Woman's Hour - Leaving friends on a night out; Emma Gannon; Black women and photography; Asylum seeking women in lockdown;

Episode Date: July 20, 2020

Michaela Coel’s BBC drama ‘I May Destroy You’ has brought to light a number of interesting dilemmas, particularly within the realm of female friendships. Today we ask – is it okay to leave a friend on a night out? If a friend is too drunk or too disorderly to take care of themselves, but refuses to leave the venue or get in a cab, what can and should you do? Harriet Marsden is a freelance journalist. Toni Tone is a public speaker and podcast presenter.A new report by the SistersNotStrangers coalition, a group of 8 women’s organisations across the country, reveals the hardships experienced by asylum-seeking women in England and Wales during the pandemic. They say women have been homeless and hungry during the pandemic and are calling for ‘far-reaching’ reforms of the asylum process. Jane hears from Loraine Mponela who has sought asylum and Natasha Walter, Director of Women for Refugee Women and one of organisations behind the report. Emma Gannon’s heroine Olive is thirty three and childfree by choice. She has a dream job, close friends and her life might seem Instagram-perfect. But, things are complicated. Her relationships and friendships are changing and other people’s expectations are hemming her in. Adult life is not turning out as she thought it would and Olive needs to take stock. Writer, podcaster and now novelist Emma Gannon joins Jane. The gymnast Simone Biles is on the cover of Vogue’s August 2020 issue, but critics have said the photoshoot highlights why there needs to be more diversity in the photography industry. Jane discusses the issues of photographing black women, both in front of and behind the camera, with the photographer Ola Adegoroye and Lazara Storm, who works as a commercial model and is now moving behind the scenes.Presented by Jane Garvey Produced by Sarah Crawley Interviewed guest: Loraine Mponela Interviewed guest: Natasha Walter Interviewed guest: Emma Gannon Interviewed guest: Ola Adegoroye Interviewed guest: Lazara Storm Interviewed guest: Harriet Marsden Interviewed guest: Toni Tone

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. It's the Woman's Hour podcast. It's Monday, July the 20th, 2020. Hi there, good morning. Welcome to another week on the programme. Today I'm going to be talking to the novelist Emma Gannon, her latest book Olive. It's her first fiction and it's about a 33-year-old woman, child-free by choice. Is that really still controversial? Let us know what you think about that. Simone Biles has been on the recent cover of American Vogue, photographed by Annie Leibovitz, an acclaimed photographer, of course,

but not everybody liked the images. We're asking today whether we need more diversity in photography. And if you haven't seen I May Destroy You, you probably should start watching this incredible BBC series by Michaela Cole. It has started so many conversations. And this morning, we look at just one aspect of that remarkable series, your responsibility to your mates on a night out. I guess we've all been there at some point in our social lives.

What happened to you? Who looked out for you? Did you look after somebody else? Let us know at BBC Woman's Hour on Twitter or Instagram as well, of course. And you can email our programme whenever you like via the website bbc.co.uk slash Woman's Hour. Now, there's no doubt that life has been difficult or indeed quite challenging for many of us over the last couple of months. But spare a thought this morning for asylum seeking women. A new report by the Sisters Not Strangers Coalition, a group of eight women's organisations across the country, reveals the real hardship experienced by asylum seeking women in England and Wales. The report says women have been made homeless and become hungry during the pandemic and the entire asylum process needs reform. Well, in a moment, we'll talk to Natasha

Walter, the Director of Women for Refugee Women. First, have a listen to this. I've been talking to Lorraine Mupinola. She is from Malawi and she came to the UK in 2008. Her asylum claim was turned down three years ago. I was studying at the University of Leeds where I did my Masters in Public Health and I worked a little bit because by then they used to have a post-study work visa. And after that, 2015, that's when now I claimed asylum. But when I was given a house, that's when I moved to Coventry. So I live in Coventry now. And how would you describe your life in Coventry, Lorraine?

It is hard. When I first came, because I was an asylum seeker, I was on the support. It's not great. I think by then it was around £36. It's been a struggle. And being in a new place, I had to look for, you know, different charities who is providing what to supplement with what I didn't have any support. I didn't have accommodation. I became homeless. And fortunately, one of the charities that I contacted, they said they had a room. So they provided me with a room. That's where I still live. But it has been, yeah, it has been hard life all through. Just to make it clear to our listeners then, when your appeal for asylum, your claim for asylum was turned down, you lost your money, which was £36 a week.

Yes. Yeah. So now you've got nothing and you're reliant on charity to help you out. And they are the ones who provided your accommodation. Yes. So the charity that gave me accommodation is just accommodation without food so on daily basis I have to think about how can I find food so during this COVID-19 this is why it has been it has been a challenge as well because before COVID I used to kind of like go in different places. I used to, one day I used to go to Birmingham to volunteer with another charity, which I couldn't do during this time.

