Woman's Hour - Lady Glenconner, Ukraine, Clever girls, The Clitoris

Episode Date: November 24, 2022

Lady Glenconner, Anne Tennant, the eldest child of the fifth Earl of Leicester, was lady-in-waiting to Princess Margaret for three decades. She says her mother brought her up to cope with a fundamental truth of her class and time: women must put up and shut up, and so had been taught to smile through life in high society despite the brutality of a husband who left her deaf in one ear. After the success of her first memoir three years ago a second has just been published. Joining Emma live in the studio she explains why she was compelled to write Whatever Next? Lessons From An Unexpected Life. President Zelensky has accused Russia of "crimes against humanity" after a new missile barrage caused blackouts across Ukraine. Yesterday we heard of a two day old baby dying when a maternity unit was bombed in the southern Zaporizhia region. How are these developments affecting women and girls? Emma hears from Jess Parker, BBC Correspondent in Ukraine at the moment. This Saturday, the Ukrainian Institute in London, alongside other organisations, have organised an event to discuss sexual violence in the war in Ukraine. Emma talks to one of the speakers, Anna Kvit, a research fellow at University College London looking into women in war and their response to war. With the release of Matilda the Musical in cinemas this week, Emma Barnett speaks to author and podcaster Daisy Buchanan and QI Elf and writer Anne Miller about being so-called 'girly swots' at school and how it has shaped them in adulthood.You may have heard that the clitoris has 8,000 nerve endings, but that number comes from a 1970s study on cows. New research shows the clitoris actually has over 10,000 nerve endings. Does this increase in number matter? Emma asks science journalist Rachel E Gross and Dr Brooke Vandermolen, an NHS Obstetrics and Gynaecology Registrar.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, Tim Harford here. I'm the undercover economist, the presenter of Radio 4's More or Less, and more pertinently right now, the host of a new Radio 4 podcast, Understand the Economy. Each episode I'll help cut through the fog of financial jargon to bring you to the crisp, bright daylight of understanding the world around us. If you don't really understand what inflation is, why mortgage rates have shot up or what that GDP thing stands for, this is the podcast for you. That's Understand the Economy, available now on BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. You know those discoveries about women, something perhaps we've been thinking is the case

and then turns out to be completely different simply because no research was done or no adequate research. Well, I have one of those for you today because it turns out scientists have recently discovered that the clitoris has 10,000 nerve endings, not 8,000 as originally thought. Why this update? Because new research has actually been performed on women as opposed to cows, I kid you not, and that's the study the earlier figure was relying on and it was from the 70s. We'll get into the science in more detail later in the programme, but I did want to ask you today, with new information still coming to light about major parts of women's bodies and so much research still yet to do, how did you first learn about

the clitoris? Was it a word you heard from someone? Do you remember it? Did a teacher, parent or friend mention this word? What it actually meant in your body? How it worked? What were you told? Was it true? We'll be trying to separate fact from fiction a bit later on with this discussion, but I'd appreciate your help. A lot has been said about women learning themselves about themselves, but perhaps they haven't been relying on the best information. That's a whole other story as well. The number is 84844 that you need to text me here at the programme on social media or at BBC Women's Hour, or send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. Data charges could

apply, so just check you might wish to use Wi-Fi instead. Also on today's programme, following on from our conversation yesterday about the story of Roald Dahl's Matilda, with Andrea Rysborough, who plays Mrs Wormwood, Matilda's mother, in the new film out tomorrow, girly swats are in the spotlight with two academically gifted women. And I'll be weaving in some of your brilliant messages that I didn't get the chance to read yesterday

about how you perhaps relate to Matilda, the character, and anyone in your family too. It was a lot of lovely messages. Thank you for those. And Lady Glenconner will be here. Known as Princess Margaret's lady in waiting for three decades, now aged 90,

she's stepping out of the shadows of all those around her to tell her own remarkable story. All that to come and more, so don't go anywhere. But first, we need to turn our attention to Ukraine, because President Zelensky has accused Russia of crimes against humanity after a new missile barrage caused blackouts across the country. Yesterday, we heard of a two-day-old baby dying when a maternity unit was bombed in the southern Zaporizhia region.

How are these developments affecting women and girls? Jess Parker is the BBC correspondent in Ukraine for us at the moment. Jess, good morning. Jess Parker, I'm hoping I have you there. Can you hear me? Good morning. Let's just see if we can fix that line. Our correspondent for us in Ukraine. I'm hoping she's there. Hello, Jess Parker. A little bit of an issue. We will come back to Jess in just a moment to get a bit of a picture of what she's seeing on the ground with relation to women and girls. According to Ukraine,

at least 34,000 possible war crimes have been carried out by Russian forces since February. Russia denies its troops intentionally target civilians or have committed atrocities in occupied areas. But sadly, we know when we're thinking about women and girls, that in any war zone, there will be sexual violence meted out on local women. And this Saturday, the Ukrainian Institute here in the UK and in London, alongside other organisations, have organised an event to discuss this issue, specifically sexual violence in the war in Ukraine,

as it's titled. Among the speakers at this weekend's event, Anna Kavit, a research fellow at the University College London, looking into women in war and their response to it. She's from Kiev and moved to the UK earlier this year. I spoke to her just before coming on air this morning and started by asking how she's doing watching what's happening in Ukraine at the moment. I'd like to say that I'm doing OK, but it's difficult to see what happens in Ukraine. For example, this night they were all without connection, mobile connection, without internet. And many of them are without electricity, without heating, without access to the stoves. So it's rather painful and devastating. Are you in touch with friends and family who are still there at the moment?

