Woman's Hour - Layla AlAmmar, Anti-Obesity Drugs, Maximalism

Episode Date: March 4, 2021

Silence Is a Sense is a new novel by Layla AlAmmar: a Kuwaiti now based in Lancashire. Her novel is about a young woman from Syria who's living in a block of flats in a small English city. It's about the people she watches from her window, and how she's settling in after leaving a war zone.Two out of every three adults in the UK are either overweight or obese. Usually the message is eat less and move more, but is there something else going on? Rachel Batterham, Professor of Obesity, Diabetes and Endocrinology at UCL discusses the critical role of gut hormones in controlling appetite and the drugs that can help keep them in balance. And Jan from Kent talks about what she's learned about the causes of her own problems with weight and why she thinks anti-obesity drugs could change the lives of millions.We look at the growing trend for ‘more is more’ in home decorating. Maximalism can mean having a riot of different patterns and colours and textures, and also making more space for your treasured objects to go on display. Emma talks to Abigail Ahern, interior designer and author of Everything – A Maximalist Style Guide and Michelle Ogundehin, head judge on BBC2’s Interior Design Masters and author of Happy Inside: How to Harness the Power of Home for Health and Happiness.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Today, the World Obesity Federation has published a landmark report showing that countries with high levels of overweight people, including the UK, have the highest death rates from COVID-19 and urging that those people should be prioritised for vaccination. But at the same time, there's a new generation

of supposedly game-changing anti-obesity drugs that look highly promising. However, the idea of these drugs being made available on the NHS makes some people balk because of the deep-seated belief that if you're fat, it's your fault. 35 million adults and a third of 11-year-olds are overweight or obese in this country. Take that in. We're going to be talking to someone who has taken one of these drugs and had amazing results.

But what is your experience and view? Would you ever consider taking a drug to help you lose weight? Should we celebrate these sorts of drugs as a big step forward? Would you support them being provided on the NHS? Or perhaps you have a different take? Let us know. We always appreciate your candour and experiences on 84844. That's how you can text us.

Texts are charged at your standard message rate. Social media, we're at bbcwomans. Or email us through our website. Also on today's programme, we promised you yesterday when we were looking ahead to this, a review of the Chancellor's budget with a laser light focused on women, that's all to come, and maximalism, the trend in interior design you might unwittingly already be a part of, but when is a lot too much? We have experts on hand to keep us on the

right side of kit, that's all to come. But first, an astonishing story which is being described as a state pension scandal, and it only affects women, around 200,000 of them, that could be due payouts averaging £13,500 to top up the underpayment of their state pension for up to two decades. The Office for Budget Responsibility estimates that the full cost of this could be £3 billion These underpayments are due to married women Born before the 6th of April in 1953 The government is in the process of identifying and contacting these married women As well as those who have been widowed and divorced

We did ask a member of the government to join us today But we had no luck We do have a statement that I'll go to in just a moment But Baroness Ros Altton's on the line, a pensions expert who served as pensions minister from 2015 to 2016. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. This is an astonishing story. What is your take there has been a systemic failure within the DWP. That's the Department for Work and Pensions. The Department for Work and Pensions, which is responsible for the state pension. updating its computers in 2008 to automatically pay women up to 60% of their husband's pension

when he reached pension age, age 65 at the time, this didn't seem to have happened. In addition to that, there are lots of women from before 2008 who should have been living on far more because they should have received up to 60% of their husband or late husband's pension even, or divorced husband's pension in some cases. But they didn't know they had to claim it and they didn't claim it and they've missed out. And then there are women who are over 80 who also should be getting at least £80.45 a week, but are living on less and have not been automatically given that money. So there's a lot of ways in which women, and it is unfortunately so often women, have lost out in the state pension and for years. But why? You were pensions minister for a year, admittedly not that long in the role.

Why didn't you sort it out? Nobody knew about it. This came to light last year, it seems. It was highlighted when a few cases were discovered of women who were living on less than they should have done. And some of those were from the period when automatically they should have got the up rating so clearly something went wrong with the computer system. Sorry you're saying you didn't know at all about this? No nobody knew you know it was the media that exposed some of these cases and indeed when some of the women phoned the department for work and pensions and said look I, I think I'm living on less than I should, I should be entitled to more. Initially, they were told, no, no, no, you're getting the right amount. It was only on the second, third

or fourth phone call that the people at the department realised, yes, there was a problem. And it's taken months and months for them to recognise the scale of the issue. If I may, it wasn't just the media, though, was it? It was someone who also held that post, Steve Webb, a former Liberal Democrat. Yes, but he's a former Liberal Democrat MP. He held that post.

And if he was able to harness this and find out about it and put a freedom of information request in, why on earth couldn't people who are in the government now, never mind people like yourself who've held that post before, how could you not find out about this? We unfortunately, the department basically said it was only a few women. It was a few exceptional cases. And it was only when we continued pressing on this that the officials seemed to have looked into it properly. To be fair, you know, the department had an awful lot going on last year during the pandemic. But, you know, that's no excuse. And I think that the women who are entitled to more than they should have been living on far too little. And they're entitled to compensation back to 2008, definitely, plus interest. And there may be consolatory payments. You know, the government has set aside now three billion pounds to try and sort this out.

And not a small amount, although we're getting used to hearing large amounts in these strange times we're living in, especially in light of the budget, which we'll come to in a minute. But it's a double scandal. The government didn't even know it was doing wrong by women, successive governments. And on top of that, this has happened to the women. And when you look back over the years, unfortunately, it seems to be time after time, when there are problems with the state pension unfortunately, it seems to be time after time, when there are problems with the state pension system, it tends to impact women. Women are the poor relations in the state pension system, and certainly in the private pension system. And part of it is the ludicrous complexity of the old state pension system. Even the new state pension system is,

in my view, very, very complicated. But why on earth should any woman listening to this, now they've been told the Department for Work and Pensions say that they will contact anyone impacted, why on earth should they trust a department who didn't even know that they were doing wrong by women to actually be able to contact them when it can't even update its own computer systems in 2008 to adequately look after women it was meant to be looking after?

It's a good question. And the department is now saying that it will take a number of years to uncover all the people who should could claim the money from your husband's pension rights. And yet the women weren't adequately, in my view, told about it. And if they discover it now, they can only get 12 months backdating of the missing money. there's a an appeal to the parliamentary ombudsman that you know this wasn't adequately administered by the department for work and pensions it is in you know it's not excusable i'm not sitting here saying this is okay it is not okay and the initial denial i kind of understand it because it is such a big mistake. You think, well, how on earth could it have happened? It has happened.

It's taken too long to look at it. But now the government is doing so and it's put aside the money necessary and I want them to get on with it as quickly as possible. Yes, I'm saying it might take six years. There's a dedicated team of 155 civil servants that's been reported looking at this. Should somebody say sorry to these women? And if so, who should it be? Well, I would hope that, you know, anyone involved, including myself, I am mortified that this has happened. I wish I had known. I would have moved on it very, very quickly. You know, I think it has taken rather a long time to

take it seriously. But I do know that, you know, there have been a lot of pressures going on. I think there is a proper apology needed to women about the problems of their pensions generally, but to the women here who, you know, it shouldn't have been rocket science to realise that if women are living on less than the minimum £80.45 a week that would have been due if they had been previously married or if they were over 80, that somebody should perhaps investigate why that is. Should the Prime Minister apologise? I think successive governments need to apologise for this.

This goes back... Okay, so then on that, just practical side of this, Ros, you've helped a lot of people as well in your time and you want to see them be done right by now. It doesn't sound like you would necessarily wait for the Department for Work and Pensions to get in touch with you, considering what has gone on already with this. If you do think you are affected, should you... I would say give them a call, definitely. You know, if you know that you're living on less than... If you've got less than £80.45 a week and you've been married, if you're divorced, it's a bit tricky because it's the number of years

you were with your husband that count. But, you know, if you have reason to believe that you are living on less than you should, and, you know, there are a lot of very poor pensioners out there, especially elderly women. I'm sure we will hear from some of them and messages already coming in along. Can I just ask a very quick one from Vanda who says, my mother died last year, aged 85. Can her family claim back the pension money she never received? Yes, the government is also saying that it will pay from those who were post-2008. Okay, so that's a clear answer there. I do have to move on. I'm terribly sorry.

But thank you for that answer and that clarity. Baroness Ros Altman, pensions expert, former pensions minister from 2015 to 2016. We did invite a minister on from the Department for Work and Pensions. We had no luck, but they gave us this statement. The action we're taking will correct the historical underpayments that have been made by successive governments. They say anyone affected will be contacted by the Department for Work and Pensions to make sure they receive all that they are owed.

But advice there to get in touch. If we get on to the budget then, keeping with fiscal matters, yesterday Marianne Stevenson, Chief Executive of the Women's Budget Group, Jesse Hewitson, the Deputy Money Editor for The Times and Sunday Times, both joined me to look ahead to the budget. And they promised to come back once we had it and we knew the detail with how it affected women. Mary-Anne, if I come to you, first of all, you had a bit of a shopping list. Good or bad, what's the verdict for you with the lens that you're looking at this marianne sorry um yeah i think it was a real missed opportunity actually to deal with some of the inequalities that have been made worse by covid you know there was nothing

in the budget on social care i know the chancellor has said said today that he's committed to try and build some sort of cross-party consensus on social care but we've had years of government ministers promising some sort of action on social care and nothing has happened. Even prior to the pandemic there were millions of people who weren't receiving the care they needed, and that has only got worse. There was nothing in the budget on childcare, which we know is in crisis. 58% of local authorities say that childcare providers are likely to close in their area. Universal credit was only extended for six months, and is the uplift in universal credit, and that's due to come to an end around the same time as the furlough scheme ends, just at the point when people will need it most although i suppose the government would argue it

was extended the furlough scheme has been extended the furlough scheme has been extended and and that will benefit those people but we are looking at millions of women on furlough particularly in those um frontline jobs that have been closed down as a result of COVID, hospitality, retail, health and beauty sector. Many of those women are likely to lose their jobs as the furlough scheme ends. And that will be the point when they're needing to claim universal credit, which will then go back for by £20 a week. But also on violence against women, the Chancellor promised an additional £19 million. Women's Aid have estimated it would take £393 million to set up a sustainable network of support for all those women who need it. So you can see that what's being offered doesn't really touch

a side. That's how you would put it. Of course, the government would say, these are times where decisions have to be made and there is extra money and there's been other pots of money going in there. If I could put to you, Jessie, when you were listening to this yesterday, what sprung out from your list that we talked about in the morning?

Yeah, I mean, I was disappointed as well. The fact that there was actually no acknowledgement of the disproportionate impact COVID has had on women's finances, I just felt really let down by that. And I felt that, you know, had 80% of men lost their jobs in the first wave of coronavirus, which is what PWC has calculated has happened to women, there would be a lot of discussion about it in the budget and the root causes would be analysed. But the fact that there was only one mention of childcare in the 102-page budget report, and that wasn't even in relation to women, was very disappointing. So that wasn't where you thought it would come out. Was there anything else that you were

potentially buoyed by or that you thought, because course generally the budget has been described uh jesse as as actually deferring if you like how we're going to pay for this for for some time and in some quarters has been praised for still just focusing on getting through this time yeah i mean i i don't feel critical about the budget um i think i think he managed, you know, sort of walking a tightrope. But I did feel as a woman that it was just missed opportunities. And the fact that it's sort of not even being articulated that half the population are having, well, many of those half the population are having a tougher time financially felt wrong. That would be your message to the Chancellor. Final word from you, Mary-Anne.

What would you like to say to Rishi Sunak if he or his team are listening? Well, one of the things that wasn't in the speech but was in the budget documents is plans for further spending cuts. So there's going to be departmental spending cuts of £14 billion in 2021-22 and then £17 billion for the next few years thereafter. Those cuts will lead to cuts

in public services and we know what happened the last time spending on public services were cut. It affected women much more than men and the poorest and black minority ethnic women and disabled women most of all. So I think you you know, Jessie's right, it was a missed opportunity to recognise that women have been hit harder. And actually, the Chancellor made some decisions that will continue to hit women harder still. We'll talk again, I am sure, and perhaps we'll even be able to welcome the Chancellor to the programme to put some of those issues to him. Marianne Stevenson, Chief Executive of the Women's Budget Group, Jessie Hewitson, Deputy Money Editor for The Times and Sunday Times.

Thank you for coming back and talking to us about what was in that red box. Of course, your views welcome, please, on 84844. You are getting in touch about pensions, but also about our discussion we're going to have shortly around a new anti-obesity drug. We'll come to that in just a moment. But 10 years of war in Syria has devastated the country, claiming hundreds of thousands of lives and uprooting millions more. From the perspective of the UK, from 2014 onwards, the UK began resettling Syrians under the Vulnerable Persons Resettlement Scheme with the aim of resettling 20,000 by 2020.

That number has nearly been reached. The figures were actually released last Thursday, telling us 19,776 people from Syria have been resettled here in the UK. But what is life like for the people behind those numbers? A new novel tries to imagine. It's called Silence is a Sense by Leila Alamar, a Kuwaiti now based in Lancashire. Her book tells a story of a young woman from Syria who's living in a block of flats in a small English city. It's about the people she watches from her window and how she's trying to settle in after leaving a war zone. Leila, good morning.

Good morning. Why did you want to write this story? I live in the region, I grew up in the region and when the Arab Spring began in late 2010, early 2011, we were all swept up in the spirit of it. And we were all closely following the events in Egypt, Syria, Algeria, Tunisia, just right across the region. And it's something that I continued to follow for many years. And then, of course, when the situation in Syria deteriorated into civil war, and then we had the ensuing refugee crisis. These were all issues that I had been following for the better part of a decade. And so that's how it came out in the novel. Silence is a Sense. Tell us about the title and a bit about the character and

where their mind is at. Well, Silence is a Sense, the title comes from a poem by the renowned Egyptian protest poet Ahmed Fouad Negim and he wrote a lot of poetry primarily in the late 60s, 70s as part of Egypt's revolution at that time. And so the title is drawn to kind of show the interconnectedness of Arab revolutions throughout history and across the region and this kind of joint ethos. And this is the background that the character comes from. She participated in the early uprisings in Syria with her friends, with her love interest back home, and they were all kind of swept up in this revolutionary fever. And then when she arrives in England, she is traumatized by the experience and as well as her journey across Europe, and she's traumatized by the experience and as well as her journey across Europe. And she's traumatized into silence.

So she essentially spends the novel mute and has to find other ways to communicate and connect with her neighbors. And then also she writes for an online magazine. So that's another way for her to kind of speak. You know, just the idea that it has been 10 years now is something to think about and reflect on. But building on what you've just talked about, tens of thousands of Syrians have been traumatized by the civil war, which did start a decade ago. You've talked a bit there now about your character being an example of that. But a charity called Syria Relief said this week that three quarters of Syrians who left their country are suffering PTSD.

Yeah, I mean, the UNHCR says that between six and seven million Syrians have had to leave the country. And a further six million have been displaced within the country. And so of course, they're suffering unimaginable horrors and immeasurable violence. And this will play out in many different ways. And so obviously, with the protagonist of Silence of the Scents being a young woman, there's a compounded trauma when it comes to female experiences of war and of being a refugee. And that's something that she tries to deal with and to process. Did you talk to people in this situation for the book who are trying to make a new life? Yeah, I did quite a bit of research,

both in terms of reading and, you know, interviews, documentaries, speaking with refugees who have been resettled or, you know, from outside of the UK as well. So, yeah. And how do the ones that you either read about or spoke to find settling in to the UK? Because, of course, she in your book is looking around her at this life around her that she wants to be a part of

but can't quite and, you know the sort of situation she's come to is so difficult to come from is so difficult yeah and i think for her it's primarily about finding safety and and that's what she she believes that she will find here and so she does spend quite a bit of the time isolated, and she isolates herself quite deliberately in order to feel safer. And she kind of constructs these imaginary boundaries around herself, even though she's in the city and she's in this country where she could go anywhere. But she imposes these restrictions because it makes her feel safer. So, and then, you know, unwittingly or, you know, sometimes against her will,

she begins to form connections with the community around her. And she begins to realise that she needs other people and that she needs these companions and these connections. And does she find it welcoming, the community that she's in? You know, it's not uniformly. So the community, you know, I try to show kind of a balanced viewpoint where you have members of the neighbourhood who are apathetic and they don't really care who she is or where she's from.

You have other people like like adam who she befriends during the narrative who is actively engaged in in her and her story and he wants to help and then you have people who are less welcoming who are more um hostile so it kind of runs the spectrum well thank you for talking to us as we do you know reflect on 10 years on and and how people may be doing silence is a Sense is the name of the book and Leila Alamar is the author there giving us an insight. a landmark report showing that countries with high levels of overweight people, which of course includes the UK, have the highest death rates from COVID-19 and that those people should be prioritised for vaccination. At the same time, there's a new generation of anti-obesity drugs that look highly promising. However, the idea of these drugs being available on the NHS makes some people balk because of deep-seated beliefs that if you're fat, it's your fault.

35 million adults and a third of 11-year-olds are overweight or obese in this country. Just take that in, the scale of that. Today, we also learned GPs are going to start prescribing diets. Is that really the answer or what is? Isn't it time we think about how we can perhaps collectively help people shift the way, live longer, healthier and happier lives, rather than playing the blame game. I'll come to some of your responses on this, which are spirited, to say the least, in just a moment.

Rachel Batterham is a professor of obesity, diabetes and endocrinology at UCL and is one of the authors of the recent study into this drug, which we can talk about in a moment, that can help some people lose 20% of their body weight. And then I'll be joined by Jan who lives in Kent who took part in Rachel's trial and has struggled with her weight since she was a child. Rachel if I could start with you first of all good morning. Good morning. Tell us about this this new drug and and how it works. Thank you for having me on on World Obesity Day, very important day. I just want to

start by saying that obesity really does in fact impact on people's health. So when we're treating obesity, it's about improving health. This drug is based on a naturally occurring hormone that comes from the gut, which in thin people acts on the brain and decreases appetite and helps regulate food intake. When a person develops obesity, they have low levels of this hormone. So this is a natural hormone that's then being topped up. And it really helps to reduce that reduce appetite and cause a reduction in body weight. And what's it what's the new one called? So the hormone is called GLP-1 and the drug is called semaglutide. And in terms of how you see this being perhaps prescribed or given to people, what would you say is the best way to do this? Would you agree with it going on the NHS?

So obesity increases the risk of type 2 diabetes, heart disease, cancer, and a myriad of other diseases. And we need to improve people's health. So for people who have obesity, the disease, which is affecting their health, then we should be offering them treatments that we know will improve their health and allow them to live longer. And actually, this will save the NHS money going forward because we will be decreasing these other diseases that people with obesity are likely to develop. So that would be a yes.

You would put some, I mean, a very strong yes. And I just wanted to read you a couple of messages, for instance, on this. You know, one here saying obesity is largely down to us. What we eat, you know, specifically refined carbs. It has little to do with dietary, fat or thankfully exercise. This is the common denominator with COVID as well as type 2 diabetes. It is up to us to reduce our intake. Another message, just to put those two together for you to reply to,

if you wouldn't mind, Rachel, people should take responsibility for their weight. Why rely on the NHS for a pill? Eat nutritious, healthy food. It's like putting on a plaster rather than tackling the root cause. So obesity is incredibly complicated. There are genetic causes, biological and social. Health inequalities really play into this. 20% of UK families are living in poverty, and their choice is either they eat something unhealthy or they don't eat anything at all. Healthy calories are three times more expensive than unhealthy calories. We need both. We need shared responsibility between individuals

and we need policies and we need to shape our environment so that actually it's easier for people to eat healthily. A message here. Yes, I would take a drug to help weight loss. I've gained over five stone since being diagnosed with an underactive thyroid. I've tried very hard to lose the weight to no avail. I've suffered physically, my knees, hips, back. My mental health is suffering.

I will try anything. I'm desperate, says Kay in Durham. Jan, you did take part in this trial and I know that you you struggled yourself just until a couple of years ago you were over 20 stone but you eat healthily you exercise daily walking your dog tell us a bit about how you got to that weight and what's happened since taking the drug, good morning, Emma. Good morning. Yeah, it's a problem I've had all my life, being very young. And I went on this trial. And it was just completely life changing. Because for the first time in my life, I could actually get signals from my body that I was full

that I didn't need to eat. And it's something that I've never had in 61 years of my life. I've never had that, which a lot of people have naturally. And it's because of my body makeup. And basically, this substitute gut hormone did the job. So once I'd eaten, it told my brain, you've eaten, you're full. And then I wouldn't want to eat again. And I could look at food and just look at it as that looks nice. But I wasn't driven to think, oh, I must eat it. And so my whole day wasn't sort of fighting this sort of urge that my body has to constantly graze and eat. So I've never actually been someone who sat down and eaten huge portions or, you know,

I've never in my life eaten a whole packet of biscuits. Some people say, oh, I sit on the sofa, I eat the biscuits, the whole pack. I haven't. I've had one or two. But then I'll go back an hour or so later, maybe have another one or whatever. And I know from things I found out that I do have a genetic makeup, which makes me eat and want to eat. And I naturally don't have a lot of GLP-1, which is what this gave me. And it completely changed my way around food and completely changed my life for a year that I was on the trial. You lost just over five stone while on that trial. In terms of this blame game that can go on, where people say, just eat less, just manage it yourself. It shouldn't be on the NHS,

this kind of drug, you know, who perhaps don't have this understanding of what you're talking about with regards to this hormone and other you know factors that that are at play that rachel has been talking towards what would you say to them it's very difficult a lot of people just don't know it's such a complex subject as well and people that you know the scientists the experts are finding out more and more about it and i'm i actually went through a program about five years ago when my genetic makeup was screened by Giles Yeo, who's an expert at Cambridge University. And it was found that I have every gene that has been identified to date, which makes you eat, which makes you constantly hungry. So that was, it was really good to me because people just turn around and say, use willpower.

You just eat healthy, exercise, you'll lose weight. That's not the case. It's not that easy. And a lot of people who say that have the right body makeup so that they can do that. Whereas myself with the genes genes which makes me want to constantly crave and you found out that it's a bit different what's going on with you rachel can i bring you back in we've got many messages coming in um for instance one saying here no one objects

to medication to support giving up smoking giving up alcohol obesity is much more complicated than overeating a tangle of hormones resulting from stress body type metabolism general health that's a message there uh you know building on what jan's just been saying but there is a message here asking around our lifestyle this is from deborah who says it's not about blaming people but looking at modern lifestyles it's too easy to be sedentary turning to pills isn't a good solution what What do you say to that, Rachel? So treatments have to depend on where somebody is in their weight cycle. So if somebody weighs 120 kilograms, then lifestyle is not going to actually help. Lifestyle can help people who are at the lower end and to prevent obesity. But for the people already with severe obesity, with type 2 diabetes,

heart problems, this is where this drug will come in and actually help them to lose weight, because the only other option is bariatric surgery. So this will help reduce the number of people who would potentially need to have bariatric surgery. This study was funded by the Dutch pharmaceutical company Nova Nordisk, which holds an estimated 80% share in the obesity drug market. Cynics may say a lot of money to be made by discrediting perhaps the eat less, move more advice and promoting drugs instead. What would you say to that? So there are many drugs like this drug based on gut hormones that are going to come to market in the next two to three, four years. And as a physician, my main aim is to improve health. And I prescribe drugs

for other conditions. And I don't really think about the pharmaceutical company. The aim is health here. And how you say coming to market two to three to four years, do you think the NHS will go for it? I know where your view is on if they should four years do you think the NHS will go for it I know where your view is on if they should but do you think this is this is the direction of travel I think it should be for the right person the right patient so this is not for somebody who's just put on a little bit of weight who wants to lose weight for their holiday this is for people whose health and quality of life is really impacted by their body weight and would you have to be on it for the that's yes would you have to be on it for the rest of your life or how long would you have to be on it?

So that's one of the biggest questions is how we can get people to reduce weight, but then keep it off. Because the drivers that cause the weight gain need to be addressed to try and actually help people keep the weight off. So is that any other disease like high blood pressure, it's a tablet for life. But I'm hopeful that we'll be able to move forward and sort of cause the natural levels of the hormone to increase with weight loss. We will see what happens. And of course, as we began this conversation, this is particularly pertinent when we learn around the impact of weight with regards to COVID and what's been going on at the moment. So a very pertinent conversation to be having.

Rachel Bashram, thank you for your time. Jan, thank you to you for talking to us about your personal experience. More messages coming in on 84844. I'll return to those in just a moment. But we've been talking about our bodies. Let's talk about where we live, where we situate ourselves, because interior design, a.k., aka what you have in your home that perhaps you've been looking at a bit more than you do usually in the last 12 months. What is your style? If you've been waiting for minimalism to disappear and maximalism to return, that whole idea of more is more, then you could be in luck because trends for patterns and bold clashing colours, it's on the rise wherever you are.

Perhaps, you know, this is something you're interested in or perhaps it's always been the way in your house and now it's just come back around. In the news this week, we've even seen such a move attempted in 10 Downing Street. If those reports about the Prime Minister and his fiancée are true, they wish to set up a charity to foot the bill for an interiors overhaul behind the shiny black door at number 10

and a designer who favours bold patterns is the mooted preference. But when is maximalism too much? To help us navigate this, Abigail Ahern, interior designer and author of Everything, A Maximalist Style Guide, and Michelle Ogundehin, head judge on BBC Two's brilliant Interior Design Masters, which I was absolutely binging on last night and author of Happy Inside, How to Harness the Power of Home for Health and Happiness is also on the line.

Abigail, I thought I'd start with you and say, could you make the case for maximalist? What are we talking about when we say that? Gosh, I can so easily make the case for maximalist because maximalism brings joy to the home. I mean, it lifts the spirits because you're putting in your pad things that have an emotional, that you have an emotional response to and that you love. So you're drawing

on lots of experiences from your holidays, colour palettes, you know, it just literally is, it's just literally, it brings joy. And I think now we need our homes to do that for us. Yeah, I have to say, Michelle, this is where I find myself. If our homes to do that for us yeah I have to say Michelle this is where I find myself if I was to put myself on a scale in my own home I was looking around and I love patterns I never really wear anything plain but in your series in your show on the BBC one of the people who went out that week with the style being maximalism in a wedding venue really did go overboard you know so when do you know if too much is too much good morning yes well i mean this is the thing i think it's a common misunderstanding that when we

think of maximalism we say more is more and we say clashing and actually and i know abigail will concur with this is a star with great nuance it's about layers it usually takes one fantastic full fat fulsome kind of patterned you know explosion of something but then everything else flows out in a very measured way from that and I think often we find that word eclectic used in design which I have to say is one that like sets off all my kind of claxons because that just means everything anything everything and anything sort of shoved together but But maximalism is very fine tuned, often around kind of beautiful jewel colors as well. So we're thinking like rubies and topazes. And these are really deep, saturated, gorgeous colors that are all from the same palette.

So they fit very seamlessly together. And I think that's the mistake that we kind of saw. I mean, it was kind of amazing because you were just like, oh, my goodness. But could you sleep in there? Could you live in that day to day? No, I don't think you could. But I think what that particular designer and if you haven't seen it, do check it out. It's available on iPlayer. Well, that particular designer did, which I think a lot of people could sympathise with, is that he just started and kept going and adding. And that's what you can do in your own

home because, of course, you know, most people don't employ an interior designer. And Abigail, to bring you back in, you know, what if you're adding and then you just keep going and it starts to look absolutely awful? I mean, I just want to say that I think it's had a real bad rap in the past, maximalism, because it looks like, it can look like you've kind of slugged back seven cups of coffee while nursing a hangover, right? It's just chaotic. It's messy. There's too many colors going on. And I'm all about championing a new kind of maximalism where you're in a space and it feels restorative. It feels serene. It feels calming. And you do that by literally reducing the number of colors in a space and repeating materiality and texture.

So it feels very layered and very nuanced, very beautiful, but it doesn't feel chaotic. Let's just go back to another question that came in and I promised I would put to you, Michelle. What if you are a maximalist and you've understood the brief of what you're saying and what Abigail's saying, but you live with a minimalist? How can this, Abigail's also got a view I know, but how can you, how can you win, Michelle? Oh, gosh, it's inevitable this question comes. I mean, one, of course, we must say there's nothing like winning or losing. We're in win-win situations here. I mean, my goodness.

I mean, I'd be surprised if these two got together in the first place. But if they did, I mean, creating a home with someone is about the point where your tastes and what you love meets. I mean, there is always a way. I mean, Abigail kind of said it. It's like it is not a chaotic style, but it could be that you bring it in with a kind of beautiful materials you have like velvets and embroideries, but that doesn't mean they all have to be in kind of Crayola kind of fluorescent colours. I mean, you know, Abigail's aesthetic is very kind of muted in terms of colours. It's very sophisticated. It's quite kind of dark. My kind of colours are more what I call these sort of dirty colours. They've always got a little bit of kind of grey mixed in

them, but I love stuff. I love things because those things tell a story of your life. So if we are maximalists in our fictional home, if their things are telling the story of their life and that is loved by their minimalist partner, it's simply about containing them. So, I mean, my top trick always with kind of stuff is like the display shelf, the sort of floating shelf you can put between um you know say cupboards or in an alcove and then you put all your beautiful things there and it just means that's your celebration of your things but it's not kind of everywhere so it's not about chaos it's not about mess it's not about clashing it's about something much more sophisticated than that but it is fun and it's confident and it's brave and it's bold. And it's kind of the

perfect response to a year in which we've been assailed by an invisible predator. You know, it's like it's a way of taking back a little bit of control and going, this is my corner of the world. And my God, I'm going to make it look fabulous. Yes. But Abigail, the minimalist to that shelf that has just been described would perhaps put their arm along it with a bag beneath and just put all the things in. Abigail, final word to you on this. Perhaps, how do you get to a happy place if you've got different styles within the home?

I mean, I'm the worst person to ask because I don't see how you can be in a happy space if everything is shoved behind a drawer because there's no intrigue and there's no magic. So I couldn't be living with that person. I'm really sorry. I'd love to say you can work it out, but I personally couldn't work it out.

They would have to literally go. It's a deal breaker. Abigail Ahern, maximalist in your love there of maximalism. Thank you very much for explaining it to us. First of all, we've got some messages coming in on this. It's a shame it's radio. The only time I say that because it's such a visual discussion.

Michelle Agundahin, thank you to you as well. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Matthew Side. And just before you go, I wanted to tell you about my new podcast. It's called Sideways. Each week, I'll be telling you stories that I hope will make you see the world differently. We've got a story about a rebellious pilot who changed the way we fight wars.

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