Woman's Hour - Liberal Democrat Leader Jo Swinson. Plus Anti-Slavery Commissioner Dame Sara Thornton

Episode Date: December 6, 2019

We continue our series of interviews with party leaders looking at what the political parties are doing to win women’s votes. Today it’s Jo Swinson, leader of the Liberal Democrats.Plus we hear from a trafficked woman now living in a safe house and the new Anti-Slavery Commissioner Dame Sara Thornton, charged with listening to those brought into the UK to be used as slaves or to work in the sex trade.Producer Beverley Purcell Presenter Emma BarnettGuest; Jo Swinson Guest; Dame Sara Thornton

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast with me, Emma Barnett. Good morning. Jo Swinson, the leader of the Liberal Democrats, is our first guest today in the latest of our leaders' interviews. With just six days to go until polling day, hear what she has to say about who she thinks will be the next Prime Minister, the issue of managing an alleged sexual harasser in her party,

and why she's trying to channel the suffragettes. We will also be joined by the former head of the National Police Chiefs Council, Dame Sarah Thornton. She's here to talk about her new role as the Anti-Slavery Commissioner. If you want to get involved, as always, please do so. We love hearing from you on Twitter or Instagram. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. She's in her 30s, promised to be Prime Minister at the start of this campaign. And yet the more the public see of her, the less they seem to warm to her.

You won't see her this evening on the BBC's head-to-head debate between Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn, but you will hear her here on Woman's Hour. Meet Jo Swinson, the leader of the Liberal Democrats. I spoke to her just before coming on air and I began by asking for her party's distinctive offer to women. Well, I think politics is not serving many people well at the moment and I certainly don't think it's serving women well. I'm delighted to be the first woman to lead the Liberal Democrats and I think we can do politics in a different way, in a much more collaborative and an open way. One of the things which I think has already made a difference having myself leading the Lib Dems is the focus in this particular manifesto. So our biggest

spending commitment is on childcare, which obviously is something which affects both men and women, but we also know with the gender inequality in society that very often the biggest part of caring for children falls on women's shoulders, and with more free childcare kicking in from the point at which paid parental leave ends at nine months, this will really help women and men make choices about going back to work

when the unaffordability of childcare is a massive problem. While that may be the case, many of our listeners who are women, many are men, do not have children and will find it rather reductive that the first thing that you say is my big offer to women is childcare. Well, it's not the only thing that we are offering. I'm talking as a mum of two kids. It's certainly something which lots of people I speak to, it is a real issue.

And it's an issue beyond people with children because we know the gender pay gap in our society. One of the big drivers of it is a massive... The window through which you've chosen to speak to women this morning is through them having children and needing childcare. I mean, this could be an interview on Women's Hour in the 1950s. Oh, Emma, for heaven's sake. Look, I'm talking about the biggest offer in our manifesto.

Yes, some say it's eye-wateringly expensive. Well, I think it's important that we put that out there. And we'll benefit those who can afford childcare as well as those who can't. I think it will certainly be something which will support many families. We've got significant investment in universal credit, which obviously is something which will help people, particularly those who are struggling on low incomes. comes and you know when people are thinking about the future um and whether that's about how we tackle the climate emergency uh whether that's how we deal with uh mental health and protect our nhs uh whether that's the uh the future for our children all of our children in terms of investment in schools you know liberal democrats plan for the for the future you know invest in all of those

things and remaining in the european Union is the way to guarantee that. We'll come to that, I promise. Especially as I'm interviewing you, we will come to that. But you have apologised on this campaign trail and previously for your role in the coalition in the sense of signing off and voting for sure-start centre closures, the benefit cap, two-child limit, the so-called bedroom tax, austerity politics, which disproportionately affected and affects women, present tense. Why should women trust you now?

Well, I'm being very honest about what we got wrong in coalition. And I'm also being straightforward about how we would invest to improve those things in the future. And I think that's important. And it's, as I say, it's clear and straightforward. But you've done it before. So why should they believe you won't do it again? In 2010, our economy had suffered a massive heart attack. And there was no easy way of doing that.

