Woman's Hour - Lady Brittan on false accusations, playwright Anna Jordan on Mother Courage, author Claire Powell, strength training

Episode Date: June 3, 2026

New research shows that strength training twice a week can lengthen your life. Sarah Best and Emma Holmes, who are 49 and 51, will compete at an elite indoor fitness competition, the Hyrox World Championships later this month. Only the top 0.5% of competitors worldwide qualify to compete. They tell Nuala about how they achieved this impressive level of fitness and explain how you can be strong at any age.Lady Brittan is calling on the government to recognise those falsely accused as victims, when a perpetrator is released. This follows the release of Carl Beech who was jailed in part for perverting the course of justice. Beech, whose allegations sparked one of the Metropolitan Police’s most high-profile investigations, Operation Midland, was jailed for 18 years in 2019 after his claims of historic child abuse against prominent figures were proven to be false. Now Lady Brittan is among those saying they should have been informed about his release. She explains why she is is a signatory to a letter to the Justice Secretary, alongside some of those falsely accused by Carl Beech. Mother Courage and her Children is Bertolt Brecht’s 1939 tale of a wartime profiteer who prefers to see herself as a savvy survivor and devoted mother. Currently on stage at the Globe in London for the first time, Nuala speaks to playwright Anna Jordan who has adapted the story for a modern audience. Why is this story one for retelling now and why does it continue to be performed more than 80 years later around the world?Author Claire Powell joins Nuala to discuss her latest novel All In. It follows a couple on an all-inclusive holiday with their extended family and explores the strain that IVF can place on a relationship. She tells Nuala why she chose the setting of a luxury resort to explore family dynamics. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Olivia Skinner

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The Signal Awards recognise the podcast that define culture, and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart with recognition from the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team and stand out.

The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration. Hello, this is Neula McGovern, and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, and welcome to the program. Strength has no age limit, so says my first guests. We are going to meet the women who have qualified to represent England at this year's High Rocks World Championships at the age of 51 and also of 49. Also today, an in-depth interview with Lady Britain

who is calling for those falsely accused to be recognised as victims. It follows the release of Carl Beach, who made false allegations of murder and child sexual abuse against high-profile public figures, including her husband. And we have the playwright and screenwriter Anna Jordan. Now she has a lot of strings to her bow, including writing for succession one day and killing Eve. But now she has adapted the classic play, Mother Courage, for the Globe Theatre. We'll hear more about bringing Bertolt Breck's upside-down world to life in London.

And we'll also delve into relationships on the rocks through Claire Powell's latest novel All In. It illustrates the complexity and strain on a relationship as a couple goes through multiple unsuccessful fertility treatments and they question whether to stay together Claire writes very beautifully about it all through her character Joe who asks how do couples carry on

when there is so much pain and longing and also grief and does it require a selfless kind of deep love and understanding to stay well maybe this is something that resonates with you if you are prepared to share your experience please do get in touch

you can do so anonymously of course To text the program, it's 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. You can use the number 0-3700-100-1044. So your stories have been in a couple going through infertility, how that was, and we'll speak to Claire a little bit later. Now, you may have seen in the news today that strength training can help us live longer. We've already spoken many times on Women's Hour about the benefits of lifting weights,

particularly as we age, as women. Well, two women I'm about to speak to are showing us just what is possible. One is 49 years of age, the other 51. And later this month, they will compete at an elite indoor fitness competition, the High Rocks World Championships. High Rocks, you may or may not know,

combines endurance running and functional fitness. And here's the fact. only the top 0.5% of competitors worldwide qualified to compete. So this is quite the achievement for Sarah Best and Emma Holmes, who joined me on the line. Now, good morning to both of you. Good morning. Thank you for having us.

You're so welcome. Congratulations, first off. And Sarah, I'm going to begin with you. I mentioned the term functional fitness. What is that? And why do these championships, and I suppose training for them, lead to more functional fitness?

Well, functional fitness is very much about strength that we can use in everyday life. So that could be carrying your shopping or lifting a child or just anything around the house. So, yes, the fitness race does involve that. So we both took up strength training in our 40s. We're very passionate about aging well and gaining strength for life. and we started this fitness journey, just lifting weights, starting running, and just, yeah, improved over time, gained more muscle, got stronger and stronger, and that's really where our journey began.

So, Emma, I understand you were into running for many years. I think you've just ran your 150th marathon, which is also an achievement. But why did you decide to go more into a strength-focused to progress? I actually took up strength training in COVID because running was great, but obviously we could only do a certain amount. I found a gym locally and I had some personal training sessions outside and actually quite enjoyed the challenge of something more than running. I then found out about the sports competition just two years ago actually. I did my first competition then and Sarah and I got together a year ago and started training. did you meet? I actually went to Sarah for some personal training because she's the strong one

and I was the runner. I love this. So you come together. But my understanding as well, Sarah, is that you actually work together in the competition. Can you explain what that entails? So the running element of the race is done together. So that's eight kilometres and that's basically split between eight strength stations. As we're doing it as a done, were able to kind of split those strength stations. So for example, the farmers carry, I will do some of it, and Emma will sort of take over or vice versa. So each strength station can be split.

