Woman's Hour - Lashana Lynch, Labour Conference & women, Being married to an anti-vaxxer, Universal credit uplift

Episode Date: September 27, 2021

No Time To Die - the new James bond film that comes out this Thursday, sees actor Daniel Craig grace our screens as the famous British spy for the last time. The first "Blonde Bond" is stepping away from the role after five films and 15 years. But that's not the only change going on. London-born actor Lashana Lynch has made history - she is the first black female 007. Emma speaks to her about her character, Nomi, taking on those three special numbers and taking part in the famous franchise.As their conference continues, how is Labour doing on women? Emma speaks to Helen Lewis, staff writer at the Atlantic - former deputy editor of the New Statesman and to Ian Murray, Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland.People who get Universal Credit got an extra £20 a week when the pandemic started. It was to help families who were struggling. But the government says that extra money will be removed next month, and it was always a temporary measure. The Conservative peer, Baroness Philippa Stroud is against the cut. She worked with Iain Duncan Smith to bring in Universal Credit in 2013. She joins Emma to discuss.The pandemic has taken its toll on many marriages and partnerships, for a variety of different reasons. For one Woman’s Hour listener, something she couldn't possibly have predicted happened. Her husband of 15 years became a Covid conspiracy theorist, almost overnight. It's no exaggeration to say that it has torn their family apart. She got in touch because she wanted to share her story in case it can help othersPresented by Emma Barnett Producer Louise Corley Editor: Karen Dalziel

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to today's programme. I hope the weekend was a good one. Mine involved a slightly inebriated young woman vomiting on herself and me on a train to Manchester at 10 o'clock in the morning. To my own surprise, I sighed, got some tissues out and asked if she was OK before I found myself laughing at the situation. Deep breaths all round. I've changed. So on a personal note, I'm in the market for some of your worst train stories this morning

just to get us through another Monday. But speaking of travel, which of course you can't do today without thinking about fuel, lots of Labour members made their way to Brighton this weekend for the party's annual conference. And it was there during a fringe event that the most senior woman in Labour called Conservatives scum. Homophobic, racist, misogynistic scum, to be precise. I'm talking about Angela Rayner, Labour's deputy leader. She was speaking to some of the party faithful

and has refused to apologise for her language, saying she will do so when the Prime Minister, as she puts it, apologises for past comments he made that are homophobic, racist and misogynistic, a reference to Boris Johnson's previous remarks, including comparing burqa-wearing Muslim women to letterboxes and describing gay men as tank-topped bum boys. It isn't the first time that Angela Rayner has called those on the opposition benches scum. She did so in the House of Commons before and apologised at that time. But she also isn't the only politician to speak badly about her colleagues.

Many this morning are reminding themselves of the story from only a few days ago of the veteran Conservative backbencher James Gray, who's apologised after, quote, joking about sending a bomb to the former shadow Chancellor Annalise Dodds's office, who's now actually the shadow Women and Equalities Minister. I've got to keep up here. But are different standards applied when women speak coarsely or throw barbs and insults, or as Angela Rayner puts it, using the street language of her

working class roots to convey her anger and frustration at the actions of this government. But you could argue not everybody is deputy leader of Her Majesty's opposition. Words matter, tones are set by those in public office or trying to get the highest offices in the land. And in a time when public figures are being attacked online and off, is it the right thing for Angela Rayner, the deputy leader of the Labour Party, to describe those on opposition benches as scum and use that language and actually defend that language? 84844 is the number you need to text Women's Hour.

Texts will be charged at your standard message rate. If you want to get in touch with me on social media, it's at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website. And speaking of language and keeping with Labour, the leader of the Labour Party, Sir Keir Starmer, had this to say to my colleague Andrew Marr. Does someone who thinks only women have a cervix is welcome in the Labour Party? Look, Andrew, we need to have a mature, respectful debate about trans rights and we need to i think bear in mind that the

trans community are amongst you know the most marginalized and abused communities and wherever we've got to on the law we need to go further and we want to go further on that but whatever the debate is it needs to be a tolerant debate and i am absolutely sure that our conference will be a place which is safe for that debate to take place, and it is. Is it transphobic to say only women have a cervix? Well, it is something that shouldn't be said, it is not right, but Andrew, I don't think that... So Rosie Duffield should not have said that. Can you explain to people watching why she should not have said that? Well, Andrew, I don't think that we can just go through various things that people have said. Rosie Duffield, I spoke to Rosie earlier this week and told her that conference was a safe place for her to come

and it is a safe place for her to come. And I spoke to others to make exactly the same principle. We do everybody a disservice when we reduce what is a really important issue to these exchanges on particular things that are said the trans community are as i say the most marginalized and abused of many many communities and we need we need to make progress on the gender recognition act. That was Sakea Starmer speaking yesterday morning to my colleague, Andrew Marbury, talking about that shortly with the journalist, Helen Lewis, and other issues to do with Labour. And I'm hoping to be joined by a Labour MP and a member of the Shadow Cabinet.

Also on today's programme, the first female black 007. All will be explained. If you're a Bond fan, you definitely won't want to stay with us for that. And we will also be talking about the changes to universal credit. And we hope to hear from one woman who will be affected by those potential changes that many actually across politics have been speaking against and some speaking for. So all that to come. But first to Brighton, the Labour Party conference. Today's focus should be on the economics. The woman who would like to be the first female chancellor, the shadow chancellor, Rachel Reeves. The focus is on her and the economic plans of Labour today.

