Woman's Hour - Launch of the Woman's Hour Power List 2023, Triathlete and screenwriter Lesley Paterson; Chores post Covid

Episode Date: January 26, 2023

The Woman's Hour Power List for 2023 is here! Last year was a game-changer for the visibility and perception of women in sport in this country and we want to showcase inspirational women – both on and off the field – who are spearheading and building on this momentum to elevate women’s sport. We need your suggestions! The chair of judges Jessica Creighton joins Anita Rani to launch the Power List and explains how you can make your suggestion. Lesley Paterson is a five times world champion triathlete. She’s also a successful screenwriter, who has just been nominated for an Oscar and a BAFTA for Best Adapted Screenplay for the film All Quiet on the Western Front. It’s taken her sixteen years to get the film made. A woman no stranger to endurance, she explains how she used her prize money from her sporting career to help fund the film. It’s now one of this year’s biggest contenders at the Oscars and BAFTAs. A transgender woman in Scotland has been convicted of raping two women in attacks carried out before changing gender. Isla Bryson is now in custody and facing a lengthy jail term - but where that sentence should be served is the subject of heated debate. It has led to concerns about the safety of any women held alongside Bryson in a female prison. The Scottish Prison Service says the decision on where transgender prisoners are housed is taken on a case-by-case basis after appropriate risk assessments. Catriona Renton has been following the case for BBC Scotland News and joins Anita.Claudia Jones, the woman described as the 'founding spirit' of Notting Hill Carnival, is to be commemorated with a blue plaque this year. The feminist, journalist and political activist is one of five women whose achievements and legacy will be marked by English Heritage. Currently, about 14 per cent of the nearly 1,000 blue plaques honour women. Anita finds out more from the freelance journalist and Editor of Soho House, Sagal Mohammed.WFH, or the hybrid working week, has become the new norm for many of us in the paid workforce since Covid. But how does this affect the amount of unpaid domestic labour and the sharing of daily chores in UK households? Who does the most in your home – men or women? How happy are you with the division of work? What has changed since the lockdowns? Shireen Kanji, Professor of work and organisation at Brunel University and Oriel Sullivan, Professor of Inequalities of Gender, at the Centre for Time Use Research, University College, London discuss a hypothetical chore calculator; what chores are being inputted daily and what’s the emotional result? Presented by Anita Rani Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Karen Dalziel

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. I've got a couple of questions for you this morning. Number one, what is a chore? And the second question, who does them in your house? Working from home or the hybrid working week has become the new norm for many of us in the paid workforce, for now at least. How does this affect the amount of domestic labour and the sharing of daily chores in your household?

The cooking, the cleaning, feeding the kids, loading the dishwasher, that old chestnut, remembering birthdays, organising the diary, general admin. I'm sorry if this is triggering for some of you this morning. Well, today I want you to get it all off your chest. Did things change during lockdown? Have things gone back to the way they were before? Do you have a perfectly balanced routine between you and your partner at home? Is it an effortless dance of splitting the chores? Or do you find yourself having to scream into a pillowcase once in a while, having to pick up a wet towel from the floor for the 70th time in one week? Well, we'd like to hear your experiences.

And we'd like to hear from you on air today. If you would like to talk to me about your experience, then please email me by going to our website, leave a mobile number, and maybe we can call some of you back and talk to you on the programme. You can also text me 84844. You can contact us via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour.

Or you can leave a voice note. It's 03700 100 444. Now, can you even begin to imagine winning a triathlon with a broken arm? Well, Leslie Patterson did. And she also happens to be the screenwriter behind the new film All Quiet on the Western Front, which took her 16 years to get onto the big screen. She's quite a woman and you'll hear from her shortly. And at the moment, only 14% of the almost 1000 blue plaques in London commemorate women. But

that figure is set to change as the new list has been announced and the majority are unsung female heroes, including two suffragettes, Princess Sophia, the daughter of Maharaja Dhalip Singh, and Emily Wilding Davison, who stepped in front of the King's horse at the 1913 Derby. And Claudia Jones, described as the founding spirit of the Notting Hill Carnival.

We'll be finding out about her a little bit later in the programme. Remember that number to text if you want to join in with the conversation is 84844. But first, I feel like I need a drumroll or some applause or something to build this up. Something really exciting for you now on Woman's Hour. The Woman's Hour Power List 2023 has arrived. This year, it will showcase women in sport. Following an incredible year with moments such as Team GB's curlers winning gold in Beijing, our rowing team winning gold at the European Championships, and of course, England's lionesses lifting the trophy at the Euros, to name a few,

and more great moments to come, no doubt, with some big events later this year. But here to tell us more about how you can get involved is sports broadcaster, journalist, our power list chair, and fellow Woman's Hour presenter, Jessica Crichton. Can we just appreciate they've got two Woman's Hour presenters in the studio at once first, Jess? It's fabulous. It feels odd, though, being on the other side of the microphone but very good morning

to you Anita. It's lovely lovely to see you it's like the hour is going to be fuelled by estrogen today. I think so and rightly so. Absolutely so Jess tell us about the power list women in sports why now why this list? Well it's a great. I think the more I thought about this, the more I thought, well, why not? We talk about the Lionesses, as you mentioned there, and that breakthrough moment of them roaring to success at the Euros in the summer and what it did in terms of bringing women's football to the mainstream, increasing exposure, perhaps improving perceptions as well of women in sport, not just in football, women's sport throughout the UK.