And we just sort of play around with our strengths and weaknesses. As you said, Emma's very much the runner, so I'm trying to keep up with her on the run, and then maybe some of the strength elements, I'm a little bit stronger, so I take over there. with there. So it's very much a partnership, you know, playing on each other's strengths and weaknesses. And the question really is, what is a farmer's carry? A farmer's carry is basically holding two weights, so exactly like you would your shopping after, you know, you've been to the supermarket.

These are actually two 24 kilogram weight. So it's pretty heavy and you have to carry it. 200 metres and yes, as I said, that's sort of split between us in this format. And I suppose some might be wondering, you know, because we do carry our shopping and do maybe pick up children, why that's not enough. Like why you decided, Emma, that you want to do this. Sounds pretty grueling, these eight stations, everything incredibly intense, incredibly heavy or long or both. Why this? What appeals to you about?

it, Emma. It's just a very different type of exercise. It's a really good challenge. And like I said, my background is endurance running and this is the complete opposite. It's short, it's fast, it's very hard. The heart rate is through the roof. It's, yeah, it's actually a bit insane when you look at it. But to do it, I think to do it in a partnership is brilliant. And, you know, there'll be people instead, Sarah, you know, who perhaps have never lifted a weight in their life or stepped inside a gym, they just find it too intimidating,

which I think we can understand. Sometimes gyms are set up in such a way. They're kind of not for the faint of heart. What would you say to them if they are interested, perhaps not in doing it at the level that you are, but just stepping over the threshold or picking up a kettlebell? As I said, we both started strength training in our 40s.

It really is never too late. Strength has no age limit. And you don't need fancy. equipment, you don't need to do extremes. You can literally just start at home with a mat and some very basic equipment like dumbbells just to get started. And you can get so much strength just doing basic exercises. So it doesn't need to be extreme and it doesn't need to be for long periods of time. Just 20 minutes, you know, three times a week will really see you on your way to building more muscle and looking after your longevity.

If you were to give me a top exercise or two that people should be doing with those dumbbells. I'd definitely start with squats. You know, that's a functional movement pattern we need for life. You know, getting in and out of the car on off the toilet is something that we really need to be doing. So I'd definitely say squats and push-ups are another body weight exercise actually. of mine as a real favourite. It's great for the upper body

all over your core strength as well. So squats and push-ups that would be to get us started and you don't even have to use a weight with that. You can start introducing that after a little bit when you're feeling on top of it.

Now speaking of on top, 0.5% of competitors, just the top bunch there qualify to compete for this title of world champion each year. Just wondering how do you feel? You're heading off to Sweden together later this month to do that. Emma, thoughts, feelings, plans.

Excitements, nerves. Yeah, we literally fly two weeks today. So we've got a few days to get around the stadium and the city. And there's actually a really big opening ceremony on the Thursday where all the competitors from around the world actually follow their country's flag out around the arena. So it's almost like a mini Olympics. Just very excited. Great fun.

But some might wonder, I know you're both mothers, you've obviously busy lives. I know, for example, Sarah, you are a personal trainer, so perhaps you can fit training in a little bit with your work. But I'm wondering, Emma, with you. How do you manage it? I think you both are working out for more than 10 hours a week, for example. Yeah, I like to either go to the gym in the evening or in the morning

and then Sarah and I try to meet up twice a week at lunchtime. We can just manage to fit it into our day. Really, it's either in the morning, the evening or at lunchtime. And if you're sort of doing an hour, an hour and a half, I do think it is achievable. And so then perhaps, Sarah, 20 minutes, maybe even more achievable for some of those that are just getting started. Absolutely.

I mean, you know, we're heading towards our competition now, you know our training is at its peak but absolutely 20 minutes whenever you can i mean i we both work full-time and yes i am in the gym environment but i still have to like squeeze in my training i might do a really early workout before my clients or in the evening or as i said at lunchtime we race to meet each other so it's always a juggle we're juggling children we're juggling elderly parents it's just finding those little moments that you can um squeeze it in Great stuff. Thank you very much for speaking to us. We wish you all the best. We'll be keeping an eye on the High Rocks World Championships,

Sarah Best and Emma Holmes. That will be competing. Enjoy it all. 8444-844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, Mother Courage and her children is the playwright Bertolt Brex's 1939 tale of a wartime profiteer. It's widely considered one of the most important anti-war plays. Mother Courage likes to see herself as a devoted mother committed to the survival of her three grown children but her relentless attempts at trying to make a quick book selling anything from burgers to ammunition to sex

often throw into question her primary motive. It's a play that after 80 years is still regularly performed all around the world. It's in London now and to discuss why the story continues to resonate I'm joined by the Bruntwood Prize-winning playwright and screenwriter Anna Jordan. She's adapted this version for a modern audience.

Welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you so much, Nuda. It's lovely to be here. So, you know, I think when we hear about adaptation, can you explain exactly what that entails? Yeah, the process for this specific adaptation. Oh, it's really interesting, actually. So essentially you get, when you're commissioned to do an adaptation like this,

you get a literal translation, which is a translation from German. directly into English. So it sometimes looks a bit like what you might get on Google translate, you know. And you sort of, you work your way through that, but sort of armed with a couple of other texts, a couple of other versions. I tend to work with more sort of traditional, older versions because I want to kind of, I don't want to be sort of given ideas by newer versions. I want to kind of have my own ideas.

