Woman's Hour - Ladies of Letters with Tessa Peake-Jones and Gwyneth Strong; Caroline Nokes MP on Angela Rayner

Episode Date: April 25, 2022

Only Fools and Horses stars Tessa Peake-Jones and Gwyneth Strong will perform together in a touring stage adaptation of Ladies of Letters. The pair famously played Raquel and Cassandra - the wives of Del Boy and Rodney. They join Emma to discuss the stage show, working together again, and of course, the iconic sitcom.The Prime Minister has been in touch with the Labour Deputy leader, Angela Rayner -- to make it clear he regards claims about her reported in yesterday's Mail on Sunday as misogynistic. The paper said some Tory MPs had suggested she tried to distract the Prime Minister in the Commons by crossing and uncrossing her legs. Emma gets the reaction to the story of Conservative MP and Chair of the Women and Equalities Select Committee, Caroline Nokes,Today the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Women in the Penal System publishes a report on women’s health and well-being in prison. Co-chair of the group, Conservative MP Jackie Doyle-Price talks exclusively to Woman’s Hour about the steps needed to improve to the health of women offenders, and prevent increasingly high levels of self-harm. Why despite many reports over the last fifteen years are these needs still not being met?How has the pandemic impacted the prevalence of child sexual abuse imagery online? Emma discusses the findings of the upcoming Internet Watch Foundation annual report with BBC Look East reporter Jon Ironmonger, who has been given exclusive access before its publication on Tuesday.In our series Threads we have been finding out the stories behind the items of clothing that women can't bear to part with. Today. Lisa on a black and white checked jacket which her Mum bought for her first trip abroad in 1967 and which Lisa commandeered years later for a job in an upmarket department store.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello, good morning. It's lovely to be back with you after a few days off. And it's good to know that having legs as a woman at work is news. Or rather, in the case of Deputy Labour Leader Angela Rayner, cause for comparisons with Sharon Stone in that infamous scene in Basic Instincts where she crosses and uncrosses her legs without any knickers on. If you haven't got a clue about what I'm going on about, let me enlighten you.

Or not. How women are perceived to behave and dress in Parliament made headlines yesterday when unnamed Conservative MPs briefed the Mail on Sunday's political editor, Glenn Owen, claiming Angela Rayner likes to distract the Prime Minister when he's at the dispatch box by deploying a fully clothed parliamentary equivalent of Sharon Stone's move. One MP said she knows she cannot compete with Boris's Oxford Union debating training, but she, talking about Angela Rayner, has other skills which he lacks, claiming she had admitted as much when enjoying drinks with those unnamed MPs on the Commons terrace.

Charming. Angela Rayner has denied the claims, tweeting that such briefings were perverted smears. I should say we invited her on this morning, but she was unable to join us. Who we can hear from is Caroline Noakes, the Conservative MP and chair of the cross-party Women and Equalities Parliamentary Committee, who, speaking to me just before I came on air, says she buys trousers for work deliberately and skirts that are of a particular length to avoid any remarks or press coverage

that would sexualise her or be about her appearance rather than what she's actually saying. So let me ask you this. Do you have to resort to such workarounds, if I can call them those, in your life? Do you try to cover up, to neutralize, to not make it a thing that you are a woman wherever you are working? Or do you do the opposite? You don't think any behavioral change is required and perhaps you go the other way in some ways? You don't think any behavioural change is required and perhaps you go the other way in some ways. I don't know what that quite means. I don't know where you work. I don't know how this affects you, if it affects you. But we all know some of

the workarounds women have had to do and it seems still have to do certainly in public life. Perhaps the pandemic's also changed things, of course, if you've been able to work from home and relieved you of some of those pressures of how to dress or how not to dress in your workplace. I also remember not long ago, a woman taking action when she was forced to wear high heels, I believe, on a reception desk. These are the sorts of things around the psychology, if you like, of the way women are perceived through how we dress or how we don't dress. And then what is said about us. Tell me what you do how this perhaps relates to your life and how you think about how you'll be perceived it's not just your appearance

it's how that will be interpreted text me here at women's i'd love to hear from you i've missed hearing from you over the last week 84844 that's the number you need on social media at bbc women's hour or email me through the women's hour website. Also on today's programme, Cassandra and Raquel from Only Fools and Horses, aka Tessa Peete-Jones and Gwyneth Strong, are reunited on stage for a Radio 4 classic, no less, and will be joining me in the studio shortly. Don't miss that.

And we'll bring you exclusive access to a report about a particularly disturbing impact of the pandemic on young girls that we think you need to hear about and make sure as many people know about as possible. But first, we're told the Prime Minister has been in touch with Labour's Deputy Leader Angela Rayner to make it clear he regards claims about her in yesterday's mail on Sunday as misogynistic. The paper reported that some Tory MPs had suggested she tried to distract the Prime Minister in the way I've just described. And I should say this morning, a minister, Chris Philp,

has said that those who had given that briefing, if they can be discovered, of course, because journalists protect their sources, will be disciplined. Well, I did speak to Caroline Noakes, as I said, the chair of the Women and Equality Select Committee, just before coming on air, and I started by asking her about her reaction to the story when she first saw it. Oh, I was just horrified by it and almost by every element of it,

not least that this had been through some sort of editorial process, presumably, where it was decided OK to publish a piece of rank misogyny. I suppose the question could be if that journalist has been fed that, as you put it, rank misogyny by those in your ranks. He is the political editor of the Mail on Sunday. Why shouldn't he write it?

