Woman's Hour - Lauren Sequeira, Rape misconceptions, Singer Julia Bullock

Episode Date: January 26, 2024

False beliefs about what does and doesn’t constitute rape are more deeply ingrained in young people than we might think. The Crown Prosecution Service has conducted research into what these misconceptions are, and the impact they’re having on the justice system when it comes to rape convictions. Anita Rani is joined by Baljit Ubhey from the CPS and Andrea Simon from End Violence Against Women to hear more.Julia Bullock is an American classical singer. Her debut solo album, Walking in the Dark, was nominated for a Grammy award. Next week, she is bringing her mixed-media project History’s Persistent Voice to London’s Queen Elizabeth Hall. It shines a light on the words, work and experiences of Black American and British artists, and includes new songs commissioned from leading Black women composers. She joins Anita to discuss her music, her influences and her passions. Journalist Helen Carroll faced a backlash online when she revealed she pays her son £40 a month to load the dishwasher. This sparked a discussion - were you paid as a child to do household chores? Or do you think children should just be doing things around the house anyway without money? Parenting coach and psychologist Sue Atkins joins Anita to discuss. Domino Day is a brand new series coming to BBC Three which combines the world of modern dating with the world of the supernatural. Series writer Lauren Sequeira speaks to Anita about why the show’s themes of modern relationships and female empowerment are so important to her, and why she wanted to show witches in a whole new light. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. Today's programme comes with a trigger warning. We're going to be talking about getting your children to do chores and whether or not you should pay them to do them. So what goes on in your household? Let me know. And please don't hold back. Not that you do. Do your children do the housework expected of them?

Or do you have to pay them to make sure they have a motivation? Or are you happy to just do everything for your kids and have no expectations of them whatsoever because it's just easier for you to do it all by yourself, less hassle. I ask because a journalist in the Times wrote about paying her son £40 a month to load the dishwasher. She does explain it's also his pocket money. What do you think about that? What was your experience? Should children be paid to do basic household chores? Is it teaching them a work ethic or is it just a privilege that not everyone can afford? And even if you can afford it, shouldn't doing basic things like cleaning be a life skill? I cannot wait to open this can of worms.

You can get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can also message me via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. You can also WhatsApp me or voice note me using the number 03700 100 444. And if you fancy sending me an email because you've got a lot to say on the subject, then you can email me by going to our website. Also, if you're unsure about what to do and need advice, get your questions in because I'm going to be speaking to a parenting coach and a psychologist. In fact, we've had a message in from Janet already on this.

She says, I'm from a family of seven. We all received pocket money. We all had jobs to do, make your own bed, set or clear the table, wash up, etc. The money wasn't related to the jobs. We understood our mother was not a maid and we had to pull our weight for the money though. Interesting, isn't it? I have to say that as an Asian kid growing up in the 80s and 90s paying your children just wasn't part of the Asian parenting manual. Just putting that out there, lots of you may be able to relate to that. Also on the programme today a brand new series called Domino Day is starting on BBC3. It's about witches and modern day dating. The brilliant writer Lauren Sequeira will be here to tell me all about it. And you are in for a treat.

Music from the sublime classical singer Julia Bullock. Your text messages welcome on household chores and whether you should pay your children or indeed anything you hear on the programme. Your thoughts, opinions, always welcome. 84844 is the number to text. But first, false beliefs and misconceptions about what does or doesn't constitute rape are more common than we might think. That's according to research published today by the Crown Prosecution Service, which also found that younger people between the ages of 18 and 24 hold more false beliefs about rape than those over 65. So what do these misconceptions mean for victims of rape?

A huge percentage of which, as we know, are women. How can we make sure those misconceptions are stamped out? Well, joining me to discuss this are Baljit Ubaid, Director of Strategy and Policy at the CPS, and Andrea Simon, Director of End Violence Against Women. Welcome to both of you. Thank you for coming in to talk about this. Baljit, I'm going to come to you first. Let's get into it. Tell us about the research. Why did you commission it? Well, we commissioned this research because it was part of our rape strategy that we launched in 2020, where we said we want to do better in how we prosecute these cases. And part of that

is looking at what is the public understanding of rape? We know that in the past there have been lots of harmful assumptions and misconceptions. And what we did was we revised our legal guidance some time ago to reflect that. But we thought it was important that we understood what people think now, because what that can help us do is think about how we charge cases, our trial strategy. So it's part of our overall response to improve our prosecutions in rape cases. So how was the research carried out and who did you speak to? Well, it's a fairly rigorous piece of research. There was a discourse analysis, there was a literature review, there was a survey of 3,000 people,

and there were focus groups and interviews. And this research was carried out by external experts in the field and academics. And as you say, some of the findings are troubling. Will, we will talk about those in a moment, but just there's such a range of beliefs held about rape. How did you decide which ones to test? What questions to ask? Well, we worked with experts in the field, groups like Andrea's who really know, who talk to rape victims, who have that understanding. They also informed the work we did looking at what the current harmful misconceptions are, especially in a world where there's social media now. Things have changed so much. So we we got insights from experts to inform that work. So what were the findings? So the findings, as you said, there's so many. So we'll pick some highlights. Well, highlights, first of all, as you say, the 18 to 24 category, their understanding was less in terms of the accurate facts.

