Woman's Hour - Late Night Woman's Hour: Home

Episode Date: October 27, 2016

Lauren Laverne and guests discuss home. What does home mean to you? Is domesticity a joy or a drudgery? And why has the Scandinavian art of Hygge become the word of the winter? Is it genius marketing or emotional need? Joining Lauren are:Trine Hahnemann, Chef and author of 'Scandinavian Comfort Food - Embracing the Arts of Hygge'.Susie Orbach, psychotherapist and author.Dr Rachel Hurdley, Research Fellow in the School of Social Science at Cardiff UniversityHelen Zaltzman, podcaster and crafter.This programme is available in two versions. The long version is podcast only and is available by clicking the MP3 button on the Late Night Woman's Hour programme page or subscribing to the Woman's Hour daily podcast. The shorter broadcast version will be available on Iplayer shortly after transmission on Friday 28th October.Presenter: Lauren Laverne Producer: Eleanor GarlandGuest: Susie Orbach Guest: Rachel Hurdley Guest: Trine Hahnemann Guest: Helen Zaltzman.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

This month on Late Night Woman's Hour, winter is coming. Without wishing to get too Game of Thrones about it, the nights are drawing in and so are more of us. Our subject this month is home. Are you creating a nest to hibernate for the winter? What does home mean to you? And why has the Scandinavian art of hygge become the word of the season? Genius marketing or emotional need?

Joining me tonight, podcaster and crafter Helen Zaltzman. Hello, Helen. Hello. Rachel Hurdley, Research Fellow in the School of Social Science at Cardiff University. Welcome. Hello. Susie Orbach, psychotherapist and author. Hello to you. Hello. And Trina Harneman, chef and author. Welcome, Trina. Thank you. Thank you very much for joining me all. So Hugger is the latest confusingly spelled domestic trend to hit the UK imported from Scandinavia. You've probably seen it written down and it's spelled H-Y-G-G-E. Should you wish to read about it further you currently have over 100 volumes to choose from on one popular book website.

There's Hugger Home Décor, hygge food, hygge parenting, even a hygge colouring book, which I presume you have to do by a fire wearing a pair of cosy socks. Trina, tell me about this word hygge. We keep being told that it's untranslatable. Can you have a go for us as a Dane? The hygge, I think it's true in a way

because when you have a word that is so absorbed in your culture and your daily life, it's kind of odd to have to translate it all of a sudden to the whole world. So I think that's where the Danes are right now. We're a bit in shock. What is this about? Why? What's going on? Everybody's asking. Yes. And it's a word we use all the time, every day for a lot of situations. It is a bit more than cosinets because it is such a part of the way we live.

So it's fundamental to Danish culture and it is in all of the aspects. Can you give me some examples? Like what can be hygge? Obviously, we know that kind of food and an atmosphere and in a place can be hygge. What about people? Can they be hygge? Yeah, if they're in a certain mood, they can, but they can also not be.

But hygge is about setting the stage of how things should be. Okay. It's a social norm. It's a convention. So therefore, it's more than cosiness. So it also has some negative sides to it. It's not only getting together. And hygge is all year round.

It's not only in the winter. But of course, when it's not only getting together and Hygge is all year round it's not only in the winter but of course when it's translated it seemed like to be the thing with the candle and the food and the hot chocolate and all these you know lovely things that we all want in our lives but it is a way of setting the tone of being together of of hanging out and Danes are very much into have some pleasant kind of togetherness, if you could say, every day. But can I ask, if you say you use the word several times a day, would you apply it to a sensibility,

a person beyond an atmosphere? I mean, how do you get to say it five times a day? Because you say it like, you say, that was very hyggly. And that was a hyggly time. He was a hyggly person. You could say that, but you wouldn't say that as much. Okay, that would be more unusual.

