demand for public speaking. And she often starts by telling her own story of arriving in England on the Kindertransport back in 1939, one of 10,000 Jewish children fleeing Nazi Germany. Dame Stephanie Shirley,
Starting point is 00:02:40 good morning to you. How are you? Good morning to you. I'm fine, thank you. Now, we're here partly today to discuss your collection of speeches, which is entitled So To Speak. You have been making public speeches now for quite some time, but I guess it's an art form all of its own, actually, isn't it? Have you got any advice for anybody who is about to do it, perhaps for the first time? To note how stressful it can be. I've had, I think, in my life, six bouts of training for public speaking, and I still feel like a complete amateur
Starting point is 00:03:15 when I first go on a stage. You'd hope that using Zoom, it would be a bit easier. But in fact, you get all the same nerves, all the same, how many times do I need to go to the toilet? Excuse me, if that's not appropriate for the BBC. It really is more difficult to work on Zoom, but I still enjoy it. Do you? What sort of reaction though? Do you sense a reaction from the people you're talking to in those? Well, I do if it's in person, but that's what I really miss on Zoom.
Starting point is 00:03:49 Yes. I miss the nods. I miss the applause, Jane, which makes me really think, you know, why do I do this? But that validation that, you know, a smiling audience, even a standing ovation, makes my week. What is it about what you have to say that entrances audiences so much, do you think? Well, I have an interesting story and I've had an interesting life, so I hope to have interesting things to say. But mainly I am making people think about what sort of person they are, what sort of person do they want to be, how can they do things better, how can they be the best person that they can be.
Starting point is 00:04:39 And that seems to resonate with people. And I mean, I don't do it deliberately, but that's what people say. They always say I'm inspirational. But your life has been one, in many ways, of great sadness, of towering achievement, but also one that has, well, you were always very honest about things that have gone wrong. You yourself have had bouts of relatively poor mental health, haven't you? Things have been tough for you at times. Things were very tough, but it wasn't just that life was, when my son died, for example, I was certainly very depressed and not functioning for some months. But the real mental health issue goes right back to the childhood that you've mentioned, to come to England in 1939 as an
Starting point is 00:05:27 unaccompanied child refugee is such a traumatic thing that it has driven my life. It continues to drive my life. I know that I need to justify why I was saved. I need to make each day worth living. And that gives a sort of pressure that is nothing to do with what's happening this week or that I broke my leg last year. These are nasty things that happen in life. But you never know what life holds for you. And mine has been quite traumatic at times. It's such a burden psychologically. You said there you feel you have to stay with you the the depression has gone because since i've moved into philanthropy and had and spent my life on on um i don't like to say doing good it's a horrid expression but um trying to make the world a better place, then I really feel happy, something worthwhile to get up for each morning. And
Starting point is 00:06:49 although I'm not going to be on Book of the Week, I'm very proud of the things that I've written since I nominally retired. Yes, I mean, it is very much a nominal retirement yours, I think. Can we go back? Because last week I was talking to a couple of young women, tech entrepreneurs themselves, Rav Bumbra and June Angelides. And when I said that you were coming on the programme this week, there was immediate recognition and frankly, a sort of awe for you and for your life story and achievements. So take us back to 1962 and the company you founded. What were you doing, with whom and for whom? I was doing a very modest sort of mathematical clerk type of job and coming up against the so-called glass ceiling over and
Starting point is 00:07:42 over and over again, Jane. And I eventually got sick and tired of it and sort of said, I am going to set up an organisation that is the sort of organisation that I would like to work for, that is female friendly, if you like, though I didn't use that term at the time, that is positive about the way in which the world is going, and definitely something that I would want for myself and for other women. And that's precisely what I did. I set up a little company, spending less than 100 pounds in today's money, to write software, as it happened, which was my discipline. I'm a mathematician turned computer buff.
Starting point is 00:08:26 And thoroughly enjoyed creating a new sort of organisation, something that was flexible in all its ways, flexible whether you could work full-time, part-time, whether you could work from home, whether you could work when you were traveling, whether you could work summers only, winter, all forms of flexibility, including having a cafeteria of benefits so that people could say how they were on work done rather than the time that people spent in an office. And that's very relevant today as we have a lot of working from home. Well, we have a colossal amount, don't we? And the emphasis in the past has been on what's it called presenteeism. You have to be seen to be present. But in fact, who cares if you do the work at 10 to 3 in the past has been on presenteeism. You have to be seen to be present. But in fact, who cares if you do the work at 10 to 3 in the morning? If you get it done, that's fine, isn't it?