Absolutely, regularly. I would say that all my main people are there. If we look at the women of Ukraine and the response, I know this is your focus, in your work you look at how the women are part of policy, part of the response, part of the fight back, but also are being used and are victims as well. What do you want to say about that? We know that wars affect women and men disproportionately and in different ways. And one of the effects of this war of Russia against Ukraine is that women are facing with conflict-related sexual violence, being raped and sexually violated in many other different ways,

and that Russia is using it as a weapon of war. It must be quite a hard thing for you to talk about and to think about that reality. It is. It is very emotional because I read a lot about it and the level of violence is so big. They do such horrible things to the population of Ukraine that I cannot imagine that somebody can actually do this, that it can be in somebody's head. It is really emotional indeed. In fact, conflict-related sexual violence is used against women and men of different age in Ukraine at the moment. So men are also victims to this crime, but the majority of the cases is committed against women.

And this is considered to be an invisible crime because it's extremely underreported. It is very difficult to prove it, but we know that it is happening. Officially, there are about 150 cases registered, but these numbers tell us nothing. And even UN agencies who registered those cases, they agree that the actual numbers are way higher. It's like 100 times more. Is that lack of visibility on how many women this is affecting? Is that because they don't feel they have anywhere to go to report it? Or there's the shame associated with talking about this?

Well, the majority of these crimes are committed at the occupied territories. So the territory is occupied by the Russian military and there is nowhere to go. Ukrainian police or law enforcement don't have any access to that territory, so they cannot report it. And then when they can, survivors of violence, of sexual violence in Ukraine and in any other country, they face with stigmatization.

And usually it's a stigmatization from the society and it's also self-stigmatization so the society thinks what you were wearing why you were at the street at that time of the day and things like this but then survivors would think what I could have done differently to avoid it so it's a very big shame but also the procedure of getting information, the details about the crime is also very humiliating and painful because survivors are usually treated as the source of information about the perpetrator. So there is a lack of survivor-centred approach. in London about what's going on about the war in Ukraine and specifically about gender-based violence and that being used as a weapon of war, which the UN Security Council did recognise sexual violence as a weapon of war only relatively recently in 2008. But what chances are there or how could it actually work where perpetrators are brought to justice. Do you have any view on that?

I hope that with the previous experiences of wars, some lessons were learned. And I know that in Ukraine now they are developing the legislation, they're working hard to bring to justice the perpetrators. How and when could justice happen, do you think? Well, nobody knows when it can happen because in case with, for example, former Yugoslavia, justice started to happen like five or seven years ago and the war happened in the 90s. So I really don't know when it will happen, but I know that these cases of conflict-related sexual violence are already being registered and criminal cases are already being opened in Ukraine by our law enforcement agencies.

So what can be done at the moment is being done, but some of this could take years. Yes, at this moment it is important to register such cases and to collect all the evidence. I know your research focuses on two areas. You look at women in war and the policies and that you also want to talk about women in civil society, in particular, playing a big role in the resistance, keeping Ukrainian society going, as well as, you know, the resistance itself. What do you think we in the UK should know about that and about women's role? Well, women's role is very big, in fact, and very important. And again, it's not often visible because the official decision makers at the political level are mainly men, not all of them. There are women there as well, of course. But civil society is doing a lot.

And in the context of conflict-related sexual violence, they are providing a lot of services to survivors. And, for example, psychological services. They are informing society and women in Ukrainian society about these risks, how to avoid them if it's possible, what to do if this happened to a woman. So they are working with healthcare institutions, sharing information on how to approach these cases, how to talk with these women, what to say and what not to say. And they are trying to do the same with law enforcement agencies and with police. Anna Kavik, a research

fellow at the University College of London, speaking ahead of that event in London at the weekend, looking at sexual violence in the war in Ukraine and how women and girls are being affected. Jess Parker, I was hoping to cross to you, I'm hoping I can now, our BBC correspondent in Ukraine at the moment. Jess, good morning. Good morning, Emma. Sorry about that. No, no, don't worry. These things happen and we're grateful to hear from you today.

And I mentioned a few areas that I thought we could go into in some more detail. First of all, I mentioned the air raid sirens sounding across Ukraine, missile strikes cutting power. What's the situation this morning? With the situation this morning here in Kyiv, we've had an update from the mayor Vitaly Klitschko, who said that 70% of the city was still without electricity, quite a big portion of it without water as well.

Now, worth mentioning that even before yesterday's missile strikes, we were seeing outages, many of them actually kind of planned and scheduled. It's interesting, Emma, if you go out and talk to people, they will show you how they know that their power is going to be off between, say, 6am for four hours, and they kind of try and work around it. But obviously, yesterday's strikes, again, causing further damage to infrastructure that they were already trying to repair. And as you mentioned, the air raid sirens are sounding across Ukraine. I mean, of course, we heard them here in Kiev. And even if you're a little bit used to them, because you've heard them before, they still give you that sort of sense of alarm and anxiety and people obviously heading down to take shelter in areas to wait until those

strikes have finished. And when we did emerge, when it was safe to do so, of course, what we found was that there was considerable destruction, again, not just actually to energy infrastructure, but of course, there have been residential buildings. And that maternity unit, of course, had been hit overnight as well. Yes, which I wanted to go to. What else can you tell us about the strike on the maternity unit earlier this week? And I should say, it's not the first time a maternity ward has been targeted. No, that's right. Of course, back in March, many might remember that there was a maternity hospital struck in Mariupol, which left three dead. And what happened with this one in the town of Vilnyansk, which is just east of the city of Zaporizhia, so quite near the front line.