But there's been so many of those pivotal, groundbreaking moments in the past year alone. Who can forget the historic medal haul by the Paralympics athletes at the Paralympic Games? You mentioned the curlers and the British women in the curling at the Winter Olympics, the strides that have been made in Welsh women's boxing. And let me not forget the Northern Ireland women's football team earning their first ever birth at a major tournament. It's been an incredible year. And so why not shine a spotlight on those women, those sportswomen that have achieved incredible things,

but also the many women involved behind the scenes, behind the headlines, who we don't always get to hear from. I mentioned a list of incredible moments there, but there's been so many standout moments in the past year. So let me just remind you. Celebrations for the England team, England's women cricket team, in Christchurch in New Zealand. They have just won their semi-final, which takes us through to

the final. Mena Fitzpatrick and her guide Gary Smith did a brilliant slalom to win bronze, their second medal of the Games and the sixth Paralympic medal of Mena's career. Tour de France Femme is a real watershed moment for the sport. We believe that this can take

women's cycling to the next level. From Aideesh McColgan winning the 10,000 metre gold. For me as a mother, not even as a coach, to witness your daughter winning is amazing and to win it in the same event that I won it in. Gold for Wales is Olivia Breen. She finished first in the women's T37 38 100 metre final. England's women have reached the Rugby World Cup final and this is incredibly now 30 victories in a row.

Bethany Firth leading the way, she's now won golds at all major championships. Eve Muirhead's women's curlers crushing Japan 10-3. The England women's hockey team won gold for the first time at the Commonwealth Games beating Australia in the final. And history is made by the Lionesses. This is what dreams are made of, as a young girl watching women's football. Now this, wow, it's unbelievable. If this is what we can do on a fraction of the budget, think about what we can do if it gets to the point where it's equal.

If girls are not allowed to play football just like the boys can in their PE after this tournament, then what are we doing? You think it's all over? It's only just begun. Jess, spine-tingling stuff. Honestly, I get chills listening to all that again. I love that at the end, Gabby Logan, it's just the beginning. It's time, isn't it?

It really is. There's been so many moments, though. Everyone will mention the Lionesses, but there's been years upon years of success, and women haven't necessarily got the coverage that they deserve for that success. Which is why Women's Hour are doing this. So how are you going to decide who features on this list? Well, in true Women's Hour fashion, we want some listener input.

We want all of our listeners to get involved and suggest people that they think should be considered to be on this list. Not just sportswomen. I've mentioned sportswomen, of course, but there's other categories as well that I'll go into as well but we want people and women who have made a difference not just those achieving success on the sporting field but those behind the scenes as well all the suggestions that come in will be whittled down to a final list of 30 by myself because i'm the chair and an expert panel of judges we've got some incredible judges who Who's on your panel? Oh my goodness. Where do we start? So we've got three judges, including myself as a chair.

The three judges will be Ebony Rainford-Brent, former cricketer, won a World Cup with England. Sam Quek, who I'm so excited to be working with, former hockey player who was part of the hockey team

that gave me one of my highlights for the 2016 Olympic Games in Rio de Janeiro, winning British women's first ever Olympic hockey gold back in 2016. And you might have seen her as well as the first female captain on a question of sport. And Tanni Grey-Thompson to finish off the list. I mean, what an honour to have Baroness Tanni Grey Thompson to work with her. And I was lucky enough to interview her when she was a powerhouse athlete. And since her retirement, she has really blazed a trail. She went from being one of the most

celebrated British Paralympians to becoming a Dame in 2005 for her services to sport and then becoming a crossbench peer in the House of Lords. She is someone that has brought about lasting change for women in sport. That's quite a panel. And you, as you've mentioned, are the chair. Yeah, you sit right at the top. I know. So how are you going to handle this?

Because you are all women who are quite driven. You're in sport. So you're all very competitive. Yes. So you're going to really want to fight for your corner for your names yeah how are you gonna keep the peace well that's a good thing boxing gloves yeah there's gonna be some very thorough thorough rowdy robust discussions i think about this okay so we and you want the help of all the listeners how are you going to help them get

thinking are there separate categories there are Sportswomen is the obvious one. So, you know, listeners, we want your suggestions for sportswomen, those at the top of their game who have achieved something exceptional, something that will make you think about them in years to come. But not just sporting success. Perhaps they've used their platform as well to bring about a lasting change for their sport. Another category, leaders. It could be coaches. It could be managers. But what about the politicians, the businesswomen, the board members

that lead the way to inspire results? Changemakers. I like this category because this is the disruptors. I've often been called a disruptor in my life. You might find that hard to believe. The disruptors, the people that challenge the status quo. Do you know someone that's campaigned for equal pay or better maternity rights? Someone that's pushed change in terms of infrastructure to leave a lasting legacy. Amplifiers as well as another category. Those people that elevate women's sport. It could be broadcasters. I know many myself.

What about the media executives, though? The women working to negotiate better TV rights so that we see more women's sport on the TV? Or what about sports agents, those that work really hard to improve the representation of sportswomen? Those are the people who magnify and boost women's sports in their respective fields. And also, this is what makes this Women's Hour Power List so fantastic because we have a grassroots category. And that is for the unsung heroes. We hear about sometimes, you know, the sports women and a few people behind the scenes that might make the headlines as well. But what about those people that don't always get the recognition? The unsung heroes that work so hard in their local communities to make real lasting change. I think back to when I was a little girl and like many from my age and my era, we got that letter from our local council when we were young girls playing in boys football teams to say, sorry, Jess, you can't play in this team anymore because you are a girl. You need to go and find a girls team. And for many people in that situation, there was no local girls team. So they dropped out of the sport. I was lucky enough to have a woman called Yvonne who set up a girls team,

would ship us all around from home to training to matches and be that person who volunteered her time, her effort, her resources to make sure that the local girls in the area had an outlet like that. And that was life changing for me. Do you know someone like that? Someone at a sports club, at a youth centre, someone that set up a walking group? Grassroots. Yeah.

