Woman's Hour - Laura Wright, Extended Maternity Leave, Baroness Doreen Lawrence

Episode Date: May 23, 2020

The soprano Laura Wright tells us about her new single released with The Choir of Royal Holloway, University of London to mark Mental Health Awareness week.Baroness Doreen Lawrence discusses why the Labour Party are conducting its own enquiry into why people from black, Asian and minority ethnic communities are more than four times more likely to die as a result of Covid-19 than their white counterparts.Two twenty-somethingsJackie Adedeji and Erin Bradshaw tell us how life has changed for them since the pandemic began.The author Glennon Doyle tells us about her book untamed which explains why we should all listen to and trust the voice deep inside us.Should maternity leave be extended because of the lockdown? The parents of a 6 month old have had more than 200 thousand signatures to a petition asking the government to extend it by three months. We hear from James one of the parents who started the petition and from Cheryl Adams the Executive director of the Institute of Health Visiting on the difficulties faced by new parents at this time.Professor Marion Turner an expert on medieval England tells us why The Plague led to increased wages, greater employment, more migration to towns and, ultimately, to greater independence for women.What makes someone want to go to see the same musical at the theatre time and time again? We hear from documentary maker Mark Dooley about his film, Repeat Attenders – which follows some of musical theatre’s superfans – including Gudrun Mangel a huge fan of Starlight Express.Presenter: Jenni Murray Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed Editor: Lucinda Montefiore

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Good afternoon. In today's programme we look back to the great plague of the 14th century, the Black Death, in which some 70 million died. Why, when it ended, did women achieve greater independence than they'd had before? The impact of the current pandemic, how are young people in their 20s affected by lockdown? I went straight into child mode. When I came home, I'd be like, mum, I'm hungry. And she's like, you're a grown woman, go and get your food. There's moments where I'm like really happy to be home. And then other times when I

forget how annoying my mum and dad can be. My dad just opening my door, my dad paying with the door open. And I'm like, this is why I don't live here anymore. A plea for maternity leave to be extended by three months. What benefits would it bring to new parents? In her book, Untamed, the author Glennon Doyle explains how men and women are conditioned into different types of behaviour. Little boys are trained in every moment of uncertainty to look inside themselves for their own desire. Little girls are trained inside of moments of uncertainty to look outside themselves for permission, for approval, and for consensus. And that is why we live hungry.

That if a 10-year-old who has to look out ourselves to find out how she feels becomes an adult woman who has no idea what she wants or what she feels. So how do you untame yourself? With music from the soprano Laura Wright, whose new single Can You Hear Me was made on Zoom with the choir of Royal Holloway University of London. And what is it that makes fans of musicals go to the same show over and over again? And here, a confession, I've now seen Mamma Mia ten times and rising. Now, it's become clear over recent weeks that some people are at much greater risk from COVID-19 than others. A study by the Office for National Statistics has found that people from black, Asian and minority ethnic communities are more than four times more likely to die as a result of the virus than their white counterparts. Well, the government has launched an inquiry by Public Health England into the impact of the virus on BAME communities.

The Labour Party has called for swift action from the government urgently to issue new guidance as more and more people return to work. And Labour has launched its own review on the impact of coronavirus on BAME people. It will be led by Labour's new Race Relations Advisor, Baroness Dorian Lawrence. But why has Labour decided to conduct its own inquiry when the government has already launched a review? Because we believe that the review that the government is putting out is narrow in scope, with no focus on the underlying inequalities experienced by BAME communities. In today's Times, and I'm sure

you've seen it, there's a report which says research carried out in Edinburgh and Liverpool suggests being black does not put you at greater risk. What did you make of that? I find the article very confusing because like one minute you sort of get a report and saying the extent of the virus on the black community and then these researches are saying it's not really, it doesn't really affect the black community as we've been hearing over the last how many weeks. So I find it very confusing and part of what they were saying is that it's still early stages so things may change you know when they begin to look at the the towards the end of the virus that things may change but it doesn't help um the people who are dying at

the moment by having articles like this coming out at this moment what sort of things are you hearing on the ground on the ground i think people are very concerned especially with this new thing about going back to work you know um is is known whether or not your employers have set up a risk a risk assessment um for people going back to work and and the fact that bme community is so um more would be more affected by the virus so people do have concerns about that what what are your main concerns? My main concern is that there is not enough is looking into the effects on the BME and the fact about the PPE and how much about the frontline staff and part of what I'd like to see is the government to really assess the risk

of BME community within the frontline and whether or not if they should look to deploy them in other areas in order to reduce the risk. Have you got any thoughts of your own about why it might be the case that black, Asian and minority ethnic groups are at greater risk? Would you say there's something biological going on or is it status, the way people live? What CIS has highlighted even more is a certain economics and inequality for the BAME community. I think this just goes to show what's been happening for generations is that not enough is being paid. And look into circumstances around employment, living conditions. So this is just really highlighting the inequality that happens within the BME community.

