Woman's Hour - Leeds maternity review, Women vets, The term 'rough wooing'

Episode Date: March 11, 2026

The health secretary Wes Streeting has appointed senior midwife Donna Ockenden to lead a review into maternity and neonatal services at Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust. The appointment came after a sustained campaign by bereaved and harmed families who said that she was the only one they trusted to lead the review into failings in Leeds. BBC reporter Divya Talwar tells us about breaking the story and Donna Ockenden joins Nuala McGovern to discuss her new appointment as well as her ongoing review into Nottingham university hospitals.We look at the changing gender split in the veterinary profession, 61% of working vets are women and 80% of recently qualified vets - what's behind the shift? Dr Christianne Glossop is Honorary Professor and Honorary Fellow at the Royal Veterinary College and Wales' first Chief Veterinary Officer, she joins Nuala.During World War One, women working in munitions factories formed football teams. They would sometimes play in front of thousands of people, until the Football Association banned women's football in 1921, a ban that lasted for 50 years. This is the focus of a play at Sheffield's Crucible Theatre, The Ladies Football club. One of the stars is Ellie Leach, formerly in Coronation Street and who won Strictly Come Dancing in 2023. She joins Nuala alongside director Elizabeth Newman.Dr Amy Blakeway, Senior Lecturer in 16th Century Scottish History at the University of St Andrews, talks to Nuala about the history of the term 'rough wooing', and why she thinks its time we stopped using it.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Helen Fitzhenry

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, this is Neula McGovern, and you're listening to the Women's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. In a moment, Donna Ockenden, who is now leading an independent inquiry into repeated maternity failures at an NHS trust after a U-turn by the Health Secretary on her appointment.

Also on Women's Hour today, vets are now mainly women. 60% of the workforce going up to 80% for those who are newly qualified. So what turned the tide in what was a previously male-dominated profession? We have Wales' first chief veterinary officer with us this hour. And I think that we must have some female vets listening. Prove me right. Is it you? Or perhaps it was your dream job as a girl, whether it happened or not? Why do you think it appeals to so many?

women and girls. To get in touch, text the program 84844. Social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or voice note. The number is 0-3700-100-400-444. Also, is it time to change or stop using the phrase rough-wooing to describe the Anglo-Scottish Wars of the 1540s?

My guest, the historian Amy Blakeway, thinks so, we'll hear why. and we'll also take some time with the ladies' football club. This is a play that will take us to the munitions factories and the football pitches of World War I. But let me begin with the announcement by the Health Secretary West Streeting yesterday who appointed the senior midwife Donna Ockington to lead a review into maternity and neonatal services

at Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust. The appointment came after a sustained campaign by bereaved and harmed families who said that Donna Ockington was the only one they trusted to lead the review into failings in Leeds. While Donna Ockington joined me in the Woman's Hour studio earlier this morning, I'm going to bring you that interview in just a moment. And it all comes after a BBC investigation in January of 2025 that revealed the deaths of at least 56 babies

and two mothers at the Leeds Trust over the past five years could have been prevented. It was senior BBC reporter Diviatt Talwar who broke that story and has been working on it since. She joins me in studio. Good morning. Good morning. Divya, how are the families feeling after this lead with Donna Ockington being appointed?

I mean, the overriding sense of relief that the families are feeling, if we just take a step back, this is obviously a huge moment for them, but there is a group of families that have been fighting years and years and years for this moment. They have refused to be silenced.

They have refused to, accept no. And you can only imagine the toll that that takes on you. You are facing unimaginable grief. You have experienced the worst thing that could happen. You have lost a child. And yet you are navigating the NHS. You are navigating politics, even the media. And so this is just a huge moment for the families. And hopefully they can take a step back now in grieve. I want to take a step back to October when West Streeting announced an inquiry would take place, but has taken until now for a decision to be made on who would lead it. The families were clear, as you mentioned, that they wanted Donna Okendon. But when we asked the Health Secretary here on Women's Hour,

if he would appoint her, this is what he said. No, she won't be leading the Leeds inquiry, not least because she's leading the work at Nottingham and Shrews-Bring's Helford. And if I could clone her, I would. But the challenge I've got, and it's not just in Leeds, but in other parts of the country, because Donna has earned the trust of the families that she's working with, everyone wants Donna. But I've got to make sure that when firstly protecting the work that Donna's already doing, but I've also got to build a wider team of people too who can support the government and support the NHS when trouble arises.

