Woman's Hour - Life beyond menopause, Maggie Blyth on needle spiking, Turning the Tide, Jealousy in friendships

Episode Date: December 29, 2022

If 2022 was the year of talking about menopause could 2023 be the year of looking at life beyond it? Joining Krupa to discuss the positive side of life after menopause is Caryn Franklin, fashion and identity commentator. Her latest audio book is SKEWED: Decoding Media Bias, which explores why women and girls are educated to fear ageing. And Supriya Nagarajan who made a life-changing decision during the menopause to focus on her first love - performing the traditional music of her south Asian roots.According to the National Police Chiefs Council, nearly 5,000 cases of needle and drink spiking were recorded by forces across England and Wales between September 2021 and August 2022. There were more than 2500 cases of spiking by needle, with women accounting for three quarters of the victims. However, only three per cent of blood samples sent for analysis were found to “contain a controlled drug that supports a spiking incident”, so potential victims of spiking are being urged to report to the police and get tested quickly - as some substances can leave the body within 12 hours. Krupa is joined by Deputy Chief Constable Maggie Blyth, the National Police Chiefs Council lead on violence against women and girls.A new film and exhibition called Turning the Tide looks at the role of women in the renewable energy sector through movement and dance. The short film features women in graceful action at landmarks such as the Humber Bridge, and at an offshore wind turbine blade factory in Hull. Created in partnership with the Women's Movement 100 project which is celebrating the 100 years of female suffrage, it's the brainchild of choreographer Freddie Garland, who has done similar projects recognising women in industry in Sheffield and Newcastle. She speaks to Krupa along with Louise Smith, one of the dancers in the film and director of the University of Hull's Aura Innovation Centre. A new historical drama begins this evening on BBC Two, about the ill-fated French queen Marie Antoinette. The award-winning French costume designer Madeline Fontaine is the woman who was tasked with recreating the sumptuous and extravagant outfits that are paraded around Versailles on the show. She joins Krupa.Is it OK to be jealous of your friends? With the festive period in full swing, it can be a time of feeling envious of people gathering and having a good time on social media – but how do we tame the green-eyed monster that can surface when we see that our friends are happy and doing well? Krupa is joined by female friendship coach Danielle Bayard Jackson and journalist and author Claire Cohen to discuss.

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupa Bharti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning and thank you for joining us. This festive season you might be spending a lot more time with friends or you might be seeing what they're getting up to over on social media. Pictures of large happy family gatherings or holiday workouts. Later this morning we're going to explore jealousy in friendships, why it happens, whether it can ever be healthy when it becomes toxic.

Is it realistic to never be jealous of your friends? I'd like to hear your experiences. You don't need to share your name with us, but please do share your experience with us. Many of you have already done that over at BBC Women's Hour. Another conversation I'd love to hear from you about is life after menopause. Karen Franklin, formerly of The Closed Show and the Indian classical musician Supriya Nagarajan will join us to talk about reclaiming and liberating themselves after their menopause. And I want to know from you what changed for you after your experience of the menopause.

You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Over on social media, you'll find us on the handle at BBC Women's Hour. You can, of course, email us via our website and you can now send us a WhatsApp message or a audio voice note using the number 03700 100 444. And if you are one for period dramas, then you are in for a feast for the eyes. A new historical series begins this evening on BBC Two about the controversial French Queen Marie Antoinette. Madeleine Fontaine is the creative force behind the exquisite costume design and she will join us. But first, according to the National Police Chiefs Council, nearly 5,000 cases of needle and drink spiking were recorded

by forces across England and Wales between September 2021 and August 2022. A few more numbers for you. There were more than 2,500 cases of spiking by needle, with women accounting for three quarters of the victims. However, only 3% of samples sent for analysis were found to, I quote, contain a controlled drug that supports a spiking incident. So potential victims of spiking are being urged to report to the police and get tested quickly as sub-substances can leave the body within just 12 hours.

And so ahead of New Year's Eve parties, police are also reiterating advice on what to do if you or someone you know might have been spiked. To discuss this issue, I'm joined now by Deputy Police, the Deputy Chief Constable Maggie Blythe, the National Police Chiefs Council lead on violence against women and girls. Thank you for joining us this morning, Maggie. Good morning and thank you very much for inviting me onto the programme. Can we start with getting your response to these figures?

