Woman's Hour - Licoricia, Kate Nash, Devolution and Samantha Jones

Episode Date: February 10, 2022

Today the Prince of Wales will unveil a statue of Licoricia, a Medieval Jewish woman outside where she once lived on Jewry Street, Winchester. The statue is hoped to inspire women and provide education on the UK’s Jewish history. Emma is joined by Rebecca Abrams author of ‘Licoricia of Winchester: Power and Prejudice in Mediaeval England’, on why Licoricia’s story is so important.Brit-award winning singer-songwriter Kate Nash, known for her expressive and honest lyrics sung in a North London accent, is coming to venues again very soon. She's got a tour, a fifth album and even a musical coming out this year. You may have seen her in the series, GLOW on Netflix based on the Gorgeous Ladies of Wrestling from the 1980s and she's got a new single, 'Imperfect' out tomorrow along with a new video in the theme of 'Galantine's Day.' She joins Emma live from LA to talk all about releasing new music and learning how to wrestle.Boris Johnson has just made Samantha Jones the most powerful woman in No. 10. No, not the Sex and City character but a former nurse and NHS boss who has been hired as the Prime Minister's first 'Chief Operating Officer'. This is part of the reform of Downing Street he promised after Sue Gray's report on the so-called partygate scandal was released last week. In this new post, Samantha Jones will apparently examine how Number 10 is run and help set up the Office of the Prime Minister. Emma is joined by Rosa Prince, Editor of The House - which is Parliament's magazine - to find out more about her and the role.Last week’s Levelling Up white paper has promised a devolution deal to every part of England that wishes to have one by 2030. But what impact has devolution had on female political representation? We discuss with Jemima Olchawski, Chief Executive of the Fawcett Society and Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire, the only female metro mayor in England and Jackie Weaver, Chief Officer of the Cheshire Association of Local Councils.Sculpture of Licorcia by Ian Rank Broadley.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Let me ask you this. Do you believe in politics as a force for good and for change? Is it something you could imagine getting into? Have you done it at any level? While the Foreign Secretary Liz Truss is in Moscow telling her Russian counterpart to respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine, as Russia continues to deny that it has any plans to invade but has 100,000 troops on Ukraine's border, the Prime Minister is also travelling to Brussels and Warsaw in support of NATO allies,

and the Labour leader, Sir Keir Starmer, is expected to meet the NATO Secretary General in Brussels later. And yet at the same time, closer to home, the Metropolitan Police will email more than 50 people as part of its inquiry into lockdown parties at Downing Street and Whitehall. A questionnaire will be sent to those alleged to have been at those events on eight dates between May 2020 and April 2021. Boris Johnson and his wife Carrie are expected to be among the people emailed. Well, is it something you think of as something you want to get involved with? On one hand, you can hear what's going on on a global level, closer to home, whether it's the buses, the transport, whether it's peacekeeping and talks at a higher level with NATO allies. Is it something for you?

Have you dipped your toe in? Let me know. 84844 is the number you need to text me here at Woman's Hour. You can check for those network provider costs on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour or email me through the Woman's Hour website. A Mumsnet poll this week that I mentioned earlier in the week because I was talking to an MP, a relatively new MP, Kim Ledbetter, who is, of course, the sister of the Labour MP who was murdered, Jo Cox. We were talking about getting into politics and having your voice heard and how it actually is versus how you want it to be. Where are you with this? And I'm minded to mention

this Mumsnet poll again, because I brought it up with Kim. And of course, that does not mean, by all means, in in any way all women. It is those mums and it's only those mums who even participated. But the ones that did said the majority of them said they'd rather give birth again without drugs than get into politics. Just to put that into your mind. So and we also know when we look across the country, female participation in politics isn't where it should be. You could argue all participation isn't, but it's particularly pronounced with women. For instance, there's only one female Metro Mayor. They're a relatively new thing across the country.

Tracey Braben, former Labour MP and the Coronation Street star. That's who the only female Metro Mayor is. She'll be on the programme shortly. And I'll also be talking to Jackie Weaver. She of Zoom call parish council fame. Also to talk about how to sell local politics. So all that to come. But where are you with it? Also on today's programme, Brit Award winner singer songwriter Kate Nash is back, having learned to wrestle on TV. The story of an extraordinary medieval Jewish woman being unveiled today as a statue in Winchester and how you could find your long lost relatives hanging on the walls of the National Portrait Gallery. More details to come.

But first, keeping with politics, but with a particular appointment, Boris Johnson has just made Samantha Jones the most powerful woman in Number 10. No, not the Sex and the City character, but a former nurse and NHS boss who's been hired as the Prime Minister's first Chief Operating Officer. This is part of the reform of Downing Street that he promised after Sue Gray, the civil servant's report on so-called Partygate scandal was released. In this new post, Samantha Jones will apparently examine how Number 10 is run and help set up what's been called the Office of the Prime Minister. But who is she and how's it going to go, do we think? Let's talk to Rosa

Prince, editor of The House, which is Parliament's magazine, to find out a bit more. Rosa, good morning. Good morning, Emma. What do we know about Samantha Jones? We don't know that much, to be honest. When that name came out, as you say, there were lots of Twitter jokes about Samantha Jones from Sets in the City, but not a great deal of intel. So she is a former nurse. She worked at Great Ormond Street at the start of her career. And then apparently she found it really frustrating because she'd be at a bedside and the doctors would be talking away and no one would ask her opinion. So good for her. She decided to go into management and she took the exam. She became an NHS trust manager and she seemed to do really well.