That's one of the categories that's so important. And the unsung heroes. They really are. The people that are really doing the work. They really are. To ensure that we have a next generation. And, you know, you talking about you being a little girl. I'm just thinking about the impact that this list will have on the next generation of girls and boys

I honestly I'm that's why I'm so excited this is so worthwhile we're putting all our effort into this to celebrate to uplift because we know it's not an equal playing field I don't have to spell it out to our women's our listeners it's not equal playing field. So if we can do that part to uplift, amplify, elevate, that's exactly what we should be doing with the people that make the headlines alongside those behind the scenes. Parity. They're all on one list. We're celebrating them all together. So how do people submit their suggestions? Oh, it's really easy. You just basically go to the Woman's Hour website. All the information is there. You've got loads of time to think about it.

You've got loads of time to discuss this with your friends and neighbours, your colleagues at work. You've got until the 8th of February suggestions that come in. You have until midnight, basically. And, you know,

I should point it out as well that these are suggestions. These are names that people are putting forward to come under consideration just because you've suggested someone doesn't necessarily mean that they should make the list but don't let that deter you because we want as diverse array of names as possible different ages different backgrounds different roles different parts of the UK we want everyone

to be involved so yes get submitting and over the next few weeks we're going to be hearing from our judges on the program and we'll be discussing issues relating to women in sports. So please let us know if there's anything you think we should be covering. So get submitting your suggestions. Jess, it's been such a pleasure speaking to you. I'm so excited. And also, I want to be in the room when you get the boxing gloves out. It's going to get heated. It's going to get heated. I'm going to ask you about something else we're talking on the program a little bit later the division of chores in the household I know it's so triggering how is it in your in your world it is triggering

because I am the chief chore doer that's my title in my house and when I was growing up my mother was the chief chore doer as well do you want to be the chief uh no i would prefer parity yeah i would prefer equality but apparently that's not possible discuss 84844 is the number to text jess thank you so much best of luck i can't wait to hear what you're going to bring back to us uh lots of you getting in touch about the chores anita i have to say my husband doesn't do anything at home oh dear he and i work from home and he doesn't see it. The mess created leave me really stressed out. He lives, leaves me and he's very, he loves me and he's very generous and buys, I think that's a, there's the typo is very telling as well. He loves me and he's very generous and

buys me gifts all the time. He takes me for meals and lunches and we've had some great breaks away, which almost makes me feel ungrateful. But home life on a daily basis is hard and I'm left to pick up and put things away. He infuriated me with sweet wrappers and coats and shoes just dumped. Am I being ungrateful? I don't know.

He was completely spoiled as a child by his mother. Perhaps I should have a cleaner, but it's so bad I wouldn't have them clean his bathroom, which I don't share. Kind regards from Sharon. Get in touch, 84844. Kevin says, I'm a single dad with my three grown-up stepdaughters living with me, 21, 26, 27. I do all the chores except cooking. They cook for themselves. I just do my magic cleaning the kitchen after them. I don't clean their bedrooms. That's their domain. And

I just ask them to keep their doors closed. What I can't see, I can't stress over. Don't call me Cinderella. I'm Cinderfella. Lol. Thank you very much, Kevin. Now, Leslie Patterson is a five times world champion triathlete. She's also a successful writer who's just been nominated for an Oscar and a BAFTA for Best Adapted Screenplay for the German language film All Quiet on the Western Front.

A powerful film now showing on Netflix. There's no glorification of war and no heroes. language film, All Quiet on the Western Front, a powerful film now showing on Netflix. There's no glorification of war and no heroes. It's taken her 16 years to get the film made. A woman, no stranger to endurance, she used her prize money from her sporting career to help fund the film, and now it's one of this year's biggest contenders at the Oscars and BAFTAs.

Well, the Scot joined me earlier from LA, where she now lives, and I began by asking her how she's celebrating all the nominations. Oh, it's just, it's absolutely bananas. I don't think it's sunk in yet. That's for sure. Not in my wildest dreams did I think this would happen. I mean, you always, I guess you will it into existence. You know, I've imagined it for a long time, but you're never quite sure that it's gonna come to fruition I think we need to go right back to sort of explain to the audience

the story behind this by the way the film is incredible it's so moving it's so powerful it's so harrowing I know everybody's reviewed it and everyone has said amazing things and the nominations for all the awards speak for themselves but let let's talk about your journey, because take me back 16 years ago and you acquiring the rights to the book. Yes. So it was a really curious journey. My partner at the time, Ian Stokell, my writing partner, we both were reading the book in a local bookstore. They were doing a promotion. And and of course it's such a gorgeous classic and we thought wow nobody's remade this in so long and certainly not kind of in modern cinema I wonder who has the option to the rights and you know normally the big studios have them normally

big producers have them so um we we went to looking and lo and behold, they were available, which was in itself totally shocking. And then we pleaded with them, gave them a pitch and they said yes. And that was that. Off we went on a journey to adapt the novel and, you know, try and get the thing off the ground. Why were you so keen to adapt it for a modern audience? What did you want to do that was different? I think, you know, there's a couple of things. One is that it's such a powerful and timely message of betrayal of the youthful generation. And I think that, you know, that is always a timely message and it continues to be, unfortunately. But secondly, because it's told from the other side, the German side, that's very unique. It's not often that we hear from, quote unquote, our enemies.

So once we started to dig into some of the historical context around World War I and how that led to World War II, yeah, we were just enamoured with the whole story. It's incredibly poignant. You sort of sit up and pay attention as soon as you realise that we're getting a different perspective here. Yeah, you know, and I think the way that Edward has shot the film, it is so visceral. You're in it every moment. And, you know, hats off to all the cast and crew for dealing with those conditions. Absolutely. It's just unbelievable. Yeah, you're right in it. It's filthy, it's cold, it's terrifying. You are feeling every moment with them.