How surprised are you by them? Thank you. We started looking in detail at spiking data at the end of 2021, when we first started to get quite unprecedented reports about needle spiking. And you'll recall, there was a lot of fear and concern. And quite rightly, women and girls felt unconfident about what these incidents were saying. So we looked in detail at needle spiking and then also reinforced our understanding and building up an intelligence picture about drink spiking per se. So the data that we've released today is both needle spiking and drink spiking. And I think as a bit of a pretext, there are several crimes covering spiking under the Sexual Offences Act, Offences Against

the Person Act, General Assault. And these are extremely serious offences. Spiking is a vile crime and policing is ruthless and wants to be ruthless in pursuing anyone responsible. So in releasing the figures today, we want to try and provide some reassurance to our communities about what's going on, but also to raise awareness about both needle and drink spiking. And I think what the data broadly tells us is that drink spiking remains more of a concern and is more prevalent. And on a monthly basis over the last 12 months, we've been able to say that that has remained quite steady at the number of reports into us each month, whereas needle spiking has actually stabilised during 2022. Those reports in at the last quarter of 2021, often associated with universities and Freshers' Week, Freshers' Month at the time, have not been repeated this year. And we think that might be largely because of the work that has gone on with universities in preparation for Freshers' Month this year, with licensing authorities, with pubs and clubs to really be the ears and eyes of spiking locally.

And this all goes back to what you were saying about raising awareness. But before we continue to unpick some of what you've just said, raising awareness, some of that is simply defining what needle spiking is. How is it defined in the eyes of the law? It's defined very broadly by saying it's essentially an offence by which a victim is administered against their consent, without their knowledge, by a needle or an injection. There are several crimes, as I said, covering spiking, those linked to Sexual Offences Act. They link to assault, offences against the person.

And the sentence that can be given to a perpetrator, to anyone responsible for spiking, a sentence can carry up to 10 years. But if the definition is so very broad, as you've just highlighted there, is that not the kind of fundamentals of the problem here? Because you're trying to encourage more people to come forward when they feel like they may have been spiked in any way. But if the definition is so broad, does that not just play into the problem? I don't think so. I think the legislation is there. And we want women and girls in particular to report, though it's worth saying that there are male victims too of spiking, but predominantly it's the victims are women and girls. We want them to

report because we can prosecute. We have got legislation that allows us to pursue that. We are very interested in whether the secondary offending, once a victim knows they've been spiked, the sooner they can report it to us, the sooner we can look into whether there's been any secondary offending. At the moment, the information on that, again, is quite low. Our reports suggest around 17 percent of spiking reports also indicate sexual offending, a sexual act or robbery. Those remain quite low. So understanding the motives behind who these people are that are perpetrating this type of crime is still something we want to gather, which again is in encouraging people to come forward and feel confident in us to report is

important in building up that intelligence picture. And in putting the data out again today, we are saying to anyone who's out there who is a perpetrator, don't think you can get away with this. We are working so closely with our partners. Policing has really mobilised itself against spiking, preparing itself for the night-time economy. Most of the offences appear to be taking place on weekends, out in towns and cities in the nighttime economy, that that's where the large propensity of reports are coming from. Again, just looking at the detail that we went into through festivals in the summer and preparing for Freshers' Week,

we didn't get the level of reports that we thought we might. And can we explore that a bit more? I mean, first of all, you say time is of the essence, essentially, because these drugs, they pass through the system very, very quickly. This can make prosecution difficult. But before we explore how equipped the police are to deal with that specifically, that point you just made, women aren't necessarily coming forward. They don't feel reassured that they are going to be taken seriously. How do you reassure them? And it really concerns me that, and my message today is please report because police will take this seriously.

We are told, and I am regularly in contact with both police forces and with victims who say we don't feel confident to report because we're not sure you will take this seriously. We've also been told that some victims may have knowingly taken drugs. And the message today is don't let that stop you reporting. It's not a crime to have drugs in your system. And we are only concerned at the moment about catching the predators behind this type of crime, behind spiking. So don't think you won't be taken seriously. We also know that some

victims aren't aware they've been spiked till perhaps the day after, or it's only when talking through with friends that they think that this might be something that's happened. We also know that some victims turn up in emergency departments within A&E, at the moment very stretched emergency departments. So don't assume that that means we get to know about it either. Please report to us directly. Yeah, sorry to interrupt there. But how does that time lag impact the potential for prosecution? Because again, that goes back into reassuring people, doesn't it? Yes, it does. Gathering that intelligence is really important. So, for example,

if we pick up over a period of a few days that there's been a number of spiking incidents in a particular venue, we can work with licensing authorities, with local authorities to go into that venue to understand what's going on there, look at CCTV, look at the measures that the venue has taken to protect victims. We also know that if we can get in quickly with evidence, we can send off our forensic tests, which is following a urine sample, to get those back quickly to see whether there's been a drug administered link to spiking. We could also, very, very frankly, have much better chance of other sorts of evidence gathering to try and find out who the actual perpetrators are, look at witness statements, go into CCTV again. So it's really important to respond quickly.