And one of the headlines of that is Labour's plan to cut business rates in England and then phase it out completely. That's where the attention should be, except it is elsewhere. And Helen Lewis, a journalist, a staff writer at The Atlantic, of course, former deputy editor of The New Statesman, joining me now, I believe, from your hotel room in Brighton. I am from currently sunny Brighton, although I'm not sure for how much longer. Well, there you go. Enjoy it while you can, if you can. Sorry, we have to take up some of that time when you should be outside. Can we get to language, first of all, but with the view of Angela Rayner. And she has stood by calling Conservatives scum. What do you make of that? It's one of those things where I imagine absolutely killed in the room,

and it's an incredibly popular thing to say in a Labour fringe meeting. But the awareness of it outside the room is quite troubling for Labour. The question is whether or not she's... Is she addressing that to Tory politicians, which is one kind of criticism, or are people taking that as being addressed to Tory voters? And actually, who wants to be told that they're scum? Absolutely no one. At the same time, I have to feel it is one of those classic confected offence rags. And I can't help feeling that in some way she's invited it in order to then have a conversation about all the things that Boris Johnson has said that's very offensive.

And what you end up doing is this contest of what's more offensive, saying that Tory voters are scum or the comments that you referenced at the top. And really here, the thing that I think it reminds everybody at conference of is the days of John Prescott, you know, Labour's deputy leader under Tony Blair. And actually, he always played that role of, you know, it was seen that Tony Blair was quite slick and smooth and, you know, spoke with a southern accent, you know, public schoolboy. And then he had kind of John Prescott to be there to be the kind of authentic voice of working people and be a bit rough around the edges. And I think that people feel that Angela Rayner plays that same role. And I think she's embraced that role. She's embraced it. And what she said, though, which is interesting in terms of the defence,

is this street language point. And you say it played well in the room. Do you think that could play with people that the Labour Party are criticised for not reaching at the moment? Well, all of the polling shows that actually voters don't particularly like that kind of language. So I think that's the issue. But, I mean, it speaks to a bigger issue that is in some ways the theme of this Labour conference, right,

which is what do your activists like versus what do the people you want to vote for you who didn't vote for you in 2019 like? And that's the tightrope really that the whole party is, you know, there are things that you could say in a Labour fringe meeting that would be incredibly popular. And you would think that, you know, it was the sort of second coming of Jesus, but that are absolutely electoral poison outside it. And that's, you know, that's that's sort of how I view this brow particularly. And in terms of Keir Starmer in this, because his popularity is quite important, to say the least, for the Labour Party, not least within the Labour Party, but actually broadly. And he's got to have one eye on that and one eye outside of it. It's striking that he's not making her apologise.

No, and I think that's again, you know, the classic Blair tactic was to say John will be John. And actually, I don't know if you remember the famous egging incident, but someone threw an egg at John Prescott and he punched them. It was actually the polling after that was that that has not damaged Labour. People thought, well, if you know, if someone threw an egg at me, then I'd probably be pretty annoyed about it, too. And I think that's the that's the defence that Rainer puts forward is the fact that this is kind of people are up and down the country using language worse than this all the time. And it's a bit pearl clutching to say otherwise. Although this is the party, and, you know, very mindful of this, because Kim Ledbetter, the sister of the murdered MP, Jo Cox, is now an MP. This is the party that lost one of their own. And yes, of course, very specific circumstances around the killing there and who was doing it and all of that.

But it's about tolerance and bringing people up away from that source of language and not stoking hatred, isn't it? Yeah, I think that's an absolutely fair criticism to make. I have to say it's not something that, you know, I would say. I think, as Keir Starmer said, it's not something that he would say. But in a way, that is sort of Keir Starmer's problem, right, is that his whole leadership at the moment is defined by the idea that he's quite a kind of bloodless, uninspiring lawyer. And I don't think that he should be going around calling people scum, but I think there is a feeling that actually, does he look like he's really angry about what's going on? Does he look like he has passion? And that's the reverse problem with that, right?

If you don't think that the Tories are governing badly and you're angry about that, why are you in the Labour Party? So you have to find ways to convey that within the civil discourse of politics. Talking of Keir Starmer, we played a clip from just, and again, as I said, we should be talking or the Labour would prefer us to be talking about their economic plans today. But the clip of Keir Starmer yesterday from Andrew Marr's programme has gone viral, to say the least, about Rosie Duffield, the Labour MP, who's not with any of you in Brighton at the moment. In terms of that particular response that he chose, what do you make of

that? And how will that have, if I go first with the Labour Party, how will that have gone down? Well, it makes me always think about, you know, the story about the rock band Van Halen and the Brown M&M's. And it was always this idea that they had a thing on their rider that said no Brown M&M's in our bowl of M&M's. And this was like the symbol of rock star excess. And what it actually turned out the real story was that they had this incredibly long list of things that had set up for gigs because they were taking huge amounts of electrical equipment, staging stuff that could kill you around the country to new little arenas they hadn't been to before.

So they put this thing about no brown M&Ms in the bowl to see whether or not the people who were setting up their amps and stuff like that paid real attention to detail. And if there were brown M&Ms in the bowl, guess what, they knew that actually also something that might electrocute them might not be wired properly. And I felt about that, I was reminded of that

when I watched that Keir Starmer answer yesterday. He saw Ed Davey get the same question on the Andrew Marr programme last week. He should have a better answer to it. He has, as far as we know, refused to meet Labour Women's Declaration, which is a gender-critical feminist group, and, you know, take soundings from them. Something which I have to say, John McDonnell met with gender-critical feminists when, you know, when he was Shadow Chancellor. It's not an impossible thing for a Labour politician to do. But the other thing that I thought was really crucial about that is Andrew Marr invited him to explain why it's wrong to say

any women have a cervix. And he declined the opportunity instead of giving what I thought was really quite close to a pious homily. Now, there is a perfectly legitimate argument to say that there are people who don't identify as women who nonetheless have female biology. They have a womb, they have a vagina, all of that stuff. And that is a perfectly fine thing to believe. And it's probably quite explicable to most people once you say that. But instead of that, it was this idea that, well, we all know, we all know that's the wrong thing to say. And if you don't know that thing, you know, that's the right thing to say. Then you're sort of on the outside in the kind of illiterate mob. And that is poisonous for Labour to give off that kind of vibe. Is it poisonous to those who say our politicians should be fully inclusive though just to your point about who you're meeting and who you're taking with you?