Why do you think he changed his mind? Look, there's been growing pressure on the health sector from families, from MPs to reverse that decision, to appoint Donna Ockenden. And the families have always been adamant. They need someone that they can trust. to do the job. They felt like this, they've only got one chance to get this right. And there was no one else that they felt have the respect and the experience. Obviously, you've got Donna leading other inquiries too. And so that pressure just kept mounting on West Streeting. The

families went to Downing Street last month and actually hand delivered a letter to the prime minister saying, we've lost confidence in the health sector. We need you to intervene in this inquiry. I know that there was a meeting with a group of families and the health secretary lasted about four hours. Really? Yeah, so you can imagine that that was quite intense and the families told me that they put all their arguments down of why it had to be Donna and ultimately the Health Secretary has now listened to them and said that Donna is going to lead this inquiry. I mentioned the investigation of yours in January 2025 where you heard from brief families, parents, whistleblowers, all of the leads teaching hospitals, NHS trust. What can you say from that? That kind of brings us to this

point? I mean, it has been significant in scale. I originally spoke to one mother, Fiona, who contacted me in the summer of 2024, who said, there are concerns here. Please look into them. Her daughter, Aliona died. Gross failures. Here we are now a year and a half from that initial investigation. I've now spoken to more than a hundred families. I've spoken to a dozen whistleblowers. The repeated failures that leads need to be investigated, which is now obviously something that Donna is going to be able to do. Stay with us, Stivia, because I want to turn to Donna Ockington, who has been leading a maternity review at Nottingham University Hospital since 2022,

examining about 2,500 cases of harm to mothers and babies that report due in June this year. Before that, she had spent five years overseeing what became known as the Ockenden Review. That was an independent review into maternity services at the Shrewsbury and Telford Hospital NHS Trust. But as I mentioned, it's five months since West Reading said in the studio that Donne Ockington would not be leading the review, this review into Leeds. But while there was indecision from the government over who would lead it, Donna said very publicly that she would take the job on if asked. So I got to ask her this morning when she did that, was she trying to pressure them to appoint her?

Absolutely not. But I had to speak the truth. The truth was that there is always a way of making things work. And I had explained how I believed it could work. And I was very aware and the families have been very eloquent in expressing their strongly held views that they wanted me to chair the review. Well, I spoke to two of the bereaved mothers when the review was announced back in October. That was Lauren Caulfield and Amarjit Khor, Matheroo, who so sadly both lost babies while receiving care at Leeds teaching hospital trust. I want to bring a little to you what they said about who they wanted to lead the review.

Anyone others in Donna will not be sufficient. You know, she has the independence, the experience and expertise and she is trusted. We know that she works thoroughly. We've seen a real-time change she's implemented in Nottingham. And we've seen that she provides that justice to families and holds the trust and the leadership teams to account. and there's nobody else, as far as I'm aware, that has that track record. Yeah, I completely agree.

I think with Donna's methodology that she brings, there's a bit of a looking back retrospectively at what has happened to lead to failings, but real-time change. So part of her work is having accountability, having transparency and that real-time change because actually no other person should experience what we've experienced. How do you feel hearing that? It's always an honour and a privilege to be trusted. by families.

My responsibility now is to make sure that the trust that has been put in me by the Leeds families, but also, of course, the Nottingham families who I'm still working with is absolutely paid back that I continue to do the right thing,

that my very large team continue to do the right thing by both families in Nottingham and the families in Leeds. I'm struck by a couple of things you've said to me already. Simple words of like there is always a way. And the other is about finding that way.

Lauren and Amarjit talk about the methodology as well. How do you do it when you go into something that is such a complex web, like failings within a maternity system? So I would think the first, the golden thread that goes through all of our work, the Ockenden Review Team's work, is about listening to women and families. That means fathers. That can sometimes mean women's mother. women's mothers and women themselves.

The second essential aspect is listening to staff on the ground. You may know that we've got well over 800 current and former Nottingham staff have come forward to participate in our review. And then I believe really strongly about multi-professional working in perinatal care. So that's maternity and neonatal care. My team is over 150 doctors, nurses, midwives, all kinds of specialities. maternity care is not an island it isn't something that just

midwives and obstetricians can play a part in particularly these very complex reviews so I think it's putting all that together and putting women and family voices at the heart of everything if families have had to fight so hard and in fact with people that I've met that have lost babies

they thought there were isolated cases then they found each other through Facebook groups, for example. But some are wondering, you know, why have the families hot to battle so hard? Why didn't staff raise concerns earlier? Because obviously, they would have been there when these tragedies occurred. How do you understand it from a culture point of view?

There are very significant cultural issues of concern across many services in perinatal care. It is true to say that women and families are not always listened to. They often feel, and they are, not just feel, they are often disregarded, they raise concerns, those concerns aren't acted upon. So there is something fundamental

that needs fixing at the heart of maternity care. Why do you think they're not listened to? I think that there's, again, a multiplicity of reasons, not one size fits all. there is in many areas a culture of, well, we know best. No, stay at home. You're not in labour. You know, if you can talk through that contraction, you know,

go and have a glass of cold water, lie on your side, ring us back in an hour. And so many of those cases, they're real examples from across the country, end in tragedy. So not listening to women. and conversely staff on the ground telling me, because I speak every single day to families and staff on the ground

that they are not listened to when they are raising concerns, there are fundamental issues that need fixing. It's very illustrative, I feel, those examples that you gave, and I'm sure it will resonate with a lot of people who are listening. But how do you change that culture? For somebody really, and I'm talking about, a huge amount of staff to change

to become more humble I suppose is the word I would use I think if in fact it's coming from a we know best So one of the things that I've wondered about and I've raised on a number of occasions is that as women

and babies and therefore their families are discharged from maternity care earlier and earlier as health visiting as a profession who were the people that took over from the community midwife and provided seamless care for mothers and their babies. As those two professions are under greater strain,

I think now that often maternity care, perinatal care, do not know, do not hear and see the examples that I do. And I regularly report back to trusts and say, are you aware what happened to this woman and her baby? Do you know the outcomes? Do you know what this family is living with? And quite often, not because people don't care, but I get blank faces and they go, well, no,

because they're kind of discharged from us by 10 days or, you know. So I do think that the safety net, the support, the systems, the structures that I grew up with as a young midwife have all but been eviscerated. It's interesting. In 2022, the Occadden report was published looking at failing maternity services in Shrewsbury and Telford. You told us it made headlines that England's maternity services were not safe without the following of your actions. You don't say recommendations. You say actions.

