Woman's Hour - Leeds Maternity Review, Forgetting birthdays, the term ‘rough wooing’, Ashley Dalton MP, Maimuna Memon

Episode Date: March 14, 2026

The health secretary Wes Streeting has appointed senior midwife Donna Ockenden to lead a review into maternity and neonatal services at Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust. The appointment came after a sustained campaign by bereaved and harmed families who said that she was the only one they trusted to lead the review into failings in Leeds. Donna Ockenden joined Nuala McGovern to discuss her new appointment as well as her ongoing review into Nottingham university hospitals.How would you feel if everyone in your household forgot your birthday? After a woman's social media post saying her family had forgotten hers went viral, Anita talked to the author Poorna Bell and the journalist Nell Frizzell about whether forgetting a spouse's birthday is simply a careless moment or the sign of something deeper.Dr Amy Blakeway, Senior Lecturer in 16th Century Scottish History at the University of St Andrews, talked to Nuala about the history of the term 'rough wooing', and why she thinks it’s time we stopped using it.Ashley Dalton, the MP for West Lancashire, announced last week that she was stepping down from her role as Health Minister to focus on constituency work and her health. Last year she revealed that her breast cancer had returned, and metastasised. This means living with advanced breast cancer everyday – it can’t be cured, but it can be managed. She joined Nuala to discuss her decision.Maimuna Memon is an actress, singer, composer, and playwright. Last year, she won a Laurence Olivier Award for her performance in the musical Natasha, Pierre & The Great Comet of 1812 at the Donmar in London. Maimuna talks to Anita about the real-life stories behind her latest show Manic Street Creature.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Annette Wells

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4, just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. Coming up, Senior midwife Donna Ockenden, who was announced this week as leading an independent inquiry into maternity failures, at Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust.

The MP Ashley Dalton, who's resigned as health minister as she continues to live with advanced breast cancer. Also, is it time to change or stop using the phrase rough wooing to describe the Anglo-Scottish Wars of the 1540s? My guest, the historian Amy Blakeway, thinks so. We'll hear why. How would you feel if everyone in your household forgot your birthday, including your husband?

This happened to a woman recently who posted about it social media and it went viral. And music from the multi-talented actress, singer, composer and playwright, Memona Memon. First, this week, the Health Secretary West Streeting appointed the senior midwife Donna Ockenden to lead a review into maternity and neonatal services at Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust. The appointment came after a sustained campaign by bereaved families who said that Donna Ockenden was the only one they trusted to lead the review due to her work on the Nottingham and Shrewsbury and Telford Maternity reviews. This all comes after a BBC investigation in January 2025

revealed the deaths of at least 56 babies and two mothers at the Leeds Trust over the past five years could have been prevented. While there was indecision from government over who would lead this new review, Donna said very publicly that she would take. the job on if asked. Well, Donna joined Nula in the Woman's Hour studio this week, who began by asking her whether she was trying to pressure them into appointing her. Absolutely not, but I had to speak the truth, and the truth was that there is always a way of making things work, and I had explained how I believed it could work, and I was very aware

and the families have been very eloquent in expressing their strongly held views that they wanted me to chair the review. Well, I spoke to two of the bereaved mothers when the review was announced back in October. That was Lauren Caulfield and Amarjit Kor Mataru, who so sadly both lost babies while receiving care at Leeds Teaching Hospital Trust. I want to bring a little to you what they said about who they wanted to lead the review. Anyone others in Donna will not be sufficient. You know, she has the independence, the experience and expertise, and she is trusted.

We know that she works thoroughly. We've seen a real-time change she's implemented in Nottingham. And we've seen that she provides that justice to families and holds the trust and the leadership teams to account. And there's nobody else, as far as I'm aware, that has that track record. Yeah, I completely agree. I think with Donna's methodology that she brings, there's a bit of a looking back retrospectively at what has happened to lead to failings. but real time change. So part of her work is having accountability,

having transparency and that real time change because actually no other person should experience what we've experienced. How do you feel hearing that? It's always an honour and a privilege to be trusted by families. My responsibility now is to make sure that the trust that has been put in me by the Leeds families, but also, of course, the Nottingham families who I'm still working with, is absolutely paid back that I continue to do the right thing,

that my very large team continue to do the right thing by both families in Nottingham and the families in Leeds. I'm struck by a couple of things you've said to me already. Simple words of like there is always a way. And the other is about finding that way. Lauren and Amarjit talk about the methodology as well. How do you do it when you go into something that is such a complex web like failings within a maternity system.