Starting point is 00:09:31 But you have to be able to measure work. And that's what some people can't do. And so you revert to, well, she wasn't in the office. She was late coming in, this sort of thing. It's a big step forward now. We've gone further in the technical world in the last few weeks, few months, I suppose, than we have in the previous 10 years. But that's what's so fascinating about you, because I think you saw the potential for something I think you called vision phones long, long ago, didn't you? I was demonstrating vision phones in 1987. So I must have been working on them in 1986.
Starting point is 00:10:12 Science, the culture of accepting science is very slow. And although people think this is an overnight happening, It has been coming very slowly. The science moves forward. Shall we do this? The culture moves forward. Can we do it in a different way? No, no, no, that doesn't work. We'll try something else.
Starting point is 00:10:33 And gradually it does take decades. And culture is like that, which is what makes it so stable. And to what degree were you dismissed, not taken seriously enough early in your career because of your sex? I can hardly describe how alien the work environment was. Women were expected to be the secretaries, to make the tea, to be very much secondary type employees. And I started work at the age of 18. And as soon as I started to make it clear that I really had ambitions for myself and for other women, the more implacably the men tried to freeze me out.
Starting point is 00:11:23 And so I had to to I learnt to dissemble I picked up this moniker of Steve Shirley rather than the double feminine of Stephanie Shirley and I've been Steve ever since and that helped to disguise until people actually
Starting point is 00:11:40 saw me walking into the room but it disguised the it's quite important to have anonymity sometimes. And if we're working with an organisation trying to get a more diverse workforce, we have to measure diversity. We have to record it. We have to publicise it.
Starting point is 00:12:04 And that's the only way in which we can actually change the culture. And it takes ages. I mean, I've been talking about women's opportunities for 50 odd years. Yes. 50 years is a long time. I've been on Woman's Hour for 13 years. And sometimes it does feel as though we're saying the same things, having the same conversations. Did you ever feel like, frankly, you were losing your fruit about the number of times you had to say the same thing, sometimes to the same people? I really was disappointed how slow the women's movement was. I've never called myself a feminist, perhaps indeed, but certainly not in word. I'm a humanist. And I really believe that every single person, male and female, can make a positive difference in the world.
Starting point is 00:12:53 And that's what I try to do. Can I ask, you are 87. I think there's people listening who didn't hear me say that at the start might be surprised to hear that. But you are. You and your husband, I gather, will be waiting for that COVID vaccine. You'll go as soon as you get the call up. Absolutely. Like a shot, we'll get that. Wonderful. Thank you very much for talking to us. Really, really appreciate it. I knew you'd be a brilliant start to the week and I'm so glad I talked to you. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Great pleasure. So to speak is the new collection of Dame Stephanie Shirley's speeches. I think she prefers Steve as she outlined in that conversation there. Now, it's a rare family that doesn't have a secret of one
Starting point is 00:13:35 sort or another. Today, we're going to tell you the story of a woman we're calling Ellen. She's in her late 40s. She wanted to tell us about a secret that has affected her life since she was a teenager. Our reporter Jo Morris met her at her home and first asked Ellen what her life was like before she knew the secret. Less complicated in some respects but also less whole because I didn't know my mum. I didn't know everything about my mum. I still choose to know because I know my mum. Part of her life isn about my mum. I still choose to know because I know my mum. Part of her life isn't known and isn't known by many people, so I feel quite honoured that she did tell me.
Starting point is 00:14:12 So, Ellen, you contacted us, you contacted Women's Hour, after our call-out for listeners with family secrets. I did. You're laughing already. Yes, I am, yeah, because I was just in the kitchen and just listening to the call-out and just laughed because I just thought, yeah, already. Yes, I am. Yeah, because I was just in the kitchen and just listening to the call out and just laughed because I just thought, yeah, I've got one of those. So can you tell me a bit about your family set up, Ellen?