Were those actions taken? No. They were partially taken. and I think this is another problem issue to add to the complex jigsaw, that is maternity perinatal care. Sadie Javid, who was then the Secretary of State, and he gave me a significant amount of his time in listening and understanding what had happened in Shrewsbury and Elford,

and I'll always be grateful for that. He fully endorsed all the findings in the report, and my belief remains that if, he had stayed, we would have done much better. But in the end, what we had was a revolving door of multiple secretaries of state over the next year. We'll all remember that. And interest got lost. So I do think that an absolutely fundamental issue now is that there has to be a process put in place. And this won't just be across maternity. It won't just be across health. It'll be across government that there needs to be when a government accepts findings and they need to

accept them within a timely way. What's timely? I would say for a report like Shrewsbury and Telford, they were accepted on the day. But I would say within two months or three months, you know, within a short year. And then they need to be monitored for the actions that they take. So many excellent reports have been published on perinatal care. let's say since 2010, excellent reports, that would have made a difference,

but they get kicked into the long grass. That's the first thing. And then when they are accepted, nobody seems to take the responsibility to see those actions fully implemented. And that obviously is not under your purview. Yours is to create or show the actions that you feel is necessary to take.

Tell me about the scope of this review that you are going to now undertake, as many of the parents, we'll be happy to hear for Leeds Teaching Hospitals Trust. So we will be working on what we call the terms of reference. Think of that as the scaffolding that holds up our building over the coming weeks and months. As far as I'm aware, the cases will go back to 20. 11. So it's a 15 year review. What remains to be decided are the main groups of cases that we will consider. And I can't speak clearly enough about this. Families have to be able to co-produce those terms of reference in order for them to feel, to see that they've got the answers that they've waited so long for. What do you mean by that? Absolutely actively involved and satisfied that the terms of reference meet their needs and their requirements.

Having heard what the Secretary of State said yesterday, I'm absolutely confident that he understands that and he agrees with that principle. And what sort of time scale are you looking at? Currently, and again, I will stress that nothing is cemented down yet. I think we're looking at a time scale of around three years. But what I will stress with the experience from Nottingham is that the trust won't be sitting around waiting for learning to come out in a great big huge Ockenden report in three years time. We have a methodology where I meet with the trust in Nottingham very, very regularly and they put in place almost the interim findings that I'm hearing from families from their own staff on the ground as well. And I was also to ask you about Nottingham so that to let me. people know was the largest review of its kind in NHS history with about 2,500 cases being

examined the final report expected in just a few months in June. Do you feel you're on track? And you've mentioned some interim recommendations or some interim findings taking place. But is there anything you can tell us that you would like people to know about that review as the report is about to happen? Absolutely. So I wrote out to families yesterday, Nottingham families yesterday, to absolutely reassure them that we are on track to publish the Nottingham report in June. We don't have a final publication date in June yet because that's decided by the Department of Health. But we're working with them on that.

Although there remains a lot to do in Nottingham, you know, it's about turning around a huge oil tanker of a service. Nottingham Trust is making some significant progress. But when the current chief executive, Anthony May and the chair, inherited, took on the trust in 2022, it had a hell of a way to go. But progress is being made. Is it the same issues you see, whether it's true's retail ford or Nottingham?

There are similarities and differences. Both of them had a culture of not. listening to their communities. When I first went to Nottingham on day one of the review, first of September 2022, I had to make my own contacts with the very diverse communities across Nottingham and Nottinghamshire. I asked the trust for advice and they couldn't really give me any advice. So I just got on with it. And, you know, we've now, I think, handed over to the trust. While we're still continuing to build community relationships and relations, we've given the trust a lot of guidance and support in reaching out to their own communities.

And we're continuing to develop that as a legacy from the work that we've been doing in Nottingham. And the top line from Nottingham at the moment? They've had a number of successes, particularly with recruitment and retention of midwives. However, there remain chronic problems, I think, with some... Some staff behaviours, but I would commend staff for the really positive way in which they've engaged with us. What sort of behaviour? So more junior midwives are still reporting to us that there are senior staff who have instilled a culture of fear.

And some staff are frightened to work with individuals. I mean, you know, there are still issues that need sorting out in Nottingham. How do you change that culture, though, if it is, for example, a culture of fear or a fear of speaking up? I think that leaders have to take a very, very clear and strong line on this is not Nottingham. We will not tolerate this. And there is more work to do without a doubt. These stories are devastating, even when we hear one. And I'm wondering, as with your expertise, you're brought in again and again, as we see to try and rectify some of the failures.

