Woman's Hour - Lebanon latest, Fell running, Breast cancer poetry

Episode Date: October 4, 2024

The current conflict in Lebanon has forced thousands of women and children in refugee camps to once again leave their homes for their own safety. Kylie Pentelow is joined by the BBC’s Senior International Correspondent Orla Guerin to get the latest on the fighting between Israel and Hezbollah, and speaks to CEO and co-founder of the Alsama Project, Meike Ziervogel, to hear what impact it is having on women and children.Woman’s Hour listener Fran Blackett got in touch with us because she wanted to talk about fell running, and why she wants more women involved in the sport. She joins Kylie to explain what fell running is, why she’s so passionate about it, and more about her women’s running group, Run Like a Haggis.Are you in your 'protective hag' era? That's what the author and journalist Poorna Bell calls the position she finds herself in. Recently she’s written about feeling an increasing sense of protectiveness towards younger women. Poorna joins Kylie to talk about this stage of life and what it means to her.It's being reported that Melania Trump - the wife of former President Donald Trump - has expressed explicit support for abortion rights - one of the key dividing lines in the US presidential election. Her stance appears to be in sharp contrast with the position of her husband, as he enters the final leg of the US presidential race. Gina Yannitell Rheinhardt, Professor of Government and an expert in US politics at the University of Essex, joins Kylie to discuss.When Cathy Hollingworth was first diagnosed with breast cancer two years ago, she decided to document her journey through poetry. Now she’s publishing a collection of 22 poems called Getting It Off My Chest. She joins Kylie to discuss the poems and how they helped her get through her treatment, as well as what she hopes others can learn about talking to people with cancer.Presenter: Kylie Pentelow Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, this is Kylie Pentelow and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Today, it seems Melania Trump has spoken out in support of abortion, at odds with her husband's public views. With a month until the American presidential election, we'll be looking at why she said this now and the history of First Ladies seemingly having different opinions on this issue to their partners. Plus, we'll be talking to the journalist who says she's in her protective hag era.

What's that? Well, she says it's when you feel of an age where you want to protect younger women, particularly when they're vulnerable in public places. So we want to hear your stories on this. Have you helped a younger or indeed an older woman who you didn't know? And what was the response? You can text the programme, the number's 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. You can email us too through our website or send us a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444.

This is something that's got us all talking. And one example here from our producer Lottie, she said that she helped an older woman on a bus. And to say thank you, the woman gave her two wagon wheels, not one, but two. Also on the programme, talking to people who have cancer. The woman who underwent pretty much every treatment for breast cancer joins me to discuss just that, what to say,

and more importantly, what not to say to people who are unwell. But first, Israeli airstrikes on Lebanon are intensifying with massive blasts reported in southern Beirut. One strike hit just outside the city's international airport. Officials have told US media a key target of the strikes was Hezbollah's next potential leader, Hashem Sifri Yedin. His condition is currently unknown. Lebanon's health ministry says 37 people have been killed

in Israeli ground and air attacks in the past 24 hours. Now, we know that war and conflict can often disproportionately impact women and children and the current situation in Lebanon is no exception. I'm joined now by Micah C. Fogel, CEO and co-founder of the Alsama Project, a charity that works in Lebanon to educate women and children refugees. We'll hear in a moment what impact the current conflict is having on her work. But first, let's get the latest on what's happening with the BBC's senior international correspondent, Orla Gearing. She spoke to me a little earlier this morning and she started by telling me what the situation was like around her. I'm in the southern city of Tyre, which is about 12 miles from the border with Israel. Normally, this is a very busy

place. I've been here previously many times. It's actually a popular holiday resort for Lebanese. People would come here to relax by the sea. It's very, very different today. There's usually a population of about 23,000, 24,000. At the moment when you drive through the streets, they are completely deserted. Buildings are boarded up, shops are closed, restaurants are closed. When you drive around, you see very few other cars on the road. Even the headquarters of the local civil defence is empty and abandoned because they were called by the Israelis and warned that their building could be hit so they can no longer work from their offices. So this city has been turned into a ghost town. Some people remain, mainly elderly, also some

people who say they just don't have the money to flee and they don't want to wind up sleeping on the side of the road or joining many many other displaced people in schools and colleges which have opened their doors. One man here said to me this week if I'm going to die I want to die in my own home. There have been more developments as well overnight can you tell us about those? Well there's been a massive strike in Beirut, a very, very loud explosion, which was in an area near the airport. Now, that's the only international airport in the country. That area is also close to the southern suburbs, which are a Hezbollah stronghold.

There are unconfirmed reports that the target of this attack was the possible successor to Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah, who was killed by Israel in a massive strike recently. So this new strike may have been targeting his possible successor and other Hezbollah leaders. We don't have confirmation that they were the targets or indeed that they were there and we have no information at this stage about casualties but we do know from our colleagues in Beirut that it was an absolutely massive blast and terrifying for those who heard it in the city. We ourselves here in Tyre heard very loud explosions last night and again this morning. Now that's familiar, you know, it happens very, very regularly, but these blasts were bigger and seemed to be closer

than others we've been hearing in recent days. But regularly here, the windows will rattle, the building will shake, and there will be an Israeli airstrike happening. And if we look out to the hills, we'll see smoke rising in front of us. Sometimes the targets are also here inside the city. I should also say we have heard from time to time volleys of outgoing rocket fire. Now that's Hezbollah firing at Israeli positions across the border.

