Woman's Hour - Late Night Woman's Hour

Episode Date: December 23, 2016

Lauren Laverne discusses the delights and perils of parties with seasoned partygoers Fran Cutler, Brigid Keenan, Bryony Gordon and Zing Tsjeng. Fran Cutler is the queen of party organisers, and thinks nothing of dialling Cher's number to ask her to perform at one of her legendary 'dos. Writer Bryony Gordon is a former 3am girl whose idea of a good night out is a party for two in her back garden with her husband. Editor of UK Broadly, Zing Tsjeng, is no stranger to the coolest parties in town, but always leaves at 3am when the 'blue plastic bag brigade' switch off Britney and start playing intelligent dance music. Writer Brigid Keenan is a former 'trailing diplomatic spouse' and once spent an entire party locked in a loo, dressed as Mary Queen of Scots. They are your guides for this Late Night Woman's Hour on partying. So have you fixed your hair? Lined your stomach? Drunk a glass of water? Your taxi is waiting....The broadcast edition of this programme will be available on Iplayer soon after transmission. A longer version will be available as a podcast.

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Most people, even if they don't want to admit it, can remember the worst party. You know the one where your teenage boyfriend got drunk and hit on everyone in the room? The one where you were so nervous that you peaked a bit early, threw up on your shoes and slept all night in the downstairs loo? The one where you said that awful thing about someone at work and they were standing right behind you? And what about the best? The one where your mate found an actual red carpet

and rolled it out down the front steps onto the garden path. Or maybe it was your nan's 80th, the last one perhaps that she would remember. Or your baby's first party, with its fairy cake and single candle. Tonight on Late Night Woman's Hour, we're considering parties. The ones that live in legend,

and the ones that live in infamy. If you're listening to this, the chances are you're listening to this, the chances are you're on your way to a party or planning one or trying to avoid one. Or maybe you've been to too many already this festive season and are heading home for your jamas and a book set. Whatever, tonight my guests are here to provide you with a field guide to parties, how to throw them, how to thrive at them, or if needs must, merely survive them. In the studio with me are party organiser Fran Cutler,

writer and former 3am girl Bryony Gordon, writer and former trailing diplomatic spouse Bridget Keenan and broadly UK editor at Vice, Zing Zing. Welcome, one and all, welcome. Thank you. Thank you. All right, so guys, can you define your ideal party in three words or perhaps a single sentence?

Best party ever, Fran, what do you think? Define it, I think, as in what makes it? Yeah, or just if I said the best party of all time. I think it's got to be the ones with the most amount of booze and the best music. If you haven't got good music

you haven't got a party. And again, it's so wrong. People think, oh yeah yeah we'll just bring out iPods and we'll just put this on it's got to have a lot of thought involved and it's got to be the predictable tunes that everyone wants to hear and everyone loves through the generations and through the ages I think if it's too modern it doesn't work if it's too housey or it's too chloe it doesn't it's got to be that hit those hits. So it sounds quite chemical then, a music that's going to make you react

and obviously Booze, that's going to do that for you, so it's quite a hedonic two going together, get you on that dance floor. Alright, got it. Bryony, what do you think? Well I agree with Fran, I once put on Ludacris at a telegraph office Christmas party and I cleared

that dance floor. We should probably clarify for the benefit of Radio 4 listeners who may not have heard the work of hip-hop supremo ludicrous. I love ludicrous. I mean, I like the best party. But I think as I've got older, a party also has to have food because otherwise I don't remember it. I am, as we speak, brutally hungover because I had people around for a party last night and failed to eat anything.

Oh, rookie error. But it needs to be just like super fun. And I think if you have the food and the booze and then you don't the next day. I always hate it when you have a party and then and it's fun. But you spend the next day worrying about what you've done, what you've said or, you know, you have hangxiety, as I call it. Hangxiety. And so I think it's really important. And I've never been able to do this.

I'm always the last person standing. But I've learnt as I've got older, you know, to leave. Fail out gracefully. To fail out gracefully. I'm still getting, I'm still learning how to do it. So a sense of fun, a lack of regret, and leaving at the right time for you, Bryony. Zing, what do you think?

What makes a good party for you? Well, I agree on the booze, but crucially, it has to be free. At the point where the party stops when people start running out of booze and having to make corner shop runs. Oh, yeah. And then the blue plastic bag brigade come in and all they want to do is drink Stella or Red Stripe and put on Deep House on stereo. That's, yes, that's the kind of 3am turning point was in my day. You're a lot younger than me.

It's a sense of continuity that's still going on. It's quite touching. There's always going to be the group of men who turn up at 3am expecting to be handed over control of the stereo. They want to take off. They want to stop the sugar baes from playing and they want to put on some very intellectual trance music. They've got some IDM, intelligent dance music, ready to share.