But occasionally I would dip into a newer version. And literally, it's quite sort of systematic. and quite satisfying if you're quite a chaotic writer like me. Like you just work through line by line really and working out what Brecht was trying to say, working out how you'd like to word it in the characters that you're sort of he's created and then you're sort of adding on to those creation.

Yeah, because I often see you referred to in articles as a translator. Yes. Which obviously it's not a language translation. It's a translation of how you are seeing. this particular play. Yeah, definitely, because I only got B at GCSE Germans. It's not too bad. Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting.

As I say, it's like, I'm used to creating something from nothing. So to have this incredible text and this incredible play with all of this history and, of course, the character of Mother Courage, this brilliant sort of anti-hero. And some people will be very familiar with her. I did it in university the play. But that was like reading it, which is totally different.

from wanting to see it in the stupendous arena off the globe, of course. Yeah. But how would you describe it for people that are coming to it cold? People who are coming to it cold completely. I mean, I love the idea of that. I think sometimes we get bogged down with what we've read before, you know, what previous versions of things we've known. I would describe it as a sort of carnivalesque, I'm going to say.

It's a really good word to you. Yeah. huge sort of explosion of a story of a mother who has three children and is living through this endless experience of war. And she is trying to survive and she is trying to thrive. She's trying to keep her family alive. She's trying to survive and she's trying to thrive. And I think that essentially is the story, all of the things that kind of happen around her,

the people that move in and out of her orbit. Her view, her motivation is so clear. And I think that it's the sort of the distance between the surviving and thriving. It's where sometimes people lose sympathy and empathy from other courage because actually it's not all about self-sacrifice. She enjoys the stuff she does sometimes. You know, she loves running a club. She loves dealing drugs and arms. You know, she thrives on that stuff.

In a way, perhaps characteristics more often attributed to a man. Absolutely, yeah. So that's what drew me to the play, really, I suppose, in the biggest sense. It's a true exploration of this incredible, flawed, mighty, you know, human female character that Michelle Terry just embodies so incredibly. Well, let's hear a little off Michelle. She is the artistic director of the globe, playing Mother Courage, who is at this point,

vulgar, a brutal communicator. This is from the end of Act 1. Mother Courage is talking to soldiers from the Blue Army, the minister and her daughter, Catherine. I feel sorry for the big wigs in a way. Why? Well, they're no different to us. They came into the world screaming, just like we did.

They sapped on their mother's tits. They're not monsters. They're men with monstrous thoughts. They want the whole world. They want statues of themselves. They want glory and total control. The problem is, we give it to them. And there she is.

And I think that gives a little sense. And it's a tough watch at times. I think some called it devastating. She loses her children one by one. But there is a lot of humour. sometimes almost slapstick. I think Carnivalesque is a really interesting word to use. And you mentioned that you're a chaotic writer,

which I'm also intrigued by. I always love a bit of chaos. Yeah. How difficult is it, though, to keep that balance between these, I suppose, contrasting emotions that are at play? Well, Brecht makes it easy. Really?

I think, yeah. I don't think I've ever heard Breck to be called easy before. I guess that he, Well, he presents the facts, the story of what happens to Mother Courage and her children very clearly in the play. And so there's no confusion around what happens. But as a writer, I think my favourite thing about being a writer and something that people have always kind of commented on with my work is, which I'm very proud of, is the ability to move between humour and sadness, darkness and light, and to find humour in the darkest of places, which is why I was really drawn to doing my work.

mother courage. And I think that's not only like a nice thing. I think it's essential. The bleaker things get, the more important it is to be able to find lightness in moments and to understand that the dark times that we are living through, the dark times that mother courage goes through her children go through. We're not sort of travelling towards a point where this is going to be resolved beautifully and we're going to step out into white light. We need to find moments of light throughout. And actually I think I think people have found the play really devastating. I find it devastating

and I've been sort of living with it for a long time. But I think it's when you go to the theatre, it's the company, the actors, the theatre maker's responsibility to sort of hold the audience through that process. And it's not a sort of specific science, it's not a box ticking thing, but it's like about giving the audience

time and space to experience the story, giving them moments of light, giving them humour, while they can sort of receive the more traumatic, difficult stuff. Time, space, light are three words that I think you could really associate with the environment that it's in,

which is the globe. Yeah. I can't tell you how exciting it's been for me to watch something I've co-written. Yes. There. Every time I'm, I go and see the show, it feels like I've been to a mini festival. You're right.

So people have talked about in the reviews, you know, this sort of sense of that Brecht is brilliantly, that the globe is brilliant, could have been designed for Brecht. One of the important elements of Brecht's sort of desires of his motivations was this idea that the audience aren't passive, that they don't get to sit back, that they get involved, that they feel that they are part of what's going on. And of course, the globe is brilliant for that. And I think the number one reason that the globe is brilliant for that is because we don't get the anonymity of a blackout as an audience.

We are visible to the actors. We're visible to each other. And that sort of gives us a sense of being part of the action. Elle, while the director has worked lots at the globe, so she just knows how to handle the space so brilliantly and knows how to direct these fantastic group of actors to really kind of manipulate. and make the most of the space.