The more days that go by, it's much, much harder to do that evidence gathering and bring people to justice. Moving on to a wider look at your current role, it's just over a year since you took on the role of coordinating the National Policing Response to Violence Against Women and Girls. What changes have you implemented in the approach to preventing violence against women? I think this has been an unprecedented year in my view and policing has really mobilised its response to violence against women and girls, all 43 forces have VORG as a clear priority, have clear action plans involving partners at local level, listening to victims and witnesses, listening to women and girls.

We've still got a long way to go, but I'm absolutely confident that violence against women and girls is a number one priority for every police force, addressing the violence and harm that many women and girls face every day. We're particularly looking at improving charge and prosecution rates and domestic abuse and rape. We're particularly wanting to ensure that the trust and confidence in us is rebuilt and restored. And that's something that I hear every day from not just victims women and girls out in communities but also from frontline police officers working within policing we want

women and girls to report and on that on that trust factor there was a damning report from November this year showing that hundreds of police officers who should have failed vetting checks may be in the job. One officer convicted of domestic abuse, another of sexual assault. They were amongst those individuals accepted into the force. And as we know, Sarah Everard was murdered by a serving police officer. Is your vetting process vigorous enough to protect women? Vetting is one part of the issue, and it's very fundamentally important to ensure that we vet who comes into the profession.

But it's equally as important to ensure that we stamp out misogyny, sexism, sexualised behaviour within our workforce. And the fact that we're seeing more and more cases come into the public domain, that is because we are relentlessly pursuing anyone within our own organisation whose standards of conduct fall below what we would expect of a police officer. We think that will continue into 2023 as we continue to shine the light on what we expect within our workforce. And again, I'm seeing police officers come forward to me all the time

to say we feel that if we are facing concerns internally within our own workforce, we are being listened to. And I think we'll see that shift and change continue into next year. And part of why I wanted to come on the programme today, not just to talk about spiking, but is to increase that trust and confidence from women and girls towards policing. It's really important that we take these crimes seriously. And it's really important that we tackle this type of violence, not just within our own organisation, but within society, because ultimately, sexism, misogyny, sexualised behaviour is something, as you know, women and

girls have faced for decades. Well, we thank you for coming on to Women's Hour to share that message with our listeners. Thank you so much. The Deputy Chief Constable Maggie Blythe, the National Police Chiefs Council Lead on Violence Against Women and Girls. Thank you for your time here on the programme. Thank you very much. Next, if 2022 was the year of talking about menopause could 2023 be the year of looking at life beyond it we want to get that conversation going and with me to discuss the positive side

of life after menopause are karen franklin the fashion and identity commentator her latest audiobook is skewed decoding media bias which which explores, amongst many things, why women and girls are educated to fear ageing. And Supriya Nagarajan, who made a life-changing decision during the menopause to focus on her first love, performing the traditional music of her South Asian roots. And she's also set up Mana Samitra, which champions Asian women composers and promotes South Asian women music rather to a wider audience. Thank you both for joining us. Good morning, Krupa. Good morning. Well,

Karen, why don't we start with you? The positive side of menopause, we are going to look into that in a moment. But let's talk about your personal journey through the menopause. What was that like? Did you ever think there could be any degree of positivity on the other side of it? Well, I'd like to focus on the lack of information that we kind of all have to deal with because it simply has been a taboo subject. So there's been no vocabulary to describe what's happening. And not all women need this guidance. Not all women need to access hormones. But because nothing has been said, you're in the kind of chaos. There's a lot of cognitive disruption as the oestrogen withdraws. And there are benefits to that, which we're going to get to very shortly. very difficult to find the help I needed and literally thought I was going into early onset dementia. And of course, that impacts on how you are in the workplace. Because of the job I do, I just scripted myself all day long in order to be able to perform to a standard that I wanted to.

But what I have spoken to my grown up daughters about and want to kind of make clear is that we're over that hurdle now. There's recognition that menopause isn't something that women have got to go through, muddle through, that we're all out there in the workplace and we deserve to operate as optimum human beings. Yes, access to information is changing. Perception of taboos is certainly changing. Supriya, the same question to you. I mean, Karen, you've written that every woman's experience of menopause is different. And that is important to acknowledge. Supriya, what's your journey been like? My journey has been slightly different because I sort of anticipated menopause a few years before it actually happened.