So the firing is in two directions, but certainly the Israelis have the biggest weapons. They have the airstrikes and they are doing massive damage to areas not just in the south and in Beirut, but actually all around the country at this stage. You're there to do a job, Ola, but is this frightening at times? I mean, we're in a very fortunate position in that we're a very experienced team. I'm here with colleagues who are local and who know the area very, very well. We have the protection of flak jackets and helmets, which local civilians do not have.

We have the use of an armoured car if we feel that's needed. And of course, we have a possibility to pull out. So, you know, in many, many ways, our circumstances are far removed from the civilians that we are reporting on. I think for them, it is an absolutely terrifying situation, particularly for those who have young children who are listening to explosions through the night and not knowing when the next one may come and not knowing if they will be the next target. And hospitals have been telling us here since we came that many of the dead and wounded are civilians, many are children. We have seen photos on social media now. Unfortunately, it is a grimly regular thing that you will see a picture of a young child who has just been identified having been killed. And the overall death toll is quite staggering since the 23rd of September. Now, that was the day when Israel stepped up its military campaign here. Prior to that, you may remember that since last year, there'd been basically a year of tit-for-tat exchanges taking place between Israel and Hezbollah, usually confined to the border area, broadly confined to military targets.

That has now changed. It was Hezbollah that began that attack on October the 8th last year. They started targeting the Israelis after the Hamas attacks on Israel, which killed about 1,200 Israelis in a single day. You mentioned the impact on children there, and we know that conflict often has a greater impact on women and children. What are you hearing and seeing from women in Lebanon? Well, before we left Beirut to come south on this most recent trip, we were seeing people sleeping on grass verges, families, old people, young mothers with babies, some of them sleeping in a square in the centre of Beirut, others sleeping on roundabouts.

And they were people who had been instructed by the Israeli army to get out of areas in the southern suburbs that were close to what the army described as Hezbollah targets. The problem for civilians here is that the evacuation orders are getting wider and wider. So, for example, in the last few days, the Israelis have told people to leave about 50 or 60 villages. Initially, it was areas near the border here in the south. The second batch of orders relate to villages that are north of where I am now in Tyre, meaning that they're deeper inside Lebanon, more towards the centre of the country.

So people are being told to get out of the south. It's not safe. If they had north to go to Beirut, it's equally not safe because of the airstrikes that are taking place there, which are now no longer confined just to the Hezbollah stronghold. buildings in the city centre. So for those in Lebanon who were being told to run, many people say to us, where to? You know, where is the safe destination? And for those with children, particularly young children, how are they getting the things that they need for them? Well, the Lebanese authorities have done their best to mount a response and a pretty quick one. When people started fleeing the south in large numbers,

the authorities immediately closed schools and universities. And we saw in the course of a single day how people started flooding from the south. So many people left. There was actually a 17-hour traffic jam to get from southern Lebanon to Beirut. Now that's a journey that in normal times would take an hour and a half or two hours. This is a very small country. But the same night we saw local NGOs already up and running inside schools, bringing huge amounts of water, bread, bedding, just stuff to get people through the first night. The problem is that families are now understanding that they could be living in these conditions for a very long time. There is no immediate prospect, in fact no sign at all, of a resolution coming for this situation. So we have

many families that are living in schools, living in universities and they at least have a roof over their heads. Others are not, if you like, as well positioned as that. They are literally having to fend for themselves. This is a country which is already struggling with trouble on many fronts, including an economic crisis. So for Lebanon, the struggle to gear up and to provide for these people is enormous. And it is appealing desperately to the international community. First of all, to try to stop the attacks by Israel. Second of all, to try to bring in sufficient aid. Lebanese officials are estimating that there are now 1.2 million displaced in the country. Now that's 20% of the entire population.

It's the BBC's Ola Geeren there. We're listening to that is Maika Seafogel, who is in Beirut. So Maika, you're the CEO and co-founder of the Alsama Project. Can you tell us a bit about what the project does? Yes, thank you for having me on your show. So Alzheimer's Project is a charity that is set up in the UK, US and Lebanon. And we run four schools in Lebanon in two camps in here in Beirut and the Borsh Beorashna camp and Shatila camp. Our students are illiterate refugee teenagers. They come to us totally illiterate. Within four months, they learn how to read and write Arabic, start speaking English. We have also now co-developed with the students a special curriculum that within six years makes up the 12 lost years. Our first cohort will be graduating from Shatila, Alsama, in 2026 to go to international universities.

