Woman's Hour - Lawyer Harriet Wistrich, Chef Asma Khan, ACL injuries and women

Episode Date: May 2, 2024

Lawyer Harriet Wistrich is the founder and director of Centre for Women's Justice. She joins Anita Rani to talk about her new book, Sister in Law, which looks into 10 of her hard-won cases over 30 years. They include Sally Challen’s appeal against her conviction for the murder of her husband, the victims of the taxi driver John Worboys, and the women caught up in the 'Spy Cops' scandal. Cases that she says demonstrate that "terrifyingly often, the law is not fit-for-purpose for half the population".Boris Johnson's son Wilf's fourth birthday party has been gaining attention online, after pictures were shared on social media of his celebration featuring a monster truck bouncy castle with separate ball pit, and a bespoke balloon display. Have we finally reached the point of the ridiculous when it comes to children's parties? Journalist Anna Tyzack, who wrote an article about this very subject in the i newspaper, and one half of the comedy duo Scummy Mummies, Helen Thorn, join Anita to discuss. The risk of ACL injuries in female football players is up to six times higher than their male counterparts. Leeds Beckett University is leading a new study into why this risk rate is so high and the impact on athletes. Knee surgeon to the sports stars Andy Williams explains why this may be happening and footballer Emma Samways, of Hashtag United in Essex, tells us about her ACL injury from earlier on this year.Chef Asma Khan has just been named as one of the 100 most influential people of the 2024, by the Time magazine. Asma is the founder of the London restaurant, Darjeeling Express, which has a women-only kitchen, mostly made up of South Asian immigrants over the age of 50. Asma has been a vocal champion for gender equality, and she talks about the change she wants to see in the restaurant industry.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Olivia Skinner

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to Thursday's programme. We'll be discussing birthday parties today, or rather kids' birthday parties. Sorry if that's hit a nerve or given you flashbacks. I'd like to know what your style of celebration is. Are you a curated guest list of six-year-olds and a designer party bag kind of person?

Or is your style more invite the entire class and get down the park? Is there pressure to throw a bigger and better party than that smug mum at the school gates? There's always one apparently. Do you get more excited than the children and plan months in advance? Or are you haphazard and spontaneous? Share your children's birthday party stories with me. How do they compare to your own?

Are they now out of control? Do you dread the pressure? Share it all. Get it off your chest and you can remain anonymous. Get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You could email me via our website or you can contact us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour.

And of course, you can send me a WhatsApp or a voice note. Save it in your phone under Woman's Hour. It's 03700 100 444. Then what a line-up we have. Feminist lawyer Harriet Wistrich will be joining me to discuss her remarkable 30 years of fighting for justice for women and why she's decided to write a book about her life and work. It's called Sister-in-Law. Chef, restaurateur, cookbook author and all-round powerhouse Asma Khan has been named as one of Time magazine's most influential people of 2024

and she's found time to speak to us. And ACL injuries, why are women footballers much more likely to get this sort of knee injury? We'll be discussing that as well. And of course, your thoughts and opinions. Welcome, as always, on anything you hear on the programme today. That text number once again, 84844. But first, feminist lawyer Harriet Wistrich, founder and director of the Centre for Women's Justice, has had a remarkable 30-year legal career. Harriet has been at the forefront of some historic and groundbreaking legal victories, challenging the police, the Crown Prosecution Service,

government departments and even the prison system to think again about the brutality women endure. But these cases, she says, demonstrate that terrifyingly often the law is not fit for purpose for half the population. And she's written about it. As of today, her book is out called Sister-in-Law. It looks into 10 of her hard-won cases over her career.

High-profile cases many of us will remember. Sally Challen's appeal against her conviction for the murder of her husband. The victims of the taxi driver John Warboys and the women caught up in the spy cop scandal to name a few. And I'm delighted to say Harriet joins me now in the Woman's Hour studio. Welcome, Harriet. Good morning. Thank you very much. Why did you decide to write a book? Well, I was slightly cajoled into it by friends and others who were approaching me and saying, look, why don't you write a book? This is, you know, so many interesting cases.

And I just thought, I just haven't got time. How on earth am I going to fit writing in a book with all the all the work I have to do? But gradually I was persuaded to give it a go and I'm really, really pleased I did because it gave me really an opportunity to reflect on the work I've done, the way I've approached it and to really think about the stories and what makes those cases so important and how those battles were won or fought. And so today on the day of publication, having written the book and had time to reflect on your career, how do you feel now? I'm very proud and I'm very pleased that the book is published. I'm pleased to provide that voice. We had an event at the Centre for Women's Justice last night and it was a very moving event where many women came and talked about how important it is to see those cases

and to see those battles fought and to feel that there is someone fighting for them and to think about ways in which we can continue that battle going forward. I refer to three significant cases there in the introduction, but I want to go back a little bit and talk to you about what's driven this remarkable career to fight for justice for women? Because you didn't start out going straight into law, did you? You came to it later in your 30s. Yeah. Well, I would say, first and foremost, it was my passion for feminism and for women's liberation. And in fact, when I was thinking about what I wanted to do with myself, I actually thought I'd like to try and get into the media somehow. by trying to speak to and communicate to wide numbers of people would be a good way to influence and put across my ideas.

You wanted to make documentaries, is that right? Yeah, I was interested in filmmaking and I did sort of start along that route but I found it a very frustrating area to work in and to do the things you really wanted to do. And at the same time, I continued with my sort of daytime feminist activism. And I got involved in a campaign through a friend who asked if a group of us could try and organise a demonstration outside the Royal Courts of Justice around the appeal of Sarah Thornton, who was a woman who'd killed her husband back in the late 80s and had been convicted of murder.

