Woman's Hour - Life and work of photographer Tish Murtha, Sitcom Such Brave Girls, Finding your dress shape

Episode Date: November 17, 2023

Brave Girls is a new sitcom following a dysfunctional family made up of sisters Josie and Billie and their mum Deb. It’s a fictional show exploring trauma but it's a comedy in every sense of the word. Ahead of its release on BBC Three and iPlayer next Wednesday, Anita Rani is joined by Kat Sadler, who plays Josie, and by her real life AND fictional sister Lizzie Davidson, who plays Billie. Just over a year ago, on 28th October, 2022, we did a nursery and childcare special programme, looking at whether the system needs an overhaul. Early this year, the government announced plans to extend the government's existing offer of 30 hours free childcare to working parents of children aged 9-months to two-years-old in England. Beginning in April 2024, funding will be rolled out in stages. Prior to this, only working parents of three and four-year-olds were entitled to the free 30 hours. Now, new BBC News analysis estimates that demand for places at nurseries and childminders is likely to rise by about 15% - equivalent to more than 100,000 additional children in full-time care. Anita dicusses the issues with Neil Leitch, Chief Executive of the Early Years Alliance. Tish Murtha is a celebrated photographer whose images of working-class life in North East England can be found in the National Portrait Gallery and Tate Britain. But in her lifetime, Murtha struggled to find work of any kind. Now her daughter, Ella, has made a film about Murtha’s life and work. Ella talks to Anita, along with Jen Corcoran, who produced the documentary.Are you an apple? A pear? An hourglass? Or even an inverted triangle? For years women have been told to dress for their shape. But our shape doesn’t stay the same over the course of our lifetime. So, how helpful are these shapes? Anita discusses with Anna Berkeley, stylist and founder of the body mapping app, Think Shape, who believes we should actually be more interested in our proportions, and Shakaila Forbes-Bell, Fashion Psychologist and author of Big Dress Energy.Presented by Anita Rani Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Tish Murtha, a name you probably don't recognise. She was a photographer who documented the working class community in the North East that she grew up in and her photographs are so evocative. They take you right back to that time and tell us so much about the place and the people. You'll be hearing all about Tish because her daughter Ella has made a documentary about her late mother. And when you get a minute, do search for her work online. The photographs are absolutely stunning if you

don't already know her work. Well, this morning, I'd like to hear from you about that special photo in your collection that tells you something about your family and your history, that takes you back to a time and a place. I love looking at old photos of my family from before I was born because they document the Indian community in 70s Britain, back-to-back terrace houses, saris and faux fur coats in that freezing cold Bradford weather. So what's the evocative photo that takes you to another place and tells you something about who you are?

Taken maybe on a special occasion or simply a candid shot on an average day. What's the photo that speaks volumes to you? Get in touch, tell me all about it. The text number is 84844. You can email me via the website or you can drop me a WhatsApp or a voice note using 03700 100 444. You can email me via the website or you can drop me a WhatsApp or a voice note using 03700 100 444. And if you're very clever, you might even be able to send me the picture. Also, our social media is at BBC Woman's Hour. Also on the programme, Kat Sadler and Lizzie

Davidson, sisters who are also starring together in a new sitcom as sisters. And the sitcom's called Such Brave Girls. It's normalising dysfunction, laughing in the face of trauma. It's frank, dark and utterly brilliant and I can't wait to speak to them. And how do you feel about the way you look or rather your body to be more specific? Do you look in the mirror and like what you see? How do you feel when you put your clothes on? Fabulous or frustrated that nothing seems to work well i may be able to help you out today or rather a couple of experts coming on the program might be able to help you out that text number once again if you'd like to get in touch with me and tell me

about that evocative photo that tells you something about your history or indeed anything you hear on the program we always like to hear your thoughts and opinions. It's 84844. But first, just over a year ago, on the 28th of October, we did a nursery and childcare special programme looking at whether the system of early years provision was working for parents and providers. Early this year, the government announced plans to extend the existing offer of 30 hours free childcare to working parents of children aged nine months to two years old in England. Beginning in April next year, funding will be rolled out in stages. Prior to this, only working parents of three and four-year-olds were entitled to the free

30 hours. Well now, new BBC news analysis estimates that demand for places at nurseries and childminders is likely to rise by 15%, equivalent to more than 100,000 additional children in full-time childcare. Well, Neil Leitch is CEO of the Early Years Alliance, and he joins me now to discuss these new figures and the implications of the government's latest plan. Neil, welcome to Woman's Hour. So what do you make of them, these new figures? 100,000 more children who will need places an increase by 15 well i have to say on the surface of course for parents it sounds like great news and it's long overdue news but the harsh reality is that we will struggle to deliver these places and i think

parents will be frankly knocking on the doors of child minders nurseries and preschools and they will be given very very bad news it's quite interesting that literally i think in the last hour ofsted who registered a number of providers in the country have just released figures showing that another 3320 providers have basically come off the register, have closed their doors. And in fact, places are down by 17,800 over the past 12 months. So on the surface, great rhetoric, great headline. In practice, actually, it is a bit of a disaster at this point in time.

Okay, well, let's get into this. Because as you said, you started by saying, you know, on the surface, this is great news. And there will be lots of young mums, pregnant women listening who are thinking this is good for me. And then all of a sudden they've heard you, Neil, and now they might be feeling a little bit disappointed again. So in the feature, the BBC feature, there's a case study of Jasmine Johnson who rang her local nursery at 20 weeks pregnant to arrange a place for her baby. And she was told it was full until 2025. Her baby's going to be almost two years old before a place becomes available. I mean, that's the point.

I mean, we are struggling at the moment, as you alluded to in your opening, that we deliver 30 hours for three and four year olds and we're struggling to deliver that I mean we have a recruitment and retention crisis that we've never witnessed before regrettably we have educators leaving in their droves so I do wonder how is it we're going to be able to cope with more and more children coming into early year settings there just isn't the infrastructure to cope with it. And there is nothing beyond the announcement that says that things will drastically change. I mean, people are leaving, dare I say, because they're exhausted, they're overworked, they're underpaid.