So I would think the first, the golden thread that goes through all of our work, the Ockenden Review Team's work, is about listening to women and families. That means fathers, that can sometimes mean women's mothers and women themselves. The second essential aspect is listening to staff on the ground. You may know that we've got well over 800 current and former Nottingham staff have come forward to participate. in our review. And then I believe really strongly about multi-professional working in perinatal care. So that's maternity and neonatal care. My team is over 150 doctors, nurses, midwives, all kinds of specialities. Maternity care is not an island. It isn't something that just

midwives and obstetricians can play a part in, particularly these very complex reviews. So I think it's putting all that together and putting women and family voices at the heart of everything. Families have had to fight so hard and in fact, with people that I've met that have lost babies,

they thought they were isolated cases, then they found each other through Facebook groups, for example. But some are wondering, you know, why have the families hot to battle so hard? Why didn't staff raise concerns earlier? Because obviously,

they would have been there when these tragedies occurred. How do you understand it from a culture point of view? There are very significant cultural issues of concern across many services in perinatal care. It is true to say that women and families are not always listened to. They often feel, and they are, not just feel, they are often disregarded, they raise concerns,

those concerns aren't acted upon. So there is something fundamental. that needs fixing at the heart of maternity care. Why do you think they're not listened to? I think that there's, again, a multiplicity of reasons, not one size fits all. There is, in many areas, a culture of, well, we know best. No, stay at home. You're not in labour. You know, if you can talk through that contraction, you know, go and have a glass of cold water.

lie on your side, ring us back in an hour. And so many of those cases end in tragedy. So not listening to women. And conversely, staff on the ground telling me, because I speak every single day to families and staff on the ground that they are not listened to when they are raising concerns. It's very illustrative, I feel, those examples that you gave. And I'm sure it will resonate with a lot of people who are listening.

But how do you change that? that culture, and I'm talking about a huge amount of staff, to change, to become more humble, I suppose, is the word I would use, I think, if in fact it's coming from a we know best. One of the things that I've wondered about and I've raised on a number of occasions is that as women and babies, and therefore their families are discharged from maternity care earlier and earlier, as health visiting as a profession who, you know, were the people that took over, from the community midwife and provided seamless care for mothers and their babies. As those two professions are under greater strain, I think now that often maternity care,

perinatal care, do not know, do not hear and see the examples that I do. And I regularly report back to trusts and say, are you aware what happened to this woman and her baby? you know the outcomes? Do you know what this family is living with? And quite often, not because people don't care, but I get blank faces and they go, well, no, because they're kind of discharged from us by 10 days or, you know. So I do think that the safety net, the support, the systems, the structures that I grew up with as a young midwife have all but been eviscerated. It's interesting. In 2022, the Occadon report was published looking at. at failing maternity services in Shrewsbury and Telford.

You told us it made headlines that England's maternity services were not safe without the following off your actions. You don't say recommendations. You say actions. Were those actions taken? No. They were partially taken. And I think this is another issue to add to the complex jigsaw, that is, maternity, perinatal care.

Sadie Javid, who was then the Secretary of State, and, you know, he gave me a significant amount of his time in listening and understanding what had happened in Shrewsbury and Elford, and I'll always be grateful for that. He fully endorsed all the findings in the report and my belief remains that if he had stayed, we would have done much better. But in the end, what we had was a revolving door of multiple secretaries of state over the next year. We'll all remember that. And interest got lost. So I do think that an absolutely fundamental issue now is that there has to be a process put in place

and this won't just be across maternity, it won't just be across health, it'll be across government that there needs to be when a government accepts findings and they need to accept them within a timely way. What's timely?

I would say for a report like Shrewsbury and Telford they were accepted on the day but I would say within two months or three months, you know, within a and then they need to be monitored for the actions that they take. So many excellent reports have been published on perinatal care. Let's say since 2010, excellent reports that would have made a difference, but they get kicked into the

long grass. That's the first thing. And then when they are accepted, nobody seems to take the responsibility to see those actions fully implemented. Tell me about the scope of this review that you are going to now undertake as many of the parents will be happy to hear for Leeds Teaching Hospitals Trust. So we will be working on what we call the terms of reference. Think of that as the scaffolding that holds up our building over the coming weeks and months. As far as I'm aware, the cases will go back to 2011. So it's a 15-year review.

what remains to be decided are the main groups of cases that we will consider. And I can't speak clearly enough about this. Families have to be able to co-produce those terms of reference in order for them to see that they've got the answers that they've waited so long for. What do you mean by that? Absolutely, actively involved and satisfied that the terms of reference meet their needs and their requirements. Having heard what the Secretary of State said yesterday, I'm absolutely confident that he understands that and he agrees with that principle.

And what sort of time scale are you looking at? Currently, and again, I will stress that nothing is cemented down yet. I think we're looking at a time scale of around three years. But what I will stress with the experience from Nottingham is that the trust won't be sitting around waiting for learning to come out in a great big huge Ockenden report in three years' time. We have a methodology where I meet with the trust in Nottingham very, very regularly, and they put in place almost the interim findings that I'm hearing from families,

from their own staff on the ground as well. And I was also to ask you about Nottingham, so that to let people know was the largest review of its kind in NHS history with about 2,500 cases being examined. and the final report expected in just a few months in June. Do you feel you're on track? And you've mentioned some interim recommendations or some interim findings taking place.