Here in Coventry, I used to go to migrant centre, Careers of Hope, different charities providing different things on different day. So, yeah, that worked before COVID. But with COVID, everyone closed and it was really hard. So what do you do now? I contact different charities like Women for Refugee Women. And there are some small, like, destitution funds from different charities. And, yeah, it's been like a cycle like that. But I'm one of the lucky people, really,

because I'm able to get this small, small support from different charities. Some people haven't had that chance. It's not the best of life, really, because I'm someone who can, you know, like I said before, that I used to work when I had a visa. So it's not in my interest to be, you know, asking for money, asking for food, asking for all sorts of things. I would have loved if I was able to provide for myself. Yes, you want to work and you want to support yourself, as you say.

So just give us a bit of an insight then. Do you have to go without meals? What are you, how are you surviving? I haven't really gone to bed like hungry with completely without food. Because where I live, I live with my housemates who also have been very, very supportive of me. They're the ones who have been doing shopping for me. When the pandemic started, I'm someone who, if I was like, you know, like everyone else, I would be someone who would be shielded.

But because of other things that are going on with me, I'm pre-diabetic, obesity and things like that. And also just hearing that BME people, you are three times or four times as high as getting COVID. So automatically it made me to just, you know, withdraw and stay at home. So I haven't had a chance of you know like meeting people physically. You're still not going out or you're being very careful about going out? Yes I'm still not going out because I'm still scared. Where I live we have like a big garden so mostly I just walk around in the garden which is yeah, yeah, which is really good. And yeah, I'm lucky because some people don't have that. Lorraine, who is grateful for what she does have.

Natasha Walter is the director of Women for Refugee Women, one of the organisations behind the report. Natasha, good morning to you. Good morning, Jane. Now, tell us a little bit about Lorraine. She is interesting. She hasn't actually given up on claiming asylum in this country, has she? Absolutely not. No, she hasn't. And she was working on further submissions on a new claim for her asylum case when the pandemic hit. But unfortunately, then her solicitor said that they were unable to retrieve the papers from

the office. And we found that with a lot of the women we spoke to for this report. So we spoke to over 100 women for this report, and about a third of them actually said that they'd had hearings delayed, you know, problems that had come into trying to regularise their status during the lockdown, which of course makes it even harder for women. And Jane, I'd just love to tell you something else about Lorraine, which she didn't really tell you. She spoke quite eloquently there about some of the hardships that she's faced, but she's also a real mover and shaker in her own community. She's the chair of

the Coventry Asylum and Refugee Action Group, which is one of the organisations that produced this report. And she actually provides amazing support, you know, on the phone because she can't go out to other women in her community who are suffering more than she is. And also, she made very clear how grateful she was for what she did have. Absolutely. She is one of the more fortunate because she has a place to rest her head at night. Exactly. And a supportive place where she feels sort of comfortable and, you know, that she has friends around. I mean, I think that putting together this report alongside organisations throughout England and Wales, it really sort of brought home to me just the struggles that women in the asylum process are still going through.

I mean, we spoke to, as you've highlighted, women refused asylum, but also a lot of women in the asylum process and women who have their refugee status. And all of them were struggling. You know, three quarters of them said that they went hungry during the pandemic. A fifth of them were homeless, staying with community members or friends often.

But some of them were you know street homeless i mean there are a couple of women in our london network that i know more directly one who slept on the buses for a week during lockdown there was one woman chucked out of where she was staying i think it was with a church or a mosque and she was chucked out at the beginning of lockdown and then she was sleeping on a park bench for a few nights. And you remember the kind of, you know, what London was like at the beginning of the lockdown. I mean, it was a frightening place to be for a young woman, you know, who is already a survivor of abuse. You know, because let's not forget that most of the women in the asylum process, as we've covered in previous research, you know, they have already experienced abuse and

exploitation, and then to be sort of thrust into this really, really vulnerable situations during a pandemic. I think it just brought it home again, to me, you know, just how vulnerable women asylum seekers are, and how we just have to do more as a society as fellow women, you know, just how vulnerable women asylum seekers are and how we just have to do more as a society, as fellow women, you know, to support them. And that's why the coalition is called Sisters Not Strangers, because, you know, these women live among us. And I think we could be more aware of our shared humanity. Yes, well, they may well live amongst us, but the truth is most of us don't know anything about them or their daily lives. We have a statement here from the Home Office who say we take the well-being of asylum seekers seriously and anybody with an open claim

can apply for accommodation, including all meals and all financial support. They say we've taken decisive action to look after asylum seekers' well-being during the pandemic. Those who would have ordinarily had their support stopped because their claim has been rejected have continued getting support and accommodation. Are you saying they're wrong, Natasha? Yes, I mean, it's been a really confusing picture on the support for those whose claims have been refused.