Nothing in the proposal changes that. It basically just puts a superficial offer out to parents. So yeah, it's a disaster looming, frankly. So let's get into how nurseries actually work at present. Can you describe the funding model? Well, the funding model, I have to say, is atrocious. I mean, we, as well as representing 14,000 nurseries, preschools and child minors in England. We also operate 42 settings ourselves, but exclusively in areas of deprivation. And it's interesting to note that this time four years ago, we operated 132. So we've closed 90 of those settings. We're a not-for-profit organisation. So if it breaks even, frankly, this is about as good as it gets.

And whilst government may argue that they pay enough money to the sector, let me just tell you that back in December of 2018, when we were tired of hearing the same old rhetoric about the funding levels being adequate, we said to government, if you think that you pay enough money, show us your computation, show us your figures. You won't be surprised to hear they told us to go away. And it took us two and a half years under a freedom of information request. And finally, the Information Commissioner's Office ruling in our favour saying it's not unreasonable. Give the Earliest Alliance that information. And when we got it, it said in their own words that to adequately fund these entitlements would require an additional two billion pounds.

That is not affordable. They then went on to say that by 2021, they would have to pay the sector an hourly rate of £7.49 for every three and four year olds. What they paid in that year was £4.89. So, you know, if that doesn't tell you that there is a massive shortfall, if that doesn't tell you, that's why we've had record closures. I'm not sure what else I can say, to be honest. Well, we've had a statement from the government's Department for Education spokesperson said, we're delivering the single biggest investment in childcare in England's history, providing 30 hours a week for working parents from nine months old up to when they start school, all backed by £8 billion a year once fully rolled out. Our increased offer

will be rolled out in stages ahead of September 2025 to give childminders and nurseries time to prepare for the changes, ensuring there are enough places ready to meet demand. We are already investing hundreds of millions of pounds to increase hourly funding rates. We'll shortly be allocating £100 million in capital funding for more early years and wraparound places and spaces. And we'll be launching a nationwide recruitment campaign in the new year. And meanwhile, 3,320 providers in the last 12 months have closed their doors. Rhetoric is cheap, I'm afraid.

So what would you like from the government to make this workable? A little bit of honesty. You know, I think it's unhelpful trotting out, frankly, lines that you've just read, for example. A little bit of honesty would be fine. A little bit of engagement. Isn't it interesting that they make this biggest investment ever, as they've alluded to, and not a word of consultation with the sector? We represent, as I said, 14,000 members.

We got to hear about this 10 minutes before the Chancellor stood up in Parliament and made the announcement. That's not engagement. You wouldn't do that if you were a manufacturer about to launch your biggest investment, your biggest project, and yet you've never spoke to your production people. You would never dream of doing it. But it's fine for government to do it. So I'm afraid words are cheap,

but we need some honesty, someone with a backbone. I would suggest that we need a dedicated early years minister, basically, on the cabinet, someone who actually understands the value of educating and caring for young children. In the meantime, it's women who want to get back into work who are having to suffer because they can't find anywhere

to look after their children. So just how difficult is it for parents to find childcare-funded places at present? It is difficult and it's going to be, I would suggest, it's going to get even tougher. I mean, you know, again, the point that you made about meanwhile, it's women that suffer. It's interesting that the only table that we talk of all OECD countries is the one where the percentage of a woman's salary is spent on early years care and education. That is wholly unreasonable.

But the reason for it is because we invest a fraction, a fraction of what other countries do in terms of their early year systems. And we seem to treat, dare I say, the early years. It's not part of the education system. Our educators are treated as glorified babysitters. So until that changes, until government starts to wake up and see the value, the importance of educating our youngest children, making them fantastic citizens, giving us a chance of still being on this planet, dare I say, in 200 years' time, then I don't think that anything in the early years sector will change. It just needs investment and it needs, I guess, attention, frankly. So what advice would you give to parents?

What advice would you give to people listening to the programme now? Well, I think most providers would say register as soon as you possibly can. But beyond that, I would suggest that they lobby, dare I say, their local MPs. They lobby government because this is unreasonable and this is unfair. It's become incredibly topical. I mean, obviously, early years, you said earlier that, you know,

Woman's Hour featured it just a little while ago. It's becoming incredibly topical because it is a disaster. And I would suggest that parents need to talk to their local MPs, local communities, and ensure that they understand that this is a massive challenge, not just for children, but it's a massive challenge for parents. So shout, I guess, is what I would say alongside registering. OK, Neil, thank you very much for speaking to me. That's Neil Leach, the CEO of the Early Years Alliance there. Your thoughts on this? 84844 is the number to text. Are you somebody who's going through this? Is this something that resonates with you? Is this something you remember from when you were bringing up your own children 20 years ago? Whatever your thoughts on this, we'd love to

hear from you this morning. Now, Such Brave Girls is a new sitcom following a dysfunctional family made up of sisters Josie and Billy and their mum Deb. All three of them have self-esteem tied up exclusively to people who couldn't care less about them. It's a fictional show exploring trauma and difficult subject matters that are deeply personal to its creator and my guest Kat Sadler. But it's a sitcom in every sense of the word and will make you laugh out loud, even in the most tragic of circumstances. Well, ahead of its release on BBC Three and iPlayer next Wednesday,

I'm delighted to say I'm joined by Kat, who plays Josie, and by her real-life and fictional sister, Lizzie Davidson, who plays Billy. Welcome, both of you. Oh, my God, thank you. It's so amazing to be here. We can't believe it. Oh, my God, thank you. It's amazing to be here. We can't believe it.

Oh, this is good. Enthusiasm, we like it. First TV show, Kat, congratulations. Thank you. Where did the idea come from? How did all of this begin? And also, how brilliant to get this over the line, because I've never seen anything like it.