She was a high flyer. She was awarded Chief Executive of the Year in 2014. And then she crossed over and went into the private sector. And she was working for an American company that ran one of London's biggest GP chains. And I'm presuming that's where she came to the attention of the government. And Boris Johnson appointed her as his advisor. And so since April, she's been helping him with things like social care and tackling those NHS waiting lists. And she's obviously impressed him because now she's been brought over to manage the whole of Downing Street.

The whole of Downing Street, because he's also got a chief of staff. How do these two roles interplay? So Downing Street is saying that she's going to be head of people. And I think that's probably something that's come about as a result of the Sue Gray inquiry, which, as you will remember, said that Downing Street is really a funny place where sort of chains of command can be blurred. It's where the prime minister lives. It's where he works. Is it a government department? Is it just set up to personally see to the prime minister? So I think those are all things that she's going to tackle. And she has also stressed in her bio, when she talks about running organisations, primarily health organisations, how important

it is to have the culture right at a place, not just structures, but also how the people feel about the way they work. And obviously, one thing we know about the parties at Downing Street is that that was a culture that perhaps a grip had been lost and that people weren't sort of really fully focused on how they presented themselves and how they felt about how they worked. So I think that's something she'll want to tackle too. So if she's a COO, Chief Operating Officer, which people will be more familiar with in the business world, is he the CEO, Boris Johnson? Good question. Good question. I think that's something she's going to have to work out. I mean, Downing Street, as I say, it's a strange place. You've been inside. It's, you know, there are private rooms and then there is sort of, it's a very old fashioned building and people tucked away in nooks and crannies.

So I think she'll want to investigate how how the structure should change, how it should be set up. Tony Blair, as long ago as that, he called for there to be a department for the prime minister. And finally, that is something that Boris Johnson says he wants to bring to fruition. So I think she's got a sort of clean slate there to really put down how everyone works. Now, it's only a six-month appointment, which is perhaps a bit of a surprise. So I wonder if she does a... Yeah, the appointment is on an interim basis.

So I guess if she does well, maybe she'll be asked to stay on. I don't know if that was from her side or his, that they wanted this kind of six-month break clause to see how it's going. Six months to sort out Downing Street. I mean, there will be those listening to this thinking this is all diversionary tactics. You know, it's one thing to say you're going to respond to a report,

but it's actually the content of the report that a lot of people want to hear a bit more about and get the fuller detail of. And this is just rearranging the deck chairs, not least also, I should mention, before her announcement, it was three men who were brought in to to replace his former top team. Andrew Griffiths, the head of the policy unit, Guido Harry, head of communications and Steve Barkley, the chief of staff. Do you think this is rearranging of the deck chairs or meaningful change? That's a really good question. So when Boris Johnson was responding to the Sue Gray report last week,

that was very much the charge put against him by the opposition. They were saying, oh, come on, this isn't responding to the meat and bones of the report at all, which was that you perhaps broke the law, that you certainly probably broke the lockdown rules, juggling the deck chairs. But that's something that Boris Johnson can say is tangible change? He can point to this and say, look, I'm doing this and therefore things will change. There was that memorable quote he gave in the Commons that day. He said, I get it and I'm going to sort this out. And this is his way of demonstrating whether or

not he's sorting it out. Now, one of the main audiences for all this is actually not so much you and I, not so much the electorate, but his own MPs, because as you know, he is facing a potential leadership challenge if enough of them send in letters saying they have no confidence in him. So his big test is to be able to prove that he's got a grip, he's in control, because he's had a really torrid few weeks and even months where he's not been in charge. So this is his way of trying to steady the ship, trying to say, I'm doing something, I'm taking action, this is going to be sorted out. So yes, it's window dressing, but it's window dressing with a purpose, which is to try to prove that he's a prime minister still in charge.

What is the letter tally at? Do we know yet? We don't know. There's lots of numbers flying around. I just thought we'd get from you, Rosa, as a journalist in the know. Well, do you know Sir Graham Brady, who is the head of the 1922 committee, who is the person that all the letters go into, he is actually the head of the chairman of the board of the House magazine, which I edit.

So every week we have a meeting with Sir Graham and every week we say, can you not give us a clue? You know, perhaps hold up a number of fingers. And no, even in private, he is not saying anything. I don't think anyone knows how many letters there are, apart from Sir Graham, other than that we do know that 11 MPs have come forward to say that they have put letters in, which you would think were 11 in the bag. But apparently sometimes people say they've put in letters and they haven't. So it really is a mystery. Well, I'm getting a lot of messages

while we're talking. And I thought while you were with us, I'd take the opportunity to ask you as well as a keen follower of politics for a long time. This has just come in about the idea of whether it's a good thing to get into, whether you'd want to do it and whether women in particular would like to. And there are messages saying people have rolled their sleeves up and got in, especially I'm seeing as a local level. But this one just came in from Anne, who's texted in to say, friends often say I should go into politics,

but with the current standards of behaviour in politics, it's an absolute turn off. We need a written constitution for starters. Would you ever go into politics, Rosa Prince? And what do you make of the idea of it as a career you know it's funny when I um was younger and I became interested in politics I felt myself that I didn't I was a bit kind of humble about it and I felt that I didn't really have the answers but I was not humble to the extent that I felt that I would like to criticize the people who felt that they did have the answers. So it seemed to me that political journalism was a better path for me. But as I've gone along, I just have so much respect and admiration for people who do put their head above the parapet,

particularly women, because women increasingly have a hard time and the abuse that they get on social media and in person is real and horrific. And I feel really awful for them. And I hate the idea that a bright young woman wouldn't want to go into it for those reasons. So I just take my hat off to anyone who does it. And I don't think I've quite got it in me. But I think it's a great job to have. And I really respect and admire those who do it. Rosa Prince, editor of the House, which is Parliament's magazine. Thank you for that, but also giving us an insight into what we do it. Rosa Prince, editor of The House, which is Parliament's magazine. Thank you for that, but also giving us an insight into what we do know.