But is there anything you can tell us that you would like people to know about that review as the report is about to happen? Absolutely. So I wrote out to Nottingham families yesterday to absolutely reassure them that we are on track to publish. the Nottingham report in June.

We don't have a final publication date in June yet because that's decided by the Department of Health, but we're working with them on that. Although there remains a lot to do in Nottingham, it's about turning around a huge oil tanker of a service. Nottingham Trust is

making some significant progress. But when the current chief executive, Anthony May and the chair inherited, took on the trust in 2020, it had a hell of a way to go, but progress is being made. Is it the same issues you see whether it's true as retail for it or Nottingham? There are similarities and differences. Both of them had a culture of not listening to their communities.

When I first went to Nottingham on day one of the review, first of September 2022, I had to make my own contacts with the very diverse communities across Nottingham and Nottingham I asked the trust for advice and they couldn't really give me any advice. So I just got on with it. And, you know, we've now, I think, handed over to the trust. While we're still continuing to build community relationships and relations, we've given the trust a lot of guidance and support in reaching out to their own communities. And we're continuing to develop that as a legacy from the work that we've been doing in Nottingham.

And the top line from Nottingham at the moment? They've had a number of successes, particularly with recruitment and retention of midwives. However, there remain chronic problems, I think, with some staff behaviours. But I would commend staff for the really positive way in which they've engaged with us. What sort of behaviour? So more junior midwives are still reporting to us that there are. are senior staff who have instilled a culture of fear and some staff are frightened to work with individuals. There are still issues that need sorting out in Nottingham. How do you change that

culture, though, if it is, for example, a culture of fear or a fear of speaking up? I think that leaders have to take a very, very clear and strong line on this is not Nottingham. We will not tolerate this and there is more work to do without a doubt. Donna Ockenden there. The Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust have apologised to families whose babies died or were harmed and said were absolutely committed to working openly, honestly and transparently with Donna Ockenden and the review team and with families who've used our services. And they say significant improvements are already underway in our maternity and neonatal services following reviews by the Care Quality Commission and

NHS England. The Department of Health told us that since July 2024, they've invested over 131 million pounds in 122 infrastructure projects across 49 NHS trusts to improve safety of neonatal care facilities. The Secretary of State has ordered a national maternity investigation chaired by Baroness Amos. The aim of this rapid, independent investigation is to develop one set of national recommendations to drive improvements in maternity and neonatal care across England and reduce inequalities in the delivery of these services. Now, be honest, how would you feel if everyone in your household forgot your birthday? Well, this happened to a woman recently who posted about it on social media.

She wrote, well, there's one more hour left in this day and it's become clear that my husband and kids forgot my birthday. I thought they were being quiet because they'd planned something. I was wrong. Yes, everyone in her household forgot her birthday, including her husband. So, how much does forgetting a birthday matter in a relationship? Is it simply a moment of carelessness, or does it speak to something deeper? Well, I was joined to discuss this by authors and journalists Purnabelle and Nell Frizzell.

And I started by asking Purna, is it simply a moment of sloppy oversight, or is there something more going on? I think context is really important. And I think that, you know, yes, you could say that it's people forget things sometimes. There are things going on. I think in this particular story, it was the response that her husband had when he remembered. And he didn't call her. He didn't say it to her in person. He sent her a text saying, sorry, we couldn't do more.

And the internet just exploded because they were like, how can you do more when you did nothing? So I think that most people were just really taken aback by that. And I personally do think it is the symptom of something deeper. something more, having spoken to women, you know, let's say on the side of divorce, this hit a huge note with them. They said that it was one of the, you know, fourth horsemen of the apocalypse when it came to divorce. And I found that was very interesting. Sorry we couldn't do more. It was the we that troubled me as well.

I know. You and the kids are not on the same level. You're an adult. They're your children. You're meant to be an equal partner in this relationship, surely. Now, just After midnight, the woman who posted, she decided to bake herself a birthday cake and leave it on the table for everyone to see in the morning. And her teenage children were apologetic. We've just heard that her husband decided that the right course of action would be to send this text message. Sorry, we couldn't do more for your birthday. Would you ever bake yourself a birthday cake? What's your take on this?

I like to think I'm fairly passive aggressive, but even I wouldn't go that far as to bake myself my own cake. I'm actually someone, I know this is an unpopular opinion. I think cake is exceptionally overrated. I think it's an infantilising snack. I don't care if I never have another birthday cake ever again. So this wouldn't bother me at all. And I also think the idea that you should be celebrated on your birthday is completely wrongheaded. And actually, the person who should be celebrated, honoured, remembered, thanked, maybe even baked for, is the person who gave birth.

However they did that, you know, whatever birth looks like and whatever involved in however long ago it was. So on my birthday, for an instance, I give my mum a card. because really, if we're honest, all I've managed to do over the last 41 years is not get sort of involved in a lethal sort of incident with my own bedding or fall in a skip, whereas she went through this like cataclysmic life-changing physical event and then raised me, which must have been no easy task.