There were some cases that seemed to suggest that yes, support would be continued, but it was very difficult to access to get the right evidence you know it needed legal advice or casework advice for women to try and put in those applications again um we're working with some very very vulnerable women in london who were scared to apply because they were scared of being sent out of london so it all got very confusing and when of course you can't come out of your house and get any advice, a lot of women just weren't able to apply for any available support or did apply and found that they weren't eligible. So it got very confusing. I'm not saying

that there wasn't anything good done from the start of the lockdown. You know, the emergency hotel accommodation for those who are facing street homelessness was really, really a lifesaver for a lot of very vulnerable people. Of course, what we're facing now is a huge uncertainty about whether that's going to continue and whether the people that were taken into hotels are just going to be back on the streets. You're calling as an organisation for a wholesale reform of the entire system. What is it you'd like? I mean, we haven't got that much time. What is it you really believe needs to be done? I know, I haven't got enough time. You know, I'd love to talk more about it. But we really feel, you know, the asylum process has really let down a lot of very vulnerable women for a long, long time. And we do need wholesale reform, a route to paths to citizenship for those who have been stuck like this, like Lorraine.

We need obviously this isn't just about asylum seekers. We need more investment in safe housing so that women who would otherwise be very vulnerable and open to abuse, you know, can get into safe accommodation. And a means whereby those in the asylum process can actually live lives of dignity. I mean, even in before the pandemic, it's just not okay that people who are claiming asylum are on such low rates of support that they still have to go round to charities and food banks and so on, you know, and are bringing up their children in such situations that their kids are going hungry. That's something that, you know, half of the women we talked to had kids and we're talking about their kids being hungry, their kids not being able to access education, obviously, while the schools are closed. So I just, there is a lot I think that needs to be done for asylum seekers and for all those in the margins of our society. I think while we think about how do we want to build out of the pandemic? You know, what do we actually want to see in order to build a fairer and more caring society?

Natasha Walter, thank you very much indeed. The thoughts of Natasha Walter from Women for Refugee Women. If you'd like to express a view on that, of course you can, however you like. Now, the new novel by Emma Gannon, podcaster and a writer of non nonfiction in the past. Emma, welcome to the programme. Thanks for having me, Jane. It's great to talk to you. Your novel is called Olive, and it's about a central character called Olive, 33, child-free by choice. Now she's got a great job. She's got loads of old mates, good mates, and her life is, I don't know, infinitely Instagrammable, I guess.

There's a but coming. What is the but in Olive's life, would you say, Emma? Well, we meet Olive at the beginning of the novel, having just broken up with her boyfriend of 10 years. And it's because they hadn't really had the baby conversation, hadn't really come up. And, you know, it transpires that he really wants to have a family and she doesn't so it begins there and we follow Olive's journey being child free by choice but navigating her friendships where her three best friends very much want to be mothers and are you know going through their own path there. Yes and very different paths actually in the book. Very different so one of the friends Isla she's going through IVF.

She's actually finding it incredibly difficult to be around one of their other friends who's newly pregnant. And then you've got the other friend who has a bit of a chaotic household. She's kind of done the baby thing very early in life. So she's in her early 30s, but having three children. So Olive, yeah, she's figuring things out. And she's feeling maybe a bit left out. She's going through her own emotions. But really, I just wanted to show a protagonist who isn't going down the motherhood route and just showing what that's like. What's really interesting, there's a night out described at the beginning of the book, where other people sort of fall by the wayside, various things happen, which mean that they have

to go home. And I guess there is a time in all our lives when we realise we get to our early 30s and people start having other priorities. They just do. They do. And I think in your 20s and younger, you kind of have the same milestones in life. You feel very connected. You're a bit of a unit. You make decisions together. And then suddenly, you know, your very best friend can turn around and say, I'm, you know, I'm pregnant or something. And then you can have this weird feeling of, hang on a minute, that wasn't supposed to happen. You know, we were supposed to do things together. And you start feeling very, very different from your friends suddenly. So yeah, it's about sort of going through your 30s and maybe being a bit selfish in ways, you know, going through your own thoughts and feeling like your your thing matters the most and so yeah the friendship

group can get a bit tense at times um yes people are I think they've greeted your novel with profound relief some women haven't they because they're just saying oh thank you thank you for saying this stuff they have I mean I mean, I've really felt the momentum, actually, of this conversation again. It's not new, of course, but it feels like it's having a new lease of life. And a lot of younger women in their 20s are getting in touch saying, I feel so relieved. I've always felt this way. But also older women who feel really unapologetic and really happy with their life choices, but have always felt the stigma of society and their family members. So it's been great. And also, it's not just child free by choice women who are getting in touch. It's all women, you know, mothers, people that are going

through IVF themselves. I just feel quite united by the conversation, really. Is it still a stigma to be a 33 year old woman and to say, no, no, it's not for me for me actually i really don't want to have children you'd think we would have gone past this and i'm getting some comments saying wow we're still talking about this but yeah well i almost don't want to ask you about it but it is the subject of the book to be fair but go on yeah no no exactly and i've been surprised myself that i'm feeling it personally at the moment you know know, I'm 31, I'm getting married next year. These questions are really coming for me.