Well I think it's a tactical error really to pursue this no debate line and I thought it was quite hypocritical for him to then say we need to have a mature debate when we know for example the Labour Women's Declaration are having a meeting tomorrow night and not only have they hired private security they're not giving out the address of the meeting until the afternoon, simply because last time in 2019, there were people hammering on the windows as women were actually talking about their experiences of sexual violence. Now, whenever you think about that, that does not look like a respectful debate. And so what is Keir Starmer doing in order to ensure that women's concerns are heard? And actually, the thing he didn't say a lot about is that women

are a marginalised group too, right? That women face violence and they face other oppressions. And that's what makes this conflict so difficult and so thorny is you're talking about two people who have a good claim to needing attention and needing, you know, some redress from the political system. And that was what bothered me about that statement. In a moment, I've been told I'll be able to speak

to a member of the Shadow Cabinet. I'll be talking to Ian Murray, the shadow secretary of state for Scotland. But Helen, while I have you, and it may be very early to even be thinking about who's going to replace Keir Starmer, but in terms of, it's quite striking, isn't it? You've got Angela Rayner as his deputy, but in terms of those who are circling around hoping to take the mantle already, it's all men, is that right? Well, so I did an event last night with Andy Burnham, the mayor of Greater Manchester, and he was late because he was being sort of besieged in the conference hall. You know, you have that kind of aura around people thinking he was the king of the north.

He's, you know, been on TV a lot from the coronavirus. Sadiq Khan, the mayor of London, is a big figure within the Labour Party. The Times did one of those kind of pre-leadership ambitions interviews with Wegg Streeting, who's seen as being on the centre of the party. And also earlier in the summer, they did an interview with Jess Phillips, who's a very prominent media figure, although she's got a relatively junior ministerial role, saying the only way a woman will win the Labour leadership is if no men stand. And I have to say, I completely agree with her. You know, we had a contest last time. We had five women standing and somehow managed to party pick the only bloke. You know, I've spent most of the year writing about Barbara Castle, one of the greatest Labour politicians ever.

Couldn't make it all the way through. And I do think that is a persistent problem, particularly an odd one to have when the Labour Party's parliamentary party is now majority female. You know, and yet somehow there's still something stopping women getting to the top. Helen Lewis, thank you very much for your time and your insights. We'll let you get back to the glories of Brighton. Ian Murray, Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland, just joining us and listening to probably the end of that. I started by asking our listeners whether the most senior woman in the Labour Party should apologise for calling Boris Johnson scum, should she? And Boris Johnson and his

colleagues, I should say. Well, I mean, this kind of language shouldn't be being used because we should have a process of mutual respect in politics and we should have a situation whereby that we lead by example. And I don't think we should be using those kinds of words in public forums and certainly not from the deputy leader of the Labour Party. And I think Angela should reflect on the furor that it's caused and realise that it's done more harm than good. If she doesn't apologise, should she be sacked? Well, I don't think that's for me to decide,

but I think it should be reflective of the fact that we're all talking about this now when we've got some very exciting policies and we've got some very exciting changes that we've passed at conference. And Keir's got a very big week ahead of him. He's had a great weekend in terms of getting changes through to the party and to be distracted

by this, by off-the-cuff remarks when someone really hasn't engaged what the consequence would be for saying them is quite disappointing. It's disappointing, but it's not your call to make, but should she go? What's your opinion? Well, I mean my opinion is that it's

something that Angela needs to learn from. I mean, I don't think it's something that she should be sacked for, but I think it's certainly something she should learn from and make sure it doesn't happen again. We've seen a lot of ramped up rhetoric in the last few days and it just needs to stop in politics. It's not fair and it's not right. It's just also, and I don't know if you heard me ask Helen Lewis this, but it's very striking from the party that, you know, we all lost, but that lost Joe Cox, you know, in terms of having an MP who was murdered. And we're talking about, you know, language and the importance of not stoking up hate.

That's true. And Joe was a great friend of everyone in the PLP and a close friend of many of us who knew her well. It's disappointing that politics has turned into a very fiery game with languages used that really shouldn't be used. We really need to get back to dealing with the priorities of the public in a very respectful and professional manner. And politics is getting very Americanised in this country. It's getting very angry. It's getting very oppositional. It's getting very cultish and very polarised.

And I really do think that doesn't do our politics a service and it certainly doesn't do the Labour Party a service. Although perhaps when she says she's using the street language of her working class roots to convey her anger and frustration, she believes she's going to get through to people that Keir Starmer is not. Only in an interview this weekend, Angela Rayner in The Times said he needs to take his tie off when he goes in to meet people so he doesn't come across as loyally. I'm paraphrasing, but this whole idea

of being a remote North London lawyer, he's not cutting through with the people you need to win back. Maybe she's going to do a better job of that. But he's cutting through with the arguments. And we need to be talking about politics. We need to be talking about the Labour Party being an incredible alternative to this dreadful government. Keir gives you that in spades. He would be an absolutely wonderful prime minister for this country. He's got the backstory that's very similar to Angela's coming from a working class background. He's done incredibly well in life through hard work and endeavour. And he's now the leader of the Labour Party and doing an incredible job but needs time to be able to do

that needs space and he needs every single member of that team that is around Keir Starmer to be working in the same direction to make sure that we can be that alternative when it comes to the next general election otherwise the country will suffer we're seeing it suffering now as my great friend Pat McFadden the Labour Treasury Chartered Treasury Minister said yesterday people can't even buy a chicken or fill their cars with fuel at the moment. And we're talking about whether or not there's personalities that should be running the Labour Party. I think we need to get off that and back to people's priorities. I don't think a member of the Shadow Cabinet should necessarily be fear-inducing there.

