Woman's Hour - Lady Lavinia Nourse; Caitlin Moran; Female truckers; Comedian Gina Yashere; Football and Atomic Kitten

Episode Date: July 10, 2021

Lady Lavinia Nourse, the 77-year-old widow of the High Court judge Sir Martin Nourse was cleared of all 17 counts of historical child sex abuse involving a boy under the age of 12. In her first broadcast interview, she tells Emma about the case and why she's calling for those accused of child abuse to be granted anonymity until charged.There is a huge shortage of road hauliers in the UK. But of the half a million licensed lorry drivers, only 5% are women. Why is this? And what would encourage more women to get behind the wheel? Driver Suzy Mackenzie and Kate Lester, the Chief Executive of Diamond Logistics discuss.The Prime Minister has confirmed the end of Britain's mission in Afghanistan. It follows the decision by US President Joe Biden to withdraw US troops by September 11th. But what lies ahead for women? And what's changed for them since foreign troops entered the country in late 2001? Krupa speaks to Mahjooba Nowrouzi from the BBC Afghan Service and Dr Weeda Mehran, a lecturer in Terrorism and Conflict at the University of Exeter.Caitlin Moran is a journalist and columnist at The Times. Her first book ‘How to Be a Woman” was hugely successful. She discusses the sequel ‘More than a Woman’, giving her take on middle age, parenting, and why everyone needs a 'Janet' in their life. British comic Gina Yashere has made it big on both sides of the Atlantic. A veteran of the UK comedy scene, she's also had huge success in the US. Now she's just released, a memoir called 'Cack-Handed' in which she writes about growing up as a child of Nigerian immigrants in London.And footie with Emma Hayes, Chelsea Women Manager, who was part of the TV commentary team at the England v Denmark semi final. And Natasha Hamilton and Liz McClarnon, two members of Atomic Kitten sing us some of their song, Whole Again, reversioned for the England team.Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, on Weekend Woman's Hour today. In her first broadcast interview, we hear from Lady Lavinia Norse, who just over a month ago was acquitted of 17 counts of historical child sex abuse. She's calling for those accused to be anonymous until charged. We'll be hearing the latest from Afghanistan and life for women there as foreign troops leave the country. The comedian Gina Yashiri speaks to us about growing up

in her Nigerian family in 1970s London. And as we look forward to Sunday and that mega football final, we speak to Emma Hayes, the Chelsea women's football manager who was part of the commentary team during Wednesday's match. I couldn't control myself with righty in the gantry, but that was hands down the best moment I've ever had as a fan. I'm hungover from adrenaline. And Atomic Kittens sing their song Hole Again

as it becomes the latest football anthem. If you want to get in touch with us on any of the stories you hear, please do. We're on social media at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website. But first, the maintenance shag, Botox and why you always need a middle-aged Scottish woman called Janet to sort things out. Ten years after her best-selling book, How to Be a Woman, The Times columnist, Kathleen Moran, is back with the sequel, More Than a Woman. Emma asked her about this Janet theory. If you're ringing customer services and you'll be being passed around between David and Raj,

and they won't know what to do, and you'll be on the phone for an hour. And what you're always waiting for is the moment when David and Raj kick it upstairs to a middle-aged woman usually scottish called janet who is the capable one who can just listen to your problem go oh hen i see you're having problems here let me sort that out straight away presses three buttons and it's all solved she's brisk she's crisp and she's getting stuff done and that is the code of the middle-aged woman because middle age is a special time it's where you start realizing that you're running out of time you've learned uh not to suffer fools gladly um as you've lost skin elasticity you've also lost the amount of figs that you give about other people's opinions and you really are just cracking on with stuff and those are the human dynamos that i'm trying to celebrate um in this

book now i've gone from talking about the teenage years and uh and your 20s to middle age which i think is an under-chronicled episode in women's lives. And most dramatic as well. I think we think that middle-aged women are boring. And the middle-aged years, I found, are the ones that are the most full of drama and incident. It's real life and death stuff. You know, you're raising children.

You're looking after ageing parents. Your friends are divorcing. And you, usually as a middle-aged woman, if you're halfway sorted, are the one that is holding the threads of society together with your bare hands for no pay or credit at all, while still being a human being. And that is what this book is about. Well, no, because that's the serious point. You know, us all becoming Janets or trying to become Janets and holding things together, the generations, friends. It's a huge responsibility.

Yeah. So earlier, the Woman's air account tweeted uh katlin moran is coming on to talk about the joys of middle age and there are about 30 women just going it's not a joyful time i hope you're going to talk about how difficult it is and how we're just doing everything and no one credits us and they all think we're frumpy and boring yes don't worry i have not secretly found out a way to make being perimenopausal with teenage children and aging parents good like kind of like i've shared all the problems it's very much a howl but also with all the tips and advice that I've learned all the way through. Well what I also love is you you come back to

yourself and you imagine a conversation at the beginning of the book the present you visits the 30 year old you to tell you what's on the cards for the next few years and actually you've got you've had you've got a few things wrong along the way. One of the ones just right at the top of the list was around Botox, but you've again changed your mind since then. Is that right? I'm flip-flopping all over the place. Yes. So I wanted to write about the fact that I'd had Botox because there's a lot of Botox shame around. And we see the most famous women who are naturally beautiful and youthful, who claim that it's just a bit of soap and water and a slick of Vaseline on the lips. They're all lying. So I was like, I'll take one for the team. I will, you know, talk