Starting point is 00:14:31 What was life like growing up in your family? Pretty straightforward, really. It was mum, dad, siblings. I'm the oldest. So how many siblings have you got? I've got two. Two younger brothers. And family certainly weren't well off off but everything we wanted to do
Starting point is 00:14:47 we were provided for it was just very simply traditional it was just lots of family time together time at the beach woods just supported whatever we did although traditional in the sense that they didn't necessarily tolerate people who were different. I remember as we got older into our teens and there'd be family discussions at the table on Sunday lunch. And I always tended to be the one who defended the underdog, shall we say. And it was quite clear that I was in the minority at that point. What do you mean? Well, everybody else would very much agree with mum and dad. People who were
Starting point is 00:15:26 gay. My father's comment at one point wasn't particularly liberal that you know hanging's too good for them put them against a wall and shoot them. I'd probably been about 14, 15 when that was said but I can remember it so well. So when your dad said that did you know you were gay at that point? By that stage I knew I'd already had feelings about generally women, not really girls my own age. I'd been living my gay life quite quietly and away from the family home and I'd just got to the point where I needed to talk to my parents about my life. I didn't feel I could continue not being honest with them.
Starting point is 00:16:05 I was just standing just between the living room and the kitchen and mum was busy cooking. And I just sort of made a couple of references to my life. What did you say? I think I just alluded to the fact that I didn't come home very much and I didn't really talk about where I was or what I was doing some of the time. And did she ever think that was a bit strange? She was just, oh, no, you're busy, you're busy with your job and you're busy having fun.
Starting point is 00:16:37 And I said, well, there's a bit more to it than that, Mum. And I just eventually turned and I told my mum, OK. She then went along the lines of, make sure you're safe, make sure you're sure who you can trust, who you talk to, because I think it was still very much a time when it wasn't necessarily the done thing to really be discussing your personal life if you were gay with many people really outside your family who could be trusted. And I was concerned it would affect
Starting point is 00:17:06 my profession and I said you don't know what it's been like and she just spun around said I think I do and it was like oh and I think I said to her have you had a had a relationship with a woman and she just said yes and I think I know I then asked does anybody else know she'd know I will go to the grave with this and you are to tell nobody the way she fixed her gaze on me when she said that I knew she was serious it's one of those moments where you know when your mum says no to something even as a child there's that look and there's the tone of voice that's usually think no this this is not a conversation this is not something I can push. And then what? She said she'd had a relationship quite a long-standing relationship with a woman and that her parents had written
Starting point is 00:17:57 her a letter saying that if there was any form of relationship or anything going on because there must have been some type of talk or gossip that they didn't approve and it wasn't an appropriate way to live a life. At some point I know she said that it was her fault that I was gay. She should never have married and had children. She got a lot packed into the one conversation. She then talked about the fact that she
Starting point is 00:18:24 wouldn't have married and had children had society been like it is now and that she would have hopefully carried on with the um the woman she was with i did ask if my father knew and she said no and at that point really the conversation ended I probably took the dog out for a walk. If in doubt, take the dog out for a walk. Growing up, you had no inkling of this? No, no. You're too busy growing up and having fun and being a child. You're not thinking about your parents' love lives.
Starting point is 00:19:00 They'd been married, how many years? 40-odd years? Who expects a parent to say that? She stole your thunder, didn't she? Completely, yeah. That was my big moment. How did it feel keeping this secret, knowing the secret about your mum that only you and her knew? At times, you just... It's one of the reasons I didn't go home too often,
Starting point is 00:19:26 because if you weren't at home, I couldn't disclose it to anybody. So you were, like, sitting on the secret, weren't you, in a way? Completely, yeah. Yeah, I was the keeper. You know, in a sense, my mum had put all her trust in me. I think the reaction from my siblings would have been the big thing, because if they could be derogatory and rude to me, you know, what would they have done to their own mum I don't know it would have been interesting and yeah there were times when I you know I really had to bite my tongue what did you want to say do you really
Starting point is 00:19:54 want to speak about mum and I like that did you watch your mum though her face when they were saying things to you I can remember sometimes I just stare at her and just look at her and just think, how can you stand there and not make a comment? How can you not defend me or just tell them to stop saying it? So how long did you keep the secret full, Ellen? Nearly 20 years. 20 years? Yeah. So she said she'd take the secret to the grave, did she?
