Woman's Hour - Lana Clarkson, Cosmetic Fillers, Confessions of a Duchess, Debut novel Girl A

Episode Date: January 18, 2021

Music producer Phil Spector who has just died in a California jail was serving a life sentence for the murder of the actor Lana Clarkson. Lana Clarkson starred in a number of 1980s B movie sci-fi films like "Barbarian Queen" but at the time she met Spector she was working in a bar. Emma is joined by the biographer of Phil Spector, journalist and author Mick Brown. New exclusive research by reporter Melanie Abbott for Woman's Hour has found more and more aesthetic doctors and nurses are treating women for mistakes made injecting fillers by untrained practitioners. Melanie Abbott, Sharon Bennett from the British Association of Cosmetic Nurses and Labour MP Carolyn Harris from the all party parliamentary group on Beauty, Aesthetics and Wellbeing join Emma. Duchess is the new podcast from Duchess of Rutland Emma Manners and daughter Lady Violet in which they talk to titled women who are responsible for ancestral piles around the UK. They have their own huge place, Belvoir Castle, and they join Emma to discuss the pros and cons of running such a business. We've all seen images in the press of houses where terrible things happened and heard stories of children held captive by their parents. Abigail Dean's first novel 'Girl A' is told by Lex the survivor, the one who flagged down a car and escaped from 'The House of Horrors'. It explores the impact on 'Girl A', as she was dubbed, of childhood trauma. She and her six siblings have different stories and different outcomes - what happens to those left behind when the headlines and the fascination fall away?Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, it's Emma here with today's edition of the Woman's Hour podcast. We've got everything for you from fillers through to the confessions of a duchess. Enjoy. Good morning. Lana Clarkson, that's the name to remember today. You may not know very much about the actor other than she was murdered by Phil Spector, the imprisoned music producer who died over the weekend from COVID-related complications. We seek to redress that this morning on Woman's Hour. We're also taking a long, hard look in the mirror today on behalf of all those people,

mainly women, who've had their fillers go wrong, those injectables, to plump the lips, to make wrinkles go away. New exclusive research for Womanza has found more and more aesthetic doctors and nurses are treating women for mistakes made injecting fillers by untrained practitioners, sometimes for really serious complications, which could end with skin dying and falling off, or even blindness. Anyone in the UK can administer them, anyone at all. We'll be exploring this, but before we do, have you gone for them?

Why? What was the result? And how did you research the person who injected you before having fillers? Of course, I should say, you aren't meant to be having these procedures during lockdown, so how are you coping perhaps without them? Or are you breaking the rules, going to see your practitioner anyway? You don't have to give your real name. Text us on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate.

Or on social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour or email us your experience and views on this through our website. Also, Duchess podcasts are seemingly all the rage. First, the Duchess of Sussex, Meghan, goes for hers on Spotify. And now the remaining duchesses of the UK are getting in on the rage. First, the Duchess of Sussex, Meghan, goes for hers on Spotify and now the remaining duchesses of the UK are getting in on the act. If the viewing figures of TV period drama Bridgerton

are anything to go by, they're on the money. How do you handle 356 rooms? We'll get an insight a bit later into the programme. Now, over the weekend, we heard that the convicted murderer, Phil Spector, died from complications related to COVID in a California jail at the age of 81. He was serving a life sentence for the murder of the actor Lana Clarkson, who was found shot dead at his house in 2003. Lana had starred in a number of 1980s B-movie sci-fi films like Barbarian Queen, but at the time she met Spector, she was working in a bar. Famous for the wall of sound used in some of the biggest hits from the 60s, 70s and into the 80s, Phil Spector was once

described as the greatest record producer ever by John Lennon. I'm joined now by the journalist and author Mick Brown, who's written a biography of Phil Spector called Tearing Down the Wall of Sound, The Rise and Fall of Phil Spector. Good morning. Good morning. Talented but flawed producer Phil Spector has died. That was the original headline the BBC used and typical of many headlines, actually garnered a lot of criticism yesterday. Do you understand that? Yes, I do. And I can understand why Lana Clarkson is the forgotten victim in this. In some ways, journalistically, I can understand. I mean, Spector was a monumental figure in the record business, a very, very important figure in the record business. But it's very sad, as you say, that Lana, and I'll call her Lana, should have

been forgotten. You've met Phil Spector, in fact, very close to this murder. Yes, he hadn't given an interview in something like 25 years. And I managed to secure an interview and went out to Los Angeles to see him, visited him in the Pyrenees Castle where he was living at that time. I had the most extraordinary conversation with him where he talked very candidly and at great length about all the psychological and emotional problems that he'd suffered over the years. I have devils inside, I feel crippled inside, I take medication for schizophrenia, although I'm not schizophrenic.