And I think we just need not to go back to what it was before. Now that the virus has shown exactly the inequality and how the BAME people are dying, is that the government needs to make sure as we move forward, is that they do take account of the disparity of how the black community and what they're going through within their living standard working, you know, so all of those things need to be looked at. Now, you and your leader, Sakir Starmer, have sent a letter to the government calling for, you said, swift action to protect BAME people from COVID-19. What are you actually demanding from them? It's coming down to the risk assessment where we are saying that employers need to make sure that they have risk assessed people going back to work. Because that sort of thing that needs to be, because people do want to go back to work

because of how economically disadvantaged that they are at the moment. But unless employers make sure that they do the risk assessment before they go back. I think the government has encouraged people to go back to work, but they have not insisted on the employers putting in place the risk assessments that they need to do. How will your review be carried out? We're sort of looking at how do we speak to the experience of people on the ground.

So you can always have it to analyse that, but unless you understand how the virus is affecting people on the ground. And so part of what we want to do is be able to speak to individuals and to get their lived experience, because I think it's only from that that we can learn. And how part of what we want to do is be able to speak to individuals and to get their lived experience because I think it's only from that that we can learn and how do we move forward. Now the virus clearly is taking up your time at the moment but beyond that what do you hope to achieve as the Labour Party's Race Relations Advisor? I think for me, it was really important for me to speak to Keir as a new leader. So I think for years, our voices are not loud enough. People in politics and in

government do not really listen to the voices of the BME community. So I want to be able to help and support that as we move forward. And so to listen to what it is that's affecting them most, what can we do to help and support them. To me, that is so important. I think for years, our voices are not being heard. What was your response? I'm also tempted to call you Doreen because we've spoken to each other so many times,

but I will insist on calling you Lady Lawrence. What was your response when you were asked to take this on? I'm looking forward to the work. As I've said, it's something that has always been in the back of my mind. And I think during many elections, I just think our voices and when policies have been put together, I don't think our voice has been heard within all that. And unless we, as a community, unless our voices are being put into policies, then we just continue being on the same treadmill.

And, you know, disadvantage, inequality, whether within schools, in our jobs, in our personal lives, all of those things are affecting us. And I just want to be able to speak up for those who are voices are not being heard I have to ask you what would Stephen your son have made of his mother's position now um I believe that Stephen would be very proud and he'll be giving me a thumbs up and I think he would know that I'm not somebody like to be out in the public constantly talking about anything I prefer to be in the background so I think at this stage I think he would be giving me a thumbs up and saying well done mum

because you are no longer in the background I know that's quite difficult for me I do very few interviews I just think the work to do is more important than being on TV or doing interviews and stuff. And that's why I tend to be in the background as much as I can. So that the importance of listening to people and to be a voice for them in ways that I can do. And it doesn't mean I have to be in the forefront I can be beyond the seat and continue to work. I was talking to Baroness Doreen Lawrence and Sang-Jae said in an email good to hear Doreen Lawrence talking senses always I would like to implore her by coming out of the background from time to time to do interviews etc it inspires us all and gets the unheard voices heard good for you Doreen and thanks

now even though most young people are at low risk of even catching let alone falling seriously ill because of Covid-19 it is still having an impact on their lives grim statistics from the institute of student employers show 32% fewer people are being accepted into apprenticeship programmes. Graduate jobs have been cut by 12% and internships and placements are down by 40%. Jane spoke to Erin Bradshaw, who's taking her final exams and is in her fourth year at university, and to Jackie Adedeji, a 26-year-old journalist, columnist and podcaster who's been furloughed since April the 2nd. She's moved back to her parents. How has that been going? It's been really interesting. At first,

I went straight into child mode. I'd come home and I'd be like, Mum, I'm hungry. And she's like, you're a grown woman, go and get your food. And I'm like, oh, actually, it's had its ups and downs. There's moments where I'm like really happy to be home. And then other times when I forget how annoying my mum and dad can be. My dad just opening my door, my dad peeing with the door open. And I'm like, this is why I don't live here anymore. But it's been nice to spend time with my family.

And my sister actually got married on Zoom as well. Yeah, it's been really nice to actually spend time with them right i mean it wasn't that long ago when a sentence like my sister got married on zoom would have felt utterly ridiculous but now i kind of almost just went with it without really asking another question but i am bound to say um a few things about it when when was it did it go well it was two weeks ago and yeah it went really really well it was like last minute my mum was late and I was like, how are you late to a wedding when you're at home? But my mum was late. But it was nice. We were all sort of on Zoom and we were all just watching her get married because we were supposed to go to Nigeria to see her get married. And obviously my dad was gutted. He couldn't hand her away. But it was nice to just all be together and have a little bit of a laugh and obviously meet her husband virtually. Now, you have been lighthearted about this, but actually there is a practical tough side to being back with your parents again, isn't there? There's bound to be. Oh, definitely. Especially because now I've actually been doing therapy since lockdown started and I've been doing it in the car because

I can't have it in the house because my dad would just listen, listening on every conversation. So there's been moments where it's like, ah, I miss my privacy because I'm having to do stuff in the car or I'm having to take calls outside. And then my dad's like, it's my house. I'm like, yeah, it's technically your house. That's true. Yeah, I guess I just take each day as it comes, really. Although it's, you know, there's tough moments. It's just one of those things where you've just got to take the good with the bad. And at least I have a home to go to. That's how I kind of see it. And I know that so many people will be thinking exactly that. And at least your parents were happy to have you there and there's space

for you. So it's all really stuff to be grateful for. Yeah, exactly. I think there's been moments where my dad's like, oh, I want to get a contract for you guys. So I want to work out when you guys are leaving. Because I think there's moments where he loves it. And then he's like, when are you leaving when there's no food? But I'm actually enjoying it.