And it feels like everyone just wants a reason or they want to hear that you might change your mind or they just want to feel justified that, you know, you know what you're doing and you're doing the right thing. And it's just so interesting that we're not there yet where people can't just nod and think, OK, great, great for you. I had my first child over 20 years ago and I actually don't think motherhood was discussed and fetishized then to the degree

it is now it didn't feel like such a big thing Instagram obviously wasn't around so no one was asking me to post images of my dreamy lovely lovely life at home. And of course, inevitably, it wasn't really like that, because it isn't for anyone. Do you think the pressure has actually increased on women to enjoy motherhood? Maybe I do think there is this Instagram shine on everyone's life. So I would say that everyone, you know, regardless of whether you're a mother, you're trying to show the best version. But yeah, I think, yeah, it's become a bit of a brand. You know, being a mother now is kind of an outward looking thing that you kind of maybe, yeah, aspire to. But I think we're all going through that. So I wouldn't say it's just, you know, on one side or the other. But maybe people

are more shocked in a way that I don't want to do it because it looks like it's been fetishised. Do you have people in your family, your immediate personal circle, saying, well, Emma, you're only 31, so of course you could change your mind? No, I haven't really had that. I feel very lucky. I just have a family that, you know, wants the best for me and wouldn't really put their own thoughts onto it too much um but I mean I'm from a really big family so I do get this sense of a lot of child-free women who maybe feel off the hook because they have siblings that have children so you kind of feel like you can just be the one that chills out and doesn't do that but then that's a really weird way of looking at it as well so it shows that I've internalized it being a strange thing to do

yeah that is that is a weird one isn't it um so your parents certainly wouldn't question your belief they're absolutely on side yeah I mean I've not I have not had that pushback from my immediate circle the real thing that I've written about is acquaintances or people at parties or you know a meeting you know, a meeting, you know, it's very much that small talk that has kind of grinded me down slightly when people talk about the weather, but then they also just casually say, do you have children or when people have had a baby and then people say, are you going to have another one? You know, it's just it's that social conversation outside of my immediate family that has kind of worn me down a bit. At the same time

I know that you're aware that there is there is a privilege at work here isn't there because you have a not just a job you have a career it's a passion for you you're very successful having a child would be well it would emphatically change things it isn't true of all women, is it? It just isn't. You know, it's really interesting. I've been asked that a bit. People saying, well, is it because you want to go and write your books? And is it because you can do X, Y and Z? And it's true on one hand that I really do have something that fulfills me and I don't feel worried about my future because I know how I'm going to fill my time and I'm actually really excited about the life hopefully I'm going to have but you know it's interesting Zadie Smith talks about having children and how it's made her more productive in her work and more productive in her writing so

I think there's such a case for having children I think it looks amazing for many others but just for me hopefully regardless of my career it's not something that I felt is for me. There's also that age-old thing which we want to avoid of pitching women against each other, isn't there? Can Emma hear me? Oh, that was, that's annoying. I think it's all gone silent from Emma Gannon's end of the line. Let's just try again. Oh, don't worry oh don't worry Emma good to have you back it's a profound relief to have you back to be perfectly honest although I could read out my shopping list I am tempted I've always got one to hand um I was just actually saying that what we really want to avoid is is the notion that you can pitch women against each other here because um lots of people rather enjoy doing that don't they to be honest it wasn't my best question ever they do that's a very common thing that people love

doing um still even with what women are wearing or doing and yeah i think at the same time there is a united front with this conversation because women are made to feel guilty for everything you know i'm being made to feel guilty for not having children people are made to feel guilty for everything. You know, I'm being made to feel guilty for not having children. People are made to feel guilty for having children, having careers. There's no escapism, I think, from that thing that's put onto women.

So yeah, I haven't got any pushback. I haven't had people thinking that I'm on a campaign trail for not having children, which I'm absolutely not doing. This isn't a journalistic investigation. I just want to write a novel and really put a lot of different characters in the book so that if you're not like Olive, you might see yourself in some of the other characters. Yes, and we should say that Olive is not, she doesn't dislike children. She just doesn't want to have any of her own. There's a big difference. And there's another character I like, Dorothy. Just tell us a bit about Dorothy.

So Dorothy is Olive's next door neighbour. She's in her 80s. She's quite from the outside looks like a plain, normal elderly woman. But she's actually when you get to know her a lot more glamorous than Olive thinks. And it turns out that she had a child and he moved to Australia when he was in his 20s and she hasn't seen her son for years. And I really wanted to show that it's not straightforward. Even if you have a child, that doesn't mean you're going to be close. That doesn't mean they're going to look after you when you're old. It's not a safety net, you know, having a kid necessarily. And I think I really wanted to put that in to show the nuance.