And so just to give you a couple of highlights, young people were far less likely to understand that if a person says online that they want to meet up and have sex, that doesn't mean that they have to have sex when they meet. Young people were also far less likely to correctly identify that being in a relationship or marriage does not mean you always can assume consent. And less than half recognise that if someone had been drinking or taking drugs, a man is still capable of committing rape. So, as I say, some worrying findings. Yeah, and there's lots of others, but let's stick with the age difference, because I think a misconception of society is that young people are a lot more clued up and know what's right and what's wrong. What do you think about this, Andrea? What's happening? Why are young people

more likely to have these misconceptions? Well, yeah, it's a very interesting question. And the research, I mean, it brings a lot of reflections on, in some ways, that the public's understanding of rape and the reality of it has become more accurate but that there's still huge misconceptions and as you say with younger people and I think one of the things that is obviously fueling young people's understanding of sexual consent is the rapid rise of unchecked online misogyny so many people are living their lives online now young people are exposed to a lot of content that is maybe sympathetic to perpetrators

and is really emphasising this long-standing rape myth around women and girls having made up allegations of rape, which is not the case. That's actually really rare. But it's very clear that that's still something that's holding fast for younger people. Baljit, were you alarmed by that finding that young people are more likely to have these misconceptions than the older generation? I think we were surprised at that finding. It's not what we were expecting.

And I think what Andrea says is absolutely spot on. It was outside the scope of this research to look at why young people had those views. But one of the focus groups did allude to the fact that social media prevalence of pornography may be having an impact on those views. It's worrying, isn't it? Because it just means that there's a lot of work to do.

It's not just about educating a generation that's come and gone it's worse for the younger generation I think that's what makes this research really relevant that the jurors of today and tomorrow we need to do some education on this The other thing that you just mentioned there Andrea is that women are not believed. And I think one thing that's jumped out at me was only a third of respondents, and this is all your

respondents, correctly identified that women rarely make up rape allegations. 36% got that right. Andrea? victims going through the criminal justice system as well, because those views will also be found amongst police, amongst prosecutors, in juries, in courts. So we're still, I think, grappling with rape cases often being built around perceptions of credibility of victims' accounts, and often a stranger rape scenario, which just isn't the reality because the vast majority of rapes one in three actually take place within a domestic abuse context so with the former or current partner and i think we've spoken to to women who when they have been raped and they've reported it but they've previously had consensual sex with a partner when that's come to light

because the police have looked through their phone records, they've seen messages about that consensual experience, that they are less inclined to continue those cases. So we've seen cases dropped, even though there's other evidence of injuries, etc, that have been sustained, and they hold up the victim's account. So Baljit, but that's not an issue with public misconception, that's an issue with the system. And that's why this research is really important. And we're going to share it with our partners, you know, across the system, policing, we've been doing a lot of work with the police to make sure that we are taking much more of a suspect centric approach when we prosecute these cases. And what that means is, rather than focusing on the

victim's credibility, we look at what the perpetrator is doing, you know, and really getting it out there that, you know, few rapists use physical force. Many manipulate and coerce victims. Many plan these, you know, this, and it's not the first time they've done it. So some of the work that we've done jointly with the police through a program called operation soteria has really highlighted that and what we're absolutely committed to is that our prosecutors working really closely with the police are absolutely identifying these harmful assumptions and making sure that when we're looking at charging strategy when we're looking at charging strategy, when we're looking at trial strategy, we are reframing those with accurate messages. And looking at presumably

what's going on within the CPS as well and misconceptions held within your own system. Absolutely. We're not complacent. I mean, we're proud of the work that we have done, you know, since we launched our strategy in 2020. We published our latest data. The number of cases coming through from the police have more than doubled. The number of cases we're charging have more than doubled. The volume of convictions has tripled. But we recognise that the number of cases are a drop in the ocean when you look at reports. And we also know that not everybody reports. So there's no room for complacency.

But I do want to highlight how hard we're working on this to do better. Because like you say, they are a drop in the ocean because it's only 4-5% of reported rape cases end in a charge. And that's when you know that the vast majority of women are not lying. So there is a complete, something is absolutely failing women in the system. That's right. And it's much more than misconceptions and mistruths within society. And that's why, you know, our message is, you know, if you have been raped, please do come forward.

The police want to take this really seriously The police want to take this really seriously. We want to take this really seriously. And we want to build really strong cases. And we want to improve. I mean, you work on the front line. You speak to women all the time. What do you make of the results and the findings and what this may do? So I think what Badger's right, there's been a slight increase in prosecutions,

but it's still a long way from where we need to be. It's still only around 5% of cases. And we've also seen other things going on. So there's an increase in victims actually pulling away and not supporting the cases. And one of the factors may well be timeliness. The length of time it takes for the CPS to make a charging decision has gone up. And then we've got the Crown Court backlog and we see rape cases being stuck in the system for years can be it can be four years now so it's very hard for victims to stay engaged when that's the context um it's important research but we do

need to see what the cps are going to do with it is it really they're sitting next to you just ask them is it really going to change the way prosecutors make charging decisions? Is it going to change the type of advice that you give police? And training is welcome, but we have to see evidence of those wider shifts in the culture. Like you say, towards investigating suspects, not focusing only on victims credibility. And as well as that, we know it isn't just a CJS issue because we have to see other things happening as well. How do we educate young people? What is in our relationships and sex education? Is it relevant to the kinds of attitudes that we're picking up on?