Perhaps we'll find out more as she goes along in that six-month post about Samantha Jones, apparently now the most powerful woman in number 10, in a new role called Chief Operating Officer.

Well, how then to get women or more women into all levels of politics? Last week's levelling up white paper from the government has promised a devolution deal to every part of England that wishes to have one by 2030, but has devolution or the transfer of power

from central government to the regions been good for female political representation? Well, in recent decades, a new range of political positions have opened up from metro mayors, police and crime commissioners, local council leaders who sit on combined authority boards, but the candidates have been overwhelmingly male. You may also remember a photo of the Greater Manchester devolution deal,

I'm testing you now, being signed by 12 men in 2014. But what's changed? Let's talk now to Jemima Olhaski, Chief Executive of the Fawcett Society, Tracey Braben, Labour Metro Mayor for West Yorkshire, the only female Metro Mayor to date, elected in May 2021. She has powers over transport, to remind you, crime and planning in a region of 2.3 million, and Jackie Weaver, Chief Officer of the Cheshire Association of Local Councils. Welcome to you all. Jemima, I'm just going to start with you,

if I can. Take us through some of the numbers of women in some of these new roles and how female participation is looking. Sure. Well, when we look at these new combined authorities, each of those has a board and we've seen some improvement there. So 37% of the people sitting on those boards are now women. That's increased quite a lot from 21% just two years ago. So that's really great to see. But those are overseen and held together by Metro Mayors, this new role of which Tracey is one. And of those, we have nine Metro Mayors and Tracey is the only woman Metro Mayor,

the first to be elected since they were first elected in 2017 and no women of colour. So while we've seen this kind of transition of power, we need to think about who that power is kind of going to. And at the moment, a lot of those more senior roles are really dominated by men. Why do you think it's still like that? Is it that it's in its first wave? Of course, it's happening at a time where we hope there's greater equality and greater diversity. Well, I think there was a bit of a missed opportunity when this new kind of devolution was established to think about how we don't

replicate the kind of old systems that we know embed and favour male power. And so they weren't created with an eye to embedding equality. I mean, the pipeline for those Metro mayors is often having been a councillor or a member of parliament. So those are both roles that are dominated by men. And there's lots of challenges for women running for election at every stage. So whether that's getting selected by local electorates, often our political positions are the successful candidates are really selected by the local party because it's very unusual for a candidate to change parties in an area and our research shows that often those those still work on kind of really sexist assumptions so women are still asked questions about how they're going to balance the role with having children for instance. Once you have to go forward for selection the kind of process of fighting for election is really time resource intensive. Those are things that we know women tend to have less of. They've got more caring

responsibilities and often have less leisure time and less disposable income and less access to the kind of networks that are really important for accessing political power. And then, you know, as I think we've seen people kind of alluding to that Mumsnet research, you know, a lot about doing those roles is sort of unappealing and off-putting for women because of the levels of abuse women in public life face and because of the lack of infrastructure to support people to participate so for instance when we think about counsellors only a quarter of local authorities have a leave for women who want to take time off from being a counsellor for having a baby so once you're in there you're kind of in this macho culture where there isn't the support system

in place for you to really thrive and succeed. Thanks for that. Let me bring in Tracy. I suppose, why did you go for it? You were already an MP. Why did you think I want to do the Metro Mayor thing? Hello. Well, actually, it's because I came into politics late. And whilst you're in opposition, obviously, you work really hard for your community. Batley and Spen was my patch where I was born and raised. But you can't necessarily deliver on the ground. And when devolution came over the line for West Yorkshire, I'm a Yorkshire woman. The idea and the opportunity of being able to absolutely deliver with power and money was very compelling. And we were really privileged in a way that, Jemima was talking about the selection process. Actually, we had two women and a man of colour. So it was a good,

it was good spread. And it was an opportunity to really make a difference for the women of West Yorkshire. It's interesting what you're saying, because as you said that, Tracey, there's a message that's just come in saying politics in England is very different to politics in Wales and elsewhere. I despair at what's happening in Westminster. The characters it attracts, the culture it festers, but not all politics is the same. And I know we'll get onto this a little bit as well with Jackie Weaver. This message says, I work for the Welsh government. I'm very proud of what we're doing, making a difference, a genuine difference, this message says. We have some groundbreaking approaches, like the Wellbeing of Future Generations Act,

a new progressive curriculum for schools, integrated reform of all learning after school. We work together across parties and departments. It's not perfect, but it is really fulfilling and an inspiring place to work. Is it better being a Metro Mayor than being an MP, Tracey Brogan? Well, I don't want to disrespect my colleagues in Parliament, but I would say it is one of the best jobs in politics.

And I'm astounded that not more women want to do it because you can bring your own lived experience to the role as well. I was able to ask Alison Lowe, who is a woman of colour with incredible experience in police and crime, to be my deputy mayor. You can work to change the culture in massive organisations like the Combined Authority, 700 colleagues. You know, I can implement at speed swift changes around equality, diversity and inclusivity. It's an incredible role and I would encourage anybody that's listening to maybe think about it as we have greater devolution across the country. You sound a lot happier than when sometimes I interviewed you as an MP. You sound like you're a bit freer as well, if I could put it like that, because you are very aware that in some of those interviews that even you and I have had, you are subject to a party line. know getting away from that but um i'm also having to work cross-party it is about collaboration

cooperation um in order to get things done as always you know you have to work with with governments and um i am pleased that actually we're quite unique in our combined authority that we have opposition members on our combined authority so you you know you get that that opposite voice but it is an amazing role to represent where you grew up and to make changes at a large scale level. So being able to say from the gain share, which is the money that you get from devolution, that's the 38 million a year for 30 years,