And we did do that campaign. And in fact, then we became aware of a number of other cases. Kirinjit Aluwalia was another famous case that was being led by a campaign by Southall Black Sisters. And through that campaigning, I kind of got very interested in the law and the way in which the law discriminated against women. And then we were contacted by a young woman called Emma Humphreys, who had been in prison by then for seven years. She was only 17 when she killed a violent man who had been her pimp and, you know, posing as her boyfriend but had been very abusive towards her. And approached a solicitor to see if he could help

and he said, I really need a volunteer to get Emma's story. And as I was a bit on the brink of not sure what I was doing with myself, I decided to volunteer. I had a friend who was a barrister. And she was saying, maybe you should think about going into the law. So I volunteered and worked with Emma Humphreys and kind of got us, took her statement perhaps a bit more in the way you might do if you were thinking about making a film or a radio piece or something about someone's story, sort of telling that story. And through that case, we then worked with lawyers and we campaigned and we campaigned. What were you campaigning for? We were basically campaigning for justice for Emma Humphreys. of the justice system around the sort of severe abuse, the difficulty women have of speaking

and of articulating those experiences. And so we were campaigning more broadly but focused on Emma Humphrey's case. And ultimately we won her appeal in 1995. It was a fantastic moment. It was also almost the same time that I just finished my legal studies. So I'd started studying to become a solicitor. And, you know, that was that was a great sort of start and a lead in from there into into my career.

Why did you decide not to become a barrister? I, so when I was, I did the law course and I, you know, you have to choose either to train as a solicitor or a barrister. I was quite attracted to the idea of being a barrister. But I thought that actually, as a solicitor, you work directly with the clients. And I felt that that was where my strength would be. And that's where I wanted to be to build the case, working with the client story first and foremost. You have worked on some high profile cases. I'd like to ask you about a couple of them, some of the bigger cases. How did you get involved in Sally Challen's case? Just a reminder, she's the woman who was jailed for life for the murder of her husband with a minimum tariff of 22 years, despite her son saying she was provoked beyond endurance.

So throughout my legal career since I started, I'd been involved in this campaign group, I mentioned Justice for Women, which was specifically focused around the issue of women who kill their violent abusers. And so through that campaign and through, I continued to represent women mainly at the Court of Appeal who'd been convicted of murder. So although I was doing lots of other types of legal work, that continued to be a focus. And when Sally was convicted uh of murder in 2010 i think um her a relative she she had a nephew who was a a corporate lawyer and uh her

her a relative wrote to me and said that they felt that the case wasn't there was something not right and the case hadn't been fought in the right way and that the history of the provocation that she'd been subjected to had not really come out and would I look at her appeal? And so I agreed to look at it, although when I read the newspaper headlines and the story, you know, initially it was she was

portrayed as a as an obsessive jealous woman who'd killed out of jealousy and it just there was something that didn't really ring true about that and also from the work we've done with those cases we know often that this narratives come out about these stories that actually don't reflect what actually happened underneath. So we had to do a lot of work together to try and get beneath that story to find out what happened. And what was happening in Sally's case? Well, basically, her story was that she was subject to total control, coercive control from Richard. Coercive controlling behaviour was a term that wasn't widely understood. So it wasn't an offence until 2015.

And so the nature of that abuse wasn't widely understood. And that was sort of ended up being the sort of opening to get into an appeal around her conviction and what does it feel like there's a great photograph i saw of you and sally outside the old bailey in 2019 with you punching the air the huge smile on your face because she won her appeal against her murder conviction yes we did and it was a very, very tough case to fight on the facts and on the law. And, you know, it was by no means, although we built up a lot of support by speaking out and David Challen, who you mentioned, Sally's son, was incredible in campaigning in support of his mother and that voice from the family, you know, he was the son of Richard that she'd killed, but he basically said, look, I blame my dad for what happened. And that was such a powerful sentiment. And so there was a sense of justice, that justice wasn't reflected in the outcome.

But legally, it was an incredibly difficult battle. So when we eventually got there and we won freedom for Sally after a retrial in which she pleaded guilty to manslaughter, you know, that was just a huge relief. What impact did making controlling behaviour, as you mentioned, coercive control illegal in 2015 have more broadly on on all the cases that have come since well i i think we have a long way to go a very very long way to go before that coercive and controlling behavior is more widely understood so although i think it's a very important step that it's it's there now in law because it it provides a a basis but we know through the work of centre for women's justice that so many cases which do meet the the threshold or the terms for coercive controlling behavior are not necessarily being understood but it's a start because because because there is now a legal framework so it's a start to try and build on that

and kind of create an understanding so that people begin to understand the nature of a relationship which entraps a woman so that she is kind of basically, has lost her liberty through the way in which that coercive and controlling behaviour works. I read one of your quotes saying that men kill through anger, women kill through fear. Yes, I mean, that again goes back to the initial campaigning that we did

with Sarah Thornton and Kiran Jitalawalia and others. The original defence of provocation, which has since been reformed, was about, which reduced a murder conviction to manslaughter, was about explosion. It was really about some insult which caused you to explode in anger and kill. And that's a very male response.