It's not just have a child and everything will be great. It's this is a lifelong journey and everyone has their ups and downs. Yeah. Emma, thank you very much indeed. Where are you speaking from? The line is exceptionally wavy this morning. So I just want to check on your geographical location. Are you far from me in central London? I'm in East London. Yeah, terrific.

Thank you so much, Jane. No, really good to talk to you. OK. Thank you so much, Jane. No, really good to talk to you, Emma. Thank you very much indeed. Emma Gannon, this is really good, this book. It's called Olive and it's a novel that features the central character of Olive. And it's all about her friendship groups. And so many of us can relate to the different journeys of the characters in the book. Well worth exploring.

And it will really strike a chord I think with many people listening right now. Now tomorrow on the programme it's unfortunate in a way but it's nevertheless a truth that we are talking about having children on the programme tomorrow. I'm discussing whether or not you are raising a gender neutral child and how that is for you, how you've gone about it and what the reaction has been from the rest of the family. So that happens to be a topic for tomorrow's edition of the programme. We do try to please our many, many listeners who don't have children and have never wanted them. And that's actually a good reason to talk about Listener Week, a good excuse to discuss Listener Week, which this year starts on August the 24th. And we'll be dedicating a whole week of programmes to

your ideas. So get involved, please. If there's something you really wanted to talk about, make sure you contact the programme via the website bbc.co.uk slash womanshour. And also later this week, making a change. If you want to change your life for the better over the summer, we're helping you work out

how you bring about change by getting the views of women with expertise and experience. Last week, we talked about how to change careers. That, I think, was on Friday's programme because I was listening in the supermarket car park. And on Wednesday of this week, how to be a good friend with guests including Jenny Eclair. And if you've got a friendship dilemma for us, a question you'd like us to discuss

on Wednesday's edition of Woman's Hour, you can ping us an email now via our website. Now, the American gymnast and multi Olympic medal winner Simone Biles was on the cover of American Vogue's August 2020 issue, photographed by Annie Leibovitz. But critics have said that photo shoot merely highlighted why there needs to be so much more diversity in the photography industry. Ola Adegoria is a photographer herself and Nazara Storm has worked as a commercial model and she's now moving behind the scenes a little bit. Ola, first of all, good morning to you. How are you? Good morning. I'm fine. Thanks for having me. Great to have a line, a clear line to you, Ola. Whereabouts are you talking to us from?

I'm in High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. You're a bit further away. Yeah, we're good on broadband here, though. Yeah, you obviously are. It's absolutely magical. I was only saying last week how much I miss meeting people. It would be lovely to get guests back in the studio. We really hope to be able to do that soon and meet up with people properly. But in the meantime, it's great to have you on the line. Thank you.

Tell us a bit about the images. Many of our listeners will have seen them. I've got a couple of them in front of me now. The one I'm looking at, Simone Biles, is in what I think is a sort of burnt orange swimming costume or leotard of some sort. And she's photographed against a kind of yellowish background now yeah what do you think of it i mean if you said this is for i don't know um sports illustrated or a weightlifting kind of that type of magazine i would absolutely agree but i guess because vogue is very much fashion and beauty and this is just not it um you know even just the posing itself it's very kind of strong man kind of posing um and i think that's what um a lot of people have

a problem with i think it's that you know we know that she's a beautiful black woman so why why can we not um why can she not be portrayed that way in this magazine, especially as it is Vogue? There is another cover shot because I think there were several. She's wearing, it's a red, I think it's a chiffon wrap dress of some description. It's photographed against a grey background and she's kicking, kicking her leg up. It looks amazing. But but again it's an image along the same lines isn't it yeah that's right yeah and and it's it's funny because it you know i literally looked at those pictures and i just wanted to just to twist her just to twist her

sideways slightly because it's very kind of crotch in your face um you know and it i mean it shows her talent and it shows um you know her body which looks amazing but it's just you know you know it's just not feminine it it really um like i said it's showing her talent but it's just not showing you know a beautiful image i take your point absolutely if this were for sports illustrated that would be fine uh but your firm belief ola is that a white athlete photographed for the cover of american vogue would not have been shot in this way no and i think there would be more like i said i think more softer lines i mean i know anna leavitt's work is very um you know kind of natural like she does a lot of these um as you can see on the background, you can see the back of the background.

So you can tell that she's outside and, you know, the backdrop is there. But I just feel that, you know, when Anna Leibovitch is photographing black women, I don't think there's as much detail into the feminine side of black women. OK, let's bring in Lazara. much detail into the feminine side of black women. OK, let's bring in Lazara.