Well, today. We'll see about tomorrow. Yeah, well, can only it is really for all of us one day at a time at the moment. Erin slightly different picture for you you've still you're actually with your boyfriend but you're you're away from home and I guess at the moment that's not easy either. No not at all and I would really like to go back at some point, but the worry at the moment is taking sort of anything back to my family now. Norwich has been relatively unaffected by coronavirus, so coming from London to there is a bit of a worry. Now, employment must be on your mind. It is your final year at uni. You've got a, I'm sure you'll get a great degree. You've studied French and German, eminently employable in more ordinary circumstances, but what are you feeling about it all now? To be honest, quite terrified. I mean, I'm fine at the moment, but in a couple of weeks

when my exams finish and I have to find something, I think that's when the worry is going to really kick in because the amount of jobs available at the moment seem to have just diminished hugely. And there aren't the kind of stopgap jobs which you might normally do. So I can't get a job in a bar or a cafe while I look for something else. So there's more pressure on finding that sort of entry level job at a time when they aren't available. What were your plans before all this? I was hoping to find a job, something to do with publishing or translation. And I still am, I'm still looking at those websites and that kind of thing. But the amount of things which are being offered has just really decreased and graduate schemes aren't being offered at the moment and that kind of thing. So I guess what does arise is going to be really

competitive. And in terms of your academic career coming to an end, it won't be the end you'd been hoping for either, will it? Not at all. so we're doing online exams at the moment which is very strange it's not really what we were working towards it feels quite different doing them at home and we also won't have a graduation. And that matters actually doesn't it? Yeah I mean I didn't really realise before that I felt strongly about graduation I thought it was all a bit silly and pompous but when they suddenly say that it's not going to happen, then I realised that, yeah, actually, it was something I really wanted to do. And I haven't had a chance to say goodbye to any of my lecturers or my friends from uni, because one day it was just we were there.

And then the next we were all suddenly working from home. Yeah, no, it is tough. Jackie, what do you think about that? Do you actually think it might be slightly easier to be you to at least have had a chance to establish a working life? I feel like yes, but also because I've been furloughed, I've been able to use this time to do things that I usually wouldn't do. Because I guess when you're so busy with work, you don't really have that much time for yourself. But now I've been furloughed, I've been able to, you know, bake more and read more and write more. And I've been doing poetry. So I've been kind of using this time to get to know myself better, I guess. But obviously I'm not sure when I'll be going back to work, hopefully soon.

Erin, we were talking on this programme on Friday about the over-70s and about some of the challenges they've got. And also, of course, we should say that for young people who haven't had the chance to go to university, their job prospects are going to be, well, damaged as well. There's a lot of people upset at the moment. Who do you feel most sorry for, Erin? I do think that those of us who are graduating this year or in the few years to come, potentially, are going to have a particularly hard time of establishing themselves in the workplace. But I

think what would be really good would be to have some kind of more intergenerational solidarity, because people in their 20s, we are, you know, socially distancing largely for the benefit of older people. Obviously, there are young people who will be badly affected by the virus, but we are doing it to a large extent for those who are older. So I think it'd be good if at some point that kind of solidarity could come from the older generational as well. So that could be in the form of like rent holidays. I guess there are mortgage holidays at the moment. So if that could come down to renters, that would be great. And then supporting economic policies which benefit young people in the future coming out of this crisis as well. Erin Bradshaw and Jackie Adedeji were talking to Jane.

Susan said in an email, I was really annoyed by the comments of two of your participants today who said they were making sacrifices for the older generation and it would be nice to see a reciprocal gesture. We are observing these restrictions for the whole of society, especially those more vulnerable who include all ages. Older people are losing their pleasures of life in their final years and in my mother's case probably her sight also. I'm a very fit 50 plus year old, no underlying health problems and a landlord.

I have no problems giving the younger generation any help they need but let's have less of the we did it for you attitude. It reveals a very self-absorbed persona. Now, how often do you think you would like to do something, feel it's absolutely the right thing for you to do, but then you ignore the little voice that's telling you it's time to break free? Instead, you simply continue to behave in the way you've been conditioned to behave. Well, that's the question at the heart of the latest book from the best-selling author Glennon Doyle. In Untamed, she asks us to think about what we could discover about ourselves if we stopped striving to meet the expectations of the world and instead dared to listen to and trust in the voice deep inside us.