Congratulations, first of all. We're still in shock. We think they might just tell us that it's not happening. It's pulled the night before. We can make it to wednesday then we'll be clear um well it kind of came about from like i've always been um i've been a joke writer by trade like and so um i did this job at the bbc where i was like the in-house comedy writer so i was in this building writing on like shows like the news quiz and the now show and things like that. And then finished that job, had a complete breakdown, ended up having a massive mental health crash

and called Lizzie and told her what had been happening. We hadn't been speaking very much at the time and Lizzie told me that she'd been in a massive amount of debt and she hadn't told me that either. And we both just burst out laughing. It feels like a phone call we should have cried our eyes out at, but we just couldn't stop laughing. And I feel that just sums up us and the show.

Totally. And it just felt like that was exactly how we've always dealt with the worst things that have happened to us. So you had had a breakdown. You had a huge amount of debt. You shared it with each other because you're sisters and you like intimate details of your life. And you both laughed

hysterically about it but what made you think oh hang on we should maybe I should maybe write about this I think it just felt like from that reaction it felt like there was just something in that that like I wanted to capture and show is that like that's how we deal with things and just by talking about it and laughing made me feel so much better about everything I'd been keeping secret or the things I felt embarrassed about and been trying to hide and then putting it into like a script and like rewriting it and giving it to like Josie the character to deal with just felt like a very cathartic fun experience to go through and like kind of relive the worst bits and just figure out what can we cherry pick to put and show and make people laugh with because then it turns into yeah it's like taking your power back Kat says an amazing thing where it's like the

monster's so much more scary when you can't see it and you know as soon as you take it into the light it's no longer this terrifying thing that you keep in the corner and I feel like this was kind of us taking our power back in this situation yes absolutely what I was thinking as well once you've kind of named it laughed at it it, it's powerless. Tell us about Josie. Tell us about both your characters. So I have to say Josie's not me. But she's definitely inspired by bits of me, like my obsession with my own trauma and how I think it makes me interesting and how I kind of weaponize that um and like my complete lack of ability to confront anything in my life and like feeling lost in this quest for who I am like I'm constantly trying to reinvent who I am and figure it out I keep thinking I'm gonna discover it but I never quite get there and that's what I wanted to put into this character it's just someone who's just taken along for the

ride by her sister Billie um who is also fictional but heavily based on Lizzie. So tell us about Billie. Yeah, I feel like obviously Billie isn't me but she's definitely based on probably my worst traits that Kate's very kindly highlighted for everyone to see. I have to say Lizzie calls me Kate. Oh, yeah, sorry. She's tried to rebrand. I did that again, reinventing. So this is reinventing as Kat.

Exactly, yes. She's not having any of it. No, she's not in it. Not me, babe. Yes, Billie, I feel like she's very brave. She's bold. She doesn't care what people think about her. But she is also very vulnerable.

But she definitely wouldn't like if you knew that about her. And she's her mum's favourite. Yes. Deb. Rightly so. She's easier to get along with. I'm a vibe kill. I agree.

That is me. She brings the mood down 24-7. With the characters I wanted to have it that I feel like when you respond to like trauma growing up or particular strange circumstances I think you can either have like spikes that turn inwards on yourself or you can have spikes that turn outwards and you're angry at the world for what happened and I feel like Billy's very angry at the world and lashes out at the people that are closest to her whereas Josie just absolutely hates herself in every part yeah definitely as well as it being a quite a very dark comedy um which i fully appreciate um because unless you're exploring you know women and what

women go through and the relationship between the two sisters we'll get into all of that but also we're seeing kind of the reality and the grossness it's quite grotesque at times um that scene where you're on the toilet and you're just having a conversation or even just the um the the titles are spelled out in the shower such brave girls with hair yeah yeah we wanted to be as grotesque as possible just to show like i mean it's just showing the reality of like we grew up in a women household me k? I mean, it's just showing the reality of, like, we grew up in a women's household, me, Kate and mum, and it's like, I don't think people really see behind that curtain the real reality of that, you know, like, plucking each other's stray pubes.

Yeah, exactly. You don't see that. We wanted to have the bathroom be, like, the friend's cafe of the show, you know, because I feel like that's where a lot of our crack team meetings happen and we do our game plans. And they were they were like when me and Kate first wrote the like first couple of drafts they were like can we do less toilet scenes every scene we wanted was me on the toilet I'm having a poo on the toilet they were like let's get into a bit better you got quite a lot in in the first episode thank you much. I don't think people realise just how much women talk about their bowel movements.

Yeah, really important. I have very important meetings in the toilet. Very important. A lot get shared. Can we talk about the mum as well? Of course. Because, I mean, I love the mother. I think my producer thought, I mean, we've got differing opinions.

Yeah. But that's okay. She divides the room. I quite like that. She's quite rude to her daughters and quite direct because, you know, all three characters are quite full on and exhausting. Narcissists. Narcissists.

Yes. Exactly. How does your mum watch? What does mum think? I think she thinks... Lizzie says that she's laughed in all the right places, which is a really good sign. She knows it's not her, though.

I took bits of like I think the dynamic and the challenges we face with like our parents and the kind of um difficulties in communication we have and the sort of changing in language that's happening and like it was important to me to show that nobody's necessarily right um in half the conversations we're having in the show um but I do think it does split the room. Like for some people, Deb is the most selfless character because yes, she can be like quite mad at what she does, but it's almost always to save the house or for the kids. Like, so it's pretty selfless.