And we were in a coalition government, which meant that we were not able to deal with that in a way that a Liberal Democrat government would have done. So, for example, there would have been more tax rises if Liberal Democrats had been able to deal with that on our own. I think people are familiar with that line of argument. I suppose what I'm asking is, how can women trust you after you've done that? Look, people, I think, can look at my record and standing up for the things that I believe in. I'm being very clear about our commitment in terms of the European Union. There's been plenty of people that have tried to sway me off that and say, you know, you shouldn't, you know, some people don't like that,

you should say something different. And I'm absolutely sticking to my principles. And I'm also somebody who experienced our time in government and has learned from that. And I think you can see that in our response to that, in terms of what we're putting forward for the future. I mean, there has been an issue with your cut through. There's an article out by Sir John Curtis today in The Times, a respected pollster, of course, with polling evidence to show voters draw a blank on Liberal Democrat policies away from your revoke Article 50 stance or even including it. I mean, only 25% of those polled can identify what is a Lib Dem policy or not, which is much lower than the Conservatives

and Labour. Why do you think you've failed to communicate your vision beyond opposing Brexit? Well, you know, Brexit is obviously a key issue in this election and the Liberal Democrats' position on it, unlike some other parties, is very clear. Crystal clear. But it's about when you vote for a party, you don't just vote for one thing. You want to know what kind of Britain you're signing up to. Absolutely. And we want to see a Britain that is fair, open and inclusive, where we properly invest in our mental health. And, you know, tackling the climate emergency. We've got these bold plans. I've been setting out those plans. I have wanted to have more opportunities to do so. For example, we argued that we should not have the debates just between Boris Johnson and Jeremy

Corbyn, two men who both ultimately want to leave the European Union, negotiate Brexit and make Brexit happen. Well, Jeremy Corbyn is staying neutral. Yeah, he still wants to negotiate a Brexit. Okay, well, let's talk about the prime minister position. You started this campaign saying, vote for Jo Swinson on your literature. I got one through the door. She'll be prime minister. You've now accepted you're not going to be prime minister.

Has that been a bitter pill to swallow? I'm not going to apologise for being ambitious for my country. Or unrealistic? Look, at the beginning of the campaign, when you're talking about first past the post-electoral system with genuine four-party politics, I think we all know the volatility

that exists there and therefore also the opportunity. And there's a lot at stake at this election. You know, the bonds of our United Kingdom family of nations, our position in the European Union, the urgency of the need to tackle the climate emergency.

But you're not going to be in charge of that. So I'm trying to answer your question, Emma. So when I think about all that's at stake in this election and the opportunity that we saw that there could be a moment to change things and shake things up, yeah, I think it's absolutely right that we set out bold and ambitious plans to do just that. And equally, in recognising that deal that's been done between Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson, that that does change the electoral arithmetic and focusing our campaign accordingly.

One side, again, they're not here to talk for themselves, but one side definitely does not recognise it as a deal. But yes, I think the listeners will understand what you're saying there. If Women's Hour listeners vote Liberal Democrat, who do they get as Prime Minister? Because we've just established it isn't you.

It's a very important question six days before the polls. We don't know what the result of the election is going to be, but we know if Boris Johnson gets a majority, that it will be Boris Johnson. And we know what the result of the election is going to be, but we know if Boris Johnson gets a majority that it will be Boris Johnson. And we know that the way to stop Boris Johnson in many seats is to vote Liberal Democrat, where the Liberal Democrats are in a position to take seats from the Conservatives. I don't think the listeners needed you to tell them that if a man wins a majority or a woman, they're the prime minister.

I'm asking about a slightly more complex picture if Boris Johnson doesn't get a majority. You have said, and I quote, that you will not support Jeremy Corbyn and you will not support Boris Johnson. That's true. If Boris Johnson doesn't get a majority, you will have to put Jeremy Corbyn in number 10. It's time to admit that.

No. And we have seen just today and yesterday more revelations about his failure to deal with anti-Semitism in his party. This is not somebody who stands up for equality and the rights of individuals. Now, if nobody wins a majority at the election next Thursday, I don't think there should be any reason to assume that those two men will continue to be the leaders of those parties. So you're going to have to count on the Labour Party ousting Jeremy Corbyn to get a different Prime Minister? Well, that is one possibility for certain. So when you say vote Lib Dem and will be Prime Minister, you can't fill in the blank at the moment? Well, I obviously

would love that job. I want more people to vote Liberal Democrat. What people will get when they elect more Liberal Democrat MPs is they will have more power in that next parliament to stop Brexit, to argue for remaining and for tackling the climate emergency, investing in mental health. Well, literally, we do not know.