So the perimenopausal stage of my life was very interesting. I started to recognize the fact that the way my mental health was, was very different to what I had been. You know, the positivity, the challenges, everything that, you know, I was going through was slightly different in the perimenopausal stages. And I was really lucky because the rest of the family are all doctors. So, you know, actually asking a question about menopause was an easy thing for me.

So I would just turn around, ask questions. I think I dealt with it by having a lot of curiosity in my own state of mind and dealing with it through music really so music helped me deal with any changes that I went through during that phase so when the menopause actually arrived I was already there so it it sort of the journey was more interesting. And, you know, there were ups and downs during the journey. But when I actually got there, it was all, you know, it was wonderful, because there was life after that. It sounds like you were almost one step ahead. So that's really what it sounds like.

Yes. We've had Sarah message us saying, I feel so sad when this language is used. After the menopause, beyond the menopause, she does then go on to explain her journey. And then she writes, the words beyond and after lead younger women, men, employers and colleagues to imagine that you will get over this phase and invalidates the experience of many women who continue to struggle with the menopause. Let's talk about the language, not just around the menopause, but with regards to the chapter after menopause.

Because Karen, you've written that on the other side of menopause, there is something that really has no name and should have a name. What would you call it and why? Well, it's empowerment in most basic terms. And for us to have the information that we deserve about how estrogen and progesterone withdrawal actually affects our cognitive process, helps us understand took that time to kind of prepare and move into that space. And I just expected to work long hours, devoted partner, devoted parent, devoted workspace colleague, and not take any time to recognise my body was going through this recalibration. But the amazing thing is that it does start to focus you on a different aspect of yourself. You're giving birth to a new you. And again, you know, where do we find this in our language? The Japanese call it the second spring. I was just talking on Instagram to some women. And so someone on the post contributed that. Where do we find this incredible space where

female emotional intelligence, wisdom, gut, knowledge, all comes to the fore? Because we're not taken up with the hands-on business of child rearing in the way that we were. And I think most women would still say that all of the minutiae, the miniature decisions, the relationships that we all have to keep to make sure that we can run this parenting exercise, as well as looking after our children, that takes a lot of energy. And suddenly, you've got that energy, what are you going to focus it on so for me it was studying a master of science in applied psychology to work out why some of the barriers in fashion were still existing despite my challenge to things like unachievable body

well for one of our listeners who's been in touch, for them, it was throwing themselves into writing. At 67, they're doing a second master's degree for creative writing. I am also amazed at how happily I am married and have strong connections with both my sons and recently and more recently, my stepdaughter. There are ongoing struggles, but life is good. And for you, Supriya, as someone who worked in a bank as an accountant for most of your life, post-menopause, you decide, or during menopause, you decided to focus on your music, a massive change. I mean, you turned to Indian classical music specifically, something that you don't take on lightly.

It requires the utmost discipline. What gave you the confidence to take that on? I absolutely love the idea of the second spring concept, Carrie, there. And I think my second spring started quite early, like I said. And I've always been a musician. I've always, I learned music as a young child and continue to pursue my music. So accountancy was a choice of career that was made for me rather than something that I made myself. Because coming from an academic middle class background from India, that was a natural choice for me to go into. But then, you know, at 40, I had the choice to change my career. I had the support from my partner.

I had the support from my children. So that was the time I could either shift and make the change or not. And I think that was the best thing that happened when I took up music full time, decided to make a career out of it, which has taken me a long time. Being a South Asian, you know, woman of 40 plus. It hasn't been an easy journey, but it was the right journey because I could therefore then work at my pace. I could listen to my heart and head and I could, you know, have silences in my life as I feel that's really important. Because, you know, if you if I didn't have those days when I could silence my voice and silence,

you know, be in sort of almost meditate, then I think I couldn't have come out of the other side of menopause as a, you know, person who has a positive outlook on life. So I think all these little things matter. It's about how you treat yourself and how you look after your own health and well-being that actually matters in the end. So I did a lot of that. And yes, the journey was long and eventful, but I have come out at the other end feeling totally in control, really. Can we talk about the changes to our physical selves? Liz writes, I'm 60 and amazed at the huge personality shift following the menopause, released from the hormone driven desire to please men and the ups and downs, the tyranny of the menstrual cycle.