And also the soundtrack is so moving as well. Yeah, I mean, the composer. Oh, it was really interesting. Edward always discusses it in that he communicated with our composer he wanted to break the images with the sound, with the music. And that's exactly what it does. He never wants you to feel comfortable. That's the whole point.

Yeah. And there really is an arc in the music as well as we sort of come towards the end of the film. There's more strings, it's more melodic, you know, but just unusual like everything else in the film and I think that's why it's hitting a mark. I'm actually thinking of all the listeners who have yet to watch it and how it's going to stay with you for a long time when you do.

Back to the journey of the film getting made though, why did it take 16 years for it to come to our screens? Yeah, welcome to the film business. I'll tell you, you know, we've been speaking obviously to a lot of producers recently and that's a common story, but 16 years is definitely a long time. And I think it's to do with the fact that 16 years ago World War I was not a war that cinema covered you know cinema was very much the American landscape so World War II was a war that that was covered and not only that raising the the finance for a war film is incredibly difficult and we know as a genre that's a tough one to get off the ground. And then also, you know, sort of a German film, even more so a foreign film.

But now the landscape has changed with the streamers like Netflix coming into it, you know, to get these things off the ground. That's what's so wonderful about it. So, but in the run up to it being made, you had to retain the rights to this book. And in order to do that, you had to pay, was it £10,000 a year? Yeah, close to, sometimes more. Sometimes more. Okay. So you had a very unique way of raising the funds to do this. Let's talk about your parallel life as an elite athlete. You compete in triathlons, don't you? That's how you raise money.

It is indeed. So I've been a professional triathlete for the last almost 20 years, competing all over the world in off-road triathlon. So yeah, my husband, Simon Marshall, and I were always wondering where we would get that next paycheck from in order to raise the finances. But having said that, I think the durability that I've gained from that sport certainly has transferred to film, that's for sure. Tell me about the story of you going to Costa Rica. This I could not believe.

This says a lot about you as a person and your tenacity and endurance. Yeah, and stupidity, I think most folks would say. Yeah, so when I go out to these races of course we have to spend our own money to get out there so getting on the podium is a big thing to try and earn your money back and then also earn your living or earn your money to get the option for the book and so the day before the race certainly when it's an off-road triathlon we do what's called pre-riding the course where we check terrain all the descents things like that

and I actually broke my shoulder so I fell off the bike broke my shoulder not that I knew at the time I just knew I could not lift it and it was very painful and I had a little uh chitty chat with my hubby and said what are we going to do and he said okay well can you can you can you ride your bike I propped my hand up and I thought I I think I can. I could probably walk the descent. Okay, okay, I can do that. Right, can you run? Well, of course I can run. You only need one arm to run.

And we went down to the ocean's edge and he said, well, can you swim? I said, not a hope in hell. I can't get my other arm over. So he said, well, you're really good at the one-arm drill, so why don't you give that a bash? And I thought, well, what's to what's to lose here so I got in the water on race morning and I swam a mile with one arm and came out the water about 12 to 15 minutes down and I got on the bike and rode up to fourth and carried my bike all down

the the technical descents because I couldn't hold on to the bars properly. And then, of course, I ran my way up into first. So, yeah. You just heard, ladies and gentlemen, Leslie won. She won with one arm. Can you please, I am so fascinated to tap into your mind to understand how you do that. What is it in you? I think it's probably the same.

I suspect it's the same thing that made you persist for 16 years to get this film over the line. What is that chip that you've got that means that you can continue and persist and just keep going? Yeah, you know, my husband calls it the fire in the belly. I've just always been like that. You know, I mean, I used to pretend I was Zola Budd running around, you know, the square and bare feet, you know, the famous South African runner when I was four years old. I mean, you can't buy that. You can't manufacture that. It just is. I have an incredible drive and it's often exhausting for those around me, but it's just, you know, that's the way I am.

It's the way I'm made up. Where do you think it comes from? I'd like to say it's that Scottish underdog, Calvinistic love of suffering. You know, it's like before I get my bar of chocolate, you know, I have to run up a mountain, that kind of thing. So, yeah, I'm not sure it's always a good thing and it definitely gets me into trouble.

But you've lived in LA for 20-odd years now. Has it not softened? It's still in you. Well, you know what? It's still in me, but, you know, the accent's still in me, thank goodness. Oh, yeah, never lose that. No, I am a bit of a softie.

I do like the sunshine and the warmth now, so I have a lot of big puffer jackets. But, you know, I mean, who doesn't, right? Yeah, exactly. Come on. We'll let you, we'll allow you that, Leslie. And this street, this drive that you've had, like you said, you had it since you were I remember holding my dad's hand and pointing at all the boys in all the mud and then fighting around. I said, Daddy, I want to do that. That looks really funny. He said, well, you do know there's no girls out there. And I said, great. So, yeah, I just, you know, and I, it was, it's funny because playing rugby, you know, you would just walk out onto the pitch and all the wee boys would laugh and point at you. But I guess that just built that resilience that in many ways you almost don't get these days.

People are so willing to want to protect and mollycoddle their children. But my parents were incredibly supportive. But at the same time, it was just crack on and do it. If you want to do it do it so you know 20 years on and we are now launching the woman's hour power list women in sport i read somewhere that you were quite disillusioned with sport in the uk yourself do you think we've come a long way do you think it's a different landscape now and how what it really is yeah they have amazing support for athletes now and they're really looking at the whole athlete.