And this was separate to the attacks that appeared to happen in infrastructure yesterday during the daytime. It had happened overnight. we know is that there was one woman in the hospital at the time with her two day old baby and that while she was rescued from the rubble we're told that her kind of injuries were relatively light a doctor was rescued as well but very sadly her very young baby died in that incident. Yes and that was news we wanted to make sure we heard a bit more about because I think you take things in about what's going on in the war, but the details of the individual stories

and of course here on Women's are looking at women's lives in particular. It's important to try and give some time to, especially the individuals where we do hear about what's happened. Have you been able to talk to some of the women on the ground see how they are coping because we were just hearing from that the research fellow Anna at UCL at

University College London that women form a big part of the resistance there's a lot going on on the ground of course focus a lot on the soldiers and the the contribution which you know there are women in the military but there's also this whole other movement of women at home yeah of course i mean speaking to people um over the last couple of days of course many people when they for example hear about these things happening in the front line or very sad stories of very young children dying they are angry and they are upset but of course many people aren't particularly shocked. And I think for men and women as well, they recognize now as they go about their day to day lives, or whether they are involved in the resistance, that they are living in a place of relative

danger, even if you're quite far away from the front line, clearly, you're in less danger. But we see these missile strikes reaching far into Ukraine. But I think there's also a sense of resolve that they want to try and continue with life despite the dangers because it's their country and they want to stay and they want to make it work the best they can. And there's this sense as well that for some people they feel it's what kind of Vladimir Putin wants from their perspective for Ukrainians to leave Ukraine, whether it's men or women. They want to keep trying to build those communities and build lives, even if it is a country at war. Jess Parker, our BBC correspondent in Ukraine, thank you for that and for that focus. And of course, we'll keep you up to date on any of the stories or any of the issues that are raised at that particular conference, which is going on with a focus on women and girls this weekend here to Princess Margaret for three decades from 1971 until the princess's death in 2003.

Also maid of honour to the late Queen Elizabeth at her coronation in 1953. Lady Glen Connor, Anne Tennant, was born into aristocracy, the eldest child of the fifth Earl of Leicester. For 54 very interesting but also turbulent years, I think she'll allow me to say, she was married to Colin Tennant, later Lord Glen Connor, the English aristocrat, who famously bought the island of Mustique in the West Indies, turning it into an exclusive resort for the likes of Princess Margaret, Mick Jagger, David Bowie and others. Her first memoir in 2019 became a bestseller. She's just published her second. Why not? It's called Whatever Next?

Lessons from an Unexpected Life. Good morning, Lady Anne. Lovely to have you here. Hello. I'm very pleased to be here. And it's quite the thing. You did one and now you've done another. It's actually your fourth book, I believe.

But what made you want to put pen to paper again? Well, I was amazed by the success of Lady in Waiting. And what I wasn't expecting was so many letters from people from all over the world. And I hinted at various things in Lady in Waiting. And I just thought I had lots more to say. And so I put pen to paper and produced whatever next. And here it is. I'm sitting next to it. And there's a lot in there that you've probably not said before in quite such a way. Did you find that liberating?

I did. You know, especially, of course, about domestic abuse. I had a long talk with my children. I wasn't quite sure whether I should write about it and then I was very much inspired by the Queen Consort who's really brought it out into the public view and I've written about it and I've already started to receive letters from people who suffer from the same thing and wanted really to thank me in a way

for bringing it out in the public eye. Yes, as you're talking about the Queen Consort, her work with women and those who have suffered at the hands of abusers, often their partners, their husbands, their nearest and dearest. We had, as she was the Duchess of Cornwall, on for a special programme where we talked to her about this as an interest. And she said she knew people, you know, where this was the situation on. You know, everybody sort of knows somebody, but it's if they talk about it or not. And it's that bit that's very difficult. Did you ever think at the age of 90 you would be talking about how those less known

and certainly away from the glamour of those parties, that part of your life actually was playing out? No, I mean, I've had an extraordinary life, really. I was never thought about writing a book. But I happen to sit next to a young publisher, Tom Perrins. And I'm always very good at stories. I'm ravaging away with my stories. And he said, have you ever thought of writing a book? And I said, well, no, I'm 87 and I can't type.

I can't do anything. So he said, no, just dictate it. And that's what I did. And I think that's probably why it was such a success because it was my voice rather. I think when you write, you fiddle about with it and change it. But people said, oh, did you get writer's block? And I said, no, no, I got writer's diarrhea. I mean, it all came flooding out. And since I've written this

second book, I've found that it was a great release, actually. And what was quite interesting, I talked to my children. I said, do you mind me writing this about dad? And they said, no, of course not. And they then told me stories which I'd never heard about what Colin had done to them. And because of that, we have a sort of really, a much easier, lovely relationship now. So I'm, you know, actually very pleased. I mean, you do go into detail in the book.

You talk about one particular situation where he hit you so hard you lost some hearing. Is that right? Yes. That's why I'm looking. Yes, exactly. I can't hear one ear. Because of what happened? Yeah. And did you tell anyone at the time? Well, one or two people knew. My mother knew. And that was her alteration. I mean, we got Colin and she said, if you ever do this again, you know, Anne's leaving you and we're going to support her. And he never did that.

I mean, he did other things, spitting and often when I've interviewed women who've been in this situation, they get used to certain forms of behaviour that they don't think of as normal, but it becomes their life. Did you realise that this wasn't how it should be? Because there was a lot of psychological elements of what he was doing. Well, I did. I mean, at the beginning, it was very, very difficult. And I just thought, like people do, that it's partly one's own fault. And, you know, I was brought up, you know, my generation were brought up quite tough, really. And we were meant to carry on, you know, and do the best we could. And that's what I tried.

And I don't, I must say, I wouldn't encourage anybody to stay in a marriage like that Would you not? No, I wouldn't but I was very lucky because in the end he went to live in the West Indies

I was in England with the children I mean, we always talked I mean, we actually got on very well on a certain level and, you know I enjoyed being with him a lot of the time. I suppose also you have at this end, you say at the end of his life, he says to you,

it wasn't all bad, was it? And there's a sort of achievement in some ways from you, it seems, that you stayed together. There was something about that as well. Yes, I mean, I feel very glad I did, you know. I did once go back to my mother right at the early stages and said, I don't think I can manage. I can't cope with him.