And at the end of this conversation, he said, but I'm trying to be a reasonable man, that's what I'm trying to be, a reasonable man. And those were the words that really were echoing in my mind as I was driven away from the interview in his rather majestic 1965 white silver cloud Rolls Royce. He had been violent with other women in his life. Yes, he had. And this, I have to say that I wasn't aware of the full details of this at the time that I met him. This all emerged really in the course of the trial. There were two things about Speck, well, many things about him, but the salient things in this conversation are

he had an obsession with guns. And I think that goes very much to the fact that he was from a very, very early age, he was small physically, he was put upon, he was bullied. And guns gave him a sense of sort of self-assurance and self-confidence. And he also didn't like to be left. His father had killed himself when Spector was nine, so I think he had what you call abandonment issues, and not just with women, but with lots of people who'd been to see Spector and who'd been guests in his house. It had got to one o'clock, two o'clock in the morning, time to go.

No, you're not leaving. I want you to stay. And women had been kept in the house under that kind of duress. And this is very salient because when your article comes out from that interview that you had had together, how long is it before he goes to murder Lana Clarkson? It was about four or five weeks. In fact, the article, well, four or five weeks since the interview. Yes. The article came out on a Saturday. And the following day, on the Sunday, he was out and about cruising around Los Angeles, bar hopping, essentially.

And the last stop was a nightclub called the House of the Blues. And Lana was, she wasn't actually a waitress, she was there working as the VIP greeter and in the course of, he wasn't there for a very long time but he tried to hit on the waitress who had served him drinks. She declined and at the end of the evening, Lana, it was her responsibility really to say it's time to go Mr Spector and he fell into conversation with her and it seems as if he must have somehow persuaded her to come back to the house.

And I can well imagine how he would have done this. Come back and, do you know who I am? Do you know the people I work with? Come look at John Lennon's piano, which he had in the house when I went to meet him. And Lana was somebody whose career was in a bad place, and I can well imagine that she might have thought this would be quite a useful sort of connection to make.

And so she agreed to go back with him. And in fact, it subsequently emerged in the trial that as she got into the town car with him, that was going to take him back to the back to the castle. She leant over to the driver and said, I'm only going for one drink. I won't be long. And Spector turned to her and said, you don't speak to the driver. And part of the trial and the defence, I know you were at the first trial, not the next trial, but part of it was to tear her apart, wasn't it? Very much so. Yeah, she was basically the person who was put on trial. And as I say,

she was in a bad place in her life. Her acting career, she was 40. Her acting career was essentially over, although she didn't think it was over. She'd taken this job really to sort of get by while she was looking for other work. She had plans to try and relaunch herself as a comedian. So she was in a bad place. And that's why I say I think that she would have perhaps seen this as an opportunity to enhance her career. And of course, that turned out to be a fatal mistake.

I mean, they said things along the lines of she kissed the gun as if it was almost her fault. Yeah, there was this strange phrase that the defence put forward, accidental suicide. And it was never quite explicit what they were suggesting, but they were sort of suggesting that she'd taken the gun and was playing with the gun around her mouth, perhaps even using it to taunt Spector, although that was never actually said. But they tried to depict her as somebody who was washed up, depressed, potentially suicidal, a mess, really. And almost that she'd sort of somehow inveigled herself into Phil Spector's life. Brought it upon herself.

Brought it upon herself, yeah. And we've got a message here from Helen who's listening saying, yes, too much reporting on the wall of sound this weekend. Hashtag remember the victim, which you're're helping us do but also through this very rare prism of the fact that you've actually sat with Spectre one of the very few people who had done for some time as you say for years and years and as you say he told you the demons were haunting him were you scared of him when you were with him? Were there any signs that he could be capable of murder? No, not in the slightest. Of course, at that point, he hadn't murdered anybody.