I find myself at peace and very content with my life. I mean, let's talk about the impact on the body. I mean, you've written specifically, Karen, that the body rules. What do you mean by that? Well, it's a very powerful physical barometer, isn't it? You know, when you listen to your body, it will talk to you. And I'd just like to bring in the mental resilience and robustness of all women who are confronted by a media that iconizes the sugar rush of youth, a momentary phase for

all women. And we all move into other phases, but we are sort of almost symbolically annihilated in the media as we age. And we don't see that celebration of beauty aging beautifully. We're sold a huge kind of deluge of youth enhancing, agedefying products. And so women have to plot this pathway with very few role models. I'm just going to say one thing, newscaster bias. We don't see women with grey hair presenting the news. I'm sitting here with long grey hair talking to you. And we see plenty of grey-haired men presenting the news. So women are kind of encouraged by our media to envisage a

future in which they are symbolically annihilated. And so we all kind of rise up in that and go, actually, I've got a huge amount to say about the way this planet is being run and the decisions that are being taken. And in my kind of cronehood state, I have a focus that is not distracted any longer. You talk about your glorious grey hair, which does look wonderful. Thank you. A lot more women are deciding to keep the greys. But linked to that, fashion advice for women after the menopause. Is there any? Should there be any?

And as someone who's worked in that industry for such a long time, what do you say? I have spent, and this is one of the reasons why I moved into psychology, because still at the top, we have male gaze when it comes to showcasing women's wear on female models to a female audience. So the model is often sexualised and she's often youthful. And so women don't get given the styling information. And yet over 40, we have four times as much to spend on one item of clothing. We're also looking to spend sustainably. We want clothes to last longer.

So we have male gays wanting to see the fantasy girlfriend, not the reality woman who walks the planet. And more and more women, I think, have taken the space to dress to please themselves. I've said before that I'm not playing the game of being decorative set dressing in a man-made world. I dress to please myself and to begin that conversation. And I think a lot of older women find that space quite naturally. I do want to put this message to you, Supriya. This is from Kimphil who writes, I feel it's harder. Cultural issues create having children. I'm British Indian. So when menopause hits, it's harder to deal with. Growing up, menopause wasn't discussed. So I never really talked about it with partners. At 47, I'm not trying to forgive myself for not having a child and being overwhelmed by this. My conversation is OK and we must continue.

I think what she's trying to get to there is that she's got no one to turn to, no one to talk to. You've talked about having a wider family of doctors and being able to turn to them. But in a lot of circumstances, a lot of cultures, women won't have anyone to turn to, their partners, their wider family, their mothers. I mean, what would you say to our listener there? I'm just going to share something that's really personal. So every morning when I wake up, I look in the mirror and I look at myself and I smile at myself. And it's a simple thing to do, but it actually makes my day better because I know inside who I am. So this act of actually smiling at myself in the mirror makes me feel better in some bizarre way. So, I mean, that's a small tip. I mean, it's not the answer to, it's not the solution. It's not the answer. And I think there are options out

there to speak. I mean, that there could be friends. I mean, I've read up on menopause in books. My mother was a social connector. She spoke to, she was somebody in the community that you approached to talk about things. So I've kept that going. I've tried to be an unconscious mentor to a lot of my friends who are going through it, younger friends who are going through it, sometimes really young as well, because menopause is not something that happens when you're 50 plus, it happens, it could happen when you're 35 plus for some women. And, you know, it's, it's about recognizing your own body, being happy within yourself, at yourself, and, you know, and finding the one person it could be you probably

don't have a big support system but you have one person that you could speak to or you could listen to there are podcasts there are so many options out there now if you don't feel like discussing things um you do have the options to listen in to people's experiences like today for example on radio 4 you can talk about people's experiences and take from there. And share them as well. And take what's relevant. Yeah. Thank you so much, Karen Franklin and Supriya Nagarajan,

for your insights there on life beyond the menopause. You are listening to Woman's Hour. If you do want to get in touch with any of the conversations we've been having, it's at BBC Woman's Hour over on social media. On to something a little different. A new film and exhibition called Turning the Tide looks at the role of women in the renewable energy sector through movement and dance.