A lot of people can fill their cars with fuel. It's just there are a lot of queues at the moment. But I've not invited you on to talk about fuel. It is the big issues of the day. I accept that. I wanted to get back to your party and what is dominating. And actually you talk about the priorities of the public. Is it a major priority

of the public to reform the Gender Recognition Act? Well, I think technically probably it's not a priority of the public because the top priorities of the public are right across the united kingdom the same it's the national health service it's the economy it's jobs it's education it's the future and those are the kinds of things we have to address but we're also the party of equality and there's lots as jane said actually just before i

came i just got the end of our contribution which i thought was excellent Helen, yes. Sorry, Helen, yes. She said very clearly that, you know, there's a lot of discrimination out there in terms of the trans society, but also in terms of women. And these are the kinds of things that we haven't yet resolved as a wider society. And we have to resolve and it's not just about one people or the other, it's about

everyone. So these issues need to be taken on by politics, need to be taken on by politicians because we need to push for that. That's the criticism of some is that he didn't take it on yesterday. He was asked whether one of your MPs who isn't there for safety reasons, as she feels, Rosie Duffield, was wrong for saying only women have a cervix and he replied saying she shouldn't have made that statement and it was not

right. Where do you stand on that? It's a medical science thesis isn't it? It's probably not correct on the basis that you would maybe have some men who've transitioned to be women but don't have a cervix. You might have some transition men that do have a cervix. You maybe have some men who've transitioned to be women but don't have a cervix. You might have some transition men that do have a cervix.

You might have some women who've transitioned to men who don't. This sort of technical argument gets away from the... Sorry, what was your... I didn't follow your answer. Was Keir Starmer right to say that? I don't think Rosie Duffield should have thought

she couldn't have come to conference and she's come to a perfectly safe place and I think that highlights the problem Sorry, could you ask do you mind answering the question? I didn't ask you if Rosie should come or not she feels she can't, right? It's how it is

that's what's going on with Rosie but you are a member of the Shadow Cabinet you're the Shadow Secretary of state for Scotland. Was Keir Starmer right in what he said yesterday? Well, I suppose... See, this is where I think this whole debate gets bogged down in issues that are missing the point of the debate. In terms of the actual question that you're saying,

in terms of the service question, of course biological women are born with a service but sometimes we can transition you will have people that are legally and living as women that don't so it's a it's a technical question that i think that um takes away from the major debating points here and this is the problem with this debate and we've got two very polarized parts of this debate that need to come together these issues are not irresolvable. Trying to get rid of inequality and discrimination for women and for trans people is

not irresolvable. So we have to get both sides to come together and find solutions to these problems so we can make sure that both the trans community and indeed women can progress in society and get rid of these discriminations from the past and the inequalities from the past. That's why the Labour Party exists.

But to have this very polarised debate, I think there's a disservice to both sides of this debate. We need to find a way of bridging that gap and bringing people together. These issues can be resolved. Is that what Marcia de Cordova thought last week when she resigned as the Women and Equalities Minister? Why did she step down?

I don't know why Marcia stepped down that way. I've spoken to her directly and I wasn't able to attend to her at the Cabinet last week for childcare purposes. So I'm not entirely sure of the technicalities of why she stepped down, I'm afraid. I can't answer that question for you. I'm sorry. There is a new Women in Equalities Minister, I understand

at annalees.shadow Women in Equalities Minister, which I would hope to talk to. You talk there about bringing this debate together and being respectful. Do you support the reforming of the Gender Recognition Act? Well, yes, of course. But that reform will create issues and create problems that can be resolved.

So the Labour Party fought incredibly hard before it left power in 2010 to get the Equality Act on the statute, a world-leading piece of legislation that really is a fit for purpose and does the job it's intended to do. And Harriet Harman really forced that through before Labour left government. It's been on the statute book now for 11 years. We will abide by the Equality Act. But equality for other people is also important.

And the issues that equality arises arises the issues that arise from that and have to be resolved otherwise you can't take people with you and if you can't take people with you you can't change the law for the better for everyone and these issues while incredibly complex while people are incredibly passionate about them and they need to be done in a respectful manner and we can find solutions to these things it's not impossible Have you decided as a party, I asked the Lib Dems this last week, what age you believe children can give informed consent for gender reassignment surgery? I don't know if we have a policy on that, no. You don't know?

I don't think we have a policy on that. I haven't seen it. Are you keeping all women's shortlists? We do have all women's shortlists, yes. We're keeping that. In fact, we're going to the council elections next year with a target of 50-50, which is what the all women shortlist process is designed to do. And I think that'll be hugely successful.

Ian Murray, I know you joined us very short notice. Thank you very much. And we'll leave you in Brighton. Ian Murray, the Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland. I'll come to your messages very shortly and see what you have to make of that and also about Angela Rayner and the tone of public life and language

and, of course, anything else you wish to share. The numbers you need to get in touch, 84844 is the number you need to text. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Social media is at bbcwomans.org or email me through our website. But delayed three times due to the pandemic and cinemas being closed,

finally it is time for No Time To Die, the new James Bond film out this Thursday, if that's your thing. It sees actor Daniel Craig race our screens as the famous British spy for the last time. The first blonde Bond stepping down from the role after five films in 15 years. But that's not the only change.