Starting point is 00:20:23 Yes, she did, yeah, to the best of my knowledge, I know of nobody else. Nobody else has ever mentioned it to me. How old were you when your mum died? Late 30s. Must have been hard at her funeral, though, knowing what you know. Yes, but on a level level it was a relief because the fact is I didn't have to worry any more in the same way. Even at my mother's funeral, there were people who were there
Starting point is 00:20:48 who, when I had been home, would walk on the other side of the road to avoid speaking to me, and yet, before they'd known about that I was gay, I'd go to their family house, I'd have meals with them, but the minute they found out I was gay, I was persona non grata. I did a reading at my mother's funeral. There were a couple of people as soon as I started reading and stood out in front of the congregation. They bowed their heads. And I don't think that's because they wanted to listen more intently. I think
Starting point is 00:21:20 it's because, like they had, they didn't want to look at me. And these were people I'd known all my life. What was the hardest thing about keeping the secret for you? The length of time I had to not say anything. Yeah, it's a big thing, isn't it? With the passing years, it gets less big, I suppose, because they're no longer here. It starts to fade in the mists of time and you then start to think, was it all true and I think the thing that sort of made
Starting point is 00:21:50 me realise how true it was was when I found the letter. After my mum died I took the things that mattered to me and one of them was a book and I was going through the book and there were obments of paper and scraps that had been put in there and then I discovered the letter. Shall I get it? It was addressed to my mum and you'd never seen this before? Never ever seen it before. She told me that it had been written. I wasn't aware that it still existed and I know a month or two before she died,
Starting point is 00:22:25 it wasn't in there then. Do you want me to read it? It was probably written in the late 50s. It's very formally addressed. It's addressed to my mother in her full name and her maiden name, underlined. This is from your grandmother? This is from my grandmother.
Starting point is 00:22:44 It says, You are fast growing up now, and your frankness of speech this morning has convinced me that your way of living is a good one. Please, dear, for our sakes as your parents, as well as your own, underlined, and your friends, keep it so. Let one and all be glad to know and mix in your company.
Starting point is 00:23:01 The good way of living is the best, underlined. Life is full of temptations and pitfalls, but scorn them. Folk love the nice way. Really many try things on you, but cling fast to your ideals, underlined. They are good ones. I was proud of you today. Please let me always be so. When people can say that it's a grand thing and know it's true never let dad and i down god bless protect and keep you always ever your devoted mum and there's four kisses so that was the letter that outlined to my mum you can't have a relationship with a woman there's a lot of pressure on your mum isn't there? Oh massive, massive, absolute massive amount of pressure. And a lot of pressure on you?
Starting point is 00:23:48 Yeah but less so now because nobody's here, nobody's here so in a sense it's my story now to choose what I do with it. I've been able to have a career, have a family and still be gay. My mum technically was denied the one thing she wanted, which was to be with probably the woman she loved. Whether that was a relationship that would have continued for the rest of her life, I don't know. Do you think she left it there for you on purpose?
Starting point is 00:24:15 I'm pretty much convinced of that because it wasn't a letter that was in the book a couple of months before she died, I know that, because it was a book I'd used. And she found it and she put it there because she knew it'd be one of the books I'd like to keep after she died I have no shadow of a doubt about that and so who have you told about this me am I the first person it's one other person knows he's a good friend don't see very often but this is an important history these things don don't get spoken about. I feel a little bit deceitful now, discussing it on one level. I have disclosed
Starting point is 00:24:53 the family secret, but if you look at a lot of oral history about gay people, it tends to still predominantly focus around men. There are hundreds of women who did exactly what my mum did all through history, and their story has yet to be written. Really, really interesting. I thought that was brilliant. The woman's name, well, we don't know it officially, but we were calling her Ellen. She was talking to our brilliant reporter, Jo Morris. And if you'd like to find out more about Family Secrets,
Starting point is 00:25:20 if you just go online, search Women's Hour Family Secrets, you'll find more. And in fact, we'll feature more of those sorts of conversations over the next couple of weeks. And on to ladies' toilets. We've all had, how can I put it, events in ladies' toilets. A lot of you just told us you'd been locked in one. I was locked in a ladies' toilet in Milan for a very boring 40 minutes about 10 or 15 years ago. It was dull.
Starting point is 00:25:44 I remember thinking, well, at least if I need the loo, I'm all right. But other than that, it was extremely boring to be locked in a toilet. Thanks to all of you who told us your stories. Shazia Mirza is here, comedian. Shazia, welcome. Good morning. Good morning, Jane. Now, you are, well, you were going to be on tour around now.
Starting point is 00:25:59 Is that right? Or early New Year? I was going to be on tour this year from March till July. And obviously that didn't happen, but it's going to happen next year from the 9th of January. Brilliant. It will happen. It will happen. In some form.
Starting point is 00:26:11 I'm going to force myself onto stages around the country, whether people turn up or not. I'm going to turn up. Yeah, and you'll be laughing at your own gags. What's new? Historian Claudia Elphick joins us too. Hi, Claudia. Good morning to you. Hello. Good morning, Jane. Thanks for having me on.