No, but he had been, of course, as you say, it emerged, he had been very violent with women and abusive. Yeah, but that, as I say, the full picture of that emerged much later through the trial. But he had a reputation for having a fondness for guns and for playing with guns. He'd fired a gun into the ceiling of the studio when he was working with John Leonard. He'd held a gun to Leonard Cohen's neck and said, I love you, Leonard. And Cohen had apparently just sort of very calmly pushed the barrel to one side and said, I'm glad you do, Phil. So he had this reputation, which in any other world, of course,

would have been a signal that this person needed intervention and needed help. In the rock and roll world, this was taken as eccentricity. Oh, Phil, Phil, you know, Phil's crazy. Phil, we love Phil. And it has to be said that he was, while a very sick man, and I think he was a very sick man, he was also a very amusing man. He was a terrific anecdotalist. He was somebody that people liked to be around. It almost seems as if he was channeling the ghost of Lenny Bruce at times.

You know, he was wisecracking. I mean, it's important to hear that, to hear how society can aid and abet people into situations which couldn't be foreseen. But, you know, as you say, perhaps there should have been an intervention. I think so. Yeah, I think there should have been an intervention because as it emerged through the trial, he had a history over the years of particularly with women that women would want to leave. And he would pull a gun to threaten them and say, you're not going anywhere. And eventually, come to his senses, or the situation would de-escalate, and they were able to leave, of course. But he certainly had this history. And there were five or six women who testified in court to this effect. How will you remember Lana Clarkson? Well, I never met Lana Clarkson,

but from everything I heard about her, and I spoke to many friends of hers subsequently, she was obviously somebody who, even if her career wasn't in the best of places, she was somebody of tremendous enthusiasm, tremendous passion. She had a great joyful life. Everybody said this. And she was a very generous woman. She was very generous to her friends. She was volunteering for a project delivering food to AIDS patients. You know, she was somebody that was living life absolutely to the full. And she didn't think her life was over. She thought this was just a temporary way station in what would be a wonderful future. And Spectre, of course, took that away from her. Mick Brown, thank you very

much for your time and recollection. Thank you. Now, new exclusive research for Woman's Hour has found more and more aesthetic doctors and nurses are treating women for mistakes made injecting fillers by untrained practitioners, sometimes for really serious complications, which could end up with skin falling off or even blindness. The British Association of Cosmetic Nurses found 40% of their members have rectified problems over the last two years, and a separate survey by the British College of Aesthetic Medicine found 72% of their doctors had treated people for bodge fillers in the last year, though their sample size was smaller.

Some of the mistakes were potentially very dangerous, as we've said. And we should say at this point, anyone in the UK can administer these injectables. But in some countries, like Spain, you do have to be a doctor. Our reporter Melanie Abbott has been looking into this. Melanie, can you break down these figures for us a little more, please? Yeah. So the British Association of Cosmetic Nurses, they had 300 nurses replying to that survey. 5% saw problems that they judged as minor. Three quarters, though, were reported to be moderate. But worryingly, a quarter were severe. Like you said, they were things like blocked arteries, which means that the blood flow has stopped. It means the skin is starting to die. It's a process called necrosis.

The British College of Aesthetic Medicine, which represents mainly doctors and some dentists, had more complications from fillers by non-medics. 72% of their members reported having to put mistakes right. But half of their members had also seen complications, I should say, by healthcare professionals. And I should also say that their sample was much smaller. Only 87 of their 400 members responded to that survey. Yeah, I mean, this is obviously a big issue. We're getting a lot of messages about this. And in terms of what we should take from this, I mean, is this happening because more clinics are closed because of lockdown or is this the general picture at the moment? It's not really a lockdown thing. I mean, people were getting fillers done by beauty therapists, hairdressers and so on long before Covid.