And so men were succeeding in using this defence of provocation, whereas women, who might have been subjected to ongoing slow drip provocation through coercive controlling behaviour and violence and so on, but could not sort of explode in anger at somebody who may be physically stronger than them. So they weren't succeeding with the defences and were being convicted of murders. But their response was about the fear of the entrapment and not seeing a way out. I want to mention the quote that I said in the opener. You say that terrifyingly

often the law is not fit for purpose for half the population. What do you mean? Well, as I've described in these particular types of cases, you see that the law is designed and works around men's experiences, really. And sometimes the law is supposed to be a neutral thing. And on the whole, you know, it's it's it's not it's it's gender neutral, if you like. But in terms of the way in which it's interpreted in the way that, you know, we have a whole layer basically of attitudes, myths, stereotypes and understanding about how women are supposed to behave, how men are supposed to behave. And that kind of interferes with a supposedly neutral kind of law, if you like, a set of rules. And so those rules are actually working

very much against women, particularly in relation to issues of criminal justice. You've been going for 30 years. It's relentless. And you say in your book, bumpy and unpredictable and sometimes gruelling, the two of the phrases you use. How do you keep going? How do you hold your faith?

I think it's really about, well, one is that you want to see the end. You know, I don't like giving up on a fight. And these fights can take years and years, so sometimes nine, ten years, Well, one is that you want to see the end. You know, I don't like giving up on a fight. And these fights can take years and years, so sometimes nine, ten years. And so you just want to see that through. You want to get to the end. You want to try and achieve justice. So it's partly about the length of those stories. But I think the thing that perhaps keeps you going most is just how much people really say,

we need you, you know, you're creating some sort of hope. I mean, I think things are very dire and continue to be dire in the criminal justice system for women. But what's most important is that there's a sense of hope that there are people out there fighting for them and if we give up or go away then that hope disappears and I think that's key really is just to kind of keep battling. But how do you get the energy?

Because after three decades you've just said things continue to be dire we often talk about the very low rape conviction rates on this program and all the high profile cases of women being murdered in we've talked about on on woman's hour so what keeps you motivated and and is there and are things changing I think things are changing in some ways. You see changes, but, you know, you also see backlashes. So it's, I think it's just, I mean, actually, the work is incredibly enriching and engaging and, you know, fascinating. And the stories are fascinating. Women's stories are fascinating. The way in which women survive, engaging with that, thinking, engaging with a kind of creative and collaborative approach, working with others, finding ways, finding solutions to really difficult problems. And that's very motivating, I'd say.

And how do you unwind? How do you relax at the end of a hard day's work? Well, the work never ends i i mean generally i um you know try and watch something on television but i do i do like a good uh you like it you like a late night disco this is what i'm getting at harry tell me about your i'm mangling for an invite to be honest yeah well i do i do as as those who know me quite well is i I am known as a bit of a groover and also as DJ Hazard. During the lockdown, I used to run a weekly disco party. DJ Hazard, amazing. But yes, I love to dance and groove on down the disco. And you've got your dog Ruby and your partner of decades,

the writer and activist Julie Bindle at home. That's right. She's fantastic, great support. And really, you know, we've worked together so much around things and she's very, very supportive and encouraging for me. And you've written this book, you've gone through this process of looking back at, you know, your successes, your losses, thinking about your career. It's not often people will have an

opportunity or the time to be able to do that. How do you feel differently about yourself in some way? I think as you know, I've been very, very lucky to have the success that I have with the work I've done. And that does give you a sense of of confidence and you know satisfaction really that that I've done something that's that's made a difference. Thank you so much for coming in to speak to me this morning Harriet Westchurch and the book is out today it's called Sister in Law a great read thank you 84844 is the number to text lots of you getting in touch about children's birthday parties which we're going to move on to next

Someone here says Hello, my kids had a variety of parties and they often reminisce about them My daughter turned 14 last week and decided to plan her own gathering with six friends including past the parcel for old time's sake

after wrapping 18 layers each with a packet of sweets in My daughter exclaimed Mum, I totally respect the effort you put into my parties i had no idea how time consuming it is another one here my top tip for children's parties when navigating split parenting when my children were small my ex-husband was able to afford costly parties at external venues while i could only manage party games and tea at home we agreed to alternate year on year one year i did party for my son and

their dad did a party for my daughter the next year we swapped this took away the element of competition and taught the children a valuable lesson that something that might not seem fair in any one year can be evened up over time and that's from wendy 84844 the text number so when was the last time you went to a children's birthday party and what was it like? Images of Boris Johnson's son Wilf's fourth birthday party have been gaining a bit of attention online after Carrie Johnson shared pictures on Instagram of quite an extravagant celebration featuring a monster truck bouncy castle with separate ball pit and a bespoke balloon display. So have we finally reached the point of the ridiculous when it comes to children's parties? What's wrong with a good old game of pin the tail on the donkey and a cupcake? Joining me to discuss this controversial issue are journalist Anna Tyzak, who wrote an article about this very subject in the iNewspaper

and one half of the comedy duo Scrummy Mummies, Helen Thorne, the parents of a 12-year-old boy and a 15-year-old girl. Anna, Helen, welcome. I said there, what's wrong with a pin the tail on the donkey and a 15 year old girl anna helen welcome um i said there what's wrong with a uh a pin the tail on the donkey and a cupcake if you grew up in yorkshire in the 80s a cupcake it's a birthday party i know i'm gonna start with you um you say you've stopped giving children's birthday parties because they're exhausting and expensive well and, and that sounds really mean. It does. Do your children know this? Yes, and actually they agree

because they get to a stage where they're a bit older and it seems a bit overwhelming to have, I don't know, 15 or 20 people celebrating with you and actually just giving your children a bit of time and a bit of love for the day is actually more exciting than, you know, a massive display of, I don't know, celebration from, you know, with a lot of people that maybe they don't know that well.