Previously, it was very, you know, it was in the sort of 90s, early 2000s, where it really was about data and numbers and analysis and, you know, ticking the box. And I think now they're looking at the athlete as a whole, really prepping you, you know, mentally as well as physically. And my husband in his previous career was a sports psychologist and is now actually writing with me full time. But he's seen it change. He's worked with different athletes now. He's been called in to help, which is wonderful. And there's so much talent in the UK, so much. I love it. I'm obsessed with it. I watch it all the time.

Excellent. Well, we'll expect you to put some names forward for The Powerless then, Lesley. And back to the film, I mean, huge, huge congratulations. What a journey, what an exciting... Well, we're yet to see, there's still more to come. Has it been shown in Germany and what's the reaction? I mean, it has been shown all over the world. What's the reaction been in Germany to the film with a German sensibility, just that understanding of war for Germans.

There's a lot of shame around wars. So this is not a story about a hero. This is not a hero's journey. It's not an adventure. And that is, yeah, it's an amazing take. It's very powerful. And I think they're honoured, you know, with Edward. And very timely as well. There's a scene at the beginning,

and I think you wrote the scene, of uniforms being taken off dead soldiers and being repurposed and being sent back out. And that's happening now as well, isn't it? It is. It's happening in Russia, which is absolutely shocking. You know, when I dreamed up this sequence, never would I have thought that this is actually going to continue to occur because it really is thematically the essence of the entire story, that the uniform's worth more than the man.

And that's what's so impactful about filmmaking, about storytelling now, how we can put forth these ideas, these themes, these messages in such a powerful way. And now we know through avenues like Netflix, how many young people are getting to see this film and have reached out to us to see how it has impacted them. And that's all you could wish for as a filmmaker. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's one of those that once you've seen it you won't forget it and how has life changed for you and your husband, this writing duo that you know working away for 16 years because you are screenwriters, what's happened? That's right, it's the middle of my middle of my night, what's happened is I'm up at midnight which anybody who knows me will be shocked

yeah no, you know my husband really uh really helped with the script as well but was not a screenwriter at the time and and now he is and so we're going on this fabulous journey we've been married for 20 years now we're stepping into a completely different world with lots of different projects all over many different countries many different storylines and and what an experience we just can't wait more power to you we will be cheering you on at the BAFTAs at the Oscars what are you gonna wear I know I've got to so hey I'll do a shout out um I'm a big fan of Karen Millen I love her stuff uh also any other designers that fancy fancy giving me a shout please let me know right we've done that for you

someone will get in touch with you asap i'm sure lots of people listen to a woman's hour leslie it's been such a pleasure congratulations once again and uh yeah come back and talk to us once you've won that oscar tell us what it feels like fingers crossed thank you so much it's such an honor such an incredible story isn't it that was leslie patterson the screenwriter for all quiet on the Western Front, which you can see on Netflix now. I highly recommend it. Lots of you getting in touch about the division of chores in your house. Alan in Kent says, my mum educated myself and my brother never to be a burden to another woman or daughter. We can cook, clean, sew, iron and do the laundry.

We have two sisters and have never been a burden to another man's sister. Another message here. It's a trigger for me. Yes, I'm spoiled by my partner who works and I don't. He cooks often and does general tidying often, but will not clean his toilet and shower, nor teaches his son to do any chores at all, whereas I teach my daughter.

We'll be coming to that in a moment. But first, a transgender woman in Scotland has been convicted of raping two women in attacks carried out before changing gender. Isla Bryson is now in custody and facing a lengthy jail term. But where that sentence should be served is the subject of heated debate. It has led to concerns about the safety of any women held alongside Bryson in a female prison. The Scottish Prison Service says the decision on where transgender prisoners are housed is taken on a case-by-case basis after appropriate risk assessments.

Well, Katrina Renton has been following the case for BBC Scotland News and she joins me now. Welcome to the programme, Katrina. Let's get our rape earlier this week after a trial in the High Court in Glasgow. Now, Bryson was found guilty of raping a 30-year-old woman in Clydebank in 2016, and she was also found guilty of raping a 34-year-old woman in 2019. Now she first appeared in court as Adam Graham but shortly after that started gender reassignment surgery which gender reassignment process sorry I should say she is currently awaiting surgery. Now she told the court that she knew she was transgender at the age of four but she didn't make the decision to transition until she was 29 and she is currently taking hormones and seeking surgery to complete gender reassignment. And what's been said about this case? What's the Justice Secretary Dominic Raab said about it? Well we've heard quite a lot of comments on this case. It's created a heated row since the situation

was created. He tweeted that in England and Wales, transgender women without a gender recognition certificate are sent to male prisons as a matter of course, but we understand that he's referring to where they're held on remand, which is the same situation that we have here in Scotland. That's not where they serve their sentence as there are in England and Wales plans underway to change that as well and that means that transgender women who have committed sex crimes or retained male genitalia can't be held in women's prisons bar the most exceptional cases. We've heard from Yvette Cooper, the Shadow Home Secretary, she gave a view this morning on

the Today programme saying she doesn't believe this prisoner should be in a women's prison. We've heard from other high profile members of Parliament, Joanna Cherry, a Scottish MP, said yesterday that she said she felt there could be a perception that Bryson was gaming the system for, I suspect, an easier time, as they perceive it, in a female prison. But the Scottish Prison Services policy is very clear that they take these decisions on a case-by-case basis and assess people before deciding which prison they would ultimately serve or sentence in. So how exactly do they carry out the risk assessments?

