Woman's Hour - Laura Dockrill, female surgical teams, Chinese #MeToo

Episode Date: June 19, 2024

A survey published today by Women in Football shows that 88% of women working in the industry believe they have to work harder than men to achieve the same recognition and benefits - the research also found that 74% of men agree with them. It also found that 89% of women working in the game have experienced discrimination in the workplace. Nuala speaks to Yvonne Harrison, Chief Executive Officer Women in Football.Can you ever really be just best friends with the love of your life? Laura Dockrill talks to Nuala about the thrills and awful heartache of first love, the inspiration for her first adult novel, ‘I love you, I love you, I love you.’Having more women on surgical teams is associated with fewer complications for patients and a lower rate of morbidity after 90 days, a major study from Canada has found. The lead author of the study Dr Julie Hallet explains the findings and Nuala is joined by Ms Tamzin Cuming, consultant colorectal surgeon and Chair of the Royal College of Surgeons of England's Women in Surgery Forum. . On Friday a prominent activist in China’s #MeToo movement, Sophia Huang, was sentenced to five years in prison for "subversion against the state”. As a journalist, Sophia reported ground-breaking stories about sexual abuse victims and gender discrimination. Journalists Jessie Lau and Lijia Zhang join Nuala live in the studio to bring us up to date with the latest in her case and discuss the wider experience of women in China.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Laura Northedge

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Yeah, just 60 minutes of Woman's Hour today. Thanks again to those of you who contributed yesterday for our 90-minute election debate with senior women from seven political parties across Great Britain. If you missed it, you can listen back on BBC Sounds and on iPlayer. If you'd like to see the Woman's Hour studio, there is a link to it on our website. But to today, first love.

What comes to mind when I say those two words? Nostalgia, a hint of remembering heartbreak, maybe joy? Laura Dockrell is here in our Woman's Hour studio. She's been thinking and writing about it. So we have now a book of fiction, but some of it is based on her own story. Laura falls in love with her best friend. We'll hear how that went. But is that something that ever happened to you? Did they know? I want to know. Maybe your best friend fell in love with you. Maybe you married your best friend. Or maybe you had to break up the friendship due to unrequited longing. You can text the programme. The number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you

can email us through our website. For WhatsApp, so a message or a voice note, that number is 03700 100 444. Also, a fascinating study out. If a surgical team has more than 35% women, the patient has a better outcome. How can that be? We're going to drill down into the details this hour

and also we'll speak about the Chinese activist charged with inciting subversion of state power after she became a symbol of the country's feminist movement. Let me begin with a stat that has been released this morning by the organisation Women in Football. 88% of women working in the industry believe they have to work harder than men to achieve the same recognition and benefits. Maybe not surprising, but maybe this is. The research also found that 74% of men agree with them. It's all part of a report into discrimination against women in their careers

in the sport and also that the numbers are on the rise. So the latest survey found that 89% have experienced discrimination in the workplace, up from 82% in 2003 and 66% four years ago, so quite a jump. Women in Football, the organisation, aims

to improve women's representation at all levels of the game by challenging discrimination, also lobbying for change in the industry. I'm joined by their CEO this morning, Yvonne Harrison. Welcome to Women's Hour, Yvonne. Thank you very much. So let's talk about this survey.

More than a thousand women responded, I understand. Tell me exactly who's been surveyed. What do they do? What are their roles in the industry? Yeah, so there's a whole range of people. We've had a significant proportion of women respond. A number of those are members of Women in Football. We've had a smaller number of men and non-binary people respond.

We have people at different stages of their career. So from early career right through to people with 20 years plus in the industry. We have people in broadcast roles, in working in clubs, on the pitch, off the pitch, in refereeing, in national governing bodies, in corporate world supporting football. So a real mix of kind of experiences and career longevity to give us a good rounded picture of what it's like to be a woman working in the industry. But you know some might look at those figures and find them very disappointing they are rising as a percentage but it seems to be happening at the same time as we've seen so much more visibility of women in football. Yeah that's right and you know the trend is worrying in terms of some of these figures are rising and it paints a relatively bleak picture, if I'm honest, in terms of what it can be like for women working in the industry.

That said, you know, the visibility of women in the game and women's football in particular has never been as strong as it has been. And we also found in the survey a real sense of optimism. So 85% of female respondents said they were optimistic about the opportunities for women in football and that they will get better. And 64% of women in football members believe that football is an area, a sector where women can excel. So really a tale of two hearts in terms of these survey results. I've heard that term used a number of times over the Euros in the past few days. But what sort of discrimination are we talking about specifically? Yeah, so off that 89%, the biggest ways that that discrimination is presenting itself,

according to our respondents, was in terms of sexism. So 53% of women working in football are experiencing sexism. that's gone up since last year. Do we know what that means? I mean it varies in terms of language that's being used and certainly elements of you know you're operating in this sorry you're operating in the we take your time it's all good so um specifically um a lot of it is related to language um and subtleties around that language specifically uh in relation to um gender in addition to that you know sexist banter and jokes in the workplace is something that is recorded by respondents quite a lot it happens happens regularly. 60%, 69% of members are experiencing this. The other side of that is probably more extreme,

where 19% of women working in football have experienced sexual harassment at work, and that's at one percentage point. So there's a whole scale of how women are experiencing discrimination, but the fact is everything is kind of going up. And that is worrying, both from a, you know, an experience of women working in the industry, but how many women are we going to retain in an industry where that's the norm? You talk about Yvonne there, I'm just thinking, you talk there though, about people seeing it, having a note of optimism and a place where they can work or have a future.

