Woman's Hour - Learning to Skateboard in a Warzone, Narcissistic Abuse, Huntington's Disease

Episode Date: February 3, 2020

The UK left the European Union on Friday night – so what can women expect from British politics. There have been weeks of speculation about a February reshuffle – we discuss the women who will win and lose. And what of the women among the voters who the Prime Minister has often said “lent” him their votes? Jane talks to Helen Lewis, staff writer for the Atlantic and to Anne McElvoy, senior editor at The Economist about how women’s interests will figure in post-Brexit politics. Last Wednesday, in our series about breaking free from damaging relationship patterns, we heard a moving account from “Sadie” who described her ex-partner as a narcissist. Today we explore further the subject of narcissistic abuse. Life for girls in Afghanistan can be dangerous – and with no set education system, they can often find themselves selling tea in the street or married early. But a centre in Kabul is teaching children from poor areas to read, write and… skateboard. It’s the subject of a BAFTA winning film Learning to Skateboard in a Warzone (If You're a Girl) by Carol Dysinger, who joins us to discuss the project.BBC stories has been following Danielle Thomas on her journey to find out if she has inherited the gene for Huntington’s disease. Her mum is in the late stages of the disease and there’s a 50:50 chance that she could have inherited it. Jane talks to her about her decision to discover if she’s a carrier and the impact it’s had on her life.Presenter: Jane Garvey Interviewed guest: Helen Lewis Interviewed guest: Anne McElvoy Interviewed guest: Katherine Baldwin Interviewed guest: Carol Dysinger Interviewed guest: Danielle Thomas Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. It is. A very good morning to you. Welcome to our week. Today, my guests include the BAFTA award-winning filmmaker Carol Dysinger. She won at that ceremony last night. And we'll talk about genetic testing. What would you do if your parent had an incurable disease? That's a little bit later in the programme this morning.

Now, I hesitate to say this, but I think it's OK for me to say that you are warmly welcome to the first post-Brexit edition of Woman's Hour. That's if you don't include the weekend Woman's Hour, of course, two minutes past four, Saturday afternoon. But also you could say, but Jane, Brexit hasn't really happened. The real work is just about to start. What is going to happen over the next weeks and months? And there's talk too about a reshuffle, a cabinet reshuffle, and the women, it is thought, could lose out big time. So let's talk to our regular guests, Helen Lewis,

staff writer for The Atlantic, and Anne McElvoy, senior editor at The Economist, about how women's interests and women's lives are going to figure in this post-Brexit British universe. First of all, Anne, you had the lucky ticket. You were on that train to Sunderland, or as it was described on Twitter, North England. North England. What was that all about? The cabinet was going to North England, as I think Sajid Javid's Twitter account said. But

really, the reason was it was Brexit day and they were having their cabinet meeting up in Sunderland. It was Friday. Symbolically, it was Friday. I'd been making a documentary for this very network about the election and a dive into what happened. And I ended up on the same train as the cabinet to the somewhat surprise of their protection officers.

But it was a good chance to kind of see the make-up of Cabinet as it is now and perhaps to speculate on how many of those ambitious souls and their smart body-corn dresses are still going to be there after. Speculate away then. Tell us what you think. Well, I think one of the problems for Boris Johnson is he's very determined to push people he thinks can show his energy about these trade negotiations and this new world after Brexit. And a lot of the people he's come to rely on are, frankly, male.

And someone said to me that the issue is he wants to chop people he doesn't think are particularly effective or he doesn't think their views come over very strongly to the public. But he doesn't yet have the pipeline of women who are at that mid-level that you can promote upwards. So I think we'll see lots of very junior women starting their careers quite happily under Boris Johnson. But the women for the chop, we are talking seriously about. Well, I suppose I'm hedging around it a bit. I mean, there's certainly talk that Andrea Leadsom won't be there anymore. She's been a very prominent Brexiteer.

But there is talk that she could lose her job. She is currently the business secretary. Yeah, she's doing business. Well, basically she was basically doing business and then she sort of moved over and done an awful lot of the kind of heavy lifting behind the scenes on the campaign and there were a lot of people on her side of the argument

who say this is a bit unfair. The person who's doing sort of, has been doing an awful lot around business and raising awareness of post-Brexit Britain in the business world is Liz Truss. More surprisingly some people think she may also be for the job, though you could never tell with Liz Truss because she's always so

very cheerful. Well she's been the invisible woman, I suppose she might be cheerful, but we didn't hear from her during the election campaign at all. Well we didn't hear from a lot of people because they decided that the campaign was going to be about Boris Johnson, so I think that would be a bit of a, if I could say an unfair measure. Her politics are quite similar to Boris Johnson's but for reasons that that Helen might be able to cast some light, but for reasons I don't quite understand, she is also said to have her head on the chopping block.