But personally, how is it to do this work? Well, it remains an absolute honour and a privilege to do the work. I've had to learn to look after myself over the years. There is the old saying you can't pour from an empty cup. And there was a point when I'd started not. and if I'm being very truthful, but the evidence is out there, I was extremely overweight. I wasn't looking after myself. And I was really exhausted.

And I had to take myself in hand and say, right, if you're going to continue to do this work and, you know, I've got a lot of family responsibilities as well. You have to look after yourself. So the last three years have been about taking care of myself, making sure that I'm in really good health. I meditate every day. I learned out of Vedic meditation. If I look after Donna Ockenden, Donna Ockenden can then do exactly what she needs to do every day. And that's really important. Donna Ockington speaking to me there, senior medwife,

who has been appointed by the Health Secretary to lead a review into Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust. A message that came in saying, I'm listening with interest to your piece about the Leeds Trust this morning. My daughter graduated from Leeds University in 2025 and now works for the Leeds Trust. She and the team she has worked with over the past three years during her training worked tirelessly to put the women they care for first. News like this review are devastating for hardworking midwives like my daughter who care deeply for the women in their care. Please put forward the case for all the current hardworking midwives

currently working for the Leeds Trust who are not at fault but as frontline workers continue to take the brunt off the results of reports like this. I also want to read some of the statements that we have received the Leeds Teaching Hospitals, NHS Trust have apologised to families whose babies died or were harmed. They said we are absolutely committed to working openly, honestly and transparently

with Donna Ockington and the review team and with families who have used our services. They say significant improvements are already underway in the maternity and neonatal services following reviews by the Care Quality Commission and NHS England. To the Department of Health who told us that since July 2021

They have invested £131 million in 122 infrastructure projects across 49 NHS trusts to improve safety of neonatal care facilities and that the Secretary of State has ordered a national maternity investigation chaired by Baronas Amos. We've spoken about that on this programme. And it says the aim of this rapid independent investigation is to develop one set of national recommendations to drive improvements in maternity and neonatal care across England.

and reduced inequalities in the delivery of those services. Well, listening to all that is the senior BBC reported to be a Talwar who broke the story just a little over a year ago. Your thoughts on what you've heard? Well, you heard Donna say three years, this is going to be a long process, a long inquiry. But just stepping away from all of this and the politics around this decision today,

essentially, Nula, this is a group of normal families who have been grieving for a really, really long time, who've done something quite extraordinary to make this inquiry happen. And ultimately, they are hopeful that they will finally get the answers that they've wanted for so long and ultimately change so that no others have to experience the unimaginable loss and grief that they have. Davia, Telwar, thanks very much for coming into us this morning. I was mentioning a little earlier about the figures when it comes to vets and asking for

female vets to get in touch. Here's one. I qualified as a vet in 2014. There is certainly still unconscious bias and barriers for women getting into specialist training. Although most of the profession is made up of female vets,

I've worked in specialist referral practice for the past seven years. And the split is very different, often 50-50 male-female specialists. In the past five years, my clinical director of a large hospital has changed four times. Always a man, 84844,

if you'd like to get in touch. Why are we talking about this? because the dream for some little girls of becoming a vet has become a reality for many. Things have changed drastically since the 1930s when James Harriet, author of All Creatures Great and Small, practiced as a farm vet. Now the profession is no longer a male-dominated field.

61% of working vets are female. And get this, a whopping 80% of recently qualified vets. So what's happening? Why the shift? I am joined by Dr. Christyenne Glossop, honorary professor and honorary fellow at the Royal Veterinary College. She is also Wales's first chief veterinary officer, CVO. You're very welcome to Women's Hour. Hello, hello, Noala. Thank you for inviting me.

So you joined this profession almost 47 years ago. And I'm wondering about the shift that you've seen when it comes to gender within your profession. How do you understand it? Yeah, it's a really interesting thing to note. I must admit that when I was a little girl of 13 with a dream of becoming a vet, whether you were male or female was irrelevant to me. I just wanted to go out there and make a difference, and I really cared about animal health and welfare,

although the vets I knew at the time were male, and now I reflect on that, and it's interesting. But there has been a massive shift. When I went to college in 100 years ago, let's say that, one third of us were women and the rest were men. What was that number, Christian? Sorry, your line just cut out for a second. What number was it? One third of us.

So there were 77 people in the year and about the third of us were women. Wow. So this is obviously a big change. How do you understand it? Because, I mean, I think that image that we might have had of various TV programs, or wherever it might be, would be kind of a big macho farmer wrestling a cow to the ground, for example. Is that still happening but women at the helm? Well, I think it's worth recognising that the profession is very diverse.

There are many different roles you can take on. But I know some fabulous cattle vets who are women. And I know some fantastic small animal surgeons that are men. So I think that really and truly it's there for the taking, the roles that you want to take up. But, you know, why have women become so interested? I think women have always had a heart for animal health and welfare. And it's more about them being surrounded by the support and the encouragement that they need to believe that they can go into those roles. So what was there?