Whereas like Billy and Josie are just thinking about themselves. Yeah. And I feel like Louise Brealey's performance was just so incredible, you know, like the bravest, most vile performance. And that's why, you know, people do watch it and they will probably be like, oh, my goodness, has she actually said that? You know, can she actually say that to her kids? And that's what we really wanted to see, you know, like a mum character who's not, you know, sugarcoating everything, who is just being her and that is our family dynamic totally like a big sister more of an amato which is yeah we all talk to each other just and we're all so numb to like what's going on in our house because we've been together for so long and and it is and it's that uh dynamic and the relation is three women specifically housed together and the intensity of that relationship the mum with the two very different daughters yeah um you mentioned louise and the and her acting is brilliant as Deb the mum,

but you've never acted before. Never. And you are absolutely incredible. Wow. Did you know you were going to cast your little sister? It was never going to be anyone else. Also, I wouldn't have given her an option. Imagine if she'd gone to someone else.

Imagine. Imagine that. Someone better than me playing me. She's not even looking at you right now did you have a choice no no no way it's just because lizzie was so involved in like the their stories and i took so much of the trauma we've experienced that it just felt like it was needed to be just as much of a catharsis for lizzie as it was was for me in the making of it and also she's just a brilliant actor like I've never seen anyone like

her on screen before and that's so exciting for me like to see a character like well I've never seen both either of your characters on screen absolutely delightful um how did you feel seeing that your trauma turned into comedy it's been a strange experience I've actually felt I've gone around the houses on it and I've been reaffirmed, close to it coming out on TV now, that I feel excited that I've been able to kind of deal with stuff and talk about it and make people laugh. And that's been really helpful.

And I think it's made me and Lizzie talk more about some of the stuff we've been through. And maybe it's a bit of therapy, really. Yeah, totally. I feel like a lot of the trauma comes from a real, true place. And Kate was really passionate about bringing these stories to life. Like, you know, the abortion story with Billy, you don't really see a lot of the trauma comes from a real true place. And Kate was really passionate about bringing these stories to life. Like, you know, the abortion story with Billy, you don't really see a lot of that on TV

and it's not usually done in a selfish way that Billy does it and in a light way, you know. It's not this taboo thing that you talk about in the corner. We wanted to talk about things, awful things that have happened to us and now watching it on screen, it's kind of taking our power back, like I said. So how did you decide what you were going to go, what you were going to discuss? Well, it basically came about from us talking and having that conversation.

And then we just had like, we went back through and thought, what did we actually do to deal with those things? And we interviewed, I interviewed Lizzie on a lot of what happened because I'm very keen on making it feel as authentic as possible. And Lizzie kind of explained to me what had gone on and then like I went from there and like went out and sort of strategized how I could fit into like a sitcom world and like cherry pick what could go in so it took a it took a lot of storyboarding and I had this office Val the production company gave me an office that I literally covered the walls and post-it notes where it looked mad didn't it yeah and also I talk a lot so Kate really had to filter through what was worthwhile so she'd interview me for like four hours yapper yapper yapper and she'd be like okay that's one thing you said that might work so presumably you've got a

lifetime's worth of experience of this though definitely yeah but Lizzie can make anything funny yeah I read in an interview that Lizzie is the funniest person you know yeah she's what that is like the biggest compliment is from your big sister and who knows if she actually means that I'm taking it Lizzie can have me like buckled over thinking I'm gonna be sick with laughter just telling me about what she had for breakfast like I don't know how she does it I think she's just got this but maybe it's like we've got a shared sense of humor yeah it comes from kind of like a shared trauma that means that we just sort of have a sideways look at the world. Which really helped like in scenes in the show because we didn't have to do a lot of discussion about what we were going to do in the scene.

You know, we kind of went into it going, OK, I kind of know what performance we're going to give. Let's just talk to each other like normal. Totally. How much of a laugh did you have filming this? Oh, my goodness. Yeah. There were scenes where we were biting our cheeks trying not to laugh. Like blood in my mouth holding it in oh

my god go on hysterical there's um there's a scene where billy goes into the toilet and she's trying to like she went into the toilet amazing billy is in the toilet shock revelation but she's in the toilet and she's trying to um nail file off a hickey that she's just been given and I was really going for it in this mirror with like really grotesque facials and it was the first day of filming and Kate was crying and everyone was like come on guys pick it up but we had incredible actors as well like Freddie Meredith who's like the best improviser ever every take he did was just ridiculous always doing something weird always doing something weird. Always doing something weird. Let's talk about the director as well,

because it's Simon Bird who directed the show, who most will know as Will from The Inbetweeners. What was it like working with him? Well, he's like our hero. Yeah, he is totally my comedy idol. And he just made everything fun. He set the tone for how those six weeks of shooting were going to be. So he came in and just knew that everything was going to be fun.

It was going to be a game. Don't worry too much about what you're doing just prioritize doing it again and again as many times as you want and just like made everything fun like he would have like compliments that he'd give us like compliments in a pocket that you could have if you did a good take and he'd give it yeah but there was there was like a few dud ones in that that was like I really wish you'd be better at this it's like if you pick the bad one out your day would be ruined but he was just so fun like and he totally was aligned with us on what we wanted to achieve with the show he read the pilot and approached you didn't he yes he did what a compliment what a compliment what a compliment and I'm so glad he did and he in in the letter he wrote he just said everything he said aligned with how we felt about the show which

is that the comedy comes first like because there was a world in which it became a comedy drama because of the content that's in it. But he very much was like, it's joke led sitcom and it's going to be funny. And that's exactly how we felt. Why did you want to write this? I just think I've not seen something like that where nothing has to be caveated in the same way or you need people to feel like a certain way for you. I just wanted it to be that you can watch the show and laugh and treat it like a sitcom and prove that you can deal with these important, like, scary things in, like, a funny way and that is something you can do.

What do you want people to take away from it? Maybe that things aren't, like, you can talk about stuff and it's not scary, like, and we can laugh about these things and, like, sometimes you might think something you're thinking is terrible or evil or weird. But we think them too. And we're putting it on screen. And I'm sure so many other families have that dynamic at home and they just don't really show it. Totally.

We just wanted to show three unlikable characters begging for men. Begging for men. And that's the other big part of it, that all their self-esteem is just attached to other people. Yeah, totally. Watching it and you think, God, that's what we do. That's what women do. And men who just don't care if they live or die.