They've got some very intelligent dance music at 4am in the morning, which is never what anyone wants. And that's usually the time where, like Brownlee said, you just start making the eggs. Time to check out. OK, Bridget, what do you think? What makes a great party for you? My experience of parties is totally different to all of yours

because I was married to a diplomat who became an ambassador. And the whole diplomatic world is just one long party. So you have national days. Just as an example, in London, there are 167 embassies, all of whom have national days. So that's 167 nights gone on parties. I was never posted in London because my husband was EU ambassador, but we were in Damascus and that had lots of embassies. And I'm really bad at entertaining.

And when you do these diplomatic parties, you're not just allowed to do sort of whatever. We've only got the Ferrero Rocher adverts to go on, so you're going to have to sketch it out for us. What's it like? You have to do a party that is representational. That means you have to do a grand that is representational. That means you have to do a grand party, which makes your country or in my case, countries, because it's the European

Union, look wonderful in the eyes of everyone else. So if you're posted to a country, as I was, like Kazakhstan, where the only vegetables when we got there were cabbage, potatoes, onion and carrots, and you're trying to put on a really glamorous party. Challenging for a buffet. Plus, when you're an ambassador, you're allowed to have a cook. And that's wonderful, except you can never find a cook. And in Kazakhstan, I did have a cook. She was a professional cook, but she didn't speak English and I didn't speak Russian.

So we had to communicate with sounds. Like if we wanted beef, I used to have to go, we'll have moo tonight. Or chicken was... Or chicken breast, you had to clutch your bosom. So my experiences are very different to all of yours. And when did you know that it had gone well then? I mean, you know, the ideal, perhaps not the ideal party since they were quite stressful for you by the sounds of it, but when you knew you'd got it right, was there a moment?

What was that like? Yes, if everybody was chatting. I have got a really terrible party story I don't know whether I should tell it now or later but should I tell it now tell it now we were posted to Syria and we were quite new there and my husband decided to give a dinner for 30 or 40 people I can't remember the exact amount and it was in a hotel because I said I can can't do this. I can't do a dinner for 30. And at home, I mean, I can't hardly get food on the table for four. So he said, OK, we'll have it in a hotel. But then the president's son was killed in an accident and all hotel entertainment was banned. So we had to do it at home.

And I had a Filipina maid that I was training. And for some unknown reason, I decided to do Thai food, which I've never done in my life before. All the electrical implements, there was an outage electrical cut, and all the implements went wrong. I'd never used that tough stalk thing, lemongrass. I'd never used that. And I just cut it into big chunks and shoved it in. So I had to sieve all the sauces because it was like eating thistle. Anyway, the final thing, we were in total chaos. This poor maid and I, she was called Marcel, and suddenly an enormous rat appeared in the kitchen. And so Marcel took a broom and beat it to death in the kitchen. And the rat blood went all over all the dishes we were cooking.

And it was a nightmare. But my husband anaesthetised everybody with alcohol, and we somehow got some food on the table, and I think it was a success because everybody drank a lot. Just surviving, that sounds like a success, to be honest. We needed a drink after that. It was terrible. Just getting through that one. Fran, you are the party queen.

I mean, can a party happen anywhere with anyone? What's the optimal amount of people? There's five of us here tonight. Yeah, we could definitely have a party. Definitely. I think if you're feeling it, somebody, you know that feeling where you just feel a bit naughty and you can start... You've got to get it out. There's a group of you and you think, oh God, yeah, let's have a little drink. And then that little drink, then you start getting really silly and that leads to the party and that party never seems to stop for a couple of hours going on to maybe three hours and then you order more drink and more girlfriends

might arrive I think it's sometimes better when it's just girls those sort of parties and why is that ever better I don't know you it's when you all get together because, you know, most of the time we've all got really busy lives. We're all doing so many different things. And coming together, you sort of really relish that and you really appreciate that. And you get so excited. I think we...

Oh, my God, I'm so excited to see you. Drink, another one. Then all the stories come out of what you haven't, you know, what you've been up to. And then it just goes on yeah okay what do you think Bryony

I mean for Fran she says almost it could be even more special when it's just women together what do you reckon about that

I can just I could just have a party with anyone if I've got my gid on as I call it so you call it getting your gid on

I know and I'll start feeling giddy like yes when I wake up in the morning almost and I'll think this is dangerous and I'll it's like I feel it. So you call it getting giddy. I know, I know, and I'll start feeling giddy when I wake up in the morning almost and I'll think, this is dangerous. And it's like I feel it in my fingers,

I feel it in my toes. You get a kind of crackle. Yeah, and it's dangerous and then I know that it's not going to end well. Is this something you can wake up with on like a rainy Tuesday? Yeah. Or is this restricted to the weekend?

No, no, never. No, never. I never party at the weekend. What? Because I'm tired. Because I can't party during the week. It's much more fun to go out partying during the week because you can have a hangover.