Well, I mean, firstly, anybody who has chosen to try to peddle that as a story should be ashamed of themselves. I think that's the first problem. The second problem is that the Mail on Sunday is a publication which has a long history of publishing deeply misogynistic articles, photographs, commentary about female politicians. And I really think that they can do

better than that. They can do better than choosing to print photographs that effectively are taken up Angela Rayner's skirt, the image they chose to use, one of which was taken on this morning sofa, which effectively looks straight up Angela's skirt again, emphasising her legs. I just think that even if peddled that horrible story by a Member of Parliament, the Mail onay should have known better than to run it well it's just also it seems to be several conservative mps i mean there's been one who is quoted as giving the remarks and and i suppose i'm putting to you don't don't shoot the messenger there'll be those who completely agree that the way that the story's been presented the

headline that's chosen the comparisons with the whole basic instinct side of things. But it is, according to this reporter, coming from the Conservative MP ranks. And there's no such better thing as disinfectant than sunlight and airing those sorts of things. Don't you think if we have MPs, elected members of parliament, saying that sort of thing, that we should hear about it? Well, and they should be brave enough to say publicly who they are. And to be frank, the chief whip needs to be taking action against them because it wasn't just the misogyny. It was the denigration of Angela for her debating skills, which are actually very good.

She's one of the best performers that Labour has in the Commons. And it just, the whole tone of it, people going out to try and attack an individual personally. I think it's so important that in politics we debate the issues, not the individual. And the Prime Minister, as has been reported, has been in touch with Angela Rayner. There also have been a tweet put out and she's thanked him for that. There's been understood to be back and forth. What do you think should happen now, if anything? Well, look, the prime minister has been in touch with Angela

and I'm really pleased about that. And he condemned the comments as well. So that is, I'm really pleased that the prime minister has done that. I think it's important, though, that colleagues and the media learn the lesson of this, is that this is intolerable behaviour. This is not the way we should be seeking to conduct our politics. And I think it's important that we all play a part in that, that the colleagues do not peddle that sort of horrible, misogynistic line to the media,

and the media should rise above it and not report that. Do you have a particular issue I suppose the group of journalists that the so-called lobbyists they're called of course you'll be very familiar with are you calling for actions on that side of things as well? Yeah look I think that there is as much a problem with sexism and misogyny in the lobby as there is in wider Westminster. And the treatment that female journalists sometimes go through at the hands of the lobby is absolutely appalling. But I think that the Mail on Sunday in particular has a real attitude problem towards women. It frequently peddles misogyny. I myself have had photographs used by the Mail on Sunday that showed the tops of my holdups completely unnecessary and, to be quite frank, designed to demean and humiliate a woman.

And that's something that I simply think is unacceptable in 21st century reporting of politics. and the journalists in this particular instance, but I recognise there's a much bigger organisation that you're talking about, is not available this morning to come on the programme and no comments being given by the Mail on Sunday. Because as I understand it, you don't necessarily think he should have his parliamentary lobby pass anymore. Is that right? No, I don't think he should. And I've written to the Speaker, I wrote to the Speaker yesterday

highlighting this article in particular, but a pattern of behaviour from the Mail on Sunday and saying I think it would be an incredibly powerful message to send from the Speaker of the House of Commons to withdraw that pass. Again, as I pointed out at the beginning, some would say reporting what he has told, the problem's actually not with the messenger,

it's with those in your party. I suppose we've covered both of those areas, but I think what you've shone a light on is being a female MP, how your interactions are covered sometimes versus how male MPs are covered. And I was looking back through from Theresa May through to MPs on the other side, if a woman seems to wear a top that may show she has breasts, or even just when legs are out. I mean, some will remember Nicola Sturgeon and Theresa May being pictured together, the so-called Legxit headline, which I believe was actually in the mail,

not the mail on Sunday, but memory may serve me wrong. I suppose there's a question here about how women are still talked about and treated and whether you think that does impact those who are presently in parliament do you think it makes women around you change the way you are in any way well i've just come from uh the lorraine show where i very deliberately wore trousers whenever i go and buy clothes that i might wear at work i make sure that when i sit down that the skirt is long enough to not be flashing my thighs at people. And that's the real challenge is that we're all acutely aware that male MPs will be reported upon

for what they say and female MPs will be reported upon for how they look and what they wear. And it's very obvious double standards which simply shouldn't exist. I suppose then there would be those listening who are thinking we shouldn't be having to change the way we are but this is the world that we live in. Well we shouldn't be having to change the way that we are. The reality is that for women in Westminster too many of us feel forced to do so, feel forced to conform to an image that the media wants of female politicians because Because if you don't, if you don't, then you will end up with the sort of hideous article that has been written about Angela, which was just blatant misogyny.

But also not just the media, again, those within your own party, it would seem, who have that view. Well, look, there were horrendous comments made about Angela, allegedly by unnamed sources within the Conservative Party. I've been very clear. I think they should hang their heads in shame. But I also think that the media, the headline of Legsit with Nicola Sturgeon and Theresa May,

I think when we first saw, well, indeed, the Blair Babes of 97 described as babes. 2010, they were Cameron cuties, not reported upon for their ability, for their intellect, for the struggles and challenges that many of those women had faced just getting to parliament,

but reported upon as if they were just decoration. And you want to blame this on Tory MPs. I think that the media has a really unfortunate... Oh, no, no, I'm not here to say who want to blame us on Tory MPs, I think that the media has a really unfortunate... Oh, no, no, I'm not here to say who's to blame and cast the percentage, if you like. It's just, I think it's important to stress to our listeners that this was from or cited to Conservative MPs as well as, of course, how the media have chosen to present it,

in this instance, the Mail on Sunday. Yeah, and it just gives you a sense of the scale of the challenge that we as female parliamentarians still face. And it's still OK. Do you think that's also, and you may think this is overblowing it, but do you think that's off-putting or could be off-putting to women coming into public life or politics? Because, of course, you're talking to me right now.