It's big business and it's very popular. And we've heard of things like Botox parties, even fillers parties around people's flats. You know, you just go and you'd line up and you'd get your injection done. But it does seem that lockdown has perhaps led to more people getting treatments from places where they wouldn't normally go to because where they normally go is shut. People like Emma, who I spoke to, she went to someone she'd never used before when her usual clinic was closed. I got there, it was at a flat actually, I thought it would have been a proper place, but there was nobody there. And then a car pulled up and a lady come running out the car. But I don't know, I didn't feel right to start with, but I went in, quick chat, I can't even

remember cleaning my lips or anything to make them like sanitized and the next minute I turned around the needle was in her hand and she just started doing it and at that stage did you have any worries yeah but it was like I'd already committed to it I sort of just went along with it I shouldn't have really because I knew the risks and um things she must have hit an artery straight away with the point she didn't because she disappeared out the room for a couple of minutes and literally as soon as I looked in the mirror me lip was swelled out probably like the size of a golf ball really it was that swollen so quickly yeah it was throbbing pulse and black and she just said oh you're gonna bruise really bad and I didn't even see anything I just basically

got up and went straight away I've had my lips done like numerous times in the past and I knew 100% that wasn't bruising. I knew it was going to get worse and as soon as I got home, tried to put ice on it, the swelling was just getting worse and worse. I was putting ice packs on all the time. Got them done on the Thursday night, it was a Saturday morning when I'd woke up, it was my gums were tingling. It felt like my teeth were throbbing as well. My face was going purple from my lips all the way up the side of my nose because there was no blood supply getting in that does not sound good no there was no oxygen no blood supply all this time I was still messaging her sending her photos saying

look it's it's not a bruise and she was just fobbing us off to say it was and in the end I said look I've had to go to an emergency clinic this it needs sorting out. And she still insisted that it was bruising. How quickly were you able to get the treatment you needed then? Obviously, it was getting worse. Two days after I was straight through with the clinic to get them sorted out. And what did the clinic say? She deals with them all the time. And she said this is probably by far one of the worst cases she's seen.

She deals with them on a weekly basis. How long did it take to carry out the treatment to rectify it all? My skin was losing the blood supply all up the side of my face into my nose so it wasn't just my lips that had to be injected she had to inject behind my nose and all up the side of my nose and my face because all the whole artery was blocked so it all had to be from probably just under my eye all the way down my face. And then all through my lips had to be injected. But she'd said if I had left it any more days,

it probably would have been a plastic surgeon that had been booking in for lip reconstruction, not just to get them dissolved. So I was lucky really to get in and get them done at that time. How do they look now, your lips? When she dissolved them, they weren't like symmetrical anymore.

They were a bit, a little bit wonky. They weren't straight. There's another lady who I've used in the past. She's absolutely excellent as well. I've been to her and she's just put one mil back in my top lip just to nice even and straighten it out again. And they look absolutely perfect. Sounds like you were very lucky.

Yes, definitely, definitely definitely was might have been somebody who'd only had them done for the first time and that happened and the lady who carried the procedure out had said oh no it's a bruise it'll go it'll go in a few days somebody could have listened to that and they wouldn't have known the risk could have just thought oh yes it's a bad bruise I'll leave it and that's when it gets to the point of where you can end up losing your lips. Why were you so keen to get your fillers done? I don't know. I just, to be honest with you,

I hadn't thought about it all the way through lockdown and it didn't even cross my mind that she shouldn't have even been practising at the time I got them done. It might have been just over a year since I'd had the last lot done. A lot of people say to us, I've got quite big lips to start with,

why did I start faffing with them? But it's just your security of yourself, isn't it? If it makes yourself feel better then why not basically. Can problems like this be rectified Mel? Well yes if it's identified early enough as Emma says and if you go to the right person then yes it can be dealt with pretty easily. Emma was treated by Sue Young. She's a cosmetic nurse based in South Shields. There was a very obvious necrosis to her upper lip. She had loss of blood supply to the lip and also to the main facial artery that goes up the side of the nose and also the artery that goes across the nose as well which had led to this patch of

dead skin on her upper lip and there was also some discoloration inside the mouth where the the blood supply wasn't getting to the area. How worried were you about it? Extremely because once that skin has actually died because there's no blood supply then it goes black and it comes off and sloughs away that had started with this lady she also had signs of bacterial overload so there was pustules around the area as well um so it was it was quite a nasty one sometimes and although it hadn't happened in this lady's case, the facial artery does join up with the retinal artery. And we have had cases of blindness caused by dermal filler. I was very concerned for her. You say you dissolved it. Just talk me through exactly what you do.

We can dissolve hyaluronic acid filler, which is most filler that's used in the country at the moment. We use an injection. So we use needle to dissolve that filler, no matter where it's traveled to. And once you've injected that, almost, should we say the antidote, as it were, to the filler, how quickly does it start working? It starts to work immediately um so we we massage and massage and try to manually break down the the filler as well generally speaking it's it's more or less instant works within minutes there you go sue young a cosmetic nurse based in south shields talking there to our reporter, Melanie Abbott.