No, not really. But to be a hyggly person is something, that's a hyggly person. That's something, he's like, if I think about a hyggly man, he would be kind of a little bit big he would feel safe he would feel somebody you'd trust you know it's like it's so interesting Trina your book is about hygge but it's mainly a cookbook and it's about comfort eating and Danish comfort food to what extent is food a part of hygge? Danes never get together without you know eating and drinking something. Coffee is

our main thing but of course alcohol comes into it at some point. When you meet a Dane that will will not ask you how you are. We don't when we start to you know travel the world we are always very confused when people ask you how you are because we will actually answer and that's the wrong thing to do. So what we would say is hi please come in would you like a cup of coffee our first greeting will be to invite you to enjoy something with us okay so there's a very big social element to all this then that's it that's a huge part of it yeah okay but it is also about leveling us out it has a very egalitarian thing to it okay danes is not very big on hierarchy we are very big of making sure we're all at the same you know level we don't really like people to

stick out so therefore hukik is also like the social norm that set the stage for now we're all sitting here being equal having a great time it's like a socialist coziness there were a lot of jumpers there are a lot of jumpers in that particular political nook as far as i'm aware helen no wonder it's popular now is it actually inclusive because the sense i get is that it can be a bit exclusionary you know you're with old friends or you're with family because the whole idea is that being comfortable, being familiar. Would you invite a stranger in? Could you as a stranger kind of feel hoogly? Yeah, I think you could.

That's a very interesting question in the sense that Danes are not very good at inviting strangers in. It takes a long time to get really close, I think, to Danes. But if you do, it's for life. Once you're in, you're in. So, Rachel, you're asking there about something that you've written about, I think, is the Scandiwegian dream. What I have written about is, I suppose,

the ubiquitousness of Ikea in people's homes and how somehow Ikea and Scandawija and then that's kind of extended vaguely into ideas of Danishness and now hygge how the how British culture you know sort of started off quite simply with a couple of tea lights on the mantelpiece and now it seems to be kind of expanding into this vague you know all all we know about skanduija is that it's kind of a bit north of germany and it's not france and we're kind of going into tiger now the danish well we call it the danish pound shop but it's far more than a Danish pound shop. And the way in which British culture, we're kind of going out and getting all these bits and bobs of the Scandinavian dream. So the accoutrement of this kind of imagined lifestyle. What is the appeal, do you think?

Susie Orbach, I mean, the lure of the domestic here is very strong, obviously. What are we looking for? What are we searching for? In a way, we're in a period that's a bit like the 50s it's a kind of retrenchment of the home or the domestic and of femininity in a particular form at a moment when we've actually got a world crisis going on and which we're encouraged to see the outside as incredibly dangerous and rather insecure. And so we've got both the democratisation of we can all have the glamorous house, we can create an internal house that looks like it's for display, that we then move into so we feel like a proper person and we feel like a sophisticate in this

world that's so damn confusing. Okay, so it kind of exists in opposition to a wider context of which we're both part of but we're also individualizing except we're actually with the mass marketing of design which is no bad thing but it's we're all at the same time curating ourselves in the same way if you like so curating ourselves yes this is the key word, isn't it? And digital culture is a big part of this because I wanted to do this programme initially. I had a conversation with a writer recently and he was talking about hookah and the trends, the trend for hookah kind of coming to the UK

and he sees it as a reaction to digital culture. But it is and it isn't, isn't it? Because at the same time when you're preparing your food, you take a snapshot. I don't think it's called a snapshot anymore, but you take a photo, you might not put it on Instagram, but you might say to your friend, look how gorgeous. So that even you yourself are engaging in the act of showing and of displaying and displaying actually to yourself as much as any as to anyone else so that is digital so it's both playing with digital culture and trying to manage something that's

particularly personal intimate it's very interesting isn't it it's almost a zen meditation as well like if you if you if you craft something or make something without instagramming it does it exist it's the kind of new tree falling in the woods. Unexamined life is not worth living, but it's a public examination. Helen Saltzman, you are a crafter. What do you craft? Things that I don't know how to make, I suppose. I think that's what's interesting to me. At the moment, my time is very limited for doing anything fun, which is annoying.

So usually I craft things if someone needs an unusual item they can't buy. Such as? Come on. My brother needed some dolls of the cricketers WG Grace and Frank Spofforth. And you can't buy those in the toy shops, it seems. Inexplicably. I know. Hard to find. Also, there's not really a pattern for either of those cricketers online.

Those particular cricketing dolls are, yeah. No, so I thought, well, only one way to figure this out is to jump right in. What materials did you use? Well, I used an old sheet for the cricket whites. I made a nice moss-stitched beard for WG. They had felt faces. I think the hats were probably felt as well. One of them was known for being very smart, Fred Spofforth.

I learnt a lot as well whilst making him. He was a very dapper Australian cricketer, and so he always used to wear a tie. So he had a nice ribbon tie in the appropriate colours. This seems to me to be very much in counterpoint to your professional life, which is as a podcaster, you're there editing, you're writing, using screens a lot, I would imagine. So does it feel like a contrast when you're crafting?