I think it's a shame in both cases, because Liz Truss is one of the few people in the cabinet who's really got their head around this questions of gender identity, which keeps coming up about, you know, self-identification of gender. She's someone who's actually taken a proper interest. I mean, she's a minister for women, so it's not outside of her purview. Ditto Andrea Leadsom. People who you would not think would be politically in sympathy with her said she did a good job on behalf of those victims of harassment in the Commons. And they thought she was a champion of women working in Parliament.

I know other people have said that, and she took on John Bercow when he was Speaker too, and that was quite a prominent, much-discussed set of circumstances, wasn't it? The thing I find interesting is that the Conservative Party elected a record number of women this time. Not, you know, the case of the Liberal Democrats and for Labour actually have now more female MPs than males. So things are definitely improving in raw number terms.

But when I went and looked through, just to remind myself, I always like to remind myself who's in the Cabinet, who haven't you seen on TV for a while, but isn't anyone else kind of clocking away in the background. 24 men and eight women attending cabinet. And then you look down the Treasury and there's not a single female minister in it. The FCO, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, has one woman. It's a seniority problem, sorry to cut in there again, Jane.

But also cabinet committees, select committees, those that have gone up for re-election this time, I think it's five out of eight male. Well, you could say that's not too bad. But if you look at the new committee heads, those who sort of fought through and got elected, usually with a bit of support from number 10 or the Treasury, the numbers of women are absolutely terrible. It's about three out of 15 of the newly elected select committee heads. And that's a route that's going to get you the experience to push on into ministerial

careers. Can we just drill down a little bit, the absence of women in the Treasury for example, what might that mean Helen in your view? Well that's a department that is seen as a place for grooming big, serious, big hitters. So Rishi Sunak who's in that department for example is seen as the guy that you now put on

the Today programme when you want someone who come out and won't say something absurd and stupid. I thought they weren't putting anybody on the Today programme. Even if you do want to go on the Today programme. That's Radio 4's breakfast show by the way. I hear it's very popular with that something yeah anyway okay but it's not very popular with the government at the moment but the point is that those those serious roles actually that's those are the ones that women struggle to get appointed to something like Minister for Care unsurprisingly enough and women do seem to end up getting into that role, or even actually Work and Pensions,

Therese Coffey there at the moment. But actually there is still a division of men are serious and they get the serious jobs. And it's why it was such a big deal for Penny Mordaunt to get Defence, because actually it was considered to be one of those, well, hang on a minute, how can a load of soldiers be ordered around by a woman? Well, might she be due for a comeback?

I mean, I think it's much more like you'd see people promoted from the junior rank. Someone like Kemi Badenoch is at junior level. But as Anne says, it is very noticeable that there are neither big people who've come in from the 29 intake, who've come in from a very starry career in business, for example, who can be ported directly into ministerial roles, nor are there great wafts of people at that middle level who can go up to cabinet level. They have got a real pipeline issue. The thing that will get them off the hook is, one, they've got an 80-seat majority, and I

think a few days of bad headlines from people like me complaining probably don't bother them that much. And secondly, they're looking at the Labour Party and thinking, that looks like a party that might be about, after having a long song and dance about how it's never had a female leader, about to pick another man, which we will mention every time at PMQs they try and bring this up. Okay we will talk about that very briefly Priti

Patel is likely to stay as Home Secretary but of course the events of yesterday in Streatham don't cast the Home Office in a terrific light or other government departments too. I think actually if you're Priti Patel and you're thought of as being tough anything, the charge against Priti Patel is that she's quite blunt, she's quite tough. She will, I think, respond in kind in terms of what needs to change. And she will give a lecture, I think, about sentencing in the wake of these terror attacks. I think she's absolutely deemed to be safe. She guards the right flank, which allows Boris Johnson to sort of brandish his credentials as a more liberal Brexiteer. I don't see this as being any particular threat. One of the great mysteries of modern politics has been there was a time when Home Secretaries,

if you remember, were falling like ninepins. They had the life expectancy of a chocolate teapot. And that hasn't been the case more recently. And a big part of that is the fact that justice as a ministry got taken out, prisons got taken out. And actually, this of that is the fact that justice as a ministry got taken out. Prisons got taken out. And actually this is... Less to go wrong. Well, less to go wrong. This is, I mean, still as the Windrush

show, a lot to go wrong. But, you know, the fact is that if this guy had been released in another 18 months' time, do we think that 18 months in prison is the trick

to have de-radicalised him? Actually, there's a much more serious question to be asked about what are the conditions in prisons? And the conditions in prisons which have been systematically removed funding over the last 10 years are grim they are

overcrowded they are falling apart but another issue that we haven't had been able to make time for because of brexit um so in a way that issue has moved on and we now can focus on things like social care the nhs all those other things which do matter so much to many of our listeners we must talk about labour and rebecca long bailey. She is very much the, well, she's a front runner apart from Keir Starmer, isn't she? So why might it not be her? Helen first, and then we will give you a chance, Anne, I promise. She's had the institutional backing of both Momentum and Unite, the big Labour Party donor, but she's not so far ahead in constituency Labour Party nominations, the grassroots nominations. And that's a really interesting thing about how much Jeremy Corbyn's own personal brand and imprimatur, I mean, he has all but endorsed her essentially, hasn't actually translated into,