Yes, you heard that correctly, through dance. The short film features women in graceful action at landmarks such as the Humber Bridge and an offshore wind turbine blade factory in Hull. Created in partnership with the Women's Movement 100 project, which is celebrating 100 years of female suffrage. It's the brainchild or choreographer, Freddie Garland. Louise Smith is one of the dancers in the film and is director at the University of Hull's Aura Innovation Centre. I spoke to them both and began by asking Freddie what message she was trying to tell with the latest project in Hull. So Hull is the latest chapter of Women's Movement 100. Newcastle was

Angels of the North, Sheffield was Women's Movement 100 and we'd previously looked at the historical side of things we'd looked at the political shifts we'd look at women's place within society we'd looked at the history of industry and coming from the north it very much was kind of our northern heritage was industry and then you come to Hull and Hull is literally on the brink of this new wave of industry and a future. And you know anything, hang on a minute, we've been looking at the last 100 years, but what happens next? Where is our future? And if our future is in energy, then we're right on its shoreline. You know, we have to look forward. We have to move ourselves again. And that's how Hull came about, really. Hull is, I mean, I'm Hull-born and bred,

so I'm a bit personally kind of in love with the place. But Hull is very much looking at the future place of women within industry, within engineering, within the renewable sector and energy. And it's important. And the final result there in Hull is stunning. It's flowing, it's gracious, you know, this delicate piano but also full of energy because it is made up of women who are working in the energy sector, one of which is Louise.

Let me bring you in here. Had you ever danced before? Well, I had like many of us. I'd done all the Royal Ballet exams until I was about 17 and then I left home and it all stopped and anyway I was the wrong shape I was too tall and my feet weren't the right shape to be a professional dancer and so I really stopped until I met Fred and she wanted my so I'm I work for Aura which is part of the University of Hull. And initially I thought it was just a letter of support.

And I said, of course, you know, it's an arts project and it's linked to industry. Of course, I'll support it. And she said, no, no, no, it means participating as well. And so that was a bit more daunting, but it has been exhilarating. And I can still dance. Some of us in the troupe had danced before and many of us hadn't but it was just. And were those people easy to convince that you know it's not just about putting your name on this arts project like you thought it was going to be you're actually going

to be on camera dancing? Well when you say yes you don't think that far ahead and 12 weeks of rehearsal every Thursday night on campus. We all came together. But the way Fred gets us together is it she makes it inclusive and possible for all of us. So there were all ages, all shapes and sizes, all abilities. One of our angels of the north is disabled, but even she could do it. And I think that was what was so precious about that time. So one of the one of the ideas that Fred had was to dance in front of these extraordinary turbine blades that are made in hull at the Siemens Gamesa factory. They're all handmade and they are just enormous. Each blade is over 100 metres.

And you can imagine those working in the factory sort of looking now what are they doing and we danced in our beautiful dresses but with safety boots so in the rain because it was raining that day but it was an extraordinary thing to mimic the movements of the turbine blades turning in the dance movements and I have to, I've never had an experience like that before and I probably won't again in the future, but it's all captured on film and it has been an amazing thing to do, really has. And we still are all in touch and dance together.

And on that, Freddie, keen to get your take on how you found training up these energy experts into profound glorious dancers energy experts into profound I mean it's it's a journey isn't it the opportunity to spend 12 weeks working with people sharing ideas looking into the research that they do then transforming it into movement that we that we bring together as a unit, as a team. And we perform it in various different spaces. And actually, over the course of that 12 weeks, you find that what essentially are all strangers. These people don't know each other, very few of them, you know, I've ever met previously. And as Louise said, you know I've ever met previously and as Louise said you know we we're now beyond the project

and we're still meeting on a Thursday night and we're still dancing. Tell me whose idea was it to shoot the film at the Cracker Dome? Oh it's Fred's so you know I sort of imagined it would be 6.30 but of course in high summer dawn in the north is at 3.30 in the morning. So there we were getting onto the bridge. You know, the Humber Bridge, which normally never allows people on to film, have been incredibly supportive, that whole team. And there we were at 1.30 in the morning in single file, trooping onto the bridge to be ready to dance at dawn

as the sun came up over the Humber River. And you took up the challenge and you were also dressed in very statuesque cream dresses. Freddie, can you describe them for us? And what were you trying to say by having the dancers wear these outfits? There was lots of symbolic reasoning behind it. But actually, one of the main things that came about when I started doing research was this lack of women that were shown within statues and monuments across the UK. And it created a feeling that actually women historically hadn't been involved.

So one of the things that I wanted to look at was how do we how do we create a dress that is inclusive? How do we create a dress that generates its own energy within the movement? And it also had to be something that when we look at it, when somebody is wearing it, they look like statues. They create these placements. They up the numbers of women within our statues and monuments. The colours, the ripples, the fabric, the way that it pleats, they look almost Greek in their way.