The fundamental thing that I enjoy about it is the same, which is at the end there is something that didn't exist at the beginning um but yes the the acts of it are quite different I like the fact that there's this physical engagement when I'm crafting with materials but in both cases I taught myself how to do things I didn't know how to do them and there are these engineering problems in different forms in the podcasting and in the crafting but it's a shame that the podcasting has ruined my crafting time i think because who knows what uh what dead men i could be making effigies of now if i but is it required that it be soft materials i mean is that the

definition of craft or or could it involve this metal or um wood yes yes i absolutely think yes you could have a bit of an old car as part of your crafting wood can definitely be for sure i know wood can but i'm trying to think about what materials you might exclude where are the limits this has got to do with huger but anyway does it involve tools is it to do with the tools you mean apart from my hands i think you know soldering irons yeah i, I think it's small-scale manufacture. In answer to your question about materials, I'm wearing some earrings that I bought off Etsy, which is the website where handicraft is,

effectively sell their stuff, and they're made out of concrete. Right. They are fabulous. I think concrete can count as craft, right? For sure, yeah. I haven't experimented with it yet. So, Helen, I mean, this is all about creating something that is unique, it's individual, it's handmade, it's homemade.

And, you know, presumably there is a kind of connection between craft and hookah. I mean, can you see the appeal, Helen? There's certainly a personalisation inherent in it. If you're talking about people's homes being so much more populated by IKEA products, then the crafted objects are the antithesis of that in a way. They're these unique objects. And that imprint of individuality. If someone has an object that is a one-off, even if I'd made 100 WG Greystones,

they'd all probably vary a little from each other. Trina, the Danish perspective on hygge that you've brought us so far seems to be very kind of social. As you say, it's egalitarian, it's inclusive. Is this idea of kind of handmade, homemade skill central to it as well? Both yes and no. I don't think necessarily it's more about actually creating that atmosphere yeah but but it could be in in the sense that i think hygge leads to some kind of authenticity that is also what people are seeking out and i think that's one of the real

reason why it's it's on the agenda now is is you know the danes being the happiest people on the planet the scandinavian welfare model everybody looking at right now. I mean, the whole idea that we actually think that the world is on fire, more or less out there, and there's so many things going on, we don't understand. And people feel more anxious, and they're looking at other countries and see how are they figuring it out. And you can say about the Scandinavian countries, we have actually figured some things out especially when it comes to equality better balance between home and work and and things like that and I think the hook it ties into that Susie suppose the thing that always impresses me from the outside is the fact that

you've got a social contract that's about contribution and about engagement what what I wanted to know is in your as a cook is there competition in the cooking or is it just relished and enjoyed that the individuality of your food prep home cooking is a big thing still everyday home cooking I'm not only talking about you know people going out on Saturday and shop for four hours and cook for six hours I'm talking about the daily meal and Trina you are you advocate kind of cooking communally together, right? You're a big advocate of that. Yeah. Why? Because I believe it brings you together. It starts a conversation about all the important things in life. And even if you can't speak the same language, you can always

cook together. And this collective element that you're describing, do you think that's missing from the kind of lifestyle press version of hygge that that we're getting over here rachel you know you kind of think we're not we're missing some elements of it i guess what i'm concerned about in a way is you know books have been written about how ikea has become emblematic of the modern and it's that very conscious branding and appropriating of artifacts without any of the history the cultural value any idea of the symbolic meaning behind it you know that people go out and get the books and kind of maybe talk about them um i i actually saw there are some slippers being advertised as hooglick for 60 quid. Which is the antithesis of what you're talking about.

Be honest, how much did your slippers cost? I still wear the socks that my grandmother knitted for me. Now that is, that's serious hookup, right? Yes, that's serious hookup. That's doing it right. OK, the 60 pound slippers, not so much for you. IKEA store is really weird. I just want to say that that's the only place where I never, ever go with my husband

because we would have a divorce. I mean, I have a very, very paradoxically kind of relationship with IKEA because I was brought up with it and I don't get the whole idea of it. Sorry. Is it all the capitals? It can feel quite shouty to me. Everything's in capitals. It's like, whoa, OK, settle down.

I do have to say that I knew that my first marriage had come to an end when we were ordering a wardrobe in Bristol, like here. It's a great book type. Rachel, it is. It also feels like the beginning of a film. Yeah. OK, maybe not Disney.