You've worked as a model, Lazara. Were you ever photographed by a black photographer, woman or man? This is actually a really interesting question to be asked because I had to pull myself back and have a good old think. And I've been working in this industry for over 10 years now and the fact that I've had to sit and contemplate and run through every job I can't actually other than jobs where um are I don't know black hair brands or you know things that are catered for that sort of culture um I haven't had any photographers of any other ethnicity that i can think of other than caucasian white really um and that speaks volumes and the fact that i'm just sitting

here running through my whole career um it is quite daunting and a bit worrying and do you think the images of you would have been different had you ever been photographed by a woman or a man who was black? I'm not going to lie. We all have good shoots and bad shoots, whether you're in this industry or not, you know, with good photos. But I do think with the education of and understanding of knowing how to light, also working with your team with your makeup artist

they know how to you know the foundation colors um i often get asked to bring in my own foundation um whether that's because they don't cover the shades or they're not sure or just to save time i'm not sure but in in my head you should cater for all shades doesn't really matter um blue pink yellow blah blah blah yeah um and you should be able to come across as yourself in on camera as you would off camera um but i have come out quite washed out before a bit gray looking um i've got naturally curly hair they can panic a little bit or i've been asked to do my own hair that's quite a common thing it isn't every job but this is majority right unfortunately okay i mean it does it is to put it mildly is unfortunate um ola i guess

some people will have wanted well will have will have rightly celebrated simone biles simply being on the cover of american vogue but that's not enough is it no no it's not i mean like of course we're going to celebrate um that she's on the cover of Vogue. I mean, you know, when Serena Williams, funny enough, her images were very similar when she was on the cover. And I think she also was shot by Anna Leifovich, which is quite funny as well. But, you know, again, it was the, you know, the sort of very muscular, masculine images were the ones that were shown. Can we talk about the technical side of the photography

because the colours are somewhat muted on these Vogue covers that Annie Leibovitz has done. Yeah. The technical side of it, we can get quite nerdy here. What should she have done? Because photographing black skin is not the same as photographing caucasian or other sorts of skin it's it's not i do think that i mean you can have a you can have a style and a tone to your images and that can carry all the way through but when you you know you'll have your setup your light setup that you

love to do but if your skin tone of your subject is different then you're going to have to change your lighting slightly i mean you know you can bring in a reflector i'm sure you're thinking what is a reflector it's basically a bit of it's basically a bit of foil that you reflect the light onto the subject um where it's needed so because she's outside that would have been you know an ideal thing to do um yeah so I I definitely think that maybe um with other photographers and not enough goes into kind of the practice of photographing different skin tones well Annie Libivitz of course can't defend herself because she's not here um I have no idea she's on the line no well we wouldn't be able to get through to her even if she was to be fair

especially if she was in East London but I wonder whether she would say that this was all deliberate that perhaps bearing in mind some of the terrible stuff we now know Simone Biles had to put up with when she was on the American gymnastic team I don't know obviously

I'm not Annie Leibovitz but what do you think of that? Yeah and I'm sure she probably will say it was deliberate because when you look at her images, even of white women, they are very kind of related to the subject they're talking about. But maybe I'm thinking, if her story is grim, shouldn't we kind of go the opposite way to show... Do you know what I mean? I do. And there is something I didn't know,

which will interest many photographers listening, is this Shirley card. Now, can you define what a Shirley card is, Ola? So the Shirley card was introduced by Kodak, who were in the forefront of photography and they created a card like a colour card and it had basically your kind of your image your colours so it was kind of like the colours that we're going to produce in photography are going to relate to this person right and it was called a Shirley card named after the woman and it was a white woman

so obviously they went for the reds that were in her skin colour they would go for the you know the green yellow and blue undertones that were in her skin colour and that was how all the film that was made was produced the colour film so obviously there were black people that were obviously going to be photographed, but obviously they would not come out correct, because the film was only picking up the colours in Shirley's skin tone. This is all, I mean, I had no idea about this. And Lazara, presumably, this is something that's impacted on you throughout your working life? Unfortunately, slightly, yes, I'm not going to lie. It's a shame because, you know, it's become quite apparent that, you know, the diversity on jobs, whether it's in front of the camera or behind camera,

there's always this diversity bracket rather than being hired because you're right for the job. And when it comes to these cards, I do feel with myself, I don't want to say I'm only booked because I'm mixed race and I feel the diversity bracket, but that is a big reason for why I am booked. I'm not too dark, I'm not too light. My hair's not too afro, it's not too... So I'm on that fine line of understanding how to light me, I guess, in a way.