And then, of course, you've got the pit, which I've sort of jokingly say to people, I'm in the mosh pit tonight. But we had this wonderful group of American students that came in. They were sort of teenagers. And they were sort of, at the beginning of the second act, they were raving and jumping up and down and whooping. And by the end of the play, they were so bereft that I actually sort of went into mum mode.

And I went over and I said, are you guys okay? Is there someone with you? And it was very sweet. They came around to the stage door and sort of cheered the actors as they came out. And they sort of said to me, we just haven't seen anything like that before

that can encapsulate so much, sort of joy and humour and, of course, deep, deep sadness. But it is that unique location that also adds, as you mentioned to it. And I was, as I was, as I watch the play also watching the audience. I think it's kind of so immersive in that sense

when you're in, I mean, what a wonderful thing to have literally on our doorstep. We had a brilliant moment actually because there's a lot of stuff in the, is it Rosamond Pike has sort of called out an audience number for texting. We had a brilliant moment a few nights ago where Michelle talks, Mother Courage, talks about this idea of needing courage to bring children into the world, to get up in the morning, needing courage just to look each other in the eye. And at this point, she looked at someone in the audience who was texting, someone in the pit, who was texting. Great person. It does happen. And she wasn't unkind, but she said, oy, oy. And she continued to say,

in mother courage, until they looked up and she said, it takes courage to look each other in the eye. And I felt in that moment, it was such a brilliant moment. The person on their phone took it very well. The audience loved it. But just that Michelle stuck the distance and she did it. And I thought that's a real great example of how the globe just, it gives you this connection between audience and actors. Let me tell you the rest of the audience would have very much applauded Michelle Terry for that as well.

With Brett, while researching for this, he wrote this with his assistant, Marguerite Stephan, who I had never heard her name before. I know. And I believe he had collaborated with other women on other work as well. Yeah. Do you know, it's funny, I've got her name written on my hand. I don't think I would have forgotten to mention her,

but which is really, really important. And I think that, you know, at a time where there's lots of discussion, there's been discussion, you know, about who gets, to write, who gets to write particular stories, etc. I think that it's really important to recognize Marguerite Stefan, yes, that nobody knows her name, but it is said that she had a significant contribution to the writing of Mother Courage. And yeah, I just think that's so important. She's such an incredible hero when I was first approached by headlong theatre company

about writing, adapting a classic play for the Royal Exchange, which is where this was first in production, seven years ago now. There weren't many plays that offer such a fantastic role for a woman, so I was really drawn to that. And you've been involved, as I mentioned, at the top of the programme in so many, so strong characters one day, Succession, Killing Eve.

but I was really interested to read that you've published your first anthology of Ponyons, decade. I have. I've got a copy for you actually. Oh, well, thank you. Thank you very much. I'm going to leave it by the kettle. You'll find it there. You know my habits and my routine. It was never too long before I go back to the kettle. But let's talk about a love story. Your dad and your mom. Yeah. Can you tell us that story where poetry comes in? I can. So we're a big poetry family. So my dad, Peter Gordon, who is an actor.

and a poet wrote my mum Alison King who's a director who was also in Mother Courage in the 70s which is why I chose the play to do she played Catron in the Bolton Octagon she's no longer with us but she my dad wrote my mum a poem every day for 25 years and put it under her pillow

if that's not romance I know it's so romantic right so then when she died he continued to write for her but when she died he took a big suitcase of 8,000 poems, around 8,000, sorted through them in my sister's shed, and he picked out a selection, then we put them on a website,

which is a lovingverse.com, a love inverse, yeah, dot com, and it was just an incredible, yeah, they're so beautiful, and it's like a whole journey through their relationship. And I think I've sort of tried to continue. It's so weird how all of the sort of things move into each, other's orbit. So I chose Mother Courage because of my mum. My mum was alive when I was approached about this. My mum's been dead 10 years this year. But my mum, Alison King, was alive and she recommended Mother Courage to me, talked about the character. Then through the 10 years since

I was first approach, I've lost my mum. It's during the time that I was writing Mother Courage, I was writing poetry about losing my mum, but also writing poetry about having miscarriages. I'm so sorry. I did. Yeah. a baby. And so my publisher, Broken Sleep Books, who are an incredibly brilliant but also very cool indie poetry publisher. I'm amazed to be published by them. I very sort of brilliantly, I said, can we try and schedule the book decade coming out at the same time that Mother Courage is on? And they said, yes, so it's come out and it's so much about motherhood, it's so much about loss. about falling in love, it's all of this stuff.

So it's been a really busy few months for me. It's a big year. Well, I'm going to let people know it's called Decade. Thank you so much. And the love and verses the website. Mother Courage, of course, is on at the globe in London until June 27. So you still have a few weeks to catch it. It's been wonderful speaking to you, Anna.

Anna Jordan, thank you so much. Thanks, Neela. Thank you. Thanks for your messages coming in. A lot of you inspired by strength training. I love this strength interview. hot on the heels of the interview about osteoporosis yesterday. I took up strength training a year ago after recovering from another broken wrist. The local gym is a great circuit, mostly women, similar to myself.