Definitely with a happy ending at the end. I mean, Rachel, let's talk a bit then about the meaning of home because it's obviously culturally and historically specific we often describe home as a sanctuary but apparently that's a relatively modern idea when does that kind of idea come in the conscious creation of home as sanctuary came about towards the end of the 18th century, really it's tied up with industrialisation, profit, you know, Protestant spirit of capitalism. Enterprise. Enterprise.

That somehow there had to be an other to that. And that was consciously created, the angel of the hearth, by white Anglo-Saxon Protestant men with, you know, the woman at home and her duty was to look after her family and to exhibit virtue, purity, piety and domesticity. I'm not doing very well on any of those.

I'm just... Checklist, fail, fail. I mean... So before that, you're saying that there wasn't this kind of separation between the private sphere and the public sphere in the same way, this kind of gendered separation? The change wasn't sudden. And obviously, industrialisation happened at different times in different places. But if you think about the early modern era, the workshop could be in the back of the house. It could be in the cellar. You might have the loft above, you know, for the silk weaving. 1700s, 1800s?

Yeah, and then what happened was as, you know, manufacturing stopped being craft, really, and became industry, you start to have this split. And whereas previously, everything had been tangled together. And as a woman, you were in charge of the house and household management, but that was actually quite a complex business. That gradually, you know, there's this move out to the suburbs and your man has kind of fled to the city to have this quite masculine existence and then comes home at night to the little woman who's made this sanctuary of religious virtuous domestic perfection so that's a kind of archetype for a kind of 20th century archetype where are we at now and how are things changing it's interesting to get back to what Susie was talking about you know um that that what what happened with the first and in particular the

second world wars was women were going out to work also for a number of reasons none of which are absolutely certain family size had shrunk so people were just having to it was respectable to have two children rather than sort of acres of them spreading up into the attics and down to the cellars and then after the second world war particularly in north america and in britain this idea of having the wife at home looking after her man became all entangled with patriotism and so these women suddenly found themselves back at home in the suburbs probably necking valium when that came along you could smell it off them yeah really you could smell the farmer on the women so susie you're talking about what i think betty freedian referred

to as the problem with no name which is the you know the the phrase from the which was competing at the same time with keeping up with the Joneses in Britain. So you've got attempts to make the home, this sanctuary, be something that's as competitive as the marketplace. Sort of kind of parallel. So that women themselves became involved in a game of competition. It's really quite interesting. A kind a game of competition it's really quite interesting a kind of game of course yes they moved in tandem didn't they the production in the workplace and what we're seeing you know the new consumer right so once you're out of it once you're out of the

munitions factories you know give us back our wives and sweethearts you then have to recognize that they actually are used to the sophisticated competition or the camaraderie. So you have a virtual camaraderie, don't you? You don't actually have a hygge camaraderie. I mean, maybe you give them a radio or a television serial to watch, and maybe you have this insulting thing called a coffee clutch, which was deemed... What's a coffee clutch? That was when women got together

because they were sort of a bit lonely and they needed to discuss their recipes and their children and their morning everything that we now actually think oh that's really interesting that was women's culture and how how fabulous and extraordinary but there's there's all these different strains going on i think trina you want to come in? Yeah I think when you talk about consumerism the hygge thing is quite important because that that is kind of the opposite whereas it of course it's played on for everybody who wants to sell anything I know that but if you talk about something being hyggelig you'd have a good example of saying that you know we can't afford to do this and that but instead we'll go home and have a Hüchli time

together you use it a lot like that so even you know of you know through the 60s and 70s and so it it became something that would be we might not be able to afford this but that's okay because we are so good at having a Hüchli time instead you don't need to spend the money yeah um Susie I mean a home is an emotional space as well as a physical one, isn't it? How central is it to our emotional health? For some of us, it's absolutely critical. But there are people for whom home is actually quite frightening. And they don't want to be there. And they don't know what to do with themselves when they are there. Or they want to get away from the children. Or historically, men haven't known what their their place is so I don't actually think we can say what is home we could probably go around

this table and say what's home for each of us but it's sold to us as the place of privacy and of truth authenticity as you were saying and of self-expression but honestly it's also a place of drudgery and difficulty hard work and for me enormous pleasures I work from home and I also love my home let me bring in Helen Zaltzman here because you know I know that you are currently between abodes yes should we say how should we phrase it you you had to pack everything up and stay with your brother for a bit. Yeah, our landlord wanted to move back into his flat. Fine, because it's his flat. And we'd been living there for ten years, so it felt very much like our home.