So I sort of think the idea that you should be given a cake on your birthday is wrong and the person who should be given the cake if cake is needed, but let's be honest, there's also cheese and wine out there, is the person who gave birth. I like how we're hating on cake for a moment. Yes, cheese and wine, suitable alternatives. But I'm going to bring poor an eye on this because it's more the fact that her partner, the person that she's spending her life with who she's raising these children,

that guy forgot. And what's the significance of that one person not recognising that very important day? I think that it's not just Rebecca who posted this blow-by-blow account, right, of her family getting a birthday. It's also a lot of other women who have chimed in. is to say that for you, if your entire family forgets your birthday and especially your spouse, you've become wallpaper. You know, you are someone who is just seen as a means of providing service,

you know, whether that is making an effort for other people's birthdays or cooking or doing domestic labor or whatever it is. And someone said, which I do get the point, which is, you know, let's just say you're not a big birthday person and you don't want a big fuss made out of you. I can completely understand that. And also, you know, I don't think it's fair to expect the same level of reciprocity in what you might do for someone. So if you throw a massive party for someone, some people are just not good with that kind of thing.

But I don't know a single person who doesn't, even the bare minimum of being wished happy birthday on your birthday. And anyone who says otherwise, I think is in the vast minority. Like I've been to, let's say, you know, classes in my gym where there's a middle age guy. and at the start of the class, our coach says, oh, and now it's, you know, Kevin's birthday. And Kevin is just giggling away. Like, Kevin's not going, oh, you know what, I'm too old. I'm like too big for birthdays.

Like, there is no person that doesn't at least like it to be marked. And then, okay, fine, you move on or whatever. But I'm so sorry, Nell. I'm staying in a hotel where they give you free cake at 3 p.m. And I think it is, honestly, out of everything that they could have done, this is a thing that has made me decide to come back to this hotel. So I'm doing it's a cake. Unfortunately.

Nell, isn't this about the value within a relationship and within your household? Well, it makes me think of, I think it's Alan de Botton has this argument that being in love is not the same as being psychic. And loving someone is not the same as having either a photographic memory or being able to read the desires of another person's heart. And I have to say, you know, as a 41-year-old now, if I want a cake, I'm going to ask for a cake. I'm not going to wait for a cake and then be upset when it doesn't arrive. and I think that is a lesson for sort of throughout wider relationships. And maybe exactly like Gordon is saying, this is a horseman of the apocalypse.

But one way to head off those horsemen is to be clear about your desires and what is important to you and how you feel love. And if that's gifts, then you owe it to your partner and children to appreciate that and plan that and give you. You have to tell them that that's what you want. And if you're not someone who's interested in cakes and gifts, which I'm afraid I'm not, then you can communicate.

that, but you want to be recognised in other ways and perhaps on other days. Would you expect more from your teenage children on your birthday now? I think from my own children, on my birthday, I just want to have sleep. That's all I care about. And I don't really care about cards. I don't care about presents. I'm not particularly sort of materialistic in the tangible sense. I, but actually what I do on my children's birthdays is I tell them the story of how they were born, which is... In graphic veto? Absolutely. Rip, raw. fluid-ridden escapade of, you know, pain, joy, beauty, euphoria.

And I sort of think that as a ceremony means more to me than blowing out candles and opening presents. I think it's really important that we talk about birth and motherhood as an ongoing process as a physical thing. And the communal activity, it's exactly like born is saying, it's not a woman should not become the sort of white noise of efficiency. Yeah. But isn't the point now that you should,

have to remind like when we first discussed that we were going to do this like I am someone who forgets people's birthdays but my mum reminds me I'm just going to fess up and put myself out there right but we're talking kind of cousins aunts your partner isn't the isn't the whole point that you shouldn't have to remind them and it's about feeling sort of noticed not even cherish just no I acknowledge everything that you do in the in the household for the children for me and in And I've just remembered you on this day today to say, well done. You're great. Yes, wouldn't that be lovely?

But every time I have to fill in a form where I'm asked for my partner's date of birth, I have a cold shiver of horror because I genuinely don't know it. I don't know it. Sometimes I forget my own children's birthdays. I definitely don't know my extended families. It's just not something that has lodged into my memory. Fair enough, then. You can't expect them to remember yours, I suppose, if that's the case.

Porna, we've got to go back to the response on this on social media. Huge. It received millions of views. well over 10,000 comments suggesting that it might have resonated with people. It resonated hugely. It just triggered such a passionate response in people. And I think that, you know, wishing your spouse happy birthday isn't like a reward or to say, I see you.

I think it's the bare minimum. I felt like I was almost going mad reading a lot of comments where, you know, the way that people were describing it. And I just thought, you're not even talking about someone putting on a party. I mean, I hate receiving gifts, for example. Me too. But I love a card. I don't. I mean, who doesn't look at the cards?