Starting point is 00:26:27 It's a great pleasure to have you. It's so important that the social history of toilets, and particularly women's toilets, because women's toilets weren't always a thing. And as soon as they became a thing, well, it just gave women incredible freedom, didn't it? Yes, absolutely. So it essentially gave women the ability to walk much further than their
Starting point is 00:26:49 home because women were basically restricted to where their home was or where their friends resided and also it gave women a lot of more power over their career choices as well. And women were a lot more comfortable, you know, at work afterwards. Yeah, of course. So to anyone who dismisses it, they simply don't know their social history. I think the big department stores were actually some of the first places to have women's toilets, weren't they? Yes. There's also recently been some of the first women's toilets, I believe, have now been given grade two listed status because of their social importance.
Starting point is 00:27:35 And there was a article by Mayor Oppenheim from The Guardian. Yeah. And she talks about the listed status now of toilets, of women's public toilets. I'm grateful to a listener called Catherine who says, does anybody else remember Tiddles? At the time, the third fattest cat in the world. He lived in the ladies toilets at Paddington Station. He was cared for by the female attendants there who would allow men into the vestibule of the ladies just to meet Tiddles. He got postcards from fans all over the world, but now seems to have been forgotten.
Starting point is 00:28:08 Well, not by our listener, Catherine. And if anybody else knows more about Tiddles, we'd welcome it. Shazia, have you got an appropriate toilet anecdote for us? Well, you know, after I've done a gig, I, you know, I've spent a lot of time in toilets. And I remember being in a a doing a gig in Sweden I was on tour there once and I was doing a gig to a group of farmers in Sweden in a village and I think they got offended at something I said right they were all men and it doesn't seem the most likely venue for you it's not a usual it's not my usual audience or gig and I. I escaped through the toilet window and they all tried to chase me.
Starting point is 00:28:47 But because they were men, they couldn't get through the window because it was a ladies' toilet and everything was really small. And they couldn't get through. So I got away with it. They were all offended and I managed to escape through the window. I should say some of the stuff we've had from listeners has been quite sad. One listener says, I was bullied at secondary school and for five years lunchtime was torture as there was never anyone to sit with. This sort of thing just
Starting point is 00:29:09 breaks your heart. One day I just couldn't face it and I ate my sandwiches in a toilet cubicle. But we do know that feeling most of us, don't we? Retreating into a lady's toilet. This is less serious, thank goodness, from Judith.
Starting point is 00:29:28 Back in 1990, our family was on holiday with friends in Cornwall. While we were there, I slipped and injured my elbow. It dislocated and shattered and I was in hospital for several days. By the way, this anecdote does lighten up. To complicate matters, I was seven months pregnant. Once out of hospital, we all ventured into Falmouth for lunch. My friend Margaret and I slipped into the loo. But to my my dismay I discovered that once my tights were around my ankles I couldn't pull them up again. With a pregnant bump and one arm in plaster from wrist to elbow it was just impossible.
Starting point is 00:29:55 Help me Margaret I called. So she locked herself in the cubicle with me and tried to pull up my tights. Unfortunately we were both almost crying with laughter. There isn't enough room. I can't get them past your bump. Hold your dress up. Quite a while later, we managed to unlock the door and emerge together. I'm not sure who looked most embarrassed, us or the ladies who'd quietly come through the door
Starting point is 00:30:18 and were waiting in the queue. No doubt imagining all kinds of sapphic moments going on behind that toilet door. This is another one. Listener, we won't mention her name. A friend of mine, I swear it wasn't me, was at the Dorchester Hotel for a charitable function with her table of girlfriends, went to the toilet
Starting point is 00:30:36 and spotted a woman we all recognised. One of us approached her with a lot of Dutch courage. I'm sure I know you. No, don't tell me who you are. I know I know you from somewhere. But before she'd finished, the woman replied very politely, I'm the Home Secretary. It was Theresa May at the time.
Starting point is 00:30:56 We should emphasise, Claudia, that toilets can be a place of refuge, as I said. Do you remember, have you any special toilet memories yourself oh I'm afraid it's also this also this story also takes place in Sweden so um a few years ago I decided that I was going to go traveling around some around Scandinavia yeah went to Denmark first and then I went to Stockholm um and in Stockholm, they have quite a lot of the toilets are actually gender neutral. And I had no idea when first going in. And one place, like, I just went in.