So at the moment we're living in my brother's attic, which is very homely, but it's not my home. And nearly all of my stuff is in a storage unit in south london is that my home probably not and weirdly i i wasn't very pleased when he announced that he was returning after 10 years of us living there but now that it's happened the lack of attachment i i feel I'm actually fine with in a way I feel like the home that I now seek isn't necessarily a permanent residence or at least for the next couple of years it might be moving around and interacting with various different people and I get that sense from their proximity rather than the physical space. So what are the objects that

you've kind of carried with you that constitute home? What makes home for you? Oh that's a very good question. I have a large collection of square scarves so I brought a good few dozen of those but you know that's the capsule collection right and my husband brought uh some of his guitars again his capsule collection of guitars is still a lot of guitars by most people's standards of guitars but I think if there were no instruments at all then it would feel like we were staying in a travel lodge or something um but I've only got 20 books and uh that I know and what about the stuff that's in storage are you missing it because this is the the thing, when you move, I think most of us have probably had an experience

where we've moved house and maybe you haven't unpacked for a bit or something, but those boxes of stuff that you spend ages packing up and you think it's indispensable and then you just forget what's in it, don't you? Now I'm thinking, what is the point of all that stuff? Except the other day it was getting cold because also the heating doesn't work in the house

that I live in. And I was thinking, thinking ah my favorite winter mugs in storage and i don't even know whether i'll see it for a year or where i'll be unpacking it and that felt a bit weird that's just a stupid that's a two quid mug it's not even a good mug it's just my favorite winter mug um i think you'll understand that trina because i've read your book and I know that you're quite particular about your mugs. Yes that I yeah that's like I have a morning one I have an afternoon I have one for coffee one for tea. Okay and they've got to be the the perfect one for the perfect time. Yes. This sense of ritual then about eating and drinking for you is that is that in the kind of ritual element of dining important? Yes, it is. But I'm also, I'm very fond of my home, but I'm not attached to it like we're talking about. And I think it has to do with my childhood that I was, you know, I lived in a lot

of communes with my very left-wing parents who was trying to do things in a different ways. So I can live anywhere. I live anywhere. I can live in a suitcase. I travel a lot. I don't mind it. But I love, I mean, I need to have a cup of tea in the morning, even though I'm not British. I'm Danish. And if I go to a hotel, I will find my favorite cup right away.

And I'll ask for it if it's not there the next day. So I have these things where I try to kind of recreate what I think is important. I mean, I suppose it comes back where I try to kind of recreate what I think is important. I mean, I suppose it comes back to meaning. I've just moved home, so I've got the boxes. I'm not in a position to unpack them yet because, you know, a couple of thousand of them are books. I mean, a couple of thousand volumes are books, right? Okay, not a couple of thousand boxes. No, no, and kitchen equipment.

Susie, this is out of control. This hoarding's got to stop. The two things that matter to me, kitchen and books. I mean, apart from people, which are very important. But what interested me in this transition was that despite the fact that I was moving to somewhere that was very much appealed to me architecturally and design-wise, I really felt so attached to the place that I was living in that I thought I would mourn it and the minute that I got into this new place I thought I don't even want to go back there I have no feeling for it it's kind of over for me and that was a big shock I don't know if it relates to your story

exactly the same I was really surprised because I thought I am a homebody. I go out in my forest, but I see people at home and I write from home. So I see patients and I'm at home a lot. And I thought that it was my physical environment was so important to me. Yet I was in a, I found myself being able to just kiss it goodbye. So home is spirit as well as spirit as well as it's internalized in some way i think maybe it's because i'm so ancient at this point that whatever home means it is it is part of me and it has come with me to be expressed in a new form but i i was had a surprise but maybe it's also because um we're lucky it wasn't a traumatic removal from home correct that we had i mean we're not exactly so.

So let's talk about the idea of kind of opening up your life at home to the wider world. Trina, you've done that with your book. Did you worry at all about the way it would be received and people perhaps disagreeing or judging, especially if you're saying, this is what hygge means to me and something that's such a big part of Danish culture? Nope, not at all.