You can be paid to have a hangover. I don't want, you know, I don't have to do my, I don't have to do childcare during the week because, like, the child's at school. And I can, you know, go and I shouldn't be saying this because I'm going to get the sack. But I think, I don't know, there's something I like. I like weekends.

I really like downtime. I like going for long walks. I like watching Strictly. I like, you know, I like the sort of takeaway. Eggs and brunch and the healthy stuff. Nesting, yeah. And during the week, I just, you know, that's when you get your gid on.

But I can get my gid on on a Monday night. It's, you know, it doesn't, it just, it's when it just hits me. Zing, what do you think about this? Are you a kind of weekday partier or is it weekends only for you? So I used to be a weekend partier. So I used to do, starting on Saturdays, going all the way into Sunday mornings. But now I'm a big fan of the Friday night party

where you just go straight from work. You maybe get a takeaway on the way over just to line your stomach, but not too much. And then you just go straight from work, you maybe get a takeaway on the way over just to line your stomach, but not too much. And then you just go for it. And then you wake up on Saturday at 2pm and you're like, I've still got the weekend. I could go to a British museum. Well, this is amazing.

You don't still have the weekend because it's 2pm. So you're so young, aren't you? Because this is the thing that also has changed now is that I used to sleep till like six in the evening. I would just, the whole day was gone. But actually, I find a hangover is much better once you just get up. Well, the ebb and flow. And obviously, it changes through the years, I think.

I certainly remember those kind of wild nights out like that myself. But I mean, to an extent, I suppose, many of you guys have combined work and partying professionally or it's been part of you know what you do for a living seeing you know you mentioned um those kind of big long nights out and I know that you cut your teeth at some very cool titles Dazed and Wonderland and Vice and you're now an editor at the equally cool digital channel Broadly has socializing been a big part of your professional life? Yes, well, I was just at a dazed party last night.

So they moved out from their old offices, which they've had since, I think, the 90s, into a very swanky office on the Strand, and they just had a lock-in. They just turned the old office into a club. And I remember walking in and thinking, God, this place works a lot better as a club than an office. And like you said, all you need is free booze, some good tunes, people playing Britney.

And it is funny because you think, you know, the coolest parties shouldn't be playing, you know, obvious stuff. Blur and like Pulp. But they really should because that's the stuff that everyone remembers. And that's what they think about when you think about their childhood, when they're younger, when they loved partying and loved being a bit naughty and having a drink. That's the sort of stuff that you want to listen to. I was going to say that I thought Blur and Pulp were cool.

It's gone all the way back in. They were cool when I was young. All right, well, tell me about your party preparation. I mean, how much is required, if it is for a party that you're doing on your own time and it's not necessarily kind of to do with work, it's just a night out. I mean, how long does it take to get ready?

Fran, what do you think? Oh, right. So as you saw my Halloween party. Huge Halloween bash. Pictures on the internet available. How many people? Well, it was my costume. The whole thing took six hours for the makeup.

And then the headdress was this huge, big sort of Spanish with roses. It was a kind of D'Adelmo. Yeah, and that took so long. And then the outfit, then getting into the outfit and the corset and then getting in the car to the other side of London. I mean, it was a real big set-up. I mean, obviously it doesn't take that long, usually. I'd give myself an hour, usually.

So if it was just on your own time and it wasn't going to be such a big production... On my own time, hairdressers in the day, get back. I don't really wear much make-up. Bath, that. When I'm in the bath, I plan my outfit. What about all the food and drink and all that? Not really food.

I don't do food before. I might have a quick smoothie, then out. And there wouldn't be food at the party? Depends what it is. No, not really. My lot don't really care about the food. They want to get straight to the drink. They've eaten before and they want to get straight to that dance floor,

straight on the cocktails. So, Fran, you can be door to door in an hour. Bridget, what do you think? How long do you leave yourself to get ready for a party? Oh, well, it's less and less as I've got older. I used to have a whole thing that I couldn't go out without my make-up, absolutely perfect, but now I'm in my 70s, so I don't really care. That's the one good thing about getting older.

No, I do care, but not that much. So, to some extent, is your party preparation, or was it when you were hosting a lot of the diplomatic dues, was it about anticipating who was going to be there, how you were going to need to interact with them and how you were going to have to behave? Yes, and if conversations got dangerous or difficult, how to steer them away.

I remember being at a party with the Russian ambassador and the American ambassador and the New Zealand ambassador and they all had a terrific row about nuclear testing in the Pacific. And I had to break that up somehow. Oh, my God. What did you do? I think I talked about something completely irrelevant and took their minds off it all. But once I talked about markets, because everybody was silent. And I thought I should talk about markets because everybody knows something about markets. So I started talk about markets because everybody knows something about markets. So I started talking about markets but nobody joined in and I went on and on about markets here, markets there. And then the Indian ambassador fell asleep

and then I started talking about vegetables in markets. I got completely hypnotised by this market. And then I started talking about potatoes and saying how you could get new potatoes or muddy baking. And the Indian ambassador woke up and said, fascinating, and then went back to sleep. So you probably wouldn't recommend veg chat. Not veg chat.