How many children do you have, Anna? I have five children. Five. Anna, how old, ranging from? Ranging from 11 down to 15 months. Okay. And I don't begrudge carry at all i mean i've done that as well i mean you just throw everything at it because it is so intimidating the thought of having a load of three or four year olds in your house or in a church hall or whatever because you

know we're not professional entertainers and the fact is that you have to enter you have to invite everyone i mean rightly so you know if there's 15 in the class at nursery or there's 30 in the class at school you know in those younger years the teachers say that you have to invite everyone and you therefore you really do need an entertainer unless you're brilliant entertaining children and I'm just not it's just not my thing um so I went went for that you know went for the entertainer but you know it's better i think now to have smaller more intimate kind of celebration um i bet there's lots of people going oh she's got five kids come on give the woman some sympathy here she's got a lot i love how you said my children agree

they've aged 11 to 15 months and they completely agree i don't know i mean sorry yeah the choice is the three-year-old wouldn't the three-year-old wants to have a party just like wilps which which is why i'm very glad he hasn't seen the pictures of the monster truck bouncy castle, which looks amazing, and, you know, the balloon display. He would like all that, but he won't be getting it. Let's see what Helen thinks about all of this. Helen, I do question who some of these parties are for.

Is it for the children or the parents? Oh, look, it's absolutely about showing off, especially in the earlier years. And you get caught up with it. You do. You know, one person has the elaborate swimming party and all that sort of stuff. And my daughter's first birthday with all the classmates was a Doctor Who party. I had a massive blue cake like a TARDIS. I'd wrapped up the dog in silver paint, you know, in silver foil. Like it was insane. And I still get panic attacks about that, you know, the three minutes before everyone arrives and you're just screaming

at everyone because you want it to be wet. This has to be a good time. And no one's having a good time. There's too much sugar, too much pressure. And there's probably mums, you know, having a white wine and a plastic cup in the background going, why are we all here? And I think now my kids are older. Absolutely right.

What they want is your time. They want a cake. Doesn't matter if you've made it. I once made a cake for my son and I dropped it just before everyone arrived. And so in a panic, what I did, I said, quick, get the trucks. These were my monster trucks, Boris Johnson. I just got trucks from the toy box and said, it's a construction site. And then everything was fine.

Didn't matter if it was full of dust. We all just need to calm down just a little bit. I love how it's like everyone's having a great time. It's a party and mum's having a bit of a nervous breakdown in the corner. Or certainly afterwards. Any disasters in your previous children's parties Anna? I did have one disaster when I booked the entertainer for the wrong day so we were all there the whole party waiting for this wonderful entertainer to arrive and I ended up having to do the entertainment myself which is really hard you know they they look at you with little bored faces very quickly um and uh you quickly humiliate yourself in front of all the

other parents um yeah the expectation from the children is just so high they are there to have fun and yeah you don't want to have to provide it why not just invite the whole class i mean could you not just do it in a town yeah what's wrong with like what's wrong with just going to the park what why has it become this stressful environment why not just invite everybody and go to the park I ask naively I think there's just this whole industry out there sort of developed you know to make sure that parents keep up with the joneses when it comes to parties so just pitching up to the park and you know having a cake you know it's probably fine when they're two or three but by four they'll be like you know but where's the bouncy castle where's the it's awful I don't I don't want it to be like that I would I think that the what children actually want is something

that's not overwhelming they want you know if you if you as a parent are overwhelmed chances are your children are overwhelmed too and they'll cling to you during their own birthday party which is clearly you know ridiculous um you want them to be having a great time. But I think that, yeah, it's got out of control because also parents are really busy. You know, you don't have time to spend a week sort of making balloon displays and baking cakes. And so you end up just throwing money at the problem

and then you raise the bar and then the next parent feels pressure and it creates this ridiculous party industry. Someone's just written in to say, as a Punjabi Anita, you will know that when it comes to partying, culturally, the ethos is to invite everyone. Far overrides the small inclusive. This is true. My mother would invite the entire class. Yeah, yeah. But that's wonderful, isn't it? Everyone feels special there. Yeah, but we didn't have a bouncy castle or anything like that. I think you're right.

The children's expectations of what they want is a lot more, it's very different now, isn't it? Helen, when it comes to party games, surely there were a lot more cutthroat when we were kids. Oh, absolutely. And that's what I find so hilarious now is that pass the parcel isn't a competition. You may as well just give everyone a bag of sweet

and cut out cut out the element of surprise because this is the thing in our day you know someone got like a box of wooden pencils at the end yeah does that not happen now yeah no no every every layer you have to have a bag bag of sweets right and so everyone has to win a prize. You're catering for everyone. And, you know, that's not real life. Not everyone gets the prize. What are we doing to our children? And I think, you know, and I do get it. You're like, you want the bespoke birthday party for your child.

And my child was very much into animals. So one year I had the bug man come over and all these little girls were sitting down. And my daughter was fearless. But turns out the other 10 girls were not. And when the tarantulas came out, there was a lot of screaming. So sometimes just play it down a little bit. Maybe get the tarantulas for a home visit. That would be my advice.

No spiders. I just wonder what happens when you're in a school where everyone's socioeconomic backgrounds are really different and your kid's going to a party where, you know, a fancy mum can throw a fancy party and maybe you can't. You know, what happens then? Or if you're the child that has gone to a party and is disappointed because little Johnny didn't have whatever you were expecting

at the bouncy castle and his mum just decided to put a samosa on a plate and that was it, which is great, by the way. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's it. And that's, you know, kids are very aware from very early age about, you know, those just, you know, big gaps. And I think that's hard. And it's hard not to say you can't have that party and you can have that party.