about it and you know, why we get it done. I enjoyed it. I'd gone through a previously the five years before I've been quite traumatic. My daughter had been very ill. I looked very sad all the time. And I'd learned that none of these serums and creams work. If you want something that works, it is incredibly effective. It does work. It's, you know, if it's, you know, if you've got someone who's good, and they can sort of do it aesthetically pleasingly absolutely go for it but i watched the friends reunion and uh there seemed to be a definite divide between the people who would age naturally and the people who had old ladies eyes in the face of a child and it gives this opinion it gives this sort of uh image of these beings of immortal

child gods um who can never die and have seen have seen millennials pass by and everyone they love perish. And yet they are still alive. These old traumatized women's eyes in a young child's face, which is a strong look, but not necessarily the one I'm going for. Yes. It was sort of Phoebe versus Monica and Rachel to put it like that. If people have or have not seen it, but there was, there was one of the debates around that, which was a kind of a bigger thing, which people felt perhaps that even Katlin Moran had Botox, the ultimate feminist who didn't think you needed to put your value by your looks.

Yeah, it's just the thing is that it's sort of like we have to remember that feminism isn't a set of rules. Like I think when I was younger, I thought there was like a feminist Bible and some feminist rules and a feminist God and maybe a feminist citizen that one day I get to. And feminism is just a set of tools for understanding why it's difficult to be a woman and how you can improve things and how you can talk about it. And I disliked the fact that it's OK as a feminist to whiten your teeth or dye your hair or wear makeup. But suddenly Botox is the one thing that you're not allowed to do. Like, you know, it's been around for years. It works. I just wanted people to be honest about it. To me, the feminist issue seemed to be

that so many women feel that they can't admit they take it. So I was like, I can do that. My job is to always see if there's something shameful or secret or taboo and just run towards it going, let's talk about this. Let's be brutally honest and amusing. Well, you have, and you just mentioned it there, talked about one of your daughters being very ill,

which is chronicled in the book, had an eating disorder, a lot of honesty there. And I wondered if you could talk about that now with us and any advice that you had for parents who are going through a similar time? Yes, well, gosh, well, first of all, I have to say that she's thankfully completely recovered. And secondly, that she wanted me to write about it. She pointed out quite rightly that for her generation, the teenage generation, there isn't this stigma around mental illness that we had when we were growing up in my generation they will talk about it it's on social media and as she pointed out me and my friends can talk about this but you are our parents and you still have

this shame around it you still have this stigma you still don't understand it and as anyone who's had a child with mental illness will know even even if you have finally managed to get to the top of that waiting list which is often a year and a half two years you're only seeing someone for maybe an hour or two hours a week the rest of the time you are the carer um for that ill child and you have to become a mental health professional the big problem that I had was that I was scared of her sadness I had been raised in a family where we just weren't sad. If you had emotions, you just ignored them and cracked on and made a joke. So when she first started becoming sad and anxious, I tried to jolly her out of it.

I tried to reason her out of it. I got angry. I tried being sad. I tried everything. And what you need to do is to say what you see. You need to go, I can see you are sad. I'm so sorry about that. You know, I'm not scared. I'm not freaked out. I'm going to stay what you see you need to go I can see you are sad I'm so sorry about that you know I'm not scared I'm not freaked out I'm going to stay with you until you are better um and that

took three years to learn I couldn't find the advice anywhere for actually being a parent and dealing with a with an ill child which is why I wanted to write about it and when we um printed an extract of it in the times it had the biggest response of anything that I've ever written and I once went to a gay club with Lady Gaga so um so this was this was immense and even now I'm doing sort of two or three zooms a week with people who've got in contact who are really struggling with it because the help is not there um I'm working with a lot of charities at the moment and we're trying to come up with proposals for the way that we change the mental health system in this country because you need to empower the parents to help children that is how you'll see the quickest results and so one of

the things I've tried to do all the way through is be very honest about the mistakes that I've made and go, I did this, it turned out really badly. Maybe don't do this. But well, you do, you do make us laugh. You really do as well. And that is important. And I think we should do a good job of advertising the good bits of being a woman, and also the very practical bits as well. Let's start with the maintenance shag, because you did that on a Friday morning still? Yes. Yeah. 8.30. So this is an invention of my friend Sally Hughes, the journalist and broadcaster. She told all of her social group about the maintenance shag. We were like, yes. So people have misunderstood sometimes what it is. It's not lying back and thinking of England when your husband wants to have sex.

It's when a couple who love each other but are very busy, you just don't spontaneously still have sex after 25 years. There's the dog, there's the kids, the doorbell's ringing. So you have to schedule it. And for the first five minutes, it'll be really awkward. And then you get into it.

And at the end of it, you're like, oh God, this is really relaxing and it's not costing me any money. Why don't we do this more often? And then often you'll have like a bog-off rollover shag spontaneously the next day because you've remembered once again how great it is. But hang on, sorry, Kat and Ron,

you know I like to hold people to account. You just said the first five minutes might be a bit awkward. I think they are a bit awkward for your other half Pete because you're getting in there to squeeze a blackhead out of his nose before you start because as you say, you're grooming him and mating with him.