It's not dimmed how you're going about your business and nor should it. That's the point. So I had a fascinating conversation with a constituent on Saturday who was complaining that there weren't enough female candidates to vote for in the local elections coming up. You know, she's right. And I was trying to explain to her the challenges there are in encouraging women to stand. And we need more women to come forward. We need brilliant female parliamentarians to have the confidence to put their heads above the parapet. But when you get incidents like this, it discourages them. And it forces us to all consider whether this is actually worth doing. If you're just going to be treated like a piece of meat, reported upon as if you are nothing more than a decoration in the commons, then it really does undermine the

brilliant work that goes on across all parties, the campaign like the 50-50 Parliament, trying to get more women to be involved in public life. And it just feels like yesterday felt like a massive step backwards. I should say a full list of all candidates are available on the BBC website, as we are, of course, in the very close run up to the elections. Final thought from you today. There's reports that the Health Secretary, Sajid Javid, is planning to appoint a menopause, or rather with regards to what's going on with the shortage of HRT.

I believe you're having some issues on that front. Manage to lay your hands on some. It's very serious for a lot of women right now. Look, it is really serious. And I've been inundated with offers from brilliant, generous women wanting to provide me with some supplies of HRT. What I want is an HRT czar who's going to solve the supply crisis. We shouldn't be looking for alternatives. We shouldn't be reduced to swapping HRT czar who's going to solve the supply crisis. We shouldn't be looking for alternatives. We shouldn't be reduced to swapping HRT in car parks. This is about making sure that we have consistency of supply because this isn't an unexpected spike.

This is a growing demand that has been building over the last few years. And so it's absolutely crucial that we get not just a czar in place, but somebody who's going to bring about immediate action. Have you got any yet? No, I run out tomorrow, but a very lovely colleague has promised to bring me some this week to Westminster. Now, look, I feel really uncomfortable about that.

I feel really awkward that I'm now reliant on somebody else to give me the drugs that I need. And, you know, all the medical advice would be, do not do this. You should not be swapping drugs. Fortunately, she's prescribed the same stuff as I am. So that isn't a problem. But it is a problem when you can't even go online and buy it from private providers because they don't have any either. So this isn't about a lack of cash. It's about a lack of the actual physical supply of the drug that we need. Extra's an extraordinary insight there with what's going on with conservative female MPs.

I presume it's a conservative colleague, maybe it's not. Having to trade a bit of HRT to make sure they've got enough drugs themselves. It's affecting those in Parliament right down to those who are very far from the corridors of power but very much in need of HRT. We will of course stay with that story. You were listening to Caroline Noakes there, the Conservative MP and Chair of the Women and Equalities Committee. Many of you getting in touch with regards to what she had to say

about clothing and how you think about how you present yourselves even though you wish you didn't have to. Julia also wanted to add this point saying, when I first heard this report yesterday about Angela Rayner and these comparisons with basic instinct it struck me there was class snobbery involved as well as misogyny.

She can't compete with Boris the old Etonian and an Oxford man, so she has to use the methods of a seductress. Sadly, it doesn't surprise me that this non-story appeared in the mail. A message from Carol. How depressing. In 1970, I was being introduced to my new colleagues at a home office lab and I was told by one of the bosses he didn't employ women as they were too distracting.

Has nothing changed in all these years? But Jennifer says, is the comment about Angela Rayner equally insulting to Boris Johnson, suggesting he's so easily distracted from serious debate in Parliament by a woman's legs? Another message here. I'm a secondary school teacher, and I definitely consider what I wear. Low-cut tops, short skirts, etc. would invite unwanted glances and and comments and I think would be an unfair distraction for the boys I teach.

That said they are 14, not members of parliament, who should know better and I was told never to go to a garage to get your car serviced. Dress down, dress up, full makeup, high heels and you will not be ignored which had been my experience when taking the family truck for its regular checks. It's a different way of looking at it and and I'm sure there's many stories like that. Yes, of course I change the way I dress when I go to building sites as an ecologist. I wear the baggiest clothes possible, tie my hair back and tuck it into my hard hat. It's horrible to be openly stared and leered at when you're at work, but it's hard in the hot weather. And Rita's got a problem with manspreading. She said it upsets her when men are being interviewed on television,

on even, you know, lighthearted quiz programmes, or on buses or trains or in the theatre or cinema, and then they open their legs, presumably to delight the spectator. As I say, Angela Rayner had her legs crossed. She could teach them a thing or two about etiquette and good behaviour. 84844 is the number you need to keep those messages coming in. Thank you so much for them so far about some of the amendments perhaps you wish you didn't have to do, but have learned to do and been doing for some time in the workplace. But a new report out today that we wanted to bring

to you paints a very bleak picture indeed of women's lives in prison and it's written by the all-party parliamentary group on women in the penal system and the co-chair of that group and conservative MP joins me now Jackie Doyle-Price. Good morning. Good morning Emma. Perhaps we'll return to some of those discussions at the end of this one with regards to prison but there are shocking details in this report and one of the ones i wanted to start with was about the number of women who are in prison and actually should be in secure mental hospitals yeah absolutely and it's actually really quite shocking that in 21st century britain this still happens um there is provision in the bail act for people to be remanded in custody for their own protection.

And we've been struggling to get data out of the government about this. And the inspector of prisons actually was sufficientlyanded in custody, having not committed an offence which would bring a custodial sentence, but being remanded because of their own protection when they should really be in mental health institutions. 68 out of three prisons. That suggests to me we have a massive problem here. And frankly, you know, we should not be depriving the liberties of people who need mental health support and mental health care. So this is something that we really just need to grip and take forward as part of our ongoing ambitions to improve mental health services for all people suffering from mental ill health. What are you particularly calling for on that point?