That was the picture 10 days ago. So, yeah, that's the situation then. What's the situation now, particularly in a refugee camp like Shatila where Al-Samra is based? Yes. So as we all know, the bombs started falling. We had to close the schools in Borsh Barashna and Shatila. Borsh Barashna has been totally evacuated. Shatila is also very empty now. And our students, all of them are dispersed. As we heard just now from your correspondent, you know, some of them sleep in shelters, some of them sleep rough. A few have also made a very difficult decision of heading back to Syria, which is not necessarily a safer option. We have managed, however, to get in touch with most of them. We have immediately distributed some, you know, put money onto their mobile phones, because for our students,

the most important thing is actually the education. These are all young people who had never the chance of education. And what they say to us is, please, please, please keep the education going. So this is our aim. We've already started teaching now on WhatsApp. We are putting some of our students into safe houses so we can gather them together. We are also planning to open up sort of mini Alzheimer's centres where there is a cluster of our students. You mentioned that some people are even having to consider going back to the country that they were originally displaced from. I mean, what does that mean for people? Because obviously, there was a good reason that they left in the first place. Yes, let me tell you about Maram. Maram is one of our top students. She's now 17 years old. She

came to us as a 13 year old, totally illiterate. She was offered a scholarship to a college in the UK to join year 11 last year so within three years she made up 11 school years British school years her father back then refused to let her go unfortunately however he has now agreed when if she or when she graduates from Alzheimer in 2026 she will be going to university. She can go. However, right now, she's back in a village in Dar al-Zor, which is, yeah, it's in the north of Syria. She's desperate. Sorry, I'm always starting to cry when I say this. No, it's understandable.

She is, so to just uh picture her a bit more so she won a two months ago I think two or three months ago she won a Lebanon-wide essay competition and became the ambassador for a day shadowing the British ambassador here in in. And she is, and she's not the only one. We have other ones, Luai, Wissal. And at the moment, what they're doing, what she does and her sister, they sneak out in the middle of the night out of their home and sit under a tree

with their mobiles lighted in order to do the WhatsApp lessons that we are sending them because that is their lifeline at the moment and her sister and her um madam and mama are and we have some others are absolutely scared that now they will be forced into early marriage because there is no way they can now protect themselves and all they want is to continue their education. And this is what we are going to make sure is going to happen.

Maika, obviously, it's clear that the work you do is extremely important to you. And you're keen to stay and help as much as you can. But of course, it is a dangerous situation. Can you see an eventuality where you actually have to leave Lebanon completely? So, of course, a lot of people ask me that question, including, you know, my 30-year-old daughter. And I do wake up in the middle of the night, the bombings. My husband brings me up every morning, you know, says if I'm okay. But this is the most important work I think I feel I've ever done. Because here with Alzheimer,

we can make the world just a little bit better. Education is always the thing, the first thing that goes in war. My co-founder, Katria Hussein, a Syrian woman living in Lebanon, I remember her saying when we set up Alzheimer's together, she said, you know, the first thing that went when the war started in Syria was education. The schools closed and basically never opened up again. So a lot of our students, for example, they might have had one or two years primary school education back in Syria. Since then, nothing. They've suddenly seen and exploited the second chance that has come their way. And so as long as I'm useful here, I will stay.

Micah Sifogel, we wish you all the very best. Thank you very much for your time here on Women's Hour today. And of course, you can follow the latest updates on the situation in the Middle East on the BBC website. Now, we've been asking for your views on whether you have helped a younger maybe or an older woman in public. We're going to be speaking to a journalist a little later who has done just that. She calls it her protective hag era. There's some really

great comments coming in, actually. There's one here I just wanted to mention. Kate says, the protective hag term made me laugh. I went to Ibiza for the first time this year as I'm turning 50. Got tickets to a Calvin Harris gig as I thought we should go clubbing. Instead of dancing the night away, she says, I got waylaid in the queue for the ladies' toilets, checking on all the young girls, making sure they knew to cover their drinks with their hands so they couldn't be spiked, checking how they're all getting home and looking after the ones who weren't feeling well. That's just one of many comments that we've had. Please keep them coming into us and we will, of course, be talking about them a little later in the program but next have you heard of fell running perhaps you're a fell runner

yourself but for the uninitiated of us that's me it basically involves running off-road while climbing to a significant height like running up and down mountains runners travel between two checkpoints but often without a proper path to follow so this involves navigation as well. Women's Hour listener Fran Blackett got in touch with us on Instagram to tell us about her love of the sport and her hopes that more women will get involved. Well in 2022 tired of being one of only four female members of her fell running club in Durham she completed a running qualification and started organising women-only sessions which have been a great success and I'm delighted to say that Fran joins me now. So Fran welcome to Women's Hour just tell me how you first got into

fell running. Great to be here thanks so much for having me on. So I very first got into fell running, was down to my husband. After a childhood spent kind of outside, hill walking, camping, really active. Fell running was always something that other people did. Met Andy in 2013. He was already an established fell runner. And it's just gone from there. Yeah, I did my first uh fell race in December of that year and I was hooked tell me kind of about it are you it must be quite hard work I'm thinking running up and down mountains I mean I can probably just about do a flat 5k run but what what is it about it that that is so fun for you so for me bell running is a way to be free to uh go wherever the mood may take you uh to be self-sufficient to have the the independence and the confidence to go and do that and it's fun um i should probably say that we often walk the hills