Absolutely, which is why the CPS have done this research to shine a light on these held attitudes within society and of course we know society needs to change on every single level. However, ask your questions directly to CPS about what you can actually do as a body, as a very important body. Absolutely. We recognise that we play a really critical role in this and we take this very seriously. I think what's positive about this research is the second part. The first part was about let's understand what the public think and let's look at that in a variety of different demographics. But the second part. The first part was about, let's understand what the public think and let's look at that

in a variety of different demographics. But the second bit is, how can you reframe this so you can actually shift people's attitudes? And I think that's really, really interesting because what this research has showed is that if you reframe those messages and you link those to values,

that actually shifted the perceptions of some of the survey respondents. So to give you an example, if you reframe something, being raped can destroy a victim's world, taking away their freedom, trust and safety for the rest of their life. That shifted some of the attitudes. So what I'm really excited about is how we reframe these messages. And, you know, it's simple. You know, messages like few rapists use physical force and many manipulate and coerce victims.

If we're thinking about that when we're working with the police, and one of the reasons why there's a bit of delay in the charging is one of the things that one of the step change things that we have done is give early advice to the police. Get in there early. So that means the case may need more work before we make a final decision. about how are we going to positively reframe rape truths, then we can get the case on the right track at the beginning and then making sure that that really follows through so that when we give instructions to advocates, that they're thinking about this when they're opening a case in court, when they're closing it, they're talking about that so that they can say things like,

everybody responds differently to the trauma of rape. Victims may not recognise it's rape straight away. And these are some of the things, these are the accurate messages of what we need to get out there and make sure they're informing our casework decision making. Andrea? Absolutely.

I agree. You need to make sure that these rape myths are not influencing the cases that get charged and they go through the system. Unfortunately, we often see there is evidence where cases are dropped because of things that come to light, which are about victim credibility. One example of that is therapy notes and the intrusive requests for victims' counselling and therapy nodes. And if there is information in there, it's often completely irrelevant to the case at hand, but it can be used as evidence to discredit that victim. And we still see cases being dropped if victims don't want to share,

don't give their consent for that information to be shared, but also for things that are found within that evidence that don't relate to the case. Because it's an incredible, as you know, because you work with women all the time who go through this, that after having an incredibly traumatic experience of the assault,

then having to prove your credibility, the onus is on the victim to then prove their credibility. That doesn't really compute, does it, Baljeet? Absolutely. And we recognise those concerns. We are really, really clear if it's not relevant, we should not be disclosing that. And we've worked really hard and actually worked with specialist organisations to do podcasts for police officers and prosecutors about, we call it third party material, and when

we should be asking for it. If it's not relevant, we should not be using it. We do think that we need stronger protections on this. And there is a Victims and Prisoners Bill going through Parliament at the moment, and an amendment, which would make it a judge decision as to whether those therapy and counselling notes can be disclosed. And we think that would work better for victims because the practice on the ground doesn't always match up with the guidance that the CPS have issued and the training that officers get as well. Well, it's been really interesting to speak to both of you, the researchers out there, and someone has just been in touch to say the main reason that prosecutions are dropped when the victim has had a previous consensual sex with the perpetrator is that they know the

juries are less likely to quit in those circumstances. Prosecutors are very aware of the already high acquittal rates in rape cases and therefore not willing to pursue cases that will make those statistics even worse. Nobody's given the name. They've just messaged him with that. Thank you both for coming in to speak to me. Baljeet Ubbe, Director of Strategy and Policy at the CPS and Andrea Simon from the Director of End Violence Against Women. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. 84844 is the number to text. Lots of you getting in touch about chores in your household

and how you get your children to do them. Beverly says, At the age of 12, my mother became severely disabled and my twin sister and I were expected to take over all household chores. We had to cook, clean, do the laundry as well. And the obvious chores such as bed making and washing up, we were not paid for this and felt unfairly burdened as we still had the expectation to achieve at school.

So we felt we had very little time to be normal teenagers. Consequently, when I had my own children, I went too far the other way and asked very little of them. On balance, I think children should be expected to do some household chores, especially nowadays when both parents are usually working. But I think it should be tied to their pocket money, your thoughts. And everyone has a thought whether you have children or not. On to my next guest. Julia Bullock is an American classical singer who, according to Opera News, communicates intense, authentic feeling

as if she was singing right from her soul. Well, last year, her debut solo album, Walking in the Dark, was nominated for a Grammy. Well, next week, Julia is bringing her mixed media project, History's persistent voice to London's Queen Elizabeth Hall, shining a light on the words, work and experiences of Black American and British artists. She's also commissioned songs from leading Black women composers, including Cassie Kinoshi. And Julia joins me now. Welcome to Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm honoured. We are honoured. Tell me about the project, History's Persistent Voices. Let's talk about why you're coming to our wonderful city. Well, first, I'm the artist-in-residence with the Philharmonia Orchestra this year. And they asked which projects that I've originated I wanted to bring and that they could also help to present. And this has been a project that really started almost six, seven years ago now with research that I was doing with another composer, Jesse Montgomery, American composer. And we went through this anthology that was released