Right. Well, there's no need to apologise for that. You've every right to earn a living. No, I know. But I think over the years it's come, especially with the whole Black Lives Matter movement, with more dark skinned people, they assume mixed race people have it easier whereas mixed race people you know when it comes to tv there's only one a couple of roles for example for that diversity bracket so it's like we're all trying to fit for this role and really it's just we just be about you know if you're right for the look you're right on camera we know how to light you shouldn't be so difficult or complicated or something of just historic moments really because this shouldn't be the case nowadays no well you'd hope it wouldn't be well perhaps

things are changing um lazara thank you very much that's that lazara storm you also heard the views of the photographer ola adegoria now so many conversations some of them rather difficult started by the bbc drama series by micha, I May Destroy You. Not least the fact that on a night out when We know that the central character in I May Destroy You, Arabella, is left by a crowd of mates and is raped. She doesn't actually remember quite what happened, certainly at the beginning of the first episode, but things are sorted out by the end of this phenomenal series. Harriet Marsden is a freelance journalist.

Tony Tone is a public speaker and a podcast presenter. And Tony, I know you are often the designated driver on Night Out, aren't you? Yes, I am. That is correct. And is that because you're either a non-drinker or an exceptionally light one? I'm also a non-drinker. Right, OK. But that leaves you with a certain amount of responsibility, doesn't it? Yes, it does.

I'm usually the person who is looking after everybody on a night out. And what sort of things have happened to you and your friends over the years? I would say generally being in positions where friends have been drunk and just ensuring that they make it home safely or getting them in my car with the help of other people and making sure that they're safe in and around the venue because there have been situations where I've had friends who may be on the more intoxicated side and I've actively seen men try and take advantage of that and having to interject so those are just a few of the examples of what occurs sometimes on nights out. Right. OK. And Harriet, what about you? I hate to say, well, I'm going to ask anyway, have you ever been the person that needed looking after? I guess we all have at some point in our life. I would definitely say I have, but I think it's important to clarify that the only person

who's really responsible for a rape is the rapist so the idea that arabella's sexual assault is somehow partially her friend's responsibility because they left her is it's uncomfortably close to victim blaming it's like when biagio tells her it's her fault for not watching her drink yeah well it's it's devastating truth but it's it's the truth it's extremely uncomfortable the notion that you are in well, of course you're not in any way to blame for a sexual assault at no point. The only person to blame, as you correctly point out, is the person who carried out the assault. But interestingly, going back a couple of years,

I was thinking about this yesterday, the police in Sussex did a campaign around the idea of looking after your mates on a night out and they used the slogan, they tweeted it out, friends who play together stay together. On a night out, don't let your mates leave with a stranger or go off alone so harry i think the police at the time felt that was well intentioned but a lot of critics pointed out exactly what you've just said that this was suggesting that it was up to you to stop your friend being raped well that's nonsense right ultimately your friends your friends you should

all look after each other as much as you can and to the best of your ability but the truth is and it's one we have to face that women are at high risk of sexual assault and men are at high risk of assault and we're all at risk of harassment or assault on a night out and statistically speaking women are much more at risk at home in the private domestic sphere than anywhere else. So we can only do so much to protect each other. But at the end of the day, none of it would even be a consideration if rapists didn't rape. Yes, I mean, that's absolutely true. And again, a lot of the critics of this Sussex police campaign just wanted to know why the police didn't do a campaign telling men not to rape anybody, which would have which would have been a much better way of doing it.

But of course, the police probably felt they were dealing not with the perfect world, but the world in which we live. So, Tony, do you think there is a certain amount of additional pressure on women to look after their friends, to be a kind of mother hen figure? Unfortunately, there is. And as Harriet rightly said, there shouldn't be because the onus isn't on the women, it's on the perpetrators. But I do feel like as women, we are more actively aware of the well-being of our friends on a night out in a way that men may not be. So I'm not saying that men don't have their own concerns on nights out, they certainly do. I have a brother, I know that it's not always straightforward, but I feel like as a woman,

you are acutely aware of your own safety on a night out and your friend's safety in regards to sexual violence and in regards to assault. It is something that is at the back of your mind when you go out and you're thinking, oh, I hope this person doesn't follow me home I hope this person lets go of my friend when I try and grab my friend off him or I hope this person doesn't touch me inappropriately it is something that you

do have to consider and within friendship groups I do believe that women do take more of an active role to effectively kind of almost, we shouldn't have to, but almost protect each other on a night out. It's something that I've done with friends and they do with me. Tony Tone and Harriet Marsden. Here's an anonymous email. In my experience, if you drink on a night out, you have to factor in who you're with and how responsible or vulnerable they are at the time. It is risky if you drink too much, which can be easily done. A friend was separated from her friends when she wasn't allowed back into a club from the smoking area.

She ended up being gang raped in a nearby hotel room, completely drunk. She didn't press charges in the end because she was afraid of what could be said in their defence. She went into their room by choice in speech marks but didn't expect what happened. Well that is an absolutely horrific illustration of what can happen. I mean who amongst us has not been that friend who shouldn't have been left on their own. It's pretty desperate, isn't it, when you think about it? And it's certainly worrying for those of us with offspring who are out and about, as, of course, they are absolutely entitled to be in their teens and twenties.