Please urge people to do this from mid-40s. I was 10 years later doing it and a dexas scan last revealed out osteopenia, lower bone density than normal, but not as low as osteoporosis. We need to know this sooner, so says Fiona. Another, our Tai Chi class uses lightweights for punching and strengthening our muscles. lots of different ways. We're talking yesterday about how our bodies are amazing. The Signal Awards recognize the podcast that define culture, and being honored by the Signal awards sets your production team apart with recognition from the industry's top experts

and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards Judging Academy, an invitation body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team and stand out. The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration. On Monday's program, we featured an interview with the extraordinary Giselle Pelico. She became a symbol of courage for women globally after she was at the center of the biggest rape trial in French history. It saw her ex-husband jailed for a 20-year term and 50 other men also convicted

of assaulting her. In that interview, she told me about her decision to waive her right to anonymity and to speak out about what happened to her and the power it has given her. Today, I do feel invincible. I'm not scared of anything. The only thing that actually does worry me is the death of my nearest and dearest. But anything that can't harm you is going to make you stronger for sure. And it's that's interesting to see how we can't be. I wonder what it's like to walk down the street now or wherever you go being instantly recognizable. Well, I know where I come from. I know who I am. I'm a very simple and a very ordinary woman. And people have been incredibly kind to me. And when I see women who are suffering, I want to be able to also support that.

because I see I see some of my it's a to say it's a way to

say a way to make me have given a lot of hope optimism and voice to other

women who were silent or would have stayed silent in cases of violence sexual violence against them

so that is a wonderful legacy yes I'm actually convinced that everybody is

capable of fighting for themselves. If I was able to do it, then we can all do it. We all have the necessary resources within ourselves in order to be able to fight. We just have to be able to find them. Giselle Pelicoe,

as per word spoken through a translator, if you would like to listen to the interview in full, please do go to Monday's program this week on BBC Sounds. Now, Carl Beach, who made false accusations of murder and child's sexual abuse against public figures, was released on licence from prison earlier this year

after serving less than half of his sentence. He was jailed in 2019 for 18 years, in part for perverting the course of justice. His allegations of a Westminster paedophile ring sparked Operation Midland, which investigated allegations against high-profile figures including Lord Bramel, Sir Edward Heath, Leon Britton, all now deceased,

and Harvey Proctor, who is still alive. The inquiry, largely based on Beech's claims, cost about 2.5 million pounds. and ended without any charges. An independent review later identified 43 failings, including that officers believed Carl Beach, then publicly known as Nick, for too long, and also applied for search warrants using flawed information.

My next guest is Diana Britton, the widow of the former Conservative Home Secretary Leon Britton, one of the people falsely accused by Carl Beach. She is calling on the government to recognise those falsely accused as victims. Currently they are not. She's a signatory to a letter to the just, Secretary alongside Harvey Proctor, the family of Lord Bramwell and the Sir Edward Heath Charitable Foundation, who say they should have been informed about the release of Carl Beach.

Lady Britain's husband, Leon Britton, died in 2015, never knowing he would be completely exonerated. I spoke to Lady Britain and asked her what went through her mind when she found out that Mr Beach had been released. Well, for one thing, we were not told. I was not told. I heard that he had been released, or he was about to be released through a journalist who rang me up and said, did you know it? And I said, no. What went through my mind was that I felt that we should have been told. I would have liked to have known that he'd been released early, but that wasn't to happen.

Why was it or is it so important that you be told in advance? I suppose what I would have wanted to have known, whether in the terms of his license, there was some perhaps prohibition about further making allegations against my husband, that sort of thing. I mean, that might have not been possible, but that's what I would have liked to have had an assurance on, is that he was not going to go out and repeat it all again on social media or any other platform, saying it was all true. I really wouldn't have wanted that to have happened. And I would have hoped that there would have been safeguards in place to stop that happening. If you are the victim of a criminal offence and the each successive governments does much

more of a victim-led approach to those who've been affected, in this particular case, those who are affected by unfair and untrue allegations, and particularly of the nature of the sort of allegations against my husband, are not informed because in the event of being. charges Carl Beachwiles with perversion of the course of justice. The only victim is the crown and not those who are affected directly by having their reputations trashed. And I know to that end, you, Harvey Proctor, the family of Lord Bramall and the Edward Heath Foundation have written to the Justice Secretary about your concern about not being recognised as victims in cases, where the perpetrator had perverted the course of justice.

Explore that a little bit further with me. Well, cases of this sort are relatively rare. But in this particular instance, we, all three of us, were accused of the most heinous crimes you could possibly imagine. And therefore, my late husband has his reputation trashed, as indeed did the others. and so we are very much affected by somebody else's criminal offences. The fact that we have no recourse to being told the date of somebody's release,

the possible terms of their licence, really for our own interest and for our own protection, seems to be completely crazy in our current justice system, which is very much victim-led in terms of, post-release. Let us stay with that word victim. Harvey Proctor is the only person who was directly accused

and who is still alive mentioned in the letter. Some might say that makes him the direct victim. I'd like to know how do you see your own position in that? It is absolutely true

that Harvey Proctor is the direct victim still alive. On the other hand, my husband died in 2015 after the accusations been made. And I, as his spouse, in fact, and his wife, have very much fought over the last 11 years to do what I can to restore his reputation

because he's not there to do it for himself. And so I feel that although, of course, I'm not a direct victim, it is quite unfathomable, I think, to anybody. what it's like to have your husband accused of such heinous crimes. If we go back to that time around 2014 when the allegations began to surface, how would you describe how it affected you and your husband and your family? Well, remember, the accusations were made in December 14 publicly with the police saying that these allegations were credible and true without any investigation having taken place.

