Woman's Hour - Leigh-Anne Pinnock, Black British Book Festival, Gesbeen Mohammad

Episode Date: October 27, 2023

Leigh-Anne Pinnock has embarked on her own solo career, almost two years after her band, Little Mix, called a hiatus - and has already released two songs. Now she's got a new book out, Believe, all about her life growing up, what it was really like going through the X Factor and how she found her voice. She joins Anita Rani to discuss it all.The Black British Book Festival is now in its third year. It aims to celebrate new and emerging Black British authors across all genres of literature. To find out more, Anita speaks to author and events producer Selina Brown, who launched the festival, and Margaret Busby, Britain’s first black woman publisher, who is also currently President of English PEN, one of the world's oldest human rights organisations that campaigns for freedom of expression. Gesbeen Mohammad is the producer and director of Inside Iran: The Fight For Freedom, a new documentary that has taken more than a year to make. It’s a story told through the eyes of ordinary Iranian women who took to the streets when Mahsa Amini died in September 2022. Gesbeen tells Anita about why these women chose to tell their stories, and what the current situation is in Iran.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Little Mix's Leanne Pinnock has been talking to me about her new memoir, Believe, and she shares an anecdote in the book and also during the interview about the first time she felt really, really seen when she was in the band. And it wasn't actually until 2018. I'm paraphrasing here, but she was performing on stage in Brazil to the crowd, a lot of who were black. And for the first time, they were chanting her name.

And it was the first time that this had ever happened to her. So this morning, I'd like to hear from you about the first time you felt truly seen. The moment maybe you found an inner strength or confidence, when something inside you felt stronger, the moment you started caring less about what other people felt about you because you realised who you are, when you found your own conviction. Was it walking into secondary school and clocking eyes on the person who would become your best mate for life because their nerdy obsession was just as strange as yours?

Or was it walking into the nightclub for the first time and realising on that dance floor you could be whoever you wanted to be and not be judged? Was it coming out of a relationship, finding the people who fully understood your life experience. Was it after reading a certain book or someone talking to you in a way that made you realize you would never allow that to happen to you again? When did you look in the mirror and see your worth? When did you feel seen? Oh, I cannot wait to hear your stories. Get in touch with me the usual way,

84844 is the number to text you can also whatsapp me on 03700100444 or you can email me by going to our website and of course our social media is at BBC Woman's Hour. It's a big powerful talking point but it definitely suits the programme today as we have quite

a line up of powerful women joining me will be Margaret Busby who was not only the youngest person to set up a publishing company, but also the first black woman to do so in the UK. Also, Selina Brown, the founder of the Black British Book Festival, will be here to tell me all about that.

And Gheshbeen Mohamed, BAFTA and Emmy award-winning journalist, will be here to talk to me about her new documentary, Inside Iran, having spent a year getting access to women living in fear of their lives. So get involved. Tell me your stories about when you first felt seen. 84844 is the number to text. But first, Leanne Pinnock, a name you may well know as a member of one of the biggest girl bands in the world, Little Mix. Well, this year,

almost two years since the band announced a hiatus, Leanne has embarked on her own solo career and has already released two songs. Her latest is called My Love. It's good. It's a groove. We're going to be dancing to that very soon. Well, Leanne has spoken publicly before about her experience as the only black member of this global band and as a black woman in the music industry. Well, now she's got a book out, Believe, all about her life growing up, what it was really like going through the X Factor and how she found her voice. Well, she popped into Woman's Hour yesterday and I started by asking her why she decided to write a memoir now. I feel like I touched on my experiences in my documentary so Race, Pop and Power but I felt like there was a lot more that I needed to be open about

I think when you're talking about race such a complex issue like to put that in an hours documentary and also like I really wanted the documentary to not just focus on my experiences but other black women's experiences too um so yeah I just felt like there was a lot more that needed to be said I wanted to go right back into my childhood as well um and I feel like this journey that I've had of like this self-belief and losing my confidence losing parts of my character to regain it again. And I really wanted to share that story and hopefully relate to some people and inspire whoever reads it. It is really relatable. It's very inspiring. And it's just wonderful when you get to understand somebody and put them into context, particularly someone who's been

such a public figure for such a long time. You mentioned quite a few things there that we're going to get into. So you brought up the documentary that you made, which was exploring your identity and race. Was that a sort of game-changing moment for you, making that? I definitely think it was. So I remember when I first spoke up about race and my struggles in the group, and that was 2018, and it fell on deaf ears and I just didn't feel like anyone cared and it just didn't go anywhere and that was it. What happened? Remind me what happened in 2018. uh we each had like our own part of the mag to like speak about a certain issue whatever we felt was like close to our heart and it was the first time i'm like okay i'm gonna i'm gonna just i'm

gonna just say it and even at that time i still hadn't really spoken about race like i would speak to my family on a sunday you know like it would be like my close friends and my and my close family that i would open up to about it but never never in public and never to like random people even to the girls really like the group so yeah it was like a big moment for me and then as I say it just it just fell on deaf ears so that the audience understand like how are you feeling about race when did it become an issue for you because when you read your book you talk about you know this childhood surrounded by your sisters. And we'll talk about sisterhood and how important that is for you.