okay there's quite a lot of walking um so yeah back at my end of the field i'm not an elite fell runner um i've never won a fell race um i just do it just for the love of it we hike up those hills as fast as we can we get to the top get a bit of a jog on if you can and then just have a great time on the downhills yeah well you'll know how great it is for our mental health to be outside as well you are alone um you can be alone can't you in quite isolated areas do you ever worry about your safety it's i i don't i have worked hard to develop the navigation skills i feel confident in those and that has that has taken time so when i first began doing it i wouldn't go out there alone i spent a lot of time with my husband doing it or going out with friends

and kind of building up those navigation skills and under the mountain safety skills to keep yourself safe uh in those environments and once you've done that um it's incredibly freeing it's exhilarating um and yeah yeah i just i just love it. Yeah, it's great. You have got to be careful. There's the mountain safety to consider. But yeah, anyone can do it. Gain those skills and yeah, anyone can do it.

There weren't many women in your club when you first joined. Only one particular race, only one woman ran the longest course. So what is it about it that's putting women off, do you think? So this is interesting. And I don't think we've got time this morning to delve into everything. I think putting on my women's only nights with my running club. So I've got two sort of projects that I'm working on. So with my running club, Durham Fell Runners, we have set up now Tuesday nights are ladies only nights and they've been a great success.

But it was talking to the ladies on this Tuesday night and encouraging them, have a go at a fell race or come out fell running. And they said, I couldn't, someone said, and it's just really stuck in my mind, I couldn't, someone said, and it's just really stuck in my mind, I couldn't navigate like you. And it was like, absolutely you can. So I think that's a big barrier. And I think there can be a perception of navigating with map and compass, that it on my navigation courses and we use the compass for the first time there's just always this beautiful moment where they're like oh my gosh like that's incredible I didn't know it was that straightforward so I think there's a barrier thinking that it's harder than it is

like I couldn't navigate like you I don't have magic skills and so I'm just really passionate about sharing that. Navigating is fun. And yes, you can navigate like me. Is there anything that you've kind of taken into the rest often just say to myself, you've got just keep stepping forward. If you keep stepping forward, you're going to get to the top of the hill. And it's's true and i think that applies to to you can apply that to all areas of your life if you just keep stepping forward you're going to get there just any advice for women who are thinking about foul running uh definitely give it a go i would say um gain confidence in your navigation. Don't go out by yourself unless you are with someone who is experienced or knows what they're doing. And with map and compass as well. There's lots of fell running clubs across the country. Just have a look up for a fell running club.

Don't be intimidated. Most of us walk up the hills. You're not going to turn up to your fellow running club and be made to run up that hill straight away. And yeah, just give it a go because it is just loads of fun. So yeah. And if you fancy coming to County Durham for some navigation courses, I will look after you.

So it's run like a haggis is my navigation courses. Fran, thanks so much uh for speaking to me today and thanks for getting in touch with us too with your story and just remember that if there's ever anything that you would like us to talk about on the program just be like fran and get in touch with us you can message us on social media we're at bbc woman's hour or find the details for our email and text number on our website too. And I can tell you that there are plenty of you getting in touch with our next story. And this term has got a lot of you talking. Would you describe yourself as being in your protective hag era?

Well, that's where author, journalist and public speaker, Pauna Bell, finds herself. She recently wrote an article in which she talks about being in her 40s and starting to feel a growing sense of protectiveness towards younger women. Not necessarily women she knows, but rather younger women out on their own. We wanted to know more about this. I'm delighted to say that Pauna joins me now. Just start by telling us, Pauna, what you meant about the protective hag era. So I was searching for a term to kind of summarise how I was feeling about my place in society.

So I'm 43 years old. I'm not yet in perimenopause, but I think the, there's a, there's sort of been a number of things that have happened over the last, you know, few months, whether that's conversations with people or just observations where I'm also very aware that my, whether it's life experience and so on is that I, I just don't really sit with the, the common experience of what it is to be a woman in your twenties and thirties, but neither have I necessarily moved up to the next stage of what being a woman is if we're talking about you know in very broad terms and I just wanted something to coin this sense of I would say protectiveness and support that I wanted to give or felt myself leaning into when it came to younger women, whether it's, you know, them talking about

their dating lives, I get asked about dating advice a lot by whether it's the women in my gym, or, you know, women I see at social events. But also that sense of when I'm on public transport, and seeing women, I would say, in general, particularly particularly younger women and um and just being a bit more switched on and cognizant of you know what their body language is like um whether it seems that they need I would say this sort of slight air of protectiveness around them so that no one really messes with them on public transport and I just wanted a term that that summarized that really that summarized that that sense of um I, care maybe that you feel towards other women. And so that's where I coined that term.