But I think, yeah, I think if we all simplify things a little bit and as you said, you know, your kids just want your time and they don't care if you have a three-tier cake and a monster truck at all. They just want a few bags of sweets and I think it has got out of hand. And social media, obviously, there's elaborate WhatsApp groups in three months leading up to parties with all sorts of requests. You know, you might have a trampoline park in Aberdeen, you know, and a carpool. It's just getting out of hand.

Anna, what's the best tip? Go on. It's just not about how much money you spend doesn't necessarily translate to how much fun the children have. That's just the fact. And so you have to, you know the children have that's the that you know that's just the fact and so you have to you know I think that's why that you can have quite a simple party with loads of people like you were saying and they could they'll all have a great time you just have to have the confidence to do that which most of us don't uh what's the best children's party you've ever done Anna well the one that has gone down the best was actually this Easter holidays which was it was the most simple party ever my it was my son's 10th birthday. We went to the beach, him and his brother swam in the sea, which was freezing, but they all got a real kick out of that. And then we went out for lunch and

then had a birthday cake at tea with the grandparents. And he told me three times that day, this is the best birthday I've ever had, which was just ridiculous given the amount of effort I've gone to in the past. Winning. Well done. And Helen, with older children, does the pressure to have parties disappear? It does. It does. But they get sneakier because they want to sleep over and they pretend they're asleep, but they're not, Anita. They're not asleep. You've got to lock all the doors. Honestly, that's the real stress. That's for another time. Oh, my goodness. Lock the liquor cabinet. Teenage sleepovers.

Right, we'll come back to that one. Thank you both for joining me, Anna Tyzak and Helen Thorne. Loads of you getting in touch about this. My niece had a party at home, passed the parcel, picnic on the floor, painted nails and fake tattoos and free play for kids. On Monday, my niece reported her friends had said it was the best party they'd ever been to. Success. Carmen in Saltburn, hello Carmen, says my son is seven.

He's autistic. He hates other people's parties. The amount of parties we've walked into and walked straight back out of with his head buried in my coat. But he loves to have his own party. I'm a community artist and run his parties like creative workshops.

I like the sound of this. It's structured so he can handle it. Last birthday, it titanic themed and we did build a boat challenge wow all parents joined in even dads it's a massive effort i'm knackered but it's worth it there's a different way to do things especially when children are different your thoughts keep them coming in 84844 now tomorrow on woman's hour there a phone-in on the subject of boys, bringing them up, the issues they face, and even just what it's like to be one in 2024. I'm going to be joined by Catherine Carr,

and if you were listening to Woman's Hour on Monday, you'll have heard her talking about her Radio 4 series about the boys. She talked to boys from all over the UK about friendship, school, life online, consent, masculinity, like, assault. As lads, we do like, let's say, break time, we do like having a mess about or having a chat or maybe play fighting, but that's just us, innit?

And these are the type of things you get judged on. But, you know, it's different with girls because that's not how they interact and, you know, that's not their banter. When I was younger, I sort of thought that maybe I couldn't be a man at all, or, like, the person I am is, like, somehow less of a man. I don't want to sound rude here, but we don't really care about, like, cosmetics

or getting our nails done, hanging out with friends, having a party. We just want to relax. They think that we're not soft inside. And some boys, they act like they're hardcore or, you know, but it's really hard to open up as a boy. That's going to be fascinating. What do you think about the experiences and attitudes of teenage boys? Do get in touch and join me tomorrow

as we explore the often overlooked world of boys. It's a phone-in, so get in touch with me. You can text me on 84844 and you can contact me on social media. It's a phone-in. So get in touch with me. You can text me on 84844 and you can contact me on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. And of course, you can email us through our website. We'd love to hear from you. And you never know,

you might be talking to me on Woman's Hour tomorrow. I'm going to just read out a couple more of these kids party ones. Kids parties, just let them play. Ideally, with as little intervening from adults as possible. Just get them out to the park, woods or a big playing field. The less contrived intervening from adults as possible. Just get them out to the park, woods or a big playing field.

The less contrived adult-led stuff as possible. I find most kids look like they're hating their own party. So keep it small and take the pressure off. And that's Kate in the New Forest. Now, what do Arsenal's Beth Mead, Chelsea's Sam Kerr and captain of the Lionesses, Leah Williamson, all have in common? They're members of what's known as the ACL Club, having all injured their knee ligament

whilst on the pitch, not a club that sounds like you want to join. The ACL, which stands for anterior cru... Oh. Cruciate. Cruciate, thank you. The anterior cruciate ligament is one of the key ligaments in the knee joint.

It's common to tear it during sports that involve sudden changes in direction, like football. I just had to ask the doctor in the knee joint. It's common to tear it during sports that involve sudden changes in direction like football. I just had to ask the doctor in the room. Probably should have practiced reading that out before I came to it. Now, research shows that female footballers are up to six times more likely to suffer this injury compared to their male counterparts.

A new study is being launched by Leeds Beckett University, working with the likes of Nike, teams in the Women's Super League and the Professional Footballers Association to investigate this further. Former England defender and now women's footballer executive at the PFA Fern Whelan explained why this research is needed. I think because now we've got more of an eye on the women's game. We know that it happened before when I was playing, when it wasn't so professional, when there wasn't cameras at every single game and there wasn't thousands of fans in the stadium.

So it's not something new. But the fact that the game is now professional and we're asking players to be elite athletes and train up to six times a week, that is new. And that's something we want to delve into and see if that's having any kind of effect on players and the conditions that they're working in. Well, why is this risk factor so high?