I'm joined now by Sharon Bennett from the British Association of Cosmetic Nurses. And I'll be talking to the Labour MP, Carolyn Harris, shortly from the all party parliamentary group on beauty, aesthetics and well-being, which is actually in the middle of an inquiry into non-surgical cosmetic interventions. Welcome to you both. Sharon, I'll come to you first. If these mistakes can be put right relatively easily, how worried are you if things are going wrong? I think Emma's story and Susan's story is very common. And I think Emma was very lucky in the fact that she found Susan in, I suppose, the nick of time, really. What is happening is that if the patient or the member of the general public has a complication, they don't know where to go.

And if they're not being served efficiently by whoever they go to, be that doctor, dentist, nurse or beauty therapist, they then have to go, where do they go from there? Often they'll go to their GP, who is ill skilled to deal with this sort of thing. And so the worry is... Well, skill does not seem to be prioritised right now, does it? Because anybody can do this. Skill doesn't seem to be prioritised at all, unfortunately. Why do you think the government hasn't changed the law over this?

I think the government have been looking at this for a very, very long time. I sceptically think that this is a purely economic decision by them not to move forward. They need compelling. One thing is very, very important. They need compelling evidence for some reason to show that something is dangerous, rather than accepting that this is a medical treatment and should only be in the hands of medical professionals. And there's no doubt that this is a medical treatment. You're putting a prosthetic gel deep in someone's face and you've got a lot of anatomy and physiology and medical understanding to understand. However, there seems to be a need for evidence.

And the problem is the reporting of complications is highly fragmented in this country. We are, of course, trying to do our bit today. We did ask the government why recommendations made eight years ago, which said people injecting should be clinical and administered, as you're saying, by those who are trained, haven't been followed. We invited the health minister, Nadine're saying, by those who are trained, haven't been followed. We invited the health minister, Nadine Dorries, onto the programme. She declined, but told us she realises too many women are being left scarred and traumatised after having injectables

and is working to bring in more safeguards, which includes registering and licensing practitioners. Kate's got in touch saying, I'm feeling sick listening to this account of lip filler gone wrong on Women's Hour just now. It sounds horrendous. Please be careful, folks. Another question here about why hasn't been the person who has done this in the first place? Why have they not been charged with unlawful practice? Let's bring the Labour MP, Carolyn Harris, in at this point. Carolyn, do you think injectables, fillers, these things we're talking about, do you think they should only be done by medically trained people, as is the case in Spain?

I think they should be done by suitably qualified and trained people. I mean, I've come across a lot of cases where medical professionals have been as reckless as booty technicians. It would be a good start, wouldn't it, if you were actually trained and you were something to do with medicine well you need to have a high standard of qualification and understanding of it in order to be able to do any of these procedures the problem now emma is there is no regulation around who can do these you have to be medically trained to do botox which will dissolve within six weeks, but you don't need any qualifications to do fillers. It's absurd. We need to have stringent regulation, adequate training and appropriate qualifications for anyone to be able to do this.

Do you think beauty therapists should be banned from injecting? Well, we're in the middle of an inquiry, so we haven't decided one way or the other. But what I'm saying, Emma... It's pretty clear what Sharon thinks. Why aren't you on board with her? She's from the British Association of Cosmetic Nurses. Because I've heard from as many people who've had

treatments done by qualified medics who've had as bad if not worse experiences. I've actually spoke to a GP who will do remote prescriptions for Botox for £50 for life. So there's an element... And I can accept that.

Let me put that back to Sharon in just a moment. But I do have to ask you this. Is your committee truly impartial? You're part of this all-party parliamentary group. You do take funding from the National Hair and Beauty Federation, don't you? Yeah. We also take funding from a lot of other areas of the beauty sector. I know, but, you know, turkeys aren't going to vote for Christmas.

So is that why you're not saying beauticians shouldn't be doing this? Anyone who knows me and the way that I work would know it doesn't matter who's funding the APPG. I will have my opinion and that would be based on the evidence. I've just got to present that to the listeners,

as I'm sure you'll understand. Let's give Sharon the right to, please may I give Sharon the right to reply to what you just said. We just heard from the Labour MP there that some doctors are botching this as bad as those beauticians. Yeah, and we understand that.