you know, a kind of a coronation for and I think that's really, really interesting. It does show the limits of Corbynism. I don't think the party's having the full reckoning that I think it should do with its crushing defeat in December. But there is a certain realism creeping in that maybe some people didn't like all of their policies and personalities and they maybe should slightly recalibrate. Well, the very fact that Rebecca Long-Bailey has been so well supported suggests that, Helen, there are many people within the Labour movement who disagree profoundly with what you've just said and thoroughly back her and are still right behind Jeremy Corbyn's ideas as well. Oh, yeah, absolutely. They're out there writing articles about how, you know, well, Jeremy Corbyn's out there writing articles about how he won the argument and he just lost the votes, which is, you know, a bit of a problem in an election. But you're right. I mean, and Keir Starmer has definitively moved left during this election.

And that is where this is not a counter revolution where you go, hands up, we got the whole Corbyn project wrong. What's happened merely is that actually Keir Starmer has consolidated quite a bit of the centre-left, the left, and the people who just want someone, I think, who looks like a leader, and I think that looks like a middle-of-the-road white man to a lot of people. Anne? I think it also depends.

I think there is a bit of a long withdrawing roar from the Corbyn project at which people still say that they're very attached to it and maybe signal that they're going to support a leader from that background. I think Rebecca Longbelly, she strikes me as a sort of potentially very talented politician who sort of got chapped in a bit of an echo chamber of the politics of that Corbyn period. And she has to then make a case. Is she her own voice? She's a female voice. That's different from the older male voice that was Jeremy Corbyn.

But if it's different, then how is it different? And if the only thing that you're saying at the moment is, well, we offered too much of a good thing and bless them, the voters got a bit confused because all too good, then you're probably not going to prevail against someone like Keir Starmer, who is quite cleverly, I think, signalling to the left, but is broadly speaking, known as a centrist. I think she has a way to go as a politician, but I do think she has a certain energy and a verve to her. And wherever the Labour Party lands, ideologically is going to need that, especially with Boris Johnson's majority clonking them

over the head. And a really quick word from you both. Social care matters hugely to a large chunk of our audience. It should matter, of course, to all of us. When is that plan going to be unveiled? Either of you know? No, I don't. And the problem is that the Conservative Party manifesto says we're looking for a cross party solution to this. Well, every cross party solution has been brutalised by the fact that realistically the only pot of money big enough to pay for this is some sort of wealth tax.

And that's either a general wealth tax or specifically a tax on older people's savings, which is about as politically popular as compulsory euthanasia. So will anyone ever grasp that nettle is the question. Yeah, I think it will be kicked down the road. And if you remember, actually, a date did used to be put on producing papers about this, and then the Health Secretary, Matthew Hancock, withd if you remember actually a date did used to be put on producing papers about this and then the health secretary Matthew Hancock withdrew from actually having a date on it at all I fear it is like obviously it will be there and it will be a

burning issue because we brought up to to both the parties I don't think we'll see much action on it in the first couple of years. The crucial figure to remember is that 60 pence out of every pound that council spend has been taken away from them since 2010. I mean, this is an acute funding crisis and Sajid Javid has a budget coming up in March in which he's asked already for departmental cuts. There is going to be an enormous pressure on him to refloat some money. Where he gets

that money and when the government have promised not to raise VAT, National Insurance Income Tax, is a very very open question. Okay, it's a world of mystery in which we are now living. Your thoughts on that welcome as ever of course at BBC Women's Hour Instagram and Twitter you can email the programme whenever you like. Our thanks to Helen Lewis and to Anne McElvoy always very energising to start our week in their company. Now last Wednesday in our series about breaking free from damaging

relationship patterns we heard this account from a woman we're calling Sadie and she described her former partner as a narcissist. I realise now it's narcissism. What happens is, so they build you up. So at first you're not doing anything to earn this adoration, but then they start halving that and then you start working twice as hard to get half of the reward. So manipulative. And the other thing that would happen was in enclosed spaces. So if we were in public on a train or if we were in a car together

or in the back of the taxi, she had me locked in a space and she would start. And there were times when I ran out of trains, I ran across busy platforms, I ran out of moving cars like to run away from her because she'd get me. Why did you stay? I stayed because every so often I would react. Narcissists, they want you to react. It's what they're desperate for. They will come at you from every angle until you snap. When you snap, the whole argument becomes about you snapping, the whole focus. And then forevermore, everything in that relationship is all about those five times that you snapped. Not the six times a day they come at you, but the five times in the whole relationship where you broke. I felt so guilty for the things that I did that I went back into the relationship trying to prove to myself and to her that I was a good person. Did you have

any fun together? Well that's the other thing isn't it it's um the love bombing so after the argument then you get love bombed so yeah unfortunately quite a lot of our relationship was made up of her um you know making it up to me you know she was up for adventures she was made up of her, you know, making it up to me. You know, she was up for adventures. She was fun. But of course, you're living for the good moments. They're renowned for being very sexual and good in bed. And yeah, but yeah, towards the end, I think I was so worn down. Well, that got quite a big response from you. I'll read a couple of emails from listeners in a moment or two. But Catherine Baldwin is here. She's a love, dating and relationships coach and the author of How to Fall in Love. Catherine, good morning to you. Hello, Jane.