And my husband then died towards the end of January. He was extremely ill. He'd been in hospital. He came out of hospital in the second week of January and then died very shortly thereafter. And so when he was very ill, it was not a subject we ever discussed together. Why would you? I would go and see him in hospital and we would talk about other things. and if anything, I kept as much as I could from him because I didn't want to upset him further. I can understand that, but you have also spoken about the police searching your home

shortly after your husband died. Can you describe to us how that affected you? Well, this was roughly six weeks after Leon had died and I was alone in the house. I was trying to respond to some letters of condolence. I'd had many letters of condolence, which I was replying to. And there was a knock at the door at 8.20. And there was some police officers outside saying that they had a search warrant.

In fact, they had two search warrants because I had at that time a house in North Yorkshire. And I was just shocked and horrified. I didn't know what to do or what to say. And so I think I went into the kitchen and, of course, a friend of mine. And when she came round, we heard one of the police officers saying, Lady Britain has had no time to hide any evidence. So I felt at that particular day, when perhaps I should have been treated as a rather more vulnerable person, but I was being treated as an accessory to a crime. And you can imagine how that feels. I've been a magistrate for

nearly 25 years and I know all about search warrants and I just felt that this was the most shocking thing that it ever had happened to me. You did later receive compensation and an apology from the Metropolitan Police. Did that help you in any way? Well, indeed. The search, as it turned out, was illegal. And the Lord Bramwell and myself were compensated with some compensation. And in fact, I was very keen to say publicly that I wish to give it all away to charity,

which in fact I did. and I set up some scholarships that are nearby university here in the North East. So, yes, the apology I don't think was ever much of an apology. They apologise for searching, but they never apologise in any way subsequently for what they'd actually done or in DAPFIA that the Operation Middleman was rather flawed

in the way to the police investigated it. We do have a statement from the Metropolitan Police, their spokesperson said, our handling of Operation Midland remains a matter of deep regret. We're committed to ensuring these errors are never repeated. Operation Midland has rightly been subject to extensive scrutiny, including an independent review in 2016,

while the IOPC found no evidence of officer misconduct, their investigation exposed serious failings, and we've taken steps to improve investigative standards across the force. Specifically, the Met has strengthened how we apply for and manage search warrants. This has improved the quality consistent, and legal robustness of warrant applications. Does that give any comfort?

Well, that statement is all very well, and maybe one can believe it, but I've had no real evidence from the metropolitan and the police themselves about exactly what they have done to improve all the failings, which the High Court judge of Richard Enriquez pointed out in Operation Midland. And, of course, they can say all of that, But what is very difficult to understand is exactly what they've done.

And I would be very grateful myself to be told face to face by Sir Mark Rowley what exactly they have done. So that for other people in the future, this never happens again. Mark Rowley, the police commissioner of the Metropolitan Police. You know, you alluded also to your husband's reputation and the damage that was inflicted. More than a decade on, do you feel your husband's reputation? has been fully repaired? Well, I think I suppose if I were to be absolutely honest, this type of accusation, even 10 years on,

even with all the efforts I've tried to make in order to restore his reputation, there is always still a bit of what I would now refer to as an indelible stain. The police have never said, ever, as far as I can remember, that these men were innocent of the crimes that they were accused of. Never, never has that word been used. And I just feel that I do what I can, and I hope and I pray, that his reputation is much restored. Because actually, my husband was a great public servant.

He served as an MP. He was the European Commissioner. And he very much believed in the sort of the institutions of the United Kingdom. Coming back to the definition of victim, do you ever think that there could be, be a risk of widening the definition of victim too far. We spoke earlier about direct victims, but also others that you feel should be considered victims in cases like this. Well, I think as I said before, there are very, very few cases of perversion of the course of justice, and sometimes they involve false accusations. So I would say that in this rather narrow

definition, it would be perfectly reasonable to be treated like other victims by the criminal justice system. You did write to the Justice Secretary in March. Have you had a response? No. We've neither had a response or an acknowledgement. And I happen to think that, and certainly because one of the signatures was the Edward Heath Foundation, but it is discourteous. of the Ministry of Justice not to have even acknowledged our letter, let alone to have made any substantive comments on it. How do you understand the non-response? Well, I don't think I know.

I mean, my late husband was indeed a minister of the Crown, and he was a Secretary of State. I think his private office would always have sent an acknowledgement letter saying, we've received your letter, and we should be looking at it, but we've received absolutely nothing, dead silent, from the Ministry of Justice. And not getting a response? What impact does that have on you?