I'm not sure about the word hag though, because hag kind of means witch essentially, doesn't it? It does. But as I sort of say in the piece, I mean, for me, it's not something that I necessarily think applies to other women. I just found it really funny and I felt like it applied to how I felt about things at the moment and I and not everyone is going to love it I mean I had one lady say that she didn't really like the word you know she said it was used to belittle uh women but I've never really had a man or anyone else use it towards me in a derogatory um in a derogatory sense so I kind of felt like it was a relatively safe word for me maybe I'll feel differently in about 10 to 20 years however we've we've had so many comments on this um uh yeah people on twitter people messaging in um

this one here from Elizabeth on twitter she says absolutely I help younger women mentor them be their cheer be their cheerleader um offer them support. She says, I was a motherless teenager, so I act as other older women acted for me. It meant everything. And then just this one here from Carolyn, also on Twitter, who said, I once helped an elderly lady across the road when I was in my 20s. She said, thank your mother for me. Often it's women who help other women with things like push chairs on buses and trains. I'd always help if I could. The example that you cited, Pauna, you were just worried about another woman who was on a tube.

But at that point, you didn't need to intervene. Would you intervene, though, if something was actually happening to somebody? Would you feel comfortable doing that? I think it depends on, it's such an individual thing, isn't it? And it's not to sort of say, I don't think anyone should put themselves in a situation where their safety is threatened, or they feel threatened, because, you know, we all have to act within our own assessment of the situation. I would intervene. I would probably try and do it in a way that's like as non-confrontational as possible, because these situations can escalate in a way that none of us can particularly predict. But I would do the thing that came through on a lot of comments that women were leaving underneath this article,

which is to just pretend as if you know them. You know, if because a very common thing that happens is let's say if you look at you know a woman who's on a tube is someone will engage her in conversation and she really doesn't want to have that conversation but she feels like she has to just humor the other person so that it doesn't escalate and I feel like something that's a very light touch is just going oh hey I haven't seen you for ages. And then just almost like inserting yourself and separating that person from the conversation that they might be having. Anything else beyond that, that's very hard to say, because I think you have to consider your own safety within the matter. And, you know, I haven't had to be in a situation like that.

And I kind of feel like my viewpoint is maybe prevention around the stuff. So almost acting as a deterrent rather than actually having to escalate into a situation is probably the best approach. We've had lots of comments from people who have intervened. Lynn said, I once stopped the car on a busy road and intervened when a man was beating up a woman. Another car stopped and another woman came to help we kept the situation contained until the police arrived significantly many cars driven by male drivers drove past do you think there is a sense of this kind of that women can help other women in this situation to diffuse it i think there's the it's such it's such a loaded topic, isn't it? Because fundamentally,

women are still having to take on the burden of work that is the result of being in a patriarchal society where this behaviour needs to be fixed by men, first and foremost. And it shouldn't really have to be our burden to make other women feel safe, because they shouldn't have to worry about that in the first instance. But I do think that increasingly, I think we are just more switched on because we know that it has happened to us. I don't know a single woman who hasn't experienced this in some shape or form, which I guess if you think about it is a slightly depressing state of affairs because you have to ask yourself, why would a man not want to intervene?

Is it because they are worried about their own safety? And okay, you know, that's, that's, I guess, a fair question for them to ask themselves. But I also wonder if it's because they don't know what it's like to sit in an empty carriage and then feel the sense of dread. If you know, as a woman, I know that if there is a solitary man getting on an empty train carriage, I'm probably going to move to a different carriage where there are other people. And I don't know that men necessarily, I don't know if they're that switched on to that, you know.

I know that you've talked about your weightlifting in the past. Do you think the strength that you might feel in your body kind of empowers you? Not that you're going to use that skill, but just having that knowledge that you're going to use that skill but just having that knowledge that you're a strong person kind of inside and out with do you think that empowers you I think it does in the sense that so it's not even so much I would say weightlifting because I would say I had a very sharp sense of this when I started taking up martial arts last summer

and that I think it's martial arts that have really done that for me versus weightlifting, because it's just made me feel a lot more capable, a lot more sure of myself, especially when someone is getting into your physical space. But the way that I think it translates is it's about that. It's about something that I think that you give off, rather than it being okay, well, you know, I'm sort of like swaggering around looking for an opportunity to, you know, intervene into things, I think it's more about the confidence that it gives you within yourself. So I think when you look at someone's body language, when they're

walking down the street, like I can see the difference between the way that someone is holding themselves in a very small way versus when someone is kind of like, you know, has their shoulders out, has their head up, is just marching down the street. And that's what I would say it has helped with. Again, would I say that like every woman needs to do that or should have to do that? Absolutely not. I think you should be allowed to exist in whatever state that you like, unbothered and allowed to go about your day um but I would say that I don't know maybe it makes me like very unapproachable I'm not too sure because you know I just kind of try and hold my space as much as I possibly can and there's nothing about my face that invites someone to come anywhere nearer but it's it's we shouldn't have to feel like that right like you shouldn't

have to take up weightlifting or martial arts in order to feel like that about yourself absolutely um carolyn's got in touch with the situation that she had but i like this comment she says she's 60 and uh she says 60 year old hag although i prefer crone so maybe that's that's the thought for you porna yeah no i did i definitely mentioned that in the, that I'm not yet in the wonderfulness of crone era. So for me, I think hag is like an intermediary, like a kind of purgatory until I can attain that wonderful, liberating wisdom of the crones. We really appreciate your time.