Are you calling for a change in the law? Yes, we want that provision in the bail act to be moved because, frankly, we shouldn't be having a legal provision to take people's liberties away when they're not guilty of anything. So that's a frank statement of principle. But I think really, you know, all credit to the MOJ for this. You know, the discussions I've been having with them have been very constructive. The real issue here lies with the NHS and the Department of Health. These women, vulnerable women, are being taken into prison because there's nowhere else for them. And it is all about getting this mental health support right, getting intervention earlier so that people aren't in a crisis. That's really the biggest challenge, but also making sure there's sufficient mental health

inpatient beds where we need them. So that's how those two, if you like, link up. And that's what you've been looking at. But I suppose just taking a step back, and even in the year and a half or so I've been presenting Woman's Hour, we've covered lots of these stories from different angles about what's going on in women's prisons. And for instance, how the female offender strategy has been introduced through to, you know, women bringing their cell bells for assistance and not being heard. I suppose, how are we still in the situation

where so many women are still not meant to be there or could be in a different situation but are in prison? I think there's a cultural issue here about how we handle all these issues. I mean, the truth of the matter is, is that, you know, people have a lot of prejudice about people who end up in prison, which is all that they're all seriously bad people and need locking away. When we look at women, most of the women in prison are actually victims of crime themselves. They end up in a very dysfunctional way of life and they find themselves in prison. And for me, when I look at our prisons, I don't see thousands of hardened criminals. Of course, there are some of those. i actually see symptoms of state failure and i think one of the problems we have to grapple with is that actually collective is a society collective is political class we need to prioritize them more because frankly it's just too easy to

look the other way and all we are doing is compounding the harm done to vulnerable people. But worse than that, we are setting people up for a life of ongoing criminal and dysfunctional behaviour and that just isn't good enough. Of course, some would argue similarly, not for the same reasons about men in prison as well. But your point that I wanted to pick up on, and I know there are some specifics around women that you've made there, not least about being victims of crime themselves.

Also, I wanted to reflect on the record levels of self-harm as well, which is particular to women's prisons. But just that point you made about the political class having a view and looking the other way. Of course, we've had a Conservative government now for more than a decade. You are a Conservative MP. Has this just been a lack of will or a judgment on those in prison? To be honest, I'll be brutally frank with you Emma, you know, until you actually look in detail about these things, you don't, you know, little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You know, I come at this from being the former Minister for Mental Health and the former

Minister responsible for offender health. And I was acutely conscious that it wasn't good enough. I was, you know, and it's it can't be changed overnight. There's lots of things about resource and workforce and culture that needs to be done. But you have to have the will to start with. And I think one of the difficulties we have is you know yes you are right we've had a Conservative government for more than a decade but unfortunately you know focus has moved on with changes of personnel and changes of circumstances you know we had a massive focus on mental health for quite some time but since we've been dealing with a pandemic it's fallen back so the really good work that Simon Wesley did on reviewing the Mental Health Act, which is actually fundamental to this, has been put on the back burner. So, you know,

part and parcel of producing this report is, again, is about focusing mind, because I think most people who, you know, most people in the political class who actually do want to deliver good public services will be horrified to hear that, you know, people are being remanded in custody when they haven't committed a criminal offence. And that's why we've produced this report really to get that more firmly into public debate. Into public debate, but what changes? I mean, you've mentioned about the bail act and having that moved and what needs to happen. You mentioned the MOJ, Ministry of Justice, but also the Department for Health. What else are you seeking with this report? Because some of this, if you already know about this area, you know it. Yes. Well, one of the things that I was always very keen on was

making sure we had enough support in the community upstream. And this is more about supporting wellbeing as much as anything. So for example, we know that more than half of women in prison are victims of sexual abuse. We know that women, victims of sexual abuse, find it difficult to access rape support services. And yet we also know that if you have that upstream counselling and support early on, the chances of you ending up in a very severe mental ill health crisis will be diminished. And let's be brutally honest, this is all better value for the taxpayer if we get that support further up. So I'm very, very, very prominent in demanding better services for victims of sexual violence. But I also think we need to remind the government that, you know, our whole

prison system is designed around imprisoning thuggish, violent men in a cell six foot by four foot. Whereas when we're looking at women prisoners, they tend to be convicted of sentences which are not violent. They tend to be convicted of things which are short sentences. Ten years ago, there was a recognition that women needed to be housed in more therapeutic settings than traditional prisons. But we seem to have gone backwards because the government's new prison strategy envisages investing in 500 new prison places for women. So, you know, we've got to just get back to that more person-centred culture. If we are really serious about rehabilitating people and really serious about doing the right thing by

people for whom the state's failed, we've got to think again about our prison policy. But perhaps people don't feel this government is really serious when maybe they open up today's newspapers, for instance, in The Times. It's been said that the Sue Gray report, that Whitehall report into lockdown breaking parties in Downing Street, is so damning that senior officials believe it could leave Boris Johnson with no choice but to resign as prime minister. Well, it's for backbench members of parliament like myself to make sure the government does get serious about this.

And, you know, I will continue to have my conversations with ministers to make sure that, you know, as far as where we're looking at how the criminal justice system works and where we're looking at the provision of health, we are doing the best we possibly can. I totally recognise that. I suppose it's just when, you know, the country was under the severest restrictions,

and I know everybody knows this almost backwards now, but this report hasn't been fully put out yet. It was put on hold until Scotland Yard completed its own investigations. We know now the prime minister and the chancellor have been fined. But it's about the events and the culture of number 10 under his leadership. And when you talk about, you know, going backwards and when you talk about attention having been diverted, people put those things together, don't they? Not unfairly. And I always say that sunlight is the best disinfectant.

I mean, to be brutally frank, I think it's been very ill-judged the way that this whole thing's been handled because we've now been talking about this for about four months, whereas, you know, if we are open and transparent about failings right from the first and fix them, we would do a lot more to improve trust. So, yes, I mean, I would be the first to criticise

the culture of how this has been handled. I think to an extent there has been some changes, but we are still dealing with a legacy of a failure to be upfront and honest about these things in the first instance. As a Conservative MP, have you written a letter of no confidence in the prime minister? That's not something I would do before I told him. So you haven't? The short answer to that is no.