Well, I just feel that, well, I firstly feel that it's discourteous. You know, it's not a completely ridiculous, rubbishy letter. I mean, it's a letter making a very serious point about something that whatever the response is, I'd like something, because otherwise it just hangs in the air. And some might ask, what motivates you to continue speaking out after so many? years? Well, I'm very simply motivated. I have no interest in doing anything for myself. It's too late for my husband, but I'm very concerned that this never happens again to anyone else in the

future. And plenty of people, you can be in any community, any part of the country, urban, suburban, rural, a member of the community against whom false accusations are made. And with it goes to the subsequent trashing of people's reputations. I just don't want anything that happened to me to happen to them. And so in the future, if it changed the way you wanted it to, I don't know whether it's a law change or whether it's a policy change or whether it's a practice change. What I don't know. I'm not a lawyer myself. But I just feel that it would make all quote, unquote, victims of crime on an even footing. Lady Britain, the widow of former Conservative Home Secretary Leon Britton,

thanks very much to her. A Ministry of Justice spokesperson did give us this statement. They said this was a terrible case. Our thoughts remained with the victims and those affected by Carl Beach's crimes. While these cases are extremely rare, we continue to keep the law under constant review. Thanks for your messages coming in. I started CrossFit, says Fiona. In January, I'm 68.

When I started, I was overweight and suffering from stable angina. Five months on, my BMI is normal. My angina is asymptomatic. And yesterday I was droplifting 30 kilos. Weightlifting is transformative. Here's another. I don't drive, so I walk everywhere and carry my own shopping. Recently, I visited a friend in his first floor flat.

There was a parcel addressed to him in the hallway, so I carried it up the stairs. He couldn't believe a woman my age, almost 77, could lift it. I've had skinny arms all my life. And they still have no obvious muscles, but they're not. they must be stronger than they look. So says Julia. 844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, have you ever taken a make or break holiday with your partner?

Imagine looking at your partner on the way to the airport and thinking this isn't working before you decide to spend extended time with them together. Well, Claire Powell has addressed all of this in her latest book. It's called All In. Dave and Joe are joining their family on a holiday. It's a luxurious trip to a hotel in the Mediterranean. But it has been a tricky time for them. as they've been through multiple unsuccessful rounds of IVF,

which has put a huge strain on their relationship. To make it even trickier, their family is coming along to. Claire Powell, welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you so much for having me. So all in, it took me a bit, sometimes I can be a bit slow, that that was referring to lots of things, including an all-inclusive holiday. Absolutely, yeah.

It was a, do you know what, I actually had the title a long time ago. Really? Before I wrote the novel, I actually wrote a short story in my 20s, about a couple going on holiday to an all-inclusive hotel. And I always loved the all-in of the, yeah, the double entendre of the different, the different meanings that it has. But certainly, yeah, with this, it's an all-inclusive hotel and also other couple going to be all-in.

I suppose all-inclusive is so in opposition to our regular day-to-day life. Yes. Like you don't have to think about anything. You're not going to get decision fatigue there. No, no. Everything is there for. you, you're just sort of gliding around in luxury and often when we're in these places, we think that we imagine ourselves being somewhere that feels like sort of paradise.

And then when you're there, you realize that you are still yourself and you are still with your partner who's getting on your nerves or your family members who are getting on your nerves. And none of those sort of things can make it much better, really. Which is what we see play out in this particular novel, which is very funny, so sharply observed. I loved reading it, but also, you know, has lots of depth in it. And all of life, the humour but also sadness, the intensity, and then the lightness and superficial at times as well.

We have a number of people that are going on holiday. Joe and Dave, as I mentioned, the central couple. Brother Teddy, where did you find him? Oh, Teddy. I've known some Teddies in my life. Teddy, Teddy from Dubai, who has moved to Dubai. He's a sort of flashy elder brother. And he has best intentions. He does have good intentions.

I mean, I, you know, we said earlier, Teddy is annoying. And I think people do find Teddy annoying. But I think he is trying. But his trying is incredibly annoying because he's, you know, it's all on me. everybody, but also please thank me for it, make sure that I am, you know, it's not an altruistic act. He's looking for the gratitude. Absolutely.

He has a very glamorous girlfriend that comes and then also dad, Alan. But those dynamics, family dynamics in such a luxury setting, is that something, I don't know, does that spark something for you creatively? I think that the characters, the family. are characters that I always write about. I'm often sort of drawn to these very, I'm going to say ordinary like that, but sort of an ordinary family from Southeast London. And what I wanted to do was this sort of fish out of water.

So taking them from their kind of very ordinary suburbany, where they live to somewhere that's different and where they are interacting with different people, there are, you know, guests in the hotel and people who work at the hotel that they're kind of, coming into contact with and who are changing their lives and experiences. They can have that other identity perhaps or thinking about other lives. But the life of Joe and Dave has been, they've been together for many years.

They have a very stable life with their dog, Nancy, but they're going away on holiday, not on the best of terms, really because they've been through something monumental. Yeah, they've been through years. They are 42. and they are at the sort of end of a journey of multiple fertility treatments. Yeah. That have been unsuccessful. And the trip, you know, it isn't timed this way, but she, I think the trip happens in the summer and her last round was at Christmas.