And you talk about retention there. How do you understand it then that these percentages are going up if in fact you're also getting reports of optimism and hope for women in the industry? Yeah, I, you know, I look at that. And when I speak to our members, we we hear a lot about the camaraderie of women working in the game, you know, we have nearly 10,000 members of women in football and being part of that community gives you that sense of optimism, you know, you're not alone, you've got people who have got your back, who are willing to support you to champion you, you know, to make you aware that actually, you know, you're not going mad. Those things are not okay. And there are things that you can do, whether that's legal advice or whether it's calling out some of those behaviours or asking for support from, you know, male colleagues within your business to challenge some of those

behaviours that perhaps people have felt are normal and acceptable over the years, but maybe now are not. So with this, obviously, they have, the women have reported in your survey of what they have experienced. Are they taking it further? You know, you talk about it being called out. I mean, are there repercussions? Yeah, so it's interesting, really. I mean, we offer free legal advice via our legal partner, which is really important. And women do take that. One of the interesting statistics that came out of the survey that is of women that't happy with that situation, actually what's happening as a result. And that's the real call to the football industry. You've got to listen to women and you have to take action because without that, that optimism is going to plummet. Of course, there was the very high profile story of Luis Rubiales, former president of the Royal Spanish Football Federation. He has an upcoming sexual harassment trial. But do cases like that being in the news or in the headlines make a difference? They do make a difference because what it does, it sends a message that there are consequences for behaviours, particularly at that level. It provides organisations like ourselves with an opportunity to highlight that this is an ongoing systemic problem. It's not a one-off.

Within that Women's World Cup, there are a number of teams that came out with issues, whether that was around coaches, whether that was around not being paid, and so on and so forth. And that's why we launched the Open Doors Ag agenda on the back of the Women's World Cup, because we have to see a fairer opportunity for women working in the game on and off the pitch. And in doing that, we have to challenge the governance structures that exist because groupthink is not OK. And that lack of diversity of thought in some of these leadership positions almost perpetuate the culture that this is just how football is. That's not how business operates and football needs to catch up to that. Well, I think what I'm hearing from you is that you're not being listened to by some of the

football authorities. I think there's an element of we're not being listened to by enough. We have great support from a number of organisations that work with us and are really trying to understand how to be better allies to women in the industry. But we need all football clubs, all football stakeholders to recognise that women are half of the population and deserve to be working in a space which they choose. You know, sometimes there's a growing narrative that women,

oh, women can go and work in women's football because women's football is growing now. So you go and work there and leave men's football to us. And we have to say, you know what? Women should be able to work where they choose with the skills that they have on merit. And that's what we want to see. So yeah, we have great traction from a number of, you know,

leagues, stakeholders within the industry, but we need to increase that scale and we need to turn words into more positive actions. And I do want to say we have approached the FA for a response to your survey. We haven't received a response yet. I will bring it up again before the end of the programme. I also, I was watching get it before the end of the programme. I also I was watching this week, the Euros are taking place of course and England are set to play Denmark tomorrow but I was struck by Denmark's

Euro 2024 squad. They have refused a pay rise to ensure their female counterparts earn equal basic pay when they play for the national team. Your thoughts on that? Could something like that be possible in the UK?

I think, yeah, it's around, that's just a great show of allyship. You know, men typically earn more money from playing club football than women. National team is a way to sort of balance some of that out. And, you know, I know conversations like that will have happened within the England national team as well. It's really important. And I think it sets the tone of that respect and that value and recognising there isn't equity at the moment in the pay structures. And this is a way that they can contribute to that and really show support to their female colleagues.

Yeah, interesting. Let's see what happens with the game tomorrow. You mentioned a difficulty of women staying within the industry. Is there evidence of retention issues? Only anecdotally. It's going to be an interesting one. So moving forward,

there will be workforce data collected from all clubs, which is part of a new move from the FA. And I think that's really positive because at the minute there is no benchmark. We don't know how many women work in the industry. And it's something we've lobbied for for a long time. So to see that come into effect this coming season will be really positive. From here on in, we'll be able to see where women are in the industry,

at what levels and what those attrition rates are. Yvonne Harrison, just before I let you go, is there a difference? Because you say women are often told, you know, work within women's football, so to speak, and leave the men's football, the men to work in the men's football part of the industry. Is there more prestige working in men's football than women's? I think that's subjective. You know, some people might perceive that. But for other people, you know,

women's football presents an absolute opportunity because it's being created as we go. And there is such a fantastic atmosphere and environment and there's lots of energy. So I think that's a personal thing where you sort of place that, if I'm being brutally honest. Yes, we like brutal honesty here on Woman's Hour. Thank you very much for joining us, Yvonne.

Harrison is the CEO of Women in Football. That report just out really in the past hour or so. So Yvonne is going to have a busy day ahead of her. Thanks so much for joining us for a few of those minutes. I was asking, you know, was your first love your best friend? You know, was it reciprocated or unrequited love?

A couple of messages coming in already. 84844. I married my best friend. What we know about each other means there's no point in keeping secrets. He is still my best friend after 30 years. My children now think they should find a best friend that they could marry. That's from Melanie. Here's another from Amy. My first

love was a school friend. We'd known each other since we were 8 and 10. We got together when we were 16 and 18. It didn't last long, but it was a lovely first experience and I remember him fondly. I want to hear them all. Get in touch at BBC Woman's Hour or through our website or

indeed WhatsApp. Why am I talking about all this? Why am I talking about first love and best friends? What I want to know is the feeling like unforgettable or regrettable? And was the love reciprocated? Of course, that's often where we get into the details. Did you fall for your best friend? Did it work out? My next guest sitting in the studio with me is author Laura Dockrell. She's written her first novel for adults. She has previously written young adult and children's books.