Joining me is Andy Williams, knee surgeon to the Sporting Stars at Fortius. It's a clinic here in London. He's done ACL operations on the likes of Manchester City's Chloe Kelly and Manchester United's Aoife Mannion. And Emma Samways, player for third-tier team hashtag United in Essex, who tore her ACL in February of this year year emma i'm going to come to you first um ouch tell us about your injury how did it happen um i was playing against halifax in the semi-final of the women's national league cup um and i think well the pitch was quite it was

deemed nearly unplayable um very muddy pitch and in about the 70th minute my foot got stuck in mud and I've twisted outwards and just heard a pop straight away um continued trying to play for five minutes but then had to hob off in the end what was it like receiving that diagnosis um pretty terrible to be honest because I think I was trying to tell myself it wasn't that I've seen obviously injuries of like Beth Mead and Leah Williamson they go down sort of crying straight away getting stretched off the pitch but I actually walked off um was walking for the next 10 days but then when it didn't get better I got an MRI scan and then got told by email that I've got high grade ACL tear and I mean they're they're at the top of the game.

You play in a third tier team and you're also a police officer for your day job. So what's this injury meant in terms of your career? Well, as soon as I got told I got the ACL tear, I had to go on to restricted duties, meaning I couldn't go out on front line. And then obviously, since I've had surgery on the 12th of April and I haven't been able to go back to work yet, I'm just still recovering. And I think for the next nine to 12 months,

I'll be either off sick or having to be on restricted duty still. Goodness me. I'm going to bring Andy here. Andy, what happens exactly when you tear your ACL, when it's injured? So usually it is a result of an unplanned or something that goes wrong with rotation. So the femur, the thigh bone, will slip off the back of the shin bone. And as that happens, it tends to be restrained by the anterior cruciate ligament. It gets tighter and tighter and then pop. About 75% of people will be aware of that.

And it breaks and then snaps back into place and there's a huge spectrum of injuries some people stretch it off and other people can carry on even but it's a very very important injury to diagnose early and treat properly. Why are women disproportionately affected? Yes there's a lot of interest in it because of the high profile players have injuries particularly the last year or so and there are probably some factors which create increased risk, maybe related to menstrual cycle. Certainly for other injuries, that's the case. Also, the shape of the bones and how the limb lines up.

But I do wonder if effectively blaming women as somehow being frail may not be the whole story. And there are also, I think this is a manifestation of really sexual discrimination in that many of the women footballers I'd treated over the years have been less muscled less athletic than the men and the simple fact is that the interest and the money is behind the men's game boys are picked up very young they from that moment on they get the best training, best strength conditioning, best equipment, etc.

And so they're turned into athletes who can cope with the rigours of the game. Whereas the women are able to join late and they don't have all that preparation. They're now being expected to play at high level twice a week, maybe out of time zones, etc. They simply haven't been given the chance to develop the bodies that cope. And maybe in 10 or 15 years, if out of time zones, etc. They simply haven't been given the chance to develop the bodies that cope.

And maybe in 10 or 15 years, if we can improve equality, then you'll find much less instance of female ACL. And all those other factors, the angles of the bones, the menstrual cycle, etc., may actually be quite a small predisposing factor. Well, you mentioned that, because

there has been some new research in the press, and it's out today, actually. A study that followed a women's club for three years that suggests that players are more likely to get injured at certain points in their menstrual cycle. Pitlays were six times more likely to pick up a muscle injury in the days leading up to their period. Yeah so that seems significant unfortunately it was only on 26 players and so it's of interest but I wouldn't say yet we could accept that as absolute fact, but there probably is something in it. When it comes to the operation and recovery, do men and women differ here?

Not really. I mean, the essential is that the surgery is done well and you've got to choose your surgeon who does a lot of this sort of work. There's a choice about how best to do it and there's debate as to the best ways, but I think we're getting clearer on that and we should custom build the surgery for the sports concerned and following the surgery the critical thing is restoring muscle strength and control and so the rehabilitation is not only exhausting but is very very important and if the women start off with less good nerve muscle control then they probably need more. Well, you know, Emma's going through it right now. How is it?

I mean, it must be, not only are you in pain, the psychological impact of you having to take time off work and not be able to play football. Yeah, I mean, as soon as I found out, I did, straight away I was very upset and thought my life was going to be on hold for a year, essentially. But I think from having the surgery the initial two weeks of quite a lot of pain I saw my physio for the last first time last night

and I think just that mental side of saying like here's your program this is what stage you need to be at each month has set me goals now and I think mentally I can now start looking towards that and just trying to improve that each time. And how was the process of getting your operation did you go through the NHS was that possible? No well I mean it was possible but when I went to the GP they said would I like physio or a consultant appointment so that kind of worried me straight away and then they said it was 12 to 18 months um just wait for surgery so I think for me it wasn't really an option because it would have been 12 to 18th month wait and then another 12 months recovery so that's two and a half years potentially out of football and my job so you've paid for it from your own pocket um I set up a go fund me page

in the end because I saw that other footballers at my level did that. And I hoped with my club, Hashtag United, the social media team, I thought hopefully I can get support from around the world. And that's what I did. I managed to raise five and a half thousand pounds for my surgery. Andy, what do you think about that? It's not an ideal situation. It's shocking, I i think being blunt i mean the delay to surgery is important because between the original injury and the operation there is a risk of instability and do more damage to the joint and um you know it's an indictment of the system and you know first team male player wouldn't be expecting to wait and they'd be insured and covered by the club obviously it depends on the club's concerned. Women now are certainly getting better treatment but it's

goes back to my point about sex discrimination really. So what can we do to better support female footballers who join the ACL club? We've got to popularise the fact that this is a very big injury and even though we're very good at treating it these days it

has lifelong implications and that we need to look at the research to make sure we understand why they're getting the injuries. But I suspect it may well be because they're not being given a fair crack of the whip from the beginning. They never get the opportunities the boys or the men get. I want to wish you a speedy recovery, Emma.