But I mean, to be honest, Emma, you know, I was very open at the time of the leadership election. I didn't support Boris Johnson to be prime minister, but the king is dead, long live the king. As far as I'm concerned, it's up to those colleagues who did, who regret it, to put in their letters. But the point, I suppose, will be, do you support a change of personnel at this point? That's another thing, the reality of the life that we're in at the moment. Well, he's had a fine for having birthday cake with his colleagues seven weeks after he nearly died.

I think the way that he's handled it, the lack of contrition and honesty in the first place is regrettable. But do I think that seven weeks after he nearly died that he's had birth decay? I think that's a pretty high penalty to pay, frankly. But this is where it would be so much more advantageous to see the entirety of the Sugri report so we can actually take a proper judgment on the whole fact. Well, I ask you about that because of that report in The Times today saying it is so damning, he will have to quit and to get your response, because it also feeds into some of what you were saying with regards to women in prisons and trying to, as you put it, get attention back onto that and the culture of leadership around that. Thank you for taking us through some of

that report, of course, all publicly available. And I'm sure we will talk again at the Conservative MP Jackie Doyle-Price there and co-chair of the group, the all party parliamentary group on women in the penal system. And a Ministry of Justice spokesperson said we are clear that custody should be the last resort for women. And the number entering prison has fallen by nearly a third since we launched our female offender strategy in 2018. We've also made significant improvements to support female offenders, building new prison places to increase the availability of single cells and in-cell showers, while providing greater access to education, health care and employment.

In addition, we're investing heavily in rehabilitation and treatment programmes, which will see £80 million worth of helping with funding drug treatment services so more women can turn their backs on crime. And with response to politics and this particular story about Angela Rayner and some of your responses to that with regards to how you may or may not amend what you wear to work, Samantha says men in Westminster wear a very dull standardised uniform and if any of them deviated from it,

it would make headlines. Why should it be any different for women? I think that's a slightly different point but I sort of take the point that there's a uniform for men. A message here though

saying regarding the Angela Rayner story, it's a breathtaking blend of misogyny and class bigotry but also wrong. She could debate Boris Johnson

under the table not that anybody would want to be there. And another one, Charles says, as my daughter says, I'd be damned if I had to edit what I wear because men do not know how to behave. This generation of, in inverted commas, men who the Mail on Sunday highlight

should be hoping they disappear into the background before the next generation of women rather more pointedly explain to them how to behave and run them out of town. Well, I've got two women who've just walked in. I'm sure could do that. We've got some lovely jubbly guests.

I have to say that up next. Most people probably know them best as Raquel and Cassandra. I'm, of course, talking about Tessa Peake-Jones and Gwyneth Strong, famous for playing Del Boy and Rodney's wives in the iconic sitcom Only Fools and Horses and many roles since and before too, I'm sure. But they are now reunited for a new project starring in a touring stage adaptation of Ladies of Letters, which is based on the Radio 4 series of the same name.

And the play follows Irene Spencer and Vera Small, two suburban women in their 60s, and through letters to each other, they freely vent their views on everything from their ungrateful children to how to find love at 60. Dear Vera, I can't write much just now because Bill is coming over to take me out to a dinner dance. His wife died very slowly and painfully last year and I have never seen a man so devoted.

Fond regards, Irene. Dear Irene, new boyfriend, eh? I read about this woman in the Daily Mail who abandoned all her friends for a new fancy man, and then an illegal immigrant fell off the wing of a jumbo jet and landed on her. So, let that be a lesson to you. Best wishes, Vera. P.S. My chest is much better. Mabel Thrush knitted me a thermal boob tube. Say what you like about her interpersonal skills. She knows what to do with her hands. Love that. Good morning, Tessa and Gwyneth. Welcome. Good morning. Well, how can we follow that? We'll have to try. Well, first, I'll ask you, Tessa, how does it feel to be performing together after all this time? It's really lovely, A, because it's on stage and not on telly.

And also, we had very little to do with each other on Only Fools and Horses because we were mainly with the men. Yes. Do you know what I mean? So we didn't really ever have any scenes, just the two of us. So now we're on stage non-stop for whatever, hour and a half, just the two of us so now we're on stage non-stop for whatever hour and a half just the two of us and it's it's joyous because to to to act anyway is lovely but to be doing it with a friend is really special and how about that for you Gwyneth yeah I mean it's um it's an

incredible experience in the sense that it's quite rare that two women of our age are allowed on stage alone to have big opinions. And these women... Maybe crossing and uncrossing your legs. I mean, who knows? Let's not even go there. Many times. Wearing what we want. Who'd have thought it?

Yes. And they've really got this freedom to say what they want about people. And they're quite rude. And it is just so liberating to play rude women, I have to say what they want about people and they're quite rude and it is just so liberating to play rude women I have to say and they manage to keep the relationship going however awful they are to each other which they are they are true frenemies these two. Yes so there is a huge honesty as I say it was a comedy series that ran for 13 years on on Radio 4 it's based on the series of books of the same name written by Carol Heyman and Lou Wakefield,

of course, on Radio Patricia Routledge and Prunella scales. But this is a modern day interpretation. Tessa, tell us about your character. My character's Irene and she's a widow. The play starts, they've just had a wedding. That's where the two meet. And it was her only daughter's wedding. And so the first first letter you're very much aware that now this woman is on her own in a house they've gone off to get married the daughter and the husband and it's so it starts from a sort of quite a lonely place and I think the same is true of Vera and then gradually through the letters they and their adventures they have during the play they sort of find better versions of themselves,

freer, more confident versions of themselves. So it's fascinating to play in that way because you start as one thing and then gradually your character, hopefully, if we've got it right, the characters will be a slightly different version of the women by the end of the play. Does she say anything you'd never say? Yeah, I think she says quite a lot of things

I wouldn't say, actually, but that's the fun of it. Any favourites that spring to mind? Not yet, because I haven't quite a lot of things I wouldn't say, actually. But that's the fun of it. Any favourites that this brings to mind? Not yet, because I haven't quite learned it all. Oh, OK. I have. But, yeah, she's opinionated in quite a parochial way. Yes. Which is fun, very, very fun to do.