And there are doctors, nurses, as in any profession, genuine mistakes happen and poor practice happens in all professions. However, the nurses and doctors are regulated and there is redress for the patients. There are systems to address anything that any malpractice or wrong practice or not following a code, there is redress for the public.

They aren't left not knowing what to do. And that's, I suppose, a big part of accountability. But I suppose if you just take a big step back from this, and some people getting in touch on this point, should we really be doing this at all, Sharon? Should we be having a situation? Have you had it done, for instance? Yes, of course I have.

Okay, well, I'm not going to assume that from the British Association for Cosmetic Nurses that you will have had to have had it done. But, you know, do we really need a situation where we're telling to people, stuff your face full of fillers? Well, it makes, I think there's a wellbeing and there's a psychological aspect to this. And, you know, we know that this industry,

if you like to call it that, or the specialism, I prefer to call it, is incredibly a high growth area. So I don't think we can even think about should we be doing it. What we would need to do is say to those people who choose to do it, to go to the right person, that right person. It is a medical treatment and you need to go to someone who is medically qualified as the prerequisite before they even start any training. Well, it's very clear what you think. We've got a message from Norman on email who says,

do you think it's worth questioning? Is there a responsibility on the people who get this done in the first place? Regards. And another one here, who needs foot binding when women will choose to do this to themselves? And another one along the lines I was just talking about from Anna. Good morning to you. While I believe women have the right to do what they want with their bodies, surely it's time to start a campaign to encourage people to love themselves the way they are. No more fillers and stuff. Carolyn Harris, Labour MP, we will come back to you when your review concludes. We look forward to talking to you again. Thank you for your time this morning. My pleasure. I read to you what the government had to say and Sharon Bennett there from the British Association of Cosmetic Nurses.

Thank you to you. Now, all life is here on Woman's Hour. We always promise you that if we can. Of course, if you miss it, catch up on BBC Sounds. But have you ever fancied hearing about what it's like to run a house with hundreds of rooms? Perhaps a problem you don't wish to have or one you'd love to have. How do you do it? How do you make it pay?

Perhaps you've been binging on Bridgerton, the Netflix period drama, millions are finding refuge and during lockdown. Now you can hear from some of the women themselves making these beautiful, colossal, but very unusual homes work. Some would say, you know, also grotesque in many ways. We can get into all of that because, of course, you might mean that literally with holes in the roof, but you might also mean how could people live in a home with that many rooms? Duchess of Rutland, Emma Manners, runs Beaver Castle, a stately home in the town of Grantham, Leicestershire. The castle has 356 rooms, costs half a million pounds a year to run. The estate features a garden, a restaurant, and it's used both as a wedding and a film venue.

You might recognise it as the stand-in for Windsor Castle in The Crown. Emma and her daughter, Lady Violet, have created the podcast Duchess to talk to other women who run these enormous houses. Welcome to you both. Emma, if I may come to you first, I've been told I can refer to you as that. Do tell us, why did you want to do this?

Why did you want to shine a light on your unusual life? Well, I have to be totally honest Emma I hadn't actually ever listened to a podcast so it was something completely new to me but Violet came back from business school in LA and said mum I think you've got to have a go at this it's unbelievable how many people are tuning into podcasts and how interesting people are finding them. And I think just reading a little precie of what you were hoping to do with this, and we'll bring Violet into it shortly. It's quite striking how it's often, and I don't wish to get this wrong so you can correct me, but it seems that women are at the helm of these homes trying to make them sustain.

Well, it's certainly the case. I mean, we may have houses that many villages would fit into. However, it's still our home. And like all other women out there listening, we've got to try and make our homes work. We've got to make them friendly. We've got to make them fun. We've got to make them come alive and hopefully warm although today i'm rolled up in a sort of a an old um an old rug here to try and keep myself warm but i've got to say i've got to say we've got you on zoom as is the way at the moment very much so and you do have the most wonderful surrounds uh behind you a beautiful painting there's some very grand wallpaper as well just to describe as radio often requires. You were not from this background yourself.