Her memoir, What Have I Done? Adult with Postpartum Psychosis. Maybe you remember that. But this new book goes back to girlhood. I love you, I Love You, I Love You is about a girl, Ella, who loves a boy, Lo. And here's Laura reading the bit where Ella sees Lo for the first time. And that's when the world around me drowns out and all I hear are the rising power chords of Lenny Kravitz's Fly Away and the boy better run for his life. I am on.

With just a look, I fall through the ground where I split, come undone like a seed and burst from my shell. His eyes trigger a network of roots and shoots that tangle and connect with a force strong enough to light up a city with full power. Ping, ping, ping! My walls, with a wrecking ball of a look from him, pound down to a grit and I'm lost in the thunderous dust, inhaling only this new person, this starburst galaxy, this riptide, this hurricane and yet as sweet and as delicious as crisp cherry aid. He is so fit. Everybody around me is talking, but I'm in my head because see, he is there now, waiting, chill as hell, like he was there all along with an icebox of snacks and beer, camping out in the canyons of my mind. And opposite me is Laura Dockrell, listening to yourself.

That was Ella falling for low. And this is fiction. But was it like that for you when you first met your husband and I will give full disclosure for our listeners your partner is Hugo White formerly of the indie rock band the Maccabees yes um embarrassingly yes um I think you know this is partly why I wanted to write the book was that I just thought I thought love really wasn't for me I was so as a teenager I was always friend zoning myself, could never find the boy zone. And I guess with crushing insecurity

and all those things, you know, just didn't think that would be on my radar. And then annoyed when I met this really lovely guy. What age were you? I was 14 in Wandsworth, South London. We made mixtapes for each other,

love letters, mixtapes and letters that I would spray with white mask body shop. Don't worry about it. No expense spared. In the hope that that would entrance him. Did it work? Well, I would set him up with my friends. I would do all those things.

It's just basically self-sabotage. Cut to age 19. I'm standing in a shower, wearing a bikini for the first time in my life. Drunk, unfortunately. I tell him that I love him and he says nothing back. And we do not see each other for 10 years. 10 years.

And now we're married with a baby. What? What? I know. I know. Now we're married. Yeah. So when we actually did hook up at age 30 and see each other after all this time you know

he'd been on tour and had had success with his band and everything and I just felt like my life had stood still you know I was in the same house doing the same job um why would he find me and my miniature life interesting but he'd kept everything every little ring pull from a coke you know coke can and letter and I had nothing show him. So I thought I better write a book about this. So why didn't it happen back then? You obviously, you know, held a candle for him or a flame for him, however you want to describe it. Oh, there was a candle.

Yeah, or maybe it was a Roman candle. A bonfire. Exactly. But he didn't reciprocate at that point when you were in the shower drunk in the bikini. No. Which you would think that might have been a moment. That might have been the moment.

For anybody that knows Hugo, you know, he really is the most kindest, gentlest person. And I genuinely think he was shocked. You know, we'd been very close for a good five years at this point. And I think he was like, you hid that well sort of thing. Maybe didn't take me seriously. Certainly didn't want to take advantage

or anything like that. And so he said nothing. I just remember him saying nothing but then you know there were very famous bands touring you'd hear their music no doubt as you went about life and so yeah there was a bill in my house where he you know we weren't speaking and it would be his music would be in the cool down to my like workout classes or I'd be at a friend's party and his song would come on. And, you know, that is such a nuanced thing where they're everywhere. And with fame, you know, I've had a few friends that have done well in acting or music or whatever, various things.

And that feeling of them being everywhere and everyone feeling connected to them like they know them and they're nowhere to be seen in your life. And you have this intimacy with them that you know what they're truly like but they you know you're not in their address book you're not in their phone book and that feeling is is something I wanted to try and put into well you did I mean reading it oh god the love struck teenager how painful it's so painful it's almost like an illness for your character Ella yes. Yes, it is like an illness. You know, having written a lot for children's books, you know, when I visit schools and the feelings they feel at that time is so huge, you know.

And I never want to be that person when, you know, when a kid, you know, my little boy is six and a half. Someone just told him yesterday they loved him. There's an instruction that they're getting married tomorrow and he has to dress handsome. It's like for me to just demolish that and say that's not real or it won't last you know actually these relationships they're what shape us they're what teach us how to love how to feel empathy and kindness and really it's a friendship book and it doesn't go away you know the response from the book has almost been as strong as the post-partum psychosis book in the sense that people as you've just been you know gorgeous hearing these stories have going, I felt that as well. I had that.