What do you do with them? Just put them in a box to, oh, anyway. I would venture to say that the people who are giving you the cards are not writing good enough messages. Because for me, I feel it's like a mini letter of how someone says that they appreciate me or what I mean to them in my life. So that that is something that means something to me. But again, if they don't give me a card, I'm not sort of having a secret tally of like, you know, revenge. But I just feel that it was a signal, it was a canary in the mind. that our expectations are so low that we see someone, our spouse, our partner,

wishing us happy birthday as an add-on. And it's not an add-on. Like, it's in the basic package of relationship, surely. Journalists Purnabelle and Nell Frizzell. And Purnas' new book, She Wanted More, Reimagine Your Future and Live By Your Rules, is out now. If I say the words, rough wooing, what do you think? Where does your mind go?

Well, we all know what rough means, and most of us know what the word wooing or to woo means. It's a term that appears on school curriculums across England and Scotland and is used to refer to a particular period in our history. But Dr Amy Blakeway, senior lecturer in 16th century Scottish history at the University of St Andrews, thinks it shouldn't be. She joined Noola this week and she began by asking her if she could explain a little bit more about what rough wooing means exactly.

So there's two meanings. We'll start with the historical one and then talk about them more. cultural one. So it's used to refer to a period of conflict between England and Scotland, between 1542 and 1550. And this was initiated because Mary Queen of Scots became Queen aged six days old. Her great-uncle, Henry the 8th, so, oh, fantastic, I can unite England and Scotland if this baby girl married my son, the future Edward the sick. The Scots said thanks, but no thanks. Just cut a very long story short, and this initiated the war. So the term rough-wewing has been used by historians to an English invasion of Scotland, and that was an extremely bloody conflict. But also it was something

that could happen to a woman. Absolutely, yeah. So alongside that historical context, there's also this broader cultural meaning. That broader cultural meaning is something that's quite distressing to think about. The type of rape or other type of assault that most often are rape, perpetrated on a woman as a means to force and effect a marriage. And that sort of meaning that remained remarkably culturally consistent, actually, from the 17th through to the 19th centuries. So a weapon of war? Yeah, a weapon of war, but this is something that could also occur

in an individual intimate relationship, as it were, between an individual man and a woman. So rape was certainly used as a weapon of war, but a rough wing could just be used as a rape to force a marriage. And I think the cultural context there that's important is that the shame attached to rape, the distress that women would feel following it could be used to force this marriage. And in a culture where there would be a great degree of victim blaming, the subsequent marriage would use to kind of make the rape better as a solution, as a resolution to it.

And also as a woman, if known to be raped, would not be marriageable, I would imagine in those times. Absolutely. But let us go back to Mary Queen of. Scots because she was raped, which is an issue that some may or may not know, which would have the term probably would have been used at that time of rough wood. Yeah, so the situation for Mary Queen of Scots is something that this is one of the most sort of famous rape incident in the 16th century, is probably the most famous one. And actually, it's something that's quite difficult to trace in the historical record.

But yeah, as an adult, Mary, so the woman over whose body, these are. Wars were fought, was raped by one of her subjects, the Earl of Bothwell. He kidnapped her while she was riding. He assaulted her, took her away to Dunbar Castle, where she was raped. And subsequent to that, again, the shame of having had the experience of being raped, forced her to marry him. And we've got really clear contemporary evidence that that is what went on. A rough wooing, of course, seems much milder than the term rape. And you want us to look at these terms and remove them? Yeah, that's right. Basically, I think when we're thinking about this term rough wooing, it's part of a wider problem,

I think, in our language in terms of how we talk about sexual assault, right? There's a lot of extremely unpleasant phrases that are used either to minimize the nature of violence against women, women, very often sexual, but it could just be other kinds of violence, or to shift blame towards the victim. So we think, for example, about the modern rough sex defence, the idea that a woman asked for it. The phrase rough wooing is really on the same spectrum of discourse. It shifts blame away from a victim and away from the perpetrator rather, sorry, and towards the victim. And it minimises the violence, it occludes the violence. And so it's really quite an evasive slippery term. And just on the rough sex defence, just a bit more detail on that. It's a controversial

legal argument in the UK where defendants claim a partner's injury or death resulted from consensual rough sexual activity. There has been recent legislative changes, particularly under the Domestic Abuse Act of 2021, which have curtailed its stating consent, cannot be relied on upon for serious harm of death inflicted for sexual gratification. So some might ask, as you want these terms changed for both what has happened, rape, or indeed the naming of this particular war to change. Are you in danger of applying today's context to history and in doing so erasing history, albeit a complicated one? I'm so glad you asked that, Nuala, because actually the term rough wooing when it's applied

to the wars of the 1540s is itself anachronistic. People say, it was used at the time, but it absolutely wasn't. It first emerged about 160 years after the war finished and emerged in a really interesting context in the debates surrounding Anglo-Scottish Parliamentary Union, when this violent past became so problematic for people who wanted union. And so this term rough wooing was useful because people were used to thinking about politics in sort of making it domestic and thinking about it as though it were a family, right? The king is the head of the family. The king's the head of the family. The king's the head. head of the household. So applying this term that had obvious connotations about gendered