Well, the prison service says that the decision is taken on a case-by-case basis. They don't work quickly to do this. They involve lots of different organisations, different agencies, do a full risk assessment, for example, medical assessments, psychological assessments. And I think crucially what we heard yesterday was that the debate in Scotland at the moment, which I'm sure that your listeners are aware of about the gender recognition bill which would make it easier for people to

change their legal sex in scotland than it would in other parts of the uk this law has of course been blocked by the uk parliament and it's a very polarized debate here at the moment but crucially what was said yesterday by the Justice Secretary is that this wouldn't actually have made a difference in this case, that the prison service will do their own risk assessment based on the threat, the risk to the prisoner themselves and to other prisoners in the prison, and of course, to the staff. So it's something that has been the common practice in Scotland for a very long time. I mean, there are not a lot of trans people in Scottish jails. I can give you some statistics about that.

I think we should zoom out a little bit and get a sense of perspective, because this is one case that has gained a lot of attention. But just how many transgender prisoners are there in Scotland? Well, relatively few. I mean, if you take into consideration that there are 7,092 male prisoners in Scotland, there are 280 female prisoners in Scotland. But in the output of trans prisoners,

there are 15 trans people in jail. That's 11 trans women and four trans men and there are also three non-bindery gender fluid people that was between July and September last year and if you break that down further of the 11 trans women six of them are housed in the male estate five in the female estate and if you look at the trans men's situation one of them is housed in the male estate and three of them in the female estate. So that compares to England and Wales, where there were 230 trans prisoners at the last count on the 31st of March of 2022. Of them, 49 transgender prisoners were in female prisons, six were trans women.

And of the 181 in the male estate, 162 were trans women and of the 181 in the male estate 162 were trans women so that gives you an idea clearly a much bigger issue for england and wales of course a much bigger country than scotland and actually if you break it down to to the statistics it breaks down as approximately a tenth which would be how we would probably cut other other calculations so probably not that different on the whole. So what has the Scottish First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, had to say about this case? Well, Nicola Sturgeon talked about this yesterday on Radio 4 and I think the important point that she made

was, you know, which the point the Scottish Government has been making is that this is something that the Scottish Prison Service is well established in doing of making risk assessments and I think what she wanted to say was that there is no automatic right for a trans woman convicted of an offence to go to a

woman's prison so this goes into that fact that at this moment in time she couldn't of course comment on the individual case of Isla Bryson but as we know at this moment in time she couldn't of course comment on the individual case of isla bryson but as we know at the moment isla bryson was initially taken to cornington bail prison which is the scottish female prison just outside sterling she will be there in segregation until the court case comes to its final conclusion which is sentencing which is at the end of next month,

when the judge, Lord Scott, will take into account the background reports. He will determine how long Isla Bryson will send in prison. He's already suggested that that will be a significant custodial sentence because of the nature of these violent crimes. However, the actual decision on where she will ultimately be housed will be taken by the Scottish Prison Service once they have carried out those full risk assessments and decided determined where is the

right place although we have heard of course from women's groups we've heard from high profile members of parliament that some of them certainly believe rape crisis certainly believes that no one who has been convicted of a sexual offence should be housed in a women's prison I mean you have to again take into account we've heard so much over the time about how so many people who are currently in the women's prison are themselves victims of abuse. And, you know, this is another factor that has to be, I think, weighed into how this decision is ultimately taken. Katrina Renton, thank you very much for speaking to us. That was Katrina from BBC Scotland News.

84844 is the number to text. Now, Claudia Jones, the woman described as the founding spirit of the Notting Hill Carnival, is to be commemorated with a blue plaque this year. The feminist, journalist and political activist is one of five women whose achievements and legacy will be marked by English heritage. Currently about 14% of the nearly 1,000

blue plaques honour women. Let's find out a bit more about Claudia. I'm joined by freelance journalist and editor of Soho House, Segal Mohammed. Segal, welcome. So your reaction, nice to speak to you. Oh, we'll just sort out your line.

You seem like making sure it's nice and clear so we can hear you. Let's get your reaction to Claudia being given the blue plaque. How would you describe her? Hello, can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. There you are. Nice to see you. How would you describe Claudia Jones? Claudia Jones, for me, is such a monumental part of black history and black British history in general, especially for the Caribbean community, but also in terms of feminism.

Her work is, you know, she dedicated her entire life to the fight against oppression. And she actually started her career really young at the age of 18 when she grew up in Harlem that's where she grew up during the you know the civil rights movement in the US Jim Crow segregation really spurred her kind of passion for trying to make a change and she really used her journalistic skills and literature to do in doing. When she then came over to the UK and she was met with a similar notion of segregation during the Windrush generation, post-war immigration, she then kind of really took it upon herself

to unite the Caribbean community in London. And, you know, she's rewarded for her work in Notting Hill Carnival um she actually was the one who created the first Caribbean Carnival in London which was held in St Pancras and that has today become one of the biggest events in London. I mean it's one another one of those stories that we do on Woman's Hour where you think how do we not know about Claudia Jones but here we are talking about her because what what was her role in bringing the first carnival to London, to Notting Hill?