just after the Civil War, where a group of musicologists traveled all around to newly freed communities and transcribed 136 songs that dealt with resistance, rebellion. Some of the songs are about labor and grief, of course, and the trauma of enslavement. But really, it was the assertion of life that was so moving for Jesse and I. And we wanted to contribute to the already existing canon of Black American spirituals um so that's was one element of this uh kind of the inspiration for this project but at the same time uh while i was looking through this anthology

i um was reading a lot of articles and watching various documentaries on the connections between enslavement in the U.S. and it's the lineage of oppression. Sorry, it's weird to put it that way, but it's the links between enslavement, convict leasing, sharecropping, Jim Crow, and then mass incarceration in the United States. And I also was reading this book by civil rights American lawyer, Brian Stevenson, and his work with the Equal Justice Initiative. But in his book, if anyone who's listening to the Women's Hour does not either know this book or does not know of the Equal Justice Initiative, I know this is a British program, but some of the work that they're doing is really extraordinary. We love a recommendation, especially a book recommendation. So bring it on.

The Equal Justice Initiative. Yes, tell us. book of Brian's Just Mercy, he published two, well, some letters and poetry by his clients who had been incarcerated since they were children. They were given life sentences. And the language that these people who, these young children who were incarcerated were using was so similar to all of the messaging and the metaphors that was also utilized in the poetry from these songs by people who were enslaved. And so one last piece in terms of the inspiration for this project. At the time when, again, I was going through all of the source material, I was invited to be the artist

in residence at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City. It was my first artist residency ever. And I told them that I wanted to commission 21st century songs about liberation. And they shared with me that there was going to be an exhibition going on that season featuring artists from the southeastern United States. and whose ancestors were enslaved, their work was so explicitly addressing those issues. And there were these amazing transcribed interviews that were given. And again, reading through that language, it just reminded me of the generations before. And it echoed all of the material of the young people who had been incarcerated. So all of the source material was given to composers. Black women.

That's right. And that is who's kind of building the repertoire for this entire project I mean my um my arm hairs have stood up whilst you're explaining where the inspiration has come from I can I can't even imagine what it must have been like then taking this body of work and your eye this idea to uh black female composers and saying do you want in on this what was their reaction? Well, I think they were really, I don't know if excited is the right word, but it gave each of them an opportunity to look at their own histories and to also just honour, I think, is that they have not felt maybe able uh to address so explicitly in

their work up until this moment um so when it come even came to kasey kenoshi the newest commission and that's who you're working with her in the uk yeah that's right and you know i i am so glad that the philharmonia brought her work and cast my attention. So anyway, when I shared this project with her, I said, of course, though, everything up until now has been focusing on the United States, but there absolutely should be no denial of Britain's involvement in human trafficking trade and across the Atlantic and start delving into this. And she took the lead. I left it to her to find the voice or voices that she wanted to represent or start speaking to the subject matter.

And she brought to my attention, very, very happily brought to my attention, Una Marson, who's a poet, activist, feminist and playwright who I didn't know. It's going to be an incredible evening. I mean, so powerful just from hearing you speak about it and the collaborations that you've forged. I want to talk a little bit about you and your voice because it's, well, everyone heard it. It's absolutely sublime. Just such a talent.

But you actually started at a young age as a dancer and performing in musical theatre. When did you decide that musical theatre wasn't for you and that you were going to go down the classical route? You were quite young, weren't you? Well, yeah, I mean, I guess I always knew I wanted to perform, and you're embarrassing me talking about that. Am I? Sorry. It's okay. It's only Woman's Hour.

They're very nice people who listen to the programme. Don't be embarrassed. We're a little family. Anyway, I appreciate the compliments either way. So thank you. But yes, I knew I always wanted to perform or at least express myself with my body in one way or another from a really young age. But my stepfather shared his favorite recordings

of classical singers or these singers who sang classical western european music and i was just intuitively drawn to the material in high school and it just shifted the course of my life i guess and do you find that music and protest or activism work well together is it an effective way for you get to for you to get your message across I think it has always been the arts in general have always been um connected with politics highly aware of social uh social issues and and also just the work of engaging people helping people to listen to each other so yes I do think music is an incredibly powerful tool, not only to help people join in voice together,

but, again, really to encourage the deepest form of listening. And I know that, to some extent, all women of colour who are creating art, you know, it's political. But where does your passion stem from why is it so important for you uh well i guess just my history the life that i've led all the things that i've read and reflected on um and your father a little bit well sure i mean i'm a mixed um certainly family yes had an influence i'm yeah i'm a mixed uh heritage multi-ethnicity my mother was white my dad was black and he was um deeply involved in the civil rights movement he was the president of SNCC, which was the student organization at Morehouse University, where he

went to school. And yes, I mean, he did share after a sit-in, he shared a jail cell with Martin Luther King. So, and yeah, some of my earliest memories of music are of him singing civil rights songs. He shared a jail cell with martin luther king he did yeah yeah i mean i think a lot of people a lot of people did at that time if you were protesting at that time chances are you're going to be in a jail cell with dr martin luther king well at some point um julia it's been such a pleasure speaking to you and uh and and best of luck with uh with the evening um thank you you so much for speaking to me on Women's Hour this morning. Truly a pleasure. Thank you. Julia will be performing History's Persistent