And though, you know, be careful when you're reaching out to the people from your past, you know. Was that difficult for you in the sense, obviously, you had to get Hugo on board, I imagine. Yeah. And you're obviously incredibly honest and frank. And we can talk about postpartum psychosis your the memoir you had on that as well what have I done uh but you're kind of putting yourself out there or how much of you is in it I mean I'm thinking it's you when I'm reading Ella I don't know whether I'm right about that yeah a lot of me is in there and I think that is the the journey of a writer is that is our job we

communicate our lived experience we're the ones that eats the poisonous berries to tell you what the path ahead is like you know in return and say yeah I got sick don't eat those berries love sick got love sick boy but um she's there but I I was really hard on myself as a teenager which has been surprising so many of my friends felt the same way oh I'm not good enough I can't do this and it comes up a lot in my children's work and work for young adults and I suppose I wanted to come full circle really being in the guilt and shame the heartache of writing about the postpartum psychosis was such a harsh brutal place to live in and write in for so many years and I do see these books as sisters

this is sort of the light you know there's light and shade with the two I don't write about the psychosis in the book but you know Hugo is a real reminder that life for all of its injustices can be a really good place. You know, he, we've been through a lot together as teenagers as well. And he's taught me a lot about compassion and kindness. And our friendship is really what was the medicine that fixed me when I was sick, too. Oh, you know, you were talking there about your little kid who, you know, who's getting married tomorrow He is After this I've got to sling it to the playground

But you know with teenage love like that you experienced when you were 14, 15 and I know that was unrequited but let's say it was Alright, don't need to rub the salt in the wound It was you that wrote the book about it It was so very unrequited you were rejected You didn't even let the cat salt in the wound. All right. It was you that wrote the book about it. Sorry, unrequited. You were rejected. You didn't even let the cat out of the bag at that stage.

But parents often try and close down young love, you know. Yes, yes. They're often like if they have a teenager that's with this steady boyfriend, girlfriend, partner. They're urging them to stop it, go out with other people other people shut it down I wonder how you feel about that I just feel I suppose that these feelings as I said you know they are the things that that shape us and create who we are an expression you know it gets so oppressed and I think if we don't act how we feel you know and you've got to rattle through those cringe moments and and feel um so I I let my little boy love you know I don't mind that he's you know

I've seen some of the illustrations of what his future holds drawn by the girls in his class um and I'm okay with those but I I you know love you know we sometimes especially living in London there's such coldness sometimes and opening our arms and holding each other I quit Instagram at the beginning of the year and I'm feeling so much more sensitive to the world around me and wanting to tell people personally, pick up the phone, write letters, buy little presents,

tell people that I truly care about them because I do think it is needed. And those nostalgic, simpler times, you know, where you just spend ages crushing over one letter, line someone's written. The letter, you know, there is in it. Ella, you know, finds herself drawing herself as a bride.

But it brought me back. I found an old school book when I was home the last time. And I had done like in bubble writing the name of my betrothed, as I expected. And you know, bubble writing takes time. You were meditating on that person. It was on every third page of my English book. I obviously was not paying attention. Do you remember the love the love math like the love maths you do the love calculator you'd write your name and their name and work out what the percentage of your love spell was you

know i love all that yeah eight four eight four four if if this is uh triggering in a good way or just my phone number i want to hear them too why Text my phone number. Why not? Get in touch at BBC Women's Hour. It's another way to do it. And, you know, we have touched on their postpartum psychosis. You know, I read some of what you went through. Absolutely shocking. It's something you've shared widely. You've written a book about it to try and help others, I suppose,

that might be eating the poison berries, to use some of your words. How are you doing now? I mean, you look amazing. You look like a vision of joy. It's because I'm wearing Crocs and my life's so pure and easy now, that soft life. Why was I putting my foot in all these hard shoes? Yeah, I'm well, thank you for asking. So it's six and a half years on since being ill and writing this book really does feel like, you know, it's nice. It's so nice to be in a sweet spot now where we're talking about lovely things because I was in the hard stuff for a while.

Do you mind giving people just a brief? In 2018, after my little boy Jet was born and following on from a traumatic labour, I was hit with a debilitating mental illness known as postpartum psychosis. I'd never experienced any mental illness before, so I couldn't qualify it, couldn't quantify it. And yeah, three weeks, when my little boy was just three weeks, I woke up on my first Mother's Day in a psychiatric ward, separated from him and spent, well, I had to begin my life again, spent the next two weeks doing group therapy in a general psych ward and rebuilding from there. But, you know, I'm so grateful. You know, I've learned so much from that experience. I feel so much more plugged into life. And in my 30s, I think that's a really cool thing to learn. I can teach my son about mental illness, teach him to ask for help if he needs it. This would never have been things that were in my language.

You went into a different world. I went into a different world. Yes, I did. And the shame was still probably the worst symptom of all. You know, it's like, oh, does that mean I'm a bad mom? Does that mean I don't care? Am I not kind? Am I unable to love?

Am I broken? How am I going to come back from this? How am I going to write back from this how am I going to write books and I can't even go to Tesco's again let alone hold my little boy but as I said you know trusting trusting Hugo and the people around me that have been there and the book it really is about Hugo but it's fiction as well it's about the friends that have I'm still best mates with my friends since I was three my friends from school that sense of identity that I'd spent all of that time building, it wasn't for waste. So basically fill those diaries because you're in there, you know, that is your inner self, those teenage diaries.

And in what many of our listeners might consider an unusual twist in this story, not just that your husband is from the Maccabees, but the friend who spoke to Hugo saying, you know, maybe something is up, that Laura isn't well, was Adele. Yes, that Adele. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that again was a,

all those, as I said, the nuance, like all those years of just, you know, talking rubbish on the sofa, it does count for something because when you're sick, someone can know in a flicker of your eye that, okay, this person is unwell it's our our bond i think our sister bond is is what got us there so um yeah it's so important to ask for help and say how you're feeling even in the best ways you can

i just had to put to one side you know what if this sounds crazy you know i'm doing speech marks what if this sounds crazy what this sounds mad or wild just say You know, it's the bravest thing I've ever done was asking for help. She was able to see what doctors and professionals couldn't see. Because she was your friend. Because she was my friend. Also a mega superstar.