Porna Bell, thanks so much. Thank you. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Okay, let's move on. We thank you so much for all your comments. We've had plenty of them coming in and I will try to read a few more out as we go on.

But next, it's being reported that Melania Trump, the wife of former President Donald Trump and current Republican presidential nominee, has expressed explicit support for abortion rights, one of the key dividing lines in the US presidential election. Her stance appears to be in sharp contrast with the position of her husband Donald Trump as he enters the final leg of the US presidential race. Well, Gina Yenitel Reinhart is Professor of Government and an expert in US politics at the University of Essex and joins me now. Welcome, Gina, to Woman's Hour. Can you just start by telling me what you make of the timing of this? I think the timing of this is really critical. No First Lady has ever contradicted her husband in the past while he was in office or campaigning for office, particularly not on this issue. I think that Melania coming out about this now, while the campaign is still going on, is really about trying to soften the image of Trump, particularly after his running mate, J.D. Vance, has made such inflammatory and misogynistic statements about women.

It seems that she reportedly takes this clear pro-choice stance in her soon-to-be-released memoir. Should we just have a listen to what she's said in her own words? Individual freedom is a fundamental principle that I safeguard. Without a doubt, there is no room for compromise when it comes to this essential right that all women possess from birth. Individual freedom. What does my body, my choice really mean? That was Melania Trump talking there in a clip that she posted on Twitter or Rex as part of that promotion campaign for her book.

So do you know just how strategic is this in terms of the votes that maybe voters that Trump is trying to convince? I think it's incredibly strategic. What's happened is that Trump and his camp are really afraid of losing women voters and losing voters who, by and large, agree with the idea of restricted trade, the protectionist idea that Trump espouses his immigration stance and things like that. And they are finding it more and more difficult to stomach voting for him, particularly given the comments that Vance has made and Vance's misstatement that Trump would veto or would sign any legislative ban on abortion at the federal level. So I think what they're trying to do is soften the idea of voting for Trump, make it more palatable for women who they're afraid are going to go to Kamala. And they still know that they may have a difficult time voting for Kamala as well.

And so they're trying to say, don't go or come over here. If you're not quite sure you want to vote for her, we're not as bad as you think. And Trump posted on social media this week that he wouldn't support a federal ban on abortion. In fact, yeah, he would veto it. There are, of course, strong feelings on all sides of the debate on this. And the polls are, of course, still very close, depending on which ones you look at. I wonder how much political influence you think Melania Trump actually has. I don't think she has a lot. And she rarely says anything at all. And certainly doesn't take, as you heard her words, they weren't overtly or openly saying, we need to protect a woman's right to abortion, or we need to protect reproductive rights. They were a little bit oblique. And one can infer what she means, but it does sound like they were tempered.

I think that what we're looking at here is just the ability to make people think, okay, he has a voice of reason. And it is based on the polls that most Americans believe that abortion rights should exist in some cases. And very few take the hard stance that Vance does. And I think that's what they're really afraid of losing. I mean, they've got Roe v. Wade, you know, our Seminole court case has been overturned. Trump can continue to say that he supports the states in making their own decisions. And that's consistent with saying that he would not sign a federal legislative ban. So really, this is just some basic softening and trying to tell people we aren't as bad as you think you don't have to leave.

A Republican strategist, Reena Shah, has said that the notion of Melania Trump trying to help her husband out doesn't track with the Melania we know, she says. So basically, she's, you know, saying it's too little too late. What do you make of that? Right. Well, I think that, you know, Melania hasn't done anything really to help him, except in the eyes of a very traditional view of the White House, which a lot of Trump supporters have, which is that a man should be president and his first lady should be elegant and sociable and supportive,

but not a whole lot of other things. And if she has some issues, it's okay if they're children or arts or something, you know, that are explicitly seen as feminine issues. That she has done. And because of that, people have thought, his supporters have often thought, oh, she's quite elegant. She's quite well put together. She's perfect.

She stands beside him and holds his hand and otherwise doesn't get in the way. And this is also counter to the visceral reaction to Hillary Clinton and and to first ladies who have had quite who have been given policy tasks and have had their own positions in the government. So I think that's where that's that's what she represents to people. If we look at previous Republican first ladies, some have gone on to speak against their husbands on abortion, haven't they? Yes. But always after their husband is no longer in office. also Nancy Reagan. They all said things about it and said it is said of them that they that these positions that they held were well known at the time within the White House as well. I think that none of them would have felt like they could crusade on the issue and openly oppose or overturn what their husband's platform indicated. But they all said personally, these are my views.