Because that's my way of living and I'm not being judgmental of other people but of course I come from a culture where a dining table is really really important we don't have homes really without a dining table and and the whole idea of having people over for dinner, both casually and spontaneously. And it's such a big part of how we do it. And I think it's a great story. And I think I really, really, truly believe that in that sense, the Scandinavians have something to offer to the world and say, you don't have to work 50, 60 hours a week. It's pretty important to pick up your children around four or five o'clock

and go home and have dinner with them and speak to them. And I don't really care what you cook I mean it doesn't have to be you know two hours organic meal forever and ever you can also just buy you know just cook it and sit down and eat and enjoy yourself or your friends or you know so and I believe actually like really naively that if we did that a lot and sat down we could change the world. But do you think it's I mean I suppose the Scandinavian bit is finishing work early because what you're describing is incredibly Jewish it's incredibly Middle Eastern it's incredibly Indian. I grew up in a household where anybody who walked through the door was was fed whether they want actually wanted to be or not

because that's what you did and I was in shock when I went to other people's houses and was asked to wait in the sitting room while they finished their dinner. I mean, I was... Oh, my God. I just didn't understand it. It wasn't what I came from. Sure. So what I think is very different about what you're talking about

is that positioned in the Western world where working from 6 a.m. to God knows what time is now privileged as being the way to be your bit of the continent has challenged that and I think we can put food back into that discussion and time to hug it and and and I think the most important thing that we bring to the table right now is that it's socially acceptable for both men and women to get up at their work around four o'clock

and say, I have to pick up the kids and go home and cook. Permission to slow down and permission to opt out of the kind of busy commercial work, really. So that's kind of like the Italian cheetahs, the slow food movement and also this egalitarianism in parenting because I know for example my husband and I shared uh parental leave when we we adopted our daughter when she was nine months old so he took the first half I took the second half and his time off was greeted with astonishment.

You know, we work in a school of social sciences, and even, you know, the social scientists would go, oh, my God, you know, what are you doing? Because it's that idea of career and getting on. Well, my partner at the time was asked, are you sure it's your baby? What? Even though...

Because he was the first person to take parental leave. Trina, they're talking about the work-life balance and the split between work and home I mean to what extent do we think that that work is encroaching on home now because this is another problem of you know digital culture and the mobile you know because work is always there email is always there you're always contactable, what do you think about that? It's problematic because, you know, there's this concept in geography, you know, of the third space, which always used to be, you know, someone like the coffee shop or these liminal spaces, which aren't quite one thing or the other. But what's happening is that people are working from home all the time. I can check my emails in the middle of the night with this mobile working environment. I actually researched the opposite, which I've called homing from work because with this sort

of blurring of boundaries oh yes you know checking Facebook while you should be doing something well my dear I I didn't speak to anyone who did that but but you know I have my slippers at work because it seems utterly peculiar I'm spending a lot of time in this place. Of course, I'm going to put my slippers on. But the way in which people can do that with something as small as a mug, you know, even in a hot desking environment, you've got your mug, you've got your cardi on the back of the chair, and that place is yours for a time. So do you think, does your research show that we're doing that more,

that we're personalising work more and blurring the boundaries between the two places? saw on that sofa over there is that people are losing space I know in the BBC you know there was a lot of difficulty when everything suddenly went open plan and you know programs started losing their studios where they'd hunkered down and hung their Mexican hats on the clock and so on as I've noticed you've done in Woman's Hour that is the hat of joy occasionally people have to pop it on when they need to to perk up the hat of joy it's a secret it's that maybe what we're getting back to is you know just just what people have been talking about about home not being a place somewhere to be mourned as we move on to the next or chucked out of our place but it's it's more to do with I think this is who you go actually the

hearing now mindfulness I know for example work I did with with refugees asylum seekers who who are destitute is that that they felt at home for the two hours in the drop-in center when they were just talking over a cup of tea, perhaps preparing food together. You know, that was a kind of forced placelessness. But actually, maybe that's what it would be a good idea to get back to rather than this obsession with territorial ownership of space. Is togetherness a good enough word? Yeah, togetherness is part of space. Is togetherness a good enough word?

Yeah, togetherness is also part of it. But you can hygge alone as well. You can hygge alone. So does that mean that because you feel bountiful inside and you feel content enough and warm enough?

