Woman's Hour - Lesley Manville, Afghanistan, Menopause and dental health, Conceived by rape, Ruby Wax, Pens

Episode Date: August 21, 2021

The actor Lesley Manville on her mission to change the way the world sees older women - not least in her latest TV performance in Channel 4's I am series. Lesley plays Maria, who at 60 and after 30-odd years of marriage, is finding it suffocating and decides she wants more from life.The BBC journalist Zarghuna Kargar who used to present Afghan Woman's Hour found herself translating a Taliban press conference. It was her voice telling us what a Taliban spokesman said about women. How menopause affects your dental health. We hear from Louise Newsom, NHS Advisor for the National Menopause Programme and Dr Uchenna Okoye, Clinical Director of London Smiling Dental Group.'When Ruby Wax Met…' features some of her most memorable interviews. Ruby tells us about a particularly memorable encounter with a future US President- a Mr Donald Trump and when she fell in love with Carrie Fisher. The woman who took her birth father to court for raping her birth mother in the 70s. It is thought to be the first of its kind. And the people who love their pens - they even watch others using them. We hear from stationery enthusiast Rhiannon Morgan, who runs mummy of four YouTube channel and Jenna Meyers, a TikToker and hand-letterer who creates content about her favourite pens and handwriting.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour, a choice selection of the standout moments from the week just gone. We'll shortly hear from the female journalist who's gone viral for translating the words of the Taliban. We talk dental health and the menopause. Ruby Wax tells us about the time Donald Trump terrified her and when she fell in love with Carrie Fisher.

And Pentalk, the people who love their pens. They watch others using them. I feel very strongly about pen-to-paper writing, living in this digital world and how powerful it is to put pen to paper. You just process things so much better. So as you're writing, when you find the perfect pen, it you just process things so much better. So as you're writing, when you find the perfect pen, it just makes that experience so much better. All of that, plus the actor Leslie Manville will be talking about her latest work and her mission to show older women as they actually

are. So pour yourself a cup of whatever you fancy and settle in. Now, all this week, we've been reporting the ongoing developments in Afghanistan and the plight of women and girls. If you watched the Taliban's global press conference live on Tuesday, you'll have heard this, what one of the spokesmen had to say about women. There will be no, nothing against women in our ruling. Our people accept, our women are Muslims, they accept Islamic rules. If they continue to live according to Sharia, we will be happy, they will be happy. The woman translating Zabihullah Mujahideen's words is the BBC's Zarguna Kagar.

She's a journalist for BBC World News TV and used to present Afghan Woman's Hour. Her translation and her voice went right around the world on the BBC and was picked up by other networks too. Emma began by asking how surreal it was being the woman's voice over the Taliban man talking about whether women are going to have rights or not. Definitely. It was a surreal experience to see Zabihullah Mujahid for the first time on TV screen, because in my experience of working for BBC Afghan service, I used to interview him numerous times when there were attacks happening on the streets of Kabul and other provinces.

And we would just call him and he would pick up and say, oh, Mr. Zabihullah Mujahid, we want to know if that attack was done by the Taliban, he would claim responsibility for most of them. So for me, that was the image of this man I had. And there I was, like, translating him, talking about women's rights and ruling the country. And it's quite scary at the same time. And it's hard to take in all what he said about women, about girls, the vagueness in his message. Huge vagueness. And you tweeted afterwards saying, I totally agree with you regards to the Taliban message,

that women are a very important part of our society. Like today, I was translating your message from Pashto because of my education. Yes, I wanted him to see that an educated woman is able to convey your message. Otherwise, at that time, because the press conference happened and suddenly no one knew about it before and he appeared late. So I was waiting to hear him, what he was saying. And I was the educated Afghan woman who could convey his message. So I wanted him, I want the other Taliban leaders to hear Afghan women, to hear us that this is the importance that we play in life, in daily life, in media and if you give us a chance and if you

give the women of Afghanistan a chance, it's going to be a prosperous society. Without women, how can you have a prosperous society? And they have experienced that kind of community or society and the women have experienced it. And that's why there's so much fear at the moment among women, among girls. Just even hearing you say that, if you give us a chance, if you

give women a chance, you know, there's an appeal from you there to try and get that across. Emma, I feel so emotional because the women I know, they have worked so, so hard. I have worked so hard. I've dedicated my life

to the betterment of girls' education, girls' rights, women's rights. And I feel so strongly about this. I know I'm a BBC journalist, but I'm an Afghan women's rights. And I feel so strongly about this. I know I'm a BBC journalist, but I'm an Afghan woman as well, and I have feelings. And at the moment, I see them ruling. And if it can work with peace and with appeal, why not?

I want them to work together. I can't imagine the emotion that you feel just as yourself with your family, but also with the people that you're talking to, the fear that 20 years of progress could be rolled back? Yes, I want them to understand that there's fear among women, among girls. You showed them a very dark age. They went through illiteracy. They went through being behind, comparing to their brothers in the same family.

Their brothers were allowed to go to school and they were not. So I want them to understand this, that we feel it. The Afghan women feel it. And that's why we are so fearful. Just come to talk and be very clear

about your message, about women's rights, about women's freedom, about women's education. Just be clear. All we want is clarity. It's clear that a lot of the women that we're seeing with their families all alone are not feeling they can trust that message. They are trying to leave. They're trying to get out.

Because actions and words are different at the moment. Just yesterday, we saw the national TV presenter who is like main TV channel in Afghanistan, watched in provinces. She went to do her job and she was not allowed to go in. Her male colleagues were allowed, but she was stopped. So this is the action we see on ground. And then when you speak, the leaders speak and speak to the world, speak to the international media. They give a message that we are going to work on it and we are going to do everything according to Sharia law.