that we could say that 40 million of that money, of the revenue would be focused on climate change. So, you know, we are tackling the biggest issues of our time with the power of money to deliver. So, you know, it's a really great role. Tracey, the ultimate question, I suppose, is what's best, MP, Metro Mayor or Coronation Street? Because you were in that as

well. That's a very difficult choice Emma and very hard to do but for each period of my life being an actor was the best job, being a member of Parliament was the best job. Political answer. Five fantastic years and now I'm using all of that experience to deliver for West Yorkshire. Surely it's got to be about having a drink in the Rover's return. Jackie Weaver, Chief Officer of the Cheshire Association of Local Councillors and she of, of course, Lockdown Zoom, Parish Council fame.

Good morning. Good morning. What role do you think local politics should play in people's lives if they're not connected to it? And why particularly do you think women should think about it? I know many women have and many women are.

We're getting those messages as well. But from your perspective, Jackie? I think for me, and my interest is only local councils, and by that I mean town and parish councils, it's the hyper-localism. It's the way in which you can get involved with local democracy, local government, but without having to be a political creature. Because I don't feel that's for everyone. That said, if you are a political creature,

and you want to sort of build up those networks that we were talking about earlier, this is a really good way to do it. And when I've been talking about this kind of hyper-localism, I'm trying to convey to people is that I feel there's something in politics at that level for everyone. Now, I was a councillor for four years, about 30 years ago. That's when it's changed an awful lot since then.

It was not for me. Why? Why was that? I guess I just didn't have the passion for my locality. It's as simple as that. And I think that to be a good counsellor, you know, as you've heard Tracy talking, with such energy and passion,

you need that. But at the same time, we also need people who, if you like, work the rule book, who facilitate the energy of people who have that. And for me, that was my role. And I guess even if neither of those are for you, I do feel so strongly that out in our communities, people have a, I would say as far as a duty, to witness what is happening in their name.

But I think people don't know, if I may, Jackie, I just was going to say, I definitely don't want to interrupt you because you are the chair of all chairs. But I think people, even the way I phrased it this morning, and for which I apologise if it does alienate anyone, even the word politics can make people think not to do with me. But they also perhaps don't know if they aren't party creatures, party political creatures, they might might think how do i get

into it so is there something you'd say as advice oh goodness yes i mean one of the things i've been trying so hard to do over the last literally last 12 months is really encourage people to go and find out more there is so much information and really accessible information but the bit that's missing is the link that makes you say actually I will go and look at the information and so and what I would have one of the real frustrations for me was when we lost the ability to hold virtual meetings because that really gave people an opportunity literally to witness what was being done in their name by their local town or parish

council and we were seeing that there was a I think it was a 20% increase in virtual attendance at council meetings and if we'd had that if we could continue with that I think we would really make an impact on the number of people that are getting involved because part of the problem is they don't really know what town and parish councils are. So they need to go and look that up, first of all, and then see how they can perhaps get involved. Jane's written in. Can I read you this one, Jackie, from Jane, which says, I was a councillor for eight years. Most residents are polite. There are quite a number who say they don't do politics or I don't vote or you're all the same.

I always found that astounding and depressing. Everything is political. How schools are run, the condition of the roads, how often your bins are collected, how decisions are made about these things is political. It's like people feel they can absolve themselves of any responsibility for engaging in democracy by just not thinking about it. And then it's everyone's fault. But there's we need to teach democratic imperatives in school. So people fully realise what's really at stake. I suspect you share some of the same frustrations as Jane. Oh absolutely and I think one of the difficulties particularly at our level is that people do equate what they see on the telly, PNQ, that kind of thing and they think that is replicated throughout the rest of the tiers of local government and occasionally I mean

we have a hundred thousand parish and town councillors. At some point, a couple of them are not going to get on well. As you know. As I know. But that is not the majority of them. The majority of them are people who come together because they can see something that they want to influence locally. Well, I just wanted to say, you know, there are other messages.

I don't want to give the wrong impression of people, you know, not being involved. Indeed, that message was from someone who was a councillor. There's another one here from Beth who says, I'm very happy I made the decision to go into politics a couple of years ago, despite the thought of having to juggle this with being a full time single parent. I'm a triple hatter at town, district and county councils. Big smile on your face. She's really gone for it. She has.

Jackie, just before I let you all go on this particular topic, you didn't open the Brits this year. I think we were speaking last year when you were involved at that level with Jack Whitehall. Did you miss out? Did you miss it? Well, I was on tent hooks just in case Adele couldn't go on.

Indeed. I bet you were thinking about that. Jackie Weaver, lovely to talk to you. Very good to also hear what it's like being the only female Metro Mayor, a bit from Tracy Braben there, the Labour Mayor for West Yorkshire

and Jemima Olhaski, Chief Executive of the Forces Society. Thank you very much to you indeed. More messages on this to which I will return very shortly. But you may remember my next guest from this. My fingertips are holding on to the cracks in our foundation and I know that I should let go but I can't. Yes, Brit Award winning singer-songwriter Kate Nash is back with some new songs

and having also just turned her hand to acting in the Netflix series Glow based on the gorgeous ladies of wrestling from the 1980s. Her new single Imperfect is going to be released tomorrow along with a new video in the theme of Galentine's Day, spinning Valentine's into a celebration of female friendship. I spoke to her earlier this morning, which was even earlier for her in LA, and I began by asking her where the new song came from. It came through some of my friends from Glow. Kimmy Gatewood, who was one of the beatdown biddies on the show, is also a big time director these days. And she was working with some of our

writers on Glow on the remake of The Babysitter babysitters club do you know that show about the 12 and 13 year old babysitters and they they asked me to re-record the theme song that sort of iconic like babysitters club theme song and then they asked if i could write a song for an episode on the show. And I ended up writing Imperfect and have just decided to release it now in February because it's really different to the sound of my record and my album. And while I'm kind of finishing up on that, I thought I'm just going to throw out this like

power pop moment that's really uplifting. Well, let's have a listen to it. Here's Kate Nash's performance of Imperfect for Woman's Hour. There's a girl in the mirror and she's not what you tell her She's a love that you'll never even see And she's made the decision that she doesn't have to fit in She's not perfect, she's just human like me. My skin is tough, but I am soft underneath.