In many ways, it kind of ties into the, I wouldn't say invisibility, but the lack of presence of women within the sector. And Louise, I wonder whether you hoped that this project might influence the trajectory of women and girls participating in your sector? Very much so. You know, we have a skills gap and a labour shortage. It's in the news at the moment. And this is trying to tell a different story because it hasn't worked to date. The facts are stark at GCSE levels. It's about 50% girls, 50% boys taking science subjects. At A-levels, that drops down to 39%.

And then it just keeps dropping in industry and academia. So you end up with very few senior women in the industry and academia. And if there aren't any role models, then no one's going to change that. So through the arts, for me me this was trying to tell a different story so for us it's really important that we have more diversity more inclusion in this new industry we have such an opportunity it's a once in a generation opportunity with a new industry so let's do it differently let's tell a different story and get more women and more girls into the industry there are thousands of jobs that are going to be created,

particularly in the Humber. And so the desire is to inspire. And if this film just stops someone and thinks, maybe I will carry on with Stems Up or inspires women to come back into work or to choose a career in the renewable energy industry, I think that would be wonderful. That was Louise Smith and Freddie

Garland. The exhibition Turning the Tide is open from now until the 20th of January at the Aura Innovation Centre at Bridgehead Business Park in Hessel. Thank you to both of them. And thank you to those of you who have been getting in touch with your various comments about jealousy in friendships. We are going to talk about that towards the end of the programme and I do want to share some of the messages that have been coming in to us. Vera writes, I must admit I felt secret jealousy towards friends, dream jobs, weddings and homes purchases and baby announcement

and after struggles with these milestones, especially pregnancy loss, I find it difficult to make similar announcements for fear of causing pain to someone else. And this one from Miss Melly, who writes, my ex-husband's family was either jealous or judgmental when faced with positive news, depending if they approved or disapproved of what was happening. It's difficult to deal with as an in-law. There were funny moments too, like their compulsive buying of whatever new I had. Do get your messages in to us at BBC Women's Hour or text us or of course do email us as well

and we'll try and bring those into the conversation towards the end of the programme. A new historical drama begins this evening on BBC Two about the ill-fated French Queen Marie Antoinette. The award-winning French costume designer Madeleine Fontaine is the woman who was tasked with recreating the sumptuous and extravagant outfits that are paraded around Versailles on the show. And she joins me now. Good to have you with us, Madeleine.

I'm very happy to be there too. And I'm very, I mean, it's a good, it's a good, what would I say, coming after this last lady talking about the dance and the appearance and the costume and the feeling of the body in the costume is just a good link. Well, we are indeed continuing with that theme of costume in the arts. I mean, where do you start with a project as grand as this? What is the process?

I mean, I've been working on Versailles before, as you said, so I was already not in that period, but in that process of a long, long work, because it's like about six, yeah, six months at least, and then it restart for the next period. It's the same for this land for Jackie than you were, you know, just talking about before. It's just like it's some, you have to go into the story, into the history, and have a lot of indication of how it was to make sure that the distance you put in between the reality and what

you propose is not a mistake but it's, you know, it's conscient. Yeah, there's a lot of studying that you have to do and it really the final product really is a feast for the eyes. Did you have a colour palette in mind for each character, for example?

Yeah, sure, we had and you can see you will see, it's a lot of characters. So, of course, we need to have a palette for each one to help them be recognised easily and to be in harmony when they are together because there are a lot of people, a lot of characters. I find that easily to give a palette to each character. And then after that, it's moving in different shades, but it's important for me.

And I think it's important for the audience too, because it helps. And these colours, Madeleine, they do signify so much about the characters. I mean, for example, Marie Antoinette, she wears a lot of blue. Why is that significant? That blue is the colour of the royalty in France. This blue was the colour the more difficult to get. The royal blue is very deep and it needs a lot of pigments to make it, so it was really reserved to the high society. And Marie-Antoinette, she starts being in a light blue when she arrives, and you will

see that the blue is getting deeper and more present with the time because she's, she's fighting for it. Not, not, not independence, but she wants to break the cage. She wants to break the,

the rules and the protocol, which is so heavy. Like, you know, it's like a cage, not only physically, but you know, everything is just putting her into a rule and into a cage, kind of cage.