Voice at the Queen Elizabeth Hall in London on Friday, the 2nd of February. I think it's going to be quite something. Now, this one really kicked off in Women's Hour HQ this morning. Do you pay your children to do chores around the house? Well, the journalist Helen Carroll wrote in The Times saying she faced an online backlash when she mentioned in passing that she pays her son £40 a month to empty the dishwasher every day, which she says works out at £1.33 a day to put the dishes away. So do you pay your children to do chores around the house? Or were you, like me and pretty much every other Asian kid growing up in the 80s and 90s, just expected to do the chores as a child, as your

contribution to the family life and home? So is it ever okay to pay children to do chores? And if you do, how should you do it? Well, to help us navigate this minefield is parenting coach and author of Parenting Made Easy, Sue Atkins. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Sue. Come on, tell us. Thank you for having me. It's our pleasure. What should we be doing? First of all, what do you make of the story? Oh, it's so interesting, isn't it? You know, my mum was the eldest of seven and my grandad would not be paying the kids to make their bed and brush their teeth and, you know, obviously not empty the dishwasher. We're going back a bit. bit but for me it is about the we team

you know the we family team like Atkins family team so you you know make your bed you put your pajamas underneath the pillow you put your bowl away when you've had your cereal and I remember when my kids were young they're grown now my son had to empty the bin not one of his favorite things my daughter had to empty the dishwasher then Then we swapped it around a bit. It's part of responsibility. It's teaching him independence. It's the same thing like with toddlers, you know, put your toys away. It's just what you do to help the family, isn't it?

So you didn't pay your children, but why do some parents choose to pay their children to do chores? I mean, we had a range of opinions in the office and some do it as an incentive yes but it becomes transactional then they go no I'm not going to uh put that away in the cupboard because how much you're going to pay me or I'm not going to tidy that up you know what you're going to pay me um I can see it my own daughter wanted to buy a camera you know when we didn't have phones sort of thing being so good then. And my car was never so clean because, of course, she wanted to wash the car to get an extra fiver.

And actually, she really looked after that camera and she really took care of, you know, making sure she had a good time with it because she bought into it. I think really, if you're paying them, it means you haven't quite sort of mastered your expectations about why they need to do chores. And I think also then it means that the kids see life as sort of transactional and life isn't sort of like that, really. So I think you've got to be clear in it, why you want to do it, have that chat with them. But a lot of parents want to be their kid's friend and they don't set it up properly really and how they sort of suggest it so you can start very young I mean toddlers let's face it love to get the hoover out and do a bit of dusting now I'm not suggesting you're going to make them do those sorts of chores but you can

see they want to be part of what you're doing so I think if you have that conversation with them and you set it out I mean I've got a blog where I put it at ages and stages, you know, two to three-year-olds, as I say, put your toys away. Ten-year-old, you know, make your bed, bring your washing down, tidy your bowl away after cereal, get your school bag. These are all things that teach responsibility

and self-discipline. Yeah, it sounds great. But what if they don't listen? What if your ten-year-old's just like, not going to do it, sorry. But that's a parenting thing, isn't it? That's because you're not sort of assertive or you don't want what I call mean business.

You don't have to wait until it becomes a real problem and you've got resentment and you're angry that you're fussing and going around after them all the time tidying up. But it's getting clear about why you want to do it, being confident in your parenting, having a perhaps a sit down and saying, look, we've got a bit of a problem going on here.

I'm running around after you all and I want you to do some jobs so divvy the jobs out don't make it all arduous think of it more as sort of helping out rather than making them chat with them and thank them when they do it and make it a light sort of hearted touch but we are the team and we do do jobs you know my husband empties the bin every Tuesday. It's not one of his life's works. He doesn't love doing it, but he does it. You got yourself a keeper there, Sue. You got yourself a keeper.

Well, the messages are going berserk. Loads of people want to share their stories on this. So I'm going to read a few of these out. Everyone in a family should contribute to household chores, respect for others and importantly, respect for oneself and the spaces we share. Someone else says, I shared a house at university with blokes who had clearly never even boiled an egg

before never mind wash a dish. Shame on their mothers and their fathers. I'll just get out the house and find people who know how to clean. Someone else says, I shared a house at, good morning. In regards to the housework

conundrum at 12 i stood each child in front of the washing machine and said you are entering the adult world this device is going to be your friend from that point they willingly did their own laundry including bedding and towels i gave them the independence no more mom where's my shirt trousers uh p kit they reveled in the agency gave them the youngest. No more, mum, where's my shirt, trousers, PE kit. They reveled in the agency. Gave them the youngest now, 15, and blossoming. Is that how you do it? Yeah. Isn't that wonderful? You know, that's self-empowering, isn't it? Because let's face it, they're so technically savvy, they can work for dishwasher. Well, talking of tech, a lot of the banking apps actively encourage sort of paying your children.