First of all, can I have a definition of narcissism from you, please? much in love with themselves. So it comes from Greek mythology, narcissists loved his reflection in the pool, but they have a real difficulty caring for anyone else. So having any concern for anyone else's feelings, they'll be selfish, they'll be arrogant, they'll also be very charismatic, but a high degree of self-importance. But everybody surely is somewhere on that spectrum if such a spectrum exists. Absolutely. Like many personality traits, narcissism is on a spectrum and we're all there somewhere. Right at the far end, you've got the pathological narcissists, but that's very rare. But then, you know, we're all there somewhere. We all have, underneath narcissism is often a low sense of self-esteem.

So we all struggle with that. But the problem is when it becomes, when it starts damaging relationships and when it starts damaging other people and when a narcissist preys on someone with low self-esteem and you end up with an abusive relationship. Now, in that description, Sadie really, very brilliantly actually, I thought, brought to life the love bombing, the intoxicating early stages of a relationship with an individual like this. Tell us a little bit about that. So a narcissist will, in the early stages,

they will flatter you, they'll be very persuasive, they'll probably hurry things, it will happen very quickly, very charismatic, lots of texts, lots of messages. She mentioned that they started sleeping together really quickly. But then once they get what they want, once they have you, then they might lose interest. And they might also start to undermine you and belittle you, because their own low self-esteemesteem they start projecting it onto you and also if you challenge them in any way they don't like that so the relationship can become quite toxic. How different is it to coercive control there are there are similarities?

There are similarities yes I'd say narcissists will probably exercise coercive control over their victims or over the people they're in relationship with. So if we are vulnerable to being controlled, to being manipulated, then we're going to get into that troublesome relationship. Also, the issue of codependency, I think that's a tricky one because almost all relationships have a sizable chunk of codependency about them, surely. So where the codependency becomes a problem is if I, as a codependent, really struggle with low self-esteem and insecurity and fear. And then I get myself in a relationship with someone who initially seems so amazing and it really boosts my self-esteem because they want to be with me because they have told you you are that you you alone are the solution to all their problems exactly so that boosts my self-esteem but then I get trapped because um and that's also quite addictive you know that being told that you're amazing and wonderful especially if you have low

self-esteem but I can get trapped in that relationship and then it becomes unhealthy and it's very difficult it can be very difficult to get out of. And are the narcissists doing this knowingly or are they unable to help themselves? So there's, underneath many narcissists is a vulnerability and a low self-esteem. There are others who aren't at all aware of what they're doing and they actually do believe in their self-importance

and in their value and their worth. But I believe that narcissists can change we can all develop you know we can all develop personally so if they start to if somebody can help them to see that underneath they are vulnerable and weak something that they hate and if they can be vulnerable then they can change but if you're in a relationship with a narcissist you have to ask yourself how am i feeling is this good for me or have i been lost have i lost myself yeah so you will people will lose themselves yeah um here are some emails and i did say i'd do these um this is from a listener who's anonymous um sadie is admirable in that she was able to see the reasons why she became a victim these people are predators who seek out empathic people and push them to their limits. And she beautifully described the carrot and stick they use in their abuse

to keep you hooked into the relationship, abusing your sense of decency and your caring qualities. You lose all sense of self in such relationship. It's akin to an addiction. They literally change your brain chemistry. You're nodding. That's right, is it? Well, you will become very... Imagine somebody is belittling you, manipulating you, undermining you.

And because you don't have a healthy self-esteem, you start believing it, and then your self-esteem gets worse and worse. So you become drained drained you have no energy left and you do need help to get out of that relationship you need people to support you you need your friends you might need a coach or a therapist you need people to remind you of who you are and of your value and your worth and you know that's the work I do it's all about building our self-esteem having healthy boundaries so that we don't fall into those relationships with people who are going to manipulate and control us.

Another listener says, I've just listened to that piece. It evokes that sick feeling in my stomach that I've had to deal with for many years. Thank you for reminding me how far I've come and how lucky I am now. The comment about the one five times you'd blown would become the focus um not the multiple abusive comments they'd made and it really struck home um she says i'm assuming it's a woman i'm not absolutely certain um yes that business the comment about the one five times you'd blown yes so somebody pushes you and pushes you and finally you react and then the argument becomes about the fact that you've reacted exactly that is That is pretty common isn't it? Yeah so then it's your fault so this is like gaslighting then somebody starts making you feel that it's your fault you've done something wrong and then you start apologising

and that dynamic is really unhealthy because unless you've got someone to help you to get back to yourself and to build yourself up you're going to get stuck in that. And are you more vulnerable if you've come from a particular set of circumstances, if your parents have behaved in a particular way, for example? As a victim of narcissism? As a victim. Yes, because you don't have a strong sense of self. You haven't had a secure base.