And so Joe is just in this sort of frame of mind of what now. And whether they stay together, whether or whether, or whether. there's too much pain or grief there to actually be able to continue. You're going to read a little for us, which I think brings us so deeply into it immediately. Yeah. How did people do this? How did they carry on as a couple when there was so much pain, so much longing? Even now when that longing had subsided, when it was only the grief left, how did they do it? Joe understood how couples with children stayed together. You stayed together for the children. But how did couples without children do it. It seemed to require so much love, that selfless kind of love you learn about as a

child in Sunday school, tolerance, forgiveness, understanding. Wouldn't it be easier to just start again, move on, leave the pain in the past and try something new? That's what they said about falling in love, wasn't it? The opportunity to become someone new, someone better. There had to be something better, Joe thought, had to be another life out there, futures neither of them had considered. Wow, that's a real turning point, I think, as she's looking at their relationship. But I understand you've had your own experience with IVF. Were you pulling some of those strands? Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, the book is fictional, but I, you know, used my own feelings and experiences and peppered them around into the characters. And this was a way of me to explore a lot of the pain of infertility. I mean, I have children now, but for me, that experience doesn't feel that long ago. You know, it's not like you have children, you go over it. I still very, still very close to that version of me that had that longing and that really wanted children. And I still feel that connection to other women, whether I am talking to a 31-year-old who says she spent a year trying for a baby with her partner and, you know, they haven't got there yet or a friend who's really struggling to conceive their second child. I'm just there immediately. I remember that feeling

and that was what I wanted to give Joe, really, or put into the Joe character. And how was that to write it? I guess. I don't know that it was, it probably was cathartic in a way because I hadn't, I think I hadn't expressed a lot of my feelings before.

I'm somebody maybe who finds things easier to write them down and that I could give everything to a character that I hadn't said to somebody. So yeah, it was good for me. And, you know, it didn't, it felt meaty and it felt like something that I wanted to write about. It didn't feel, oh, I can't go there. I wanted to go there.

Yeah. And we get ideas of where Dave is as well in this journey. And I think that's quite a beautiful thing as well because it can sometimes centre more on a woman's experience and we don't always hear the other side because there's two people in that couple. Yeah, there's two people and there's a lot of, I think what happens a lot in relationships

is you're not necessarily honest with each other about how you're feeling because it's one of the only things in your life where it's a shared goal. You know, it's not like you're going for a job or one of your parents has died. It's something that you've shared together. and sometimes it might feel like you're trying to present yourselves as on way to your partner

because you want your partner to feel good about it or you know and so that felt like as soon as I got the Dave character and the Dave voice I was sort of off writing it because I really enjoyed that two-hander of playing with what what each of them know what they don't know what the reader knows and what they're keeping back from each other, what's the truth. Yeah, which leads to suspense, which there is all through the novel as well. There is, I suppose, all of life is there really, sibling rivalry, financial difficulties, care responsibilities, who's the parents' favourite? How do you write kind of in and out of each of those dynamics?

I don't know. it kind of just comes. I mean, I don't, I don't plot heavily. I just, it takes me a long time to get into a project. And then once I've found those voices or the people that I want to get into the heads of, yeah, then I'm just, just off one after another. I mean, with, with this, I had two days of a week of writing while my son was at nursery. And I said to myself, I'm going to write a, a time. I'm going to write a, chapter a week. And so I'm just going to move on. I was going to be Joe and then next week will be Dave and then it will be Joe and I won't look back until I finished it and then it will come to sort of editing it. So you're kind of inhabiting that person for those few days. That week is Dave. This week is Dave is Dave. Dave is who I'm going to be thinking about. Dave going to, you know, a restaurant on the coast with his brother and his dad. That's where my head is this week. That's where the things that are keenly observed. I'm not giving a spoiler when I talk about Dave's

phone, there's somebody he doesn't want to speak to. And you describe the phone at one point like a grenade. And I was like, what a good description when there's something that you're avoiding, but it's almost impossible to avoid if your phone is charged. I mean, one way out of it is don't charge your phone. Yeah. Don't charge your phone. Leave it in somebody's bedroom. But yeah, we all know that feeling of waiting for something on your phone or just not wanting to get a call or a message. and it kind of becomes this sort of, yeah, dangerous thing that you've got close to you. So a dangerous thing close to you. All In is by Claire Powell.

Do you consider it a beach read? I'm absolutely happy for it to be a beach read. Why does beach read get such bad? Exactly. Why does it give us... Do you know what? I consciously thought as I was writing it, I'm writing a beach read. I want it to be, I want it to be something that is page ternary, that is entertaining, that is fun.

but do you know what I'm also going to put some psychological insight in there and some deep issues and feelings and so but please enjoy it on holiday and enjoy it after holiday too hopefully I very much did Claire Powell All In is available from tomorrow tomorrow exactly yeah published tomorrow well best of luck with all of that I want to let people know on tomorrow's program Kylie Pentelow will be hearing from some of the residents of Britain's first purpose-built co-housing community that was designed by and for women over 50 as it celebrates its 10-year anniversary.

Kylie here tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Women's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, it is Danny Robbins here for years now on Uncanny. We have explored real people's potentially paranormal experiences. But one thing that listeners have often asked me is why don't we look at supernatural cases from the past? Well, you asked and we listened.

Our new series, Uncanny Cold Cases, takes a deep dive into some of these stories, from the most haunted house in England to the original UFO abduction case. Can we make sense of these strange stories that have haunted history? Uncanny cold cases, listen on BBC Sounds. The Signal Awards recognise the podcast that define culture, and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart. with recognition from the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards Judging

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