And I think it's quite possible that with some of the presidents as well, their personal views contradicted or were not exactly in line with the views they had to take in order to hold office. It's probably quite a hard question to ask. But there's, you know, there's not long to go is what four weeks or something to go. Do you think we're likely to hear more from Melania in terms of political sense? We do know that her memoir is being released. But do you think there's likely to be anything else? I doubt it. I don't think so. But the Republicans are very good at releasing a sort of bomb in the just a few days before an election that can really throw people's position or confidence in the Democratic candidate. It's possible that something like that would come out, but I doubt it would be her. And I don't think

she's got much more to say. It's a very interesting discussion, and I'm sure it's one that we will revisit. Thank you very much for speaking to us here on Women's Hour, Gina. Thank you. Let's just bring you in a few more comments. We've been talking about instances where you have helped strangers in public places, maybe an older woman or a younger woman than you, and you've stepped in. This one here says, listening to the show now, I'd like to say that older women have a lot of soft power that can be very helpful in difficult situations. I'm 68 and have stepped in to address difficult situations on the train with good results. This one from Sue's texted in. She says, I stepped in to help a woman who was being intimidated by three young men on bikes. I talked to the most vociferous one for quite a while and asked him to think if this was his mum, sister, grandma or etc.

They left. It was only afterwards that I thought about the risk. Thanks so much to all of you for getting in touch with us. Now, my next guest has chosen a creative way to record her journey through breast cancer. Kathy Hollingworth was first diagnosed two years ago, and she wrote poetry that documented what she was feeling and thinking. Well, now she's released 22 of those poems in a collection called Getting It Off My Chest, which details her experience of going through treatment and life in general. And I'm delighted to say that Cathy is currently cancer-free and joins me in the studio. Welcome, Cathy. Thank you for having me. So poetry, is that something you've always written? Never so determinedly as through this journey. I started, I should say,

I should say, the first thing I should say, I think, is that there are two things it's hard for people to hear. One, when you tell them you've got cancer. The other, which is possibly harder and scarier, you've been writing poems about having cancer. The other, which is possibly harder and scarier, you've been writing poems about having cancer. It's tricky. I've seen some very panicked expressions on people's faces. But I started, as you know, I mean, I've been through lumpectomy, mastectomy, lymph node clearance, chemotherapy, radiotherapy, and I'm on drugs now for a long time.

But as you say, I'm cancer free, which is fantastic. I started writing the poems because I didn't want to forget what was happening to me. You know, a lot, I was going through a lot. I was going through so much. I didn't want to write a diary. I was a bit too lazy to do that, actually, to do that consistently. And the poems were a way of allowing me to really focus on the words and to contain the experience, you know, absolutely in perfect precision. And it was words, you know, so many times people said things to me along the way, and the words stayed with me. I don't think there's a cancer patient who hasn't heard the words, I'm sorry, it's cancer. And that's, those are the words that start the poem Unlucky Numbers.

The other phrase in that poem, you're unlucky, when they discovered that my lymph nodes had cancer. And I, once that started, once I started feeling, oh, gosh, there's so much here. I started squirreling those words and phrases away. There's my oncologist said it was about a week after my first chemo. And I saw her and she said, you're looking very perky after what we've thrown at you. And I was a little bit. Yeah, you know, maybe I can maybe I can get through this. Maybe I can sail through chemo. But then a week after my second

chemo my hair's coming out in handfuls my nose is full of blood every morning I have a massive nosebleed my tongue is covered in ulcers my taste has completely gone everything tastes horrible not so perky that's when I wrote that so and cancer runs in your breast cancer has run in your family, hasn't it? Yes, my diagnosis came when I was 62 It was exactly the same age that my mother was when she was diagnosed with breast cancer She survived only for five years after that So it was a bit of a shock, obviously obviously for those two coincidental reasons and my mother-in-law also had breast cancer actually she was in this very studio I think talking to Jenny Murray on Women's

Hour about breast cancer she was a particular ambassador for the charity Breast Cancer Now in the early days so that's fact, we may get onto that, that the collection isn't just about sharing the experience, but it is about raising some money as well for cancer charities, of which Breast Cancer Now is one. Yeah, absolutely. That's where the money from many sales is going to. I just wonder if you can read one of your poems.

And it's the way people kind of talk to you and see you at the time. Yes. Well, I wanted to say something about language. And the poem I'm going to read is how I imagine, how I wondered when I was going through chemo. And you're not the person you were. You're somebody different. Physical changes have happened. You know, I was bald and all of that. But you are a different person. And I did wonder whether people

might be slightly frightened about coming to see me, whether they were anxious. What was I going to be like? Was I going to be actually dying, you know, in front of them? So that's why I wrote this poem. I've got something else to say about language as well but shall I read the poem first? so it's called On Thinking About Going To Visit Someone With Cancer Will she be bald? I hate a hairless head

I hope to God she has a hat on Will she be crying? Will she talk about dying? Tell me how long she's got until she'll probably be dead. Will she show me her scar, the place where bits should be but aren't? Will she be terribly frail and grey? Will she just look at me sadly and have nothing to say? No conversation, no animation, just cancer. Too scary. Don't think I could bear it. I'll probably just text. It's so powerful. It's interesting that you say that you were worried about what other people would be worried about saying. Yes, yes. I mean, one of the things that are, people have a tendency when they're talking to people with cancer, and it comes from the best place. It's a natural impulse to want to cheer them up, to be jolly.