You don't believe in yourself. So you are more vulnerable. So that's why all the work I do is about building up your sense of self-esteem, your sense of confidence, your sense of your own worth and value. And also knowing, connecting to your intuition and noticing those red flags. Okay, that person, they might be love bombing me, this feels a bit much, or hang on, they're coming on really strong, and then they're pulling back. And talking to your friends or talking to a professional and saying, you know, something isn't right here and trusting yourself. Does this, your wisdom, does it come from personal experience?

It comes from personal experience of not having strong, healthy self-esteem and being in relationships with people who weren't right for me or who were emotionally unavailable. And obviously the narcissist is emotionally unavailable at the extreme. Right. OK, it's absolutely fascinating stuff. And I'm pretty sure you've struck a chord. So any more thoughts on this from you? Please do tell us about your own relationships. I suppose what I'm conscious of, Catherine, is I don't want people to feel I know you're coughing. Have a cough. Nobody will mind.

Catherine's just having a little drink. I don't want people to start having negative thoughts about relationships that maybe aren't troublesome but which perhaps this discussion has made them question do you see what I mean? or are you not capable of answering the question? don't worry sorry my throat's really bad right now so I think it's about asking yourself

am I happy in my relationship? obviously all relationships have difficulties but am I happy or is somebody undermining me grinding me down um we'll leave it there i can tell you sorry no it's that time of year i absolutely get it um thank you very much katherine that is the um expert on relationships katherine baldwin the author of a book called how to fall in love uh you're listening to women's hour tomorrow actually we're going to be talking, and this is really interesting, about domestic service and how it's changed over the last 100 years. My guests are going to include historian Annie Gray. She's written this book.

I've been really enjoying this. It's called Victory in the Kitchen. And it's about the life of Winston Churchill's cook, Georgina Landemar. So we'll talk about Georgina Landemar. We'll also have on the programme tomorrow her granddaughter, who's called Edwina Brocklesby. So they'll both be on the show tomorrow. Looking forward to that. And on Wednesday, we'll look in more detail about contemporary domestic service. Are you a cleaner or a nanny? Do you do bits of work in other people's houses?

How do you feel about it? How do they treat you? How do your friends rate you, if you see what I mean? What do they think about what you do for a living? What about the rest of your family? And if you're somebody who employs somebody in your house, do you think you treat them properly, correctly? Is there any real intimacy between you? Do other people, maybe even you yourself, judge yourself for employing someone to do the work that you might have been expected to do yourself? So that's later this week on Woman's Hour. We want your involvement, of course. You can email the programme via the website. And also on Friday, I'm going to be talking to Frankie

Bridge, who's written a really frank book about her life and about her mental health. So Frankie Bridge on Women's Hour on Friday. Now, Carol Dysinger is here. Congratulations to you, Carol. Thank you very much. Winner of a BAFTA. You don't need to wear your headphones. No, you can leave them.

You were at the ceremony last night, was it? Yes, I was. It's always described as glittering, but it's quite long, isn't it? Well, it's Royal Albert Hall. I mean, yes, it as glittering but it's quite long isn't it it's well it's it's alb it's royal albert hall i mean yes it's long but it's it's glittery for sure rosette okay um and who did you spot there of any interest did you um see any stars that you were hoping to see or was it not well i'm a little bit over that these days but um i did meet the cellist Hildur, who I admire very much. If that can be a celebrity. Yeah, there were, I mean, it was not really.

No. Okay, that's a very honest answer. Your film is called Learning to Skate in a War Zone if You're a Girl. And it won the BAFTA for Best Short Film. Now, I was captivated by this because this is a real slice of life. It's about a skateboarding center in Kabul. And I mean, what we know, we've discussed Afghanistan and the lives of Afghan women on this program forever. But things don't seem to improve greatly if this film is anything to go by. Well, I think when anybody talks about improvement in Afghanistan, I think sometimes they don't compare it to Afghanistan itself.

People always ask me about progress there. And I say, you know, Karzai left office and is still alive. And that's that's progress. It's pretty limited when you put it that way. Well. And that's progress. It's pretty limited when you put it that way. Well, but it's progress. What is your interest in the country? Well, I don't know. I just always loved books about it. And Kashmir, I was obsessed with as a kid.

But I think really what got me over there is when the Afghan war sort of disappeared behind the Iraq shock and awe show. I really, and then they started saying, oh, we're going to train the Afghan army to fight their own war. I'm old enough to remember the Vietnam War, which had much the same selling point. And then I learned the National Guard from New Jersey was going to be training the Afghan army, which meant somebody who had never fought in war was about to train somebody who'd been doing nothing but fighting. And I thought, this could be a comedy, it could be a tragedy, but it'll be a really good movie. So I went to make Camp Victory Afghanistan.