Because, you know, we often talk about this on Women's Hour, you know, an industry that is male. dominated and what needs to change within it. But obviously, within this one, it has changed somewhat. I can get into some of the issues my listeners are bringing up. But what are the structures that are there that made it an easier pathway? I mean, it's a really interesting question. And I think it's more about women believing that they can do this. And then having role models that are women that have been trailblazers in the field.

And let's not forget that even though women vets were in the minority, for many, many years. We had our first president, women president, Mary Branca, back in 67, and president of our governing body, the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, Dame Olga Yuvrov in the 70s. So this isn't new.

Kristian, I'm so sorry to get you to repeat this, but just I know our line is glitching a little bit, so please bear with us listeners. But tell me again, you had your first? The first president of the women, of the British Veterinary Association, that was a woman, was in 1967. Mary Branca

and of our governing body the Royal College of veterinary surgeons in 76, Olga Yuverov. So these are happening decades ago. What about that point that I read out a message that in some of the larger animal hospitals, for example,

the listener said even though she's a vet that she sees it's often a man that is heading it and says when it goes into specialist referral services there are so much more men in there. How is the hierarchy within the industry. Yeah, I mean, I agree with that.

And you might think that with the big change in the number of women vets in the profession, that we should see more hierarchy, more women in the hierarchy now. I think it would be fair to say that there are far more junior women vets. Now, the question is, why women are not necessarily fulfilling their career potential?

And that's been a question for a number of years. I mean, back in the late 90s, we were asking that question. And in fact, a meeting was called of leading women vets in the profession. And the question was asked, why aren't women fulfilling their career potential? And I suggested at the meeting that they'd invited the wrong women to the table because we were making life choices and making sure that we could balance our home life and a satisfying career. And it's more the women that were not able to do that,

perhaps in more difficult circumstances that couldn't achieve their objectives. And I'm just thinking about that as a work-life balance. I'm sure it's very different if you have an animal surgery, for example, that is nine to five hours, Monday to Friday, or whatever it may be, compared to a vet that's on call, perhaps somebody, you know, some animals that are in trouble, whatever it might be, middle of the night, sort of business.

And I'm wondering where gender comes into those different sorts of roles, for example, much more pet ownership, perhaps, less farmers. Yeah, and it can be difficult. I mean, I remember when my daughter was a tiny baby having to learn how to express breast milk so that I could leave my husband with the baby while I went out on call. And you have got to think about these things.

I actually weaned her deliberately so I could attend a meeting. And, you know, when I look back, I'm amazed at myself and the fact that she survived the process. But women have to make choices, don't they? And if you want to have a family and be a veterinary surgeon, you have to make sure you've got the right support mechanism around you. I think that's what it's about. And being very clear that you believe in what you're doing.

Because if you're going to choose, as I did, to pay other people to look after my children while I went to work. I had to make sure I believed in the work that I was doing. I am getting that what's coming through. I threw it out female vets and yes, we do have a lot of listeners about our female vets. Let's listen to a couple of them. I'm a female farm animal vet working in the Northwest. My qualifying class at the Royal Veterinary College was 80% female

and I'm proud to work with some brilliant male and female vets. but there's definitely bias against women working in our industry, both from farmers and from the leadership in practice, certain farmers refusing female vets on farm, for example, or making snide comments about things being a man's job. On the other hand, most of our farmer clients appreciate the ingenuity of some of my smaller colleagues when taking on a difficult calving. Yeah, I mean, that chimes with everything I know and understand.

You know, any vet going out onto a farm for the first time has to prove themselves. That's whether they're male or female. They have to be willing to listen and they need to understand how a farm works before ever they can win the confidence of a farmer. But I don't think that's unique to women. I think that that happens across the board. Now, I mean, one horror story from me was attending a job interview at a cattle breeding centre. So that would be a vet working on a bolster.

semen collections, processing, fertility investigations. And my panel of interviewers were of all farmers, male farmers, in their 50s. And the first question they asked me was, does your husband know you are here? When was this? Well, that would have been in the early 80s. I realised very quickly that wasn't a place I could have worked, even if they had offered me their job, which in fact, they did not.

They did not. Your current role, you are CVO, Chief Veterinary Officer for Wales. It's quite a workload when I looked at it. Some of the issues you're responsible for, it's like it can be, of course, so detrimental to the economic livelihoods of people if things go wrong with their animals. Tell me a little bit more. Yeah, so I took on that role back in 2005.

I actually stood down in 22. So I gave that on my all for 17 years. And yeah, it was a big responsible job. I went into that role so that I could make all the difference I possibly could. I was previously in a role delivering government policy on animal health and welfare. And some of it was hard to explain and hard to understand. And it struck me that the only way of scrambling to beyond that was to get into a role where I could make the policy.