They just don't care. Yeah, it was very interesting to us to have that kind of thing where it's like, I think the characters all feel a bit like, if I am loved, then I have a right to exist. And I think it's kind of like constant quest for that proof. And I wanted to take bit like, if I am loved, then I have a right to exist. And I think it's kind of like constant quest for that proof. And I wanted to take with Billy, Deb and Josie, the kind of ways they do that.

So Billy's obsessed with changing herself for men. If she changes just another physical thing, she'll achieve it and someone will love her. Whereas Deb's character's like, if I just get this money from him, then I can have proof that I'm loved. Then I can live in his huge house. Massive. Exactly. Well it's absolutely brilliant and I cannot wait for everyone to watch it and and your first acting experience but I think this is the start of massive things for both of you so

thank you yeah come back and talk to us actually we are asking our audience to tell us about a photograph that takes them back to a specific place or it doesn't have to be a photograph of themselves just some a photograph that makes them think about their own history that really stands out for them have you got one i've got one my background on my phone is me and lizzie um on the bus and i think we must be about three and five and we're both looking we're both going straight down the lens with our eyes and Lizzie's smiling and I look worried and it just completely sums up our dynamic

our whole childhood it's been such a pleasure talking to you best of luck with it thank you so much this is an amazing thing on here yeah thank you so much for letting us be on thank you so much you're welcome

it's called Such Brave Girls it starts on Wednesday on BBC3 and it's going to be on iplayer watch it it's ace thank you uh like i said loads of you getting in touch about uh photographs if you're early um your photographs um from your childhood i have a photograph of my father where he's posing with muhammad ali ali visited birmingham in aug August 1983 and my father ran a small hospitality company that were given the chance to show Ali around Birmingham during his visit. In the photograph, my father is jokingly pretending to punch Ali and Ali signed it,

Enjoy life, it's later than you think. My father died aged 51 in 2001 when I was 14. He lived with such a zest for life and I treasure every moment I had with him. And Ali's words mean so much to me now and will forever. These are good stories. Another one here saying,

the picture which always makes me smile and fills my heart with love is a picture of my mum standing on the veranda of our flat in Holland in 1979. And my dad was posted there during his army career. My mum is looking beautiful

with her fashionable outfit and long flowing hair holding my big sister. My sister is about one and has a big grin on her face. And you guessed it, I'm in my mum's tummy. Little did they know what was to come. 84844 is the number to text. And actually lots of you getting in touch about nursery places, which is the first item on the programme.

Early years educators are treated as glorified babysitters in this country. Treat them and pay them for the professionals that they are. It's one of the most important jobs, along with teachers, yet we're repeatedly treated as if we're just a burdensome necessity and the future of our children doesn't matter. Look at Scandinavia, Germany, Holland and so many more. We are positively backwards in comparison. It's an embarrassment.

And Anna says, my daughter manages a large 150 place nursery. She works under huge pressure every day trying to run the nursery to the high standards expected by Ofsted, constantly short staffed every day. She works very long hours and weekends on occasions. She's a professional, totally dedicated to her job. She's underpaid thoroughly, undervalued for the responsibilities taken, her experience level management and organisational skills. She considers giving up her position regularly and taking a different job because of all the difficulties, mainly with staffing. Well, thank you for your thoughts. Keep them coming in. That text number, once again, is 84844. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now, it's been announced this week that Emma Hayes will leave Chelsea at the end of the season to move into the international game as the USA Women's National Team appoint her as the world's highest paid female coach. Emma has been manager of Chelsea Women's Football Team for more than a decade, a reign made remarkable

by six Women's Super League titles, five FA Cups and two League Cups. Well, we spoke to Emma in the summer. Here she is speaking to Hayley Hassel about the particular considerations of coaching women. First of all, we're not men. Let's start with that. And with that comes a whole different set of challenges. I'm sure if I coached in men's football, I'd be asking exactly the same question.

But that has to be the starting point. From everything to how we eat, to how we rest, to how we train, to how we recover. All of those considerations need to be thought about, how we supplement, you know, we put the right things, something as basic as making sure we get omega-3 into our body because we can't ingest enough through our diet. But it's significant for women to ignore those things, plus the realities around women who perhaps aren't having regular periods

and the challenges that might come with that and then creating a support network which quite simply doesn't exist that's for me the big thing we have to drive industry change to say look if we want if we want women to be at their very best in sport we need more movement coaches that understand women we need more pelvic floor specialists we need more sports science around women's bodies. We need more research around women's sports. Like, we have to drive an industry change. And with that, I mean, I'm challenging academically.

You know, we need more higher education courses in and around training people in particular areas around women's health, women's bodies, and in particular to women's sports. I know we've seen a number of England players suffer with ACL injuries this season and other strains. You've done a lot of research on this, haven't you? Can you explain about what you found particularly in relation to players' injuries and how they are different to men? I think it's what I just described to you. When you have a industry that doesn't get the same, you know, equality of access to experts, we might have lower level or lower paid staff working in the women's game. Therefore, sport will be zero. Our training players and loading players without having any idea whatsoever that goes on for women.

And then when we get subsequent injuries where easily and cheaply we dismiss it as, oh, that's just the way, you know, our V angle from our hips to our knees because of the way we are shaped or it's just because of our hormones. Not only is outright ignorant, but it just shows you how much work we've got to do to be able to put in place experts and multidisciplinary teams to work together to make sure we not only keep the players on the pitch, but we build them in such a safe way

so that their bodies are developed and robust enough to cope with the demands of the game. That's Emma Hayes speaking to Hayley Hassel. And you can hear that interview in full. All you need to do is go to BBC Sounds and search for the Woman's Hour episode from Thursday 31st August. And of course you can text us on 84844. You can email me by going to the website

and our social media once again is at BBC Woman's Hour. Now Tish Merthyr is a celebrated photographer whose images of working-class life in the north-east of England can be found in the National Portrait Gallery and Tate Britain. Starting in the 1970s, she photographed some of the most deprived parts

of the country, showing children playing in skips, workers drinking pints after a mass layoff and teenagers messing around on abandoned mattresses. But although she's fated today, in her lifetime, Mertha struggled to find work of any kind. Well, now her daughter, Ella Mertha, has made a film about Tish's life and work.