And Gwyneth, you're Vera. Yes. And what's she like? Well, the other thing to say about this is being adapted by Jonathan Harvey. And he's made them a little bit younger. And he's updated it really with a lot of the references. So you get another whole sort of area there that wasn't in the radio show. And I think, I mean, yeah, I think Vera is very into her status and does believe that she is on a higher plane, I think a little bit to everybody else. And I often think with her,

she's the sort of person that you'd kind of quite like to have lunch with, but you'd be really glad when she left. And then you talk about what she said can you believe she said that oh my gosh she's one of those in the group that provides the content yeah for everyone else to have the conversations afterwards absolutely definitely yeah so it's lovely to hear that you're friends have you stayed friends over the years because you know if you didn't appear that much together i suppose people hadn't really taken that in maybe no and actually we were saying the other day weren't we that our friendship as the two of us has developed more in the last 20 years since the program stopped really because well because we were at the time we were I mean we got on but we were you know filming working parents family you know there was so much going on that there was

never that much time to develop a friendship whereas now we we it gets better and better yeah no we're really really close we're in each other's lives you know Tessa knows my family really well I know hers and it works really really well for something like this because we get it for nothing the friendship bit we just get for nothing which is lovely do you ever watch only fools and horses together no we've never done that I don't think we watch it alone do Do you ever watch it alone? No. I mean, it must... Because it comes on so often, though. Do you ever just catch sight of it?

And then what do you do when you see it? I flick straight away because I usually have such a fright at my hair. And, you know, you're just looking for something to watch to take your mind off things. And you're like, oh, no, not that helmet. That helmet. What was wrong with the hair?

My hair was like a helmet, which is fine. It was right for then, but I don't want to be reminded of it. Do you ever have a look, Tessie? No, flicking, like G helmet, which is fine. It was right for then, but I don't want to be reminded of it. Do you ever have a look, Tessa? No, flicking, like Gwyneth, flicking, but no. No, because, you know, it finished 20 years ago. So, A, we're older now, and you think, well, you're looking at yourself when you're sort of 30, 40 is slightly different when you're in your 60s.

And also, we were so familiar at the time with it, weren't we? It's sort of like a different world then. How do you feel you were written as a woman in relation to men because now of course a lot more effort is made isn't it to to have women talk to each other a lot more not just be if you like the development of the other half of a male character yes I think I mean only falls in a way because of the period it was 30 years ago when we first went into it wasn't it more probably um yeah we were definitely brought in as as the add-on to the male no question but actually john sullivan was also incredibly interested once he had the women in in their

storylines so they then weren't they did develop yes parts and you know it wasn't just i think a cipher to the man, was it? No, I think, and John used to worry about it. He used to say, you know, he was worried about writing women, which for me was a great sign because he had that humility and he understood that. So I think he worked well. And I think our characters, we were originally booked for an episode, a series. And because he got more confident and because it all seemed to work quite well, the whole thing expanded. That's when they went to one hours when they started exploring a family life for these guys.

Yes. More dimensions to it. Did you laugh a lot making it, Tessa? All the time. Did you? Yeah, all the time. I always worry, you know, when you ask somebody when they've been involved in something very funny and they say, no, it was incredibly difficult. Nobody really got on. I didn't find it that funny.

But you did. That's lovely to hear. I mean, you used to, didn't we? We used to look forward to the read-through because you knew as soon as you sat down at the table with everyone there and read it for the first time, whichever script it was of John's, everyone was just in hysterics, weren't they?

Because his structure, the way he wrote was so brilliant. It was hilarious from the minute. And then, of course, working on it, we were like a family. And, of course, we came back every year, so it became a bit like panto season. We'd come back at Christmas. Yes. And hear how things had gone for each of us during the year

and spent the entire time laughing, didn't we? I mean, the terror was to try and control your laughter and do your performing. And we would sometimes not look at each other, literally looking that way in a large pub scene because you'd know what was coming and the fear that you'd mess it up because the little thing on the side of your face,

a twitch was coming that you'd be allowed in rehearsal, but not live. Yes, of course, the live element, very important. In front of the live audience. In all of that. Well, it still gives so many people so much joy. And I'm sure this will do too. And we wish you all the best with it.

Because, of course, so many people have so much attached to it. I feel like you wanted to add something. Can I just say that from the 28th of April, we'll be at the Yvonne Arnaud Theatre in Guildford and then we'll be touring. You'll be on tour from that point on. Thank you. I love it when you help me out with my job.

You two can come back, please. Yes, please. Said in perfect unison. Off they go. Of course, with regards to this, a lot of people will have good memories of Ladies of Letters. But Tessa Peake-Jones, Gwyneth Strong, look forward to hearing more about how it goes. And you learning your lines, of course. Definitely.

They'll be there by Thursday. Okay, good. Tessa Peake-Jones, Gwyneth Strong. And some messages, I'm sure, will come in with some of your thoughts on Ladies of Letters and some of your memories too. Now, we are still seeing the long term ramifications of the last couple of years of the pandemic appear in different parts of life and still, quite frankly, trying to understand them. And with so many of us forced indoors and spending more time online, one question that has come up has been whether COVID has changed the prevalence of how children interact online

and also how they are targeted and whether that has, I'm very sad to say, impacted or perhaps increased the amount of child sexual abuse imagery online. Now, the Internet Watch Foundation is a charity which finds flags and removes images and videos of child sexual abuse from the Internet. And it's publishing its annual report tomorrow. And BBC Look East reporter John Ironmonger has been given exclusive advance access.