As a small talk topic. I never found the key to the chat. Oh, I was hoping you were going to be able to tell us that. There is a surefire subject to kind of open people up and get people talking. Mostly families, because diplomats have all left families at home so that was a pretty good source of chat okay briny tell me about your party preparation because you described that feeling of waking up and having this kind of crackling energy and just wanting to have a bit of a do and knowing you've got to get it out and that can

happen to you on a wednesday morning are you ready at the drop of a hat can you just turn it around and yeah I'm I'm died I'm not high maintenance at all you can't see me now but I'm I'm quite I can I can like do my makeup in the dark in the cab I'm no problem okay so I'm not uh it's for me it's more of a sort of like uh my preparation oh I like what we call we call we actually we had our office Christmas party the other night and we went on the pre-lash, as we called it. The pre-lash? Yeah. So before we went to the party, we went to a pub. And actually, and again, I'm going to get sacked, it was better than the party.

Because you kind of, you know, you've got the gear, you're anticipating, it's all exciting. But also I think I always, my planning is if we're going to have a party, if we're going to go out, I want it to be a place that this is, when I have a drink, I like to have a cigarette, okay? So shoot me. I'm not condoning it. It's not good for you. But I do like it.

And people, some people do. You know, like people tend to, if they are going to smoke, they're going to do it when they've had a few. I don't smoke, but I'm always outside with the smokers because often that's where the interesting conversations happen. That's where the fun is. When people plan for parties at places that you're not allowed to take your drink out with a cigarette,

that's it, stone, game over, I'm off. That's amazing. I was just going to ask, Fran, you are Britain's most famous party planner. Tell me about how you get a gig like that. I mean, how did it start for you? It sounds like a dream job. It's, you know, like everything,

it always sounds much better than it is. You know, I'm not out every night. I don't go to loads and loads of parties because it's actually work for me. So at parties, you can't drink at your own parties when you're working for big clients. How did I get the job years and years ago i was a dj manager okay and i looked after a lot of djs and it's just sort of organically happened that you look after djs they're playing at parties you go to

see them play you take your friends with you and people say oh you came last week to so and so do you think all your friends want to come back to this other party that your djs are playing at the next week and we're like yeah yeah another free party with loads of free drink yeah and it just sort of organically happened like that really and you know then just sort of 15 years down the line and you're doing it slightly different and on a higher sort of level and with budgets and great brands and great magazines and interesting people. And you travel the world and it's fun. I mean, it looks like fun. That is fun.

That's part of the point. And your job is to kind of show that. And it's never the same. What's the most exotic one you've ever done? Brazil. We do a lot of Amphar, which is an amazing charity. I participate in helping that every year in Sao Paulo. And we've been doing that for five years.

And I mean, some of these dos are incredibly lavish. What would you say is the most elaborate party that you've ever thrown? And how long did it take to organise? Well, I can actually organise a party in a couple of days in a week. Yeah, I mean, that's my sort of skill because it's just calling, getting things organised. But I mean, the lavish ones are probably, I mean, obviously people's birthday parties,

private birthday parties, which was Riccardo Tisci from Givenchy. I organised his 40th in Ibiza and Kanye sang and we had the biggest DJs from around the world playing and everyone turned up. From Zac Efron to Justin Bieber to all the Kardashians. That was mega. But then the Amphar ones in Brazil are really big fashionista parties with Marc Jacobs and Matt and Marcus

who are really famous photographers, Naomi Campbell, Kate Moss, people and that's in a private property where the guy has his own zoo in his house but he lends it to the charity and he's an architect so you're sitting there and you can see

these amazing exotic birds and lemurs and llamas it's just beyond amazing so the sky's the limit by the sounds of it. It can be. Yeah, it can be. I'm lucky I can choose the ones I want to do. So I can say, oh, yeah, my God, that's going to be amazing.

I really want to be involved in that and maybe even go after that job and pitch for that. OK. But there's nobody really that sort of does what... I'm going to say that and then everyone's going to say, I do what you do. I think I choose my things very carefully. So it's a bespoke service, really?

Yeah, yeah. Client to client. Yeah, yeah, it's definitely bespoke. Would you be the person who rings Beyoncé to ask her to sing? Yeah. Yeah. Have you had to ring Beyoncé to ask her to sing? I've rung much higher and bigger and famous girls than that, really.

And men. I mean, in the one in Amphar, we have Cher perform. Mary Jane Blum. Cher, to me, is like the goddess. She's above all. And so beautiful and so kind and so generous.

Also best Twitter feed out there. Oh, she is just amazing and comes on stage and so generous for the charity. And, you know, so people like that, when you meet people like that, Ricky Martin we have. Oh, LaVita Marica. Oh, his body and him dancing on stage, Mary Jane.