I spoke to her from her home in Florida and we discussed what the book's title, Untamed, really means. You know, we're born with these wild individual selves and then right around 10 to 12 years old is when experts say we start to just internalize our social conditioning, which means that we just start to kind of give up who we are so that we can fit in to families, to friendships, to religions, to communities, to nations. And so, you know, we learn pretty early that we can have who we are, or we can have belonging, but we often have to give up one or the other. So the idea of the

title is that that process of social programming is kind of like a taming. You know, we lose our wild selves, and then we have to reverse the process so we can reclaim some of who we are, were before the world told us who to be. How did you go about untaming yourself? You know, I think I've always had this bubbling inside of me, kind of this discontent or longing, kind of this nagging thing inside of me that knew I was a little bit caged. And I would feel that in terms of religion. I'd hear what the church was teaching me and feel, that doesn't feel exactly right. But I felt it most dramatically when I met, I saw her, it's so cheesy, but across a room. And this voice inside me just said, there she is. And I recognized it as kind of the voice of my wild,

because it was the first time I ever wanted something beyond what I had been conditioned to want. What had you been conditioned to want, and had consequently done? Well, I think that I, you know, had this idea planted in me of what a perfect family looks like. I am a woman and so the models put in front of me very young and forever were that I would marry a man and that I would have a few children and that I would have this perfect little family. And I think that's what happens often is we have this idea planted in us of what the perfect woman, perfect life, perfect family, perfect marriage looks like. So we spend our whole life chasing that idea instead of kind of looking inside of ourselves and creating

a life that matches who we are on the inside. When it came to making that decision about not having the conventional family anymore and marrying a woman that you'd fallen in love with. How did you deal with that inner voice of your mother telling you this was not the right way to behave? Well, interestingly enough, out of all of the people I had to tell, out of, you know, the public way I had to go through this, telling my actual mother was the hardest part. It's so interesting to me because it feels like breaking the idea that we need to live for our parents' approval or that our parents know best instead of us feels like the ultimate untaming to me. So the day, my mother and I are extremely close and she loves me so well. And she also often worries and calls that

love. So she was very fearful about how the world would react. And she brought a lot of her fear to me. And so one day I actually had to tell her that she could not come visit us. I had to say to her, you're still afraid and my children are not afraid. So you can't bring that fear to them because they will see it in your eyes and help you carry it. So that I think was the moment when I had to tell my mom that she was not allowed to come to our family until she could come with nothing but celebration was the moment that a mother and a daughter became two women. And I think it was the moment that I actually grew up. How differently would you say men and women respond to this idea of taming or training? For example, in the book, you mention teenagers being offered food.

Yes, yes. I had such a realization. So my son was having friends over and I peeked my head into the room and I said, is anybody hungry? And Jenny, all of the boys all at once without taking their eyes off the TV said, yes, but all of the girls responded completely differently. And I'll never forget. It was like it was in slow motion. Each girl at the same time took her eyes off the TV and then started looking at each other's faces. They were looking at their friends' faces to find out if they, in fact, were hungry on the inside of them.

And what I realized is, oh, little boys are trained in every moment of uncertainty to look inside themselves for their own desire. Little girls are trained inside of moments of uncertainty to look outside themselves for permission, for approval, and for consensus. And that is why we live hungry. That 10-year-old who has to look out ourselves to find out how she feels becomes an adult woman who has no idea what she wants or what she feels. You recommend in order to untame ourselves doing work on ourselves how easy is it to do that work when you know so many of us are busy there's a house to look after there's a job to do there's kids to take care of where do you find the time to look inside yourself and say hmm all my training

was wrong yeah I mean listen I actually don't see it as work because the last thing that I want is more jobs to do. And the last thing I ever want for women is to add anything to their list. Right. I don't think there's any self-improvement that needs to happen. I think all of that betterment, all of that self-improvement is just more outer busyness to keep us distracted from returning to ourselves. What I really think is that we have this voice inside of us that has always known who we are and that will always know and that will always tell us what the next right thing is for us. And I really think that it has less to do with work and more to do with stopping all that work,

just stopping chasing other people's expectations and ideals, turning off all the voices outside of ourselves and just practicing going inward instead of outward and feeling around for that, for what we really want instead of what someone else told us to want, for what we really feel instead of what we think we should feel. Because there's this thing that happens where we're trained to not cause outer conflict so we don't rock the boat. But there's a price to that, which is that we slowly die inside. I was talking to Glennon Doyle about her book Untamed.

Still to come in today's program, what persuades fans of musicals to see the same one over and over again? Looking back to the Black Death and other worldwide pandemic, what were the positive benefits to women's independence that came as it ended? And Can You Hear Me? A song from the soprano Laura Wright and the choir of Royal Holloway University of London. The parents of a six-month-old baby have launched a petition appealing to the government to extend maternity leave by three months because of the difficulties they've experienced during the lockdown. 200,000 people have signed it but it's not yet known whether there'll be a debate in the House of Commons

which is normally triggered by only 100,000 signatures. Well, Cheryl Adams is the Executive Director of the Institute of Health Visitors, and James is one of the organisers of the petition. Mothers of young children, those on maternity leave, have seemed to have been massively overlooked by the government. Nothing's ever been mentioned of them in any of the briefing, any of the papers, anything that's been released. So, you know, we campaigned to put that extension out there for an additional three months pay. That's all we're asking for, really. You know, maternity leave is 52 weeks.