John, I believe there's a shocking headline figure that you can share with us, which pertains to girls. Yeah, that's right i mean just to give you first of all an indication of the amount of material that the analysts at the internet watch foundation are uncovering last year they found this horrible child sexual abuse material on more than a quarter of a million websites which is far more than ever before. And of all of that material, 99% of it this year, or indeed last year, featured girls, or 97% of it was solely of girls only. Do we know why there's been such a dramatic increase in the number of girls being targeted?

I mean, it's really hard to say. But it does sort of tally with other concurrent trends. So the National Crime Agency, for instance, say that there is a new trend whereby offenders are exploiting new technologies to abuse children remotely and particularly social media platforms. And we know for a fact that children, older children are using social media and the internet more now than ever before. Well, we'll return to those figures shortly and some of the other elements that you've been able to pull out from the report. But I know you've been speaking to an analyst at the Internet Watch Foundation who we're calling Clara, one of the analysts responsible for flagging and removing this illegal content.

Here she is describing her work and the impact it's had on her. The first thing we would do coming in in the morning is we would check that our URL list, which is the service that we provide to members, that that's everything on that is live. So that would be checking, unfortunately, multiple images of child sexual abuse in quick succession. Then we could either be doing proactive work where we actually actively go out and seek images of child sexual abuse and seek to have them taken down, or we might be taking reports from the public where they've reported URLs

where they think they've seen images of child sexual abuse. We see a lot of the worst abuses, so the most severe categories. We tend to see that among the younger age groups, and that could be newborns even, babies, toddlers. We do see content taken down, and that's a great feeling. But it is demoralising just to see the scale of the problem. I mean, that was the thing that most shocked me when I started this job. I just couldn't believe how many images of child sexual abuse were on the internet. And what about the types of

images and videos that you're seeing? Have they changed at all? They have in some ways. We do unfortunately see a lot of the same images again and again, but a trend that we have noticed increasing year on year and in the last year particularly is we've seen a huge increase in the amount of what's called self-generated content

where a child might be on a webcam or using their phone to film themselves and they're quite often being coerced into that by an offender. So we've seen an enormous increase in that kind of material, unfortunately. And we always see and have continued to see an increase in the number of female victims in these images. You know, it's quite often a child's bedroom or some sort of domestic setting. Does it worry you that suddenly this seems to be a new avenue to exploit people who can just get girls to record themselves, job done? It is depressing here. And again, just the scale of it is is horrifying really and to know that

children can be exploited in their own homes you know where they should feel safe that is is horrifying really i try to imagine what it must be like doing this job and i don't know if you do you become hypersensitive to it or do you become inured to it as though it doesn't sort of have any impact on you anymore or what what's happening inside you when you're seeing this this content I think the ideal is to fall somewhere in the middle but yeah even after years years of experience it's it's difficult not to be affected by it you know you're looking at children being abused in the most cruel and cynical ways. And I think what counteracts that is the way, for example, our working day is set up, the fact that we're only ever going to do a limited number of hours per day.

But also, you know, the days when I feel like I just can't believe that other humans are doing this. For me, that's offset by literally looking around the room and thinking, well, I'm in a room full of humans that are doing something good and are trying to fight this evil. You're fighting a war, aren't you? I mean, we hold up our soldiers and say, you know, look at how brave they are and the horrors that they have to confront. But you're doing that every day in the online world, really.

We are. It's a different kind of warfare. You're right. It's a different front line. A very different one, indeed. And there's an increase in self-generated content as well. John Iremonger talking there to Clara, BBC Look East reporter who's got access to this report before it comes out. Tell us a bit about the increase in self-generated content. Yeah, so this is really significant too. So Clara referred to it there. So the Internet Watch Foundation found that since the start of the pandemic, the amount of self-generated content has increased nearly fourfold. And that's where, as Clara just mentioned, a child is basically groomed by an offender to share images of themselves, normally while they're at home in their bedroom, using a phone or a webcam.

And that is, of course, part of the grooming that abusers manipulate these individuals to do this, right? Yeah, exactly. So, you know, social media platforms and other tech companies are becoming more than just platforms to share child sexual abuse material now. They're becoming a tool used by abusers to actually carry it out. So abusers and offenders are accessing children remotely

and then streaming content and recording it essentially and the pandemic in all of this just looking at that with a lens on how that's changed and and how things have have been affected during that time has it completely changed or do you think it was going along this road already i mean it was starting to go down this road, but it's impossible not to connect them because it's accelerated so fast since the pandemic. Like I said, over what, two years? It's gone up 400 percent. So I think one in three images about three years ago used to be self-generated. Now it's about 70 percent. And it's that shift to sort of remote working, working at home, using new technologies to communicate. Offenders have exploited that. And I think, you know, older children in particular have been

exploring these new technologies. So they're more vulnerable to be exploited. And the sex of the offenders, is it men? Is it women? What do we know? So the IWF on this point says, I mean, you know, as we've mentioned, the vast majority of material now is self-generated, which means that the offenders aren't present in the material. Where offenders are present, they are invariably men. And the report finds that where women are present, the victims tend to be boys of the age of around seven to ten. So, OK, so that is a difference. They're almost matching, actually, in some ways that when boys are there, it's women offenders and vice versa.