The actor Lashana Lynch has made Bond history, becoming the first black female 007. In the new movie, 00 agent Nomi, played by Lashana, inherits the special codename after Bond retires from service. I spoke to her earlier and started by asking how she's feeling waiting for the film to be released and if she remembers filming it. I should have known

I'd leave alone We were talking about that earlier. I do remember filming it. It's just there were moments that were hazy, but I just remember having a good time and creating a bit of history on the way, which if there's anything I'm going to remember, that's probably the best two.

And tell me what that history is for our listeners who don't yet know. First of all, you're creating history by adding to the vibration that is Pinewood Studios, which when you walk through the walls, you already feel like you're bringing that energy into your filming and into your work. And you just want to ensure that every single moment

of you being there, every moment on camera, is going to make the franchise really proud and your personal legacy really proud. So through this character, I hoped that we were pushing the needle forward. And I was also given my best work because I was provided with an incredible cast and producers and director DP that were positioning me in a way that I don't think I've been positioned before. Fool me once, fool me twice Are you death or paradise? Now you'll never see me cry

There's just no time to die I want to talk about, you know, making history as well as the first ever female black 007. There's quite a lot there. But before you got to that point and when you were first offered this, did you have any reservations about being part of Bond or were you like, sign me up straight away? The only, I wouldn't call it reservation,

but the only hesitation I had in this is the fact that I didn't foresee this coming. I think everything else in my career I've tried to manifest, like I really want to do this play. I really want to be a part of the Marvel universe. I really want to work with so-and-so. They all happened quite naturally over a course of years of trying really hard. But this came out of nowhere. I did a play at the Royal Court Theatre that Barbara Broccoli produced called Ear for Eye which has now since turned

into a film um and I I didn't anticipate off the back of that play then working with Barbara Broccoli on a Bond movie no I mean that's that's quite cool, cool journey to have made, I'm sure. So cool. But I suppose I also meant it because, you know, you say the words James Bond and then you talk about being a Bond girl in inverted commas. And while there have been some hugely glamorous, you know, amazing women, strong, powerful women associated with that, it's also not always associated with good things for women. And because of that, me walking into the room and actually having discussions with Barbara, Kerry and Daniel at the same time, I knew that the leaps that they'd made over the last few years,

especially since Daniel joined the franchise, this was just going to be a continuation of that work. I saw exactly where Barbara was speaking from. I saw Kerry's vision and I knew exactly the things that Daniel stood by, which made me feel confident that this character wasn't going to be standing behind anyone. She was going to be there in her own right, doing her own thing, bussing balls. And I love it. And I bought straight into it. And that's exactly what we provided on this screen.

Bond, you don't mind a shot or two whilst at work? Shall we? Well, I haven't had a drink for three or four hours. Wow. Doesn't sound like you. I love that you've also spoken about, you know, wanting to be good to your body and health and fitness and that you asked them to make you a ninja and they have. What do you mean by that?

They literally made me a ninja, Emma. I walked in and I said, don't hold back. I'm good. You know, I've got some, I played netball as a child. I did a bit of football. I'm in my body. And they were like, cool, are you down for doing a bit of wushu, a bit of boxing?

I was like, yeah, sure, go for it. And then when we started, I realized that, firstly, maybe I shouldn't have said that because they went for it. And also, they clarified that they were training me for life. They actually were giving me the most ninja techniques to then take not only in my personal life, but into further projects in my career. So yeah, they did actually make me a ninja. I feel like an actual ninja. I like to claim that. Okay, well, if we meet, and hopefully when we do meet in person, I won't mess. Let me ask about one of the things I know is really

important to you. And we should also bring up, you know, working with Phoebe Waller-Bridge as well in terms of the people you've got to work with as part of this. One of her specialities is making women who are believable, who you feel that you can recognise from real life. And I know that you wanted to make sure that your character Nomi was relatable in some way. How have you managed to do that? One, by coming in with that intention. But also, once I spoke to Phoebe, I realised that we were on completely the same page. She wanted the same thing.

She envisaged the same thing. And it's really important for me, for young girls, to see that even though there is a seemingly powerful woman on screen playing a powerful role in a powerful organisation, her power comes from somewhere else. It comes from some insecurity, some anxiety, questioning yourself, lack of confidence, lack of self-worth, which when you work on those things, you could turn out to be an agent once you channel all the gripes in life, all the environmental and social,

cultural things that weigh us down. And it was important that we had that initial conversation so we were on the same page and that I was creating a role that people could aspire and be inspired by. Have you ever flown one of these things before? Nope. I was going to say that those social gripes, to put it mildly, I mean, there's the aspiration of what you do with your work and what you show to people. But I do know that when news leaked that you would be inheriting the 007 mantle, as I say, the first ever black female actor to do that.

You, I understand, had to delete your social media accounts and take yourself away from that because some of the response was less than positive, shall we say. Well, it's so interesting with that talk, because nothing was confirmed, and yet everyone got their knickers in a twist. Nothing. So people don't even know what this character does in the film, yet I'm supposed to make these opinions my business, which once I realised that it's not, it made things a lot easier. So I didn't just take away my phone and just delete my social media apps and just

pretend it wasn't happening. I just realized that my mental health, my self-worth and the protection of my energy is much more important than people's opinions. So once I got grounded in that, I was able to just focus on the work which meant that I was giving my best in a franchise that deserved it and I was also allowing people to just live in their truth over there whilst I was living in mine I know it's just you know that's that's the side of it that sadly is I suppose some part of the reality of of making a bit of history and I think it's important to ask how people cope when those things come along. Yeah, gosh, a lot of meditation,

a lot of sticking to your circle of friends that keep you grounded and also just remembering that social media and the internet is a minefield that you do not need to work out on your own. It's something that's probably always gonna be there. You use it to your advantage when you can, but when it turns against you or turns against something that you believe in, remember that that is just one place. It's one space in the world that doesn't have to exist in your everyday moments of life that make you happy.