I don't know what to do. And she quite rightly said, because I was expecting our first child, she said, Anne, you married him, you'll go straight back and get on with it, which I did for 54 years. But you think things have changed and you wouldn't give that advice today? That would be something that you think has... No, I think that, you know, I was very lucky that we had, we sort of lived really apart, which made it possible at the end.

But no, I wouldn't ever encourage anybody to stay in a sort of marriage like that. Have you had any of your friends since writing this who didn't know perhaps or people in your life who've come to you and had a response to this? Well, yes and no. I mean, all my great friends sort of knew. I didn't sort of dot the I's and cross the T's.

But the great thing was that with friends, you try and make it as OK as possible. You laugh about it. And they used to say, what is the matter with your husband? And that's what I said in Lady in Waiting. My attitude there was a bit breezy. And I realised, because of all the letters I got from people,

that I would like to go into it in more detail. And maybe I hope this book will help people too. At the end of the book, I've got these addresses of places that people can go for help. Because the irony as well was one of the charities you were supporting was a women's refuge at the time. Or you had a link with those sorts of charities. Was that right? Yes, I mean, I had a lot of different charities I helped. But one of them was Erin Pitsey, who was the first person to create safe houses for people.

And one of the things I used to... I raised money for her. But one of the things we said, it was a free telephone number, and we said if anybody rang, we'd come and collect them from the telephone box. And I must say it was generally at night because these women could escape from their husbands. And it was so sad. You know, you'd arrive and there was a woman bashed up. And then one or two or three children in their 90s clutching a teddy bear, you know. And then we used to take them off to a safe house.

Yeah, well, it's very important work. It still continues in lots of different ways. And you talk about your own coping strategies and how you thought about things. I mean, a part of your coping strategy was also to take a lover. Well, that was true. The thing was that Colin had endless ladies in his life. And I just thought, well, you know, why not? And it just made all the difference to my life.

It was somebody who was kind. And it actually altered my idea about men. Because men in my life, my father, who fought in the war, he's in the Scots Guards, he fought in L.A fought in lma and he was never the same my mother said after the war he's quite difficult and fussy and i didn't get on with him really very well and then there was colin and so i you said the men in my life were you know um and so i decided to take a lover. And he was with me for 34 years. I didn't see him all that much. But, you know.

And it changed your relationship and your view of sex as well and being intimate. Well, it did, yes. Because I think people who live with abuse, I think sex is very difficult, you know. And to have sex with somebody who really loves one and is gentle and kind and funny, lots of laughter. Very important. Lots of laughter. Laughter is very, very important.

And it just made it possible for me to carry on and, you know, I hesitate to recommend it to everybody because maybe some of your listeners might be rather shocked but if you are in a situation like i was it does make all the difference well i have to say we're getting a lot of messages about something else i asked at the beginning of the program which does relate to sex and i just saw a very funny message which i thought you'd enjoy because we're going to be talking to some scientists and those in the know about a recent discovery to do with women and the clitoris and how we were thinking it was one thing in terms of nerve endings and now we know a lot more because the research that had been done was on a cow not actually on women i've been asking our listeners

how they first discovered more about their own bodies certainly our women listeners and i think i was at least 30 reads this message when I discovered the clitoris and by gum, what a revelation when I finally got there. So a lot of people also feel they not necessarily had the best experiences of lovemaking, of sex, and they don't even know their own bodies. And I think what's so brilliant about how you've written

is you've been completely honest about your own experiences and learning things perhaps later as well. Yes, I think so. I mean, having written Lady in Waiting, it did sort of liberate me. You know, I had to ask everyone. I'm a sort of agony aunt. I'm also a gay icon, which I'm actually thrilled about.

And I did something for the Prince's Trust the other day. And they said, would you like to know who sponsored you? So I said, yes, I would. Well, it was a gay community in Milwaukee. Well, I wasn't quite sure where Milwaukee was. But anyway, when I came on there, I said, oh, you know, gentlemen, I hear you've sponsored me. Thank you so much.

And one or two of them have now come over to visit me. And very luckily, we've got a pub quite near us. I live in Norfolk. They're called the Jolly Sailor. And I'm not live in Norfolk. They're called the Jolly Sailor. And I'm not quite sure what they expect to happen at the Jolly Sailor, but actually it's a very ordinary little pub. But anyway, they go and stay there and they come and see me. And it's lovely.

Why do you think you've become a gay icon? Well, because I wrote about my darling son, Henry, who did marry and then he decided he was gay and came out. And sadly, he died of AIDS very early on, you know, when it was a tremendous stigma, AIDS. And so many of my friends, you know, suddenly wouldn't come and stay. But the one person who always supported me and came was Princess Margaret. And, I mean, I miss her so much now. And she was the one person that she knew all about, Colin. And she always gave me very good advice.

It never came from the way you expected it when I asked her a question. It came from sideways. You know, interesting the way she answered my questions. And, of course, I supported her a question. It came from sideways. You know, interesting the way she answered my questions. And of course, I supported her too. We both had difficult husbands. It was a real friendship as well as a working relationship. Yes, we didn't complain to each other the whole time.

You know, we laughed. We tried to make it better for each other by laughing and sort of looking slightly on the bright side, if you could. I mean, a whole new generation may feel they know her through The Crown on Netflix, but of course you knew the real her. Well, yes, when I was there, I was in The Crown, and I did watch that. I mean, it was complete fantasy.