relations, something that smoothed over violence on a path to a peaceful union, a word that she's both to describe the parliamentary union of England and Scotland and a marriage, right? It allows all these ends to be tied up together. So actually, by getting rid of it, we're being less anachronistic. Rape, I imagine, is the words you would use when it comes to the action between humans that has been called rough wooing. What would you use for that particular war? Anglo-S Scottish Wars in the 1540s. It's not catchy, it's not glamorous,

but war isn't catchy or glamorous either, or it certainly shouldn't be. I mean, usually with issues of history, there will be pushback. Some people don't want things changed. Have you come up against that? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've been really fortunate when I've presented this to other historians,

my colleagues, they've had a chance to look at the footnotes and they found the argument and the case. persuasive. But when I've talked to community history groups, there have been some people who've said, oh, you know, the term roughwing is quite familiar. So I've dug a little deeper into that, but it seems that actually there's also a group of people who say, well, actually it's quite opaque. I don't really know what it means. It doesn't sound like a violent war. It's quite confusing. And so it actually inhibits comprehension. Dr. Amy Blakeway there. And you can see more of Dr. Blakeway's research in a new exhibition at the Wardlaw Museum in St Andrews, War

destruction and reform, the early years of Mary Queen of Scots. It's on until the 20th of September. And if you've been affected by anything you've heard in this program, the BBC Action Line has links to support. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid.

I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Still to come on the program, music from the multi-talented actress, singer and playwright,

Memona Memon. And remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week, all you need to do is subscribe to our daily podcast. It's free via Berman. BBC Sounds. Now, Ashley Dalton, the MP for West Lancashire, announced last week that she was stepping down from her role as health minister to focus on constituency work and her health. Last year, she announced that her breast cancer had returned and had metastasized. This means living

with advanced breast cancer every day. It can't be cured, but it can be managed. Ashley joined Nula this week, and she began by asking her, what made her decide to step down as health minister? So I've been on chemotherapy for about nine months now. So I was being a health minister, you're still an MP. Yes. It was almost like doing two full-time jobs simultaneously. And I was on chemotherapy. And one of the big side effects of my chemotherapy is fatigue.

And, you know, it develops over time. You know, it didn't sort of happen instantly. But it got to the stage where I was thinking, actually, I'm really struggling to find any time for me. But also I was actually stood at the dispatch box doing the oral statement for the National Cancer Plan. And I was talking about how it's really important that people with cancer have care as well as treatment. And I thought, hold on. I'm not really getting any of that.

You know, literally I pop the pills and I work 12 to 14 hours a day. and then I go to sleep. And that's not sustainable. Care as well as treatment. Because you led, for people who aren't aware, the National Cancer Plan and on the Parliamentary Committee that worked on the rare cancers bill, which is set to become UK law.

And you mentioned there that it's like having two full-time jobs. But actually, I think you have another job because you're also a carer. Yeah, I mean, less so now my dad died towards the end of January, but my mom's still alive. She's 91 this month. And they live with us. So mom and dad have lived with us for about five years.

And mum's quite elderly. She doesn't need as much care as dad did. She doesn't really need personal care the way he did. But it is about, you know, we live together and it's about being able to be there for her as well, particularly now because she's on her own. What do you have around your neck? I'm seeing courage calls.

Courage calls to courage everywhere. Yeah. Do you want to tell me a little bit more about why you wear that if not on your sleeve on your chest. Absolutely, yeah. So, you know, her name's completely just gone out of my head. It's okay. Is it where the quote comes from?

Yes, absolutely. So it's a Labour politician, suffragist, and her name's completely gone out of my head, which I'm furious about. But that's chemo brain for you. Millicent. Yes, Millicent. Of course it.

So, and it basically means, you know, she's a courage cause to courage everywhere, which is about show courage and it will inspire courage in others. And that's kind of like, you know, a motto really for women, particularly in politics. And I suppose what I've done is a bit of that, actually. It's a very courageous decision because it's something you have worked very hard for. It's a huge achievement to become a minister. But it takes a lot of courage to step back.

Yeah. And I think, you know, it is a brave thing to do. And I suppose, you know, that's the thing that's really important to me. A lot of people think, oh, people think, I'm so sorry you've had to do this. No, I didn't have to do this. No. I chose to do this.

And, you know, I own that. And it's about making decisions about, you know, what are your priorities? We can't all do absolutely everything all of the time. So you're saying that to me very decisively now. I'm a person that weighs things up back and forth a lot before I make a big decision. What was the process like for you?