And so working obviously two ministers, I was able to take the lead on preventative medicine, on biosecurity measures, but also leading the charge against disease epidemics, for example, avian flu. But most particularly in Wales, the fight against bovine tuberculosis, which was very much what drew me into the role in the first place. Yeah, I mean, it's such a big job that I think, of course, touches so many areas of policy as well. More messages. My daughter in her final year of veterinary medicine at a reputable university reported appalling behaviour from one of her equine tutors. He behaves differently to the men from the women and he showed the male students how you can deliberately drop a scalpel during surgery to get the female nurse to grovel at his feet. Oh my goodness. As a joke, he says, if this happens in the city, such men are disciplined, but it appears not in vet school. I'd like to get your thoughts on anybody

who's thinking about going into the veterinary profession maybe a little girl or a young woman listening right now. Yeah, and I think back to the little girl that I was with that dream and I think what I would say to them is first of all, know that you can make a difference. We can make this profession better. The role is diverse, it's fulfilling, it's satisfying. And if you can believe in what you're doing,

then you can have a rich and rewarding career. But we need women to step up. As you've pointed out, we need them to move on into the higher levels of the veterinary profession, following in the footsteps of those trailblazers back in the 60s and 70s. And, you know, we need to call out that bad behaviour, and I'm sad to hear it. But I think that overall, don't be put off by that. Get into the profession. Come with me and make it.

What a pitch. Dr. Christy Ann Glossop, honorary professor, honorary fellow at the Royal Veterinary College and also Wales's first chief veterinary officer. So interesting. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for your messages. I will continue to read them 84844. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids.

I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story.

Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Lots of vets in our audience. Maybe footballers as well. Maybe keen followers of football. If you are, you will know that the World Cup qualifiers are going on at the moment. But women's football has a long and at times sad history.

So we want to go back to over 100 years ago. When during World War I, women working in munitions factories formed football teams, sometimes playing in front of thousands of people. This was all until the Football Association banned women's football in 1921. The ban lasted for 50 years. It is the basis of a play that's on at the moment in Sheffield at the Crucible Theatre. The Ladies Football Club, that's the play. Stars among others, Ellie Leach, you might know her from Cornation Street or winning strictly come dancing a couple of years ago. She joins me now, as does the play's director, Elizabeth Newman.

Welcome to both of you. Good to have you on. So, Elizabeth, let me start with you. The idea for the play, the catalyst. Where did it come from? Well, about a year and a half ago, I was appointed as the new artistic director of Sheffield theatres, of which The Crucible is one of our four theatres.

And I was on the phone to a brilliant man called Alan Brody, who is my own agent. and I was bending his ear going, I want to do big plays, I want to do big plays, and, you know, lots of women on stage and all these sorts of things. And he said, I think you should talk to Tim Firth. Now, I already knew about Tim's work as a writer,

and I ran to him, got in a call to Tim, and I said, Alan said, I should talk to you. He said, I've found this dramatic verse play by Stefano Messini, who most people will know from the Lehman trilogy, amongst other things. And it's about the birth of women's football in Sheffield in a munitions factory. And I really want to write an 11 women play with loads of movement and music and blend.

Me and Stefano's, you know, it was very much a dramatic verse place. It was lots of poetry and Tim's own extraordinary ability with comedy and warmth. and laugh and write and write the play for the crucible. And I said, that sounds great. And so we have these women who decided to form a football team that are appearing on your stage. But tell us a little about them, the women who inspired you.

Well, in fact, they're all from Stefano's imagination. So although he researched women's football, he created these 11 different women with their 11 different backstories and then Tim has taken that creation and developed them further for our stage in Sheffield. And what's extraordinary is the company of 13, because we have 13 lady players, as we call that, we have 13 lady players.

You only ever see 11 on stage at once. And each of the actors has very much brought themselves to each of these. these women who they're playing, and the company are extraordinary. So let me turn to you, Ellie. You're playing Brianna the Saint, a factory worker obsessed with Joan of Arc. Yeah. She is literally obsessed with Joan of Arc as well. And her reason, why and what is it like to play her?

I mean, it's amazing. When I first read the script, I was just like, this is going to be incredible. And I think, as Elizabeth is saying, you know, we have 11 women on stage at all times. And it's a show of teamwork and friendship. And I think that that's what really drew me to the play at first. Because I was like, wow, how amazing would it be to be in a company full of women and showcase that? But I think, you know, as much as it's about football, it's like I say, about that teamwork and about having love for something

and having one thing that unites people because all of the characters are different and each one of us brings something different to the show but we're all united by one thing and that's our love for football that grows throughout the show. And you know, Elizabeth alluded to there, she wanted it full of movement. Some have described it almost like a football ballet at times.

You know, you have your strictly experience and I'm wondering, did that help? And how would you describe what it looks like to actually go through some of those motions? I think it's been amazing for me because we've got to work with Scott Graham from France Assembly, which has been incredible. And I think, you know, having done Strictly, I love dance and I love movement. And this is a different aspect. It's like marrying the two together, which is, yeah, it's been so much fun for me. And I haven't really done any dancing since Strictly.

So to be able to get back into the movement, it's been, yeah, it's been really, really nice. You're getting that muscle memory back. Elizabeth, it's the football, of course, but also the politics of the day that intersects here and the expectations on women. Tell me a little bit about how that story affected you and what you want to get across.