Spoken like a true ninja. Just a final question, if I can. Daniel Craig has said he doesn't believe James Bond should be played by a woman. He's joined lots of other people from the Bond universe, including Bond girl Halle Berry, who said Bond should only be played by a man. He went on to say there are other characters, essentially, that should be drawn for women. It doesn't mean that a woman has to play a man's role and a role that was created by a man for a man. Where do you stand on that? I think that's a really good point. And I was just listening to him speak earlier about the fact that we are so quick as a world to change things,

to have one role that's been a part of the fabric of the nation suddenly be changed into something else, whether it be a black person or a woman or a teenager at this point. Anyone could take it on. But if that's part of the fabric and that's actually who James Bond and 007 was meant to be, then let's just create something else for this woman who has come in to shake things up. Let's create, let's start a new franchise and, you know, put all the ideas that have been shelved because the world believes that the audiences aren't ready for it. And let's inject that into

the brains of young people who are going to be inspired by these narratives. It's really important that we don't just solely rely on taking things over. We understand that it's important that everyone gets their rightful time on screen to discuss the narratives that have been underrepresented. So have you sorted that out with Barbara Rockley? Have you got that new franchise sorted? I wish. They don't tell me anything, Emma. I don't have a clue. Well, they don't tell me anything either, but this is my job. I've got to ask the questions.

Just finally, Nishana, can you beat Daniel Craig in a fight? Now you are a ninja. Who's tougher, you or him? Oh, I'm just going to say me because just now he asked me who could be a real spy in the cast and he pointed to me and I thought, oh, yeah. Nailed it. So, yeah, I'll just say me, just for giggles.

I'm not going to mess with her. Lashana Lynch, making some Bond history and that film is out. No time to die. Finally, after being delayed three times, it's out on Thursday if that's your sort of thing. You've been getting in touch across a whole range of issues, not least whether the most senior woman in the Labour Party

who is standing by her comments calling Conservatives scum should be apologising and what you make of that. Regarding Angela's comments, a message here, she's the deputy leader of the Labour Party. The language of her deprived childhood and the street, as she puts it, is not appropriate to her position now. She does Labour no favours. Another one, though, here saying, I agree with Angela Rayner's passion.

She's lived and breathed the hardships that Tory policies have decimated in some communities. She's being honest. I'm a male pensioner. I recently, recently a teenager, a girl in a school uniform threw rubbish in the ground in the park. When I picked it up and remonstrated, she told me, you arrogant slaphead scum. Is Angela Rayner a good role model for teenagers, especially girls? A message here

from Jean, who's also listening. Good morning to you. I've been a socialist all my voting life and I'm politically aware. Generally, the adoption of gutter language speaks more about Angela Rayner rather than the people of the street. She's bringing the Labour Party into disrepute. The party seems to ignore the Thank you very much for those messages. Keep them coming in. 84844 is the number you need to text on social media.

We're at BBC Women's Hour or email us through our website. And talking about getting in touch, my next guest did get in touch because the pandemic has taken its toll on many marriages and partnerships for a variety of reasons. And for my next guest, it was something she couldn't have possibly predicted. Her husband of 15 years became a COVID conspiracy theorist almost overnight. It's no exaggeration to say it's torn their family apart. And she wrote to me because she wanted to share her story in case it helps others.

Anna joins me now and I'm not going to use her real name during this interview. Good morning, Anna. Morning. Thank you for having me. Well, thank you for getting in touch. I wanted to start by saying thank you for also feeling you could talk about this publicly because I imagine it's not easy. But let's start at what is the beginning of this chapter. When did you notice your husband was changing? Was it the beginning of lockdown or just before? So I think there were probably signs kind of before the pandemic hit of him getting more immersed in the online world. But certainly the pandemic hit.

And then the first few weeks we were sort of you know reading watching the news just like everybody else and kind of being really shocked and not knowing what was what was happening and then within a few weeks he was already starting to believe that the 5G conspiracies, constantly online. YouTube was being played all the time. And then as the pandemic sort of progressed, so did his fear, anxiety and even more bizarre thinking, I suppose. And was he talking about it with you? And I know you've got children as well.

Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, it was really, really difficult. So, yes, we did speak about it. It was a big cause of conflict. Obviously, I was looking to sort of shield the children as much as possible. But yeah, I mean, it was definitely a source of conflict and there was very little that I could do. He would just take himself off and, you know, be watching YouTube for most of the time. Had he been like this before in terms of being on his computer a lot of the time or was even that new? No, I think he had probably started before. And this just increased his anxiety, really, and just got immersed in an online world. It became his friendships, his community. And then it just continues to feed that way of thinking. So you then, yeah, it just feeds that way of thinking you stop socializing he stopped socializing um so and were you able to try and convince him of of the reality around you and what you were thinking and how you were thinking about this completely differently no absolutely and that is devastating. No, I mean, he would just, he would constantly say,

why can't you see it? Just open your eyes. He was so immersed to his core that everybody else that can't see it is either stupid or is sort of part of the conspiracy yeah when did you decide it got too much um so for me just after christmas was when um was when it we formally separated. And then the divorce proceedings. So, yeah, it wasn't the right environment. It's not the right environment for my children and it's damaging.