Yes, I mean, again, it's something it's really, I really found out about her work and just how much she did for the community when I went and did my own research on her. It's not something that's taught in schools. She saw the issues um and the segregation you know she came to London at a time where there was so much hostility between black people white people Irish people and you know she really took it upon herself to create a community to celebrate West Indian culture and you know she founded the first newspaper the West

Indian Gazette which was the first black British newspaper celebrating culture and you know she founded the first newspaper the West Indian Gazette which was the first black British newspaper celebrating culture and kind of bringing over that sense of identity because her thing was you know especially her experience in the US and then coming here is black people being seen as second-class citizens especially black women um so bringing together she you know 19 I think it was yeah 1958 when she did the carnival in St Pancras and then that became just a community-led um organization that kind of just celebrated all of the amazing parts of Caribbean culture and then that has over the years grown into Notting Hill Carnival um and it stands for today, which is celebrating that community and, you know, them being the essence of Black history. What a woman, what an amazing

woman. When did you first become interested in her? I first became interested in her, I want to say I read, I read a tweet about something, Notting Hill Carnival I think back in 2017 um and I had no idea obviously I grew up in West London and I've always known about the carnival I've been going since I was a teenager um but to find out that you know the history behind it and that a woman a black woman spearheaded that because Claudia Jones was also such a force for intersectional feminism you know one of her most famous um essays was published in 1949 and it was um highlighting just how much of the experience the black the woman experiences and how different it is for black women um and that the fact that you can't ever obtain peace while neglecting the needs of women especially those who are oppressed and impoverished so you know she's spoken about it so much I've seen so many clips of her

talking about this how crucial it is for overall peace not just for women. Yeah so you must be absolutely I mean it's just such a moment isn't it to have a blue plaque dedicated to her? Yes I think it's amazing I think you know I think it's one of those things it's just such a moment, isn't it, to have a blue plaque dedicated to her? Yes, I think it's amazing. I think, you know, I think it's one of those things. It's it's a wonderful gesture. But you could also just hope that it means that now black women, not only black women, but black culture in general and history is ingrained in those in conversations around British history, when you talk about British history, acknowledging that Black British history is part of that, I hope that this can be a sign for that. Segal, Mohamed, thank you so much for speaking to me about Claudia Jones this morning. Wonderful to hear her story. What an important woman in British history. Now, lots of you getting in touch with me this morning because we are

discussing the division of chores within the household and we're going to be talking to two experts in just a moment but I feel like we should talk to some of you because I've got a couple of you on the line. Let's speak to Grace. Good morning Grace. Good morning, how are you? I'm very well. Welcome to Woman's Hour Grace. Tell me about the division of labor in your house what's going on um well it's not too bad really my partner's very good he helps out i actually made a policy um between us moving in together and him leaving his um mum that he lived on his own for a couple of years so he really understood what it takes to run a household that is forward planning so you made him leave his mother's house live by himself just so that he could learn to fend for himself

i did yeah i can't take all the credit my mum did have a little bit of a word in my ear but um yeah i really wanted him to understand that uh there's a lot to do and i thought maybe it might help him notice what he's doing around the house. And did it work? Yes yeah he's good he is very good that you know those things he won't do laundry and deep cleaning but if he sees dishes on the side he does understand that they have to go in the dishwasher. So do you think you've got a bit parity do you think it's equal or do you end up doing more? I'd say I definitely do more um so I'm a full-time housekeeper. So I think he maybe thinks that I'm better at it. I also think that men don't always notice what needs doing. I think it's easier for us to see it and to avoid an argument. We just go ahead and just do it.

And what about the mental strain as well? Because it's not just kind of the actual physical chores, is it? It's sort of all the planning and prepping and all the rest of it who does all of that yeah you yeah you have to forward plan everything have they got clothes for the work have they got clothes for work the next day you know is there enough food in the fridge to make dinner um there is lots of lots of forward planning but i i feel sometimes i pass things over onto him it's not so much that he doesn't want to do it he just needs to know what needs to be done. Grace, it's been lovely speaking to you this morning. Thank you very much for the call. I'm going to bring in our experts and we also have another call on the line. Kirsty, I'll be coming to you in just a moment. But first, I'm going to introduce Shireen Kanji, who's Professor of Work

and Organisation at Brunel University, and Oriol Sullivan, Professor of Inequalities of Gender at the Centre for Time Use Research at University College London. Welcome to you both. What is a chore, Aureole? Let's understand what a chore is, first of all. Well, a chore is a very interesting question because we do tend to think of it in terms of the cleaning. That's what first comes to mind, the sort of really dirty, messy, everyday cleaning activities. But in fact, as well, as your previous speaker was saying, a lot of that is actually a lot of the mental energy and the emotional energy that's taken up by the doing of domestic activities is about the planning, the management, the sense of responsibility, the sense that, you know,

you're the one when you see something who actually has a responsibility to clear it up, even though everybody else in the household can see it at the same time. So it's the chores that we commonly think about, who cleans the toilet, which is a big one. But it's also about, you know, that sort of ongoing energy demanding exercise in planning. Yes, Shireen, the mental load. Tell us more about this mental load. Yes, I've been looking into how to measure the mental load with colleagues, Heejung Chung from the University of Kent and Anka Planyol from City University. And it's actually very difficult because this is hidden work. And I think that's why it's quite easy not to recognise that it's going on because it isn't visible. But it causes a huge amount of strain. And I think particularly to women who undertake

it. And the French cartoonist Emma talked about how women were project managers, that actually they were taking on a whole extra job in project management. And she was working in the tech industry. And she said that there were people who had this job of being a project manager. It was a full-time job. And so women were doing this at home but not being recognised for it, in addition to doing tasks. And it's a cause of a lot

of tension within couples when women are not recognised for this doing this. I mean lots of lots of people getting in touch and releasing the tension via Twitter and text this morning mental load someone says I count myself lucky in that my husband does more household chores than I but when it comes to thinking about and planning everything that needs to be done holidays anything to do with the kids or elderly parents planning work on the house etc that all comes down to me and always has done through our 30 years of marriage it's exhausting keeping it all in my head especially going through menopause he doesn't get it he'll do any chores etc I ask him I ask him to that's an interesting one as well isn't it but thinking and planning no that's exactly what Emma says actually that you know if men are asked then

they might do it or they probably will do it but it's the asking where you become the project manager as a woman and then um you're if you have a male partner he's the one who does it he's an underling and that's it sets up a certain dynamic in the relationship when you're always the one telling him to do it. And it might be telling her in your setup. I don't know. Get in touch. I'm going to go to the phone call, phone line now and speak to Kirsty. Hello, Kirsty. Hi, Anita. And tell me about the setup in your household. Well, I think it sounds pretty ideal after listening to some of the stories we've just heard.

In my first marriage, it was the sort of setup that everyone has described. I used to get very resentful because I was responsible for 100% of all the domestic chores, all the DIY, all the domestic admin, all the childcare. And then whatever energy I had left over I spent on on doing my job properly you know my work so what did you do in marriage number two well marriage number two it's never been an issue we're absolute domestic equals I'd say it's not something we really ever discuss I don't ask him to do things because I don't need to. He just looks for them and does them, as do I. And my second husband was the primary carer for his children when they were young.

He loves cooking, excellent at cleaning, brilliant at DIY. He's a keeper. Absolutely. And we, you know, it's never an issue. And I feel it's absolutely equal and very quickly very quickly kirstie is that because you've done something differently or because you've just got someone who's different yeah he's just different kirstie thank you very much for your call um shireen we've got lots of people getting in touch some saying you know my husband won't do

anything or you know it's all on me and some saying actually someone has said let's not make this about men bashing because my husband is fantastic. And, you know, he gets on with that and we have an equal balance in the household. So actually, when it comes to who does the most unpaid labour in the household, what do we know for certain about what's going on? Well, I think we know that there's an enormous amount of variability within couples about the share of domestic labour. And I think that probably couples accept that if you're doing more paid work, then you might do less unpaid work. That's something that's been documented and people are willing to accept it. But I think that there is still a real imbalance. And we saw during COVID that actually at the beginning of COVID, men started doing more housework than they had before.

But women were still taking on the lion's share. And it was particularly bad in couples with really young children, children in the age range zero to five. So we've now seen a reversion to the old pattern. Men did pick up a bit during COVID. They were doing particularly more shopping than they were doing before. And probably that's maybe because of the dangers associated with shopping. And Aureole, I'm just wondering how much of this culture of society

that we have around us pushes these sorts of gender roles in the households so I'm thinking about paternity leave being incredibly short so they men have to go straight back to work after 11 days. Surely that sort of policy measure those sorts of positive policy measures are extraordinarily important and I think there's a sort of long-term interaction between the policy measures that are introduced and the kind of social movements that might be organised around women's liberation and so on, and the day-to-day gender socialisation that goes on in the homes in relation to gender roles and gender expectations. And there is change i would like to to put out into the broader picture it may not help anybody currently but there is over the last 50 years

there has been quite a shift in the proportion of domestic chores that that men pick up well you'd have hoped after 50 years that something would have changed, though, Oriel. Well, yes, but at least it's positive. And there are some people who say that it has now kind of stalled and that unless and until we have more forward thinking policy measures around things like parental leave that you know we've got to a point where men have basically reached the limit of the domestic chores that they're going to be doing and we need some sort of big change. Yeah on that Shireen, exactly how does the workplace have an impact on what people do at home? Yeah well factually first can I just pick up on this point of policy because I think that paternal leave is very important, protected paternal leave because people have made the point to me that actually the arrival of children is a turning

point you know we know that children really intensify the amount of housework and of course child care that goes on and so policy that protects paternal leave is really important because most men and women don't have a lot of experience in looking after young children. But if men take leave early on, then they start to learn what is required in the same way that many women are exposed to the first time to these chores. And I'm glad you asked me about the workplace, because I think that the French cartoonist Emma really picked up on this, how there's a continuity between what goes on in the home and what goes on in the workplace. So it's well documented that women are expected to do a lot of caring tasks at work. You know, they are the ones who organise the cakes, they are the ones who checks in with people, check in with people to ask them how they are. And all these activities are expected of women, but they are devalued.

Women are devalued because they undertake these activities that are considered to be quite feminine. And I don't think you can really separate the home from the workplace. So what's going on in the home is also crossing over to the workplace and vice versa. So you're having to organise parties and whatnot at home and also doing it in the workplace. But what about this culture of staying late at work? And if you leave early, then you're frowned upon. That doesn't really help the home set up either, does it? Yeah, in my work with Emma Cusack, and we found that was, we interviewed professional women who had left their jobs after having children.

They'd gone back to work and then left their jobs. And they actually found that time was one of the key points for them. They were working very long hours. They were working all the time they were in the office. But somehow it doesn't seem enough. And there are many studies looking at the gender wage gap, which show that really high wages are associated with working very long hours. We have barely scratched the surface here you're both

Oriol, Shireen you're both going to have to come back to continue this discussion I know Oriol you're doing a survey in March to see what has happened post the pandemic and what how the roles have changed or not changed so we will get you back once you've done that research. I'm going to end with one of your messages lots of you have got in touch which i thank you for it's always great when you do get in touch with the program uh there are no household chores the main rule is not to do the stuff that isn't your job i have two teenage sons they know where the washing machine is they know how to cook a meal they know where the hoover is and how it works why because i don't do stuff for them doesn't mean mean I don't do my share. It's just not

going to be me picking up the wet towels. Join me tomorrow for another Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. One, two, one, that's work. What would happen if you tried to dig up all the bad things you've ever buried? Anything I tell you is a ghost of truth. This is a deathbed tape from a man who witnessed a crime so appalling that he wants us to dig it up. You know what you should have to do?

Put a ticker digger and dig it up. We're Dan Ashby and Lucy Taylor. And from BBC Radio 4, this is Buried. The story of the secret dumping of a million tonnes of waste near a UK city. We're sitting on a ticking time bomb. All I kept saying to me was, there's cover-ups, there's cover-ups. Subscribe now to Buried on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.