You're paid for 39. You take 13 weeks unpaid. We're asking for those last 13 weeks to be paid at the statutory maternity pay rate and just to give the option then to take a further 13 weeks unpaid after that 12 months if you want to. A lot of mothers are facing going back to work in the next, you know, six, eight, ten weeks to a job that they can't be furloughed in, that there's no chance of that happening, or anyone then to, you know, look after their children

because they can't send them to grandparents, which a lot of people would rely on, or send them to any childcare facilities that might be open. So there's a childcare issue, there's a mental health issue, you know, people have got postnatal depression and any other... Yeah. Tell us a little bit about your own circumstances. You and your partner, Jesse, have a six-month-old son. Yes. I know we were hoping to talk to Jesse on the programme today, but the baby's had a bit of an unsettled night.

How has her maternity leave been, would she say? It's been a bit rough at the start, to be honest with you. You know, our baby had surgery when he was just six weeks old. So I then had to take time off work, obviously unpaid, to do that, to be around for that because it was just too much for one person to handle. And then it's a case of you've got this tiny little baby

who's just had surgery. You've got no confidence to take the baby out in the car on your own or just even go out for a walk because you've not got the confidence because he's so fragile so small and he's just had surgery we just build the confidence up to then take take the baby out on our own in the car or out for a walk just one of us just to see how that was and obviously now now we can't really do that um other than go out for a walk uh because it's just not it's just not it's just not safe

for the baby out there so an extension of three months would allow you know that confidence i would have to start again because obviously mothers don't want to take their children into any shops anywhere where you know they could pick up anything at all and also you're missing out on the opportunities for example to look at nurseries. I'm imagining you can't go, can you? We can't go and find them. And we're not just going to settle for any nursery that we know, well, there's a nursery there. We can take them there.

We're not going to settle for that. We want to be able to go and visit nurseries, have a feel for the place. And it's also some nurseries will offer like tester days just before a couple of weeks before they're due to start to go to nursery they'll go into nursery for a test today see how the baby is you know we'll come away for an hour or so and it's all of that kind of transition period that we're not going to be able to have if mothers have to go back to work straight away because we've not got this extension. I'm going to talk to Cheryl Adams now from the Institute of Health Visiting. Cheryl, you're not a union, you're about raising standards in your profession,

but I gather you do broadly support what James and Jessie are trying to do. I think it's been beautifully described by James, just what the challenges for new parents have been under lockdown and COVID. I think there's been so much, obviously, attention on hospitals and needing to treat people. And the needs of families have perhaps been forgotten. It's been a big concern of the Institute. So I think this petition, if nothing else, is really shining a light on the needs of young families.

It's a very difficult thing, isn't it? The government has obviously had to already pay out a lot of money. Whether they can afford to also do this, I don't know. That's for them to decide. I think different families have different needs, and certainly for some families, to be trying to find childcare at a time and needing to go back. Just as lockdown finishes, needing to go choose a nursery

you want to look at several nurseries are they open yet um obviously there's the thought about infection and spread of infection a lot lots and lots of anxiety and if it's your first baby particularly yes you know as james has described really really a worrying time to to be leaving your baby for the first time yeah absolutely Can you give us some insight into how health visitors are working at the moment? If I could think of one practical example, it would be helping somebody through breastfeeding in its early stages. Not always easy to do, not always easy to keep doing. How can you help somebody? Do you do it on Zoom?

They do do it on Zoom, WhatsApp, FaceTime, and all these different video devices, apparently quite successful using a doll. I've had some very triumphant health visitors say, great, I've got established and it's going well. But health visitors are still doing some home visits. And if they're very concerned, they will risk assess. They may visit in the garden because obviously if there is a garden, that's safer and easier. Otherwise, they may visit in the home. They may wear PPE. They may not. It just depends on the circumstances. A lot of, in fact, most organisations have set up helplines.

The other thing to say about breastfeeding is that there are very well established peer support services in this country and they've been continuing to run they've gone online too. Right James was a little concerned about postnatal depression and it's easy to see why because it never matters more actually in your life than at this time to be able to get out and meet other people in a similar situation. Absolutely and unfortunately health visitors are reporting increased levels of postnatal depression and anxiety. And I don't think it's a surprise, particularly first time mums are there at home with a baby. They're going to be feeling very lonely because they can't see their family. They can't get out. As James described, even going for walks might be an anxiety.

It's actually probably very safe, but I can understand why they might feel concerned about it. And that anxiety builds up. And obviously, yes um you know depression can can follow i think the other thing is that you know little things become very big things when you're at home with a new baby the day can seem very long and my advice is that gps are open health visiting services are open midwives are there so if anybody listening is feeling anxious, please, please pick up the phone and actually call one of the services. The health visitors will get back to you. And just very briefly, James, any idea whether this is going to be debated in the comments? Any news on that?