Imperfect, but perfectly me. Lovely to hear that. Well, I then asked Kate, who or what was imperfect? Imperfect is, it's just kind of an anthem about how we see ourselves and our imperfections and how we like put a lot of pressure on ourselves to be perfect I think more than ever really and whether you're you know whatever age you are as a woman there's so much pressure and um it's about just kind of realizing that imperfections make us unique and you're not you can't be perfect because

you're human yesterday on the program I've got to share this with you we were talking I don't know if you've seen it about uh your fellow musician Anne-Marie at the Brits falling down the stairs right at the beginning I did see that and then she got straight back up on her feet and we were all sharing uh I was sharing the listeners were sharing you know those moments where you've had a public bit of embarrassment and how you styled it out and, you know, imperfection in some ways. The internet in some ways has made it worse, but in other ways, actually so many people came out to support her and make jokes and it became a meme really quickly and she's over it.

Have you had a moment of imperfection or a public embarrassment? A hundred million times in my career definitely I remember once actually falling over on stage in a festival somewhere in Europe and my lighting engineer she like caught it right as I was falling and like filled the stage of smoke so it kind of hid me falling down and then I was like clambering back up and I was like yes thank you, Paula. I've fallen over so many times. Well, that sounds like quite a Kate Bush moment coming out of the smoke.

It was great. It was like I just sort of like disappeared into the smoke and then clambered back up. I've had lots of my musicians on stage fall off stage. I think it's like, as well, don't you think since Jennifer Lawrence fell at the Oscars and that was such an iconic moment I think falling over is fine it's great now it's like a it's quite a cute thing to happen yeah if maybe just you know by a bit more design sometimes the way it shocks people I suppose just keeping with the Brits for a moment uh you know someone who's spoken out a lot about women's role in the music industry, it's the first genderless award for the overall artist of the year.

Adele took it. And when she took it, she said, I understand why the name of this award has changed, but I really love being a woman and being a female artist. I'm really proud of us. What do you make of that and that decision by the Brits? I think it's interesting because when I won a Brit award in 2008 I said that female is not a genre it's almost like you're told that you're limited by being a woman

and it becomes like female isn't a genre you know but the same I feel the same sentiments as Adele like I was really proud to win best female I feel proud to be a female musician but I think that the issue is for a lot of women is like you're put in this box that and you're not just a musician you're a female musician you know you're great for a girl or like I shouldn't walk into a record shop and see female as a genre which I have seen many times I shouldn't walk into like a shop and see magazines listed for men and there'd be like music magazines in that section it's a step in trying to uh recognize a like the changes that need to be made and be like there's a lot of like incredible like moving

forward that I think that people have done especially in the last couple of years of of um having more space to like talk about gender and and what it means to different people like I completely agree with Adele like it's so weird I think like as a woman you're constantly like I'm really proud to be a woman but then I'm also like but stop defining me for just you know what I mean like don't that doesn't have to be like a bracket that comes with everything I do it's interesting though what you say about being put in a box as a woman and how you can be you want to be proud of being a woman but not necessarily curtailed by it in some way. And I mean, just talking about the fact, you mentioned Glow there,

the TV show that I hugely enjoyed about wrestling, having been a fan of wrestling when I was younger. I mean, the sort of WWE. Oh, were you? I could. Yeah, all of that. Bret the Hitman Hart, those characters, you know, reign big in my mind. So I was definitely going to be tuning into GLOW.

You going into GLOW, some people may not have realised Kate Nash was in GLOW, the musician, the singer, being an actor. But that's actually where you started with your creativity. You wanted to be an actor. I went to the Brit school and studied theatre at the Brit school. And I was always, like, writing songs and I played piano from a young age. But I think actually doing theatre really helped me find my songwriting voice. And I intended to go to drama school or university to study theatre.

And I just got rejected from everywhere. And it was during the MySpace era and I was on MySpace and I kind of you know was working in Nando's and watched all my friends go off to drama school and university and I felt like I want to do something creative and uh music felt like this acting felt like you have to get people's permission to do it. You know, it's so difficult to practice being an actor on your own. I mean, there are ways to do that, but to be part of something, you have to be accepted or get a job or get cast. You have to be cast, yes.

Yeah. And as a musician, you can go down to your local pub and book a show, most likely, or find a pub that will take you. And that's kind of what I felt I could do. And I, you know recording and um and taking my cds down to like my local pub and that's how I started playing shows but yeah it was it was really incredible to then sort of go back to acting through music and I did a pilot actually with Jenji Cohen and Gus Van Sant in 2015 and Eddie Izzard was also in and karen gillen it was a really amazing cast um set in the 1800s about the sort of salem witch trials and that didn't get picked up but i got an audition

for glow basically through having been cast in that because the casting director had auditioned me for the you know and how how did you find you know getting into a leotard getting in a wrestling ring with a load of women oh my god it's like the best fun of my life so honestly the best way you could ever get over any kind of heartache or like trauma I mean you know therapy aside I think that um a lot of the stuff that had happened to me in the music industry really hurt me and affected my confidence. Just to catch our listeners up there, you're talking about the fact that you were in a situation where I suppose you got famous and very successful, very young. And then it didn't work out with your label. And then you've been trying to reinvent yourself and get your own tunes out there, I suppose, and be in charge of that since.