They've had everyone playing there, but Cher to me. Cher was an all-time highlight. I was just like that, oh, my gosh, you're just a goddess. Bryony uh you combined work with partying when you became a 3am girl yes and i mean what was that like for you at first i've read um your account of it in in your first book and and at first it kind of seemed like a dream job and then it got a bit much i hated it i was really young i was 21 and um it just like it wasn't for me because I like going to parties.

I like being at parties, but I don't like working at parties. And I was not really very good at going up to like celebrities and sort of, you know, asking them questions. I saw this is this is rubbish. I don't want to do this. I quit after three months. I was like the world's worst 3 a.m. girl. But then 3 a.m. girl. It was a gossip column on the Mirror for a while. three months I was like the world's worst 3am girl um but then 3am girl it was they were it was a gossip column on the mirror um for a while and I went anyway and I went back to the telegraph and then I um I but then I kind of combined partying and work in another way in which that

they sort of one of the worst things that could have happened to me really is that they made basically gave me a column to write about being a single girl about town i was a sort of like co-op version of carrie bradshaw and um that is unfair on yourself no i'm joking but um and so i legitimately was allowed i would like i would go past i mean i don't think i would never write about the really kind of like out there stuff um because I didn't want to get sacked because this is the theme running through my conversation um but I was you know I was out till six I'd sometimes just come straight into work and because I would then I would turn I would turn my escapades into like witty copy I was always like the kind of performing monkey you know what did oh my god I can't believe you did that kind of thing oh my god you've got to write about this. So I kind of legitimately felt I had, I was kind of being paid to party

and come up with hilarious anecdotes. Yeah. And, you know, and I'm still a bit like that. I still kind of feel I have to, you know, go to a party and perform. And was there a point where you knew that it had got a bit much and that the partying wasn't fun? It wasn't, you weren't having a good time. I think, I think my 30th birthday and I was snorting lines of cocaine off a car bonnet

because I'd lost, locked myself out of my house and I'd invited the entire pub back to my flat. And, and then we were up. I mean, I just, I, yeah, I, I, yeah, I developed a bit of a drug habit in my 20s, which I've written about and I'm quite frank about it. And when you're trying to amuse other people, but you're hurting yourself doing that, that's no longer a good party. That's when you have to leave the party. And, you know, as you say, you've written very frankly about that

and your kind of transition out of that. And how does it work when it actually comes to having fun again, though? Like that party persona that you, I i think describe as the life and soul and someone who's kind of always willing to do whatever to be the almost make the make the joke happen you know and be the butt of it if necessary yes i mean i'm still i still do that but i don't do it as often i still go out and have a laugh i'll still you know i mean i won't go out and have a laugh. I'll still, you know, I mean, I won't go out and snort cocaine off anything. I'm glad to hear that. But I still go out and I like a drink and I like a party.

I just don't allow myself to do it as often as I... Because I partied so hard in my 20s and my early 30s, I quite like being boring now. So that for me is the party, is going home and watching box sets with my husband. Sounds really lame. But my husband and I are really good at having parties at home to me that's that's just fine we sit in that we love to sit in the garden there's nothing we love more even in the winter bleep midwinter than sitting in the garden drinking and chain smoking we have

like parties for two yeah and those are my favorite because actually it's like you know we can we don't have to get a cab home seeing you were last night at a party, you were at a party in a building that was about to be demolished. I think it's fair to say that you are still very much out there and can put us in touch with what the young people are doing on the panel today. So tell me a bit about that, because one of the things that I keep reading

is that young people are going out less and less. And I'm sure broadly, you know, you've covered this and read about this, this kind of idea of um you know millennials as being quite isolated in their little digital bubbles and not actually socializing in the way that you know people of my age and older might have so I guess the myth is that you know we're too busy snapchatting each other to actually go out and interact and speak with other people let alone go to parties actually I mean I kind of think there's a function of it getting a lot more expensive to actually go out and, you know, have a couple of drinks.

Like a drink now costs so much more than, you know, when you were my age. And for the record, I'm 28. I feel like everyone's referring to me like I'm 15. But I'm not. I'm just, I'm not a very advanced teenager, although I would like to be. So I think that everyone sort of thinks

that millennials don't go out as much. But I think what they do is they sort of spend money on big things. So, for instance, they might spend loads of money going to Glastonbury and having an amazing time and needing a month to recover from it. They're less likely to go out and they're less likely to, you know, go out every single weekend to get on the lash because getting on the lash is so much more expensive now and also i mean gentrification and we know i mean i'm sure fran knows all about this that you know clubs are closing left right and center all over the country it's a it's a big problem in the the nighttime industry and all the smaller clubs that you might have you know gone on a friday night too and you know you think i don't want to go to a massive

club i don't want to go to fabric or club, I don't want to go to Fabric or something, I just fancy a little dance somewhere. Those clubs are shutting down now in enormous numbers. Neighbourhood clubs, which used to be part of the course. Why are they closing? Well, I mean, I think it's a combination of the council. If you live in a residential area and you've got 20 clubs down the main strip, that's terrible news for you.