Yeah, one of the many reasons i was attracted to him is every so often he will grow a beautiful blackhead on his nose and i can crop it and i get great satisfaction in removing it the other big obstacle for our sex life which i suspect many others may relate to is since we've got a dog the dog likes to be on the bed and the dog is saddened by sex and often in a relationship there will be a disparity between who is most sympathetic towards the dog I'm very much like I would like to have some sex I don't care if the dog is sad my husband would be like I think she's traumatized why don't we explain to her what's happening I'm like no

throw her out and shut the door um so these are the these the obstacles for sex in middle age black heads and dogs that was Kathleen Moran in conversation with Emma Barnett and listening to that was Efaz who tweeted us to say laughing at this so much and definitely going to adopt the maintenance shack. There is currently a huge shortage of lorry drivers in the UK. According to the Road Haulage Association up to 100,000 more road haulers are needed to transport the food, medicines and equipment vital to the UK economy. It's estimated that 95% of all the products we consume are at some point moved around by road freight. And as we get to grips with the logistics of Brexit and coronavirus restrictions, more people are urgently needed. But of the half a million licensed lorry drivers, fewer than 5% are women. Why is this? And what would encourage more women to get behind the wheel?

Susan McKenzie is a lorry driver who transports horses around Europe. And Kate Lester is the chief executive of Diamond Logistics, a firm that specialises in fulfilment and delivery. And she's also driven lorries up to seven tonnes. On a practical level, what does someone need to drive these HGVs? Kate first. I think you need to have a very no-nonsense attitude. You've obviously got to have the skill set, and you've got to be able to probably not have the sort of engagements that most of us as women have in terms of working hours and our requirements as being that central part that Caitlin was talking about in terms of being carers in the middle of society because the hours can be quite onerous so it's either a young

woman's job or a you know post-children woman's job because I don't think it's very flexible for that sort of younger generation. And the culture of it there are stories about that not being where it should be perhaps or could be off-putting to women. I think that's a grotesque understatement. You tell us. To say it's pale male and stale is an underestimation. I'd say borderline misogynist. And that's the whole of the logistics industry.

And when you think about the population of women within logistics, it's only about 26% out of our whole employment workforce. And with drivers, I believe it's sub 3%. It's that low. And you guys know from all the e-commerce stuff that you've had delivered to your homes, etc, etc. Does anyone open the door to a female driver? I don't think they do. And so I think there's a real cultural change that needs to shift there. And do you think that that is happening though? I mean, what would make that happen? Because is it having more women or are there changes afoot? Well, it's really interesting, actually, even though I've been leading my business for the last 30 years, it was only 10 years ago that we looked at it within our own organisation and actually looked at our employment statistics within our business, and they were very low too. So we had to do a very purposeful transformation program in order to make our business more engaging for a female workforce so we've started it here and now we've got 60% of our workforce is female we've got absolute gender parity in terms of pay but in terms of our drivers it's again a project that we're yet to be very successful in so I think

there's a PR exercise that needs to happen I think we've got to look at working hours, we've got to look at access to training, and the cost of becoming a lorry driver, because that can be very expensive. Well, also just practicalities, you know, I don't know how safe I would feel having to sleep in my truck overnight, in a lorry park in the middle of you know, sort of up a whoop whoop, you know, I think there's security issues and even stuff like bathroom facilities, toilet facilities, et cetera, et cetera. I think it can be quite challenging. Yeah, I imagine it can be, but Susie will know firsthand, Susie McKenzie.

What led you into this line of work? The horses really is what got me into the job. So I transport horses. I worked with horses previously to driving and then did my HGV and then got into the transportating of horses. Where are you at the moment? I'm near Osnabrück in Germany, heading to Hanover to collect my first horse. There you go, busy. Thank you for taking the time. What sort of vehicle are you in? Can you describe it to us? Yeah, it's 26 tonne rigid,

so it takes 10 horses or 11 ponies. That's quite serious. Do you find a lot of women where you work or in the in the line of work? Do you see women around? Or are you just the only one? Within the line of horse transport, there would be with in the company I work for, there's actually more women than men. But I think that's because of the horses that get the women into the job, you know? Oh, that's interesting. And so in terms of the culture that you see, is it quite different to what we were just hearing? I think so. A lot of the time I'll be parked in private yards overnight. And so then I've got facilities on a private.

And so I'm lucky in that respect. And how long have you been doing this? Since I was 23. So seven years now. Now 30. OK. you been doing this since I was 23 so seven years now now 30 okay and in terms of what you could say to women who perhaps thinking of doing this and wouldn't think it was for them what would you say ah there's no reason why you know a woman can't do this job there's it's no two days are the same

you get to meet new people and especially in my line of work see new places and it's it's good fun really did you enjoy the driving do you what what's your what do you do when you drive are you listening to something are you dancing away what's your what's your routine yeah it depends on the day you know singing singing and dancing along or listening to a podcast or on the radio or I you know on an app because because I'm not in the UK every day so So now we've got all the apps you can download so you can stream the stuff from the UK. So it's great. When you meet men in your line of work, do they say anything to you about you being a rare woman that they see on the job?

Has there been a change over the years you've been doing it? Not so much a change. Some people will say, oh, you know, know girl didn't expect it to be a girl but a lot of the time we don't hear that too often but I think again because because of the horses people expect it more because even as a private person if you've got your own horses and you're fortunate enough to have your own lorry you'll be driving it yourself so you do see women driving horses more than just your average freight. Well, it's fascinating to get an insight into that.