And yeah, just, you know, things that have happened along the way music industry is like not the it's a very unregulated business and so a lot most people learn the hard way you know about that and I think it affects a lot of people's confidence but yeah stepping into a wrestling room with Chavo Guerrero and uh 14 female comedians and learning how to use your body in this really powerful way was very healing and really fun and just kind of liberating. Yes well it brought great joy to my life I enjoyed watching you do it with with your colleagues there and a lot of people were enjoying it but sadly it was to be no more because at the beginning of the pandemic I think you found out pretty much the same time as as those who were enjoying the show or very similar time that it was it was not going to be renewed for the next series. I know it's one of those Covid

things that just happened so we were shooting in March and we I think we were two episodes in we had all the stages built all the costumes costumes, all the scripts written. We'd started filming and then, yeah, Netflix just decided not to pick us up and let us go. So I think that's a bit rubbish. Well, of course, and I'm sure that was a sentiment shared by your colleagues. But then how did you find lockdown? You know, as a creative, some people felt it gave them some space. But I suppose with that news right at the beginning of it and that having been such an important part of you feeling I suppose a bit better about what you were doing was that was that difficult to come back from the pandemic has been really difficult you know for everybody for so many different reasons and

it's it's been this moment of really being aware of what you do have and being so grateful for everything that we do have and and then also like greatly missing things like I miss my family a lot being out here in LA and just worry for the whole world and then like of course work you know because also touring is something that I do really regularly I used to do really regularly and uh I think more so than anything it was the fear of oh god a live show is going to be possible again you know in those moments in the pandemic where it felt like is this forever like are we never going to be able to be doing these things again and and live music is just so important to me and uh I have a tour actually in May and I'm going to some German dates and Amsterdam and

dates in the UK and I just can't wait to be able to do that again because it's just there's no other feeling you know make sure you've got the smoke machine ready yeah I'll definitely have the smoke machine ready on site that's the best tip from from you if anyone's thinking about their their set and they're getting ready to do a performance you need a smoke machine all those falls and somebody to to cover you very well with it. Exactly. You've also got a musical, or you're working on a musical. I do, yeah. I'm working on a musical with Andy Blankenbuehler,

and it's been in the works for about 11 years, actually. We should say he's known, Tony Award winner, known for Hamilton, In the Heights, Cats. Yeah, he got a little bit busy with Hamilton. And so we're going to be at the MCC Theatre in New York finally in October through to December. So that's exciting. And I did all the music for that and I'm starring in it as well.

So it's quite new and nerve-wracking, but exciting. Have you worked any wrestling moves into that? Oh, definitely. It's going to be like secret wrestling moves. I'll just be like front bumping and suplexes if I can get them in. You know what? I really think we need to see more of that because when I was a child in the playground and somebody told me wrestling wasn't real,

sorry if anyone's listening. Oh God, don't say that. There's a huge bit of performance. Obviously there's stunts. There's lots of physicality going on, but I genuinely thought they were really, you hurting each other fighting yes we you know it's really a nuanced thing because the physicality and the stunt work and the moves are just like there is no faking that you know that is that is an athlete and then it's like you train you like we're trained how to do things

safely but it doesn't not hurt you can't be thrown onto a mat and that's like made of woods with springs and not like feel some pain and get bruises so it's like saying it's fake is is sort of not the right like no I've probably said it wrong I'm sorry no and I've got to stand up for the wrestling community you know what I mean but um it's just a really interesting sport it's totally a sport you know those are like incredible athletes I didn't understand wrestling until I started doing it and and even the culture I didn't really understand but um the wrestling fans are incredible and they're really welcoming as well and uh you know you don't get any of that you know how in like there's that stereotype of a record shop and if you go in and you don't know cool records you're kind of shunned like in

wrestling if you go to wrestling matches people are really happy that there's in my experience like really happy that there's new fans and they're quite welcoming to like people that want to join the world and there's loads of really cool underground um wrestling clubs and stuff like that but there's a really cool one in Bethnal Green that's like all-female wrestling club. I'm going to look that up. Thank you. Pro-Eve wrestling, you have to go to one of their shows.

It's like sweat, blood, drama, people climbing down from the ceiling. I mean, it's just incredible. I'm definitely going to check that out. And to clarify, because I know we'll have wrestling fans listening, I thought when I saw these two, whoever they were, come together that one genuinely was then in hospital. And maybe they would have been from the stump. But you know, the drama of what they were saying in their scripts, I believed it entirely. So that's what I mean. It was such a good performance it got me and I really enjoyed Glow. Kate, it's lovely to talk to you, hear your voice and hear your singing voice as well. All the best with everything.