And the council also has to find some way to make money off it. So, you know, they make licensing a lot harder to acquire. It's a nationwide problem. It's quite an interesting one. And there are a few different factors, certainly gentrification and, as Zing says, you know, kind of councils and people's particular kind of legislation.

But there is a behavioural shift as well, I think. And, you know, the idea of going to superclubs and the kind of superclubs of the 90s, which we were in the old front, that's gone, right? That's gone. There's nothing like that, except in, I suppose, like Ibiza and places like that. They're still going there. But even they're closing down, aren't they?

Well, Space has, but, I mean, you've still got your big superclubs. I think it's really sad. I think it's... I love going to clubs that are speakeasy, those sort of 100, 200 venue type clubs for me or everything. When you're all in one room and you're in the round, you can see what everyone's up to. You're dancing, you're chatting, you're going round the room. That, to me, is my best night out.

I love that. Zing, tell me a little bit about what the coolest night out in London is at the minute. What kind of party is it? Are we talking... We'll go there afterwards. If the big superclubs are over, or at least, you know, there aren't so many of them, what are people doing?

I've heard about these like big box raves that kind of go on in disused, out of town, you know, warehouse shops and things like that. Yeah, so Vice did a documentary about these illegal raves and I think a lot of much younger people are going out to those raves because you know it's in they already know they're doing something bad so they might as well do

something worse. So there's an apocryphal I love this story basically a girl tried to climb over a fence to get into a London warehouse party, it was a squat rave. She tore off her finger and left it dangling on top of the fence. And obviously this being 2015...

Party this way, that's not good, is it? Obviously this being 2015, everyone took pictures of the finger. So there were loads of pictures of this girl's finger just like hanging on the top of this fence. But apparently she just continued partying. And I want to find this girl because for me she is like she is a goddess and she's able to continue the three-fingered girl so i think there's a you know there's a healthy culture of people still trying to put on illegal raves in warehouses.

This is very big, yeah. Did the finger have nail varnish on it? Oh, no. They should have fingerprinted it, don't you think? Yes. How could she get a phone to work again if she couldn't have her finger? Is this like, can we find these pictures on social media?

Yeah, I think you could. We'll look it up after. OK, yeah. I, I think you can. We'll look it up after. OK, yeah. I'm feeling a bit sick. Bridget, I mean, we're talking a bit about generational differences. I mean, tell me a little bit about cultural differences, because as you mentioned earlier, I think you lived in six countries and on four continents

over the course of 20 years. Yes. How different was it socialising in, say, Kazakhstan, the Gambia, Barbados? Well, of course, the diplomatic community remains the same pretty much everywhere you are. But I just wanted to say that I've never been to a club. The last club that I went to was Annabelle's in the 60s, where you didn't even dance separately.

I mean, you were dancing as a couple. It's still going. Is it? Yeah. Oh, is it really? It's amazing. And sort of, you know, and you danced. And I loved that dancing. It sort of got closer and closer until you were dancing cheek a couple. It's still going. Is it? Yeah. And sort of, you know, and you danced and I loved that dancing. So it got closer and closer until you were dancing cheek to cheek. I was

going to say that sounds like. And then I disappeared off the scene. But in my day, we used to drink a lot. I mean, we drank a hell of a lot. And I can remember driving across Hyde Park and closing one eye so that I didn't see everything double because there was not much legislation. I mean, drink and driving. Nobody even thought about it. We thought it was probably quite good for you to drink and drive. I don't know. We thought smoking was good for you. My mother used to say, oh, you're looking a bit tired, darling.

Have a cigarette and a gin and tonic. How amazing. I wish people would say that now. And so I smoked, but then I gave up smoking and then I joined this, followed my diplomat husband. So diplomatic entertaining is pretty much the same. But then in Kazakhstan, my daughter had a birthday when she'd come out to stay with us and we went to some weird club.

That was a club, but it wasn't a dancing club. It was some sort of eating club. And the cabaret was a naked man in a loincloth and people threw darts at him. Oh! And, I mean, they were going into his skin. Any part of him? He turned his back.

Oh, my God. He was a sort of strong man. That was an S&M club, I think. That was an S&M. And it was just absolutely terrible. It was like going to a bullfight with a human instead of a bull. My word. It was horrible. I think my daughters have regretted that birthday party ever since. It was like going to a bullfight with a human instead of a bull. My word. It was horrible.

I think my daughters have regretted that birthday party ever since. It was really quite horrible. You've seen some things, haven't you? Yes. How old was she? Was she 12? I think she was... I was going to say she was about 22.