I think in the British depictions that I've seen in magazines and stuff of huger it is a very solitary activity as far as it's being portrayed to us it's generally speaking a lady in cozy socks holding a coffee with two hands like holding a coffee like it's a like it's a bowl of cereal in a way that i don't think anyone ever actually drinks coffee that way but that seems to be the hands yes require a slang kit? Or a Christmas jumper, but at any time of year. Yeah. I'm up for both those things, I've got to be honest. No, I can't believe it. Hooga is kind of part of this new domesticity. Susie, what do you make of that? I think of it

as kind of keep calm and have a cupcake culture. You don't think it was the selling of women back, some aspect of femininity back to women in a slightly more you know post superwoman which we never actually got beyond which was the thatcher ripoff of second wave feminism and where we had to have it all and be it all and do it all at the same time was there something about that domesticity and maybe nigella unwittingly or wittingly um was part of this, was we will make it ours in a different way. We'll make it rounded. We won't make it with hard joints. We will make it bountiful and sharing. And part of that story, of course, was this is damn frightening, those women out there in the world. We're going to tell them their place. And then, you know, we're going to tell them what

their bodies have to look like. And then we're going to tell them their place. And then, you know, we're going to tell them what their bodies have to look like. And then we're going to tell them exactly how they have to perform femininity. And then you get Nigella, who's both subversive and non-subversive, because she says, no, you're not going to do it that way. We're going to actually have that delicious stuff that you're telling us we're not allowed to have. We're going to lick it. We're going to wear it. We're going to be sensual. And we're going to be as big as we are or as small as we are it's irrelevant we are going to take up the space

so I think there was something kind of transgressive about the counterpoint to the domestic that was the domestic goddess maybe to my shame I have never seen a Nigella teleprogram or the Great British Bake Off no I've never seen the bake off, which is really shameful because I just watched it waiting down in the downstairs here. Was it good? It's completely riveting because it's craft. It's about the capacity of the ordinary and the pleasure in the ordinary. I mean, as somebody who does cook, but I can't bake, I'm really fascinated by another cookery skill and the interest and engagement with that. And this seems to me to be so touching and so engaging because you're really interested in how they're doing it, how they're actually

solving the problems that they're encountering as they're preparing the dough. It is called the cult of domesticity. Cult was actually shortened originally historically from culture. It is a cult. It's all on Pinterest, it's on Instagram and I'm just wondering as endearing as the Great British Bake Off might be for example is it is it just another way of branding of putting in inverted commas everyday life what people have just been doing and are doing and then someone goes oh hang on a minute let's get some books and tv programs out maybe it is but maybe for the few minutes that i saw what really interested me is that it's reflective of something about cultural change which is it wasn't white it wasn't female it wasn't young

so this is the bake-off there were a couple of guys two non-whites and there's Mary Berry she's not a youngster there was something different about it that spoke to let's recognize cultural change okay so it's representing cultural change but it's also merchandising it you know what are we saying what is it four million or four billion I lose track of the noughts you know because you've been talking about first second wave third wave we're on to fourth wave feminism and with each rolling of the tide you know at first it was just white middle class women gradually more and more women are being kind of incorporated into feminism but at the same time we have this kind of backlash the cult of domesticity that that is incorporating there's one point that i really think that second waivers of which obviously i am we didn't want to

put down the whole notion of the personal the familial the friendship the home the raising of children we actually wanted to say, no, those are interesting topics. We were brought up to think they were really uninteresting topics if we went to university. And the women talked about that and the men talked about real stuff. And then we worked out, no, this is real stuff. This is just as real as everything else that's been talked about. So, yes, I agree with you. But I also don't because I think there's something about the domestic that is very, very important and needs not to be downgraded I mean it's absolutely right there are kind of dualities left right and centre with all this stuff on there obviously and Helen this

seems like a good point to ask you about it because obviously we have this kind of strange mix don't we where we do have such a big kind of industry has sprung up but the popularity of craft and and you're a crafter but then it's in some ways you know the whole point of it is to make something yourself for it to be homemade but it's more expensive to knit a jumper than to buy a jumper I mean how do you kind of how do you wrestle with all this? I think it was easy for me because it was just something I was raised doing by parents who made a lot of their own stuff, partly out of necessity, because they didn't have a lot of money. They used to mend all their own things. I was like,

how do my parents know how to mend roofs and cut down trees? That's amazing. I still don't know how to do those things. I remember a few years ago when the trend was starting for a lot of workshops, a lot of hen do's that were going to make bunting. And there was some craft supplement with one of the weekend papers and it was saying, hey, knit in public on the tube or something so everyone can see. And I was like, no, that is not what it's about. It's solitary.