Thank you very much. How are you? I'm okay. No, I'm better now. I think I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Do you want to ask Andy a quick question? We've got the top doctor in the land here who operates on this, you know. Yeah.

I mean, my one question, I think what I'm missing the most is about running. So I would like to know what stage do you think running can be a goal for me so usually around three months you can start running so around 12 weeks but you should only run if you've got a good single leg squat on both legs because when you run as you land you absorb impact through a good controlled muscle activity so if you're very wobbly then I would delay the running maybe to four months there you go that's something to work towards, then I would delay the running maybe to four months. There you go. That's something to work towards.

Yeah, wonderful. I love that we've been able to facilitate that. Also, Andy, you've got a very calming voice. That's very reassuring. Thank you both for joining me to talk about that. A real pleasure. Absolute honour. 84844, the number to text.

Lots of birthday party messages coming in. About 30 years ago, I heard my five-year-old son say to a friend calmly, we don't have birthday parties because mummy can't cope. He was quite right. Brilliant. With me now in the studio is one of the 100 most influential people of 2024, according to Time magazine. Asma Khan is one of the UK's most prominent female chefs, founder of the London restaurant Darjeeling Express. It's famous not just for its food, which is delicious, but also for the all-female kitchen, consisting of mostly South Asian immigrants over the age of 50 without any formal training. Asma was also the

judge for the prestigious Andre Simon Food and Drink Book Awards this week and has a documentary series about Indian food on the way. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Asma. Congratulations. I mean, I've always known you're one of the most influential people, but now the world knows. What an honour. How does it feel? I feel very humble, but I am also very excited and grateful because representation matters.

And on that stage where there were names of 100 most influential people in the world, as a pioneer, I know that for a lot of women looking at me there, it's about them. It's for them to see, for all these women who have a fire inside them, who want to do something, who want to change tracks. My success, I hope, inspires them. Not only did you start at 45, you came to cooking late as well. I rewatched your amazing Chef's Table, which if you haven't seen it, I suggest you do. It's on Netflix and you will see why Asma is who she is and your amazing story. But for people who don't know, you got married, you moved to the UK, I'm fast forwarding quite a lot. And then you walked past someone's house and you smelt the food, right? I smelt the last stages of paratha. You'll know that. It's that when the kind of ghee and the butter is burning and that crisp stage.

And I wept outside because I realized I felt so inadequate. I felt like a failure. I had not learned how to cook. And that's when I realized that this is my way home. This is my way to connect to my culture and who I am. Food is part of our DNA. At some point, we all need to recognize that. It is our way to comfort ourselves, but also it's a way about celebrating your culture.

And then this led on to the new opening of restaurants, Darjeeling Express. And it's very different to a lot of restaurants and kitchens around the world. Are you still the only women-led Indian kitchen in the world? Yes, at this level. You do find them, you know, in Suruchi, in Calcutta, you find them at kind of, you know, NGOs at very low levels around bazaars, working in charities. But as a mainstream restaurant in the heart of a city, we are the only all-female Indian restaurant in the world. You describe your team as the all-women team of housewives. Yes, yes.

Let's celebrate them. Tell me about them. They are incredible. They are women who have life experience. Some of them never went to school. They've had really difficult lives. But they all knew how to cook. And the irony of it all is that in every household in South Asia you will find a woman or a matriarch cooking the moment it comes about money and prestige a professional man is cooking and I have nothing against men cooking the world is big enough for all of us

but the fact that women are seen as not you know professional not fit to be hired is really, really wrong. Only about 20% of kitchens in the UK have female head chefs, despite the fact that 60% of the people in the food industry are women, while around 48% of students at cooking school are female. So they're leaving the industry a lot quicker. And the ones that stay tend to have lower ranking roles. Are things changing? Not at all.

They're not changing fast enough. And one of the problems we have is that women are not speaking up, powerful women. Michelin star female chefs, powerful women who are on television, who are in food. They're not speaking up when allegations of abuse happen and racism and misogyny. Their silence is deafening. And the signal it gives to all women is if you are having a hard time in the kitchen, if the fact that someone is touching you against your consent, you suck it up, you keep quiet, you don't speak up. So none of the women are speaking up. Who are our leaders in hospitality? This is a great failing

on an entire industry that we have not stood by our future leaders the young women coming into kitchens so there is an issue we need to talk about this yeah in march you gave a very powerful speech at an event in rome about this subject consent in the kitchen and you spoke about justice and an inequity and the fact that as you put it your body is sacred nobody nobody should touch it against your consent what has the reaction been from other female chefs? Well, I mean, the young females who had come from France were weeping. And one of them told me something that really shocked me. She said, when I went up and spoke to the chef and spoke about what was happening, he says, the owner of French cuisine, you don't talk about these things. If you want to stay as a chef, you keep quiet. And that is happening everywhere.