What do you make of that? It's a balance, isn't it? Sometimes they put money in. So there's your monthly allowance sort of thing. And that's the difference. I've written about pocket money. That's slightly different, pocket money to doing chores, because then kids learn to sort of, oh, when it's gone, it's gone. You know, when you give them pocket money in our house, it was really, you know, they ate loads of sweets and bought comics because that's their money to spend it on.

As they get older and those apps are great because then you go, well, here's your allowance and this is what you can spend it on in terms of your lunch at school. So you're very clear about how you want them to be able to spend it. So they are actually learning about money and money management actually as they get older aren't they um as someone else has said here my izzy says my eight year old daughter created and decorated a table list of chores for the whole family to do each day i think she could see i was feeling a little overwhelmed by all she added her job for today as give hugs oh izzy she sounds adorable. Another message here. I have involved my son, who is now four, with chores since he first started to walk. He has a sense of pride and responsibility from being depended on to help with household tasks.

And often he's the one to instigate doing things. So he'll do things automatically, like he'll put away his shoes when he gets in from school. He'll hang his coat and hat up, put his plate and bowl in the dishwasher when he's finished and very much looking forward to when he's bigger and able to help out with the mowing of the lawn. Now, reading that, I've been triggered because I would not have been able to get away with just leaving stuff lying around.

It just wouldn't have... I mean, it's just... Put your shoes away is just a basic. Yeah. I remember actually when I came home, I was a deputy head for many years and teacher, and I came home, my son had got home earlier, you know, from the school bus and he was watching the telly with crisp packets everywhere, his shoes and his coat well, I need to do something about that. So I did one of these, like, you need to come and sit down, we need to have a chat. And then you're clear about what you want. And then it sort of eases the relationship. And then he did put his shoes away and all the rest of it. So, you know, I think it can be done nicely. You don't have to shout and

yell at it. But I think expectations are important. Because when you go out in the real world, you know, people are not going to tidy up after you, are they at work? Very true. So do you agree then, Sue, we need your opinion on this? You've already talked about parents being assertive, you don't need to be their friends, but what about this whole, what's the balance between the carrot and the stick when it comes to chores? That's a good one, isn't it? It's about, if you know your why, and if you think, well, I want to teach them responsibility, independence, being part of a team, and it's good for their self-confidence and their self-esteem because they achieve something and they feel good about that so if you know your why then think about

how you're going to do it when you're going to sort of talk to them about it and then stick to your guns you know it's what I call meaning business it's being an assertive parent not an angry one and making sure that you do have to remind them. So I often think create a poster, stick it up in the kitchen, because then you can remind them that actually, you know, your job this week is to empty the bins or whatever you've got to do. Oh, Sue, this has been so interesting. There might be some kids getting pay cuts after listening to this. I don't think they're going to be very happy. Thank you so much for speaking to us this morning. Pleasure. Nice to be on. Thanks a lot.

Hilary has emailed to say, children learn by observation and pick up what needs to be done, such as making beds or washing up, without framing things as chores. They will gradually learn what needs to be done in life without turning it into a big thing or turning it into a commercial or punitive exercise. We certainly didn't raise our kids to be skivvies, either paid or unpaid,

and they will have their whole adult lives to perform boring domestic jobs on their own behalves. Let's let kids be kids. Keep your thoughts coming in. Now, you might remember on the programme, we spoke to Steph Daniels, amazing woman in her 70s who decided to take up hockey again

after giving it up in her 30s to become a PE teacher. Here she is telling us what it was that brought her back to hockey. I saw a picture in the local Bedford paper about walking hockey and I'd never really heard about walking hockey. And I thought, oh, have I still got my stick? Would it still be the right shape? Could I still play? Would I still have my skills? So I thought I'd go along and see.

And so it's a wonderful group it's a wonderful community of walkers men women all ages and during the pandemic it was a lifesaver for all of us because we could play outside we could have fun we could have contact with people and get fit so the physical and mental health of health walking hockey is fantastic. But yes, I mean, not everybody's into sport. I mean, you can do music, you can join a choir. I mean, to do a team, something in a team is so unusual for women. Once you leave school, most women don't ever play in a team again. So to play a team sport or being in an orchestra or a choir, or just going down to the gym and being with other people go for it there's so many things women can do these days that was Steph Daniels who took up

hockey again in her 70s just her voice was so energetic and inspiring wasn't it and this got us thinking about reigniting old passions we want to hear from you I said old passions not old flames um we want to hear from you maybe you thought you passions, not old flames. We want to hear from you. Maybe you thought you'd left. Well, you could reignite an old flame, maybe. That as well. Get in touch with us. If you'd left belly dancing behind, but now spend Thursdays shimmying in the sports hall,

we want to hear from you. If you packed away the power tools, but a tempting project called you out to say, dust off the power tool. Maybe you've spritzed up some old recipes and become a gourmet chef. We want to hear about it all. Get in touch in the usual way. Text us on

84844. Drop us a note via social media at BBC Woman's Hour. And of course you can email us through the website. We'd love to feature your stories in a new series. So let us know what it is you've picked up again. So many messages still coming through about chores. Oh chores. Such a trigger.