If your only chance is through the Labour Party to get another vote on that referendum, which is what you said you will go for if you don't get a majority and you can't revoke Article 50, you're going to have to put the leader of the Labour Party in position. Could you at least accept that?

No, I do not. Well, who is it? Well, look, i think we should be in these um in these unusual times i think we should be uh creative in how we approach things so i don't know what the result is going to be next thursday but there's lots of different ways of looking at these things one of the things that i set out uh out back in August when we were trying to stop a no-deal Brexit and we succeeded in stopping a no-deal Brexit, trying to secure a people's vote,

was to work with people across a variety of different parties. You still need one person to be the Prime Minister. Do you accept that as a form of principle? And at that time... Are you saying we're going to move to a three-leader state? And at that time, I put forward, suggested, respected individuals for the potential of the government of national unity. So could you give us a name today of who you would like to be prime minister,

if it isn't you? Well, I would love to be prime minister. If it isn't you. And I will work with Liberal Democrat MPs in the next parliament to stop Brexit. And I think that cooperative working has been successful in stopping Brexit twice already. Just categorically, six days to the polls, you will not say who will be the Prime Minister.

I'm the leader of the Liberal Democrats. I'm going to be getting as many Liberal Democrat MPs elected as possible. But we just talked about... And I'm the Liberal Democrat candidate for Prime Minister. But we just accepted that you're not going to be Prime Minister. I recognise that is looking unlikely at the moment, but we have not had that vote. So in the unlikely event that you are, it's you. But in the likely event that it isn't you, who is it, Jo Swinson?

I ask you now, I can't even remember how many times I've tried to get this answer. Who is the prime minister if there isn't an outright majority for the Conservatives? Well, we don't know who's going to be leading various different parties. We do, it's Jeremy Corbyn. We don't know if it will be Jeremy Corbyn. And, and, you know, I mean, let's remember, there's plenty of Labour MPs, or certainly in the previous Parliament, who don't want Jeremy Corbyn to be Prime Minister. But they've come behind him now. Well, yeah. If they haven't, they've come to your party or they stand as independents or they resign the House. I'm sorry to say that you won't give an answer on that. And I think that is very difficult for listeners to understand.

But we're going to have to move on because our time together is precious. A striking policy of yours away from Brexit is the reform that you want to make to the Gender Recognition Act, which will allow anyone without any doctor involvement, something we've discussed here at length on Woman's Hour, to change their gender on all official documents. Gender self-identification, as it's referred to, would mean a blanket law, which could mean any predatory man could self-identify as a woman to gain access to women in what have been traditionally women-only spaces, especially vulnerable women, for instance, women's shelters. Do you understand why some women are very concerned about this? Well, I think everybody wants to have confidence, of course,

that if somebody is a victim of domestic violence, domestic abuse, that there are safe spaces for them, whoever their partner was and whoever they are as an individual. And so it's right that all of those spaces can properly assess the risks. And in exactly the same way that you wouldn't allow into a woman's refuge the same-sex partner of a woman who had been being abused, you also wouldn't let somebody who was a risk of abusing whoever they were. You might not know they're an abuser and they might, as I just described it, try and abuse this law. Look, we have a real problem here that there are many vulnerable people in our society, many vulnerable trans women and trans men in our society. Do you know? Well, we know that the rates of mental health problems of people attempting suicide is much higher in the trans community.

I just wonder, when you were writing a manifesto, did you figure this out? Did you get some data on how large this group is? Well, I mean, we could go and look it up in the census. It's obviously a small part of the population. But I mean, I do challenge... Is it hundreds? Is it thousands? Is it millions? It's clearly not millions. I imagine that the trans population in the country

is clearly in the thousands. But I definitely that the trans population in the country is clearly in the thousands. But I definitely challenge the suggestion that if it's a small number of people who are feeling driven in some cases to suicide, that this is not an issue that we should be addressing. What about their vulnerability versus someone who's in a shelter and doesn't want that space to be open in any way to someone who could abuse this reform to this act, in the way I described. There's not a hierarchy of equalities. Everybody's rights as an individual matter. But by reforming this, you may create a hierarchy. No, I entirely disagree.

Well, I know that. It's your policy. Yeah, sure. So we need to make sure everybody is protected. And at the moment, there is a group of people who are facing huge discrimination, huge bias. And as I say, that has very, very real consequences in terms of violence, in terms of self-harm and potential suicide. I'm not talking about those people. I actually asked you a question, which was about those women in women's shelters. And you have completely ignored those people and gone towards the people who you're now going to say will be able to come in who may be able to abuse this. No, the first thing I said was that every shelter needs to be able to keep people safe and to do so on the basis of risk.

And frankly, whether somebody is cis or whether they are trans, that risk assessment needs to be done. And I reject the suggestion that trans women are more likely to do that. What you're saying is... That was not my suggestion, to be clear. I was saying that there could be an abuse, ironically not by the group that you're seeking to protect, by people who are going to try and use this reform in a dangerous way. So by opening the door with that reform, it will be on your head. proper risk assessments and structures in place to prevent abuse. And that's clearly the answer. The 2010 Equality Act sets out sex as a protected characteristic.

How will you guarantee women's sex-based protections when you've reformed the Gender Recognition Act? Look, I think that trans women are women. And women, whether they are cis or whether they are trans, whether they are gay, whether they are straight, whether they are bi, whether they are black, whether they are white, whether they are Asian, whatever their mix of characteristics are,

nobody is just one thing on its own. And equality law does not work if it either tries to elevate you know one protected characteristic above others or doesn't recognize that people have these multiple characteristics because we all do and we all face different prejudice and discrimination on that basis. But the law does have to be precise which is why lawyers have rowed about this they they are in dispute over this exact question and you haven't given any clarity in your answer. I mean I do do, I do, I recognise that there is controversy about this. I think there is much of the media reporting, I'm not saying this is of yourself right now, but certainly in much

of the print media, much of this reporting is sensationalised. You know, the discussions around, you know, going to toilets and such like, I mean, I don't know the last time that somebody asked you for your birth certificate when you went to the loo because, you know, that just does not happen. So I think there is an element of this debate, which has been sensationalised, but I'm not sensationalising it and Women's Hour doesn't do that. I know you're not saying that, but the 2020 Equality Act sets out sex as a protected characteristic. I ask you again, Jo Swinson, how will you guarantee women's sex-based protections if you reform this Act? I don't believe that there is a problem in making sure that we can protect the rights of trans men and trans women

and also protect the rights of cis women and make sure that we can give those spaces which are safe for women, whether that's refuges, whether that's other spaces, that we can make sure that that works. It is not beyond possibility to do that. What kind of feminist are you, Jo Swinson? An enthusiastic one. Are you the kind of feminist when you're Women's and Equalities Minister in the coalition who doesn't speak out against the former chief of your party, Lord Renard, who had to apologise to women who accused

him of repeat sexual harassment? Well, I did speak out. Not while it was going on, you didn't? I did. When you were a women's inequalities minister? I absolutely raised this issue. Why did the reporter who broke the story, Cathy Newman, say you'd gone to ground. Well, look, I took action to protect women who had come to me and talked to me about very concerning experiences. When you were Women in the Quarters, Minister? This was in 2007. It was a long time before that.

I'm talking about when you've had power. Yes, and those women, if you speak to those women. I have. I've interviewed a few of them. Indeed. And I think they will tell you that I took very seriously what their concerns were and took action, which ultimately resulted in him no longer being chief executive of the party. Now, am I frustrated? That's not the question I asked you.

When you were women and equalities minister, I have spoken to those women. You went to ground. When you had the keys to office, you did not speak publicly about Lord Renard and those allegations. Well, I have and I do speak publicly about it. Since and before. And I have made very clear that I don't think he should have a place in the party. It is a source of huge frustration to me that he is still. And I have made very clear that I don't think he should have a place in the party. It is a source of huge frustration to me that he is still... Why on earth was he out on the campaign trail during a recent by-election for the Liberal Democrats? Well, because he is a member of the party and there is, as I say, it is a sort of huge frustration to me that that is the case because... But you're the leader of that party.

Yes, and we have processes within the party that if those allegations were made now and investigated now, I have every confidence that he would be thrown out. You said you're an enthusiastic feminist. But you have someone who had to apologise if he had, and the apology was also criticised, inadvertently encroached on the personal space of the women. You've got him out campaigning for your party in a recent by-election.

Not with my blessing. But under your name. And incidentally not with the blessing of the candidate in that by-election either. So was it a mistake to have Lord Renard on the campaign trail? I do not want him on the campaign trail. So why are you not in control of your party? I am not in charge of who is a member of the party. But you are in charge of coordinating who goes out to campaign,

especially when they've been accused of sexual harassment. I can make very clear, the power that I do have, is to make crystal clear that I take the view that he is not welcome because of what he did. Has Lord Renard campaigned on the general election trail? Well, not anywhere that I have been encouraging. I hope not. I don't know. I do not know if he has turned up to a campaign office and picked up a bundle of leaflets because I don't have surveillance in every campaign office.

Have you personally asked him not to campaign? I have not spoken to that man for a very long time. Do you think you've been treated differently during this campaign because you are a woman? I'm pretty certain that that's the case. In what way? Well, I mean... You know, you talked about proudly blazing a trail. Yeah, indeed. And I get asked questions that male colleagues don't get asked about my kids. I get judged on my appearance in a way that wouldn't happen to men, whether it's my voice or my shoes or my earrings. And I recognise all of that for what it is. And I want to change that. And the way to change it is to get stuck in and to do that. I mean, if I think back to 100 years ago, and what the suffragettes did,

I think about what they had to endure so that we can both sit here and have this conversation that the people listening can go on Thursday, and they can all vote in that election, whether they're a man or whether they're a woman, you know, I think, well, okay, so if we want to change things, I'm going to use my role as a leader and ensure that there's a different way of doing leadership. Lead by example. Let's come back to suffragettes in just one minute. But, you know, you have ridiculed Boris Johnson's credentials as a father and as a husband at a rally yesterday in Scotland, saying, quipping, he's not much of a family man. A man couldn't trash you as a mother and get away with it in this campaign trail, could they? If

Boris Johnson turned round and questioned your abilities as a mother, he would be a rampant sexist. Look, I made what was clearly a joke at a rally. At his children's expense? Which was, no, no, not at all. Well, if somebody said your father wasn't a family man, how would you feel? It was a pun on talking about family of nations and being a family man.

Look, you know, people can make their own minds up. I've been invited on multiple occasions by journalists to criticise Boris Johnson in terms of his remarks about his children. And I take the view that people can draw that line and people can make their own minds up. Do you think you've been a bit sexist against Mr Johnson? No, I don't. I think he, on the other hand,

has been incredibly sexist about women. He has been patronising. He has called elite women athletes wet otters. He has not respondedising. He has called elite women athletes wet otters. He has not responded in any way adequately to the allegations that Charlotte Edwards talked about in terms of when she described being groped by him

at lunch. He has described Muslim women as looking like letterboxes and bank robbers. All of which you say is true. Mr Johnson is not here to reply. We look forward to hopefully getting him in in the six days we've got here at Women's Hour. Good luck, Emma. Is he not even agreeing to do Women's Hour? My goodness. We will see. We are very grateful for your time. But you mentioned the suffragettes yesterday. Emmeline Pankhurst, the leader of the suffragettes, was a conservative and a great fan of democracy.

That's why she fought so hard for women to have the vote. She probably, probably, we can't obviously say for sure, would have supported the democratic result of a legal referendum. We don't know what she would have thought. But the point is, do you think your revoke Article 50 extreme stance, as it has been described by some, is anti-democratic and do you regret it? No and no. I want to stop Brexit. I'm being very open about that, as you have recognised. And at this democratic event that we are in right now, I'm making sure we give people that opportunity. Let's remember... You just might not have got Emmeline Pankhurst's vote. to their own views. Six million people did sign a petition to revoke Article 50. So this is, I think, in no way extreme.

This is a mainstream view. There are millions and millions of people who want to stop Brexit. And I think it's right that they should have a voice in this election and they should have a choice and they can vote Liberal Democrat.

Six days to go and you ended it right on note there. Jo Swinson, thank you very much for your time. We do appreciate you coming to Woman's Hour.

Thank you. That's the latest in our Woman's Hour Leaders Interviews. Let us know your thoughts. Don't forget, of to Woman's Hour. Thank you. That's the latest in our Woman's Hour Leaders Interviews. Let us know your thoughts. Don't forget, of course, if you miss any of our interviews, if you miss the live programme, you can catch up via the BBC Sounds app and do

so, please, and let us know what you think. Lots of you already getting in touch. We'll come back to some of those remarks a bit later. Now, Dame Sarah Thornton is the new Anti-Slavery Commissioner. She's been in post for seven months. She used to be head of the National Police Chiefs Council. Before that, she was chief constable of Thames Valley Police,

which were heavily criticised for failing to help hundreds of young girls who were groomed and sexually abused by gangs in Oxford. Part of her new job as anti-slavery commissioner is listening to people who've been trafficked and used as slaves, including women who've been used for sex. Siobhan Tai has been speaking to one woman in her 20s who's now living in a safe house and she's from Eastern Europe originally. So my room is big and I like change the room every week. I change my bed and things. I'm happy to show you the second floor we are in the second floor

and this is my room it's a big room I told you it's lovely and we have a lovely view it's a large room with a large bed it's really cosy it's really clean lovely and homely and comfortable

and as you say it's safe you've got everything you need. Yeah maybe one one of the problems is like we're struggling is the kitten that is yeah. In this house it's two women they live from Vietnam and they cook fish all the time and it's terrible. I mean smelling fish in the morning it is not a good thing. My name is Minka, and I do the operations and development of Ella's home. So it's just a four-bedroom house. It looks very normal. We also have a lounge, which we're using as an emergency fifth bedroom.

The lady who was in there was meant to be here for two weeks, but she's got nowhere else to go. How many people here? five in total now all trafficked yep yep we only work with women who've been trafficked we only have service users who have experienced sexual exploitation so all the women here in the home have experienced some form of sexual abuse, a huge amount of trauma. You know, people in the past who couldn't say anything about their past experiences without fainting or becoming very emotional. It's extremely hard for women to recap what's happened to them. And a lot of it is blurry, a lot of drugs involved,

a lot of sort of physical abuse. My name's Emily Chalk and I'm the founder of Ellis. So somebody told me that you ran to establish this place. A few years ago. I ran from Edinburgh to London over 16 days to raise the funds to get this place open. Why did you do that and why did you do it off your own back? Good question. Well that's a long story but it was at that time it seemed like the most sensible idea to raise you know the way forward

to raise the money to open it. But to raise the money individually rather than getting a government grant? Yeah so we set up to provide long-term support post NRM so NRM National Referral Mechanism is the support given by the government for people who've experienced trafficking but we set up to provide the ongoing support after that time of which there isn't the funding so we we funded that independently okay so we are in the kitchen now and we drink coffee and here I'm with my one of my two friends I can call friends I just don't see them like support workers they are friends what kind of support do they give you for sure sure they do documents, but I'm not good in this kind of document. But for me, the support I get from them, it's emotional. I mean, documents are important because we're living in the UK

and we have to prove everything what we're doing. But the most important for me is these people support me in an emotional way. They remind me I'm safe being here. I know they're not going to share with other people. How do you fill your day? What do you do during your day? I study, I do English and maths. I'm four days per week in college but it's so difficult for me to live in UK and sometimes I feel just tired and it's language and I'm not feeling really comfortable like being amid a new people in my life I just it's so scared it's like you feel like new people looks like dangers new dangers

in your life it's I understand that have to do with my experience but it's really really hard to be close with your friends and try to be comfortable. And I guess trust is difficult. It's a difficult word. Let's start from there. It's really difficult for me to say that word sometimes. Yeah, it's hard to trust people again. And yeah, to be in here UK, yeah, people have been by force. It was not not their choice and you've been trafficked yes yes yes I have been but I I can say like I was one of the lucky woman because I had the police support and when you get the police get you and they are like don't worry we are here to support you

and what is most important for us it's you to be safe and you're just scared because this kind of people they put you the idea if you call the police you're going to have problems because the police going to put you in the jail. And I hear that every second day. When people do bad things to you, you just say to them, I'm going to call the police. But they put this idea in your mind, you're going to have a problem, not them. It's a form of control.

Yeah, of course, they control your mind. You lost your personality, you lost your trust you lost yourself can you see your future staying here in the uk good question that is really good question and difficult to answer because um i mean i have here a new life or the second chance but the problem is I don't have friends and I miss my parents so I really miss my parents I have years to see them three years now three years you haven't seen your parents yeah it's not because I don't have permission to see them but the truth is I'm scared to see them I don't know how they're going to react i miss them do you speak to them on the phone yeah i speak to my dad but yeah but yeah i mean yeah i miss them i love them and i

miss them but sometimes you just feel shame and blame for what happened to you your support workers holding your hand yeah this is like your temporary family for a little while, maybe. This house is my family now. Siobhan Tyatt, a safe house for women. I'm now joined, as I said, by Dame Sarah Thornton, the new anti-slavery commissioner. Good morning. Good morning. We heard in that report how difficult it is for women to tell their stories. How reliant are you in your role on these kinds of testimonies, especially in these early months of the role? I've been on a steep learning curve as I've got into this new job.

I know quite a lot about the policing of issues around modern slavery and human trafficking, but all these difficult, difficult challenges around supporting victims are something that I've spent a lot of time going to safe houses, meeting victims and survivors to understand firsthand. And I think that was a really good testimony, which just illustrates how difficult it is for people to tell their story, that fear of reprisal, that feeling of being very scared and not trusting anybody. And then the other difficulty is that when people have been through very traumatic experiences, we're always very concerned that by asking the story,

you're asking people to relive that trauma. And that itself can be really traumatising. I mean, there has been a concern that having a police officer in this role means there'll be too much focus on law enforcement rather than on victims. How can you broach that? One of the requirements of my role is that I have to set out a strategic plan, which was laid before Parliament in October. And the first priority in that strategic plan is about enhancing the support for victims. It's really important that we do that but it's also really important that

traffickers are prosecuted but the other part of the plan which I think is equally kind of the third leg of the stool which is about preventing this from happening in the first place. What can we do to prevent labour exploitation? What can we do with countries of origin where people are coming to this country to look at the systemic and the structural issues which lie behind a lot of these issues? It is an independent post. How do you make sure the government, whichever it is, after next week, doesn't interfere and at the same time, of course, make sure you're not ignored and that your suggestions are taken very seriously. So there's two levels that that operates on.

In an ideal world, I would love to be able to put my plan directly before Parliament. I have to submit it via the Home Secretary. But he or she is only able to change what's in the plan with my agreement. So there's a bit of protection there. But in an ideal world, I would love it to be direct to Parliament. But what I am then doing, I've got the power of my voice, I can write reports, I can commission research, I can work in partnership with people.

And I have access to ministers and can raise issues with ministers. Clearly, the current elections are disrupted that but as soon as we have a new government, I'll be back putting issues to ministers. You had to apologise for what happened in Oxford. Gangs of men grooming, sexually abusing, raping teenage girls. What do you think you've learned or police have learned from that time that you can bring to this post? That was a really difficult time. It was back in 2013 after six men had been convicted after a lengthy trial at the Old Bailey and very brave, courageous victims and survivors had given evidence. And I saw most of those women and their families at the time to apologise for the fact

that we'd just taken far too long to bring the traffickers to justice. We hadn't kind of adopted the right kind of investigations. We hadn't put the resources in for too long and too long. It's taken too long before we brought those men to justice. And I apologized at the time. I think listening to the stories of the women at the time really kind of opened my eyes to what was happening, hidden in plain sight in a lot of our communities. I mean, that's the thing, isn't it? You know, many people who are working as slaves have been trafficked here right under our nose. You know, people can be using their services without realising. Nail bars, car washing, door-to-door handymen.