But it's majority, it's men because the majority of the content is women. Absolutely. Yeah. And in terms of the online safety bill, how does that link into this in terms of ramifications for offenders? Well, I mean, the bill is welcomed in many ways, but I think the feeling is it doesn't really go far enough. What the bill will essentially do is it will give the media watchdog Ofcom more powers to essentially impose sanctions on tech companies who fail to keep children safe online. And they will have a responsibility to take down any of this content on their website. But it won't, for instance, put pressure on those companies to prevent the production of the material on their platform. So, I mean, I just mentioned that, you know, certain

platforms and apps now are being used by offenders as tools to actually carry out the abuse, not just to share it. So, yes, there is a feeling it perhaps could do more. Well, there'll be more analysis to come on that. But just talking about analysis, the analysts that you're aware of, like Clara, are they are they predominantly women and what support do they get? They are predominantly women. I mean, I asked Clara about it and she said it may just be that the part-time hours suit women better. But it was interesting. I had a feeling that there would be a certain coldness or a toughness about the people who worked there, but they were all very sensitive, had high emotional intelligence and they were resilient, I think, overall. Yeah. Yeah mostly women they're only allowed to work a certain number of hours a week while they're exposed to this content which of course

makes sense. There's a well-developed desensitization process when they're in training for the job so they're exposed to it very gradually and I think they get you know regular mental health support as well. John Iomonga, thank you very much. Giving us a preview of the Internet Watch Foundation's annual report with a view to that particular element of it. Well, finally, for today's programme, it's the next in our series, Threads, about the emotional power of old clothes. And I have been loving your stories that you've been kind enough to share. If this is the first one you've heard, we've been hearing about items of clothing which you, our listeners, cannot part with. And today it's Lisa's turn. And Lisa, it's all about a jacket. Good morning. Good morning, Emma.

Tell us about this jacket. Yes, well, my mum was going through a tough time back in 1968. So my gran and grandad decided to take her on a very first trip abroad to Mallorca with my elder sister, who was 11 at the time. And in those days, you used to get dressed, I think, to go on an aeroplane. So she went off and bought herself a really smart jacket and a skirt. And my grandparents were really smart a smart couple as well and off they went to Mallorca and when she was there she realized she was pregnant with me and sent my dad a postcard saying well two of us have come away and three of us will be coming back so that was how the lovely little jacket was acquired. And she kept this, obviously, in her life, your mum?

She did. It's a Prince of Wales woollen jacket, a very fitted jacket with a little Peter Pan collar and little satin-covered buttons. And I think it was one of those items that went with so many things she always kept it. And you then also had it for yourself or how did it get given to you? Yes well I always loved it when I was little but when I was 17 and I was at sixth form at school in Sutton Coalfield I got a job in the local department store in Birmingham called Rackham's and it was a very smart old-fashioned department store and I was working in the shoe department

and it was a black and white uniform so my mum said oh you can wear my little jacket so off I went you know feeling bee's knees really going off to work in this little fitted Chanel style jacket oh that's lovely I remember Rackham's actually from South Manchester as well. So it's something I can picture actually in my mind. And you still have it to this day because it means a lot to you now, doesn't it? Yeah, I've always worn it. So I wore it then. And when I got my first job, I wore it, you know, with different combinations of, you know, skirts and trousers. But I remember specifically wearing it when I was having my first child and thinking my mom had been pregnant wearing this.

I'm pregnant and I'm still wearing this and I still wear it. I'm in my 50s now and I still wear it. And every time I put it on, I think of her. You know, she was an incredible lady and she brought us up on her own eventually, you know, and it really does. It's like putting on something of hers that is all encompassing. Yes, because I know when you were just 14 months old, your dad left. So she was your world. She was completely, yeah.

My sister and I, you know, really, really, she was so important to us. And to other people too. She was an open house, her house, and my friends lived to come and we had lodgers from all over the world, you know, staying with us so she could continue to pay the bills and everything. But we both actually have kept items of clothing that she wore and we haven't been able to part with them so we both of us wear things that belong to her where do you keep where do you keep the jacket now um i i put it i keep it in the wardrobe because i wear it quite often

and you are still wearing it oh great i'm still wearing it yeah i love that well it's kind of ironic i suppose because i started the program talking a bit about what we do and don't wear and how we are and aren't perceived so it's slightly come full circle even though you know people don't wish to be necessarily defined by their clothes it's also very important of course how how one presents oneself and how you feel and what you attach to those those clothes yeah totally and I think it's gone with me through life because it was such a classic piece of clothing. The quality, you know, even now it still holds its shape. It's beautifully cut.

And I think I've always bought things on the basis that I'm not going to be throwing this away anytime soon and buy things that are going to last and be flexible, you know, in my wardrobe. So it has probably gone through my life. Well, thank you so much for talking to us about it today. And I love that it's still in action. A lot of the ones that we've heard about, you know, are put in kind of cupboards or drawers and occasionally seen.

But it's nice to hear it's such good quality as well that it lasted. Lisa, thank you very much for that. Many messages coming in about how one presents oneself and the things that women do to not necessarily draw comments that they don't receive. But I have to read this one. An anonymous message. Now, steady on, girls. It's no secret that women the world over and throughout history have spent a great deal of time and money on, quote, looking good. You cannot have your cake and eat it. I'd love to talk to you. Maybe you'll get in touch with us again and give your name. It's always some of the more interesting comments that don't have any names attached,

because I think there's quite a lot to unpack there. Anyway, more to do. Back with you tomorrow at 10. Thank you for your company today. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I thought it was going to be like, we have such a great friendship that we can talk about things that I can't talk about with anyone else, even my wife. I can talk to you about things that I can't talk to my wife about because when I tried to talk to my wife about work, she just rolls her eyes. I thought you were going to say, like, we're like astronauts,

we're the only ones who've been to the moon and no-one else has seen what we've seen. I'm Louis Theroux, and if, like me, you enjoyed listening to John Ronson's Things Fell Apart podcast, you might also like this conversation where I ask him all about how he made it. Funny, so you're conflict-averse, I'm conflict-averse,

yet we spend our lives putting ourselves in very conflict-heavy situations. Why is that, Louis? That's How Things Fell Apart with John Ronson and Louis Theroux on Radio 4 and BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.