You married into it. And did you find it intimidating going into this? No, I grew up in the Welsh borders and we had a family farm and my mum and dad ran the farm. My mum ran the, we ran B&B on the farmhouse. And so I helped mum with the b&b I have to say my parents gave me the foundations of everything I've done throughout my life and I'm so very grateful to them she didn't teach me to make chutney or jam which I'm hopefully going to learn in lockdown but I did I luckily nothing truly has fazed me in my life and that's just the nature of me

but of course if I for a moment stood still and pinched myself and thought about it and everyone would around me would say you know will you cope? How will you manage? You know, I hadn't met an honourable, let alone a lord. So it was a world away from the world I came from, marrying into aristocracy. And I have to say, everyone in this world was so encouraging and supportive. Did you just get in the home with 356 rooms and just have a massive run around? I mean, I'm trying to think, what was that like the first time you went in? Yeah, the first time. So my father-in-law, who's a wonderful man, passed away in 1999.

We moved in with four children in 2001. And I said to mum, mum, I've got to get to know this place. My mother-in-law handed me the box of keys and said, good luck. And mum took all the children off to the Welsh coast on a caravan holiday. And literally, you're absolutely right, Emma, I ran from room to room with a box of rusty old keys. And I thought, you've got to find out about the place you live in while the children aren't here. Yes, well, it's certainly an insight. Violet, welcome to the programme. And I thought you've got to find out about the place you live in while the children aren't here. Yes. Well, it's certainly an insight.

Violet, welcome to the programme. Have we got Violet on the line? I'm hoping we do. Hello, Violet. Welcome to you. It's all the rage. The Duchess of Sussex, Megan's got a podcast now. And we've got yours coming at the beginning of next month. What has the community of women taught you about this world and these homes? And we were looking up this morning, there's still around estimated 3,000 stately homes in the UK. I mean, I think it's taught me obviously being the oldest of my five siblings. I've very often been asked the question about primogeniture. And I was actually reflecting

on this last night. And really, my time spent in LA at business school, I spent a lot of time reflecting as well on it. And I think what it really has taught me... Just to say for our listeners, that that is the fact that you as a daughter cannot inherit title or estate still in this country. Yes, sorry, that's what primogeniture means.

And so I guess I think, because I've always been asked a question about primogeniture I think um it's just been really fascinating because the women that marry into these estates are really the lifeblood of them and along with their husbands of course but I think um the question of primogeniture I think undermines the amazing women that have married into stately homes for the last you know know, 900 years. And what's so extraordinary about every single episode that we, you know, conversation that mum has in this series of podcasts, conversations, is you discover, you know, we discuss the women that mum's actually speaking to in the podcast.

And then we also go, mum sort of dives into the history of women that have done phenomenal things and sort of literally moulded the fabric of the building or the history of the family in their lifetime so there have been these sort of pivotal women that have been involved in all city homes over the time of history and it's just it's just the most unbelievably fascinating thing for me to listen to and encounter and I think it sort of silences the primogeniture question in lots of ways because how exciting to have amazing women marrying into these places. You've got to be pretty brazen to marry into them in the 21st century. It's not like Bridgerton and it's definitely not like Downton Abbey marrying into stately homes.

Right. Well, there you go. You've got it on the record from someone in one of these homes. And I suppose I understand what you're saying there, but perhaps you will. We will have a change soon where you could inherit it. It doesn't have to go to your younger brother, but we will see on that. I wanted to just go back to you, Emma, if I may, and ask, we're obviously being compared at the moment, the times we're living into war, much being made of that. Of course, many of these homes requisitioned during the war.

But we should say a lot of people walking the land of these homes during COVID. It's all we're really allowed to do at the moment. Have you been thinking about that, sort of how to give back at the moment? With the surroundings here at Beaver? Yeah, and just in the pandemic generally, of course, it's such a stark thing to be living in such a large place when obviously it's a time of incredible suffering as well in the world at the moment. No, of course.

And one of the things that i've just blown me away is how we've suddenly seen the cathedrals opening up their doors to allow people to go and have the um the jabs and if anyone never wanted to come and do that here the doors are here to be open oh so you have you been approached would you do it No, we haven't been approached, but it would, you know, of course we'd support anything. We've opened our grounds for people to go around and everything is changing by the day. We thought we were going to be open to the public for Christmas. Then we weren't. We managed to move. Your local MP, I hope they listen to Woman's Hour because that sounds like an invitation to perhaps give a wing to allow people to roll their arms up and be vaccinated.