Well, I read the first draft that Tim wrote the play and by this point I got my hands on Stefano's original dramatic verse play and a sort of very simple English translation. And I was angry when I read the play, as well as being incredibly inspired and moved and all those things. I was angry. And that felt like a good place to start. Because we should be angry that women in, you know,

during the wartime as well as, you know, keeping, you know, all the businesses going, raising children, finding a place of freedom and expressing themselves through playing football together, to have that taken away as well as their jobs. Lots of women were no longer allowed to go to work anymore. And we had to clear the pitch again. And to know that we had to stay off the pitch until 1971, I was very angry.

But I think that's very helpful in the theatre. Theatre should be and needs to be a place of discourse. and what's brilliant about the ladies football club because of Tim, because of Stefano, because of Scott, because of these 13 brilliant women, because of the amazing creative team that worked on it, it's really entertaining, it's really funny, it's really moving. But you are left with the truth,

which is are we going to continue to stand by and allow women's rights to be eroded? And I feel that we're in another moment again, you know, when I've read the first draft, it was in 2024. And since then, even more of our rights have been eroded in certain parts of the world. And I think it's very important that theatre is a space where people can come together in a space like the crucible and leave an auditorium about to have a debate after a really good night out.

And I think that's very important. Ellie, coming back to you, it is quite a shift. You've done long-running screen work on Cornation Street. People will know you as Faye Windas for 12 years, also strictly as I alluded to. What's it like stepping into this live ensemble show? It's really amazing. I mean, to be in the Crucible at first is iconic. It's incredible.

But to be on stage with 10 other incredible actors and just people in general, It's been, yeah, it's really, I just feel every time I do the show, every night we go out and we show our audiences of what we've been working on, I feel inspired every night to show people that this is what having a nice night out what the theatre is like, but also, like Elizabeth said, you can leave having a debate and thinking, you know, learning as well. I think our aim is to entertain and to educate.

And I think that's what's so amazing about the show is that we're able to do both. I'm just thinking about that performance. I'm always blown away by any theatre. I go to see if what an actor is able to give every night, twice a day sometimes if there's a matinee as well. But of course, you performed so much on strictly, kind of that pressure and the youngest ever winner at just 22.

Did that journey going through that process change you, do you think, as a person, as a performer? Yeah, definitely. I think whenever anyone asks me about strictly, I always say it completely changed my life. And I think that people go, well, it's just a dance show. Like, how can it change your life? But it changed me in a way that I never would have expected. It made me think more about the way that I live my life.

I used to be quite a negative person and always be kind of worried and scared of what was to come and Strictly really helped to build my confidence and I think even now doing the ladies football club, I'm just constantly building on that and it's with the help of people around me, especially

with this team with Elizabeth and with the rest of the of the team. It's yeah, it just makes you want to be a better person. So I think I definitely got that from Strictly but the

projects that I've done after Strictly have, yeah, I think everything's just kind of working towards being a better person, which is amazing. Well, it sounds like a wonderful watch. The Ladies Football Club. It is on at the Crucible Theatre in Sheffield until the 28th of March. I want to thank both of my guest, Elizabeth Newman, who is the director, and Ellie Leach, who is one of the football players, as well as all the other roles, of course, we know we're from as Well, thanks so much. Thanks also for your messages coming in. Here we go.

My daughter is a vet. She's married to a male vet. She achieved her first class honours at the same time as her husband. Currently, her husband earns a higher salary and works shorter hours. Why is this? Should we be teaching negotiation skills at vet school? There's one theory. Another, I'm nearly 50.

I just opened on my own as an independent vet clinic with my friend and colleague. We are an all-female team and we love our jobs. The backbone of the last hospital I worked in was part-time mums. It is a great vocation for family life too. 84844, if you'd like to get in touch. Now, if I say the phrase rough wooing, what do you think it means? Where does your mind go? We know what the word rough means.

Many of us know what the word wooing means or to woo. But this term appears on school curriculums across England and Scotland, and it's used to refer to a particular period in our history. But Dr Amy Blakeway, senior lecturer in 16th century Scottish history at the University of St Andrews, thinks it's time for it to go. Welcome to Women's Hour, Amy. Good to have you with us. Thank you very much for having me.

So could you explain a little bit more for us on what rough wooing means exactly? Okay, so there's two meanings. We'll start with the historical one and then talk about the more cultural one. So it's used to refer to a period of conflict between England and Scotland, between 1542 and 1550. And this was initiated because Mary Queen of Scots became queen aged six days old, her great uncle, Henry the 8th, so, oh, fantastic. I can unite England and Scotland if this baby girl married my son, the future, Edward the sick. The Scots said thanks, but no thanks, just cut a very long story short, and this initiated the war. So the term rough-wearing has been used by historians to refer to an English invasion of Scotland.