We came for Mr Wimpy. This is not what we expected. Yeah. No, I think she was about 22. But all of us were creeped out by the whole thing. It was so horrible. And what about these days? I mean, as you mentioned, you're in your 70s now, I think.

Do you still kind of like to throw a party? Is that something that you do? No. My idea of a party now, my idea of a really enjoyable evening is pretty much like you wanting to watch a box set with my husband. Like Brian. Because these parties took up so much time. I read somewhere that the British ambassador to Rome

and his wife had not had an evening in together by themselves for three years. That's the degree of party in a big embassy. That never happened to me because we were not posted to Rome or any huge capital cities. But I think my idea of a really nice party is six people that I like cooking a dinner and sitting around the table and having a chat. OK.

That's my idea. We're sort of a dinner party. We're doing the same thing, yeah. Fran, for you, that would be perfect? Maybe a bit more. I like... Eight people. Yeah.

Eight to 20 girls getting very raucous, you know, rolling all over the floor, having a real good time, but lots of alcohol. Can I come to your next party? Yes you can. Definitely. I'm not coming because I do want to roll on the floor. I'm buying this plus one. You don't have to roll on the floor, you can sit in the back. You're going to sit in a chair with arms.

Can I just raise the idea of party anxiety because obviously, you know, around the table tonight I have some very accomplished partiers but not everybody finds it easy. Some people get very anxious in the run-up to a party. Is that anything that any of you can relate to or have experienced? Yes, yes.

Yeah. Fran? I've got friends that get very anxious, and what they do is they say things, oh, yeah, I know that party's coming, but, yeah, I'm not going to drink. No, no, I'm not going to drink at that party. And actual fact, I'm leaving at 10 o'clock. So at 10 o'clock, just tell me I've got to go. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm not going to drink at that party. And actual fact, I'm leaving at 10 o'clock. So at 10 o'clock, just tell me I've got to go.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, cool. 10 o'clock, they're paralytic in some corner. You're telling them to leave. I'm not leaving. I'm not going to leave at 10. I never said I was leaving. I said, you've had the worst anxiety about this party for months and months. And now you're not going, no, I'm having the best time of my life.

I think the more you pre-empty something, you've just got to let yourself go with these things. OK, so it's just about kind of trying to... Relax into it, relax into it. Singh, what do you think? If everything gets very bad and overwhelming, just hide in a toilet store. I've done that before.

Just say the toilet store is my safe space. As long as there are multiple toilet stores and you don't have people banging on the door, and you just sit down on the toilet seat and you just like meditate. Take a minute. Take a minute to gather your thoughts and then come out.

I've hidden in a toilet store for about 20 minutes just because the party was too empty and I was too anxious to go out and try and be that person. I've done that at work's dues. At like kind of big functions every now and again I will sometimes retreat and just have a minute. My worst party was a fancy dress party.

Years and years ago, before I married, we had to go dressed as historical figures and I went as Mary, Queen of Scots, in a sort of big black velvet dress. Quite elaborate, yeah. And because I do what your friend does, which is I'm so nervous about the party that I drink a lot at the beginning

and then get completely legless. And at this party, which is I'm so nervous about the party that I drink a lot at the beginning and then get completely legless. And at this party, which was given by my assistant at the Sunday Times, which was so embarrassing because she was years younger than me, I went into the lavatory to throw up because I had too much to drink. And then I could hear all the people in the lavatory and they were all friends. And I knew if I came out of the lavatory, they'd all heard me throwing up. So I just stayed in the lavatory for the rest of the night.

Dressed as Mary Queen of Scotland. And then at about two o'clock in the morning when everybody had gone home, the party was on a boat, which also helped to make her sick. Awful. Awful. I've had a terrible experience at a boat party. All experiences on boats are terrible. And then I had to flit along the embankment dressed as Mary Queen of Scotland

at two o'clock in the morning trying to find a taxi home. Oh, Bridget, dignity. Always dignity. I mean, what about party no-nos? Obviously that kind of covers some of the bad experiences. Are there party crimes that should never be committed? And if so, what are they? Bryony? I don't think... I think that all... All is fair.

..all party crimes you can pardon because we've all been there and I think that thing of, you know, that thing of waking up and going, oh God, did I say that? Did I do that? And I think everyone is waking up thinking that. You know, I mean, often I was the only one who did do that thing,

who threw up or who blacked out or who, I don't know, did something unspeakable to someone. Not unspeakable, sorry. Yes, unspeakable. You know, but I think, you know, in a party, it's like you're excused because it's, you know... So it's the circle of trust, essentially.

Yeah, yeah. Stuff happens. It's almost like saying what goes on the road stays on the road. I think at the party, you shouldn't really discuss something bad after. You just want to discuss all the good stuff. And just keep that upbeat. Yeah, you totally let people off.