Thank you very much for talking to us today. The podcast is called Duchess. It's out at the beginning of the next month. There you hear the Duchess of Rutland, Emma Manners there and her daughter, Lady Violet. Thank you for your time today. Now, to a book that a lot of people are talking about. We've all seen images in the press of homes where terrible things have happened and heard stories of children being held captive. And you can't quite believe it, but there's a book

now called by Abigail Dean called Girl A, I should say, which is told by Lex, the survivor. And she's the one in this particular story who flagged down the car and escaped from what's known as the house of horrors. This book explores the impact on girl A as she was dubbed of childhood trauma. And she and her six siblings have different stories and different outcomes. What happens to those though left to get on with their lives when the headlines and the fascination falls away. Abigail Dean joins us now. Good morning. Morning, Emma. Thanks for having me. I've read the book. I couldn't put it down, but it is horrifying. Why did you want to write this sort of story? I think that there definitely is a darkness in

Girl A, but I think my intention in writing it and what I think really kind of comes out is that it's also a book about great resilience and kind of great hope. I think Sophie Hanna said in The Guardian last week about Gurley, that, you know, it's a book full of hope in the face of despair. And that's really what I wanted to get across. You know, you have Lex Gracie Gurley, who is this kind of incredibly strong resilient female character and I think that that is um that that's the story that kind of really hooks the reader it's the it's the kind of way these different siblings have each coped um with the trauma of their childhood rather than the suffering itself. You've worked as a lawyer but is there any link that you have to this story? Is there something in your background that prompted this? No, this is very much,

Gagolay is very much a fiction. It is something that I've always had some interest in true crime. And I think that has certainly influenced my writing. Particularly, I think, you know, you often hear podcasts and, you know, watch the Netflix documentaries about true crime cases. And I find that they often focus on the kind of action itself, you know, the crime itself, and often actually the perpetrators of that crime. And I had always wondered, you know, what about the people who live with these things that have happened in the months and the years afterwards? And that's why I think Gurley focuses really on the victims. And I think Lex herself might question that word, but essentially the children who were affected by this case.

How did you research this? Because although you say it's a story of hope, and I'm not going to give anything away here, she's incredibly damaged. And there is a particular plot twist which shows you that. And I just wonder, how do you make sure that you do a good job on behalf of those people who have been through such horror? Yes, I think it is a responsibility. And I think, you know,

the first thing is kind of acknowledging that I have not been through this. And, you know, as a result of that, that there are certain research steps, certain sensitivities to take. So I spent quite a lot of time reading into psychology and into how an event like this might affect different people. Because for the siblings in the book, Lex's brothers and sisters are all those kind of different reactions, you know, are kind of reflect how people might react to these different elements. And I think that the siblings are damaged in some ways and Lex is damaged. And I think that the hope in a way really comes in, in the fact that although people can be damaged greatly by what happens to them, and, you know, I think with different degrees, everybody in their life, you know, can look back in their childhood, can look back at certain years

or months, and sort of trace what happened into the present. But at the same time, it's also possible to kind of rise above that in some cases and to live with your damage, but to learn how to kind of to process it and to sort of triumph despite it. There was a story only the other day in the papers of a waitress, I don't know if you saw this, in America, who noticed that the table she was waiting that the parents were eating, but the child was not. And she wrote a sign to him saying do you need help and he he said yes and she managed to call the police and I and I think it is hidden in society when when terrible things are happening behind closed doors and it is important as in many ways you can argue to have books which which try

and do this and I know it's also going to become on our screens as well. It's going to be adapted. Yes, yeah. I mean, that's a kind of very, the story is incredibly moving. And I think one of the things I wanted to explore in Gurley is throughout the childhood of the Gracie family, there were different people who with different degrees you know do get involved and and they do try to help um particularly um various

teachers of the children you know there's um there's one teacher in particular who kind of you get the impression has real concerns about Lex but she just can't quite get the attention and kind of get the family's kind of sort of attention really to do something. And I think she's a lovely character and many people perhaps would try and relate to that if they felt there was something around them. Abigail Dean, we're going to have to leave it there. The book is Girl A. Thank you very much for your time. That's it from us today. Make sure you download the next one. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.