Do you sleep in your vehicle? Yes, I sleep in the cab. And do you feel safe in that respect? Because that was something that Kate was just questioning. It depends where you're parked. So the majority of the time I am parked in a private yard because we don't keep the horses on overnight. They've got to

go into the stables so sometimes you're in services if you haven't got a horse on board majority of the time I don't feel a problem you know I'll shut the curtains as soon as I get there but I don't feel unsafe. Do you think more women should do this line of work there are a lot of vacancies we've come through a very strange 15 months or so people are going to have lost jobs definitely there's no reason why they shouldn't and it's actually the job security is is great because we're essential workers case that's a that's a very strong message isn't it you know the the job security is there i suppose it's just while suzy's had a very specific experience with horses what you've also described could be very off-putting in that blokey sense that you were

describing yeah for sure but i think in terms of stability of income, we've really got to look at logistics. Logistics is like the third biggest industry in the UK. Obviously, we've seen growth over the last 18 months where a lot of other industries have been very challenged. And women are very well set to be very successful within logistics. And certainly in terms of the skill set that's required, there's nothing, you know, we've got enough mechanization and enough automation and enough tools to facilitate some of the more physical parts of the job but in terms of a skill set there's certainly no reason why not. I do think there's an image problem in terms of classic logistics rather than you know the horse transport I've got a lot of girlfriends who've got horses and they all drive horse boxes very confidently

but that sort of has a little bit of that vocational kind of pitch. Whereas in the traditional logistics side of things, it's very much a traditional sort of classic sort of industry. So there's probably a little bit of rebranding that needs to happen, but there is no reason why women cannot be extraordinarily successful in this sector. And that was Kate Lester and Susie McKenzie. Emma got in touch to say, I recently started working as a breakfast and lunch delivery driver for a small company after leaving a managerial job in an NHS trust. Although nervous at first, I find I love driving the van, perched on the lumber support cushions I had to buy so I can comfortably reach the pedals,

I'm five foot three, and the simple satisfaction of selling food to hungry people. No office politics attached. On to a story that's been developing all this week. The Prime Minister confirmed that most British forces have now left Afghanistan. It follows the decision by US President Joe Biden to withdraw US troops, saying that the Afghans are going to have to decide their own future. Taliban fighters have recently seized dozens of districts in Afghanistan as they step up attacks during the final withdrawals. So what does lie ahead for women? Could the return of Taliban rule risk any progress that's been made? Dr Wida Mehran is a lecturer in

terrorism and conflict at the University of Exeter and Majuba Noorozi is from the BBC's Afghan service. Majuba first. The conflict is going on. There is no signs of ceasefire at all and Taliban are making advances very fast and they were taking districts after districts and that the national army is only in control of like major cities so it's growing fear there and everybody's scared for their lives and weida can you be a bit more specific in just telling us what is happening in these territories that majuba has highlighted there because it's obviously not just Kabul where we are seeing tensions rising. It is these rural areas, the border areas as well. What is happening actually in these territories

when they fall under control of the Taliban is essentially they are being ruled the same manner that the Taliban used to rule in Afghanistan when they were in power before 2001. There are obviously no schools for – no schools are open for girls, and women have to stay at home. They implement their interpretation of Sharia law by punishing anything that – any conduct that they see unfit in public.

Most recently what they – what happened in one of these districts was they-the Taliban punished publicly a woman who was accused of having a phone conversation with a man. And this is exactly what used to happen in Afghanistan when the Taliban were in power. And as Ms. Shukria Barakzai mentioned, they haven't changed. The Taliban have not changed at all, despite what they have been – actually, the Taliban hasn't even changed their narrative. So even – they haven't even talked about what they will do in terms of allowing women, women's rights and democracy and democratic values in the country, their narrative hasn't changed either. And there's no absolute,

when these districts fall to the Taliban, there is no governance. To both of you, under the Taliban rule in the 1990s, women were not allowed to work, as you've highlighted, Wida. They were discouraged from going to school. Since then, what sort of opportunities have opened up for them? And is there a rural-urban divide? Well, women made a significant breakthrough over the last 20 years. I mean, there is no doubt about that, terms of like their socioeconomic development, as well as getting jobs. And I mean, in general, and more than like three point six million girls now go to school and they have real presence in in national forces, in police. And they work as judges, journalists, and they are involved in different type of sports.

And they have, as I said, real presence and they make up 25% of the parliament. And now the fear is that all these hard fought women's rights will be lost. And that's the major concern among the Afghan women right now. Women are in general and other ethnic minorities in the country are extremely worried about what will happen when the Taliban take over. One of the biggest achievements for Afghanistan, we have a female athlete right now joining Tokyo Olympics. And the first thing that she is worried about in her interviews is what will happen to the future,

my future and future of women who are in sports. Yesterday, we heard that the Biden administration is considering offering a visa path for vulnerable Afghans, including women politicians, journalists and activists who may become targets of the Taliban. And how concerned are you, Ida, that people will leave? And what does it mean if they do? I am extremely concerned that people do leave Afghanistan and that can create another brain drain situation for the country and really undermine the social fabric and public institutions in the country. Remember that despite all the achievements

that we have made in Afghanistan in terms of education in general, the country remains, the rates of literacy in the country remain very low. So who leaves the country right now are the educated, the skilled youth who are actually the backbone of the whole state institutions in the country. And when they leave this in itself, even if the country does not fall to the Taliban, this will have a very negative impact on the situation in the country

and would actually undermine state building in the country, would undermine development in the country, economic development. It's a loss of social capitals, human capital to this wall that will continue. And this generated, it took at least 20 years to of the most recent era 20 years of having this having youth who are educated and skilled who can actually contribute in the country and losing them while in the backdrop of a war going on and security situation being bad is a very big blow to the country. It's been heartbreaking, I understand. News at the weekend that women have been taking