What was that like? I mean, having the husband that was on the billboard, et cetera. Yeah, exactly. And on people's, I don't know, rock t-shirts. And then you've got Adele who explodes into the stratosphere of fame. Oh my gosh. I had a know, rock t-shirts. And then you've got Adele who explodes into the stratosphere of fame. Oh my gosh.

I had a moment, honestly, where I was heartbroken once by Hugo and I sat down and the guy sitting opposite me was wearing a Maccabees t-shirt. And I was like, this just cannot be real. Is this a surreal world I'm living in? And the same with Adele. You know, her success has been absolutely incredible and it's been so joyous for us to witness. You know, I went to the Brit school.

Luckily, it was an amazing place to grow up. And, you know, many of my friends, I had another friend that was an actor. We fell out for six months and he was everywhere, you know, in prosthetics costume, you know, being the goblin, you know. Why is this happening? So, but, you know, I'm proud of us all. It's been a wonderful thing to be a part of and I mentioned they are famous

but last week we heard the results of the Women's Prize for Fiction and you were one of the judges which is you know you have arrived obviously as well and you were tasked but of course not without hard work you were tasked with reading

almost a hundred books I read quite a few for Women's Hour but I have to say I'm in awe how did you do it no watching you work you're a pilot up there you're amazing with DJ and pilot um yeah it was the one of the best things I've ever done what a privilege to read all of these books written by women without interlude by a man whatsoever and consciously doing that I did not prepare myself for the amount of pain that was in this these texts um I would look back and check the date like how was this only 10 years ago or 50 years ago this feels like

it's in the ancient past you know and the crossovers that the books you know they're global but yet there'll be so many crossovers that you can relate to even now um it has I mean now I was like imminently my books being published I'm, I really wanted the chance to write it again after reading all of these incredible books. Because your mind is, my brain is bulging. Like it makes you annoyed and jealous and terrified and envious. But then you equally want to get to your desk and write everything up. The judging process itself was unbelievable. Those women that were on the panel were just out of this world.

And the conversations we would have, I'm just going to, I miss them already and will cherish them forever. It's such an important prize. Shall we read some of the comments coming in? Yes. Oh my gosh, yes.

We need some popcorn. Exactly. Age 15, my first love went to the boys' school in a nearby town in rural Ireland. Finally, he asked me out on sports day. Beautiful, innocent, walks by the lakes over the summer talking

before mobile phones and social media. And that's from G. John says, my first love was at 59. It lasted 11 months as I messed up. I believed I had been in love before, but meeting this lady changed everything. Now 60 I am heartbroken every

day and miss this amazing woman more than you can ever imagine. There is always hope. Here's another one from Den. Hi there. I was best friends with Lucy for about five years. Then we got together and have been married for over 18 and a half years. So it definitely works for

us. So there are people who marry their best friend and there is a happy ever after. There is. There's love to be had, yes. And we're we're now married! We're the six year old, yes. Listen Laura, it's been so

wonderful having you in. Of course your previous book was, if people wanted to read more on that in postpartum, Psychosis, What Have I Done? But the new one is, I Love You, I Love You, I Love You, which I have that song in my head ever since I started reading it. I love the way you're doing that undulating as well, in that little gorgeous cardigan.

It's quite a, we need that on a gift, please. Little visual, yeah. Just also for people who says you look like a vision of joy, you're bright yellow We need that on a gift, please. Little visual, yeah. Just also for people who says you look like a vision of joy, you're bright yellow, what would we call it, coordinates.

PJs, no? Very beautiful. And the Crocs. Thanks for coming in to the Woman's Hour studio. We will see you again. Thank you. Keep them coming.

84844 if you would like to get in touch. Now, on Friday, last Friday, a prominent activist in China's MeToo movement, Sophia Huang Zhuang, was sentenced to five years in prison for subversion, excuse me, subversion against the state. Her friend, the male labour activist, that's Huang Zhanbing,

was also sentenced to three years and six months. However, the court did not detail why they were charged with subversion against the state. Sophia is known for her reporting on the ground, groundbreaking stories about sexual abuse victims and also on gender discrimination. The two people were detained in 2021. Last year, they underwent a closed-door trial. You might remember in 2022,

there was a BBC Eye documentary that said that Sophia is among the tens of thousands of people in China being detained in a wider state, cracked down on activists in recent years. I'm joined now by the freelance human rights journalist, Jessie Lau, who did that investigation in 2022, and also the journalist and feminist writer, Ligia Zhichuang, who has interviewed Sophia in the past. They're both with me here in the Woman's Hour studio. Welcome to you both.

Thank you. Thanks for having us. Ligia, let me begin with you. For people that are not familiar with Sophia and her case. Right. Okay. So her Chinese name is Huang Xueqing. Her English name is Sophie. She rose to become a prominent activist during the Me Too movement. And in 2018, she created a social media platform to report on sexual harassment. And so she therefore gave a voice to the victims. I'm sure Jesse will talk more about that. And in 2019, she went to Hong Kong.