What does that mean? Which interpretation you are bringing to us? So we want to know. And this is just the trust is very, very hard to trust, very hard to believe with this vagueness. Emma speaking with Zarguna Kagada. Now, hot flushes is probably the first thing you associate with going through the menopause, but Radio 2's Lisa Tarbuck had an interesting angle on what she wanted us to take a look at. This week I have been having, I have been mainly having, a gum specialist in my mouth. It's true. Apparently your gums change,

particularly after menopause for ladies. It's a very interesting topic, which I am hoping to push into the minds of Radio 4 Woman's Hour. Your message was received, Lisa. I hope you were listening. Did you know this was a thing? Apparently it is. Yes, your hormones can have a significant effect on your dental health and can cause bleeding gums, burning, a dry mouth and even lead to tooth loss. So Emma spoke to Louise Newsome, NHS advisor for the National Menopause Programme,

but first, Dr Echena Okoye, Clinical Director of London Smiling Dental Group. Thank you Lisa for highlighting this because it's a huge passion of mine. I always say that the two ends of the body, the top, you know, your mouth and the lower end, they're highly connected. So everything that affects it affects the mouth as well, like dryness and etc. So it's great to be having this conversation. And I said a few of the symptoms there. Can you tell us a bit more? What have you seen? So basically what tends to happen is you have more of the symptoms that you normally would.

Anything to do with hormones, women are susceptible to. So bleeding gums, gum disease, toothache, dry mouth, because your mouth is dry, you produce less saliva. You get a very distressing condition sometimes called burning mouth, which is to do with oestrogen receptors. You have a lot of oestrogen receptors in your mouth. So when the estrogen goes down, as happens with menopause, there are challenges as a result. So what I say to women is to go into training. So anytime you have what I call hormonal episodes, puberty, pregnancy, menopause, you need to almost compensate. So you need to work really hard with your hygienist, you need to kind of do all the things that we need for greater oral care and just be aware that you're more susceptible to

disease and more susceptible to problems. Let's bring in Louise to this, Dr. Louise Newsome. What is that connection between the hormonal changes, the menopause and your mouth? We have oestrogen receptors all over our body. There's not one cell that doesn't have an oestrogen receptor in it. So when our hormone levels start to decline, actually during the perimenopause, which can occur for decades before the menopause, our oestrogen levels drop. And then when we're menopausal, the hormones drop and stay low forever. So that means most of us have low levels for a third of our lives. So the oestrogen is have low levels for a third of our lives. So the oestrogen is very important on the supporting structures of our teeth,

the ligaments, the bones, the gums, everywhere. And so as we've heard, people can get lots of symptoms. And I certainly speak to a lot of women who have excruciating burning mouth, dry mouth, their taste changes as well. And it can be really uncomfortable. Sadly, a lot of women don't know that these symptoms can be due to the perimenopause and menopause. And I was reading a study yesterday and only 7% of dentists knew that the menopause actually can affect the mouth. So we need to know as women that it's happening. So when we go to see a hygienist or a dentist, we can actually be talking about our hormones, but also we should be getting the right help. So replacing our hormones with the right dose and type of HRT actually will improve the symptoms because we're treating the underlying cause.

I was going to say, will that mean once you're through that bit or you are taking something to help that it will go? So no one's ever through the menopause because it's a hormone deficiency that lasts forever. So whether someone has symptoms or not, they still have a hormone deficiency and symptoms can really change. So some women might start with hot flushes and then they go and think, that's it, I'm through the menopause. But of course, they're not. They have no hormones. And then they might come in their 60s, 70s. I've seen women in their 80s with other symptoms such as memory problems, sleep problems or mouth problems as well, or vaginal dryness because the tissues are exactly the same in our vagina as our mouth.

So it's very important that we look at hormone replacement because also there's a risk of diseases without our hormones. So heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, dementia, really important women health diseases that actually are costing the economy a lot of money to treat. Let's come back to hormonal replacement in just a moment. But to come back to you, Eugenia, when you when you treat women for this, is it more important to treat the hormone side of this or actually treat the issue itself? Which way round? I think it's a combination. For me as a dentist, it's the issues. So as Dr. Louise said, there are actually studies that women that are using HRT have a low incidence of gum disease.

So it does have a significant impact. I don't know where the study about the 7% of dentists when that was done. But a lot of dentists are much more aware of the link between perimenopause than they were before. And I feel that most people see their dentist much more regularly than they do their doctors. And even for me, having... Oh, I don't know about that. I saw a friend yesterday confess they hadn't been to the dentist in three years.

Anyway. Well, we did have the pandemic in the middle. But your dentist is in a unique position to be able to recognise certain symptoms. And for me, myself personally, going, you know, because being perimenopausal, and I was prescribed with antidepressants. So when patients come in now, and I'm asking about their medical history, and things like this flag up, it's, it's wonderful to be able to ask them, have they thought about the menopause, and they talk about the symptoms and being able to help them with this.