I mean, Helena Bonham Carter, who played Princess Margaret, came and saw me. And we had a very good... She came for about two hours. I told her how Princess Margaret smoked, how she walked. I never actually saw Princess Margaret run. And so she said, why not? And I said, well, I think she's brought up

that people wanted to look at her and see her. And so she was brought up for, you know, that people wanted to look at her and see her. And so she was told to walk rather slowly so people could sort of see her properly. And that's what in normal life when she wasn't on show, that's what she did. She never, never ran. Anyway, I saw Helena after she'd been in The Crown. She said, what did you think? And I said, well, rather disappointing.

And she said, I know. But the thing is, I'm an actress and I have to do what's written for me. Why was it disappointing? Well, because it was a ridiculous scene when Princess Margaret went to America. I was with her, actually. And there's this scene in The Crown that she makes up dirty limericks with a bush senor, I think it was. Well, I mean, of course, she never did that.

And the other thing with me was I'm sitting there in The Crown with Princess Oil, both wearing bathing suits, and I'm pimping for her. I'm saying, ma'am, what about that young man over there? He's got a rather acute bottom. I mean, well, of course that never happened, you know. It must be quite an unusual thing to watch what's being billed at,

you know, fine as a dramatic recreation of something that didn't happen of yourself. No, and it's so interesting. I mean, I don't watch The Crown now because it just makes me so angry. And it's so unfair on members of the royal family. You know, when poor Prince Philip, they accused him in the crown

that his sister died because he did something. Well, I mean, that was completely untrue. And I think to say something like that about people is terribly hurting. I mean, nobody wants to have their relations trashed like that. Well, there's a debate about whether there's enough of a warning that it's you know not based on actual events and all of that been going on and well i don't know but i suppose they might do that i mean the trouble is that people especially in

america believe believe it completely and there's nothing much i'm going to do about it really you were as i mentioned i mean you did have a front row seat to the coronation of the late Queen Elizabeth as a maid of honour. What was it like the day before getting ready or a rehearsal? Well, it was the most exciting day of my life. And my mother hadn't booked. The whole of London was packed. You couldn't get a room anywhere. And my mother had left it rather late. So my great uncle, Jack Cook, said, well, I've got a flat. It's only got one bedroom, but you can have it.

So my mother had the bed, obviously, because she was a lady waiting to the queen. We were the only mother-daughter in the procession. And so she had the bed. And I slept on a mattress on the floor, which wasn't very conducive to sleep. But I remember waking up. Very glamorous. We wake up very early in the morning

and it was raining, but the light came in and our dresses were hanging up on the cupboard. And my dress was so beautiful because, you know, there was still rationing and I never had a dress like that. It was all beautifully embroidered.

My mother's was a golden dress. And then I remember driving to the Abbey, and people were clapping and shouting. They'd been there all night in the rain. And we arrived at the Abbey, and four of us waited for her. And suddenly we heard our coming. And around the corner came this golden coach, and it stopped, and two pages opened the door.

And we were the first people, apart from the dress, I suppose, to see her in her coronation dress, and she looked so beautiful. I mean, the dress was embroidered with all the flowers of the Commonwealth and Great Britain, and that dazzling smile and beautiful complexion and all her jewels. And we got her out of the coach and then into the Abbey. And she's waiting with her back to us. And we were standing behind her.

And the train was rippling over our hands. And then she just looked round and she said, Ready, girls? And off we went. And the Abbey, of course, it was built up right up to the ceiling and all the people in the Commonwealth were in their national dress and all the peers and peeresses. I mean, there will never be another coronation like that.

I mean, King Charles, I'm sure it'll be brilliant, but it won't be quite like that. Do you think she was nervous? No, well, she wasn't because partly I think that she'd actually seen our own father being crowned, so she'd taken in quite a lot. I know she was very, very calm and that made us very calm. It's still quite strange thinking about the fact she's not here, isn't it?

Because she's been such a constant, you know, actually, you know, realising she's no longer the Queen. You know, she's no longer here. We have a king. Are you used to it yet? I find it so strange. I mean, I knew the Queen when I was three because Princess Margaret, the Queen, my family home is Holcombe in Norfolk, which is 10 miles away from Sandringham. And they used to come. Queen Mary used to bring them. Queen Mary was quite frightening. And, of course, a minute I saw, I remember thinking,

oh, you know, Princess Margaret's going to be my friend, my sort of friend, you know. We were quite naughty together. And the Queen, actually, even then, she always looked after Princess Margaret. And I remember at Holcombe, we've got a big marble hall. Princess Margaret and I were on our tricycles, bicycling around, which we shouldn't have been. We weren't allowed to.

And the Queen, I remember coming downstairs and she said, what are you doing, Anne and Margaret? Very, very naughty. And I remember Princess Margaret and I screaming with laughter and going off. But she was always, all her life, the Queen, you know, looked after Princess Margaret. And Princess Margaret was very loyal to her. I mean, they had a great relationship together. A great sisterhood and a great friendship, it seems, between you and her.

I mean, it's reported that the Queen Consort won't take official ladies-in-waiting. She'll rely on her private secretaries. But I wonder if that's also a difference. Well, I know, I was a bit sad when I heard that. The reason for ladies in waiting is that, although we do

a lot of jobs and letters and all that sort of thing, but we're friends. And when you go abroad, a very, very busy day, and then in the evening, you know, I used to go up to Princess Margaret's sitting room, you know, and we used to have a drink and laugh and talk together. And I think ladies-in-waiting have an ear to the ground, too. They know what's going on, you know.

I think now the reason they don't perhaps have them, they take a secretary or something it's more professional now but it was great fun and if you're a lady in waiting and know somebody very well like I knew Princess Margaret you pick up things, I mean you're always in eye contact when you go

And you'll have I'm sure lots of signals Yes, absolutely Well it's been absolutely lovely to have you in the studio, coming in today, Lady Glen Connor, Lady Anne. We've got a message here saying, I'm listening to your show right now with Lady Glen Connor. What a woman. I appreciate her openness regarding her relationships and the down to earth attitude to life in general. A breath of fresh air. Thank you, says one of our listeners listening this morning. And thank you so much for coming in.