Oh, great, you know, you've got through that. That's wonderful. You know, you're far down the line. And sometimes trying to respond like that, it undermines the experience in a way. I mean, I understand nobody wants you to feel rotten. Everyone wants you to be well. And that's a chivvying way of helping you through. But one of the things that was the most helpful for me when I was going through it was when someone said, you are having a rotten time. It is rubbish. You know, goodness me, I don't know how you're

coping. So maybe you didn't want, oh, it'll be fine. No, I don't know how you're coping. So maybe you didn't want, oh, it'll all be fine. No, I didn't want that. I understand where it comes from, but it's hard. It's a good way in. Wasn't there one situation where somebody asked you specifically about what your prognosis was? Yes, I didn't know this person very well it was after I'd had my surgery and before my chemo when I'd had a short haircut in advance of you know the idea that I was going to lose my hair which of course I did um and she called across the road to admire my haircut and I thought

oh well I'll tell her and I told her that I had the diagnosis and straight out she said oh what's your prognosis and I mean I was reeling it was as if she'd said when are you going to die um and so if I'm giving advice about what to say to people don't don't don't go with that what did you say I think I said well I'm not going to die just yet I you know I I didn't quite know what to say no one before or since has asked me that. When I was reading your poetry, I was laughing out loud a couple of times. Oh, good. I'm glad you said that.

Because obviously it's a really serious subject, but you made me laugh. And if you'll allow me, I'm going to read a little bit of one of your poems. I'm so pleased because I was going to say they're not all doom and gloom. So thank you. I'm not going to do it justice like you did.

But there's a poem called Hail Mary, where your aunt, who's Catholic, had sent you a card saying that she had a mass in her church set for your welfare. And this is the second half of the poem. It says, I was touched. It had been the 10 a.m. on a Thursday, admittedly, but still a church full of people I imagined praying just for me. I ran to thank her. Was there a big turnout, I asked. Did lots of people I imagined praying just for me. I ran to thank her. Was there a big turnout, I asked. Did lots of people show? Oh, she said rather scathingly, I thought, I didn't go.

I mean, honestly. That varies, doesn't it? Absolutely. I couldn't believe it. And I think, you know, you have brought a lot of humour. I think, you know, British people are brilliant, aren't they, in the darkest moments of making something funny. And you've done that in your poems. Was that a conscious thing? I can't help it. Yes, yes. Well, it helped me. It helped me to cope with it. You know, you can't go dark, dark, dark, dark, dark, and then still rise up. So you have to find a bounce back, if you like. And I think, I hope, I I mean one of the other things that I wanted them to do

the poems, obviously I want them to resonate, my main thing is sharing them, I'm wanting to resonate with the people who've done this, to say you know do you know, is this what your experience was, I hope these are resonating I hope you're saying yes that's what it was like for me

and particularly the people, you know, I'm two years post-diagnosis. I'm all that treatment's behind me. I'm not a big news story anymore. There are a lot of people, we're not big news stories, but we are still on our cancer journey. And we're still, you know, maybe the stats aren't on our side, but, you know, I wanted to speak to those people too, and use the poems a little bit for the people who don't know anything about what it's like to say, here's a bit of the nitty gritty. And maybe here's a bit of the vocabulary as well. This is this is what people go through.

You know, those all those appointments. I mean, it takes so much time to be treated for cancer. I wonder what it's like though now because it of course it is very personal um there I should mention as well there are there are photographs of you for for each poem and and you're reading them in the audio version but it is personal so what's it like now knowing that these are out there and people are reading about you? Well I you know I had no idea what was going to happen I've never shared apart from my poor family who've listened to everything and a few other

frightened souls I haven't shared them widely so when they was it choose I can't even remember whether it was what was the first of October because it's breast cancer awareness month and suddenly I'm getting these amazing responses. I have made a lot of people cry, apparently, which, you know, I hope I'm making some of them laugh as well. I'm sure you are. Cathy, it's been fabulous to speak to you. And just to say that Getting It Off My Chest is available

as an e-book to buy on Apple Books and on Amazon and all profits go to breast cancer charities. Now you can join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. Hair loss, something we've just been talking about, something that affects at least a third of women according to Harvard University. We'll hear the story of one woman, Katie, who has gone through it and from Michael Douglas, the renowned hairstylist who helps women experiencing it. And as the London Piano Festival runs this weekend, we'll be celebrating the work of female composers across the last two centuries. Thank you very much for listening. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

It's Kim Cattrall and I want to tell you about my new podcast, Central Intelligence, from BBC Radio 4 about the birth of the CIA. Secrets, lies, covert operations. The inside story from a real-life agency legend. Starring Ed Harris, Johnny Flynn, and me, Kim Cattrall. To hear Central Intelligence and many other great drama podcasts, search for Limelight on BBC Sounds. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.