Starting point is 00:31:40 Yes. And I expected, I had no idea that men were there. Right. in yes and i expected i had no idea that men were there right so i i just because both of the you know signs were up and i thought that i'd walked into the men's toilets and then i saw women coming through and i thought that i was supposed to go on a particular side and i was absolutely yeah i was just petrified OK. I think it can be when you're not expecting it. That kind of thing can be frightening. Yeah. Go on. Yeah. No, it was just me standing there just utterly confused at what. What did I just go into a men's toilet? Yeah. Was I supposed to go on a particular side?
Starting point is 00:32:23 I had no idea. um yes it's certainly something you clearly can't forget um Shazia is it toilet is it loo I never lavatory what do you say I mean look I'm from Birmingham it's um it's a bog toilet hole whatever is available I remember being at Buckingham Palace once though once twice three times I've met the Queen three times she doesn't realize she's met me before uh she probably thinks I'm Lenny Henry I mean the thing is I turned up to Buckingham Palace and the courtiers who were looking after the queen they said to me you know if she comes around if you need to go to the toilet just say loo don't say toilet because that's what she says loo okay so everybody just Lou. But, you know, I don't say that. I just say toilet.
Starting point is 00:33:08 I have to say, if the Queen says Lou, then that's definitive, isn't it? That's what we should be saying. The Queen says it. So it goes. Yeah. OK. Here's one. I vividly remember the ladies' public toilets in the newly built Coventry shopping precinct back in the 50s, as well as the normal individual cubicles. There were at least two larger cubicles that incorporated a child-sized small toilet as well as a normal toilet. It was brilliant for mums with small children.
Starting point is 00:33:35 What an innovation all those years ago. I wonder why they didn't catch on everywhere. I think that's probably a good point. I mean, I'm not sure we've nailed down, Shazia, whether women's toilets are different from men's in the sense that are we assuming remember being locked in a toilet after a gig and everybody doing a rundown review of my act and how they could have done better punchlines. And I was doing a gig in Zurich once
Starting point is 00:34:14 and I remember being in the toilet and these women coming in and going, who does she think she is? Shirley Bussey? And I thought, Shirley Bussey? She doesn't even do jokes. And they were doing all of this rundown of my act.
Starting point is 00:34:28 That is excruciating. And I came out and took a bow. I said, thank you very much, everyone. I bet that shut them up. And it did. Shazia, it will be brilliant when you are back on tour. Because I know you were saying earlier that it's not been an easy year for show-offs, has it? No, I think the thing I've missed most
Starting point is 00:34:43 is the sound of laughter. I normally hear that every night of my life and I haven't heard it for nine months. Oh dear, terrible. Okay, it will come back in your life. Thank you very much. Thank you. And thanks to Claudia Elphick. And you can keep telling us about what's happened to you in toilets
Starting point is 00:34:58 or what your view of toilets is. 84844 at BBC Women's Hour on social media. Now, last week, the programme did talk about female virologists and vaccinologists being at the front of all important vaccine research. Well this week as you know the coronavirus vaccine is being rolled out. GP
Starting point is 00:35:16 Sarah Jarvis, Clinical Director of Patient Info is with us. Sarah, good morning to you. Good morning. Can I just check in first of all with what the listeners have asked? I think this is really important. We know that pregnant women are not having the COVID vaccine, will not be given it. They're not being offered it. No, are not being offered it. That's the important thing. Now, just very briefly, why not? So firstly, in the majority of cases, pregnant women are in a relatively low risk group because the single biggest risk factor
Starting point is 00:35:44 is age. There are other underlying health conditions that increase your risk. With flu, we know that pregnant women tend to get it much more severely and it can cause really nasty consequences. That doesn't seem to be the case for COVID, certainly not in the first two trimesters. So that's one reason because they're not particularly vulnerable. Secondly, because the studies haven't been done. And we want to know that the specific studies have been done in pregnancy so that we are absolutely confident about the safety in pregnant women as well as in other groups. Okay. So to be clear about this, vaccines are never, can never be tested on pregnant women.