Thank you. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you, says one of our listeners listening this morning. And thank you so much for coming in. Thank you. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you. Well, to what I was just discussing, if you had read or seen perhaps the vagina monologues, you may recall that the clitoris has 8,000 nerve fibres, the only organ in the body designed purely for pleasure. Except that's not quite correct. New research done on women as opposed to cows, I kid you not, shows that the clitoris has actually over 10,000 nerve endings, 20% more than previously thought. But does the increase in number matter?

And why are we only finding out now? Joining me, Rachel E. Gross, an American science journalist and author of Vagina Obscura, An Anatomical Voyage, and Dr. Brooke van der Molen, an NHS obstetrics and gynaecology registrar, also known as the blogger, the OBGYN mum. Welcome to you both. We've had quite a lot of messages about this, as you may imagine. Rachel, tell us a bit more about testing on cows in the 70s. Yeah, I think one of the reasons this study has gone so viral is because people are learning now that this number that was bandied about by the public and honestly, as you can kind of tell by your voice, is exasperating. It's extraordinary.

Yeah, it is. But at the same time, kind of unsurprising, right? Well, yes, with some of what we know about the gaps in knowledge and this new research, though, can we trust that, do you think? Yeah, I think so. So this research, the origin story is really worth mentioning. It was two kind of unexpected doctors in conversation. One is a gender affirmation plastic surgeon who goes by queer surgeon on social media. And the other is one of the very few black women urologists in this country. So Dr. Blair Peters and Maria Uloco.

And they were talking and getting kind of annoyed that this cow number was still around and they didn't have a better reference point. And suddenly Dr. Peters was like, hey, I have access to these nerves and this is important to the patients that I work with as well. And so together, he was able to kind of use some of the nerves that he trims during an operation called phalloplasty and magnify them and count up the nerves. And I think it just speaks to how this information is important to multiple fields, and it's going to take doctors from all sorts of fields to figure it out. Do you think, to bring you into this, good morning, Brooke, do you think there's anything as a gynecologist that we'll learn from this that will be better for us as women now we know this? And how can we use this information?

Yeah, I think having any kind of research done on women rather than animal models is fantastic and so important. And I think in terms of our understanding of of the clitoris itself we've understood for a while you know its role um it the kind of some of the anatomy of it and its function but I think uh being able to map out exactly uh the nerves as they are um is really important and also just get kind of bringing that attention to to getting women involved in, I think is so important. So I'm not sure how it would change necessarily clinically so much of what we do, but I think it is so important that we have the research, the publicity to understand the anatomy of the clitoris,

the function of this important organ and knowing just how many nerve endings there are is really important for us. One of the first messages we got in this morning when I asked a question about our listeners' relationship with the clitoris, their knowledge, their knowledge perhaps of themselves, was this. It says, what is the clitoris? I actually don't know. And I'm a woman and a daughter of doctors. What do you say to that, Brooke? Well, I think it speaks a lot of our society and how we speak about the gynecological organs in general. I think there's a lot of difficulty in naming the different parts of the body. And maybe, you know, even when we're younger, we should be using better terminology perhaps.

So I'm not surprised because I think a lot of people can't, maybe can't distinguish exactly between their vulva and their vagina, for example, and certainly pointing out that exact location can be difficult for people. So the clitoris itself, it's positioned right under the point where the labia meet each other in the vulva and they form a little hood, which is known as the clitoral hood. So it's an organ that sits right underneath that. And it's much bigger than we first kind of imagine when we think of it as that kind of little pea shape at the top of the vulva. But actually, it goes deeper. It's got a glands that runs behind it and also extends either side of the labia.

So it's kind of more of a wishbone shape rather than a pea. And the function of it, it's purely for pleasure. It doesn't have any exact function kind of in reproduction, which is probably why there's not been so much attention to it, because especially research that was done in the past, maybe more constructed by male scientists, was kind of focused on function. And, for example, the uterus in reproduction and the bladder and its role in excretion. But because it doesn't have those kind of functions, maybe it hasn't had so much attention before. But it is so important, as we understand it, for sexual function. Yes. I mean, there's a message here Rachel which I

thought you would like to hear in particular which talks about remembering memories from Jane who's written in to say I remember a biology textbook in the 70s I was puzzled to see the clitoris included in a diagram of the reproductive system of the mouse but not of the human female I mean you know some of the best stories if I can call best, of how the clitoris has been ignored or maligned in history, don't you? Indeed, yes. I think there are a lot of ridiculous moments, including 16th century anatomists fighting over who discovered the clitoris and who got to name it. Meanwhile, all the women in the background just shook their heads. But maybe one relevant detail here is that Hippocrates, the Greek doctor, was one of the first to kind of name the genitals of men and women, and he called them the shame parts in

Greek. And it became a trend where every time an anatomist claimed to have discovered the clitoris, they would name it the part that you should be ashamed of in whatever language they were working in. So, mon bret en tout. Oh, yes. So, there's been just like a theme of shame throughout, I would say. And then there's been a trend of kind of the clitoris being lost and found in anatomical textbooks, like this woman was mentioning. It'll end up getting erased, I think, partially because it's considered not to have a role in reproduction. It's not important to the organs that are being

shown, the reproductive organs, and it kind of falls through the cracks. Yeah, I mean, you could make numerous jokes there about it being lost and found in real life, as well as in textbooks, but some people talking about they would rather there was a bit more knowledge out there by everybody. But I also thought just to get your take on this, Rachel, there's been a number of occasions where the clitoris has been called the female penis. I mean, it's never reversed around, is it, that men's parts are referred to as, I don't know, as something that's on our bodies, on women's bodies. But tell us about that.