Might have to turn off. Kids should do chores. i'm rubbish at this parenting lark and as a much older mother i'd rather not waste my energy and years arguing with my sons and someone else mary says hi woman's hour we had two levels of money for our four boys um chores were paid for if they didn't do it they weren't they didn't get paid conditional pay number, pocket money always given each week and was unconditional. This strategy we adopted from a wonderful book called Happy Children. It talks about license versus responsibility. Very enlightening. And I am a grandmother now, so I'm going back many years.

Thank you for that, Mary. On to my next quest. It's time to take a dive into the world of the supernatural, but with an unexpected twist. Witches and the modern dating scene. Coming your way on January the 31st is a new drama on BBC3 called Domino Day. It's all about a group of witches in modern day Manchester. The creative genius behind this series is Lauren Sequeira, whose series The Dumping Ground was nominated for a BAFTA. And I'm delighted to say that Lauren is here. Hi. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thanks for having me. It is my absolute pleasure.

Congratulations. Thank you. First original series for the BBC. What an achievement. I watched the first episode last night. It's right up my street. Oh brilliant. Got a fan here. You have. Domino Day that's the name of the main character. Tell us what it's all about. Yeah, so Domino Day is a very powerful witch who is haunted by her need to feed on the energy of others. So she goes on the apps, she swipes, finds a hunt, a prey, feeds from them and then blocks them and moves on. But she's unaware that a coven of witches are following her every move and are convinced they need to stop her. Yes. Juicy stuff.

Juicy stuff. Why witches? Where did the idea come from? I mean, I love the supernatural. I watch all those shows like Buffy, True Blood, The Vampire Diaries, and I think the Americans, they just do it so well and all the time, and I just really wanted to write a UK based supernatural drama, but also looked at real world relationships and how we connect to each other and the app culture. And you have placed women of colour, black women in this genre.

Yes. Look at you. It was like the biggest priority, like the three strongest witches in the show are all black women. And I'm so proud of their performances as well. Yeah, the performances are amazing. I mean, it's an obvious question, but why? Why was it so important to? Being a black woman myself and just the supernatural dramas that are out there, like they're never in the leading roles, you know, and it was just really important to me to sort of show that representation. We've just heard from the amazing 70-year-old hockey player talking about women getting into teams

and the camaraderie and what that can do for you. What was this project like working on it and what was it like behind the camera and in front of camera? What was that feeling like? I sort of treated it like this is my coven. So it's sort of the themes of the show I tried to put behind the show. Like we've got female writers and we've got female directors, and it was really important to sort of centre that female experience of dating and relationships at the centre of this project. Yeah, yes, yes. so you focus on the modern day dating scene

why did you want to put that in the heart of it I mean I'm in it she's in it I've got so many experiences and it's just like how most people date now and you know it has its pros and its cons and I really wanted to show how it could be used by this supernatural creature to sort of find prey so the first in the first and it's not a spoiler, because this is only the first episode, the first guy she goes, I mean... Jason, yeah, Jason. Oh, I was actually shouting at the screen.

He ordered her drink for her. Yes, red wine. He's never even met her before and he just, oh, come on. Like, why, why why just walk away um but then she finds he basically attempts to rape her and he's uh unbeknownst to her he's filming the experience yeah um i read that when you were in the sixth film there was a guy at your school who used to film girls yeah and is that why that detail went in the show and how much of this is based on your own experience? Absolutely.

I mean, yeah, that guy, back when obviously we were 16 and it was sort of before a lot of social media became prevalent, like the TikTok and the Instagram. But the fact that he did that and it was my boyfriend at the time told me about it. I think he tried to show and it was just awful. I was just flabbergasted. And it's always stayed with me. So, yeah yeah in the first

10 minutes of the first episode i really wanted to explore that but flip it and make who he thinks is the victim become the powerful one and take advantage it's terrifying i mean i don't know whether you're listening to the beginning of the program but we were talking about some a lot of research that's been done into misconceptions around around. And the younger generation, 18 to 24-year-olds, hold more misconceptions and think truths are truths than older generations. I just wondered what your take on that might be. Yeah, I mean, the word consent, I don't think it's still understood.

So the fact that Domino goes back home with this guy, it's like he's taken that as consent in a way, like, you know, I can do whatever I want with you, taken that as consent in a way like you know I can do whatever I want with you and it's that's like wrong you know and that's why I wanted to make him the victim in the end and so and that's the moment where the supernatural world is sort of announced as well but yeah no it's a it's a big problem uh with society at the moment and yeah it needs to be talked about more and doing what you do creating art yeah so talking points absolutely um i love the female friendships and women supporting women in

this series as well uh so i think we should hear a clip of when sammy meets domino tell us who sammy is sammy is an empath witch she's the first one that notices domino and she can sort of read her aura and can tell that she's sort of struggling with what she's having to do with the whole feeding. So, yeah. This is when Sammy meets Domino. We've been watching you. We?

Back oven. We want to understand you. You better get in line by me. What did you learn? That you're doing something to humans. Oh God. Wait, but you don't want to be. Your whole aura is full of conflict. I know it must be hard, but you can talk to me. It's beautiful, just that bit. It's about domino and a journey of self-discovery, isn't it? Yeah, and just needing to find a community,

a sisterhood to sort of help. That, for me, is the most important thing that any woman can have in life. It's not so much the romantic relationships. It is that sisterhood. Who's in your sisterhood? Oh, my friend Romina. I've got, yeah, I've got lots of people around me.