Well, there is an early day motion being tabled on the 13th of May by Gavin Robinson, the Democratic Unionist Party from East Belfast. He's tabled it, and so far there's 12 signatures to it. So basically his daily day motion says, you know, these debates are not going to happen at present because of the lockdown. But he's asked, he said that the House recognised the importance of this, the social interaction and building bonds with extended family circles and wider society, and that he has asked the government to consider the proposal positively. James and Cheryl Adams.

The soprano Laura Wright came to prominence when she was only 15 and won the BBC Radio 2 Young Chorister of the Year in 2005. She sang the national anthem for the Queen's 90th birthday and has sung at some of the great sporting events, including the FA Cup final, the Invictus Games, and she was England rugby's first official anthem singer. To mark Mental Health Awareness Week, she's released a single with the choir of Royal Holloway University of London. It's called Can You Hear Me?

Are you so far, so far away I will hold you One day Laura, what was the message you were hoping to put out with Can You Hear Me? I really wanted people to have the courage to speak out about how they're feeling at the moment through this very, very difficult and unusual time that we're living in. So when I was asked to be involved in recording this song, which is written by the wonderful composer Thomas, it just was such an honour to be involved and I had to sing it. What initially prompted you to be keen on being more involved with charities during lockdown,

trying to help people who may well be lonely and be alone? So my father suffered a stroke about three and a half years ago and I knew that during this time his mental well-being could well take a dive because I knew that he really held on to those specific sessions whether it was speech therapy or a visiting physio or a trip to the gym each week and those kind of short moments of freedom and also of structure within his week were really important. So I knew that that could potentially have a negative effect on him being in isolation and being a shielded person. So what sort of work have you managed to do directly with people in lockdown? I mean, obviously, the single is a big thing. We'll talk in a moment about how you put that together.

But direct person on person stuff. Yeah. So I've been doing some one-to-one sessions with lots of people from different organisations, whether that's the Stroke Association, whether that's the Soldier Arts Academy, I've been working with some veterans who have PTSD. I've also been in touch with NHS staff around the country and even singing to paramedics on their lunch break. And for me, it's been this chance for them to reset their buttons, to take a moment, whether that's five minutes or half an hour, just to enjoy music, enjoy having a conversation with someone outside of their household. And to have that openness openness I think is really important. What have you got out of it because you're far more used to singing in a huge stadium or a concert hall? Yeah and I think

actually I'll be quite nervous when I go back to that whenever that may be but for myself personally it has been quite cathartic being able to speak to these people and I think having the visual side of things too and we're spending a lot of time online and we're spending that time potentially doing meetings and I think it's hard to see people's body language but I've really tried to connect with those people to understand how they might be feeling and just to listen to listen to one another and to be kind I've got a five and a half month old daughter. So if you hear any gurgling in the background, that's her. But my time otherwise has been spent with her in isolation.

Don't worry, we've had a lot of those in recent weeks. Children taking part in national radio and we love it. You have had your own experience of problems with mental health in the past. What have you experienced? Yeah, so as you know, Jenny, I feel sort of uncomfortable talking about this, and it happened many years ago, but I did suffer with my own problems with mental health, which led me to self-harm. And I think for me at that time, it was a culmination of reasons, self-doubt, body image came into it. Also, I think when you're younger as a teenager, school can become your life and your world and your friendship circles in your world as well. And for me, that all became too much.

And so I resorted to self-harm and it actually became something. Well, it did. it became an addiction. And I think throughout my teens and early 20s, it was the thing that I relied on in a very negative way. And I suppose had it not been for my mum and my brother actually being aware of the situation, I think I would have been in a very different position now. So I'm very grateful for them. And I suppose that's made me look back with hindsight and realise how lucky I was to have their ears to listen. Now we're going to hear the whole of Can You Hear Me shortly.

It is so impressive that people are managing to do these things, the whole choir and you on Zoom. How did you put it together? I was approached to take part in this project. And like everyone involved, we've basically recorded the audio and the visual all from our living rooms. So it's been great fun. It's been very different, as you say, and quite a unique experience experience but with the help of technology it's all been put together and it's been I think we're so pleased with the outcome and we're so pleased that people are hearing this song and and seeing seeing the message that's within the lyrics So far, so far away, I will hold you one day. When you hear me I can believe you. We are all in, all in your love.

Our hearts we shout, we shout today. We shall be there and on the Instagram and Twitter feeds. Frankie Bridge, a former member of the girl band The Saturdays, speaks to us about her experience of depression, anxiety and panic attacks. She tells us why she doesn't need to be fixed and shares some advice on how to talk to other people about your mental health. In the 14th century, another pandemic known as the Black Death had a disastrous effect on people across the world. It's estimated that some 70 million people died, but for those who survived, there were unexpected positive consequences. Professor Marian Turner teaches at Jesus College in Oxford and is the author of Chaucer, A European Life,

which is on the shortlist for the Wolfson History Prize this year. She told me about those positive consequences. About a third to a half of the population died. So this is a pandemic on the kind of scale that it's really hard for us to imagine. And I'm sure for those who survived, the psychological consequences must have been absolutely appalling but the financial and economic consequences were actually good for those who survived because there was still the same amount of land to farm for instance but many fewer people to do it so what happens very generally is that wages go up because labour is very much in demand there There is a labour shortage.