I truly believe it's damaging for them. Is it right that he, and where is he on this now? Where are you on this? That he won't let, we didn't want anyone to be vaccinated in the house, didn't want anyone to take any tests yeah so um i mean obviously we're living separately um however we still have to manage our parenting and yes we're on completely different um ends of the spectrum on that so yeah i mean he has been in touch with our children's schools and said that he hasn't given consent for the testing so they hadn't been able to be tested in the school environment because the schools then

didn't feel that they could so I'm assuming I'm pretty sure he hasn't been vaccinated I have been so I've I've had my two jabs. Does he know you've been vaccinated? I suspect he probably would have thought that I have been, but no, it's not certainly something I've said. And it wasn't something I told my children at the beginning either. I wanted to sort of get both vaccinations and then be able to tell them a little while later that I've been vaccinated. Because this must be very hard for them to process, for your children to try and take in. You know, for all children, it's been difficult going through a pandemic and the disruptions to their lives. But to have one parent saying these sorts of things, I mean, does he say it to them? So, yes, I think that was probably one of my real crunch points was that I wanted to be able to then bring them up in an environment whereby they felt safe and secure. Whereas because he just had no

filter. So if he felt something, he then had to say it he wasn't able to think is this appropriate is this inappropriate and you know is it age appropriate um so so yeah so therefore yeah he has said things to them absolutely incredibly difficult for them incredibly complex because I don't want to bring them into a position whereby they feel they have to choose which parent is right, which parent do I love the most, which parent do I trust the most. So moving forward, I think I just need to do it really slowly with them. I don't want to, you know, harm your ability to be anonymous in this conversation at all.

But are they old enough to reason and have these sorts of conversations and to tell them that their father's been influenced yes yeah and that has been sort of part of um the process that we've gone through and um we've had counselling as well so that's been really helpful um so that I can they've helped me guide conversations that I can have with them. So that's been really good. But, yeah, I think anything like this, though, where there is high conflict between parents, whether it's this or something else, you just I think you just need to take it really slowly. So do you feel like you've lost your husband to COVID conspiracy theories? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, we are now getting divorced. But I didn't know if there was anything beforehand in the marriage that you felt was not right leading up to this,

or this has really come out of the blue for your relationship okay um yeah i think there were there were other issues so i think what has compounded his um what i would consider paranoia um was substance abuse and that would be um he was quite a prolific cannabis user um so yeah i mean that that's obviously been an issue because it's not something i do um so yes that had been an issue and i think that certainly compounded his um paranoia with the covid conspiracies definitely who do you hold responsible for the influence he's come under you've mentioned drugs there so I presume in some way you hold him responsible for part of that.

But there is, of course, a lot of factors going on with the spread of lies and misinformation. Yeah, absolutely. I think ultimately, as an adult, you are ultimately responsible for yourself. However, absolutely absolutely the spread of misinformation the fear the algorithms because that is all he sees um because that's all that's thrown at him online um is is huge i think misinformation it's going to be one of our

biggest problems moving forward because it breaks down society he no longer trusts anybody so he didn't trust me his wife um and he didn't trust the government you then stop trusting your police your teachers you think your doctors are lying to you so it actually breaks down all sections of society um and that is that's terrifying how are you doing now um oh thank you for asking um yeah i'm okay i feel um obviously talking about it is quite emotional um however when you're in the middle of it part of the conspiracy is that it's that there's no opportunity that your life is sort of ending it's all darkness and it's all fear so now that I'm actually not within that environment I'm feeling really good I'm feeling really positive for myself

and the children and you wanted to talk about this publicly because of what? I think because I suspect there are so many people out there that have been affected by this. There must be thousands of people like me, if not their husbands or wives, parents, children, siblings, who have been affected by their loved ones being consumed by this. Because I see it as a form of addiction. So, yeah, I think there are definitely parallels. Well, Anna, I really appreciate you getting in touch in the first place and then taking the leap to come onto the microphone.

Thank you so much for talking to us. And you never know who's listening and who you might be able to help or might resonate a bit or a lot with your story. I just wanted to read a statement, a brief statement from YouTube, who, of course, you mentioned a great deal at the beginning of our conversation. And the company says it has long-standing policies prohibiting harmful and misleading medical or health-related content on the platform and continues to update policies relating to COVID-19.

In October 2020 they say they expanded their COVID-19 medical misinformation policy to remove content about vaccines that contradicts consensus from health authorities. They say they've removed more than a million videos relating to dangerous or misleading COVID-19 medical information. Now, I did say we would bring you up to date with a row that's continuing within politics over universal credit. People who receive it were given an extra £20 a week when the pandemic started.

It was to help families who were struggling. But the government says that extra money will be removed next month. And it was always a temporary measure anyway. The Conservative peer, Baroness Philippa Stroud, is against the cut. She worked with the former Conservative leader, Ian Duncan-Smith, to bring in universal credit in 2013. Philippa, what is your plan to try and get the government to do a U-turn on this? Because all signs are to the opposite. I've been back through what every minister said on it so far. Thank you so much, Emma, for giving this issue time this morning. One of the things that hasn't been made public about this

is just how many people will fall into poverty if this cut goes ahead. And we've done the calculation on that, which is 840,000 with 290,000 children. Now, that is not the government doing this modelling. And actually, they should be doing this modelling, they should be making this public, because the first thing is to be, the first thing in changing minds is actually being aware of the impact. The next reason why this is so important is obviously it coincides with a cost of living increase as well. So we've got energy bills rising, we've got inflation rising, we've got the national insurance contribution that's going to be coming in and hitting people at the same time as this cut going ahead. So we wanted to make sure that people were aware of the full facts

and we also wanted to make sure that people were aware of just what happens when all of these things collide at the same time into vulnerable families. It's incredibly destabilising. The government has a levelling up agenda. Protecting the £20 uplift should be the first step in a levelling up agenda, protecting the £20 uplift should be the first step in that levelling up agenda. But as a Conservative and looking back at what ministers have said about this, the idea that you can just keep on spending and that you can keep adding to