And Ella joins me speaking from Newcastle, along with Jen Corcoran, who produced the documentary Jen and Ella, Welcome to Woman's Hour. I'm obsessed with the work. I have just done a deep dive into Tish's photographs and they're magnificent. Ella, what did you know about your mother's photography when you were growing up? Well, these pictures, like they were our wallpaper. Sorry, I feel really emotional.

I don't, I think all of the emotion of the buildup to the film being released has just got me. But thank you for saying what you said about my mum's work. But my mum's photos, like photography was just part of her. I can't imagine our life without photography. But I don't ever remember her earning a single penny from her work and um you know the fact that she died penniless feeling totally worthless um it just absolutely breaks my heart and that's been me my motivation really to make sure that she gets the recognition

that she deserves and we celebrate because you know it's the vein that runs through all of your mum's work is you know it's the tragedy and the comedy and you know like even though things can be really awful you have to try and make the best of it and that's what I've tried to do and so her life isn't just reduced to just dying in that way and I just wish that she could see how much love there is. I feel like I'm getting a whole new wave of grief this week. I feel really, it's lovely, it's really, really lovely that so many people are sort of resonating with the film and everything

but it is also really bittersweet that she's not here. Sure. Do you know what to say well i think we should find out a little bit more about her so tell it tell us about your mom she grew up in elzick i mentioned it was quite a deprived area just outside newcastle she was one of 10 children so when did she start taking photographs um as a teenager so um she found an old camera. Not sure where it was either in an abandoned house or a skip, but she found this camera anyway and it didn't even have any film in it. So initially she just started wearing it because they used to have sort of a problem in the area with curb crawlers, sort of pestering her and her friends and stuff.

So actually she was using it as a defense at first she just carried it because as soon as like a car came along and you know tried to pick one of them up she would just sort of flash the camera at them and like middle class um men would just speed off because they were terrified and so she just loved that initially and then um she had a friend called joss who was studying art and she um sort of introduced her boyfriend had a dark room and he sort of took my mom into the dark room and said look tish like you're actually good at this and i think when she found the power of photography coupled because she was very political yeah and so when she found

power of photography the two married together really well and she found a calling yeah Jen I mean she was very political what was she trying to do with her photos well I think she saw the injustice um that was happening in her surroundings um she was bearing witness to it with her camera, but she very much knew what she was doing. She wanted to use her pictures as evidence to make people's lives better. And one of her best known work is a youth and employment series. Ella made a book about it not too long ago. And Tish, I mean, as well as being a fantastic photographer, she was also a very talented writer, very intelligent woman. And she wrote an essay

to accompany this series of photographs about what she was seeing, which was talented people like her brothers and sisters, unable to sort of make their way in society, but they were moved onto these youth and employment schemes that were happening at the time um and she she wrote an essay and that was spoken about in parliament um just protesting um the the vandalism the cultural vandalism um that so much so much talent was wasted and she was really highlighting this community but there's such tender photographs as well there's so much humanity in her photographs and so much joy in the photographs. What do you think she was trying to say?

Well I think what was unique about Tish is that unlike lots of other I suppose social documentary photographers at the time she was from the streets that she photographed the people in the in the in her pictures were her family and friends and she very much didn't want her work to be sort of poverty safari you know kids with grubby faces and because of her experiences growing up. She did have a very volatile childhood. She had an empathy for her subject. You can see that in her pictures. But also she was celebrating the joy, the joy of childhood. You see that in the Juvenile Jazz Band series and in the Elswick Kids series. They're really wonderful, wonderful to see. She was a very strong character, your mother, wasn't she, Ella?

Tell us about how she got into Newport College of Art. I mean, that was one of the most prestigious art schools in the country at the time. Well, yeah, and it just makes me laugh because I can just imagine her getting her portfolio together and picking pictures and everything and just having this sort of energy behind her propelling her to to get to Newport and stuff and then she got there and um David Herney didn't even

want to look at any pictures he just said like um what do you want to photograph and she just said like I want to learn to take pictures of like policemen kicking kids and that was it he said you're in because like he knew that you know she knew exactly what she wanted to do when he knew she was going to be a social photographer and the way he saw it was that he didn't need to look at work because you can teach anyone how to point a camera and take a picture and compose an image but you cannot teach someone how to have passion, you know, you've either got passion, and my mum was very, very passionate. Where did her passion come from? Where did it come from, do you think?

I don't know, it's just like, I mean, probably my nana, do you know what I mean? Nana was a wonderful, like, old mother Hubbard with her 10 kids, but, you know, she really sort of instilled culture, like her favorite music, like Puccini, that was her favorite. There was always opera playing in the background and she would buy all the kids coloring pencils

and all of them, they all play instruments and a performer's like Minanna, she just allowed them creativity and you know she allowed them to find all of their own passions so I think probably from me Nana. So incredibly working class background humble really humble beginnings and 10 children but you're not you're amazing Nan instilled all this culture and introduced them to all this culture and in fact I know that you're named after Ella Fitzgerald as well which is great um so why wasn't she at success in her lifetime well I mean the photography world it's very I mean it's still dominated you

know by your white upper middle class men um and you know she didn't know her place you know, by your white upper middle class men. And, you know, she didn't know her place. You know, as a working class woman, you have to know your place. And, you know, she didn't accept. She wasn't going to be quiet. No, but why should she be? You know what I mean? You know, and, you know, she didn't sell out. She stood up.