And what year was that? I went over in 2005. Right. So I just kept going back and back and back. And what are conditions for someone like you, a female film director, making a film? What is it like? How do people treat you? Well, it depends on where I am and with whom.

I mean, I made certain that everybody knew I was a professor. I'm also a woman of a certain age and gray hair. So that meant that that gave me some standing with the Afghan men. I wasn't of marriageable age, given when people have children there, I was probably as old as their great-great-grandmother. But they called me professor and that that gave me respect to some degree in some places and because you are a woman you have access to the lives of women and girls yeah and that is what this film is is about yeah and that was really what what made me want to make this film so badly is that i would go and interview for my first film,

Camp Victory Afghanistan, I would go to officers' houses, and I would be in this very sort of Persian version of an Jane Austen parlor, everybody's sitting very properly drinking way too much tea, and the men, and they would accept me as a professor, you know, as a Western woman, I'm sort of a third gender. But I could go through the curtain. And the minute I would go through the curtain, it would be like being in the ladies room in high school, you know, somebody would hand me a baby, one of the girls would like look in my purse for lipstick. I mean, it was just like being a girl. It was such a relief when I was there to have this moment of just full onslaught, recognizable femaleness.

Old ladies feeding me. You know, it just was such a relief, even though I had no language. And they welcome the intrusion, if you can call it that. Oh, yeah, I'm fascinating to them. I mean, I was just sort of like, you know, a Western woman who, I never said I was divorced. I said I was widowed.

I'm sorry I lied, but it just was easier. And my ex-husband understands, I think. But I don't have kids, you know. And so they were just like, I was just interesting because they don't get to meet Westerners, you know. The little girls, and they are little girls. It broke my heart, actually. They are. We should also say, and it shouldn't matter, but they are beautiful.

I know. They are absolutely beautiful girls. And their faces are full of hope. I know. And you want to just say to them, I am just so sorry that your lives are going to be so, so challenging. And they are taught to skateboard by a very, very determined instructor. Hanifa. How do they get permission to even learn how to skateboard?

How does that all work? Skatistan is a very remarkable institution because it grew up, unlike so many NGO operations in Kabul, it grew up to fill an actual need, which is that a lot of poor kids don't start school at an appropriate age, either because they're internally displaced just because they're poor, there's no schools in the area, but, you know, an elder relative is a little freaky about that stuff. But what Skate-A-Stand does, it will take those kids and give them the first through the third grade curriculum in one year. So it's not just about skateboarding? It's not just about skateboarding. It's about education. And the skateboarding, well, for the boys, because it also teaches boys,

the skateboarding keeps them coming because they can run free, crazy, all over Kabul. And, you know, so the skateboarding keeps them coming. But for the girls, it teaches them, I thought, a kind of courage, you know, to not be afraid of failing, to understand that you can try and fail and not be punished or have your life destroyed because of it. So so by and it's completely run by Afghans. There are no Westerners on site. I mean, there's an interest. There's a there's a board of directors in Germany that raises money. But so it's really these poor kids can then join the Afghan public school system at a proper age. We need to make clear that the Taliban is no longer in control of Afghanistan, but its presence, they are haunted by the Taliban, aren't they? And the lives of women and girls are still so restricted.

Well, it depends on where you are in the country and it depends on your family. This is Kabul this is Kabul yeah and even you know and it depends on the perception of safety where you are right but and I think the Taliban don't you know what laws there are are more cultural right now the Taliban's laws are not in place so much but you know it's scary like by, by allowing by, by appeasing the Taliban, America coming to the table without the Afghan government at the table. It makes it a lot more difficult for the Afghan government to fight for human rights for just the rights of the Afghan people, including the women. But it does mean, as illustrated by your film, that there was one really sweet girl of 12 who basically knew that by the time her next birthday rolled around, she wouldn't be allowed to go skateboarding. She wouldn't actually be allowed

out of the house. Right. And that's cultural, you know, and that's the thing that the laws have to be such that they can do it legally, and then the families change. And I don't know. I mean, it could be that that girl becomes a trainer. And if she does, she's going to make income. And if she makes income, the family's going to let her leave the house. You know, so there's this leadership training that they get, that their parents also get. So I don't know what's happened to her. Skateistan is very closed about news of the girls because they want to keep them in Afghanistan and don't want them to get crazy ideas about being

movie stars. Or having a life. Well, they have a life. It's just a life that's hard for us to imagine. Well, I think your film allows us to at least try to imagine. So congratulations to you, Carol. Thank you very, very very much it's a great achievement learning to skate in a war zone if you're a girl and where can people see that um right now it's streaming on a and e uh which i think is only in the states but a and e is starting to work out an international um thing and you know i think skatistan may post something soon. Skatistan has, you know, a website. And, you know, education is a revolution. It certainly is. Carol, thank you.