this and something that was meant to be temporary shows that you're not betting on the economy and the strength of the economy coming back. Those are the words of James Cleverley, who's the minister for Middle East and North America. But I could pick other words from other ministers. The whole idea was this was temporary and now we're in a position, the country should be in a position where we need to start relying on the economy and bouncing back. What would you say to that? I would be a great supporter and a great better on the economy bouncing back and also a great supporter in the fact that work is the best way out of poverty but that is not true for everybody on

universal credit universal credit is an in-work benefit but it is also an out-of-work benefit for people who can't work and this includes people who are caring for disabled children or who have disabilities themselves. And what was so great about this £20 uplift at the beginning of the pandemic is it actually went to people too who've been struggling for so long already. And the welfare state is at its lowest level ever since its creation in terms of its value. So it used to be 20, when it was first created, it was 20% of median wages.

It's now down to 12% of median wages, which is why people are really struggling on universal credit where they can't work. But the government's digging its heels in. I mean, Work and Pensions Secretary Therese Coffey has said, has backed the removal of this temporary lift, saying it would only mean two hours extra work every week for claimants. I mean, that's not actually entirely accurate because of the way the taper rate works. So as you take an extra hour at the moment, 63 percent, 63p in the pound is removed. I'm only I'm only quoting the secretary of state. I mean, this is what this is what's been said. So if she's not being accurate, I understand you're wanting to correct the record if you if you see it from that perspective or as you see it or your evidence shows you.

But what I'm saying is the government isn't showing any signs yet of change. No, but what's really interesting is that behind closed doors, Conservatives are really concerned about this. So I've spoken to numbers of Conservative members of Parliament who realise that this cut is coinciding with a cost of living increase. And it's this convergence that is really causing concern amongst conservatives. This isn't just something that Labour and Lib Dems are concerned about. This is really a matter of concern. So if you were to, I'm just very keen to actually hear from someone who's going to be directly affected by this.

Final word from you. Do you think you're going to be successful? I will do everything that I can to throw at this, to see whether we can be successful. Well, we will see what happens with that. Baroness Philippa Stroud, thank you. Caroline is a single mother of one from Northern Ireland. Good morning.

Good morning, Emma. How important has the extra £20 been? Or can you give us a sense of what it's done for you? Well, I moved on the Universal Credit last August in 2020 in the middle of the pandemic. So the £20 uplift was already there. So I have been budgeting with that budget from last August. And on a month-to-month basis, I just get by. There's never a surplus. There's no money extra left over um so if my washing machine breaks at the minute um i would have to borrow money to repair it and the same with my car if it breaks

i would have to borrow so i'm looking at this 86 pound cut coming in now and i already live on a tight budget and with the food prices rising and um we live oil heating over here. We don't have gas. And that's all going up. And I'm looking at that 86-pound cut and it's like, what do I cut now? You know, I'm on a very, very tight budget. And you're working as a childminder. I am, yeah.

So this is part of being able to earn and what you're receiving at the same time, this reality. Yeah, yeah. So this is part of being able to earn and what you're receiving at the same time, this reality? Yeah, yeah. I'm a single parent. I work with trees, with, you know, the announcement that we just have to work an extra two hours. You know, it's more than two hours for me. I would have to potentially ask five families

to take on more hours in their work. I already work 40 hours a week. All the choices, I raise my fees to them parents, which drives them into debt. And it's just a vicious circle. You know, I'm facing now either quitting my job and having to seek child care for my own child or raise my fees with the potential that them families will then leave me

because they can't afford child care and they could potentially leave their jobs and have to sit at home with their children and that's that's the circumstances that i'm sitting in right now I can't sustain continuously living on that 86 pound less from now from next week on Caroline thank you for coming to talk to us we will see what happens with uh the government and that particular decision uh Caroline working as a childminder uh single mother of one in Northern Ireland there um I have to say many messages throughout the whole programme. Thank you so much for engaging as you always do. A message actually, Anna, not her real name, that's just come in saying,

I feel so much for the listener whose husband's been brainwashed. My son, who I love dearly, has gone exactly the same way with COVID denying. I'm devastated. He seems paranoid and he sends me emails on these conspiracies. His girlfriend nearly died of COVID. She's leaving him. It's affecting her mental health badly.

My son has now stopped contact with me. Another one here. To Anna's point, a lot of people affected by this. Thank you so much for this interview. This behaviour is becoming an epidemic. Just this week, I've had to break with a long-term friend who's become totally consumed by this community to the point that she no longer cares about losing friends.

It's terrifying and heartbreaking. Thank you so much for getting in touch, because for Anna, that will help her decision to have come out and talked today. And for all of your company today, I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello there, I'm Richard Osman. Before you go, yes, I know

you've switched off already, but in case you haven't, I want to tell you about my new Radio 4 podcast, The Birthday Cake Game, a brand new comedy quiz that poses one simple question. Do you know how old people are? By which I mean, how old, say, is Bruce Willis? Hmm. Now, I know all you're doing now is thinking about

how old Bruce Willis is and not listening to me, but I can tell you each episode I'm joined by three celebrity guests who battle against each other to see how old celebrities are that week. Richard Gere. I'm still enjoying the assertion that Richard Gere has always been old. What a beautiful baby, Mrs. Gere. Unusual grey hair.

So old, your baby. The winner takes home a birthday cake. A very special birthday cake from a supermarket I can't mention, in the shape of an insect I can't mention. You know the one I'm talking about. So tune in to find out who comes on top and see if you can beat the players and score higher at home. That's the birthday cake game.

Listen and subscribe right now on BBC Sounds. How old is Bruce Willis? I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.