So even for myself, I do a lot of cosmetic dentistry. So often I get women at this stage coming in because they kind of, it's not the things such as dryness or gum disease, but it's aesthetic stuff. And they're like, suddenly I wake up and my teeth are crowded and you know everything's fallen apart and again it's because the collagen's unraveling teeth move this is a significant time so whatever brings them in then it gives me the opportunity to be able to educate them and teach them about the lifestyle choices with the brushing the flossing what they eat yeah and even the type of toothpaste makes a difference. So if you use toothpaste with SLS, that can exacerbate

and make your mouth, your mucosa much sorer. And also, just to pick up very briefly on something you said there, you know, about anxiety perhaps as well in perimenopausal women, you know, people grinding teeth and that also being a part of it. We just had a message from Catherine who says, so that's why I have a burning mouth much of the time. We are educating live on air, which is probably very good for you both to know

and why I'm sure you agreed to come on. Louise, just to come back to hormone replacement, you mentioned that, of course, that's not an option for everyone or they certainly not necessarily want to do that for various reasons, which we've explored at length on this programme but are there any other treatments available that you would say if you are going through this but you don't want to go for HRT? There's no treatment that will replace hormones and so we also know from the NICE guidance the National Institute of Health and Care Excellence guidelines that the majority of women benefit from having their

own hormones back there's never been a study that showed that body identical HRT, which is available on the NHS, has any significantly, statistically significant increased risk of breast cancer, and it reduces the risk of disease as well. So the majority of women actually can take HRT, yet we know less than 10% of women in some areas actually take it. So there's a big disparity. So now we know. And lots of you got in touch to talk to us about it. Lisa emailed in to say, thank you for your piece today on mouth issues and the menopause. I've been looking for ages for reasons for my very dry and burning mouth, and I haven't managed to find this info. Why not, I wonder? Just another issue of women being ignored. And Linda wrote in to say, women are entitled to help with dental costs during pregnancy

as it is accepted that hormones adversely affect our dental health during this time. Why don't we have the same help during menopause? Now, Ruby Wax is perhaps best known for her work in mental health, but she redefined 20-odd years ago the documentary genre by throwing in her unique comedy style, rocking up to interview the biggest A-list celebs of the time as a brash, loudmouthed, cocky American. Either they went with it, or sometimes they had no idea what had hit them, regardless for us the viewers it

made for great TV. Now after 25 years, Ruby is back on our screens this Sunday, watching some of those interviews for the very first time and talking us through the laughs, mayhem and fear. Encounters with stars such as Grace Jones, Carrie Fisher, and one particularly memorable encounter with a future US president, a Mr Donald Trump. This is one of the most excruciating moments of my career. It did not feel good. Not Donald's fault, but I sensed it might only get worse. You did, but you never smiled once, and you probably have a really good smile.

Well, that's okay. Okay. Just an average smile. Let's go. Okay, you're not going to, all right. You know, like, you have a plane, you have, like, this great life that anybody would want to have. Why would you want to run for president? Because a president would want this gig. Well, it really is. We could save a lot of money with Air Force One.

We wouldn't need Air Force One. Because you'd use this plane. Think of how the taxpayers would benefit by that. Okay, we have to take off. Okay. Oh, do you have to go in the front? Can I come too? I'm going to just go upstairs.

Relax for a second. Oh, please. I want to sit in the cockpit too. Better take up the plane. Excuse me. That's enough. I have a headache. Do you hate me? No, I think plane. Excuse me. That's enough. I have a headache. Do you hate me?

No, I think you're fine, but it's enough. What was it like watching that back, Ruby? Oh, that was a wince-making. When you're driving and you see a rodent and you run it over. That was a sensation. He was the cat that played with the mouse, and I could have handled it better. But that was the only one like that,

except for Bill Cosby, who we know ended up where he ended up and he's out. But Carrie Fisher and Bette Midler and Goldie Hawn and Tom Hanks, it was a love affair and forming relationships that would last a very long time,

especially in Carrie's situation. We stayed friends for 30 years. I can't wait to talk to you about the women, especially the Carrie Fisher, because you're right, watching that, and re-watching it as well, it was a love affair, and it was magical, magical to watch it.

But how did you get these people to say, yes, this is pre-social media, this is pre-Twitter, I mean, that's probably better in a way. How did you convince them? Well, look, they weren't all Donald Trump. So I think once I started with Kerry, and then I go to Goldie, and then I go to Bette and Liza Minnelli, they call each other and they

say, this girl shows you a really good time. She's not asking standard questions. And so because their PR was a little less important than they were in those days, they would say to their PR, get lost. We're going to spend the day together. If you show somebody a good time and you're interested and you listen to them and you're not doing these standard questions that they're bored senseless with and you're playing, they want to hang around. So they'd see that and they'd go, oh, I want to play too. That's how it happened with the women. Let's talk about the women, because watching you with Carrie Fisher, Goldie Hawn is just absolute magical television.

Let's talk about Carrie Fisher. Well, she was my heroine and she was always on my wish list. So I was really nervous because I knew this was, you know, it was like a blind date and I really had to make her like me. I mean, was it really the first time you met her? So that was usually I meet them before and I have dinner with them. But in her case, she was a busy woman at the time. So that interview was my audition. And I walked in, I was nervous. But because I'm like Trump, she's as human as you get, as you get, and she knows how to lob a line. And if you can lob a good line back, she's quite startled because with most people she's not meeting I wasn't her match but I could I was a good handmaiden I could give her I could

lob it back let's just say and so after that interview where I revealed stuff about myself and they can't believe that I'm telling them this information about me and I'm showing vulnerability and I'm being funny. I'm not saying I always did it. I did it with her because the love showed. You know that after that interview, we went out for dinner, but you don't know that it lasted 30 years

and she'd come to my house and we traveled together and it was a love affair and we were going to grow old together. That's my kind of girl. You are, your style is that you are, you're a comedian. You are funny. You're not asking the standard questions. You're kind of bowling them over with, you know, your personality.

But you do show vulnerability, which even, which now I guess, you know, is so kind of normal for people to talk about and express the vulnerability. But 25 years ago, no one was doing that. And talking about your therapist on British television, that didn't happen no i guess it didn't happen but i think on television especially first of all you're never going to get a celebrity and a movie star that long and that's not because of me that's just because they could tell their pr to drop off the planet now they're in charge and they'd say five minutes i can can't be interested in five minutes. You have to give them a little foreplay before you dig down. It takes a while to warm them up. If you went in

somebody's house, like I did with Sarah Ferguson and go through their fridge, they'd throw you out or get into bed with Goldie and then suggest a jacuzzi and whatever. Oh, with Sharon Stone, she didn't want to go out in public. So I convinced her to go in disguise and we put beards on and walked down the street in kind of Hasidic Jews and sat in a coffee shop where she could be herself. She'd never agreed to that unless we were girlies together. Yeah. How did you do it? What's the trick? Because you're girlies together. You know, women love women, especially women's women. And when I hit that, and there's men that are women's women, then I know how to do it. I mean, you did interview some of the biggest

female stars of the time. Do you think stardom treated the women differently to the men? Those women got through against all odds. And in those days, talent was the, you know, that was what thrusted them forward. Now with celebrity, you just have to show up on an island and file your nails. I'm sorry, but reality TV is interesting. Don't think I don't watch it, but it's a different phenomenon than going when Liza Minnelli sings in your face, you go, oh, I get it. As wild as she is. And it was, you know, showing me her and David in bed and going out and doing, oh, God, proposing marriage.

At the very end, she sings in my face and you go, yep, I got it. She deserves her fame. So these were women that were so talented that you didn't think, how'd you get here? Who'd you sleep with? They were just talented. And that did go through. That's Sean in those days and probably still does now. But I couldn't get to them and I've moved on.

Madonna, bit of a tricky customer. I didn't really understand her and that shows. So I'm lobbing questions that are from left field and it's such a bad interview in my mind that at the end I it's a comedy show I'm always scared that they won't let me come back well in the end they didn't let me come back but it was after 25 years um so that was a good run in and then I got too old because women can't be on TV. Yeah, what happened? What happened? Why did it? Because you were 25 years, strong career. I mean, you are the forefront.

You're making documentaries like no one else has made before. Why did it stop? Well, it wasn't Louis Theroux, who I ended up really loving, because he did an interview with me, and it was closure for me. It wasn't about Louis. It was what I projected onto him. Men are always stopping me in my tracks. But there was a man, I'm not going to name his name, who took my budget and made his own shows.

I'm not bitter. I could be. But it meant that I could go to Oxford a few years later. That never would have occurred to me if I wasn't out of work. And so in a way, it launched me into a new, you know, like a caterpillar before they become a butterfly. It hurts like hell. Who wants to be a caterpillar? But thank you for making me jump over the abyss. Luckily, I landed. The worst thing is to be some celebrity being really angry and then doing shows that are humiliating. The brilliant Ruby Wax there, back on our screens this Sunday night, BBC Two at 9pm.

Now, if you're a listener of BBC Woman's Hour, which currently all of you are, it's your chance to tell us the stories that you want us to cover, because next week is Listener Week. So get in touch with us via email, go to our website or tweet us at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, you may remember an extraordinary court case a couple of weeks ago where a woman took her birth father to court for raping her birth mother in the 70s. It's thought to be the first of its kind. Well, today we can hear from that woman. In her court victim statement, she had to say this. I am more than evidence, more than a witness, more than a product of rape. I am not your shame.

Her mother was just 13 years old and had gone to a man's house to babysit his children when she was raped. Our guest today was conceived from that rape. That man is called Carvel Bennett and he was found guilty. A fortnight ago, he was sentenced to 11 years in prison. Now in her 40s, it's taken years for our guest to secure his rape conviction. We're not giving her name for legal reasons. She first had the idea for justice around 2011, when high-profile historical cases were in the media.

When I saw those cases, I just realised, well, there's more. I've got forensic evidence. I've got documentary evidence in the form of social care files. It now looks like the tide is turning, that people are now interested in going after these historical abusers. And I naively thought, perfect, the timing's absolutely right. So I did about two years of research before I actually approached the police and social care in 2014. The judge in the court case, Judge Martin Hurst, highlighted your persistence.

He said, quote, You'd met many closed doors, the pursuit of justice must be commended. And I do commend you for taking those steps. What were some of those closed doors? Starting with Birmingham City Council, now Birmingham Children's Trust. I approached the safeguarding board. They weren't particularly interested. I was responded to by a business manager.

I highlighted, you know, this is a child protection safeguarding issue. I'm a social worker. I know exactly who to go to, what doors to navigate in terms of the system, and just thought it was unbelievable that a social care department, a safeguarding board, were not interested. It was very much like, well, there's nothing we can do, speak to the police. The police were initially open to having a conversation with my birth mother. That wasn't how I approached them. I approached them as, I want to pursue this in my own right. Why should she have to go through this? The allegation is documented, documented by a social worker,

references to police. This is the allegation that she was raped? Yes. The police at the time said there wasn't enough evidence. You've got a 13-year-old, pregnant, disclosing the name of the perpetrator. And I think for me,

it speaks to race, class, misogyny. Your mum is black? She's black, Caribbean. Your birth mother, I should say. And you think she wasn't taken seriously because of race and her age or anything else? Race, age, class, all of it. Working class.

Working class family of Jamaican heritage. The police weren't taking them seriously. In fact, my birth father stated in court when he was spoken to by the police, he recalls police officers laughing. That's not shocking to me. That is not shocking to me at all. That's exactly how I would imagine they would have responded. And how old was he? 29 at the time. But when did you find out that you were conceived by rape? I found out I was conceived in rape when I went to seek my social work files at 18. Prior to that, I had a small amount of documentation that my adoptive parents showed me.

That documentation said birth mother was 14, birth father between 30 and 35. I was a child at the time when I read that, so I didn't automatically go to, that was rape, that was assault. I was so focused on wanting to see my birth mother that that wasn't the kind of, that wasn't the main point I was focused on. However, when I got my files back when I was 18, it wasn't, I wasn't surprised, but it was still shocking to read that. And I guess the shock on just seeing that is that people didn't do anything. And I think the main impact for me at that stage was that I was very clear that this would mean my birth mother may not want to see me if indeed she was alive. I didn't know what kind of life she'd have had what just this could have done to her

Did that lead you to not try and find your birth mother? No, I still sought to trace her with the help of my adoptive father and finally met her probably about 18 months later when I was about 20 And how was that? Just really bizarre I did probably the worst thing you could do in the ranging of adoption reunion.

And that was that I stayed the weekend. I went up and stayed the weekend. I was so overwhelmed and grateful that she wanted to meet me. And did it come up in that first meeting about how you'd been conceived? I was very careful about not directly asking, you know, really traumatising. Before I met her, I didn't know if I looked like her or looked like him. Would I be turning up and I've got the face of her rapist? So I was very careful not to ask direct questions. You know, this was the first meeting. And did you form a bond over that weekend?

No, I think a bond attachment, it takes time. The last time she would have seen me was at seven days old, having to leave me in a hospital. And your journey to this point where you started to try and want some kind of justice, is that because you wanted to do it for her, with her, as part of a relationship with her? Or is it very much for you? To know that a child to be so grossly let down was horrendous and she deserved better. So it was for her, but also for me. And was it with her consent? Did she want to do this? I approached my birth mother in 2014 after doing lots of research and said, I want to try and do this in my own right. I don't think you should have to come forward.

You've done that already. And the people who had the responsibility did nothing. There's all this information. Plus, I am DNA evidence that wasn't available. My intention isn't to have you involved, it's for me to be able to do a victimless evidence-based prosecution. So I thought yeah this is hopefully going to get somewhere and justice for both of us. I'm talking to you now because a man raped a child. That's the reason I'm alive. I was separated from my culture, identity, history, the impact on my mental health or my sense of self. How am I not a victim?

Did you have to have your birth mother involved for this to proceed? Did you have to get her on board? It turned out that that was the one thing that made that change. So despite, from 2014, going to the police constantly, each time I found some more information, I got to the point I traced my birth father. I had a work appointment in Birmingham one week. I said, I'll be in Birmingham next week. I'll come in and take my DNA.

No, not interested, not the victim. So it came down to you had to find a way to see if she would do this with you. Well, my intention was always not to have her involved. I know, you know, I understand having worked with trauma, the impact of this. For me to feel like I am responsible for re-traumatising my birth mother and pressuring a rape victim. That was never my intention, absolutely never my intention. So I kept persevering. I connected with a journalist for the Birmingham Mail and hoped that police and social care would take notice, local MPs would take notice, not a word from any of them. And it was only when I sent that article

into the Victoria Derbyshire Show in December 2018 that things began to change. What was it that persuaded your birth mother to testify in the end? Do you know? I'm not completely sure. I know the Victoria Derbyshire Show was a catalyst for her to be thinking more. Victoria Derbyshire show was broadcast on Monday, the 5th of August. The police turned up on her doorstep that Saturday. So very quickly. Yeah. No contact with me. Because, of course, you'd been driving this.

Yeah. And my treatment by the West Midlands Police has been hostile. It's been punitive. Their approach to this case has been divisive. They've caused even more of a difficult issue between me and my birth mother just with their conduct. Did you go to your father's, your birth father's house? I did. It got to the point when I was getting nowhere with the police. I went to see him in July 2015. My partner at the time and I were talking. So we went up to Birmingham, had a hidden camera. We knocked on the door. I said, are you Carvel Bennett? He said, yes. I said, I think I'm your daughter. And he said, oh, come in in now the recording only captures in terms of video his face then and the rest of it sound when you see the recording there's a perceptible smile on his face then spent 40

minutes with him in his home asking him well you know do you remember my mother babysitting oh oh yes she babysat once he He said to me, well, you look like my daughter, other daughter. He said that he'd been invited in by a social worker to do a paternity test, which would have been a blood test, never heard anything back. Said that when he was spoken to, he didn't think it was him because of the timing. I did say outright to him, well, did you have sex with her? And he just responded, well, if you have sex with somebody, it doesn't mean you make a baby.

And that was it. I actually didn't really think about, how am I going to wrap this up? So I was just like, well, this is all weird, isn't it? And he was like, yeah, this is the most surreal experience. This is a bizarre experience. You see things like this on TV. Yeah't you took his phone number thank you for your time I think we had a brief hug and off we went did you look like him I can see some similarities and in terms of having this time getting this day in court, which, as you say, eventually had to have your birth mother testifying,

what was that like, actually, getting to court? Court happened. Obviously, there were two court hearings last year, May and August. Every opportunity for him to say guilty, considering the weight of evidence, and by that stage DNA test had been done and so just horrendous that he would make my birth mother go through that by not saying guilty and also you know he was out on bail court was rescheduled the hearing was scheduled for May initially but then with all the backlogs then when it it was postponed, excruciating, you know.

And then the actual court date, 29th of July, the first time I'd been in a physical space with both my genetic parents. That's something in itself, isn't it? Yeah, I say to people it was a birth family reunion in the backdrop of a rape trial. Which is extraordinary. Yeah. How were you feeling? how was i feeling i don't i can't even i don't even know if i've had i have the words just extraordinary to even be there extraordinary to be able to even look at him because that's the first time i've looked

in when it has been confirmed the dna test has come through my birth mother's there we had not really been in touch last time we were in physical contact with each other 2017 before that hadn't been for another 15 years there's no established bond or relationship with either of these people um fortunately solicitor was there I had friends come with me both those days two different different friends who are incredible, so protective of me. So emotional. It's been so painful. What did it feel like to see him be convicted? Just incredible.

You see other people campaigning. Hillsborough, perfect example. I just thought those families, how much, you know, it's like David and Goliath, how is this even going to be achievable? And then the sentence on top of that, just remarkable, just remarkable, really. Were you looking for him to respond in a certain way? Were you looking for any remorse? No, I don't know. There's been a lot of coverage about he didn't show remorse he didn't apologize of course he's not going to apologize you know the man's 74 he had every opportunity in the other two hearings last year to admit guilt even if he didn't mean it he was never gonna show remorse showing remorse is an admission of guilt and he's

still not done that so that didn't surprise me but it is an incredible achievement by you to have done this to have found a way to get this form of justice all these years on do you see it like that i think it's still i think it still hasn't fully sunk in um actively looking into this since 2011 2012 this only happened what two less just less than two weeks ago two weeks today he was convicted um it still hasn't dawned on me because I think when I said to someone the other day I think of this baby left in hospital who's you know you're the odds were against me and to think that I conceived in rape has actually done this is still incredible for me to digest will that help you do you think yeah but you've done this yeah i think for me part of the justice is for him to be

called to account he's absolutely responsible for the rape absolutely right that he got prison sentence um full justice isn't achieved until the council and the police force are called to account these systems don't change they want people like me to be quiet, to be brushed under the carpet. It must be very humiliating for them. It should be humiliating for them that they deemed me vexatious, didn't even meet with me, didn't even look at the evidence. And now a judge in a rape trial has said to them, you know, this has happened because of this woman and this is also somebody who's as much a victim that's what I've been trying to say to people so yeah that was incredible. So it's also it's very key just to highlight one part of that as well to have the

definition of victim extended. Yes. That's what I mean are you going to still fight? Absolutely this is part of what it's been about part of this fight has been about justice for my birth mother and justice for me. But it's a wider issue. It's not just me this has happened to. There is no kind of identified community for people conceived in rape. There's people I've spoken to saying, God, you're so brave, you're putting your head above the parapet because nobody talks about it. And unsurprisingly, you got in touch to react to that extraordinary interview. Barry said, she is most extraordinary, brave, tenacious and a remarkable person that deserves far more credit, recognition and support that seems to have been lacking throughout her endeavours of justice and hopefully some peace of mind. And we have a statement from West Midlands Police who say, we met with the rape victim on the 11th of August, that's our contributor's mother, and discussed the case with her, including media coverage. She remains really clear that she does not want to waive her right to anonymity and does not want

to enter into a dialogue about her case in public. We must respect the victim's wishes. Offender Carvel Bennett was last week found guilty of rape following our investigation and has since been jailed for 11 years. And Birmingham Children's Trust said, since April 2018, children's social care services in Birmingham have been provided by Birmingham Children's Trust. Since then, we've had no contact with your contributor. We would, of course, be very happy to meet with her if she would find it valuable. It is certainly the case that the way allegations and incidents of harm to children are handled now is very different than was the case in the 1970s. We would be happy to

discuss this with her when we meet. If you'd like to respond to anything you hear on the programme, and we would love to hear from you, you can contact us via social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour, or email us through our website. Now, stationery is big business. Last year, households in the UK spent just over three and a half million pounds on it. A survey carried out by the stationery brand Paperchase showed that 65% of their customers were women between 35 and 40. It seems pens are a big thing. On TikTok, we've seen the emergence of Pentalk. It's had 13.2 million views. It's people talking about their pens. So just what is it about pens that we find so attractive? Mum and stationery enthusiast Rhiannon Morgan,

who runs Mummy of Four YouTube channel, and Jenna Mayer's a TikToker and hand letterer who creates content about her favourite pens and handwriting, talked to Emma all about Pentalk. There is such a wide variety of pens that as a lifetime lover of pens, once I got on Pentalk. There is such a wide variety of pens that as a lifetime lover of pens, once I got on Pentalk, I was totally unaware of how many pens truly existed. Made that love explode. What is it about pens for you? I mean, I'm holding one right now. I'm

actually rarely never holding one, but it's a very plain blue biro. So I feel very strongly about pen to paper writing, living in this digital world and how powerful it is to put pen to paper. You just process things so much better. So as you're writing, when you find the perfect pen, it just makes that experience so much better. Okay. What's your favorite as a pen expert? So my top two most used pens right now are Bic Gelocity and Pentel Energel. I'm a huge lover of gel pens. Talk to me about colors. I stress about choosing a color. So most often when I'm just writing in my journal, I go towards black. But for videos, I have two daughters, they're five and six. So a lot of times I just let them pick the colors that I don't have to

worry about it. Is there a favorite at the moment? I love pink. So pink is the one I have to say, because I can see you. I don't know where you are in the world. You can tell me that as well. But I can see you on video here. And what have you got behind you? So I'm in Fargo, North Dakota. This is my home office. So behind me here is my pen cart, which you can kind of see. Oh my gosh. How many pens do you own? A lot. I do a pen test series on TikTok and I've done 111 packages of pens. So the collection is huge. Okay. And people tune in to what you're doing what? My handwriting. So handwriting has been a hobby my entire life. I have really nice printing. And

so that's kind of what started my TikTok account is sharing my favorite pens. And then from sharing my favorite pens, I've discovered this world of pens like the big gelosity and Pentel Energel. I didn't even know existed until the comment section started blowing up of everybody sharing their favorite pen. So I just go to the comments and buy more pens. And people love to see the different colors in a pack of pens. And they like watching me write because of my handwriting. So it's just been such a thrill. As someone who has terrible handwriting, who is left handed and honestly does stuff to pen lids that shouldn't be done in terms of chewing them, you would not approve of anything. But I am never without a pen. Is it a female sport, pen watching?

Yeah, definitely. My market is more women than men. Let's bring in Rhiannon at this point. Do you watch people online with pens or are you so busy with your own? Yeah, I'm kind of busy between running, between my, I've got four children and I have a blog and a YouTube channel. So that kind of keeps me, that's my kind of full-time job. But I use a blog and a YouTube channel. So that kind of keeps me, that's my full-time job. But I use a lot of pens between what I do with work and planning and things. A lot of my content's about organisation and obviously a lot of the moments about back to school and getting all the stationary supplies and things ready for all four children I've got from a 17-year-old down to a four-year-old. So we have lots of different types of stationary needs. It's still majority female preserve, whether it's the purchasing of this pens and broader

stationery, we do not wish to leave erasers, paper, whatever else. But what do you make of that? Well, yeah. I mean, my husband just would pick up any pen lying around the house and he would chew it as well, much like you. But I've got to say erasable pens are something I did not discover until my mid thirties and they have been a game changer. So you can, because you can rub them out when you make a mistake, it doesn't ruin everything you've written. It doesn't spoil the page. Cross it out. Oh, well that would be upsetting because it would make it look messy. And especially for like two of my children have autism so well that's that must be very homework

yes yeah if they're doing a piece of homework or something and they make a mistake that could be really really stressful i say it's okay i can just rub it out so all these pens i don't know if you've got a lovely part yes very pretty um so i buy the erasable pens especially for them if they're doing a piece of work and there's a mistake we say it's no problem we can just rub it out and start again and it just it solves so many stress issues, honestly. Do you get a sense of peace from it all though as well? Because I'm seeing that come through with some of our messages.

Yeah, I think writing down things like notes and things as I'm going through editing videos, as I'm kind of creating content, it's a bit more creative. So whereas I plan digitally for like where we've got to be and what we've got to do, ideas and things when you put pen to paper seem to flow a lot better, seems to get things in order in your brain when you get them down on the page. We are getting so many messages on this and I'm sure that won't surprise you Rhiannon and it

won't surprise you Jenna. Good point here, if it's buy a metal pen you can refill, there's enough plastic in the world already, thank you for that. Sarah says, a companion for life. This is a woman after my own heart. Clearly never worked in a hospital then. I count myself lucky if I keep my pen all day. And another one, my favourite pen, Emma, is a silver Parker fountain pen. I've had it since school. It's seen me through university. I love writing letters with it. It leaves an inky blue blot on my finger, which makes me smile. I hope it's a companion for the rest of my life. Thank you, says Hannah. Jenna, I'm going to give the final word to you

as someone who, I mean, is pen talk your life now? This is your world. It is a big part of my life, definitely. Handwriting is my business. And so I spend a lot of time on pen talk because I love handwriting. Are you into the eraser thing as well? Yes, I have some of those erasable pens. Fun fact, if they get warm, the ink disappears. And

if you put it in cold, you can get the ink to reappear with those erasable pens. Who knew stationery could be so moving? Now, she's 65, a renowned actor, and her name is Leslie Manville. And she's on a mission to change the way the world sees older women, not least in her latest TV performance in Channel 4's I Am series. Leslie plays Maria, who at 60 and after 30-odd years of marriage is finding it suffocating and decides she wants more from life. Here's a clip. In it, her husband John wants to make a birthday cake for her

and the children who are coming over to celebrate the day. They don't need cake. They need a birthday cake. They're not six and eight. Oh, for God's sake. I'm just saying, we're going to have a late lunch. We're going to have nice wine. We're going to have the kids here.

We're going to celebrate the birthday. I'll open my presents. We don going to have the kids here. We're going to celebrate the birthday. I'll open my presents. We don't need a cake. I'll just have candles on top that I've got to blow out and be embarrassed again, all over again, after work. We don't need a cake. I'm just trying to celebrate you. You don't need to do anything to try and celebrate me.

Whatever I do just turns to dust. No, it doesn't. That isn't true. Just come and eat hummus with me and drink your wine. You don't have to do anything else to make me happy. I'm perfectly happy. That was Leslie Manville with Michael Gould playing her husband, John. She told Emma why she's keen to show how women over 60 actually are, rather than what we think they should be. It is quite a personal thing because I encounter a lot of women who are kind of feeling, if they're over 60, that there's some kind of winding down happening. And I personally don't feel that remotely.