Thank you. Very much. Now, we should say that Jenny actually spoke to another BAFTA-winning documentary maker, Wad Al-Khatab, who made Fasama. That was a film about war-torn Aleppo. And that was incredible as well, wasn't it? Beautiful film. You can find it, if you want to hear that interview, you can find it, of course, on BBC Sounds.

Good to meet you, Carol. Thank you very much. You can go, you can stay, you can do whatever you like. Okay, thank you. I'm going to run for a plane. All right. Take some hangover medicine. Right, okay.

That is a lot of fun. Everybody should win one, but hopefully when you're younger. Take care of yourself, Carol. Thank you. You'll be fine in a couple of days. Now, you're listening to Women's Hour. Very good morning to you. Huntington's disease is a progressive brain disorder.

Now, unfortunately, there is no cure, and symptoms include involuntary movements and depression, personality changes and problems swallowing, speaking and breathing as well. And if a parent has it, there is a 50% chance that each of their children will go on to develop the condition. Danielle Thomas is with us. Good morning to you, Danielle. Good morning.

Danielle's 32, just got married, that's right? Married last year. Oh, well, congratulations. You run a cafe and your mum, Lisa, is in the later stages of Huntington's. She is, yeah, she is. She's in the later stages now. We care for her at home full time. Yeah, your dad is with you this morning, I know, as well. He is, yeah. You've made a film for BBC Stories, which people can find via the BBC News website. But I know, Danielle, that you recently took a test, a genetic test, which revealed that you also have the gene. Now,

as it stands, that means that you will develop huntingtons that's correct yeah um my cag count is actually um on the lower end um what does that mean um so in everybody's blood test um they have a certain amount of um cag repeats um in each gene and my cag count is quite low um which means that I won't develop any symptoms for at least 10 years hopefully um medicine is coming you know such a long way and the developments are unbelievable um even in the last 10 years there's so much has happened um that isn't available for my mum unfortunately but even my mum wasn't able to have any of these things. What you do know is that your own mum lost her mum when she was

very little. Yes my mum was four when her mum passed away which is why my mum didn't know that it you know run in the family you have taken the test your sister has decided not to yes my sister is very adamant that she doesn't want to know we've both been complete polar opposites in our decisions I've I've always wanted to know I said I'd make a decision by the time I was 30 whether I was definitely going to have the test or not and I wanted to wait for my sister to see if she changed her mind at all so we could do the journey together. Sophie is still quite adamant that she doesn't want to have the test done. And it does make

things a little bit more difficult for her now because she has my niece, who was a surprise. But it makes things a lot more difficult for my sister so I completely understand why she doesn't want to have the test. Why were you so certain that you did want to have it? I think it helps with planning for the future and it was it was always at the back of my mind you know I think about it at least two or three times a week. And in regards to planning a family for us in the future, we can go down the route of something called PGDIVF, where they actually test my eggs to see if the eggs carry the gene. So they can make sure that my eggs don't carry the gene and then re-implant them.

And you're being helped along the way here. I know that before you even had the test, you were counselled, people were with you, because this is, well, it absolutely must change the way you think about your life. It definitely does. And the counselling was unbelievable that I received. I actually went to an outbuilding at Great Ormond Street in the neurological department and my doctor, she was fantastic. And you can stop the process at any time. So, you know, once you start your counselling, that doesn't mean that you still have to go forward and have the test. You can stop the process at any time up until, you know, the day of your blood test.

Once you've had the blood test, you have to receive your results. But I was made to feel so at ease and because I have got quite a good knowledge of Huntington's disease um you know we had some really good conversations about it as well so it really did help me and shortly after you you found out that you did indeed have the gene did you speak to your sister did you did you tell her very quickly what you'd found out about yourself? My sister was actually there with me on the day. Yeah, we did some filming here at the BBC and she came with me on the day along with my husband and she did wait outside to start with, but I wanted her there.

So, yeah, she came in and she was with me when I got the results. I had the pleasure of meeting your dad, actually, before we started the programme today and he was talking about your mum and about how I think you've been on a night out what I'm really anxious people to understand is that your mum is still still with you she's still there and she's still living a life not not least because of the fantastic care she's had from your dad and the rest of the family and the carers you have yeah mum is um she's always been very outgoing um she loved the film crew coming to the house and filming her she um she was

completely in awe of them um and very well behaved all day um but yeah she was always the last one at the party and that's that's the case now you know it is more manageable for us now. It sounds awful, but now she's in a wheelchair and we can manage her movements because at one stage she was falling over all the time. She wouldn't go in a wheelchair. She was so determined and so strong to carry on living an independent life. But it's so difficult with Huntington's disease.