She stood up for her values, you know, and these type of people in the art world, they don't like that. But also as well, I think she was a working class woman, she was a single mother, she had to make a living, she had to work. She was applying for photography awards at the time and unfortunately her talent wasn't being recognised, so she couldn't afford the chemicals and unfortunately her talent wasn't being recognized and so she couldn't afford the chemicals uh to develop her pictures um and then you know she was um sent to

work in a meat processing plant and you have to think of the work that was was lost while she's working to earn her living well there's another really moving bit in the documentary, Ella. I think it's you talking to your uncle and he tells you that he wanted to be an actor. And, you know, it's that, you know, how do you get access to the arts if you're from a really working class background? We're still having that conversation today, but it's particularly for your mum and your uncle in the 70s and 80s. Yeah. Yeah. If you don't mind me jumping in, it really hasn't changed. So Tish was fortunate that she had this fantastic college lecturer, Dennis, who encouraged her to apply to the

University of Newport and he showed her how to get an education grant to support her attendance. At the moment, tuition fees at university do I think make that level of education, it excludes people from working class backgrounds. And then you'll also see that arts degrees have been 100% defunded in recent years. And so I wonder how a Tish of today would get that far. And then elsewhere, arts organisations, like any other sector at the moment, have been cut to the bone, which means support schemes are missing, development funding is missing.

As an artist, you have to work for free for a long time to develop your ideas to the point that they can be funded. And again, in the economy that we we see today it is very difficult for for working class creatives to to make their way like tish did well we have had actually um spoke to the department of education about this and they've said that around half of pupils in state funded schools entered for arts course a key stage four in the past five years and they say they've invested over 740 million pounds between 2016 and 2022 in music and arts education programmes over and above school budgets. And they said earlier this year, the Office for Students awarded 57 million pounds to support specialist higher education providers, including in the creative and performing arts, so they can continue to offer more high quality education and training.

However, the conversation is around gatekeepers in the art world generally. And how do people, even if you have got got the education how do you then access those worlds um ella what was the experience like of making this documentary you started by saying how emotional you feel that it's the week that it's going to be released and it is an emotional watch because it's just the work itself is so powerful to look at and you can feel what it must have been like. Well, I can only imagine what it must have been like for you as a daughter, learning about your mum. So how do you feel having made this documentary? Was it a cathartic experience?

Definitely. I mean, when my mum died, I don't even know how I got through it, do you know, but it's this thing, like, I think it's a vein of, you know, you just have to get on with it, don't you? And I never really sort of processed what happened and I think this film has been my therapy, do you know? Like, some of it's been great. I love just travelling around on our road trips

and just sitting drinking cups of tea and talking to people. I love that. Some of it was really painful. Like some of, there's a part of the film where I'm talking to my auntie Eileen on the bench about, do you know, when my mum had had the brain hemorrhage

and I can't bear to watch that. It's too painful. But overall, it has been really sort of therapeutic and I'm just so proud that we made this together. A wonderful team, Jen and Paul, our director, like it's made friends forever. Well, what a wonderful way for you to honour your mother, but also really important that, you know,

finally this incredible artist gets the recognition she deserves. So well done. And it's highly recommended. Tish, directed by Paul Song, produced by Jen Corcoran and featuring Ella Murtha, is in cinemas from today. Ella and Jen, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having us thank you thank you bye now are you one of the many women who feel frustrated by their clothes on a daily

basis for years we've been told to dress for our shape and we've asked ourselves am i an apple or a pear or an hourglass or even an inverted triangle um or just the body of a small child still. Our shape doesn't stay the same over the course of our lifetime so these shapes are they still helpful? Well Anna Berkeley is a stylist, columnist for the Financial Times and founder of the body mapping app Think Shape. She believes we should actually be more interested in our proportions. She joins me in the studio to explain more and also Shekayla Forbes-Bell, fashion psychologist and author of Big Dress Energy, is here to help us understand why some clothes look better on us than others. Welcome, both of you. So, Anna, you want us to get to know our body shapes better. It's all about proportions. What do you mean? What do we need to know?

So, proportion is really things like how long your legs compared to your upper body for instance how big are your shoulders compared to your hips so it's all about the balancing act so everyone is unique everyone is different on the app we have 600 million permutations of the body section so it really does show how different every single woman is and if you understand those things then you can start to balance just like a beautiful painting or a photograph what you're looking for is balance so for example if you've got a broader shoulder then building out the hip to meet it actually looks really really good because the eye goes oh that looks that looks nice it's all looking sort of equal it's not a fashion thing

it's not about trend it's about what looks good on the body your body because everyone is different um it's also about placement so for example where do you put the waist do you tuck do you not tuck do you you know all of those different things that's to do with body length and leg length um so there's so much detail there uh neck length is another one so you do wear a polar neck do you wear a lower neck do you you know where do you put things? So with the app and with my work that I do with private clients, we are looking at what necklines suit you best. Where do you put your sleeves? How long is your arm? Everything. Who's coming to you? How old are people who are using them?

My mainstay is sort of 35 to late 60s, but my oldest client's 85 my youngest is 18 so it's so it's everyone but but the main ones are kind of at that in the thick of life i suppose i like to call it and are they surprised when you tell them about their proportions yes lots of them are because some aren't has said but you've got really short legs aged four you know to them and they've held on to that because we hold on obviously to the negative comments more than the positive ones and they're usually wrong so yeah it's it's a revelation and nine out of ten women don't know what shape they are either manchester metropolitan university scanned 4 000 women a few years ago and only 10 of them could correctly identify what shape they were so it's a there's so much to kind of unravel and and and get into and it's fascinating let's bring shakala in on this from a fashion psychologist perspective you want us to understand how our clothes uh work more so

what is it about the lines and the fabrics we wear that can make some clothes look good and others not so good yeah i think first before we even get into clothes i think we really need to understand how we feel about our bodies i think oftentimes when we talk about body image and body positivity, we conjure up images of women naked or women in their underwear and showcasing their bodies off like that. But we need to remember that we spend about 90%, if not 99% of our time in our clothes. And oftentimes the way that we feel about our bodies changes depending on what we're wearing, but we don't give ourselves the time to understand what we like and what we don't and I think that's where we're we're missing the trick a lot of the times we don't actually sit in front of the mirror and

acknowledge that you like your body in this dress versus when you're in that jumper or in those jeans and having that level of introspection and getting to know your body on that level will help you make better choices in the long run. Choices about what you think looks good on you rather than what you think should look good on you because you believe that that's what you should be wearing. It's the mistake so many of us wear. We've been talking, I mean, we had a good discussion about this in the office this morning because there's a stat that really jumped out at me. I'm going to bring it to both of you. Six in every 10 women feel negatively about their bodies and that's from the Women and Equality Survey from 2020.