I didn't make this decision overnight. I'm sure. It took a long time. I started to think about it probably before Christmas, but I was absolutely certain that I wasn't going anywhere until I'd launched the National Cancer Plan because that's a real priority for me and I was so honoured to have been asked to lead on that,

particularly as somebody living with cancer. So I thought, what I'm going to do, wait up, see what happens, and I thought I'm going to make a decision during the February recess. And I did. And I thought, this is it. Do you know, I've been a minister for a year. I launched three national strategies in that. time, the men's health strategy, the first one ever, the HIV action plan, which I was on

talking about in December, and now the National Cancer Plan. And I think sometimes it's about saying, okay, I didn't want to be a minister to be something. I wanted to be a minister to do something. And I've done lots of things. You have. So now it's time to go and do some other things. And also, as you will have seen and heard, there was such an outpouring of support for your decision, but also for the work that you had done, the National Cancer Plan aims to ensure 75% of all cancer patients in the UK are still alive five years following a diagnosis. How do you feel about that figure?

Do you think it's possible? Well, it wouldn't be in the plan if I didn't think it was possible. It is ambitious. You know, we can't escape that. But it does mean leaning in and taking advantage of new technologies, new opportunities, being agile about how we react to those and being really laser-focused on improving cancer. outcomes and you know that's what we aim to do with the cancer plan it's not going to be easy

but it is possible and you know I'm not walking away from that I'm going to be continuing to of course to push that from the backbench what is the biggest challenge the trickiest part of that I mean the trickiest part is that actually that cancer is a wily beast and it doesn't behave like you can't just give everybody the same treatment it doesn't do the same for everybody your cancer is as individual as you are. You know, it's got its own biology and you've got your own biology. So not all treatments work for all people. But essentially what it's about is making sure that we get early diagnosis wherever possible

because it's far more treatable and curable the earlier that we get it. And this country had missed every diagnosis and treatment target for cancer for the last 10 years. You know, we've not hit those targets. since 2015, which is really shocking. So it's about saying, you know, we've really got to focus on doing that again. It's not okay to say, oh, well, that's the way it is. We've got to change the way we do things.

We've got to get people in to get their diagnosis quicker. That's why we've got community diagnostic centres open at the weekends and in the evening. So it's more accessible. And of course the pandemic was a big part as well, I know, when it came to people going to appointments or perhaps getting out of the habit, which we're talking about as well, trying to get people to go earlier. It took two years, I understand, for your initial cancer to be diagnosed. You're at a different point now.

And I'm wondering how you live with uncertainty. I talked about you're living with cancer obviously day to day now, advanced breast cancer. You've a lot of work to do, I know. You're busy, I know. Yeah. I'm actually less uncertain now than I was before I got my secondary breast cancer diagnosis. Because when you've had a primary cancer, and particularly one like breast cancer, which can come back 20 years later,

you have to learn to live with that uncertainty every day because cancer changes you forever. Once you've had that diagnosis, it's easy to be really fearful that that's going to come back. So, you know, the thing I lost when I got my primary cancer diagnosis was the thing I didn't even know I had until I lost it, which was that ability to shake off a pain or a cough and go, oh, it's probably nothing.

Because you've learned that actually sometimes it's not nothing. But once you get, you know, now I've got a secondary breast cancer diagnosis. I know that this won't be cured. You know, so there's a bit of more certainty around that. And it's really just a case of managing it as an ongoing condition. I don't know how long that's going to be. I don't know how long I'm going to get. Who does know how long they're going to get?

Nobody. None of us. But most of us are blissfully ignorant at the fact. And we can make an assumption that it's going to be a certain amount of time. I've no idea. You know, I've met women that have got similar breast. cancer to me that I've been on treatment for 20 years. But then I also know women that have died after two. You just don't know. But what I do know is that I'm on chemo at the moment and I feel

fit and well. And the adjustment I've made to my workload is going to make, you know, it means that I can carry on working as an MP. And that's the most important thing to me. So let's get back to where we started, which is this decision that you made. How does it feel now on a day to day basis? I feel good. I feel really good about it. It was absolutely the right decision for me to make. The level of fatigue that I was experiencing, I thought all the fatigue was purely down to the chemotherapy. Turns out working 14 hours a day and about four hours every Saturday and Sunday. In a high level. It's actually quite tiring. So quite a lot of that fatigue has lifted, which means that I'm far more able.

to focus my energies on doing the constituency work, which is great. I was a bit worried thinking, am I just going to be this tired anyway? How am I going to manage? But actually, I'm far less tired than I was. I'm more able to focus on what I want to do. And I'm going to spend some time in the next week or two thinking about what are my priorities now that I'm on the backbench. Ashley Dalton, MP, there.

And if you've been affected by anything you heard in that item or in the programme, the BBC Action Line has links to support. Now, Memona Memon is an actress, singer, composer and playwrights, and she joined me in the Woman's Hour studio this week. Last year, Mamuna won an Olivier Award for her performance in the musical Natasha Pierre and the Great Comet of 1812 at the Donmar in London. While now she's brought her one-woman play Manic Street Creature to London, it took four years from first performing it at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival

to bring it to the Kieln Theatre in London. and I asked her how it felt to have achieved this. You know what? It's been, in all honesty, a massive graft to get it here. And I'm so proud that we have got it here and that it's finally having the life that I've wanted for it for so long. So, yeah, I feel just so privileged to be able to put it on at such a beautiful theatre. Tell us about the story.