And that means that if your local landlord isn't paying enough, you go somewhere else and they're willing to pay you more. So people started moving more, literally, but also metaphorically, there was more social mobility. People had more opportunities. And one thing that they did was lots of people started to migrate to towns and cities. People started to take their chances there more to go and see what other kinds of things they might be able to do in life. How was women's independence improved? So this migration to towns affected women in particular. There's records of a high number of women migrating to towns. And so what we see is many more women entering into the labour market. So women had more economic independence.

So rather than moving from their parental home to a husband's home, you've got more women having a period of time in their life in which they are earning money. And of course, as we all know, economic independence and sexual independence are very much linked, because now a lot more girls are, were able to earn money and then think to themselves, well, if I am going to marry, I've got more choice, I don't have to do what my parents say, because I've got other other options, I can still earn money. And then when they did marry, it was easier for them to set up their own homes. They were also then marrying later. And this is also a really crucial point, because, of course, if you marry later,

you have fewer children. That has health consequences. But it also meant that those women were then often able to invest more in those children. Now, the wife of Bath is, think the best known of Chaucer's characters. How does she exemplify the opportunities women had? So Chaucer writes the Canterbury Tales at the end of the 14th century. So Chaucer was a man who was about six when the plague hit and grew up right through this post-plague economy in this world of social change. And he was someone who came from a mercantile background who lived in the city.

His whole Canterbury group, I think we can see as emerging from this post-plague world, because he focuses a lot on cities, on merchants, on all kinds of economic activity. And the wife of Bath, who I absolutely agree, she is the best known character. She was also Chaucer's favourite character. So he talks about the wife of Bath in lots and lots of different texts. And although she has lots of literary antecedents, she's also very much a product of the late 14th century environment. The wife of Bath is a woman who married many times, who took advantage of England's good inheritance laws, which meant that women could inherit very large proportions of men's

wealth. She was then economically independent, was able to choose her later husbands much more freely because she had economic independence herself. She was also a working woman. So we're told that she was a clothmaker. She was involved in the cloth trade. And we see in The Wife of Bath, a woman who has an independence. And she talks about the fact that women in the past haven't had the opportunity to tell their own stories. So she emphasises the fact that the canonical texts have all been written by men in the past, and that they are all biased against women and that women need a chance now to tell their own stories. Why was it not the same in other countries, Italy for example? Why was England so much better? So this is a really interesting point because I think that

what we see with a crisis like the plague is that it then is a catalyst, it exacerbates conditions that already exist. And so you don't have automatically the same consequences everywhere that the plague hits. So Italy also, of course, was terribly hit by the plague, and again, had a labour shortage. But it didn't have the same background traditions that England had at this time, where England did have some traditions of women working more outside the home, of female inheritance, of women marrying a bit later. That was already happening. And then it was intensified by the plague. But in Italy, there were in general traditions of early female marriage and not so much a tradition of women

leaving the parental home. So the way that Italy tended to fill the labour gap was through slavery. And what we see in the later 14th century is a big influx of slaves. In 1363, for instance, Florence passed a law which said that they could import an unlimited number of slaves. These slaves were coming from Caffa over on the Black Sea, which was also where the plague itself had actually come from into Europe. So when these slaves were imported into Florence, there are many lists that show that the vast majority of the slaves were young women. So they were women between the ages of 12 and 30. And they were filling the labour gap. And of course, there's all kinds of appalling aspects of this big influx of slaves. And they were filling the labour gap. And of course, there's all kinds of

appalling aspects of this big influx of slaves. And you see lots of foundling hospitals, for instance. What we also see is that we don't then have women who are earning their own money, able to make their own sexual choices. So the knock on effects that we see in England, where these are women who are being paid and are sexually more independent. That's not what we're seeing in places such as Florence at this time, which is instead depending on slave labour, where the girls don't earn money and don't have sexual choices. And briefly, Marianne, I know a number of female authors emerged, Julian of Norwich, Marjorie Kemp, Christine de Pizan in France. How significant were they? Extremely significant. So it's in the late 14th century that we first see named female authors writing in English. And we see them writing in a number of different ways.