That depressed me so much this morning. It's like, is this a conspiracy to just keep us occupied with something that really shouldn't be this important? The thought that six in ten of us wake up in the morning and don't like what we see. Yeah, it's such a shame and we are wasting so much energy and time and money and being anxious about really important things.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, obviously it is important to you. Of course it is. But if you understand a little bit more about how you're built and also it's the acceptance, that's really, really important, of course. and I think we get better at that as we age which is helpful but it's just having some key guidelines to follow just takes it away from you kind of thinking about it and focusing in on it so much so that we can just take away that anxiety

I mean I have lots of clients that don't go to things because they don't know what they're going to wear. And I'm like, come on, you know, it should be fun. This should be fun. Dressing should be enjoyable. It's stressful. Yeah. Why is it so stressful, Shakayla? Why are we doing, why are women not going to fun things just because they don't know what to wear? I think social comparison is such a major thing here. I mean, we're spending a lot of our lives online, consuming a lot of media, comparing ourselves to other people. And sometimes we're comparing ourselves to our past selves. For example, I just wrote an article about sizing issues and how people, especially women, they're going into the stores and they are not the size that they typically are. Sometimes they're a size up, sometimes they're a size down. It's messing with our body image on a continuous level.

It makes shopping not enjoyable anymore. It makes getting dressed not enjoyable. We're keeping clothes in our wardrobe that hasn't fit us for good many years. We're comparing ourselves to that fast version. Let's talk about that. Why are we, why have we got that size 10, 12 dress hung in the wardrobe? Because one day we're going to fit back into it. What's that psychology?

Why are we doing that? Why can we not just accept, as we're talking about today, that this is the shape we are? How do I best dress for the way I am today? I think a lot of us are resistant to change and nostalgia, looking back at our past selves, can be quite fond. I think we often look at our past selves with rose-coloured glasses, especially if that past self fits more into like Western beauty ideals of being very slim.

And it's difficult for us. And we need to understand that our clothes should be evolving with us. It should help us embrace all of the different stages in our lives. If you're opening your wardrobe and you're constantly being confronted with a past version

that you haven't been for a long time, it's going to negatively impact the way you're going forward. So that why a lot of like psychological experiments into body image encourage women to just really accept where they are now look into the mirror look at your body understand what you like understand what you don't and and it's okay to not like certain things about your body and your feelings about your body will change from day to day but you need to be more connected with it and you need to understand how you can highlight the things that you love and use other techniques and tactics to minimize the things that you don't and give yourself that level of power. You have power to control how you look every day.

Yeah, because sometimes people can make the accusation, you know, why are you talking about fashion? It's not important. I would argue it's highly political and very important because wearing the right clothes for you can make you feel great and make you behave in a completely different way. You can walk into a room with your shoulders held back. It just changes your complete attitude. So as Shaquille has just mentioned there, our bodies do change over time.

Anna, we've got you in the room. You're an expert. Menopausal women, what happens to our bodies? Give us tips, please. Well, I'm there as well. So I totally get it. So the bust changes, that's one thing. You know, that can go up and down

and it can actually change over time. So really, really difficult. So again, if the bust has grown a lot, you get that sort of hydraulic feeling, you're like, what the hell is this? You know, this is not good. Softer fabrics, open necks so v-necks scoop necks just keep your shirt open those types of things try and think about fabrics

that move around rather than shelve off the edge of the bust especially if it's grown a lot so that's one thing and also decide how you feel about it do you want to show off the bust or do you want to hide it so that's also important you mentioned something called the nipple loop to our producer yes so that's the center so basically it's the center of the bust so it's it's drawing a line straight through both nipples and if you think about the position of that that most women are wearing their bras too low and that's really aging because if you think about that just getting lower and lower and lower is that it's not a good it's not a good look so we always need to adjust them after they've been washed what you're looking for is to get the bust so the nipple loop into the center between the shoulder

head and your elbow so it's different for everyone but hike those straps up and if it's not comfortable just find a different bra you know get, get fitted, get measured every year. Really important. We're running out of time. I was just so fascinated by the nipple. Just a very simple one that I saw on social media. It was a woman who had a pair of jeans on that did not fit her at all. And then she had the same pair of jeans on and she looked amazing. And all she'd done is buy the size bigger.

Yeah. No one knows what size it is. Yeah. Wear something that just makes you look fabulous. And please look in the mirror and just think you are amazing the sizes are relevant they should just take them off that's it from me join me on Weekend Woman's Hour tomorrow thank you Shaquilla

thank you Anna and thanks to all of you for listening that's all for today's Woman's Hour join us again next time Hi I'm Sean Keeveney and I'm back with a new series of Your Place or Mine from BBC Radio 4, the travel show that's going nowhere. I'm a proper hornbird, me, but each show sees another remarkable guest try to persuade me off my sofa and into the big wide world.

And it is warm. It is warm, but you just don't wear a lot of clothes and you just find a banana tree that's wafting. Happy days. But will I make it out of the front door? Lots of smiles from people. I don't know if you're against that. Find out by listening to Your Place or Mine with Sean Keaveney on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.