up arms, marching at this big demonstration in central Gore province, chanting anti-Taliban slogans. How much can we read into this, Majuba? What have your audience been telling you? Do they feel let down? Massively. I mean, the thing is that they say that the people that I'm in touch with, they say that they have been let down. They feel let down massively. They think it was irresponsible pullout. And they think that the Taliban haven't changed as both you were, I mean, Shukria Barakzai mentioned and Wida. I mean, they haven't changed their narrative, nothing has changed. And that the Taliban women were barred from education and or work or required fully cover their whole body and and could not leave their house without a male relative. So and now

they are saying that there is no guarantee. So who is going to guarantee it for us that nothing is going to change? And they firmly believe that once the Taliban are in power, I mean, the history will repeat itself. Our guest there, Dr. Wida Mehran from the University of Exeter and Majuba Nawrozi from the BBC's Afghan service. Still to come on the programme with me, Krupa Bhatti, a blast especially for Woman's Hour of Atomic Kitten's football anthem, Hole Again. And remember, you could enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day.

And if you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week, just subscribe to the daily podcast for free via the Woman's Hour website. Lady Lavinia Norse was grieving for her husband, the senior judge Sir Martin Norse, when she was accused and then subsequently charged with 17 counts of sex abuse involving a boy under the age of 12. Just over a month ago, aged 77, she was cleared of all charges after a three and a half year ordeal and a two week trial that she says has left her life in pieces. Her lawyer says the Crown Prosecution Service did not assess the evidence rigorously enough. Lavinia Norse's case came in the wake of the Jimmy Savile scandal. The fallout saw a rise in the number of high-profile figures being falsely accused, named but without any charges brought. On Wednesday, in her first broadcast interview,

Lavinia talked to Emma about what it was like to face her accuser in court and the impact the allegations have had on her life. She wanted to speak to Woman's Hour to make sure this never happens to anyone else. She started with how the ordeal began. The accuser, if that's the word I suppose I have to use, took me into a public park, Lincoln's Inn Fields, and simply blurted out the news

that I had abused him as a young child. So you met up with him and he was known to you? Oh, yes. And when he said that and with the accusations that he put to you, what was your response? For starters, I didn't even know what abuse between a woman and a young child boy could be because I'm of an age one doesn't understand these things.

Not entirely stupid, but I mean, I couldn't understand what he was talking about. I mean, it was something so alien to me. I was so shocked. You can't imagine what that's like to suddenly be told something so devastatingly awful. Did he tell you he was going to go to the police? No. He said that he thought there was a way forward. There was constant referral to,

oh, well, there will be a way forward. Well, I don't know how there can be a way forward after such devastating accusations. And of course it's difficult for me talking to you because I know who accused me. But of course I can't say who accused me. And this makes conversations with people like you and anybody else extremely difficult

because I can't be very honest and frank. And that's what makes it so appalling and makes things like this so difficult because I can't be truly honest about it. I understand that this is incredibly difficult for you to talk about, but I know that you want to talk about it. I do want to talk because I want to help others. He did go to the police.

He did, nearly a year later. I was interviewed, I think it was five hours, I can't remember exactly how long it was, and it was the most awful, awful experience. And what was made even worse was that the conversations that I had with the accuser had all been taped. So he had been recording you? Yes. After that questioning which will have centred around what you were being accused of, child sex abuse, were you told other details of what you were being accused of, child sex abuse. Were you told other details of what you were being accused of? Oh, there were 17 charges, yes, which I don't wish to go into.

But you were hearing, I suppose, this detail for the first time. For the first time, yeah. I mean, it was news to me. Up until that point, I knew nothing. I had no idea, except it just came under the general heading of sex abuse. But they seemed to come up with 17 different aspects of things that I might have done. Did you expect it to go to court? No.

And then what was the process like after that? Because it did go to court. Yeah, it was just... I can't really talk. You can imagine that because my husband was such a senior lawyer, the shame and just the terror of being in a court and looking at a judge in the sort of clothes that my husband used to wear and the whole panoply of the court. You can't imagine what that's like for someone who's lived in the law all her life. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I would ever find myself in

that position. Just to look at the Crown Prosecution papers just made me feel terrified. I mean, to see that in print, that wasn't almost enough to finish me, let alone the actual process. It was simply terrifying, absolutely terrifying. How long after your husband died were you charged? He died in November 17 and I think I was charged in, it must have been in the summer of 20, so it was a long time to live with it. The accuser was very happy to let it be known widely in London and in and around Newmarket, where I live, and freely admitting that this is what I had done. And so a lot of my friends had been told of what I had done

long before I was charged. When I was interviewed by the police, they said, we've got a list of the people that have been told. I mean, intolerable on top of everything else i didn't know who was looking at me where i could turn for i didn't know who i could trust because i didn't know who knew what what had been said to anyone i just you know you just disappear into your house and and try to keep strong and stay there. But it's not easy.

Of course, talking about Sir Martin Norse, who was your husband for many years, a former High Court judge. So when you're talking about him, I'm just letting our listeners know. He was a former law justice of appeal. Yes. He was in the High Court of Shortwell. Yes. Why I'm also saying that is when you talk about your life and how you had seen the law it was i was up until that point

the whole of my life was in and around the law it was two weeks of the trial how can you describe going into that trial hell that's all i can say i i've never been so frightened lonely and utterly miserable i didn't i had my legal team but that was all and the press were out there every day photographing me and and harassing me and um it was terrifying and and of course knowing i suppose if it hadn't gone that way i could have gone to prison really frightening that people can tell lies um that actually can send an innocent person to prison. And that's what would have happened. You had to go through the court case with the complainant, with the person known to you alleging those things in front of you.