But actually race wasn't a thing. It's only when you were in Little Mix. So tell, explain how it became obvious to you that you were being treated different or how you were made to feel different. Yeah. So I went to a multicultural school and my parents when they brought me up they never taught me to they never said that my race was going to hold me back like that was never a thing and it wasn't till I got put in the group where these things started to happen and it started right from the x-factor and like things like taking away my lines and that sort of like chipped away at my confidence

and then like noticing that like like fans were like walking past me and like one fan asked me to take a picture of the like of them and another of another one of the group because these little things that kept kept building kept building and I used to get like anxiety before fan events and because I knew that they weren't really there for me it just became apparent that I was kind of like fading and I just felt invisible I felt like I might not as well not have even been there sometimes and I think the moment that I realized this is not all in your head, Leanne, was when I went to Brazil. And I performed in front of a predominantly black crowd for the first time. And we'd been touring, we toured the world for, at that point, nine years, touring the world.

And it was the first time that I felt seen. I'm like, how? How in all this time are people seeing me and the crowd like they chanted my name and like that was my and it's the first chapter of the book that was my awakening and that was like yes like this this isn't all been in your head Leanne and so why did you decide that you needed to talk about it because that's quite you know putting yourself out there to use your platform so then speak so publicly yeah I think the fact that I do have this massive platform and a part of the reason I wanted to do the documentary as well because I have this massive fan base that I feel like why not use that to spread this message you know and like I'm raising children now and like I don't want

them to have to go through some of the struggles that I've had to face and I just want I think when um like the horrific killing of George Floyd and when like obviously the BLM movement was happening and all of a sudden the whole world was talking about race. And I just feel like, I remember saying at that time, I don't want this to just be a moment. It needs to be a movement. It needs to carry on. And I know sometimes with social media, people talk about things and then they stop.

And for me, it's like carrying on that conversation. And I guess as well, that's why I decided to create my foundation, the Black Fund fund my charity because I just wanted to do something you know like I'm sick of talking about it and nothing happening yeah I mean the documentary was really nuanced because you actually talk about colorism as well and there's that really um amazing scene where you're talking to your um husband Andre Gray the footballer about dark-skinned women how difficult was that conversation yeah so he made some he did some stupid tweets when he was younger um and like I

knew I couldn't do this documentary without addressing that like that was not the person that I knew um and I was really shocked and disgusted and I really wanted to speak about it with him, like on the dock and give him a chance to obviously speak about it as well and yeah, I mean, that's not the person he is now and he's learnt a lot and yeah, I'm glad that we addressed it. Yeah, no, I think you are. I mean, so full disclosure, Leanne and I have climbed Mount Kilimanjaro together.

So we've got history. We do. We've had lots of very wonderful, intense conversations climbing a mountain. That is a life changing thing that you go through with somebody when you spend 10 days on a mountain, having to go to the toilet on the side of a mountain together. Oh, gosh. Okay, we don't have to talk about that. But I really, so, you know, watching your documentary was amazing and you having these really honest conversations.

But also I feel like, you know, you are made to comment about so much stuff. Like it was very public when Jessie left Little Mix. And also she talked about the sort of trauma that she faced. And you actually talk in the book about the therapy that you've all had to go through when that happened tell us a bit about that how that yeah um i mean like we were together for so long you know 12 years so if any member left it would have been like it it's like a breakup, you know, like it was really, really sad and it, yeah, a little bit traumatic, I guess, like sisters, you know, and obviously it wasn't, it was a little bit messy after and like,

but yeah, I guess the fact that like me and the girls, like we are are we have this sisterhood and like we stuck together through it um and can we talk about what happened next can we talk about the um accusations of blackfishing oh i know it's difficult so for so for people who don't know uh what blackfishing is it's um some of our listeners who won't know what the term is it's the process of white women embodying borrowing

parroting the aesthetics of blackness and it was an accusation made of Jessie who was in Little Mix and then I suppose it puts you in a

difficult position yeah definitely yeah hard to talk about it is Um, definitely. Um, yeah. Hard to talk about. It is. It is. I mean, I guess I think I read that you said capitalising on aspects of blackness without having to endure the daily realities of the black experience is problematic and harmful to people it is harmful it really is um and i think especially when you look in like into the music industry like the pop industry and like some labels will

like support artists that are doing r&b and black music support white artists doing it but not necessarily dark skin artists black artists yeah and I think that's when it gets frustrating um and yeah I think that was something that like I wanted to talk about in like the documentary as well like um in terms of like when you look at the music industry like why why aren't dark-skinned women appreciated like they should be, you know? And, like, looking at music, like, music is driven by R&B. And black music, it is.

All of it, yeah. And then you look at, like, people behind the scenes as well and, like, me, like, walking into probably white rooms all the time. Like, why is this happening? And, again, another reason why I wanted to do the doc because it's just frustrating. And even after I'd spoken about it all and like I was on to my team like towards the end of the Little Mix days like I don't have to face this anymore I don't have to walk into white rooms it like why you know um and I sometimes I felt like I was literally banging my head against the wall

and the last couple of video shoots like it was it was still the same and honestly like it really was frustrating but I feel like now the fact that I am on my own and I can really control this you know and like my team like has to be a percentage black why not I need to see myself I need to feel represented I need to not feel alone I think you're making change I think you know your voice is being heard and just who you are what you represent it's going to mean so much to so many people so many people and just the fact that you're actually changing the landscape of your industry as well it's a big deal to have the power as a woman to say i want oh it's at 30 percent and what's the percentage well i mean of people that you want to work with you who are black right it's not even just like a certain percentage I think it's just the majority really

you know um I think like having the ability to really do that now um it's important just like in general like behind the scenes and just seeing different industries that are still very heavily like white dominated you know male dominated as well um yeah if I can change that in my team I'm going to blim and do that you know is it annoying that you can't just be a you know a singer and a pop star and just get on with your job oh honestly you have to come and talk about like all of this I'm so glad you said that because it's tiring yeah it's so tiring and I mean I could just not say anything but I want to see change and like through all the experiences that I've had in the group it's like what would I be if I didn't say anything and I didn't try and push for

change and I've always been that type of person like even in school like I love debates I love to stand up for for people like I was the one out of my friendship group that would like stick up for my other friends you know so I feel like I've always kind of had that in me um so yeah but I I do definitely feel like like after all of like these conversations around the book and I'm not gonna speak about race for a while yeah because I don't yeah it is it's a lot it really is yeah what's it do to your mental health how do you keep that in check gosh yeah um it is i have therapy and i think there's a lot that i still need to heal from from those days of feeling very less than and invisible and i think like when you think about all of that and because of the color of my skin like something that like I can't change who I am and being like in this industry and oh gosh yeah it's just a lot

um but also like I'm here to show other black girls that yes you can do it yes you can and I'm raising children as well and I need them to know that they can and like I don't want to be the person that keeps bringing up those times you know like I'm ready to move on from from that and then after after this book and after everything around it I am moving on yeah because I'm owning my power now I was gonna say embodying it. Oh, there's so much to talk to you about. I want to talk a bit about Little Mix and where you are now. But let's go back and talk about just the magic, I guess, because we have seen you become who you are. And it's really interesting that you talk about feeling invisible when you were so visible to all of us from day one.

You know, going to the audition at x factor it's a little mix being created before our eyes it's such a chance wasn't it that the four of you came together because it could have been any number of combinations oh yeah but i think it was fate 100 because how can you put together four girls that just get on so well laugh every day like what you saw was real you know like we genuinely did like do love each other like we are sisters when you think back to the innocence of those four young girls what do you think about gosh I think about when we walked into the studios uh I think it was the first week uh into the XR studios and the pap said to us uh see you on this morning uh tomorrow guys as if to say because the the person that got um sent home always went on this morning the next day so

basically saying that we were going to go home and it was like oh well we showed you didn't we because I feel like we were the favorite we were the favorites to go because people didn't think that girl bands could do well anymore which is just ridiculous and we proved everyone wrong you really did absolutely beyond smashed it yeah when was the first moment you realized we are we've made it we're massive oh I think, I think it was Shout Out To My Ex. Yeah. Yeah, the anthem that changed a lot of people's lives. I feel like it was, we had so many people come up to us, like, this song helped me through this breakup,

this song helped me so much. And I think our other songs, we always wrote songs to inspire people, but that one just kind of travelled. It was just so real. And i think there was one time we won the brit for best single for that song and then that night we got a jet i think it was where did we go oh we got we had you're gonna tell me a private jet story uh are you about to say we got on a Learjet? Wait, wait, wait.

We have been on a jet. Taylor Swift jet, actually. Oh, come on. Yeah. Tell me more. Yeah, so we... Was Tay-Tay on the jet? Wait, we supported Ariana?

No, no, no, sorry. So Taylor Swift brought us on stage. It was around Black Magic times. And we performed Black Magic with her. And then we got on her jet back to another state so yeah that was like and she even had like towels with ts like embroidered on them like how is that amazing gosh they're gonna get towels with leanne printed on come on see it i can see that definitely um how difficult was it then to make the decision after so many years and all the success and all

the fun and the sisterhood to go your separate ways oh really hard actually um we were still super close and yeah I think 12 years in a band like that's a long time um like there was no like arguments you know like we'd all decided that it was the right time for all of us there's like an element of wanting to step out on your own and know that you can do it on your own you know and from being in a group for so long like there was a desire for all of us to do that so yeah i mean it's definitely been the right time but i remember on the last tour as well like we were saying to each other are we doing the right thing here should we be doing this because it just felt like i don't know it's sad it was sad have you broken up or are you on a break we're on a break does that mean you could get back together oh my god yes of course like i think

there is a hundred percent going to be some sort of reunion in the future but we just need to enjoy this time now okay so how how does it been or how different has it been then stepping out as a solo artist gosh it's so different um I think there was always that element of like oh that's my belly um element of anxiety I guess from like like how many fans are going to come along with me you know like realistically not everyone is going to come on this solo journey with me so I think that was like quite a scary thing like how am I going to be perceived and also it's like going from this machine you know like we are used to getting number ones and this and that and like just everything is so big and we came straight from um obviously the x

factor as well so coming from that and going straight into superstardom you know like there wasn't like this obviously like we worked really hard but we almost kind of just went straight into it yeah people knew you straight away yes exactly they exactly. You were famous overnight. They got to know us, exactly. And I'm so lucky for this incredible platform that I've got, but I'm still a new artist. Is that how you feel, starting from scratch? It feels, it's great and it's amazing because I'm putting out music that really resonates with me.

It's great music. Thank you so much. Yeah, and this is just the beginning. Like two songs I've had yeah um but no it's definitely it's a bit it's going to be a build and it's going to be growth and yeah I think it was mentally preparing myself for that because I have been in this industry for 12 years so going back to the beginning like yes it is hard but I'm ready has it been easier to find and figure out who you are going solo it's a good question really good question yes and no yes because I think it's important

for me to just step into these writing rooms and like now I can finally just write what's whatever's heavy on my heart you know I can just pour my heart out, and it's my personal stories. Musically, I think as well, like, I always knew that I wanted to explore, like, these black music genres that I've never been able to really explore before in the group. Obviously, like, we've had influences, but, like, this, now I can fully just embrace like my culture who I am music I love I've listened to growing up so that's been amazing and also the fact that like I've been so open about my experiences and like my identity and I I just do feel like I am owning it more now I was gonna say that you're owning it you're embodying it five years ago I don't think you know and family is really important and you've got twins how are

you juggling it all how am I juggling it all um I mean being a mum is the most incredible blessing I've ever been blessed with like I can wake up every morning look at them and you know what I'm good you know like these little things that bother me day to day like I am raising like two little angels and oh that to me is is the most important thing in my life and I'm just oh it's just so lucky man but yeah how do I juggle it I'm still working that out to be honest because I don't think you ever really have balance you're always kind of like searching for it but I think it's a testament to women man we just do it we can just handle all of this stuff that's thrown at us yeah so what's next gosh just more music I'm excited

to show people different sides of me this is just the beginning planning a tour yeah that that for me I think would be the moment where I'm like yeah this is just unreal like I can't wait to perform to fans they're there just for me like that's going to be such a beautiful experience yes it will be and they will be chanting your name leanne pinnock there and her book believe is out now and jesse nelson former bandmate in little mix that we mentioned in that interview has previously responded to blackfishing claims publicly saying that her intention was never ever to offend people of color with her video and her song and And at the beginning of the programme, I explained that Leanne had that very powerful moment at a concert in Brazil where she felt, for the first time, fully seen.

And lots of you were getting in touch about your own experiences of that. Morning, Anita. I finally felt seen as an artist, a female wildlife artist, when a few years ago I had the honour of a solo exhibition in London. I had a portfolio of work that I'd put my heart and soul into. When I went for a preview walk around, it actually made me cry. I'm in my 60s and have been a practising artist all my working life. It felt so special to have the work celebrated. There was even a red carpet on the opening night. I felt 10 feet tall and absolutely amazing. Debbie, thank you so much for that message.

84844 is the number to text. Lots of your messages coming in and I'll be coming back. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. I have been joined by three very powerful women in the studio um and we are going to carry on the discussion about various things but first uh let me tell you that at 7 30 this evening some lucky people will be able to hear even more of leanne because she's launching her book at the opening ceremony of the black british book festival at the south bank center in london it's now in its third year. The aim of the festival is to celebrate new and emerging

Black British authors across all genres of literature. Author and events producer Selina Brown came up with the idea in 2020. The festival is now the largest of its kind in Europe and she joins me now along with Margaret Busby, Britain's first Black woman publisher, editor of the groundbreaking anthologies Daughters of Africa and New Daughters of Africa and currently president of English Pen, one of the world's oldest human rights organizations that campaigns for freedom of expression. Selina and Margaret, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you for having us. My absolute pleasure. Selina, I'm going to come to you first.

What made you want to set up this festival? I mean, I'm an author myself. I'm a children's book author. And I published my first children's book over lockdown. And it was very exciting. A very, very hard process to self-publish a book. Donna got the illustrations, wrote the book. And when it came time to distribute the book, I faced a lot of barriers and challenges.

And I was like, hold on, hold on a minute, what's going on here? And I spoke to other black authors and writers, and they were also experiencing these challenges as well. And so I thought, you know, something has to change here. So I started the Black British Book Festival in response to those challenges that I was facing. What were the challenges? So one in particular is that my book is called Nina the Green Juice. And it features a young black girl on the front cover with a big, massive, curly, beautiful afro. And I got told by somebody in industry that the book wouldn't sell because of the girl on the

front cover that there wasn't a market for that book what year was this this was in this was like three years ago um and obviously that's shocking you know because I know the people that I know read I know that there's a big market for black literature in the UK and the fact that somebody in the industry saying that it points to to the systematic issues that exist within the industry. Hence the reason I started the Black British Book Festival because the visibility of Black British authors, unfortunately, isn't out there. Sometimes publishers don't know how to market these amazing authors. So we exist as a platform to really celebrate

and put Black authors on the map. So this weekend we're launching the festival at the Southbank Centre. And we have some amazing authors taking place. They're like Clive Myrie, Gary Young, Dawn Butler, and obviously Leanne Pinnock tonight. And we're really celebrating Black literature. We have masterclasses and

workshops and children's zones at the festival and it's all free. So when you and congratulations in its third year that that lots of people hearing that might have been very shocked to hear that that's what that's what was said to you what other things have other black authors said to you that were the challenges that they faced? Challenges. So one of the main challenges is being too black. And I get that. What does that mean?

What does that mean? It means that people are scared to speak their truth because some publishers, again, don't believe there's a market for black experiences that unfortunately the conception is that, you know, white people buy books and the white people might not be able to connect to this these stories and so forth and then they won't sell so they're scared to publish these books because they don't speak to they're

not palatable they're not easy to read for certain audiences and so black people black authors black writers are like do I have to water down my work in order to get into the industry like am I being too black and it's scary that we're saying that in 2023 you know so that's one of the the issues that are faced by um black authors and then obviously the natural barriers um that exist for other like working class people but one of the barriers that I get that get told to me a lot is that agents and publishers are saying that we already have one so that means you know we already have one romance writer already so we can't take you one right now we already have one children's black

author so we can't take you one right now and you know having just one isn't enough because one person doesn't represent the whole of the black experience you can't just have one and especially when there's a list of so many different white people so why is it just one black person so these are the barriers that are these seen and unseen barriers that stem all the way from the boardroom all the way down to the bookshelf so it's not just obviously it's like from the from the top level so we're here as a black british book festival to really kind of um challenge and to shape and shake up the industry and that's why i started the book festival well we're sitting in

the presence of greatness because right sitting next to you is margaret busby uh who first black woman to set up a publishing house back in the 60s. Margaret, what do you make of what Selina's saying? You know, you were doing this back then. It's sad to hear that the same things that were issues decades ago are still seen as issues now. I mean, well, I particularly have been, at the moment, looking back over more than half a century because I'm about to put together a collection of my own writings that's going to be published by Hamish Hamilton in a year's time.

So I'm having to look at things I was writing about 50 years ago. And a lot of the things are still the same. And what worries me is that there's this divide still between the writers and the publishers, as if there's us and them. And we have to be on both sides. As you say, I started publishing in 1967, before anybody here was born.

And the year before me, there was a publisher, the first Caribbean publisher in this country, New Beacon Books, started by John LaRose with his partner, Sarah White. And it's really empowering to think of how less rich the literature and publishing in this country would be without those black-led institutions and the contributions of women of colour. I started in 67. In 69, Jessica Huntley of Bogle Liberture started her publishing house and bookshop as well. I mean, New Beacon was also a bookshop, which still exists now. And they had a book launch last night. They're very much a hub of the community. So there are contributions that have been made decade after decade. I mean, I'm trying to think of some of the other names.

Well, back in the 70s, there was a collective called Black Ink. Then there was Black Woman Talk, which was a group of women, including Bernadine Evaristo, who were publishing poetry and so on. Then an important initiative was the International Book Fair of Radical Black and Third World Books, which is an important gathering that happens initially every year from about 1982 to 1995. And you'd go into the hall where the book fair was taking place

and you'd see it packed full of people who were going to the bookstores because they knew they'd find books that would be of interest to them. And reflect their stories. Well, I'd like to take you back to the 60s, if I may, and ask you what it was like setting up that company back then, what that experience was like for you. Well, for for me it was what i just did i i was i conceived the company straight out of university so i left university i graduated when i was 20 so i had no experience no money i didn't know what i was meant to do what the conventions were i just knew what i wanted to do so how did you know what you wanted to do here we are we're talking about you, the first time people feel seen, feeling their conviction.

How did you know that at such a young age? Well, I knew I was interested in books, particularly poetry, which is what we started with. I knew that I had had my whole education in this country, my schooling, my university, without reading a single book by a black writer. And so I knew I wanted to find some of those books. The first novel I published was a book called The Speaker Sat by the Door by Sam Greenlee, an African American. And that was really a diversity parable that's still relevant today about an organization that,

in this case, the CIA, who see they don't have any black employees, so they employ somebody. Everybody can see that they're diverse, if you like. So it's something that has been there for decades. And I thought that we were getting beyond that. I mean, for example, in 1987, Werner Wilkin started a company called Tamarin Books to publish children's books, where children could see themselves reflected, could feel a part of the industry. And I think it's a shame if that's kind of all been kind of superseded by something. But I have a feeling that in the last couple of years,

post the Black Lives Matter movement rising, there are more publishers who feel, well, we have to do something. Well, after the death of George Floyd, 100 writers banded together to form the Black Writers Guild. And there was a flurry of books by black authors. I just wondered if that if you feel that's continued, Selena. I mean, there's definitely black authors being published right now.

And so, yes, it's continuing. But I feel like it's slowed down a lot as well. I think obviously back then and obviously George Floyd passed away unfortunately everybody band together, it was all we're going to commit this, we're going to do this and it was a big massive movement and a lot of energy and some of that has died down unfortunately, it has and it naturally

would do but we're here to as the Black British Book Festival to say that you know, black literature is all year round, every single day it's not just for Black History you know black literature is all year round every single day it's not just for Black History Month as well it's all year round and that black voices black experiences matter not just for this generation for generations to come. I think it's interesting that you have you self-published yeah is that because you couldn't get published? I self-published because I wanted full creative control over my book.

And it was done within lockdown as well. And so I had the time in order to invest into self-publishing, understanding the platform, writing, getting the illustrator and so forth. So it was just the easiest step to do within that moment. Since then, I have gone on to get a two book deal with a major publisher. Thank you very much. And yeah, I think and talking about being seen, that made me feel seen. The fact that, you know, even though I experienced all the challenges with the girl, with my book, Nina the Green Juice, with the girl with the big afro.

I then went on to write a book that got seen and was, you know, has been published. And you're doing incredible work. Margaret, when you set up the publishing company, your partner was Clive Allison, who's a male business partner. And I read some, I guess you can smile, but at the time, I don't know how you dealt with it, but where people, how were you viewed within that relationship? Well, I was, it was viewed as if he was always my boss, either that or I was sleeping with him or something. Actually, I was married to somebody

else, a jazz musician. But the impression was that we were not equal. In fact, I even found out many years later that in South Africa, our books were banned, not because of the content, they would have banned them because of the content, but because of it being an interracial workforce. So it was, you know, that was what society was like. And we had a lot of publicity, and it was almost as if people were saying, you know, African girl can read. You know, I was a sort of freak. So it certainly was noticeable, but I suppose in that era era it was to be expected.

What still needs to happen to get black authors proper recognition and visibility? I think that it comes down to the publishers. I think investing in more talent to sit in the publishing companies is definitely the first way to go from the boardroom so we need more black editors we need more black publicists we need more black illustrators we need all that from the publisher side and then the marketing I think there's a we can't in terms of public relations we can't have one size fits all when targeting all communities like we have to have a marketing companies within certain publishers that speak directly and target directly different communities so that's one thing as well

and also just investing in talent and not just investing in talent from London from across the UK you know and investing in young people as well is definitely the way forward. I mean Margaret it must be inspiring to be I mean we are inspired sitting in your presence, but to be sitting next to Selina and hearing what she has to say, and surely this is positive. It's brilliant to hear what you're doing. And I think the other point to make is that a book by a black writer isn't necessarily only going to be of interest to a black reader. And that's what it is. In the same way as, you know, I can read a book by a white writer.

It's true. So anybody can read a book by a black writer. And it's not that they sell less well. All those judgments that are made, that you're proving wrong, Salira. Yeah, 100%. And I want to just say that as well, I wouldn't be here without you, Margaret.

You know, you paved the way for me to exist right now. And all the challenges, the sacrifices that you went the way for us for me to exist right now and all the challenges the sacrifices that you went through has allowed us to exist so thank you for doing the work that you're doing it's incredible important to recognize it means a lot for me to hear you say that but I you know there are many others who have walked the same walk as I have and I think you know that's one of the reasons why I did the anthologist that you mentioned Daughters of Africa and New Daughters of Africa because we're all helping each other and one of the reasons why I did the anthologist that you mentioned, Daughters of Africa and New Daughters of Africa, because we're all helping each other. And one of the things I was saying to you earlier, Stine, about New Daughters of Africa, there's an award that comes out of that because everybody who's in it waived their fees.

And together with the commissioning editor and the publisher, Candid Lacey, we put together this scholarship so that a woman student from Africa gets a free course of study at SAS. Absolutely incredible. I would like you both to stay right there if I may get you to just stay there. Margaret Busby and Selina Brown, thank you for now. The Black British Book Festival is running throughout today and tomorrow at

London Southbank Centre. We've had a message in from someone saying, yet again, Woman's Hour inspires. Current interview has given me the idea of setting up an older women's new writers group. Amazing, why not? 84844 is the number to text. Please keep your thoughts coming in. Lots of your stories about when the first time

you felt seen. Someone has said, advocate for women who stammer at conferences for the stammering community. A lovely young woman got up at a session for all conference participants and said I was her inspiration as the woman who stammers. I felt seen. It's all I've ever wanted. Now, when Masa Gina Amini died in September 2022

after she allegedly flouted the country's strict dress code, widespread demonstrations erupted across Iran. Social media was awash with videos of people protesting. But how much do we know of the personal stories of those who took to the streets? Well, Gheshbin Mohammed is a BAFTA and Emmy award-winning journalist and documentary producer. Her newest project, which she's produced and directed, is Inside Iran, The Fight for Freedom, a documentary which has taken more than a year to make. It's a story told through the eyes of ordinary Iranian women who, at great personal risk,

even though most of their identities are hidden in the documentary, have chosen to tell their stories. Gheshbeen, or Ghesh, as I know you'd like to be referred to. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you for having me. Harrowing and compelling documentary, and it includes several ordinary Iranian women telling their stories. Why did they want to speak to you? I think by the time we sort of got filming with these women inside Iran, we spoke to, we followed the lives of four women inside Iran. By that point, severe crackdown was already underway inside Iran

following the widespread protests. And I think they wanted to speak to us based on what they've told me, is that speaking to us was another form of protest for them. It was taking back the power, freedom of speech doesn't really exist in Iran. Not if you want to say anything about, you know, the human rights situation, or if you want to criticize the regime. So essentially, this, I mean, this film was their way of protesting. And in doing so they were risking, you know, imprisonment, but also potentially their lives. How did you get the footage?

How did you get the cameras in there? I can't go into great detail about that purely for security reasons of our local filmmaker who we call Hafez in the film but we largely filmed with mobile phones because everyone has a mobile phone so you can sort of avoid detection.

And in terms of sort of, you know, getting footage out, that's something that I think revealing that would endanger Hafez. So I think, yeah, that's what is left for background conversation probably. Why did you want to make this documentary? I've always been interested in human rights and freedom. Why did you want to make this documentary? for over 44 years, as one of the contributors says in the documentary. So it's obviously the oppression isn't something that's new. It's been going on for a really long time. Obviously, the death of Mahsa Jina Amini triggered all that sort of anger,

all that upset with the regime. And that's when a vast amount of people in Iran went and took to the streets. As well as interviewing women within Iran, you also talked to a couple of women who have escaped, Fatima and Rosina. Tell us about them, how they escaped and what their lives are like now. Yeah, I mean, they have extremely compelling stories because and although they have escaped um there are risks involved um with that too um so uh because they're on camera they haven't hidden their identities exactly um so fatima's uh family um fatima's brother died um was shot um in the protests and he sadly passed away um and ever since he died, the regime has been cracking down on the family

because for essentially each death that occurred, and there were over 500 deaths over the course of the protests, each death essentially caused more people coming to the streets, which obviously the regime doesn't want. So when they had a So when Fatima's, when they had a funeral for Fatima's brother, huge amounts of people turned up and the regime wasn't very happy about that. So they started essentially cracking down on the family, telling them not to have a funeral, telling them not to have any sort of commemorations. Fatima was at the time still

inside Iran and continued to speak out against the regime. And that obviously caused a lot of problem for the family. So her story is obviously, you know, one of continuous pressure that, you know, has continued to this very day. And even though she has left Iran, her family continues to face a lot of pressure from the regime. And the other contributor that you mentioned, Regina, she was actually, she's from the same town as Mahsajina Amini and was there for the initial protests that happened after the funeral of Masajina Amini. And she was there treating the wounded protesters on the ground because they were being shot with pellet bullets at that point and obviously live rounds. And she was treating those that were shot with pellet bullets. And she one day receives a call from the intelligence services in Iran and says,

you know, you need to come see us. We have access to the contents of your phone. We know what you've been doing. She then contacts this sort of secret network that helps protesters escape Iran. And she sort of walked through the mountains between Iraq and Iran and got herself into Kurdistan in the north of Iraq. And where she's living now. But she's I mean, she has sort of she's, she was a woman inside Iran who faced a lot of, you know, sort of repression in that when she divorced her husband, she lost access to her son. Yeah. Because the law in Iran or custody and divorce laws prefer the man. So women are essentially effectively treated like second class citizens. And both of, I mean, even though they are out, I mean,

forced exile isn't one of the most pleasant ways of existing. No one wants to leave their family behind. Well, it's a very poignant bit at the end of the documentary is when you realise that you wonder at what cost. They are fighting for their human rights, but at what cost to them? And she says she'll never see her son again. And just silently weeps. Yeah, it's devastating.

It's really tragic. And I think especially for Regina, given she sort of escaped herself, she's sort of stuck in this world, in Iraq, with no real status or refugee status or anything. Her life is effectively on hold. You mentioned that Hemen is the sort of parallel story you have going through the documentary about helping people escape across the border. Is he at risk by talking to you and by exposing that he's doing this?

Heman is interesting because he left Iran in 2017 having been an activist and he was threatened and his family was threatened. So he decided to escape himself in the same way that he is now helping others escape. And he is already known to the authorities. He's part of a Kurdish opposition group that operates in the border between Iran and Iraq. And so he's already known to the authorities and his activities are very much known. What I do know is that they have, you know, I mean, they have been under a lot of pressure to stop helping protesters from inside Iran because the regime doesn't want these people coming out

and telling sort of their truth to the world. I want to ask you about Amita Garavant, who we've read about in the newspapers recently and who you talk about in the documentary. She is 16 years old and in a coma what what happened to her allegedly well she's um she was allegedly um i mean activists say that she was beaten on a tehran metro um because she was unveiled by the morality police um as i understand that hasn't been entirely verified yet um but the but she essentially is now, the state media reported recently that she suffered a brain death

now. So obviously, a lot of the people that we speak to inside Iran are drawing obviously a lot of similarities to the way that Massa, Gina Amini passed away. Obviously, the case of Armita is very recent. You know, this all happened in October this year. But it's, you know, what our contributors, you know, will say is that, you know, they're back to square one. What they saw happening September 22 is, you know, happening again. Well, it is a very powerful documentary. It's called Inside iran the fight

for freedom and it's going to be broadcast on sunday on itv1 at 10 20 p.m um so yes gesh been and power power to you for for making it thank you and you know as i mentioned in your intro your bafta and emmy winning you know when did you as we've started the program talking about you know finding your conviction and your maybe the moment you felt seen when when was when did that happen to you when did you realize that this is what you wanted to do to tell these stories um I've I mean I've always wanted to tell these stories um um and yeah sort of and highlight the voices of others who are repressed um i'm i'm a refugee myself um and and and i understand what it you know feels like to live in those circumstances

um to a degree obviously i've lived here for i'm in the west for a very long time so um but yeah i think giving a voice to people who are repressed is my sort of like going to be my life's work. How about you, Margaret? Well, I can remember very clearly when I was still at school and I was reading all sorts of literary magazines. And I came across one on the cover of which was this photograph of a South African woman called Nene Jabavu, who was making ripples in British literary world. And that was the moment I thought, well, it is possible. She wrote, I think, the first autobiography by a South African woman. She was an editor of a magazine called the News Tran. And she was somebody who made me feel I could be in a similar position.

The power of feeling seen when you see somebody else. Exactly. And you think, ah, there you go. I could be that. Yeah. I think in terms of being seen, I would put it down to my grandmother, honestly. Like just growing up with her.

She came over when she was 19 years old from Jamaica. What's her name? Phyllis Russell. 19 years old from Jamaica, Wind what's her name um phyllis russell 19 years old from jamaica wind rush leaving all your family behind to come to a cold cold country where you know nobody working in factories every single day just to make a little bit of money to send back home and i'm saving enough money to send for your sister to come over you know and because of her i'm here so every time i hold my book in my hand, every time I see other black authors,

every time I do the work that I do, I know it's because of the sacrifices of my grandmother because she made it possible for me to be here and belong here as well. Because sometimes, you know, when she came over here, I knew that she felt like she didn't belong. But now I'm trying to obviously through the festival, we're establishing that people do belong.

We belong here. Black voices belong here. Black experiences belong here because we come from here. And so, yeah, big up Nanny, man. Big up Nanny. How about for you, Gishman? You said that you're a refugee. When was that moment for you personally where you felt,

okay, I belong? I think, I mean, I think I'm still waiting for that probably and lots of people getting in touch uh with their own experiences um June Kewal says I graduated with a bachelor's at 60 after that I knew who I was I'm now 70 and I've never looked back getting nods of approval in the studio here. Aisha says the first time I felt seen was when I saw my brother walking in the wrong direction as he was due for a job interview. I told him if he didn't turn around, I would go and steal his job. He shrugged and said, I wouldn't get it. So I held my head high, strutted past him, walked straight to the shop. I worked in that green green grocers for a whole year and only left

as i'd lined up a better job i was 13 wow oh aisha that's powerful um here we go another one here during my 10 minute career interview at university i've filled in a form and wrote i like to travel and do a bit of good i'd like to travel and do a bit good a lady said go and teach in africa and i did i went on to have a life career in helping develop poor communities in africa elsewhere it was life-changing that's from johnny um i made sense of myself when i was 18 read women on the edge of time by margie percy when i left my small village and went to university i discovered a whole new world of politics and i think that was when i found myself and that's from sylvie inffield. So it can happen at any age, can't it, Margaret? It can, yes.

And I think I have to pay tribute to my family as well, because I think we take sort of inspiration from what our parents, our mothers, our grandmothers give us and the strength that we have from people who are in the same situation as we are. I would like to thank all three of you for joining me this morning. I'm Woman's Hour, Gheshmi, Margaret, Selina. Good luck with the event this weekend.

And thanks to all of you for listening. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. It was about 2.30 in the morning. And every time in that moment of waking, I would see the man standing in the corner. It's here. Uncanny. Season 3. She was just walking, non-responsive, without talking, without blinking.

It seemed like something had just taken over. Terrifying real-life encounters with the supernatural. What I saw in that house frightens me, and I wish I'd never seen it. Listen on BBC Sounds, if you dare. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.