She participated in the pro-democracy movement there and reported it. So she was then arrested and released after a few months. So she's already on the government blacklist. And in September 2021, on the very day she was due to fly to the UK to study, she had received a Chivalry Scholarship. She was arrested. And so it then led to what we heard happening last Friday, which was a sentence of five years. Well, let me bring you in here, Jessie. Tell me about her work with the MeToo movement in China. inception. So in addition to covering the most high profile cases, and conducting research, as Lijuan mentioned, into sexual harassment and discrimination in the workplace, she was also one of the first women to bravely share her own experiences of being sexually harassed by a colleague while on a business trip. And so I think it's her tenacity, her character as a journalist

and an advocate, and her powerful journalism is something that has really inspired a lot of people in the movement and a lot of Chinese women. And in addition to her feminist work, she's also won multiple awards for her human rights reporting. And she very much shed a lot of light onto marginalized communities in China. How would you describe the Me Too movement in China? Because when I had a look, I saw everything from stalled feminist movement to that it's thriving online. How do you see it? Sure. I mean, I think China in recent years has experienced a phenomenal feminist awakening, unlike anything that's ever been seen before. And so I think feminism has emerged in the Me Too movement in particular as one of the most dynamic and biggest social movements to come out of China in recent years. And unfortunately, because of this, it's increasingly been seen as a threat to the Chinese Communist Party and also social stability.

And because of this, the government has cracked down on feminist organizing and gender-based advocacy, both online and offline. And at the same time, because China is facing this huge demographic crisis in the sense that you have plummeting birth rates, aging population and also a slowing economy, that in recent years, the government has been really trying to push a more sexist propaganda to try to push women back into traditional roles in society. And spoiler alert, it's not really working. And that's because in China today, and it's really much related to the Me Too movement as well, but China women, they have much more freedom and control over their lives than in any previous generations. Many are very highly educated compared to previous

counterparts. A lot of them have contributed to the workplace. And they're very aware of gender dynamics compared to in the past, and therefore a lot less susceptible to this sort of misogynistic propaganda. And so they're very empowered to exercise their own bodily autonomy and take control of their own bodies and resisting. It's so interesting. I was reading an article in The New York Times that talked about working women that have one child. And, you know, the government is pushing them to have more, but they're like, no way. And it's interesting to me because there was a one child policy for so long. But then once it was lifted for other reasons, people are like, I don't want to have more children for some of the reasons that you lay out there, Jessie. But Lija, going back to Sophia, I mentioned subversion was one of the issues that was talked about. What else have the Chinese authorities said? So the court documents

regarding her crimes, from what I can gather, are actually quite vague. But according to her supporters, she was punished for holding regular gatherings at home. Is that illegal? Well, it is not really a crime, but they got together regularly to talk about rights issues, gender issues and other social issues. So that because she, as I mentioned, she was already on the blacklist.

And the one on the also, I need to explain a bit about the background. So Xi Jinping come to power in 2013. So since then, he has tightened social control. So the space for civil society, for civil liberty has shrunk. And so we saw a stream of human rights lawyers, journalists, outspoken intellectuals, even business people have been jailed. human rights lawyers, journalists, outspoken intellectuals, even business people have been jailed.

Because this trial of Sophia's, which was in September, was a closed-door hearing. Yeah. And you talk about the scant details that there are in the actual court papers. Is that common? All trial dissidents are done behind closed doors because the authorities, they want to keep it, they do not want to attract attention, they want to keep a low profile. You've interviewed Sophia before, I understand.

I have never met her, but we have quite a few mutual friends and I interviewed, we had quite a few exchange of messages and I interviewed her. And she struck me, my impression is that she's a really pleasant person. She's super smart. Do you think she understood the dangers? But also she's determined in champion for women's rights. What might happen to her? I think she, well, that's a big question. So she was sentenced, just to remind our listeners, to five years in prison.

Yes. And I also need to remind our listeners, she has been, since September 2021, she has been in detention. I mean, would they consider that she has done two and a half years? That will be taken into consideration. But anyway, what I'm trying to say is that this sentencing shows to me that the crackdown on dissent in China has intensified. So before, I think she would more likely get a charge like called picking quarrels and making troubles.

But now she was charged. Picking quarrels, that troubles but now she she was picking quarrels that's a charge yes yes a very like my friend uh the blind lawyer to grunting he was also charged that with picking quarrels yeah picking quarrels at one point yes you know it's because i'm hearing the two tracks of like this crackdown that you were talking about there al Ligia. But Jessie, you were talking about this uprising instead of feminism, some sparked by the Me Too movement. Do you feel that women speak openly in society with their name attached

about sexual harassment, for example, or gender discrimination? Yes, I think, you know, even when the government is censoring these discussions and cracking down on these spaces, I mean, when you have, you know, women who are aware of these issues and have been resisting and talking about these issues, they are still going to be discussing feminism and these topics in their own time. And actually, there was a great piece in the New York Times recently talking about how women in Shanghai are actually creating these ad hoc spaces for women to discuss misogyny in Chinese culture.

So they're hosting like salon discussions, you know, feminist bookstores, they're screening documentaries by Chinese filmmakers. And so you see that discourse very much live. And also women are speaking out online, even despite the censorship. But I think most importantly, and what's perhaps harder to crack down on, is women actually just making personal decisions about their own body. That's small in the domestic sphere, changing their behavior. Yes, I totally agree. And I just want to say that I think the MeToo movement, so-called MeToo movement, did not develop into a full-fledged movement because of crackdown. But I think that what happened has made more women more aware of this kind of issues. has become quite hard to be a feminist. For example, feminist in Chinese is called nüquan.

So now it is still called nüquan as the original is the female rights. Now it's the female fists. So the authorities try to label women. Female fists. Fists. Like their hands that are fighting, boxing. But they try to say they are troublemakers.

It's a language interest. They are trying to say they are troublemakers. It's a language, interesting. They are trying to say those feminists have been under hostile Western influence. And is there this uprising of feminism that you speak about, Ligia, is there a spread across generations? Because, Jessie, you're younger that you talk about some of the things that you're seeing. Do you feel it has moved, Lidia, to, I don't know, Jessie's mum or grandmother? It's led by urban educated women. Younger?

Yes, younger. But they are better educated. They're more aware, international. They are more internet savvy. And I think even in the face of the crackdown, I think the everyday feminism will continue and hopefully grow. Jessie, anything to add? of the MeToo movement is really inspiring and incredible to watch as a journalist as well. And it's very moving to see women continuing to speak out, not just within China, but many of them are international students in Britain. You can see Chinese feminists protesting in London and in many other countries. And I think they're very much keeping the movement alive, both within China and outside its borders. Really interesting. And of course, you can catch Jessie's documentary from 2022, but it gives some of the background of what Sophia has gone through.

That's Jessie Lau. And thank you for coming in. BBC iDocumentary is where to look. And Lija Zhuang, who has interviewed Sophia in the past. Thank you both for coming into the Woman's Hour studio. I appreciate it. Thank you for having us. Thank you.

Now, back to some of the best friends in love. Let's see. I have a 16-year-old and have observed parents offer friends around me interfering or trying to stop their relationships. My daughter met a lovely boy at 15 and they're completely in love. They're a very good match,

so why would I stand in the way of that? I don't know where it will lead, but who is to say it won't last? My mother was 15 and is still with my dad. My brother and his wife were 16. I think it's wonderful. Here's another one. I met my best friend when I was 14. He was my first for everything. First kiss, first sexual partner, etc. I count myself very lucky that 26 years later, wow, two marriages and one divorce with other people between us, we both love one another more deeply than ever. We taught each other how to love other people well,

and we talk on the phone every day. We'll probably never end up together, but this is love which transcends the boundaries of conventional relationships. We both feel very lucky to have each other. Keeping this anonymous, don't blame you, for privacy. Here's one more. I fell in love with my best friend, Ben, a curator. I'm an artist, five years ago.

I was terrified of losing our friendship, but it was worth risking as I knew he was the one. I told him, and without hesitation, we held hands and never looked back. Years on, we're married with a house and two dogs. You never expect them to be in your hometown, right in front of your eyes all along. That one from Sophie, keep them coming, 84844. Now, on to surgery. If you've had surgery,

do you have any idea what the gender makeup of the team was that operated on you? And I ask because a new study has found that when the number of women on surgical teams within a hospital reached 35%, there was a 3% reduction in serious complications, and I'm including death in that. The research was published in the British Journal of Surgery last month. It looked at more than 700,000 operations performed at 88 hospitals. This is in Ontario, Canada. They're all major operations where patients have to spend

at least a night in hospital. The lead researcher is Julie Hallé. She's surgeon and associate professor of surgery at the University of Toronto. And she told us about their findings and why the makeup of operating rooms has an impact on how patients fare after surgery. Let's listen. What we wanted to look at is the impact of the entire team.

So the 35% is for all anesthesiologists and surgeons in the hospital in the year that somebody is operated on. It's not necessarily the people that are going to be in the operating room with one patient, but it's really having this work culture, work environment, you know, policies, pathways, processes that are all influenced by a team that is more diverse that we believe provides this diversity bonus. So it's at a higher level than the individual physician. If you have only one or two individuals from a minority group within a team, they may not feel like they have the room or the ability to contribute their unique perspectives to the team or to speak up.

And so below a certain threshold, you don't really bear the benefits of having more diverse people in any type of team. You need to reach that critical mass for those individuals to truly be able to contribute. And what's interesting is this concept of critical mass has been known and studied for a while in other fields like business, industry, education, music, or even law law and in those fields they also found that at critical mass it's at about one-third so in our study the 35 percent was really identified by examining the data and that was a caught up that was defined by the data but it also has some face validity in that it is very similar to the one that was identified in other fields. In general, any reduction in those major complications, from my perspective, is

significant. We're talking about the death of a patient, which is the worst thing, of course, that can happen, but also complications that require invasive intervention, like stay in the intensive care unit, return to the operating room, or insertion of tubes, for example. And so any reduction in that event is a huge deal for patients, but it's also a huge deal for hospitals. We believe that this is, again, not the right thing to do, but really the smart thing to do. And what we are hoping is that with this data, we can speak more easily to leaders and policymakers in saying that if you intentionally increase the proportion of females among operating room teams, that you can actually improve the outcomes of patients. This has a benefit for patients. It also has a benefit for health systems. That's Professor Julie Halle, the lead author of the study. Thanks to her. I'm joined in studio now by Ms. Tamsin Cumming,

who's a consultant colorectal surgeon and chair of the Royal College of Surgeons of England's Women in Surgery Forum. Welcome. Thank you. How interesting. So having 35% women on a surgical team leading to this 3% reduction in major complications, including death. How do you understand it? Well, what I'm, I mean, I was really pleased to see this paper come out.