And he chose not to be behind a screen, which is normal. And so I had to face him face to face. What was that like? Well, I think, well, it was horrendous. He was as close to me as you are now. And to have to sit for the best part of a day and a half and listen to all the ghastly things that were said about me. The jury was out for a short time? I believe so.

The moment that they had to go out, I think those two and a half, three and a half hours were probably the worst of my life. I remember it was pouring with rain and I sat there looking out the window. I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep, I couldn't do anything. And I'd been like that for weeks and then they almost had to drag me back into the court

because I was so frightened, absolutely petrified of what was going to happen. Do you remember hearing that you were cleared? And, you know, I just, I just still didn't believe it. I mean, I had to go through 17 times not guilty, but after the first one, I just almost collapsed. In fact, I did collapse laterally. It took me days to believe it. Sometimes even now I can't quite believe it

because I know that may sound strange, but when you've lived with something for so long and the fear and the trauma of what might happen, it doesn't go overnight., it doesn't go overnight. It just doesn't go overnight. And I'm better now than I was two months ago, but even so, I'm still plagued with nightmares. And then people kept saying,

oh, well, you must be celebrating, but then you're not celebrating any. What's there to celebrate? There's nothing. I'm left with a shattered life, which I have to pick up and hold my head up. And... But what's been said, what's been written,

will live with me forever. And yet the person who has made these accusations walks free and can continue to say whatever he likes for the rest of his life. Do you know why he made these accusations? For reasons I can't disclose to you, it was very clear to the jury by certain recordings that had been made that I accused him of blackmailing me, and that's what it was, I think. Your friends, some of them, came and did character witnesses in court. That was reported on, for instance, Mary Archer.

She's been the most wonderful friend. Well, they all have. I'm going to come out of it stronger. I think I'll organise my life in a slightly different way. I'll make me much more wary of people. They've robbed me of four years of my life. And as you get older, four years is a lot to be taken away. But it's not too late. And I want to go and get a degree, which is something I would hope that I

will do. In what? In history. Okay. You also want to focus some of your energy, which is why we're talking today, on seeing if you can change the way that these sorts of cases are handled. What do you want to change? Well, I think there is a movement, quite well established movement, which involves Cliff Richards and Proctor and all these people who were never charged. But their cases, their names were all over the newspapers. Now, I think the first move would be to get the law changed on that front. Just to be clear to our listeners, we're talking about people being able to be anonymous until charged, which is what the likes of Cliff Richard with the rest of his campaigners are calling for. That would be stage one.

Because it wouldn't have changed your situation because you were charged. Desperately. I mean, we've got to start somewhere. Do you believe those who allege these crimes, the complainants, or who then, if people are found guilty, the victims, do you think they should be named? Yes. I don't see why he can get away with it now. Why can he Can he sally me big time? And yet, when the trial is over, still remain anonymity. But then, of course, that's the law. I think that needs to be changed as well. I just wondered, because since Jimmy Savile, the Me Too movement and other historic sexual abuse cases,

police investigations and CPS guidance have become more victim focused. Do you think the shift has gone too far? And do you think that's why your case ended up in court? I personally think in my particular case, I probably wouldn't have come to court if I hadn't had such a high profile husband. They were not going to let themselves come under the criticism of not going after a judge's wife because she was a judge's wife. What do you hope to achieve by coming on Woman's Hour today and talking to me and talking to our listeners? Just raising awareness of the question of anonymity.

Up to the point of charge, everyone remains anonymous. That in itself would be a step forward. I think it's less likely that in the immediate future you will get anonymity after being charged. But I would like to ask the question, why can the complainant then not be revealed after the case? Lady Lavinia Norse speaking exclusively to Woman's Hour. You can listen back to that full interview on BBC Sounds as well as the interview with her solicitor, Sandra Paul from Kingsley, Napoli. Regarding the case of Lady Lavinia Norse, a CPS spokesperson said, following an investigation by Cambridgeshire Constabulary, the CPS made the decision to charge following detailed consideration of the evidence and in accordance with the Code for Crown Prosecutors. The Crown Prosecution Service's

function is not to decide whether a person is guilty of a criminal offence, but to make fair, independent and objective assessments about whether it is appropriate to present charges for a jury to consider. And we respect their decision. And now, British comic Gina Yashere has made it big on both sides of the Atlantic. A veteran of the UK comedy scene, she's also had huge success in the US, appearing on The Tonight Show,

having three different comedy specials streaming on Netflix, and is now the star of the hit US sitcom Bob Hart's Abishola, which she co-created as well. Now she's just released her first book, a memoir. Gina writes about growing up as a child of Nigerian immigrants in working class London and how this unique background helped her make it to Hollywood. The memoir is called Cack Handed. So I asked Gina what the story is behind the title. It's kind of a metaphor. I'm left-handed and if you know from an African family, African, Asian, Middle Eastern, the left hand is the hand, the cack hand. I get it. I'm a left hander too. That's the hand that's used to wipe your bottom after you go to the toilet.

Absolutely. If my mother walked into the kitchen and I was cooking with my left hand, that food went in the trash and I got slapped around the head. Oh, Gina, I understand. I too was made to eat with my right hand because you cannot eat with your left hand. Exactly. And even to this day, as a grown woman, I still do certain things with my right hand because it was, and I was ambidextrous for a while because my mother made me write with my right hand for hours. So that's part of the reason why the book is called Cat Candid. And also it's a metaphor for the journey that my life has taken. I am awkward and clumsy. They say that left handers are awkward and clumsy. I don't think it's true. I think it's because we live in a right-handed world.