If you were going to write a field guide to party survival for a Radio 4 Late Night Woman's Hour listener who is in the middle of the slings and arrows of the outrageous party season and just wants to get through it, what tips would you give? How best to survive these do's and prosper? I knew you'd be good at that. Well, look after yourself. Like, don't, you know, just do look after yourself.

Eat before you go. If you're not going to eat there, always just shove a sandwich down you. I think that's the best tip ever. Yes, it is. Eating before lining your stomach yeah and but also then the next day get up and go for a brisk walk and just look up do a bit of oh sounds so sanctimonious don't i do a bit of exercise no not at all i think i think i think you know that phrase blowing the cobwebs out like I think that is really, I mean, I'm quite hungover now.

So, you know, tomorrow I will go for a run. OK. Zing, you mentioned earlier when we were talking about the idea of waking up at 2pm and more or less rolling straight into the British Museum. Is that your project? That's never happened to me. That was sort of more of a wishful thinking on my part. OK.

The last time I woke up at 2pm I ordered two deliveries both for myself and then when I looked into the bag and there were two sets of cutlery I was like, oh god you don't understand anything about me at all. My advice is drink water and I don't know if it's just me

not being 21 again but now I've started to realise that when I wake up after a night out, I just look like someone's just sucked the moisture from my skin. And it's not pleasant. I think that actually helps to ward off the hangover. If you just drink a small glass of water between actual drinks. Okay. And then a bottle of water when you get back in.

Massive rehydration. I love all the advice, but when you're five vodka and tonics in to the wind on a table it's Motown night the DJ's playing your song pace, pace, pace is the thing isn't it you've got to pace yourself

but whether you can pace yourself is another thing easier said than done Fran I know that you're also you have the yin and yang thing going in that you are a fan of a detox afterwards like you think that it's quite important to observe the ebb and flow and not try to kind of stay with it and party all the time i mean it's only happened because of the years of partying and i've realized that it's got to be a yin and yang you've got to if you want to have fun you've got to look after yourself and another good thing

for a hangover is a b12 shot so you can get these people to come to your house that give you intravenous hang on what intravenous intravenous b12 people yeah that drip how expensive are they they're a hundred and something pounds and you go online and you can get them to your house and they come they're Are they called doctors? They're proper doctors and nurses. I forget the company because I can't obviously advertise on the radio. I think best not. Yeah, but they're amazing.

So you feel bad, the lady comes over to your house, inserts the needle, you sit there for ten minutes and you feel as a new person. I thought you were just going to be drinking juice and doing a bit of yoga. I didn't think a random lady off the internet was going to come and give you an injection. I don't think I've ever done that. It's absolutely amazing and I get it done quite regularly.

Heavens above. Bridget? I would never have an injection from a random lady on the internet. I think I would just like to stay in bed a bit longer and not go to the British community. But I think somebody touched earlier on the sort of guilt you feel. If you've got a really bad hangover, you just want to cry and think of what a bad person you are.

That is true. It's the terrible kind of... I'm thinking of, obviously, it being Christmas, The Apartment, the greatest Christmas film of all time. Oh, God, amazing. Shirley MacLaine's hangover in that, where she's just in's in the depths in the doldrums yes so maybe getting out of the house is key maybe maybe it is key yes absolutely key

do not stay under your duvet under the duvet the shame spiral you're lying you're basically lying in your own sweat and self-loathing and I and i'm just i you know however bad it feels just get up and fling it aside embrace the day and you know it's probably no one died hopefully that's what they all say mantra nobody has died okay that is such a good thing because it's why feel guilt about having a good time you do so. You do. It's a kind of free flow thing. It's for your Anglo sex and something you're up to. Exactly. We feel so guilty about having fun

and enjoying ourselves. And on a serious note, actually, sometimes women face more disapproval than men. Oh, absolutely. Because they're overdoing that, don't they?

I used to get it all the time. Oh, Bryony, if you carry on like this, you'll never get a husband. What? Well, I've carried on like that and I never have you know you probably have more fun oh yeah and i i do think it's women you know you know i always i always think those pictures that they run in newspapers around the christmas party season of people you know on the streets of various towns. With no plates on my table.

Bench girl, I think. Do you know what? I dread one day opening the paper and realising I am bench girl. That's when. I think we've all been bench girl. I'm proud of that. I'm proud of being bench girl. Maybe taking ownership of bench girl is key.

I feel bad admitting this, but I've never felt guilty. Oh, I love hearing that. You don't. I feel paranoid that I feel bad admitting this, but I've never felt guilty. Oh, I love hearing that. You don't. I feel paranoid that I've said something wrong, but I've never felt guilty. I don't know why. I just feel like no one should be forced to feel bad

because they've had some fun. Exactly. I wholeheartedly agree. I mean, with that in mind, a happy new year, and thank you very much, my wonderful guests, Fran Cutler, Bryony Gordon, Bridget Keenan and Zing Sing. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Thank you so much. It's been fun. That was really fun. I feel like a drink now. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.