But the whole story of I Am Maria came about because I was collaborating with Dominic Savage, the director, and that's what he's done with all of the programmes in the series. And I'd read a piece in the paper some years ago about the highest divorce rate in the UK being the over 55s. And that mostly those divorces were instigated by the women. And I thought that was a really interesting thing that, you know, the kids have left school and you're left you're left with this person that you've done it all with and um you hopefully are looking at another who knows 20 30 years of life and you maybe don't want to live with the compromises you've been living with and you want to be

free and have the freedom to live your life in the way that you want to live it. So that's how it sort of came about. And then we thought it would be more interesting for the story that, you know, the marriage is not a bad one. You can't look at it and say, well, he's a horrible guy. You know, he's you can see why he'd want to she'd want to run away from him, that it's a perfectly safe, secure marriage, but there's something about the fact that it is so hermetically sealed and safe that makes her want to escape it. I actually think it's a wonderful performance. I've seen it, so bravo on that.

But I actually think the opening bit where she tries to initiate sex with him in the kitchen is really telling because she still wants him. You know, she still wants to try and do that. And he just, not ruining anything here, but he just wants to make love with candles, not have sex with your character. I mean, it's kind of, it's perfect, as you say, that it's not a bad marriage to show off that issue.

No, and it's kind of, the sort of cliche is being reversed, isn't it? That she wants to have sex over the table and why not? And he's saying, no, it's all got to be nice and when the time's right and after I've wooed you or whatever. It can't be the woman just going, come on, I want some hummus, but I wouldn't mind a bit of sex as well. I think that should be on a T-shirt that perhaps many people would buy. I did read a brilliant interview with you where you say you want to go out dancing, get sweaty, drink too much, go home at three in the morning, have sex and dress how you want.

Maybe not all on the same day. I don't know. But I mean, amen to that. Do you think we are finally starting to see women over the age of 60 in a different way? I do. I think it's been such a slow burn, though. I mean, really. I mean, it's been the slowest burn in history, hasn't it? And we're not done with it yet. But maybe some people will be tempted to say, well, you know, it's because of the life I lead and the career that I have. You know, I'm not ready to, and I think loads of women are not ready to conform just because you've reached a certain milestone in your age. I know it's got to do with, you know, your health. And if you've got your health and you're in good shape,

I do feel as energetic and vital and fit as I was when I was, you know, 40 years younger. Well, I also think it's very interesting because of how we're seeing older women, because you said in a recent article that plastic surgery feels like a betrayal of my sex. What did you mean by that? Because obviously the image of what you see of an older woman is for some women, certainly in the public eye seems to be about maintaining that you don't get old physically. Yes, well, I can't get my head around that, really. I mean, what do you do when you're 90? You're still trying to look 25. You know, we all want to look as good as we can look. But I do think this whole thing which is mostly female the pressure is mostly

on females that oh that you know so I will have a knife put in my eyes and underneath my chin and it'll all sort it out it's it's not the answer I suppose it does feel like a betrayal of my sex but it's quite I suppose it's a bit of a big statement to make really well I mean people you must have been surrounded by a fair few for women whose faces just aren't moving and in your in your line of work that's not great of course of course I am I mean not so much here but you know when you go to the states you witness it um a lot more and it's a personal thing I suppose I mean I've got I I think I'd probably better stop banging on about it because it's I've I've said it in quite a few interviews now but it does

put me off an actress when I look at her and you can just see that things aren't moving and and and and they're trying to portray you know know, so-called regular women, you know, women who wouldn't have access to that kind of treatment and wouldn't have the money to do that, those kind of procedures. Well, it's not banging on at all. If you can't do this on Women's Hour, where can you do it? I've got to ask. I've got to ask. How are you preparing for life as Margaret? You're going into the Crown and we've had Vanessa Kirby on very recently. And I'm very intrigued. How does one prepare to be Princess Margaret? Well, I've known I was going to be playing the role for two years.

So I've read all the books and that's kind of really all you can do. You watch any footage of her. Obviously, I went right back to the beginning of her life and looked at it all and then you start to listen to her in the more recent history, which is when I'll be playing her. And obviously watch Vanessa and Helena, who've done such brilliant interpretations of her because ultimately I'm taking over from them.

So when we had Imelda Staunton and she was talking about preparing for the Queen, she talks about marching around her garden, trying to get it right. I mean, I know we've been in lockdown, but prior to that, because you have known for a while, did you insist you had to go to Mystique and have a cigarette holder and champagne on tap? I didn't, but I've actually been to Mystique a very long time ago and I missed meeting Princess Margaret by one night. I had to come home because, long story short, I had mastitis and I had to fly home. And I was invited, because it's where I was staying, to be a house guest of Princess Margaret's. And apparently that night she was playing the drums.

Oh, I mean, I mean, really, my life would have been made. The status is a thief of a happy life anyway. I know I've suffered it myself, but to miss out on playing drums with Margaret. I know! Brilliant. And you can find the I Am series on demand at all four. Hooray, says Helen.

Finally, women over 60 are being heard. I took up Bertinatium Dance at 63, have got a lovely new partner and am fit, fingers crossed and positive in my approach to life. We ladies over 60 are not all sitting on the sofa knitting booties for grandchildren. We haven't given up on sex, life and fun. Or hummus. Have a wonderful weekend. and a top stand-up comedian who is eager to learn more. And we have a host of brand new episodes coming up, including episodes on Ivan the Terrible, Nell Gwynn and Ramesses the Great. And we'll be joined by comedians including Sally Phillips, Jessica Knappett, Olga Koch and Sophie Duker, amongst many other fantastic names.

So if you want to laugh and learn, then search for You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.