Women are being encouraged to keep silent because that is their ticket to making sure they stay in the industry. This is really wrong. You are speaking out about it. And knowing a little bit about you, nothing was going to stop you from saying whatever you want, which we absolutely fully applaud here on Women's Hour. But why is it, why is the onus always on women to speak out? Should men not be part of this as well? We will only break this terrible situation in hospitality if we have, if we actually collaborate with empathetic men. Empathetic men are very, very important in any kind of change. And as most of the men are the ones who are powerful, we need them to speak up, but they are not speaking up as well. And there is a kind of

collusion and silence. Yes, it is difficult right now in hospitality. We are all struggling with the cost of living, you know, struggling to find employment. But in all this time, in all the suffering that we're all having in this industry, we need to have that sense of justice. The injustice in the industry is very palpable. And the fact that it's only one particular group of mostly women, but also young boys, you know, this environment in kitchens is unacceptable. If this happened in any other place, you know, the head chef would be in jail for physical assault. But that's not happening. You're talking about justice. Harriet, our first guest, was also talking about justice for women.

And I'm going to ask you the same question. What keeps you going? What keeps you motivated? I think the understanding that I am here speaking to you. I know the audience of women's hour. I am grateful these opportunities in my accented voice with my immigrant name. I can speak about things that, you know, I hope that women will listen to this and men and think I can go back to my workplace and change things so that in in the hope that I can make a difference that I can ignite the fire in someone else that is what drives me every day that I can keep this flame going and somebody else will pick up the baton and and run. There's huge financial pressure on restaurants and that means that women in kitchens are probably likely to feel no option but to put up with uncomfortable environments in order to earn their stripes, to make a living, to know because this is the system. And the only way you can get to the top

is by navigating that. Yes. And I think that we can change cultures. And change has happened. If you look back and you think it was a woman's refusal to get off a seat in the bus that ended segregation, slavery, colonialism, all of these have always ended because brave people have stood up and spoken up. Silence is never an option. If you are in a position of strength and privilege, you must speak up. I want to talk about the cost of living crisis a little bit. Have you and your restaurant been feeling the pressure? Absolutely. We feel the pressure. We've increased the wages of our staff because we understand that this is very, very important.

That doesn't usually come hand in hand. No, no, no. You know, you've increased the wages of your staff. I mean, chef, master chef star Monica Galletti had to close her kitchen. Yes. And the thing is that, you know, it is very difficult. It is very challenging. But I'm trying to protect my team. And you do have people coming in and questioning, you know, that it was an expensive meal. I understand that. And I'm grateful for those who are still coming to our restaurant. I know these are one of the things that you always drop going out to eat. It's a difficult time for us. And you know, all of us

in hospitality are grateful for those who are still supporting us. And we need that support because otherwise many of us will have to close. And how do you keep your costs down? I take the hit in my profit because there's no way of keeping the cost down unless you squeeze your staff pay or that you actually buy inferior quality material. I won't do either.

So the fact that, you know, I know I'll not take the money to my grave. So it's not about the money. This is not a business for you. No, it's not about the money. If it was about money, I'd be doing other things. I'm here for a passion. I'm here because I'm a storyteller. I'm here because I'm flying the flag for South Asian men, women who have never been appreciated, never been paid. So this is a political movement. It's not a business. You are a storyteller. And also you, you've just been judging other people's stories, the Andre Simon Food and Drink Book Awards. How

many books did you have to read? I think 60. It's one of my simple pleasures, actually picking up a cookbook and just flicking through it on a Sunday. It's lovely with a cup of tea and some biscuits, heaven. So what were you looking for in these cookbooks? How do you judge them? I just went for the books that told me stories. I don't need to learn how to cook something. I want to learn about the culture, the stories, the rhythms, the seasons. What is it that is so sacred about a particular dish? It's the stories that I think are so important in cookbooks. Because, you know, now there are many places where you can get a recipe from TikTok to all kinds of things.

You can learn how to cook from many different media. You buy a cookbook because you will turn to it and at this quiet moment and appreciate it. So the books I was picking up and that I went on the shortlist,

but those that actually I would come back to, not necessarily to cook, but just to read. And very quickly, because I'm looking at the clock, we've been talking about kids' birthday parties. You grew up in a royal household in Calcutta. Can you give us a little glimpse into one of your childhood birthday parties?

Well, we used to get the entire, we used to get a lot of people coming in, you know, doing dances and music and dhol and drum. So that was my memory of just loud music and a lot of dancing. And the food? Food was just incredible. Always biryani. On my birthday, always biryani.

And that's a crowd pleaser. There you go. Simple. If you've got a kid's birthday party, there's a recommendation. A biryani. Asma, it's always a pleasure to speak to you. More power to you. And congratulations once again on being named

one of the most 100 influential people on the planet. That was Chef Asma Khan, the founder of the amazing restaurant Darjeeling Express. Thank you, Asma. Thank you. And a couple more messages on parties. Kids parties don't remind me. Worst experience ever.

We have eight kids. Wife working and I had to go to do a ward round so dropped number seven and five years outside Church Churchill with another father who was also late. Came back two hours later and realized I should have taken them to number eight, who was only age four years. No idea. Never forgave me. Sounds complicated. And another one here. About 30 years ago, I heard my five year old son say to a friend calmly. Oh, I read this one already, but I'm going to read it again because it's so good. We don't have birthday parties because mummy can't cope.

He was quite right. Join me tomorrow and get in touch if you'd like to be involved. We're doing a phone-in all about boys. Thank you. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, it's Robin Ince here with a new series of The Infinite Monkey's Guide To. We've gone back through all of the episodes of the Infinite Monkey Cage

and we've ransacked the archive to bring you the best bits from scientists and celebrities, with handy little guides to everything from failure to the future. We'll even throw in a bit of religion too. Yeah, hello. It's Brian Cox here. We've pulled together the best moments from the past 28 series of the show. 28

series. To bring you some of the funniest moments and the most surprising science with guests including Eric Idle, Dave Gorman and our resident theologian, Katie Brand. It's called The Infinite Monkey's Guide To. Listen first on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.