Tell us about Ria, the main character. Yeah, so the story is about Ria, who moves from Lancashire to London to pursue music. And she falls in love with someone. and that person she finds out has bipolar disorder. And the whole story is about her looking after this person, her being drawn to this person. And really it talks about why we are drawn to certain people,

what we learn growing up and how that affects who we fall in love with, who we're attracted to. And how we value ourselves in that process, I really wanted to speak about mental health from the perspective of the carer. I think so often we talk about mental health or we see stories about mental health from the perspective of someone going through a crisis,

which is so important. But for me, having gone through it myself, I really wanted to talk about what it's like to look after someone and care for someone who is struggling with their mental health and the implications of that. Where did the idea come from? In lockdown, I was living with someone,

who was struggling with their mental health. And writing music was a real way of healing for me. It was a way of processing what I was going through. And yeah, I started writing the songs. I wrote four songs. And then I thought this could be a story. Why the medium of musical theatre to tell this story? I think music is transcendent.

I think it gives the audience permission to release themselves into something. And also I think when you're talking about something like mental health, yeah, I think there's a lot of emotions there. and you want an audience to be able to feel like they can just sit in the story. And I think music gives people the opportunity to do that. I do want to say, though, this show, although it is about mental health, there's plenty of comedy in there. It's very funny. In the story, Daniel Ria's partner, he is taking medication.

And the impact it has, not just on him, it's Ria herself and the relationship. Why did you want to focus on that? What's the message you're trying to say? Look, it's a really nuanced, complicated, sticky subject. And I want to say that, you know, a lot of people take medication and it helps them so much. So it's not a negative thing about medication. I think medication is really, really important. And it helps a lot of people.

But I think from Maria's point of view in this story, Daniel is prescribed an antipsychotic. And within that, he gets better in certain ways. He's more social. He's eating better. He's sleeping better. But he needs Ria less. and Ria realizes in that moment that she has this addiction to being needed. She feels like she has a sense of purpose when she needs to look after Daniel.

And it's almost a cycle being repeated from what she's learned as a child. And also within that, Daniel's depth of emotion is cut off. And she feels like she can't connect with him like she first did. that feeling of the massive highs and lows that she had with him when she first met with him has now been cut off for better or for worse and she's trying to understand her place in this relationship now and yeah and how he might feel for her in that way as he said it's multi-layered it is and it's complex and it's a love story

and it's a love story and love is complicated and this is with and you know and I love the message of wanting needing to take care of yourself within that space as well You wrote this, you're on stage, you're playing everything, you went out and got funding to get it put on stage. I mean, that's the labour of love. Yes. When you have, you have, you're an Olivier Award winning performer. You know, why? Why go on this journey to tell this story?

You know, it's really interesting from the inside. You know, it's really hard to kind of take a moment to be like, oh yes, I've achieved all these things. So thank you for saying that. But I think as an actor, I'm speaking specifically here about being an actor, it can be very disempowering. Your success relies on other people's choices about whether they're going to cast you, whether you look right, all this kind of stuff. And I've been very lucky that I've done loads of shows that I've really loved as an actor,

but I've also had a hell of a lot of rejection. And also, you know, as a brown woman, I feel like there are more stories to be told, more nuanced stories to be told. When you think about how many brown women are writing, directing, and we're still in the minority. And it's difficult for people to tell those stories in nuanced ways unless they've experienced that themselves. As a mixed race woman, I wanted to tell my story

and not talk about religion or oppression or all these kind of stuff. I wanted to talk about something that I wanted to talk about. And I wanted to bring this story of mental health care to the public. And as someone, I appreciated the first time, the first moment I heard the harmonium being played, it struck a chord in me. instantly and that's the simple sort of way in which I resonated with your story just by the virtue of you having a harmonium on there. I have to talk about something else that you're in

standing at the Sky's Edge because it is one of my favourite musicals and I say that as someone who I'm just going to say this in public. I have to like the music of a musical for me to like the musical. Is that a terrible thing to say? No, I think that lots of people aren't exposed to how very musical theatre can be. I think Sky's Edge is a prime example of Richard's Richard Halley's beautiful music being showcased with an incredible story by Chris Bush about like generations of people in this one flat in Sheffield and working class community. And I think there will be musical theatre for any person if they like music. And I say this to people.

If someone says, I don't like musical theatre, I say, well, if you like music, there will be something for you. And I feel really passionate about that. How was that experience being in that production? It was one of the most special shows I've ever done in my life. And I wish I could do it all over again. Memuna, Memon there. And remember, if you have been affected by anything you've heard in this item or in today's program, then do go to BBC Action Line where there are links to support.

That's it from me. Join Noola for more Women's Hour on Monday, where she'll be hearing about new laser technology that could help detect predatory behaviour in crowded places like train stations. And author Kieran Millwood Hargrave joins us to talk about her new novel, Almost Life, a love story about mischances being billed as a queer one day. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no.

I'm just wondering to what degree. it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now, wherever you get your podcasts.