That's a great point. But I think that what Brooke was talking about, about the anatomy of the clitoris, is really important to recognize. It's not that the penis should be the central reference point. It's that we all have a shared body plan in the womb and it kind of gets embroidered upon from there. It's not that the female is the default as many anatomical textbooks say. So I think that's important for the clitoris because there is a glands and that is equivalent to the head of the penis. So that just allows you to think how much else of the penis there is. And there is a shaft in the clitoris that goes back into the body. And then there are the two arms that kind of swoop against

the pubic bones. And there are two kind of teardrop shaped bulbs that hug the vagina. And I kind of see it as like a penguin spaceship shape and the beak, the beak would be the shaft and the glands. So it gives you an idea of how extensive it is. And also that it's all erectile tissue. So it is all about pleasure, orgasm, sensitivity, as this new study really underscores. Never thought I'd hear that description, but I'm going to remember that. Thank you for that, Rachel. That's a real gift you've just given to us all. I'm here to help. You are. Brooke, just a final word to you, if I can. There's a message here, which I thought you'd also like, which says, in the 70s, Jackie magazine decided

to run a piece on masturbation. It was completely eye opening for me as a teenager as it was scientific and non-judgmental in tone. I then went through five years of medical school in London without the clitoris being mentioned once. Can you relate? Yes, I probably would agree that we don't learn a great deal about the clitoris during medical training. And again, I think it comes back to this focus on anatomy, on function, on the kind of big organs and their involvement. And especially in medical school, we learn a lot about pathology. So when things, you know, what could be wrong with an organ, but you don't really learn about, you know, in its normal state, what is its function, how can it be stimulated

and all those kind of different aspects of it. So we did learn about it in a purely anatomical sense on a diagram and maybe learning, you know, the blood supply and the nerve supply. We didn't get much or any training really when it comes to sexual function psychosexual kind of information about that and I think that reflects back to what we were saying before about traditionally why there wasn't such a focus on it and I think yeah it's definitely a big gap that's missed and I think it gets missed a lot now in medical consultations when you're asking people for example seeing somebody who's been through the menopause and maybe comes to see you about hot flushes,

but doesn't feel comfortable to talk about their vaginal dryness and the way that their menopause is impacting on their sexual function. And I think because as doctors often at the training that we maybe got in medical school didn't really focus on these, we don't necessarily ask those kind of questions. Well, we have today a little bit and uh it will hopefully keep those conversations going dr brooke vander molen rachel egros thank you to you both there's a message here i learned about the clitoris from cosmopolitan magazine during my first term at manchester university another one here i was at boarding school there was no sex education at all luckily my mother had told me the basics and about periods a girl arrived in fifth form and revealed all she'd known since she was seven and enlightened us i'm still in contact

with her aged 61 reads that message and so they continue thank you for them and i have to say if we're talking about learning let's go to a conversation we sort of started yesterday and go back to some of your messages from them because yesterday you may have heard me discussing the new Matilda the musical film with Andrea Rysborough who plays Matilda's mother Mrs Wormwood absolutely brilliantly I have to say do catch up on that conversation on BBC sounds if you missed it was pure joy we talked about everything from packing your own tea bags to her failing to dance with Beyonce when Beyonce asked her to dance. She just couldn't when asked.

And of course, we spoke about Matilda. And many of you were in touch to share your experiences of being the Matilda of the class. This message from Rosie in particular caught my attention, which reads, I was a girly swot, quote, at school in the late 80s, early 90s. I was teased by pupils, even teachers, for doing well in exams.

So I started deliberately to get a few even teachers, for doing well in exams. So I started deliberately to get a few questions wrong, so not to stand out. It was only at university I felt finally able to love learning. I think and I hope things have changed for my daughters. There are so many more and diverse women role models for them now. Well, let's talk to the author and podcaster, Daisy Buchanan, and the QI elf and writer from The Quiz Show, Anne Miller. A warm welcome to you both. Anne, do you relate to what Rosie was describing? Yeah, I mean, it's a real flashback right to the 90s, isn't it? No one's called me a girly swat for quite a few years.

And I definitely, my job, I mean, it's pretty much the swattiest job you can do. It came back into common parlance briefly, didn't it, when Boris Johnson was revealed had used it pejoratively to David Cameron. But carry on. Yeah, but I think it's just, I mean I mean gosh I hope things are different for children at school now but really when I was at school yeah you want that that passion for knowledge it should be celebrated and as an adult I find that it very much is and you can find people who love the same things as you as a child you're really into owls or facts and no one else in your classes you

kind of you do start to hide that part of you even though you love it and it's just sort of it's so wonderful when you can finally find someone like when I first met Daisy and we had the same love of books and it just it just sparked something you're like oh yes we get this we can talk about this this is wonderful did you ever try and get things pretend to get things wrong and I saw that in some of the messages I definitely there were some points where you definitely felt almost embarrassed at knowing the answer again so you wouldn't put your hand up quite so much but also I was always really curious. I remember one teacher saying to me oh Anne's always got a question and I felt so embarrassed and I was about 10 and I still can feel that day now whereas now I work for QI our

whole job is asking questions it's very much encouraged no one's ever told me off for that as an adult. I think you've had the last laugh in that respect of what to do with a love of knowledge. Daisy, good morning to you. Hello. It's interesting because there's another element of this, which I wanted to get your take on and the idea of if you do well and it's self-fulfilling, you know, then you want to do better and you keep going. There's an element with girls of them that comes out, which is like the part of people pleasing and that continuing throughout your life. What's the impact been for you from how your school days were and the lessons you were taught about doing well and that continuing? it's interesting that you know for the girls and women I definitely found that being kind of like nice and polite and good was sort of tied up with academic excellence and you know I think I've written a lot about um ambition and you know my novel Careering it's really about what happens

when you feel like that's taken to its logical conclusion you leave school and you've been in the system where doing really well is sort of rewarded and I found and I don't know if Anne relates this where there's a lot of expectation as well like you are teased for putting your hand up you're teased for getting the mark you're teased for knowing but also that's kind of all the status you have and if you're not doing that then then you've got nothing and then you know I found I sort of entering the world of work and I'm like oh well if I you know stay late and say yes and really, really try hard and make such a big, big effort, like I'll get a gold star and everyone will like me. And it's like, no, actually, you're a very exploitable source of cheap labor and your employers are delighted and they're not going to reward you for that or, you know, for sort of your passion.