Starting point is 00:36:21 So they can be tested on pregnant women, but what will probably happen, many, many drugs are not tested on pregnant women these days. Ever since thalidomide, it's been incredibly difficult to test drugs, test any drugs on pregnant women. If there's something completely life-threatening where there is no other option, it might end up being given to a pregnant woman. And we have what's called the yellow card system and a pregnancy follow-up system. So if somebody, for instance, has the vaccine and then discovers the next week that completely unbeknown to them they were pregnant,
Starting point is 00:36:53 they would then be followed up to see if there were any safety signals. But in the case of COVID, they may be doing some testing on pregnant women, but it would be very specific and they would know all about the risks and benefits. They would completely understand that this is a different cohort and that pregnant women may behave differently. All right, I think you may have already answered this question,
Starting point is 00:37:14 but this is from Sarah who says, I'm trying for a baby. Do we know the vaccine is safe for those in this position who are trying and may become pregnant after having the first dose of the vaccine? So there isn't really any reason to believe that this would be a problem. If it who are trying and may become pregnant after having the first dose of the vaccine. So there isn't really any reason to believe that this would be a problem. If it were a live vaccine, that would be completely different. So for instance, a yellow fever vaccine is a live vaccine. But here we're not even giving dead virus, we're giving dead bits of virus, if you like. So it's the spike protein from the coronavirus in the Pfizer-BioNTech. So from our perspective, there is no reason to believe that it would be a problem. However, going forward, there will be follow-up. Of course, anyone who has the vaccine and
Starting point is 00:37:56 subsequently discovers they're pregnant will be followed up. Right. And to just be absolutely clear, let's say you've had your first dose, you wouldn't, and then you find had your first dose, you wouldn't. And then you find out you're pregnant. You would not go back for the second one. We would suggest that you talk to your doctor unless you would or were at exceptionally high risk. We would always recommend that's the current guidance that you wait until after your pregnancy has finished. So after you've had your baby. Right. You did mention that flu can be very nasty in pregnant women. So pregnant women should get the flu jab. Oh, they absolutely should
Starting point is 00:38:31 get the flu jab in exactly the same way that, for instance, the whooping cough vaccine is not just protecting you, it's protecting your unborn child. The fact with the flu vaccine is women do behave differently when they get flu. They are at much higher risk of complications and this can protect them and their baby. And of course, we may think we've had no flu this year. Well, A, it's likely to be quieter, but that doesn't mean it's gone away. And B, worst flu month is always January slash February. So we are not there yet. There is still time if you're pregnant to go and get that vaccine. Right. And Laura asks, is the COVID vaccine okay for people with an autoimmune disease? I have lupus SLE. Yeah. So it's a really good question, a very good question, Laura, because of course, there are a lot of people either who have suppressed immune systems or who have autoimmune
Starting point is 00:39:20 diseases. And the answer is that there have been quite a lot of people with either with autoimmune diseases? And the answer is that there have been quite a lot of people with these, either with autoimmune conditions or with suppressed immune systems in the trials. And thus far, there is no evidence of a problem. Now, with a suppressed immune system, the concern is that you won't create the same response. You won't be protected in the same way because your immune system is damped down and it can't gear itself up in response to the vaccine. But there's no reason to believe that there should be an overreaction by the body in autoimmune diseases. It is not a contraindication. What about a woman's, and some people I know will take issue with this, but let's go with the reality, which is that women in many families do have a
Starting point is 00:40:05 role both to younger and older generations in terms of caring and in giving advice. What is your message to those women who might be trying to convince, for example, their elderly parents to go for this vaccine? Talk about it. Talk about it and be honest. Let's have the conversation. Find out what it is that they are concerned about. I have given the argument about why this is not too fast, the development of this vaccine, so many times that sometimes I bore myself. But really, find out what their concerns are, and then you can address them. Have it on your Zoom call on a Saturday night when you have supper together over Zoom, or indeed, have it over Christmas when you do get together.