And what I was interested in is that they'd taken this team approach. So we've had previous papers in the past that they've built on where it actually has shown improved mortality benefit if you're operated on by a female surgeon versus a male surgeon. But there was some sort of controversy around that. What they've taken is a more team-based approach and said, you know, it's in the year that the operation happens, there needs to be at least a third of the anaesthetists and the surgeons are women on the team in that hospital. And so it's interesting that it's not necessarily just the person who operates on you. It's the whole ethos of that team. And as she was saying in that clip there, it may be that opinions and views of people who are in a minority won't be heard or you won't be able to feel strong enough to express those until there's a critical mass of you. And that's what we've been working towards,

you know, in the Women in Surgery Forum to try and increase the number of women surgeons to that critical mass. So you are a surgeon. I mean, is it different in the operating theatre if there is more women there? So, I mean, it's interesting that it's... I mean, my experience in training is I trained mainly under male surgeons, but I once trained under a female surgeon and I immediately noticed the difference.

How? And for me, as a much more junior surgeon in those days, I'd always been sort of staying up night before looking at what the latest rugby results were so that I could have something to talk about on, yes, in the operating. The moment I was in an operating theatre with a woman, I didn't have to revise. I could just walk in and be myself. And, you know, when you think about that on sort of scaled up, if everyone is at ease and is not feeling threatened while they're there doing their job, they're likely to be doing their job better. Because it's as hard a job as it gets. It is a matter of life and death at times as well.

And I can't imagine having an added pressure of having to be somewhat inauthentic. Yeah, I think that's what it is. And what is interesting about this study is that it brings in the anaesthetists as well. And we know that more anaesthetists are female than surgeons. So currently, 16% of consultant surgeons in the UK are women and 40% of consultant anaesthetists are women. But having, you know, that ability to communicate within the team, we don't really know why there is this. I mean, it's all of supposition at the moment. And indeed, that's what Professor Hallett was also saying. But when you look at other industries, you can see that these more diverse voices can be heard. And that is generally good for outcomes.

Just about 15% of senior surgeons in the UK are women. It's a low number. I was thinking about this that anybody who has made it as far as you have and the other that make up that 15%, you probably ought to be incredibly good to get that far. Maybe better than the average male surgeon, some of the hoops that you would have had to jump through. And I wonder, could that play into it? Well, again, we are making sort of leaps of supposition from the data here. But there was an interesting talk we had on International Women's Day by Ria Liang from Australia who said, you know, what we're aiming to do is to get it so that it's normal for a surgeon to be a woman and that it's normal for women, for medical students to think, oh, I want to do surgery. There's no reason why I shouldn't.'s really fascinating you know interesting career and you know and at the moment people it is possible when you certainly look at you know some of the

senior women that I've worked with that they've just had to be that bit more determined that bit more that's what I'm talking about you know to get there what we you may find that when we've got equal numbers which is going to happen in certain specialties in surgery faster than others we might find these differences disappear which could be progress even if it means women not pushing as hard if that makes sense um i was also thinking, reading about the figures, are women, a.k.a. surgeons, less risk averse? Could that, if there's another supposition, I don't know. I did read that sometimes female surgeons might work slower in a more methodical way, but I've never been awake in an operating theatre. So you tell me whether there's any truth to that. So again, you know, I only know from, you know, my own experience.

And I think, you know, most surgeons are highly trained and brilliant at what they do. So it's really hard to generalise. But I thought of the analogy with driving, that a lot of, you know, women are, you know, there's jokes about women drivers, but actually when it comes to it, ins you know, women are, you know, there's jokes about women drivers, but actually when it comes to it, insurers know that women are safer drivers. And indeed, there was that advert in France to men saying men drive more like a woman.

Drive like a woman. So is there an analogy with surgery? I don't know, but it might be that, you know, being less risk taking. We don't know because there still isn't good enough data to show and the differences that have been recorded are very small. Do you think the NHS, the Trust, might take a look at this or pay attention to it? Is this anything that might, I suppose, change any policy? Well, you hope that we're building to that because although the percentages are small, you know, it equates to about 20,000 people who had fewer complications. And it's not,

although those sort of women are the headline, we're looking at overall increasing the diversity. Yes. And in a way, there's been a push to that anyway. But now we've got extra, you know, actually might make a financial difference to the hospital to have a more diverse team. And that really will get people sitting up and paying attention. Ms. Tamsin Cumming, thank you so much for coming into us, Chair of the Royal College of Surgeons of England's Women in Surgery Forum. I want to read just a couple of messages, so many coming in today. Thank you for contributing. On postpartum psychosis, I had it 18 years ago. It's good to hear someone with lived experience of it talking on Woman's Hour. I still feel shame and fear connected

to what I went through. I recently found out that my late mum didn't tell her close friends about my diagnosis. Mental illness is still associated with failing in some way. If this happens when you've just had a baby, it's still treated as utterly shameful by some. That's Meg in Brighton and there are links on our

website to Actionline if you have been affected indeed by a diagnosis or that issue. Back, one more love. Married him 25 years later with his working. Not sure we would have survived if we stayed together from secondary school. Anita's with you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Kavita Puri, and in Three Million from BBC Radio 4, I hear extraordinary eyewitness accounts that tell the story for the first time of the Bengal famine which happened in British India in the middle of the Second World War. At least three million people died. It's one of the largest losses of civilian life on the Allied side. And there isn't a museum, a memorial or even a plaque to those who died.

How can the memory of 3 million people just disappear? 80 years on, I track down first-hand accounts and make new discoveries and hear remarkable stories and explore why remembrance is so complicated in Britain, India and Bangladesh. Listen to 3 Million on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story,

settle in. Available now.