If I'm next to you in a bar and you're gesticulating with my left hand and you put your drink on your right-hand side because you're right-handed, I'm going to knock over your drink. Not because I'm clumsy. It's because the world is right-handed. But also the book is a metaphor for the journey that my life has taken, all the obstacles I've had to circumvent, the way my career has sort of taken turns and stuff.

And so that's what the title means. You mentioned your mum there, and lots of people of colour might say that they've grown up with much stricter parents than their white counterparts. But you say no one was as bad as your mum, who I have to say I feel like I've gotten to know very well having read your book. Tell us about that.

Yeah, my mum was super strict, but obsessively strict. I don't know whether it came from fear because she, you know, ended up in England in the 60s on her own without her husband with, you know, with all these young kids. And I think it was a fear of something happening to us. And England in the 70s was not a fun place we routinely got chased and spat on by skinheads so my mum was super super protective of us but she was over the top you know the joke that I do about having a scrapbook of button train crashes and bringing it out whenever we wanted to go anywhere and go you see these children these children are dead you know what they're dead because they went on a school trip and now they are dead that's why you're going to

stay at home with me. 100% true story. She used to cut newspaper clips, clippings of accidents and clip them in this book. And so whenever we asked to go anywhere, she'd bring it out. So I don't think anybody else's parents ever did that. My mother was obsessively crazy overprotective. So I couldn't wait to escape.

And when I did, I did everything that wasn't, you know, I bungee jumped, I jumped out of planes, I rode motorbikes, I scuba dived, even though I couldn't swim. I did all the things that I felt like had been suppressed, you know, within me as soon as I left home. But there are some pretty serious themes that you bring out in your book about, for example, how your stepdad treated you, your brothers, your attempt to self-harm, which really stood out for me. Did humour, comedy, was that a way for you to process some of these difficulties that you felt growing up? Well, I used comedy as a tool to avoid confrontation as a kid,

as an African kid, a kid of African immigrants in the 70s and 80s. We weren't the cool kids that we are now. We didn't have Wizkid and David Owen, all these super Nigerian celebrities killing it. You know, as a kid, it wasn't cool to be African. So I got teased a lot at school. I got teased. And to avoid being bullied, I used to fight all the time. I was physically aggressive to stop myself from being bullied. And then later on, I realised, oh, if I could use comedy and be funny and be the class clown, that kind of diverted the attention, the physical aggression that I received in the bullying. I diverted that.

And instead of fighting people, I made them laugh instead. And that's how I use my comedy. And I suppose it's followed me all through life and became a living and then obviously when I was writing the book even though I'm writing about dark chapters of my life some of it I will find the humour in it. You bring this all out in a very novel unique way and the other issue that you go on about which you've spoken about here already is the matter of racism and your experience quote from one of your routines says, the Brits are best at racism, better than the Americans at racism.

They are so good, you don't even know that you are being discriminated against. And whilst I was laughing at that, it got me thinking. I mean, what exactly is the difference for you when it comes to racism on both sides of the Atlantic there? Look, it's just as insidious. It's just as horrible. But the Brits are better at pretending it doesn't exist. The Brits insist that it doesn't exist. And American racism is definitely more in your face. You've seen it played out all over the world. And, you know, the concept in America, the belief in America that Britain was

less racist because they considered the Brits somewhat polite and genteel and tallyhoes and crumpets and tea. And they forget that Europeans were the number one slavers. At one point, the British Empire subjugated a very huge proportion of the planet. They forget that. Americans learnt their racism from the Brits. So, yeah, that is the difference. I feel like America is more in your face, but the Brits have learnt to hide it better. They even hid their slavery better by putting all the people they stole on Caribbean islands away from the eyes of British society.

So they weren't aware that it was going on. Whereas Americans brought their stolen people to America, so it was all right there in front of people's faces. So there's the difference. What I'm hearing from you is you are the master of taking a really difficult societal issue, turning it into comedy and sending out a really strong message. That's quite an art. I'm a genius. Did you not know this? No, I'm joking. Yeah, look, I've never set out to

be a political comedian. Just by virtue of who I am, I'm a walking political statement. I'm a black woman, gay, child of immigrants. I'm a walking statement. So whatever I talk about, if I'm a black woman, gay, child of immigrants. I'm a walking statement. So whatever I talk about, if I'm talking about elements of my life or my life experiences, it's going to be perceived as political just because of the way that I'm perceived and treated in society. I'm a comedian and my first port of call has always been to comed. It's always been to entertain. And that you do.

Can we talk about your sexuality if i see something i'll say something and you've talked about your sexuality there you've mentioned it you've spoken about it in your book and i do in the last few minutes want to touch on that because i imagine it's been quite a journey for you to understand your sexuality and i want to understand how it was received by your nigerian, where I imagine, as it is in many Asian and African cultures, it's just not openly discussed and quite possibly not openly accepted. No, it's not. Unfortunately, you know, Africans were never homophobic before they were colonised by the Brits and the missionaries that came in and took away their natural belief in different deities and spirituality and forced Christianity on them. They were not homophobic.