And, you know, I think now I see every job is the appetite. It's like you've got to be passionate you've got to be committed and it's as if this you know are that you know that curiosity and that excitement and that you know urge to learn you know for women and as we've just you know seen the previous item it's it leads to really powerful and important things like you know important late discoveries about the clitoris but But it can also so easily be like, oh, well, you're enthusiastic and you're good. And, you know, it's very important that you are liked to succeed. So go off over here and do this. It's a real, I think, poor channeling of our energies.

Yeah. Has it not been a good thing in your life, do you think, having had that start, being that sort of character who did well at school and then wanting to continue with that? It took me a really long time to learn to rebel and learn to paddle my own canoe. And in terms of, you know, what makes me passionate and excited, I found that the enthusiasm and the curiosity, that's been, you know, what I should follow. I host a podcast called You're Booked, which, you know, what I should follow. I host a podcast called You're Booked, which, you know, no one asked me to make a podcast. But it brings me such joy to speak to these people who I think are also the, you know, the girly swaps and the swaps

at school to talk about their passion for sort of books and reading. And it's those experiences that are so life-affirming and you know I think that rebelling isn't necessarily about being loud I think that we you know former girly girly swats can rebel by just you know sort of quietly and enthusiastically and passionately sort of following our own path instead of trying to align our swottiness to other people's plans if that makes sense have you yes it does i mean and a lot of people will relate as well they're thinking about matilda and they're thinking about this sort of characters i know books are very important as you say daisy in your life as a writer but also a lover of them but do you do you relate to any of that and yeah and i think one other thing is when you're at school your friendship

group is so limited by who happens to live near the house your parents live in which actually if you're going to find you know a soulmate or a kindred spirit that's really not the first place you would look so as an adult you find all these little hubs where you find the people like you which is why when Twitter was at its best Book Twitter was this amazing place where all the writers were at home on Twitter so you could find all those little kids who'd be in the library at break time were suddenly all in the same digital space and it was amazing and I think that yeah as a child sometimes you find there Matilda obviously is an amazing example but also you have your like Nancy Drew and Shirley Patrova Fossil all these really bright smart girls and you can find them

in books and I think there's something quite nice as an adult about having such a familiarity with books because you sort of realise that if you don't know something, you can go and find it. And having that knowledge to go through the books, the sort of the Matilda world that you can get access to it, I think is a really, that's really valuable as an adult to be comfortable that you can find the and be good at school in that sense, you know, as a girl? Do you think there's still this whole rebellious thing and how to manage that and how girls do it compared to boys? I wouldn't believe that a shift is happening. I'm a huge fan of QI, the show that Anne works on. And every time I see it, I look at these guests and I think, wow, this is the geeks inheriting the earth enthusiasm I think has become much much cooler I was a teenager sort of in the 90s early aughts and that felt like a very ironic detached sort of bitchy time where showing any sort of passion wasn't the done thing and I think that you know now there are so many places for us to kind of you know make our own work and show that

passion and I think that's a really positive thing I think especially when the world can be quite you know relentlessly sort of negative and difficult but it's you know progress is happening and you know joy is happening because people because of excitement and enthusiasm so I don't know what it's like to be young and at school now, but I really hope that curiosity and passion and, you know, quote unquote, sort of sortiness is being rewarded and encouraged in a way that perhaps it wasn't when Anne and I were at school. Anne, have you inherited the earth? Oh, I've definitely inherited the fact loving part of the earth. I've definitely found that the girly swat haven that is QI. But I think one thing that I love about QI, which I think,

I mean, we haven't discussed our school days, which we've been talking about the joy of cement and concrete and blackbirds day to day. But I think what's so lovely about QI is that it's about knowledge, but really it's about curiosity. So if you come into our office, what you will just hear is people say, you'll never guess what I've just read about lizards. And it's finding out new things.

You could go in and say, you'll never guess what I've just learned about the clitoris from a out new things. You could go in and say you'll never guess what I've just learned about the clitoris from Woman's Hour. I mean 100%. Off you go. Anne Miller thank you very much. Daisy Buchanan thank you to you and biggest thanks of all to you our listeners this morning. Thank you so much for your company as always. Woman's Hour's back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Helena Merriman, creator of the podcast Tunnel29, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast for BBC Radio 4 called Room 5, Stories of Real-Life Medical Mysteries. We're sparked by my own shock diagnosis a few years back

in Room 5 at my local doctor's surgery. In Series 1, we had stories about psychosis, endometriosis, trauma, and my story about hearing loss. After the series came out, hundreds of you wrote to me with your stories. Some of you had been searching for answers for years, a whole string of tests and appointments. For some, it was the shock you never saw coming. But there's one thing these moments share. They're never the end of the story, but the start of a new one. I had no warning of the massive bombshell that was about to be dropped to me.

And I said, I am broken and I need you to work out what it is. And they looked like a choir of singing vaginas. Suddenly, all these bells just start going, ring, ring, ring, ring. I'm on this sofa looking straight ahead of me, and I see another shadowy figure. Sort of every fibre in your body zings into action again. There's just that one word.

Live. Room 5 with me, Helena Merriman. Back for Series 2 with eight more medical mysteries. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. There's somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.