Starting point is 00:40:47 Well, you say you're weary of giving it. Here's your opportunity to give it again. To those people who say, well, it has been very quick. Why is Britain the first country to approve this? I am concerned. I'm 83. I'm not sure I want to be somebody who has... What do you say? What do you say? I know you're tired of it, but say it again. No, no, not tired of it at all. I just think other people might be tired of hearing me say it so firstly we got the genetic fingerprint at record speed the moment it was available it was made available to every scientist in the world back in january often it will take months because every company has to develop it themselves secondly these trials involve thousands, tens of thousands of people,
Starting point is 00:41:25 so they're hugely costly. So the development of the vaccine and the trials particularly are really costly. Government's worth throwing money at it. Thirdly, they were able to use the research that has been used for SARS, for MERS, for Ebola, for rabies, for malaria vaccines, all of these vaccines, the research was there and ready to be very quickly adapted. And that research, don't forget SARS and MERS, those are other coronaviruses, very similar technology. Thirdly, or am I fourthly by now? Normally, it takes a long time to get enough people to sign up for vaccine trials, because you need 10s of 1000s. We had 330,000 people in the UK alone signing up for the vaccines,
Starting point is 00:42:06 and they included me, by the way. I've had mine, and I hope I got the real thing, but I don't know because I'm in a trial. Fourthly, normally, if you have a vaccine trial, you have to wait until enough people in the placebo arm have got the disease in order to work out if there's a difference between the placebo arm and the real thing. So many people getting COVID, we didn't need to wait very long. And finally, with the MHRA, they haven't only been looking at this in the last two days, they have been gearing up for this for months. So they were absolutely prepared for a rapid response. Sorry to rush you, just want to squeeze one more in. What about the vaccine when you're breastfeeding? Yes or no? As far as we we're aware it hasn't been tested on breastfeeding
Starting point is 00:42:45 i can't see any reason at all why it would go through breast milk but don't forget the vast majority of women who are breastfeeding are not going to be in a priority category because they're likely to be certainly under 65 but certain likely to be under 50 and of course unless you're in an at-risk group then you wouldn't be offered it at the moment under 50 anyway right exactly you'd have some time to wait to be offered it. Thank you so, so much. Really appreciate it. That is GP Sarah Jarvis talking about the COVID vaccine. We know that it's about to be made available to some people in the UK this week. I went for my over 50s NHS flu jab on Saturday at the medical centre, and it was all run very efficiently.
Starting point is 00:43:27 And the doctor who jabbed me did say it was a practice run for how they were going to dispense the coronavirus vaccine. So if that was anything to go by, it should be quite slick. And I'm very glad I've had my flu jab for nothing. So that's excellent. Right. Toilets. Oh, my goodness me. Have we we've really tapped into something here. I think I'm probably going to have to say no more emails on the subject of toilets after today for a while. Emma can deal with your toilet thoughts in 2021. Do people remember Tiddles the Paddington cat? Oh, yes, they do. Rachel says, I remember Tiddles in the late 80s.
Starting point is 00:44:04 I travelled from Gloucestershire to London once a month for percussion lessons. Of course you did, Rachel. I'd always pop into the ladies at Paddington to say hello to Tiddles, whether or not I needed the toilet. From Roz, Tiddles was there for years. He was indeed huge. And there were letters and postcards stuck up all round his basket. From Daisy, as a small girl, I travelled to my grandmother's via Paddington Station. I vividly remember making a pilgrimage to visit the enormous cat. The cat, Daisy says she, but we think it was a boy. Anyway, she was looked after by the cleaners and slept halfway down the stairs.
Starting point is 00:44:47 On to the subject generally of toilets. Toilet cleaners, says Mem, are generally really underrated. Town councils should provide them for free and supervised. The availability of public toilets should be a free human right. Incontinence is a problem for so many people, women and men. Yep, that's true. Another listener, more about Tiddles. There was a sign next to him that said, I can run and jump. But actually, nobody ever saw him budge from his basket. Judith says, on a French railway station in a bid to save money, I slipped into the loo cubicle on the platform as somebody exited without paying. As somebody exited without paying, right.
Starting point is 00:45:31 I'd no sooner sat down than the lights went out and the self-cleaning mechanism started. I emerged eventually covered in disinfectant and soaked from the cleaning jets which had sprayed me from all angles in the dark. Much hilarity from my travelling companions ever since I've paid the euro. Quite, there you go. My mother told me a secret 12 years ago, says another listener, in relation to our conversation with the listener we called Ellen. The information made sense of many of the mysteries of my childhood. My mother is now 92 i haven't told anyone it isn't hard to keep a secret um okay well i don't know really is it
Starting point is 00:46:14 hard to keep a secret it can be can't it uh and i frankly in but many times in my life i found it impossible to keep secrets a more serious uh toilet one here from Lucy who says, I suffered from selective mutism as a teen and into adulthood and by year 11 it had all got too much and I spent many lunch times in a toilet isolated in a school corridor. I also spent much of my college years hiding in the toilet as a place of sanctuary. It's a fascinating area, this. I'm sure dissertations and PhD studies have been written on this subject, but there's clearly much more to be uncovered here.
Starting point is 00:46:59 Thank you all very much. A short one today because, frankly, in the interest of transparency, I've got to get on. I've got other things to do. So thank you very much for listening. The programme is back in podcast and live radio form tomorrow. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.
Starting point is 00:47:31 Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.
Starting point is 00:47:46 It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.

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