Africans, hundreds of years ago, believed in the spirituality of a person. They weren't hung up on gender and sexuality. But when the Brits came with their Christian diet, you know, religion, they forced it on Africans. And unfortunately, it's been sort of beaten into us over hundreds of years my mother's a Christian uh so she was not pleased when I came out to her uh she wasn't pleased at all but the love of her child conquered all and uh so at first she didn't want to acknowledge it she didn't she you know but my my girlfriend who I've been with

for seven years when she met my mother she bowed before my mother in a show of respect. And she's a white woman. She did the research. I didn't tell her to do that. And now my mother loves her. And that was Gina Yosheri speaking about her new book, Cack Handed. Finally, even if you're not into football, it's a story you can't avoid. England is through to the finals of the Euros after a nail-biting match against Denmark. In a moment, we'll hear from Atomic Kitten, who reunited after 15 years, so they can give their full support to Gareth Southgate and the England team.

Their hit, Hole Again, with lyrics created by the England fans, has been released. But first, let's hear from Emma Hayes, the Chelsea women's manager who was part of the commentary team during Wednesday's game. I have honestly woke up this morning thinking about that being my favourite moment as a football fan my entire life. And clearly, you know, I couldn't control myself with righty

in the gantry, but that was hands down the best moment I've ever had as a fan. Why? The emotion, the sound at Wembley was unreal. I've never, ever heard anything like that at Wembley before. It was united. It was unanimous. I really felt the crowd drive the team on, especially the second half onwards. There was a togetherness that has rarely been seen with previous England

teams. We can resonate with the players, with the staff. I've lost my voice this morning. I'm hung over from adrenaline. Is that it? Of that game. No, nothing else? Yeah, definitely. No, no, I had to get up to a baby this morning. So that changed my thinking. But I've experienced so many different situations as a coach, as a semi-final. And I always think semi-finals are on some levels so much better than the final

in terms of, you know, you're aspiring to get to something. But last night was an experience unrivaled and I'm sure the rest of the country is saying the same thing. How do you feel about that moment of you and Righty going viral? Oh, I just, you know what, I'm a fan. I love football and to celebrate a moment like that with 60,000 people and someone as passionate as Righty, it'd have been rude not to celebrate

is Roy Keane next to me on the left he had the ump but you know I made sure you know I tried to get him moving a little bit he was pleased for us but didn't get much of a smile out of it I was gonna say I'm not surprised because anyone who knows Roy Keane wouldn't be but the point or watches him I should say I don't know him but what I was going to say is you say you lost yourself you know you just let yourself go in to say is you say you lost yourself. You know, you just let yourself go in that moment. Are you not normally a jump around person? I don't know.

If anyone sees me on the touchline when my own team score massive goals, I'll probably behave exactly the same, except it lasts a lot longer as a fan. As a manager, you're having to regroup and think about the next action for your team as a fan. It was just blissful for however i mean the equalizer in the timing of the equalizer i think was significant i heard a description of harry canes being almost like a version of a you know people say it's a one two into the net it was more like the COVID first and second jab all over for everyone. And, you know, those boys are amazing. Gareth and his team are fantastic.

And everybody's bouncing into the weekend, excited about, you know, what could be come Sunday evening. What are you going to do Sunday evening? I'm due to go to Cornwall on holiday with my family Friday. And ITV are asking if I want to go to the game and it's one of those moments where I'm thinking I know I need a holiday but how can you miss a European Championship final?

You can't, can you? I think I'm going to be getting in a car coming back for the game and then head straight back on holiday Well, I think we need you there You can now become our mascot after you're jumping around with Righty. It was so infectious to watch it. I'm absolutely buzzing this there. You can now become our mascot after you're jumping around with writing. It was so infectious to watch it. I'm absolutely buzzing this morning.

I'm sure a lot will feel the same. Let me just ask you also around, did you hear the Atomic Kitten tribute for Southgate? So I've got no voice. I've sung every song. I'm surprised it didn't come down the mic, but what a cracking song. This is our time.

It is our fate. Because I just can't go on. It's already been too long. Football's coming home again. We've got one of the kittens on the line, Natasha Hamilton. Hello. Hello, how are you? I'm all right. This is a treat at the end of the kittens on the line, Natasha Hamilton. Hello. Hello, how are you? I'm all right.

This is a treat at the end of the programme. How do you feel about your song becoming the anthem? It's all a bit bizarre, but it's been such a rollercoaster few days, you know, with me and the girls coming to London and getting swept away with just all the excitement to support England. It's been brilliant. I also thought I might have your fellow kitten.

It's Liz McClarnon. Hiya, how are you? I'm all right. Thank you so much for joining us. How are you feeling about all of this? Well, I mean, apart from being a bit hungover, you know, we're just, you know what, we honestly, honestly, we just loved hearing the fans chant it so much that we just we wanted to join in. And it's just it's just a bit of fun and it's gone a bit nuts. So we're just a bit freaked out and happy, but totally like it's nuts.

I'm happy you say a bit hungover because I've had a lot of messages about that. A few people saying Gareth Southgate, you turn me on. Is that how you all feel? Yes, right now, everyone's very turned on by Southgate do you know what could you do us could you do us the honor potentially I don't know if both of you can would you mind giving us a little blast for our last minute you want to do it okay Natasha go for it yeah looking back on when we first met I cannot escape and I cannot forget Southgate, you're the one You still turn me on

Football's coming home again Yeah! Woo! Natasha Hamilton and Liz McClarnon there from Atomic Kitten. However you're watching the game this weekend or not, have a great one and do join Emma on Monday for more Woman's Hour at 10am. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.