Now, to your thoughts on other items in the programme today, Celia talking about asylum seekers. I've just listened to your piece about asylum seeker women. Please cover this important issue more. Well, to be fair to Women's Hour, we do discuss it. But Celia goes on, I worked as a counsellor with adult asylum seekers here in Liverpool for several years, and it was the most harrowing experience to witness their lives. I'd been sheltered from the awful cruelty people are capable of and my heart went out to everybody I spoke to. It was normal for women to suffer sexually and to be abused and raped and interactions with the home office and with lawyers often re-traumatises the continual refrain they don't believe me. Yes we've heard that before on this programme. To the subject of Simone Biles and her

images on the cover of American Vogue, photographed by the acclaimed photographer Annie Leibovitz. Lots of you have views on this and this emailer didn't want her name, it is a lady, yeah, didn't want her name to be given.

I used to work in magazines on picture desks. I value and completely agree with the issues around the need for black photographers. However, a lot of these issues are down to the editorial choices. The editor of US Vogue, with the creative team, will have chosen Annie Leibovitz, and there will have been a wide range of shots taken, with and right, of course. I mean, I have never worked for a magazine, but I imagine an enormous amount of thought and any number of conversations take place

before the magazine comes out. Another listener says, I totally agree with absolutely everything that Ola said about those Vogue shots. I didn't like them for all the reasons she so eloquently put forward. Then I decided that what I needed to care about is what the intelligent, I don't know what Simone Biles thought of those images. From Jenny, I'm finding today's discussion of the Vogue photographs of Simone Biles and diversity in photography in general very interesting. I think it's hugely important that there is a wide range of both photographers and subjects featured in magazines like Vogue, and how they are presented, both the technical and the artistic skills,

is a good subject for discussion. However, I was slightly concerned by the criticism of the images as lacking in femininity. Women have fought for generations to be recognised for their strengths, their skills and their achievements, rather than their beauty or their femininity. Let us not take several steps backwards while we're still trying to take so many forward. From Steph, the Simone Biles photos are showing a strong, beautiful woman. Don't confuse strength with not beautiful. Whether she's black or white, this is a different issue. Yeah, another good point. And from Nicola, I've just listened to that conversation about Simone Biles and the images.

McVean Etienne is a very well respected black photographer also Shambhala Wolfhard. I'm an actor and I'm lucky enough to have been photographed by McVean for a production I was in. And Nicola obviously really enjoyed the images that that photographer took of her. To Emma

Gannon and her novel Olive which features a character who is in her 30s and is child-free and happy to be that way. V on Twitter says, I'm a married 40-year-old without children. I have never wanted them. People still assume I am going to change my mind. The worst experience was someone describing me as childless at a work do. Such a cruel and unthinking thing to say. Well, quite. From Karen, my ex was adamant he didn't want children and I rapidly got used to the idea.

I am now 67. The most common issue was almost always, who's going to look after you when you're old? To which my answer was, is that a good reason to have children? They always shut up pretty rapidly after that. And from another listener, good to hear Emma Gannon talking about her novel. I'm a mother of three and it's absolutely the right thing for me. I have loved almost every minute. I do have a lot of support though, which is key to enjoying

motherhood, I think. Yeah, quite right. But I absolutely see the value in choosing not to have children. It should be a lifestyle choice. I know a small handful of people who have children and wonder whether it was the right choice for them. We need to talk about it being a choice rather than some kind of default position for women. There is a wonderful life to explore without them, something I will never experience, and that too should be celebrated. Yes, well said. I think that's absolutely true. If you've had children, you'll never know what a life without them would have been like. And I have friends without children and their lives seem pretty good to me quite often, it has to be said. Thank you all for taking part today. Really appreciate it. We rumble on throughout the

lockdown, of course, things getting easier, but no less challenging, I know, for many of you. So thanks very much for sticking with us. And the summer holidays provide a challenge all of their own, don't they? Something we will be discussing later in the week. Join us tomorrow. My guests will include the brilliant novelist Emma Donoghue, whose new novel The Pull of the Stars is about the Spanish flu epidemic and what it was like to be working in a maternity hospital in Dublin in 1918. That's tomorrow. Hi, I'm Jo Wicks and I'm just popping up to tell you about my brand new podcast with BBC Radio 4. It's extraordinary. It almost turbo charges you.

I'm really interested in the links between physical and mental health and what kind of ordinary everyday activities people do to keep on top of things. I keep fit because it's relaxing, because it absolutely relaxes my mind and that's so important. So in this podcast I'm having a chat with some of my favourite people to find out their tips and tricks to staying healthy and happy. For me, it's a full body experience and it's a total game changer. I think you're going to love it. Hit subscribe on the Joe Wicks podcast on BBC Sounds. Let's do this.

I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.