Julian of Norwich, who was an anchorite, so an enclosed nun. And then the early 15th century, Marjorie Kemp, who was a married woman who'd had many children, traveled all around the world. And Christine de Pizan, I'm glad you mentioned her as well, who was an author writing mainly around the court in Paris, but who had many, many connections with English culture as well. And writing just shortly after Chaucer, she echoes many things that the wife of Barthes was saying. So Christine de Pizan writes about the fact that she was reading lots of books which all say terrible, terrible things about women. And she can't understand it because she says none of the women that I know

are like that at all. And then she is told by these allegorical female figures that she must start writing books about women. She must emphasize how there are good women in the world and that women shouldn't allow any more of their stories only to be told by men. I was talking to Professor Marion Turner. A lot of people have asked me why. As someone who loves all kinds of theatre and likes to watch lots of different things, I have seen Mamma Mia ten times and would go again at the drop of a hat. It seems I'm not alone. The documentary maker Mark Dooley has made a film, Repeat Attenders,

which follows some of musical theatre's superfans. Gudrun Mangel features in the film and has confessed to being the number one fan of Starlight Express. Why does she love it so much? Because I think at Starlight Express I feel understood. I feel understood. You see, I watch this steam train locomotive and nobody believes in him. And he's fighting and he is winning against the muscle power of all these

other narcissists in that play. Yes. And it gives me courage. I feel happy. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm going to come back to you, but we just need, we just need to play something from Starlight Express, don't we? Here we go. For you Stop the rain Turn the tide If only you Use the power within you Need and beg the world Turn around and help you If you're drawn what you have within you

Somewhere deep inside Starlight Express Oh, Gudrun, it's getting to me as well. When did you first see it? How old were you? I saw Starlight Express the first time in the year of 1988. I was 70 years old. This is an affectionate film, isn't it?

You're not mocking these people. No, not at all. I mean, really, there's sort of two sides to it. One part is to celebrate these fans and what they do and the passion that they have for this thing. And then the other side of it is to show people that aren't so much into musicals or perhaps don't understand why these fans see shows multiple times

and to show them the positive side to going to a musical. As long as you're not hurting somebody else or yourself and you love this thing and it makes you happy, what is wrong with this hobby? It's such a positive, happy thing to do. So why shouldn't that be celebrated? Yeah. And yet it is one of those things that some people might mock. And I don't really understand why you'd mock that when you don't mock season ticket holders at obscure football clubs, for example. There's no difference, is there?

For sure. I mean, I guess the biggest difference is probably that some people dress up in costume and they cosplay or, you know, it's music that's not sort of popular music most of the time. So there's a curiosity, I guess, a quirkiness to this hobby that people don't understand. I do understand that level of shame that some people can have about musical theatre. If I'm stopped at the lights and, you know, belting out a power ballad from a show, I get, you know, a bit self-conscious about that. And really what the film is about is to stop people feeling like that. Who cares what you do? Like, you love it. Sports people love their team that they follow. So should you. Yeah. Gudrun, you do dress You love it. Sports people love their team that they follow.

So should you. Yeah. Gudrunan, you do dress up, don't you? Who do you dress up as? Oh, I have many costumes. I have many costumes. It was from Rusty, Papa, Pearl, Dinah, each character. So actually you do them all.

Do you think actually there's a gender aspect to this? Are women more likely to be regular attenders based on what you know? Certainly. I mean, the statistics and the data does say that the majority of theatre goers are female. But then a show might absolutely throw that statistic away, like the Book of Mormon, which skews predominantly male, and We Will Rock You or Rock of Ages. So it does, there is a huge attraction for this hobby to women, but they will a lot of the time bring their partners with them, you know, and sort of introduce other people to musicals

that aren't women. I guess it's just one of those hobbies that has that attraction. Yeah, I'm just going through the emails we've had on this. Valerie recommends Beautiful. That's the Carole King story. She's seen it three times, would have been four, except for lockdown. What do you think of the musicals about the life stories of stars? This is a relatively new phenomenon, isn't it?

I've seen Beautiful Myself and that is a particularly good one. Yeah, they're sort of typically known as jukebox musicals, which have a pre-existing catalogue of music that they draw upon and sort of trying to tap into that audience that loves that artist. Yeah, look, they serve a purpose. Some of them are beautifully done and tastefully done and some of them you can see are perhaps trying to make a bit of cash as quickly as possible.

Yeah. But, yeah, look, a lot of these artists have fantastic stories. So, yeah, worthy of a musical. Julia has emailed to say her favorite ever musical was anything goes um starring john barrowman um wonderful music by cole porter of course um what's this from linda absolutely loves uh west side story really caught my imagination ever since i've loved going to see musicals i've enjoyed many an andrew lloyd weber production um joseph cats evita the lot.

Gudrun, very briefly, if you didn't see Starlight Express, which show would you see instead? Before I met Starlight Express, I was a big fan of the Rocky Horror Picture Show. Oh, that was your favourite too. OK. Yes, that's my favourite too, the Rocky Horror Picture Show. Gudrun Mangel and Mark Dooley were talking to Jane. And in an email, Inga says I'm definitely a repeat attender. I have seen Les Miserables probably nine times, Matilda the Musical seven times, Book of Mormon four times, Guys and Dolls twice, Groundhog Day twice, Wicked twice. I just love musicals. They are stirring, passionate and inspiring.

On Monday, Bank Holiday Monday, Jane will be here and she'll be talking in a maternity special. Join her, three minutes past ten, if you can, Monday morning. For me for today, enjoy what for many of us will be a little bit of a long weekend. Bye-bye. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody

out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.