Thank you so much for having me. The singer Kate Nash there having performed her single Imperfect, which is out tomorrow, a special recording just for you and for all of us. Well, today the Prince of Wales, along with the Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mervis, will unveil a statue of Licoricia, an extraordinary medieval Jewish woman close to where she once lived on Jewry Street in Winchester. The statue is the culmination of a five-year campaign, a crowdfunding campaign, an awareness campaign, really, to create a monument that is hoped will inspire women and promote tolerance and understanding in our society. And yet today, new figures from a Jewish security charity, the Community Security Trust, show reports of anti-Semitic incidents reached a record high in the UK last year,

rising a third from the year before in 2020. Rebecca Abrams is the author of the book Licoricia of Winchester, Power and Prejudice in Medieval England. And I spoke to her about why Licoricia's story is so important. She was phenomenally important in her own right. She rose from really complete obscurity. We don't know anything about her parentage or her childhood, to become one of the most successful business women, well, business people in medieval England. She was the most important businesspeople in medieval England. She was the most important

Jewish woman in medieval Europe. She was a tremendously successful financier. She had business interests extending over the whole of the southeast of England. She had a property portfolio, and she achieved a lot of this through her own independent work as a moneylender. What century are we talking about? Licorice lived in the 13th century in England. She lived most of her life in Winchester, although she also spent several years living in Oxford. She was a wife, she was a mother, she was married twice, she had widowed twice, she had five children. And she combined this with this astonishing professional life as a financier, as a money lender. So she was really unusual in that she was a woman in a rigidly patriarchal society.

She was a Jewish woman in an overwhelmingly Christian society, which was not particularly friendly towards Jews, to put it mildly. And she had plenty of domestic commitments as well, but absolutely rose to the top of the game. How did she do that? I'm minded to note that you're saying she had this property portfolio, she had this money, she had this business. How was it hers when women had so little and had no discernible rights outside of the home? Well, so the position for Jewish women was slightly different in the Middle Ages than it was for Christian women. So they could own property, they could work, they did work in a whole range of trades. And then when it came to financial services, they were also able to

make loans, call in interest, they were able to function as independent financiers. And do we know how she got her original money? Well, it's a really good question. I mean, it's a bit of a mystery how Licorice did as well as she did. What we know about her is that she was probably born at the very beginning of the 13th century or the end of the 12th century. She was married probably about between 13 and 15 years of age, so in about 12, 15. We know that by 12, 25, she probably already

had three or four children. And we know that by 12, 34, her first husband had died. She's described in the records as a widow. We also know that he was arrested nine years before that and accused of murder and found guilty of murder, even though there was no evidence for it. So it's very likely that he was executed at some point where she had these very young children. And then what happens in 1234, when she was probably in her early 30s, she appears in the official financial records for the first time in a dispute about interest due on a loan that she'd made to a nobleman for £10. Now £10 in 1234 was a huge sum of money. It was enough to buy a brand new fully fitted ship. So she already was operating at quite a high level

by the time she was in her early 30s. Now the reason the death of her first husband is significant is because when he was accused of murder and found guilty, all his chattels would have been confiscated. So it's very unlikely that she launched herself with money that came from her first husband. Either she was just very astute, or she was helped out locally, or she maybe had a small pot from her ketubah, her marriage contract. We don't really know. But she was then acting independently as a businesswoman throughout her 30s into her 40s. And then in the early 1240s, she meets this extraordinarily important man called David of Oxford. And he is one of the top six financiers in the country. And either they fall in love or they just decide they'd make a really good match for other reasons. But in any case, they fight this very difficult divorce

scam because he's already married. He does indeed eventually get permission to divorce his first wife, and then he and Lickett Richard marry. And by combining their forces, she then becomes, you know, in a completely different league. She's really gone right to the top of the scale. And then he dies two years later. And the king at that point is entitled to take everything that belongs to the person who's died unless their heirs can pay a portion of it, a third of it. And the trouble is, is that David is so immensely wealthy that to pay that amount of money is huge. And the king, to make sure Licoricia doesn't sort of run away or hide any of the assets or do anything else that people might have been inclined to do he locks her up in the Tower of London for eight months and she has a one-year-old son at this point so she's sitting in the Tower of London for eight months and what I imagine is happening during that time is she is engaged in serious negotiations with the king

about how much she should pay in order to get back David's assets. And she walks out of there nine months later with a tremendous deal, astonishing deal, where she doesn't have to pay taxes for the rest of her life. And she does have to pay a lump sum and it's a vast lump sum. And a lot of it goes towards building the shrine to Edward the Confessor in Westminster Abbey. But she's a free woman and she's a very, very, very well endowed woman at this point. So then she carries on working as a businesswoman until her death in her 70s. My goodness. And she, because it's been written up that she bankrolled the king, bankrolled Westminster Abbey. What do we know about that?

Well, the Jews in 13th century England were really the magic money tree for the royal coffers. So anytime the king or one of his court wanted to fund a major expedition or a military campaign or a crusade, or they wanted to build a cathedral, or they wanted to renovate the left wing of their castle, they went to the Jews and they taxed them incredibly heavily. So although the Jews were a tiny proportion, tiny proportion of total population, they were contributing in taxes way over their numbers. But with Licoricia herself, then just to stay with her story, I understand that's the wider context. And it's important to say, what was her contribution, for instance, to Westminster Abbey? Because I think the idea that a woman helped pay for that is something to think about.

She seems to have had very good relations with the king. But what she negotiated was that she would pay him a lump sum of 5,000 marks. Now, to put that into perspective, 100 marks was about £50,000. So we're talking millions here. And of that, 4,000 was going to go directly to fund this shrine to Edward the Confessor that Henry III was obsessed with. So this was a massive, massive contribution to his pet project. But it wasn't a one-off. I mean, we know that many of the great Norman buildings, the monasteries, the cathedrals were built with Jewish money. But Licorice's own contribution to these projects was enormous. Now, I mean, never mind a statue, this woman should have a movie.

This is, you know, I didn't even know about the imprisonment part. And that's just almost a small part of it in terms of the pattern of her life and how it played out. And you say she was in her 70s when she died. She was in her 70s when she died. and she was actually murdered. She was found one spring morning in 1277 by her daughter, Belia, who came to her house and found her mother stabbed to death by a blow with a knife to the heart, it says in the report. So she was stabbed straight on at close range, along with her maid, her Christian maid, Alice Bicton,

who'd also been murdered. And it was never discovered who'd done it. So her sons immediately called for a trial, for an inquiry. And on the first day of the trial, not one of the jurors turned up. They were all drawn from local people and they were a key part of the trial. Not one of them turned up and the sheriff had to go and round them up and say, you've got to come for this trial. And no one wanted to be found anywhere near Licorice's murder.