That's what makes this a very tricky issue, isn't it? That's right. So when I talk about having a priority, which is about preventing modern slavery and human trafficking, I would like to encourage everybody, you know, people who are listening to this programme to think about how we inadvertently kind of create the market. So if we, you know, are buying products or maybe services such as car washes or nail bars, you know, if they're very cheap, they might well be cheap because they're relying on the exploitation of another person. So how can we all become much more conscious consumers and ask those questions? And if something is a bit of a steal, a bit of a bargain, that

might be because somebody has been abused. So something to be mindful of, as well as this structural change that you said. And of course, you need law enforcement. You need coppers. Bobby's on the beat to do all of this. Do you think 20,000 more coppers or extra coppers, if I could put it like that, will happen if Boris Johnson wins a majority? Do you believe that? Of course, there's been dispute about whether there'll be more because it's the restock of what was there before. We've looked across all the manifestos and all the parties are committing to having more police officers.

And I think that is absolutely essential. I would have argued that in my old job and I would argue in my new job. I think in this new role, while, of course, some of those officers need to be in visible roles patrolling the streets, I would also argue that some need to be in the specialist teams that deal with modern slavery and human trafficking. We know that the forces that prosecute the most offenders often have those specialist teams. Investigators who understand the issues, these investigations are often very lengthy, three, four, five years. They will often have an international component. You've got to work with police forces and prosecutors in other countries. They will be complicated, complex, resource intensive. And I think on the whole,

that sort of work is best done by specialist teams. So it's also not just about more, it's about who gets deployed where? It's about more, but it's about the capabilities, the skills, the experience they have. You made headlines when you were in your previous role of talking about the fact that investigating hate crime risks distracting police from their core role of handling emergencies, solving violent crime, burglaries and neighbourhood policing.

Do you still have that concern? That is not what I said. The debate at the time was that, of course, hate crime needs to be recorded, investigated, and those responsible brought to justice. What campaigners were suggesting that where no crime was committed, where there was just a hate incident, that that too should be recorded. And my argument... So it was the incident as opposed to the crime. Correct, correct. That was some of the write-up at the time,

but it's very good to hear you say it in your words. We can never take account of how editors will make right headlines. Well, this is why we asked the question, so do carry on. So it was definitely about incidents. And my point was that the police service was under such pressure that core policing, the basic things that the public expect were not getting done, the things that you listed. And that I just felt we couldn't add to the long list of what we want the police to do, which was at that time recording incidents rather than crimes. And I presume that's, you know, your former colleagues still have that concern because they want to be getting on with those priorities, as you say. I think there's a concern with former colleagues just about the pressure on core policing.

Yes. And that the public expect a response. I mean, fantastic response last Friday to that ghastly event. You know, the police were there in four minutes. But often when they're less serious incidents, people are waiting a long time for police to respond. Missing the police force? Yes, but really enjoying the new challenge. Dame Sarah Thornton there, the new anti-slavery commissioner. We had a lot of you getting in touch after our interview with Jo Swinson, the leader of the Liberal Democrats, the latest in Women's Leaders interviews. Jackie on Twitter said, thank you for challenging the thinking.

This was in reference to our first question about Jo Swinson's appeal to women voters, where she brought up childcare. It's totally old hat to reduce women's lives down to being mothers. It's not progressive or modern. Frankly, it's medieval. Safia got in touch also on Twitter to say, Jo Swinson's talking about helping women with childcare. What about the waspy women?

Kathy Moss emailed us to say, what about supporting families to look after their children themselves? Why such a focus on childcare? Put more money into welfare to give families the chance to thrive in all circumstances. Thank you so much for all of your messages. That's just a flavour of them. On Weekend Woman's Hour with Jenny, you can hear the President of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, Professor Lesley Regan, who's calling for a bold approach to transform women's

health services. She tells us about her vision. You can also hear four leading women from the political parties debate the ongoing problem of child poverty in the UK. We hear from Helen Waitley from the Conservatives, Laura Pidcock from Labour, and Dr Sarah Wollaston of the Liberal Democrats and Deirdre Brock from the SNP. Also, how difficult is it to raise your children as multilingual when you're the only person from your background speaking that language?

We'll get into that and more. Do join us for Weekend Woman's Hour and thank you for listening. Here's a question. We'll get into that and more. Do join us for Weekend Woman's Hour. And thank you for listening. Here's a question. A man escapes from one of the world's most brutal dictatorships. He's risked everything to do it. But once he's free, he digs a hole and he tunnels straight back in again. Why?

Find out in Tunnel 29, a new 10-part podcast series from BBC Radio 4 with me, Helena Merriman. To subscribe, search for Intrigue Tunnel 29 on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.