Lots of strong black women as well. They're like parts of their characters I've put, parts of their, yeah, their personalities I've put in the characters. Have they watched it with you and tried to guess? Not yet. No, I haven't shared it actually. Why is it important to have that community of black women around you? Because I just don't think we see it often. And, you know, as black women, there's so many obstacles, hidden obstacles that we have to like deal with every day. And it's that sisterhood, you know, sharing our experiences with each other you

know whether we're fetishized on the dating scene or something you know I had to put that in the first episode as well oh yeah her skin yes I've had that oh yeah oh no oh no yeah I've had this as well um I don't normally fancy black women but that's in episode two oh yeah okay maybe I did watch more than one episode maybe I had to stop stop. Maybe I started finishing it. Yeah. Yeah. So it's just, you know, those experiences, you sort of need that, that sisterhood to just navigate it and, you know, work through it emotionally with each other. So, and, you know, I fully understand that it's hard. And yes, life experience is different when you're a woman of colour. So I want to talk about how you've attained your incredible success as well, because to be sitting here talking about your series on the BBC.

I know it's an incredible achievement, but you have written for other TV shows. I mentioned The Dumping Ground that was nominated for a BAFTA. You also wrote an episode for the series Gangs of London heavily focused on male violence against women what was it like writing that I mean the team behind it were so like amazing and grounded and yeah I mean as it's a very male show there's a lot of male characters um and in the particular episode I was given you know there there there is a woman who is being tortured. And it was, I had to go to dark places to get there, I must admit. But I just think in terms of like what the show gave people at the time in the pandemic, it was, I don't know, it just, it was an adrenaline, a bolt of adrenaline that people needed, I guess. And did you see a difference in the phone calls you were getting and the emails you were receiving once you got your BAFTA nomination?

Oh, yeah, yeah. But I'm very particular about what I take on. I just really, I don't want to be typecast and it's got to resonate with me somehow. So how do you find that you're in a position where you can say the very powerful word no? I mean my agent it's just like reasoning out with my agent and yeah it's got to speak like I've got to be able to emotionally sit in what the story is saying and find a way to bring some of my own experiences in because once I can do that it feels real it feels authentic to me. And my own experiences in. Because once I can do that, it feels real. It feels authentic to me. And now you're in this incredible position where you have a seat at the table and you can turn work down if you don't want to.

Yeah. It's still weird when you do it. You're always like, oh, is this the right decision? But yeah. And, you know, you're still at the beginning of your career, even though you've got such huge success. So what's, I mean, obviously writing well, what's your plan to go forward?

Like what else would you like to do apart from telling stories and reframing them and having women of colour in there? What more? I'd love to get on the property ladder. Very good. It's the millennial problem. In terms of the industry?

In the industry. I mean, I would, I just really still want to tell stories, really authored stories. I'd love to tell more supernatural drama as well and just really showcase that the UK can do it just as well as the Americans and that we have things to say about our own why do you think I mean we talk it often comes up where people talk about how Americans do things not better differently why do you why what what Why do you think that is? I think it's just the sheer scale of the country.

It's, you know, their budgets and everything. Yeah, I just think the audience is just bigger for genre shows over there. You know, you're going into the millions, but there's always an audience for it. You know, YA books, you know, always that are supernatural focus, always have that audience. it. You know, YA books, you know, always, that are supernatural focus, always have that audience.

I mean, yeah. I mean, always been obsessed with witches, but who have a dirty name? Yeah. We are reclaiming that. Yeah. Yeah. We've been talking about chores and whether or not,

I mean, you should be paying your children to do them. Were you made to do them at home? Were you paid to do them? I was, yeah. You were paid well yeah five five pound i remember it was like to do what um hoover and the dishes yeah very good yeah i was given nothing oh absolutely nothing i think i actually came home and said oh sally gets the quid to clean the car and my dad just laughed and walked away oh i was never asked

to clean the car actually no i wasn't trusted it's been an absolute joy speaking to you thank you i want to wish you the best of luck with the series i um might have already been trotched it um uh thank you so much thank you thanks for having me door open for you anytime you want to come back and speak to us thanks to all of you for getting in touch another message here some 20 years ago i had two of my kids and two step kids in a large house they got five pounds a week while they were in our house. That was pocket money, but they needed to keep rooms clean, tidy up, and they had a rotor for all the housework. So no argument. It was fair. It was work ethic thing. I'm Graham. Thank you, Graham. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour, where we'll be hearing from rapper Princess Superstar,

who's had a big hit at the age of 52. Her song Perfect features in the film Saltburn. See you then. you you you That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. 30 years ago, Britain's farms were hit by an epidemic of an infectious brain disorder. They called it mad cow disease. I'm Lucy Proctor, and in The Cows Are Mad from BBC Radio 4, I tell the story of a very weird time in our history.

The media started calling me the mad cow professor. Mad cow disease rampaged through Britain, first killing cows and then humans. And the thing is, after all this time, nobody knows for sure where mad cow disease originally came from. The general feeling is that we will never know the answer. Subscribe to The Cows Are Mad on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.