That's the message. And no one was ever found guilty of her murder. And no motive was ever really found. But it was probably the fact that her house in Winchester probably was a storehouse for quite a lot of, you know, belongings and jewellery, maybe plate, perhaps cash, furs, other kinds of valuable goods, like a small local bank, you know.

So it's possible that she was burgled by somebody wanting to cash in. You're going to be at the statue unveiling. Why now and what do you think it means to have this statue? Well, I think Licorice is really important for two particular reasons. She's a tremendous inspiration. You know, she's an astonishing figure. She must have had nerves of steel. She was brave. She was fearless. She achieved extraordinary things 800 years ago. So if she can do it, there's really nothing to stop any of us now. I mean, she's a fantastic inspiration to women about what you can achieve against incredible odds. But she's also a really important reminder

of the poison of antisemitism. And there's a very, very important message from Licorice, which I've tried to bring out in my book, which is that we tend to think of antisemitism as something that happens in England. We tend to think of antisemitism as something that really happens elsewhere. You know, I mean, the Nazis and the Germans

and the Austrians and the Hungarians or whatever, but it's not something that really happens elsewhere. You know, I mean, the Nazis and the Germans and the Austrians and the Hungarians or whatever, but not something that we own. And what Licorice's story shows and reminds us is that anti-Semitism, as it played out in Europe over hundreds of years, you know, not just culminating in the Holocaust, but finding its worst expression there, you know, that anti-Semitism had its roots in 13th century England. A lot of the most pernicious, most dangerous negative stereotypes and caricatures, the myths that led to the deaths of hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Jews across in all sorts of

countries across the centuries, emanated from Britain. They were forged in Britain. So to give you a specific example, we've talked a lot about Licorice as a moneylender, and she was indeed a moneylender. But the myth that all Jews were moneylenders and the association with Jews and money and Jews and wealth is actually completely untrue. So the majority of Jews in medieval England were not moneylenders, and the majority of moneylenders were not Jews. Only a very small number of Jews were moneylenders. And yet I am concerned by our conversation today fueling that myth. Indeed. And the statue fueling that myth, as in how concerned are you that effectively you

can call her a financier, you can call her a moneylender, but she was Jewish and a moneylender. And even though what you've just said is in the context of this conversation, just what you said earlier, Jews were the magic money tree for the royals. They were viewed as the magic money tree. But even Jews and money being put together like that, and the fact there's now going to be a statue of a Jewish, albeit female, financier in Winchester. On balance, do you think that's going to be worth it? And do you worry about it being weaponised? Well, I think it's a really interesting and important question because, yes, there is a risk that that will confirm the stereotype,

it will reinforce the stereotype, exactly the stereotype that it's keen to break. But I think, I hope, I think it's a brave choice by the Licorice of Winchester Appeal, who've raised the money for the statue and the whole projects that they're involved with. This is part of a wider educational programme to really actually challenge these stereotypes. So if it starts a conversation in which this can be discussed, because one of the problems with myths and stereotypes

is they're very difficult to bust open. So in a way, it's quite, I think it's a very brave and bold choice to choose a Jewish moneylender, not to back away from that, because yes, Jews were moneylenders, and yes, the English economy in the 13th century completely relied on them, but they themselves were a product of that economy. That wasn't what they were all doing. So I think it's an opportunity to have exactly that conversation and say,

let's look at this idea, this association of Jews and money. Let's break it open. Let's reality test it. Because we know there are no magic money trees. Not in the 13th century. Not now. Indeed. Well, that was Rebecca Abrams, author of Licorice of Winchester, Power and Prejudice in Medieval England. And of course, that's referring back to, if you missed right at the beginning of the item there, the fact that today the Prince of Wales, along with Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mervis, will unveil a

statue of Licorice, this extraordinary medieval Jewish woman in Winchester. You may be nearby, you may go and have a look, you may look in the future. Thank you so much for so many of your messages that have been coming in throughout the programme. Linked to what I asked you right at the start, as I often do, and you really don't disappoint, about politics and whether it's something you believe in, especially as I spoke to the only female Metro Mayor of all the Metro Mayors, there's only one woman. And we look across, away from Westminster, how politics works out. Speaking, of course, to also Jackie Weaver, who's very passionate about local politics on the absolute most local level. Jane says, listening to this discussion, that's me about local politics.

Do it, women out there. We need a louder voice in the room. She's saying she only thinks there's around 23 of around 87 on Cornwall Council, women in politics. Someone's saying, I agree with what Jackie Weaver was saying. It's very true. If you missed that, catch back up on BBC Sounds. An anonymous message here on email.

I work in politics as a staffer for an MP. The culture and standards recently have definitely gone downhill. The attitudes of many male workers in Parliament is upsetting. However, I always get through by telling myself if I didn't do this, then someone else with worse attitudes would get into this role. If anyone is worried about getting into politics, just remember you can use it to make not just policy, but the political culture itself a better place. A very wise message there indeed. I'm passionate about democracy, community and belonging,

but I would never get involved in politics, having seen how local politics works. Very toxic, childish, full of ego, says Catherine. I do community projects, but I try and stay away from politics after a few incidents. I see this quite often, especially with women. And it's such a shame for democracy. It is too partisan and lots of gameplay. Someone from the local level saying away from Westminster, that's how Catherine has found it. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain

from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.