And that was, yeah, an extremely bloody conflict. But also it was something that could happen to a woman. Absolutely, yeah. So alongside that historical context, there's also this broader cultural meaning. And that broader cultural meaning is something that's quite distressing to think about. the type of rape or other type of assault, but most often a rape, perpetrated on a woman as a means to force and effect a marriage. And that sort of meaning that remained remarkably culturally consistent, actually,

from the 17th through to the 19th centuries. So a weapon of war? Yeah, a weapon of war, but this is something that could also occur in an individual intimate relationship, as it were, between an individual man and a woman. So rape was certainly used as a weapon of war. but a rough wing would just be used as a rape to force a marriage. And I think the cultural context there that's important is that the shame attached to rape,

the distress that women would feel following it could be used to force this marriage. And in a culture where there will be a great degree of victim blaming, the subsequent marriage would use to kind of make the rape better as a solution, as a resolution to it. And also as a woman, if known to be raped, would not be marriageable, I would imagine, in those times. Absolutely. But let us go back to Mary Queen of Scots because she was raped, which is an issue that some may or may not know,

which would have the term probably would have been used at that time of rough wood. Yeah, so the situation for Mary Queen of Scots is something that this is one of the most sort of famous rape incident, the 16th century is probably the most famous one. And actually, it's something that's quite difficult to trace in the historical record. But yeah, as an adult, Mary, so the woman over whose body these wars were fought, was raped by one of her subjects, the Earl of Bothwell. He kidnapped her while she was riding. He assaulted her, took her away to Dunbar Castle, where she was raped. And subsequent to that, again, the shame of having had the experience of being raped, forced her to marry him.

And we've got really clear contemporary evidence that that is. what went on. A rough wooing, of course, seems much milder than the term rape. And you want us to look at these terms and remove them? Yeah, that's right. Basically, I think when we're thinking about this term rough wooing, it's part of a wider problem, I think, in our language, in terms of how we talk about sexual assault, right? There's a lot of extremely unpleasant phrases that are used either to minimize the nature of violence against women, very often sexual, but it could just be other kinds of violence, or to shift blame towards the victim.

So we think, for example, about the modern rough sex defence, the idea that a woman asked for it. The phrase rough wooing is really on the same spectrum of discourse. It shifts blame away from a victim and away from the perpetrator, rather, and towards the victim. And it minimises the violence. includes the violence. And so it's really quite an evasive, slippery term. And just on the rough sex defence, just a bit more detail on that. It's a controversial legal

argument in the UK where defendants claim a partner's injury or death resulted from consensual rough sexual activity. There has been recent legislative changes, particularly under the Domestic Abuse Act of 2021, which have curtailed its stating consent, cannot be relied on upon for serious harm or death inflicted for sexual gratification. So some might ask, as you want these terms changed, for both what has happened, rape, or indeed the naming of this particular war to change. Are you in danger of applying today's context to history? And in doing so, erasing history, albeit a complicated one.

I'm so glad you asked that, Nuala, because actually the term rough wooing, when it's applied to the wars of the 1540s, is itself anachronistic. People say it was used at the time, but it absolutely wasn't. It first emerged about 160 years after the war finished, and emerged in a really interesting context in the debates surrounding Anglo-Scottish Parliamentary Union,

when this violent past became so problematic for people who wanted union. And so this term rough wooing was useful because people were used to thinking about politics in sort of making it domestic, and thinking about it as though it were a family, right? The king is the head of the family. The king's the head of the household.

So applying this term that had obvious connotations about gendered relations, something that smoothed over violence on a path to a peaceful union, a word that she's both to describe the parliamentary union of England and Scotland and a marriage, right? It allows all these ends to be tied up together. So actually, by getting rid of it, we're being less anachronistic. rape, I imagine, is the words you would use when it comes to the action between humans that has been called rough wooing. What would you use for that particular war?

Anglo-S Scottish Wars in the 1540s. It's not catchy, it's not glamorous, but war isn't catchy or glamorous either, or it certainly shouldn't be. I mean, usually with issues of history, there will be pushback. Some people don't want things changed. Have you come up against that? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've been really fortunate when I've presented this to other historians, my colleagues, they've had a chance to look at the footnotes and they found the argument and the case persuasive. But when I've talked to community history groups, there have been some people who've said, oh, you know, the term rough-wowing is quite familiar. So I've dug a little deeper into that, but it seems that actually there's also a group of people who say, well, actually it's quite opaque. I don't really know what it means. It doesn't sound like a violent war. It's quite confusing. And so it actually inhibits. It inhibits comprehension. We have to leave it there.

Dr. Blakeway's research is in a new exhibition at the Ward Law Museum in St Andrews, War Destruction and Reform. The early years of Mary Queen of Scots is on until the September the 20th. Also, I do want to say if you've been affected by anything you've heard in this programme, the BBC Action Line has links to help and support.

Anita will be with you tomorrow, joined by the Labour MP Nas Shah, who will be sharing her live story. Thanks so much for all your stories coming in on vets and other things, and I'll see you soon. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Hi, we're the Vantilican, the identical twin doctor Van Tullochans, Chris and Zand.

In What's Up, Docs, we're diving into the messy, complicated world of health and well-being. We are living in the middle of what I would call a therapeutic revolution, but it can sometimes be hard to know what's really best for us. Do I need to take a testosterone supplement? How can I fix my creaky knees? Why do I get hungry? Is organic food actually better for me? We're going to be your guides through the confusion.

We'll talk to experts in the field and argue about what we've learned and share what we've learned and maybe disagree a fair bit too. No, we won't. What's up, Docs from BBC Radio 4? Listen now on BBC Sounds. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid.

Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story.

From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts.