Woman's Hour - Lesbian bars, Period Tracker Apps, World champion boxer, Lauren Price MBE

Episode Date: May 17, 2024

After going viral on social media earlier this year, new bar La Camionera is planning to open a permanent inclusive venue for “lesbians and their friends”. Reporter Martha Owen has been following as they prepare to open and hears why these spaces are important from DJ Yvonne Taylor, event organisers Jess Whiting Boult and Tabs Benjamin, and poet Joelle Taylor. And Anita Rani is joined by filmmakers Erica Rose and Elina Street, creators of The Lesbian Bar Project, to discuss their award-winning series about lesbian bars in the USA and Germany.Period tracker apps claim to help women to predict whenthey might start their period and calculate the best time to attempt to conceive. The Information Commissioner's Office has said that a third of women have used one. A report out this week, however, has raised serious questions about the way in which this data is used. The study, by Kings College London and University College London, examined the privacy policies and data safety labels of 20 of the most popular of these kind of apps. The authors say it is the most extensive evaluation of its kind completed to date. Anita discusses the findings and implications with BBC Technology Reporter Shiona McCallum and the lead author of the study Dr Ruba Abu-Salma from Kings College London.                                                                                                                               Director Amanda Nell Eu discusses her award-winning debut feature film, Tiger Stripes. An imaginative coming-of-age story about a girl who transforms into a jungle cat, it was Malaysia’s official entry to the 2024 Oscars. But this success came at a cost when the film was censored. Last weekend the Olympic Gold Medallist, Lauren Price MBE, became Wales’ first female boxing world champion – winning the WBA, IBO, and Ring Magazine World Titles in spectacular fashion in her hometown of Cardiff by beating WBA welterweight champion Jessica McCaskill. She joins Anita to talk about her achievement, her diverse sporting career and her legacy.Presented by Anita Rani Producer: Louise Corley Studio Engineer: Bob Nettles

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. Now, when you start your period, you're leaving behind your childhood to step into a new phase of life. You feel different, your body morphs into something new and people around you may start to treat you differently. Basically, everything changes. Well, a new Malaysian coming of age film examines just this, but the girl changes into a tiger. It's surprisingly relatable. It's been described as mean girls crossed with a horror. You'll be hearing from the director, Amanda Nell-Yu.

Also, we're taking a look at the lesbian bar scene, which has declined dramatically over the last few decades. But we will be taking you into one during the programme. What's everyone having? I'm buying. And my guest, Lauren Price, MBE, might make you feel a bit lacking in your own sporting ability, but she will inspire us all. She'll be telling us how it feels to be a world champion boxer.

And of course, I would like to hear from you about anything you hear on the programme. Your thoughts and opinions welcome. The text number 84844. You can email me via our website or you can WhatsApp me or send me a voice note. It's 03700 100 444. But first, do you use a period tracker? These are apps where you enter information about your menstrual cycle, including your mood, amount of flow, sleep hours and energy levels. They claim to help you to predict when you might start your period

and calculate the best time to attempt to conceive. The Information Commissioner's Office has said that a third of women have used one. Are you one? A report out this week, however, has raised serious questions about the way in which this data is used. The study by King's College London and University College London examined the privacy policies and data safety labels

of 20 of the most popular of these kind of apps. The authors say it's the most extensive evaluation of its kind completed to date. Well, to tell us more about it, I'm joined by the BBC technology reporter, Shona McCallum, and the lead author of the study, Dr. Ruba Abu-Salma from King's College London. And, of course, tell me your your thoughts 84844 is that number once again Shona and Dr Ruba morning to you both Shona I'm going to come to you first tell us more about these apps how do they work well yes it lets women put their data in so they

can look at when their periods are coming tracking symptoms like cramps, maybe how many days they bleed for. And of course, one of the main things that women report success with is trying to get pregnant. They're extremely popular. Millions of women are using them across the world. And you can imagine the amount of health data that then is building up as you're putting them in every day. I have to say I have used one myself and you're getting daily prompts where you are putting in your symptoms and you're able to see then over a calendar month or year the different trends that you have in your body and you might be able to identify okay well that was a particularly stressful time, my period was late or you know when is the most fertile window. So a lot of women

using these to really get more insights into their health. But of course, they do raise these significant data and privacy issues, which is what this study has been looking at. Well, we know why lots of women use them, because they're really useful. Yeah, they're just, they offer a technological solution to something that's quite difficult to keep on top of. But Dr. Ruber, let me come to you. What did you find then? Tell me about the research.

Yes. So we analyzed the privacy policies and the data safety sections of the 20 most popular apps in the US and the UK. We also inspected the privacy related features offered by those apps. And then we found a lot of inconsistencies between what the privacy policies say, and the features offered by those apps. What do you mean? So for example, a lot of privacy policies say that data can get deleted, but the apps don't actually offer clear and usable deletion mechanisms. So it isn't clear what data gets deleted. And sometimes you also have applications that don't offer any data deletion mechanisms. So the user needs to email the

developer of the app to delete their data. And that depends on how responsive the developer is. If you can find the email address in the first place. And if you can find the email address in the first place, absolutely. So where does the data go, first of all? So it depends. It isn't clear. But the privacy policies say that a lot of data and a lot of data types get gathered. They are stored on the servers of these applications. Sometimes they're actually shared with third parties outside. So for example, if you have an app that is being developed by a UK developer, those developers can use third party services for a specific purpose of use,

and then they can share the data with those third parties that are based in countries outside the UK. So you have different data protection laws that apply to this data, depending on where the data is being stored. So, for example, if you have a user that is using a UK-based app, their data might get shared with a third party in the US who can share this data with a law enforcement agency in the US without them knowing. And this could have actually dire safety consequences to the user, especially if the third party is being based in a state where abortion is criminalized or stigmatized.

Okay, so let's get into this then. Let's talk about why this should be a concern in your view. So abortion is criminalized in some states in the US following the overturning of Roe v. Wade. It is still a criminal offense in the UK because two physicians need to approve whether a woman can agency where abortion is criminalized, the woman might get a life sentence. Also, it is not only about the data that the user inputs, but also the inferences being made by the app. So sometimes based on your behavior, the app might make some inferences about you. So for example, you might miss a period, the app might mistaken that for having for being pregnant, and then the following month, you get your period. So most probably that user either got a miscarriage or an abortion. And that inference might be shared by a law enforcement agency that

could deduce that person might have had an abortion, so they might get criminalized. Also, even if abortion is not criminalized, it might get criminalized in the future. And because of the covert gathering of a lot of sensitive data by these apps that get retained without people really understanding where the data gets deleted, they might get criminalized in the future because laws change. Some women will love using these apps, Rube, and sharing data they might say is just a small price to pay. What would you say to that? Definitely. So in the paper, we're arguing that those apps are beneficial. They're cheap.

You don't need to go to the GP. They manage your sexual and reproductive health in a very cheap way. And the UK Information Commissioner's Office have found that half of the women in the UK were concerned about the privacy and security of the peer tracking apps in the wake of Roe v. Wade. We don't want people to stop using peer tracking apps, but we want to follow a human-centered design to these apps because the vast majority of developers self-identify as male or men. They're not necessarily fully aware of the unique privacy and safety concerns and needs of the users

who use female health apps. And without really talking to people before designing those apps, it will be problematic. So this is what we found. Shona, the reports looked into 20 apps, all the research. You approached some of these companies. What did they tell you? Yes, that's right. I heard from, no surprises, the biggest apps, Flow and Clue, who told me that they do everything to keep data safe. It's kind of at the heart of their responsibilities around privacy. They said that they handle it extremely seriously. And to the law enforcement point,

they say that they won't hand over data that would be sensitive and that would compromise women. And, you know, they wouldn't disclose it to any authority. Now, I think that's where the debate really lies because, of course, if you are issued with a warrant or in the US a subpoena, then the authorities probably have precedent and more power over the apps. And so there could be a situation, we haven't seen any situations as yet where these companies are kind of forced into handing over the data but you know they've told me that their goal is to

build applications that allow women to be confident in sharing their information and you know building up this health record over time. I think there has been a lot of concern, as Ruba said, since Roe versus Wade, where women have been deleting these apps because of the concerns that they feel that perhaps in the future their information could be used, especially if they were to have an abortion in a state where that's no longer legal and you know perhaps it could be used in a legal case against them to help build that case that they didn't in fact break the law in that state but so far you know

we haven't actually seen that happening it's just very much a concern at the moment. So this morning, Dr. Ruber, there'll be lots of people listening who will be on these apps, might be feeling a bit panicked or not. What rights do women have under GDPR laws? And does it all come down to having to read the small print? So people do have the right to access whatever data they provide the apps with. They have the right to delete their data and to be forgotten. All of this is being explained in the privacy policies.

However, privacy policies are very long and the vast majority of people really don't have the legal expertise to understand what the privacy policies say. Also, the privacy policies are meant to be read at the beginning of using the app. So when people start using the app, they will most probably forget about the privacy policies. So this is why we, like in the paper, we are advocating for the design of mechanisms and features that people can access while using the app without the need to go and read the privacy policies. Also, the privacy policies change over time without notifying people. Brenda's just been in touch saying, why risk your privacy on an app?

A calendar and a notebook is simpler and safer. Maybe some people listening agree. Dr. Ruba Abu-Salma and Shona, thank you so much, Shona McCallum. Thank you for speaking to me about that. Some of you getting in touch about this. Hi, Woman's Hour. Great to hear about data sharing

with period tracking apps. One issue I've had is being able to access your own data. I was an early user of a particularly popular period tracking app and it was great to start with. It didn't have any of the pink and flowers and the conception focus that the others had found and it was all free but as time has gone on and it's become more popular they've introduced paywalls

to various aspects of the app including seeing your information from further back than six cycles ago it seems completely bizarre to me that they would charge you to see your own data like that and julia says i regard all privacy policies as meaningless. Even when we're assured that our data will not be shared, any organisation can be hacked. 84844 is the number. Keep your thoughts coming in. Now, in February,

a new lesbian bar opened up in East London. La Camionera planned to open a few days a week in a small space in Broadway Market. But after going viral on social media, hundreds turned up with crowds filling the streets on opening night. Maybe that's not surprising, as there seems to be only two or three permanent lesbian bars in the UK, despite a thriving scene across the whole country

with regular events, pop-ups and social groups. Well, Camionera is reopening. Its owners want it to be inclusive. It should be a space for lesbians and their friends. So this includes trans and non-binary people, as well as a daytime space for the local community, for families and young people. Reporter Martha Owen went to find out

why these spaces are so important to people and what this new venue opening up means for the LGBT community. We've got the freshly plastered walls and we've got all this building stuff in the garden that we're about to get rid of. And we've got furniture, we've got tables and chairs. So that's something. That's good, you might need it, so that's good to get it in. Hi, I'm Alex Loveless and we're at La Caminera in Hackney.

Hi, I'm Clara. I'm Alex's girlfriend and I'm helping to set up the bar. So what was it going to be at first, that opening night that you were planning? It was just meant to be a 30-person kind of drinks and tapas. It was really DIY, I'd say, like setting up. We really had no idea what to expect. So we were downstairs serving drinks and I don't think anyone realised how busy it was upstairs because there was such a limited capacity in the bar

until someone was like, have you been upstairs? And that was the point where we went upstairs and we saw this whole street full of people. And we were like, OK, this is absolutely massive. When you're open and you're you're running who is La Camionera for people keep asking me to pin down my identity and I kind of keep refusing to do so because I don't think it's very relevant I just hope that that just kind of like helps inform the space we've got a lot of questions asking like is it trans inclusive is it bisexual inclusive and I'd just rather set a precedent that these kind of spaces are by default inclusive rather

than have to kind of laboriously tack on every sort of identity that's included I think it's better to just assume the best in people and that by default it's inclusive so if people feel like the space is for them then it's for them yeah exactly as Alex said we didn't want to be excluding anyone but we also didn't want to be like listing our identity categories it's like putting it really broadly it's for lesbians and their friends and anyone who identifies with that label is welcome here have you had any backlash to the bar? You know, like people who think that lesbians should have a separate space that's just for lesbians and doesn't include other identities? Yeah, a few people have said that,

but I don't think that's the thing that we're going for here. Yeah, this space is about inclusivity. We're calling it a lesbian bar, but it's definitely about being as inclusive as possible to anyone that wants to come here and we just want to create a really nice space to come to basically especially because people often read me as like a cis man or like you know straight guy whatever like I just don't want to have to go and answer a million questions about why I am the way I am or friends with

the people I am you know I just don't really understand it is that important to have a space where you're not being questioned when you go in like it's just you're there? Yeah especially like in a bar space it's a place to come and like relax it's not such a political sphere I think it's important to have these spaces that are kind of break from that. It was going to those kinds of spaces when I was younger that helped me kind of figure out my sexuality and my identity. And I know that's been super important for loads of people in terms of just having those spaces to go to and to be around people that are like your community and that are like you. But also just having a space where you know that you're safe and that your community can come together and just like chill out and have a nice time. And it's not really that deep. It's just like chill out and have a nice time and it's not

really that deep it's just like a really nice space to be and that's what we want to create I think that's really important. So my name's Jess I'm a butch lesbian and I run Dirt Dykes. How would you describe Dirt Dykes? We run cabarets, we run club nights and we run pop-up bar takeovers that are exclusively for queer people of marginalised genders. I wanted to ask about the name as well, because dyke is a word that some people find offensive. So why did you choose it for your events? I think there's a long history in the queer community of people reclaiming words and reclaiming languages. I think a lot of people don't get it, but as queer people, reclaiming that language, if it's something that you feel comfortable to do,

is really important. As a butch woman, I would be going out and find myself in a lot of very unsafe situations. And I really, really needed a space that was for people like me. And I was wondering, why is no one doing this? There's such a need for this. Did you feel like it was important to have something up north in Leeds? I could see those spaces happening down in London and I wasn't aware of anything in the north that was similar at all. So it felt really, really silly not to just set one up up north and do it myself and provide a space for Northern Dykes like me.

Would you tell me where we are at the moment? Yeah, we're in quite a fabulous dressing room backstage at the Clapham Grand the current home of Butch Please. Hi my name's Tabs I run Club Night Butch Please for lesbian trans and non-binary people in celebration of all degrees of butch. If we don't keep these spaces for ourselves what have we got? Straight people can go out to all the other bars and clubs. But Butch Please is one night a month and that's our space and our time and I do think it's

important that we keep it for ourselves so that we can feel free and relaxed. Queer women particularly, we don't get to express our sexuality in the world so to come to a space where it's okay to express your sexuality I think is incredibly powerful. Shall I do you the poem?

I would love some poem. Oh Maryville, song of loose shirt, You button-down boy, you thick rod of irony, Oh Maryville, you sawn-off miniskirt, You tights torn into choir, Oh Maryville, oh swagger, oh keychain and denim. My name's Joelle Taylor and I'm a poet and author. It's a section from a poem called Psalm out of my booklet that looks at the lesbian counterculture, particularly butch counterculture in the late 80s,

90s. How would you describe the lesbian scene in the UK at the moment? It's gone through you know a good 20 or more years of it being a kind of desert land really with very few things happening but over the last four or five years there's been a real sense of joy breaking through, a real drive toward unity amongst lesbians. In the 80s and 90s, I went out to a different bar every night. Artful Dodger, Royal Oak, Duke of Welly, The Bell, Fallen Angel. And lots of these spaces, Blush, Due South, I can just keep going. And they had very distinct personalities, so you could find the space where your people met, and you were safe. So for me, an enduring memory is finishing work and going by

myself to a bar and having a little pint, just talking to the bartender. You know I guess the kind of things that our fathers did, that freedom that women are not normally allowed, freedom to go out by yourself, connecting with other people, these are radical spaces. Why are these spaces important and radical? They're radical because women don't get these spaces. It's radical because when we come together, it's not just about drinking. Often, you know, it's got a political undertone the entire time. It's activist-based.

And this is the rich cultural heritage of your lesbian. This is what we've always done. We've always, you know, been... Our position in the margins means we've been able to affect quiet change. So having these spaces to come together means that that gets strengthened, ideas spread. This is why it makes it radical. So own the space you stand in is a radical idea for a lesbian.

Would you tell me what we're looking at? Oh my goodness me, we're standing outside what was the South London Women's Centre before it was closed down in the early 90s. I mean, it's just a reminder of a quite important part of my growth on my arrival in London so I feel a bit sentimental we are on quite a noisy road you should go find somewhere to have a sit down hello my name is Yvonne Taylor I am 65 years old and I'm here today reminiscing about the South London Women's Centre. So we sat on a park bench in Brixton in South London.

You moved down to London in the mid-80s. What did you think about the lesbian nightlife kind of scene? In the 80s there were several women's nights in different bars in Islington. To be frank with you, I didn't really like the music. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Dusty Springfield's, but I don't really want to dance to it in a club. You know, it's not doing it for me.

You know, you're caught in a trap, really, aren't you? It's like you won't be welcomed in the general society. And then imagine me as a black woman arriving at your club and it's like, hmm, some of them weren't too happy to see me either. So no, it wasn't really my scene because it just catered for a specific group of lesbians. You set up Systematic with Eddie Lockhart, Sharon Lorna. Can you tell me what Systematic was and I guess the idea behind it?

I would go that Systematic was probably one of the most phenomenal regular women's parties. We set that up at the South London Women's Centre on Acre Lane and the venue was, it couldn't have been better still, it had a room where you could hold 200 people. And we had a space where we could run a crash. So the first gig that we ever had, we actually sold out. I mean, we were packed by like 11.30. And we were sweeping them out at 9 o'clock the next morning.

So I would say that was a resounding success. Why was it important to have that space? I mean, this is what sold me on the idea. Because we needed to have that space? black women and listen to music of black origin really. I think one of the things I've learned in the last few years is how much the people that came to those parties see that as a major part of their growing up and their coming to terms with their sexuality. They'll come up to me and say oh my god Yvonne you gave me support and belief that being who I was wasn't really a crime. So Jess, Dirt Dykes events are exclusively for queer people of marginalised genders. Can you talk me through why that is?

I found that in going to mainstream gay bars, those bars have been overtaken by straight women, straight men. They're actually not a safe space for queer people anymore why do you think these kind of spaces are important it's really really important to have a space where you just genuinely feel like you can be your most authentic self like there's no questioning of why are you wearing that why are you behaving like that why do you behaving like that? Why do you identify like that? Let us leave our faces on the back seats of night buses. Let someone take a photograph not of us but because of us.

Let our limbs grow wild, our hair retreat, our hormonal seas. Let us inherit each other's teeth. Keep us alive this death. I mean, so much has changed since I was here last week. It looks really different. Talk me through, what's happening? What's happening? So we're doing some big building works this week.

So we've ripped out that big wall at the back to make what used to be two bathrooms into one accessible bathroom Rydyn ni'n gwneud gwaith adeiladu mawr y wythnos hon. really excited to see like this space that we've been working towards and that at the moment exists in our brains and as a building site become a really beautiful space to come and hang out in just to see it like full of people I think is going to be totally amazing I'm so excited to see that great stuff owners of new bar la camionera talking to reporter Martha Owen you also heard from Yvonne Taylor, Jess Whiting-Bolt, Tabs Benjamin and Joelle Taylor. Well, my next guests have something to say about lesbian bars. They started their award-winning documentary series to celebrate the remaining lesbian bars in the US. And now the Lesbian Bar Project, it's turning its attention to Germany.

The creators and filmmakers Erica Rose and Alina Street are sitting right opposite me in the studio. Welcome, both of you. Hi. Wasn't that joyful to listen to? Amazing. Yes. I particularly like the Dusty Springfield reference. I didn't want to dance to Dusty Springfield, so I had to create my own space.

I'm going to start by asking you, Erica, about the Lesbian Bar Project. Why did you start it? What is it? So in March of 2020, I think we can all remember the pandemic hit New York City and worldwide. And as filmmakers, we were unemployed. Our industry shut down. And, you know, the entire city shut down. And we came across an article that stated that there were only 16 lesbian bars left in the entire United States and that the pandemic

could bring that number down to zero. So Alina and I are very ingrained in the community and we didn't even realize the numbers were that bad. So we decided to do what we do best. And as storytellers, we decided to make a call to action and to say, hey, we need to wake up and realize that our spaces are disappearing. So we conceptualized a documentary project, started as a PSA. And we also did a crowdfunding campaign, two crowdfunding campaigns in both 2020 and 2021. And we raised almost $300,000 for the bars. Then we did a short film. Then we did a documentary series in America. And yeah, and now we just released our first international episode in Germany. Focusing on Germany, which I watched last night, which I really enjoyed. And I'm desperate to get to Cologne now, but we'll get to that.

How do you define a lesbian bar, Alina? So for us, from the beginning of the Lesbian Bar Project, we always thought about the term lesbian as an umbrella term for everyone. Because when we look into the history of our spaces, there weren't just lesbians in the space. We had the trans community, we had the non-binary community, and now we're so honored to have the language for it. So we use the term lesbian bar, but it's inclusive of everyone. And that's something we really want to speak up about in turn in in terms of our new episode which is called flinta this is a new acronym that we fell across in um that we found out in germany called female lesbian intersex non-binary trans and agender and they have flinta parties and that to us felt very connected to our definition of lesbian bar. So we are celebrating it.

Well, I was reading about the US series. And what I found fascinating was the difference between whether you are a lesbian attending bars in New York, or if you were in the state of Texas. Yeah, I mean, lesbian bars definitely serve different geographical needs. You know, in New York City, we have more accessibility to different queer stories and different queer personalities and identities. And there's more allies. In Texas, in Pearl Bar, for instance, in Houston, people travel three hours every day to go to that bar. And so there's a glaring need for that kind of space. And they definitely service the people that desperately need it. And not to say that people don't need queer spaces in New York City.

I think that there's just a different intensity of need for that. And you're probably less safe in other cities in the U.S. Yeah, I mean, it really depends. I think that, yeah, I mean, in New York, there's definitely like a kind of cry for safety needs as well. I think in Texas, though, we're seeing that queer people are being heavily criminalized, especially trans people, people of marginalized genders. Drag is being outlawed across the South and Midwest. So we're seeing that these bars are really vital safe spaces for people to safely express their gender. So back to Germany and the new documentary Flinter,

you headed to Cologne. What did you find there? What are the numbers doing in Germany? Are there a lot more lesbian bars or is it the same thing, dwindling? Dwindling. I think we got to meet some great collectives. There's a great party scene there as well. But one of the biggest things that we noticed is when we went to Cologne, it really proclaims itself as the queer capital of Europe. And we've never seen such a beautiful pride. It's so accessible. You can walk straight to the pride trucks and you can be a part of this world. And it feels like quite a small village all of a sudden.

And we met an amazing bar owner called Payman Niziri, who is championing Boys Bar, which is a lesbian bar. And she really curated this beautiful experience. Why was it a beautiful experience? Wow. I mean, there's nothing like it in the world. You walk in and there's incredible cocktails. It's very, very specific design. You can tell that there's intentionality in this space.

And you walk in, you meet people from all walks of life. And then a little later, you can go downstairs and have this incredible dance moment with DJs from around the world. And Paimon, which I really view her as an artist. We both do. And we hope that that comes across in our episode. She's fantastic. I particularly enjoyed the bit in the documentary where you take us through a bit of the sort of potted history of the lesbian scene in Germany. And I thought, I don't know it. I know lots about the male gay scene.

And do you think that's been dominated in terms of the media and the spaces? Actually, I mean, obviously, we do lots of different interviews about various women through History on Women's Hour, and sometimes you will get women who live with another woman, and that's just accepted. They're roommates. Roommates, yeah. Friends for life. But what do we know about the history?

The history is hard to find. In fact, we were very lucky to find the Spinnenboden Lesbian Archiv in Berlin. It's a lesbian specific archive. In New York City, we have the Her Story archive as well. So I encourage everyone to look into it. But it's a history that has very much been quite erased. And in fact, oh, I forgot what I would say. Yeah, I mean, lesbians didn't take up space in the same way that gay men did. Right. Gamerhoods versus, yeah, gayborhoods very male centered versus there's never been a lesbianhood. Yeah. And it's like, it's interesting kind of looking, you know, in the both in the United States specifically, what we had is that men had capital and women didn't. And if you look at, you know, women, I mean, it's similar across Europe as well.

But women didn't have weren't able to have liquor licenses or their own line of credit if they're a single woman until 1976. So why the decline in lesbian bars? What's happened? There's there are a lot of reasons and factors. The main one is gentrification, rise of rents. We obviously have income disparity as well between men and women. The spending power is very different. Men have a lot more disposable income than women. Women have a tendency to well, women will also have children and they won't be able to come out to the bars as much assimilation is a big one in some of the cities where it's more accepted you you've

you go you you have less of a need to go to the spaces because you are more accepted even though the spaces are still very vital and the last big thing is the shift to online culture, which means that you can meet your date online versus needing to go to a space. But we really think that it is so important to go to a space to have those spontaneous encounters because they're the best ways to create memories and stories. Well, your documentary series is brilliant. Flinter is available for people to watch and it really feels and you really captured a moment in time that actually in what we just heard in the in Martha's piece there about it being these being quite radical spaces for counterculture and it feels like that's coming back very important congratulations keep up the good work come back and talk to us again thank you thank you both yeah thank you uh 84844 is the number to text if you want to share where you were going for a drink

if you're a lesbian when you were growing up in the 80s and 90s or any decade it's been described now as Mean Girls meets horror with a sprinkling of Asian folklore the film Tiger Stripes

is a joyously subversive coming-of-age story that explores fun, fear and teenage rebellion it follows Zafan a 12-year-old girl who's the first among her friends to hit puberty, only for her body to begin a terrifying transformation.

Bullied at school and scared, she'll be labelled a monster. Zafan tries to disguise her changed appearance until one day she decides she no longer wants to hide away. Well, last year, Tiger Stripes became the first ever Malaysian film to win a top prize at the Cannes Film Festival, and it was even submitted to the Oscars. But in Malaysia, the government released a censored version of the film. Well, I spoke to the director, Amanda Nell-Yu, earlier.

Before we got onto the film, though, I first asked her about someone, or rather something she describes, as the Malaysian Beyoncé, a folklore character from her childhood called Pontianak. So Pontianak is, to me, probably one of the most iconic monsters from the region where I come from, which is Malaysia, but also in Indonesia she's pretty well known. She basically walks around in the middle of the night when it's super dark and

she's very very beautiful and entices men and then basically starts growing teeth and claws and eats them so of course you know she's terrifying and also she lives in banana trees which is uh also quite weird like why she lives in a banana tree i'd'd never know why. I said, and it's in inverted commas, you describe her as the Malaysian Beyonce. Beyonce is not scary. I mean, Beyonce is a badass queen, so... This is true. Yeah, so to me, she's like, you know, like a queen. She's like the queen of all the monsters, let's say.

And why do you think you were told these stories of Pontianak? Well, it was basically, it was fantasy, right? It was also fun to tell these stories to kids and, you know, see the fear in their eyes. And like she's wearing all white, she's got these long hair. And, you know, when I was a kid, it was scary, of course. And like there are even versions of her that are banshees that scream and howl at the night. But then, you know, me as an adult now, I'm like, she's really cool. Like I want her powers. Like I want to be as powerful as she is.

I want to be, you know, as fearless as she is. And yeah, so that's why I think she's awesome. It's interesting, isn't it? The stories that we were told as young girls that were meant to make us fear women with powers. We are now reclaiming them. So growing up in Malaysia, being a young girl and hearing these stories, what was expected of you? How were you told that you were to grow up? You know, there are certain expectations that you have to live up to. Definitely how you sit, how you walk, even even how you run how you speak or not speak it's

better if you don't speak uh things like that or just a lot of comments on like you know women should look like this women should behave like this I remember like you know when I went through puberty when I got my period when I my body started changing it was like the first time where I just had so many eyes on me and so many comments on like how I should body started changing it was like the first time where I just had so many eyes on me and so many comments on like how I should dress what I should wear like the way I should behave is like all very different and so generalizing but a lot of Asian women that came from here I think also had to live up to these expectations and sometimes yeah if you do something that slightly steps off the mark then you know everyone know, everyone's going to kind of pick on you.

You grew up in the UK and you returned to Kuala Lumpur in your late 20s. So how was it settling back into Malaysian life? I was born in Malaysia, but then, yeah, I kind of had my teen years and, you know, uni and everything in the UK. But returning back, I, yeah, I felt like an outsider. I felt very different to everyone. I didn't speak like everyone. I didn't behave like everyone. I was always questioning why I had to, like,

dress differently or act differently. And, you know, even my mum was trying to kind of reel me back in. And that was actually why I started making these films about Pontianaks and all these ghoulish women that I love. Which brings us nicely to your brilliant film, Tiger Stripes, because it is about a young woman who gets her period and things begin to change. Yes, very much. I mean, not realistically or kind of realistically, I guess. Well, she starts becoming, I mean, can I tell people? I don't want to ruin it for them.

I want you to watch it, but you explain what happens. That way I'm not going to give any spoilers away. Exactly. It's about this young girl who, yeah, goes through puberty, but she's also kind of very wild, kind of a free spirit, let's say. But as she's going through puberty, she struggles with it and finds that she doesn't really have anyone to turn to. And in fact, when she starts changing,

her whole community and even her best friends turn against her. And slowly she starts changing into something that she fears herself. And basically in the film, it's about her journey and how she overcomes that fear and embraces who she really is and stands proud and tall for that yeah yeah and eventually is liberated yeah and it is a horror and it is very funny yes I feel the comedy was very important I love watching films in different languages because it really gives you an insight into different cultures when you're watching them. And why did you have to make

it funny? I think it's just my personality. It's really how I see horror. I think horror and comedy are kind of, you know, the different sides of the same coin. And you have to have a sense of humor. I mean, I'm talking about themes that I think are very, very real, very, very important to a lot of women, to a lot of young girls, and even from my experience, and that's incredibly real to me. But then I love putting that fantasy, that horror element, because that's really my sense of humor. And so it's like this idea of like you know I talk about being a kid and

you know being a teenager and a lot of teenage girls are labeled monsters so I'm like okay let's just do it let's just make her a monster you know and make her react that way and make you know her community kind of perceive her in that way and and how does she deal with that basically yeah um so the humor is from that really yeah i was watching it and i thought i feel seen i feel seen i know that feeling i know that feeling of being that teenage girl and being that frustrated and that unheard and just feeling ostracized and then the interesting scene where you bring in the the doctor who tries to exercise her why was it important to have that character yeah i mean he really represented this kind of

social expectation those rules and why those rules are in place and there's always some strange man that doesn't know anything about you like making all these rules of how you should be and uh you know and try to fix you or fix women in that sense uh But also it's comedic. Sometimes the scariest things are funny. I mean, we can see even, you know, big figures, people in power, people all over the world are massive clowns as well sometimes. And that's that weird edge of like, it's so funny, but it's also terrifying that these people are in control and, you know, have a following.

So that was really what he represented in the film. And I really appreciated that you didn't shy away from what actually physically happens when a girl goes through puberty. And the scene where you have her trying to wash the blood out of her period pad and the smell and her itching and just the hair all of it I've never seen that before right yeah I mean that was something always from the beginning when I was you know even writing the script and I'm so glad that you said the smell because that was always

my intention was like you can feel that that smell and that pain and and all the bodily fluids that she's going through um that was something that I wanted to you know have in the film from the get-go because you shouldn't shy away from that because yeah we all have these functions in our body and uh you know we shouldn't put shame on that of course uh yeah how has the reaction been to the film in malaysia um mixed i'd say i i think there was a well yeah i mean when we released it theatrically uh because we wanted to qualify for the oscars we went through the censorship board so it was uh quite heavily censored and uh in parts that actually surprised me a lot i thought it was know, maybe more the gory parts, but it was really parts about just her being, you know, a beautiful, young, bright star girl,

like, you know, just enjoying herself. And so that was quite painful for us. Well, it's interesting that one of the scenes that was cut for me was one of the most joyful scenes. It's where she's dancing in the waterfall and she's just having the time of her life. And it made me smile. It lifted my heart because it was just a young woman being free and embodying who she is. Absolutely. I think that was the one that was censored. Yeah. One of one of the one of one of the cuts. But I think that was the one where I was like, oh Oh my God, I can't sit with this because like, then the film doesn't make sense to me. Like you,

we need to have this end where, you know, she is who she is and she celebrated and she's celebrating herself and we all should do that. It was like, here I am making a film about, you know, a young woman trying to express herself the way she wants to. And then it's really happening to us in real life, you know, when we're trying to express a story and we're not allowed to. And so I had to make a statement. I mean, that's what I did.

I made a public statement about it, about censorship and, you know, about how I'm not really happy about that and to tell people, you know, not to support the theatrical release, which is a weird thing for a director to say, don't go watch my film in the cinema, at least in Malaysia. At least in Malaysia, because, I mean, the reaction internationally has been phenomenal. It won a grand jury prize at Cannes last year.

That must have been quite something, receiving that honour. It was amazing. It was, yeah, like, just incredible, unbelievable. But it's been a nice journey. It's been, yeah, a year now. Yeah. It's also Malaysia's official submission to the Oscars. So the authorities might not approve of what you've done, but, you know, you're putting Malaysia and the Malaysian film industry right out there front and center internationally. Yeah. That's the tricky part of being, you know, from a country like Malaysia where we have censorship

and, you know, you can't help but celebrate the accolades that Malaysians do, but it's just that weird thing of when you want to show it to Malaysians, then it becomes a bit tricky, yeah. I was just going to say, because, you know, you are making stories about Malaysia about uh you know empowering Malaysian women uh young women yeah but of course you're coming up against the censorship board you could make films anywhere you don't have to be in Malaysia

yeah no that's absolutely true but I think when I started making these you know first short films and you know eventually Tiger Strikes and you know I was at a place where I was struggling with my identity as a Malaysian woman because I wasn't accepted, or at least I perceived that I wasn't accepted as a Malaysian. And so it was through my films where I became very proud of my identity and became a very proud Malaysian woman. And I found a way to kind of express that and also explore and discover that as well for myself.

What have you learnt from this experience about what it takes to get a film about Malaysian women made? I think the journey's been great. I know that the fight is a fight that needs to happen but I guess it doesn't put me down. It just makes me want to keep going, kind of talk more about things and fight, you know, for voices, for voices that maybe aren't allowed to voice out things.

Yeah. Amanda Nell-Yu talking to me from Kuala Lumpur. Her film Tiger Stripes is out in UK cinemas from today. Now, last weekend, the Olympic gold medalist Lauren Price, MBE, became Wales' first female boxing world champion, winning the WBA, IBO and Ring magazine world titles in spectacular fashion in her hometown of Cardiff, beating WBA welterweight champion Jessica McCaskill. Well, Lauren is the only boxer to win every single round of her career

to become world champion. She's had a diverse sporting career along the way, four times world kickboxing champion, and she received 52 caps for the Welsh national football team. She joins me now. I mean, talk about being gifted, Lauren. Congratulations. How tough was that fight for you?

Yeah, it was my toughest test to date i knew obviously she was a legitimate champion you know she'd been in there with some top opposition as well so i knew in my pro career definitely it was my toughest test and obviously that pressure of having you know boxing first time at home with a crowd um yeah it was up there but it like the experience I had and the night it was the one of the best nights of my career must have been an emotional one like you say you were in your hometown yeah definitely obviously Wales you know we're a small nation but we're a very proud one and we back our own and I've been overwhelmed really the support I've received first time headlining I didn't know how many tickets I was going to sell but they blew me out of the park everyone you know they come out and supported me and it was great I come out on

top of that ramp I had goosebumps and then obviously walking to the ring listening to the Welsh national anthem and when that bell went and they were all chanting Laura, it was just, yeah, it was something that will last for me forever. How does it compare to winning gold at the Tokyo Olympics? So I'll be honest with you, right? From the age of eight, it was my dream to go to the Olympics and win gold. And I'll be honest, nothing is going to beat that Olympic gold medal in terms of accolades and stuff like that.

However, the atmosphere and having my Welsh fans behind me and supporting me is up there with that. From the age of eight, you wanted to go to the Olympics. Yeah, I was... Did you know what you wanted to win gold in back then? No, I didn't have a clue. I sat in the living room with my nan and granddad and Kelly Holmes was the one who inspired me.

Seeing her, you know, win her Olympic gold medals and cross that finish line. I was mad into sport anyway. I was playing football. I was a kickboxer. And the pinnacle of the sport was the Olympic Games. And that was my dream from such a young age. I just wanted to get there. And I think obviously the backing I had from my grandparents, love, support believe in your dreams they supported me financially throughout my career together so if it wasn't for that and then you know I wouldn't have achieved anything really I mean just let's discuss just we've got to I'm glad you brought up your gran and uh grandpa because they are instrumental in you being you aren't they because they they took you in from when you were three months old. They brought you up. Three days old.

Three days. Yeah, three days old. They brought me up. And yeah, that's why I call myself the lucky one. I feel like I had a lucky escape. And yeah, they showed me love. And my nan always used to say to me, reach for the moon if I fall short, I land on the stars.

And she's a massive part of my life still. Sadly, my gran had passed away just before the Olympics with dementia. But, you know, that's a massive thing as well. I believe he's always looking down on me when I'm in that ring. And yeah, like I said, he was a massive part of my life. They both were. Whether I was playing football on a Sunday up in the valleys, ale-stoning, maybe stood there on the side of the pitch with a flask of coffee cheering me on or going away to kickboxing

competitions which cost thousands, taking me training every night. I wasn't like a normal kid, I was always coming from school, I'd have a nap and then I'd be going out training every night of the week. So yeah, their lives were lives were you know took over by yeah taking me training and like I said financial side of things so when I won that Olympic gold medal it was like I need to bring that home to my nan you know to it was kind of like you know I got it in the end and I think that's a massive thing for going forward in youngsters yeah it doesn't matter how silly your dreams are or how big they sound. If you work hard enough, you can achieve them.

Where does your drive come from? You said you come home, you get changed and you're back out there training every night, not on a telephone, not sitting in front of the TV. Where does that drive for you come from, do you think? I think I was just mad in love with sport. I was like Tigger as a child child i had so much energy bouncing around and my nan said to my gran we need to take her somewhere to to lose some energy but i just fell in love with sport i fell in love with and when you look at

it like football the the kickboxing now the boxing i just loved the physical side as well i just loved getting involved i loved i loved everything about it compared to Nass. Even when I was a youngster, it showed that my schoolwork improved massively as well from my academic side with everything. But you weren't just like Tig, I love that reference. You were actually really gifted, everything you turn your hand to. You were a footballer with Cardiff City.

You won 52 caps for the Welsh national team which is remarkable but you gave it up in 2012 to focus on boxing why did you choose boxing? Yeah I think obviously I wrote a list down in school I wanted to do three things I wanted to become a world kickboxing champion I wanted to play football for Wales and I wanted to go to the Olympics but I ticked two of them off the list by the time I was 20 years of age. I'd won four World Kickboxing titles and, like you said, I had 52 caps for Wales and went boxing, got introduced in London 2012. I thought, oh, that's my time to kind of switch over and give boxing a go because, you know, it was my dream to get to the Olympics.

And in 2014 the welsh national courts colin jones said to me oh you've got the opportunity to go to commonwealth games and as you can imagine doing one sport i was trying to juggle the both of them and it wasn't working at a high level so i thought if boxing didn't work out for me i could always go back to playing football but luckily enough it did work out um i went i won a bronze medal at the age of 20 at the 2014 commonwealth games and then i went around the wales picked up experience and the main goal then was to get myself onto team gb where i was obviously i got on in 2017 just after the real cycle and my career just went through the roof i won the commonwealth the wales the europeans

and then obviously the olympics so yeah i think obviously with that backing and And my career just went through the roof. I won the Commonwealth, the Wales, the Europeans, and then obviously the Olympics. So, yeah, I think obviously with that backing and, you know, that UK funding of the lottery, it just gave me that support. My career just went through the roof. Yeah, it's incredible. And you're formerly an amateur boxer. How different is it being a professional boxer?

What's your training regime like now? So I'm quite lucky, really. I'm still based in quite lucky really I'm still based in Sheffield at the English Institute but you know the the boxing side of things as an amateur you're boxing three threes and you're wearing head guards you're wearing bigger gloves whereas the pro game you're boxing over 10 rounds you've got little gloves on you can get you feel everything it's a fight it's brutal you know you're in front of a big crowd, more eyes on you. What's next?

I've obviously had a little week off now. I speak to my coach Rob and he'll speak to Ben Shalom and Sky and Boxer. It got me this opportunity anyway, fighting Jessica, which I'm very grateful for. Now I've got the titles. There's some massive fights out there for me and I'm really excited. And yeah, I suppose Raw will just make that decision. Oh, well, we'll be watching you. And what did you do on your week off? Don't tell me you trained.

I actually went to the gym with Carys yesterday, my partner. She's boxing in July. Just had a little session. But yeah, I've done a lot of media and just, you know, just seen a few people and, you know. It must be nice to be able to have a partner

who's in the similar world to you. You've got each other to support each other and you train together, don't you? Yeah, definitely. You know, we're special. We went to the Olympics together. She won a bronze medal as well. And I think, you know,

having someone who understands what you go through, especially with a weight-making sport when you've got a diet and you grouchy around one another, we get it. Lauren, I think you're absolutely remarkable. Congratulations once again.

You've got Team Woman's Hour supporting you. We'll be keeping an eye on your career. Best of luck. Thank you very much. Yeah, no doubt you're going to smash it whatever you do next. That's it from me. Do join me tomorrow for Woman's Hour

again at four o'clock, where I'll be joined, or we'll be hearing from actor Tamzin Gregg and journalist Deca Akinghead on her experience of sleepwalking. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Look at this.

I found a secret room and it's behind a trap door. We're looking for someone who controls one of the largest gangs of people smugglers. He calls himself Scorpion. The top one? Impossible you can't find him.

His gang has made millions from people coming to the UK in small boats. This is so cold. So cold, I wanna die. Finding him won't be easy, and it will be dangerous. Oh, we need to get out of here. So, get in the car.

I'm Sue Mitchell, and this is Intrigue, to catch a scorpion from BBC Radio 4. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.