You know, we had to watch her 24 hours a day. But now, you know, we go to parties and she still wants to be the last one there and she has the best time so yeah she's still living a very full life. We know that one of the symptoms is personality changes and well can you tell me can there be bouts of anger and sudden flare-ups that perhaps were not characteristic of the person that used to be there, if you see what I mean. Yeah. Through my teenage years, looking back now, we didn't know at the time that mum had Huntington's disease. But looking back, we see that, you know, that was part of her condition, you know, the flare-ups and the anger that she'd show towards me and my sister for no reason.

But that wasn't her you know that was that was just the condition coming through and she used to um fall over quite a lot she'd have a lot of angry outbursts um she fell down the stairs a couple of times and there was so many things that happened that probably couldn't be prevented because of the condition. But now, as I say, things are a lot more manageable with her. And you are committed, I know, to being very public about this, because this is not an easy bit of information to share about yourself, is it? No, I don't think Huntington's disease is well known enough.

It falls along the same sort of lines as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, MS, those sorts of conditions which are well publicised but Huntington's disease isn't and the Huntington's Disease Association are, you know, they're a fantastic charity offering a lot of advice but I just don't think enough people know about the condition And that's why I want to really publicise this and really help people understand about the disease. That's Danielle Thomas. And if you'd like help and advice about Huntington's, there is a link on our website. You can also go to the BBC News website,

search BBC Stories, and you'll be able to see the film featuring Danielle, her sister Sophie, and their mum Lisa as well. George, their dad, was here today, but he doesn't feature much in the film featuring Danielle, her sister Sophie and their mum Lisa as well. George, their dad, was here today but he doesn't feature much in the film. Apparently he told me earlier he was a little bit camera shy so he didn't want to get involved but very much involved on a daily basis in the care of Lisa. Now to your emails this morning about narcissism. Here they're all anonymous. The first one says thank you very much for this item this morning. It helped make me realise what has been happening to me. Your programme has helped towards steps, I mentally ticked off every single one. The picture totally fitted my husband. It made a lot of sense. I suffered coercive control for many years. Needless

to say, we are no longer together. I only survived it due to my amazing female friends. Another listener says, what about those of us who grew up with narcissistic mothers? I had no idea until I was 40 what my problem was. My mother is still alive and I've never confronted her. Any relationship I've managed to maintain would be irrevocably broken, but it's been very difficult and my sister nearly died with the mental health issues it caused her. Another listener, what about the children of narcissists? My son has had a hard time with his dad and it has affected his whole personality. He's really anxious and has low self-esteem. I feel that my ex really manipulates him, unwittingly I think.

I am now divorced and free from my ex, but my son is still affected and influenced by him. He is now grown up and at university. I feel powerless to help him as I don't want to denigrate his dad, but I feel very strongly that he's causing my son real issues. And another person who was listening says, I've just joined the programme partway through the piece on getting involved in the wrong relationships. I gather it's focusing on romantic relationships. I, however, have experienced this kind of relationship in the workplace. All of the characteristics described are exactly what I experienced

and led to a serious deterioration in my mental health. It destroyed my career as the narcissistic characteristics belonged to my boss. I ended up having to retire early from a job I really used to love and I'm still struggling to recover from the damage the relationship did to my self-esteem and self-belief. And a listener that we can give a name to, Emma, says I'm writing about the piece on narcissism. The speaker, that was Catherine, wasn't it, made the point that narcissists can change. This kind of attitude is what keeps people stuck in these destructive and unhealthy relationships.

Narcissists, in my view, are unlikely to change. Their characteristics stop them reflecting and being able to empathise. As such, they will not change. By recognising this, those suffering their abuse will not stay to see if they can help them change, but put in boundaries to protect themselves. Don't underestimate them. Tomorrow, I am really looking forward to talking to Annie Gray, the historian, about her book about Winston Churchill's cook, Georgina Landemar.

It's one of those books that is absolutely stuffed with top quality anecdotes. And there's a great deal of food history in there as well and social history. It's interesting stuff. That is tomorrow in there as well. And social history. It's interesting stuff. That is tomorrow on Woman's Hour. I hope you can join us then. If you're listening to some other podcast, then stop now and listen to a good one.

Because the Infinite Monkey Cage is back for a new series. And we're doing loads of things, aren't we, Robin? We're going to be dealing with the science of laughter, conspiracy theories, coral reefs, quantum worlds, and finally UFOs. I love UFOs. It's also, by the way, the UFO one available worlds, and finally UFOs. I love UFOs. It's also, by the way, the UFO one available to watch on iPlayer. In fact, all of the series that we've done are available on BBC Sounds.

I must say that I wouldn't bother with the first series. I don't think it's very good. I wouldn't bother with the first two. Yeah. But we were played by different people then, I think, weren't we? Yeah, yeah. Melvin Bragg was you. You were Debbie McGee.

Debbie McGee. Bragg and McGee. Now that is a 1980s TV detective series that i will be making i'm sarah 11 and for over a year i've been working on one of the most complex stories i've ever covered there was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies i started like warning everybody every doula that i know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.