It's for your own self-improvement. This was before really the visual element of social media had really caught on. I suppose a lot of the commodification of it, it's a gateway for some people. I think a lot of people look at stuff and they think, I don't know how to do that. And unlike me, they don't think, let's try it. They think I'm not allowed. So it's in a way permission for them. And I think a lot of people, they might buy a knitting kit and then get very frustrated when it's slow and they don't do it perfectly first

off and they give up. But the ones who persevere, that's just their starting point. So I think that's quite a positive thing, if it gets people to discover that thing themselves. And where are the lines for you? Because it's a really funny one. I was thinking about this in the run-up to this, because my mum used to be, she was a seamstress and she used to make clothes and she used to do it for money

because she didn't have any money. So when she was a student, she did that. And then she hated doing anything like that as she got older. And for her, it kind of hearkened back. I remember asking her when I was in a band to make me some clothes for the stage because I was so tall, I couldn't get these ridiculous kind of gold trousers that I wanted or whatever it was.

And so she made me these, but I remember her really not enjoying it because it just reminded her of kind of, you know, being poor. It's complicated for people, I think. Where are the lines for you, Helen? And, you know, what kind of counts as craft and what counts as commerce? Because we have this kind of, this authenticity industry all around us. It's interesting what you're saying because I would put in to the question to Helen, relating to your mum, and when is it drudgery?

Yes. Because when those frozen foods came in initially, that was really helpful for women. That is a form of relief or liberation. So I'm interested in the drudgery craft commerce argument. That is one of the really big paradoxes for the, because nowadays the middle class, we are seeking this authenticity all the time. And we're doing it a lot in food.

I mean, so many things goes on in food. Like now we can go to fancy restaurants and eat, you know, the pigtail and the feet and everything. And my grandmother was so happy she didn't have to eat it anymore. You know, because it showed that they were not poor anymore. And I think these, I mean, and I'm old enough to have been with my grandmother there's actually some recipes in my book which takes two days to make and I can remember like having it once because then my grandmother found out she could buy it in the new supermarket

that just opened and she was so happy she didn't have to do it again so I think that is the paradox because the craftsmanship and the cooking and all of that for the middle class now that is a for us a way to kind of connect with a lot of things that we have lost and how do we tackle all of that you know without being pressure you know well i think if you're lucky enough to have a craft or adore cooking or or anything in the domestic then it's really delicious but if you don't it's a lot of difficulty. Helen what do you think? At the moment I'm wearing a dress that I made and I don't think that makes it or me better it's just I liked the fabric. It is an awesome dress though come on be honest. Morally I'm better because of the dress. Obviously. No it's just I like the fabric it has

a pattern on it it's sort of a paint by numbers of some stags and because I'm bigger and it's harder to find clothes and I need to cover my body in garments so it's it's really a practical thing and when people say oh where's that dress from because they too like the pictures of stags and I say oh I made it I'm not going yeah I made it it's just it's just the answer to where I got it from but I feel like it comes across that way that there's some kind of superiority that actually I don't I don't feel and then there's that thing as well when you're young it can be quite mortifying to wear homemade garments yes there's a tipping point of your age where it's not nice to wear a jumper that you're nan knitted you anymore it's like

embarrassing Christmas jumper is mortifying until it's the most thoughtful gift that yeah when does it come back in? What's the age bracket? Well, this is when you've got over needing to be exactly like everybody else in order to feel it's safe enough to risk having your own identity. I mean, that is the problem of being an adolescent, isn't it? You've all got to look the same and be the same in order to differentiate at all. Susie, thank goodness you're here. I think that's all we've got time for, guys,

but one final question. I mean, hibernation season is upon us. I'm going to be onesying up with a box set. Would any of my guests like to share? I think that's a bit old-fashioned, boxing. I'm sorry. I'm using it as a metonym. As a generic. As a metonym for I am going to be downloading some series of some shows. How will my guests be spending winter at home? Would anybody like to share? Trina? I'm going to have a lot of hot chocolates and cinnamon buns.

That sounds all right. Helen Saltzman? There's a patchwork quilt I started a year ago and I'm only 40% into and it was commissioned by a friend so I need to get on with it. What about you, Rachel? I will be engaging in making craft with my three-year-olds which will mainly involve a lot of glue not on the paper but on me

and the table. Perfect standard and Susie I hope to be putting my books away and I'll be playing with my grandson. That sounds marvellous. Thank you very much indeed to my guests tonight, Helen Saltzman, Rachel Hurdley, Susie Orbach, and Trina Harneman. Thank you all. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.