Yes, because linked to that, Madeleine, early on in the series, a young Marie Antoinette is told by the mistress of her new marital household that a French princess must not display her emotions. And I wonder, therefore, as you've just touched on, whether she is expressing her emotions through her outfits and as they evolve during the course of her lifetime. Yes, she's trying to break it as soon as she can. As soon as she becomes a queen, then she can a bit more easily influence the practices. But from the beginning, she's just terribly in jail with this costume, with this protocol,

with all the things that she has to do because it's like this and not another way. It's very hard on her. Yeah. Each dress has so many layers. There is one scene where she is being dressed by her various assistants and it's layer upon layer can you give us a sense of you know how long each costume like that takes to make and how many you had to make uh times to make is just like 10 days for a dress if it's not too much embroideries on it.

I mean 10 days, 10 people days because we are many on one piece of course and there are so many pieces for one costume. How many did we do? I think it's maybe I would say 200 because every character has many so we we tried to make it like you can use the same skirt with something else on top to make a wardrobe like you would do in life but it's a lot of pieces to make like you have at least uh taking into account the the underwear it's at least 10 pieces by costumes. So it's a lot. Yes, when we think of the costumes, we just think of the extravagance in the final product. But of course, you need to go right down to the underwear.

It's step by step, very intricate. And the final result is stunning. Finally, Madeleine, how influential was Marie Antoinette in changing fashion in France? I think it's the way she wanted to go out of this cage. She wanted to break the protocol to feel more free in her body and in her life. She was pushing out everything as she can in a very egotistic way, of course. But it was like being somewhere else than in Versailles, having a little place beside where the life is lighter,

put lighter dresses and more and more light at the end of her life, which was very young. But she was dressed like everybody said, it's a night gone. And it was so different of what she knew at the beginning of her arrival in Lausanne. So I think the way she found to free herself inside the cage was something which influenced a lot the fashion and the way of being of feeling the body of the ladies of the aristocracy of course for the others they were still dressed the same yeah madeline fontaine great to get your expertise on this and marie antooinette starts tonight on BBC Two at 9pm, with all episodes available immediately on BBC iPlayer.

Next, when your friends share positive news, such as a promotion, an engagement, a pregnancy, how do you find yourself feeling? Does it make you feel down? Do you end up comparing their lives with your own? With the festive period in full swing, it can be a time of feeling envious of people gathering and having a good time on social media.

But is it okay to be jealous of our friends? My next guest can help with answering that. Danielle Bayard-Jackson is a female friendship coach and host of the Friend Forward podcast. And Claire Cohen is a journalist and author of BFF, The Truth About Female Friendship. Good to have you both on the program. Danielle, let me start with you. You are a friendship coach. How common is it for women to talk to you about jealousy within their friendships? Yeah, it's actually surprisingly common. What I have noticed is that maybe a woman is feeling it

and she doesn't come right out and say it. But when she finally does get to a place where she can admit, I think this is what I'm feeling, it comes with her. She's cringing. She's reluctant. She's almost embarrassed to admit that these might be feelings that she's feeling toward a friend, someone who presumably she should not have those feelings against. It is a complex emotion, but it's also a natural emotion, is it not? Oh, absolutely. And I like to remind people that there's a lot of stuff under jealousy. So, you know, we often see these extreme manifestations of it in the media. And so because we see that, we're like, oh, gosh, I'm not jealous. I wouldn't dare be jealous. But underneath jealousy is, you know, perhaps insecurity or feelings of inadequacy or a fear of being left behind or rejection.

And so there are a range of emotions that come with that and they're all totally natural. We've had this message in from a single mother who can relate to much of what you've just said there. She says, I really struggle with a couple of friends and their families. I also have a fractured family. So this year it was just me, mum and my son. And I have really struggled with jealousy, mental health and people just keep telling me not to have expectations. I feel sad for my son that he doesn't have a big family Christmas.

And that there from Jasmine. Thank you for your honesty in that message, Jasmine. Claire, is it possible to, on one hand, be happy for friends at the same time as feeling jealous of them? Oh, absolutely. I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive at all. As you said, it is an absolutely natural human emotion when you hear about somebody else's success to turn the mirror back on yourself and to think, well, I haven't achieved that, or why haven't I had my career goal come good this year? Or why didn't my boss say that to me? Yes, it's very difficult if it's somebody who's a good friend,

and even more difficult in, say, a work situation where you might share the same goals, or you might be in the same industry, or you might have met in the office. But I don't think we should be trying to reject jealousy as an emotion, and that we should think it makes us a bad friend. It's absolutely right that we think, well, what does this mean to me? Why am I feeling this way? And it's really useful to examine those feelings. It doesn't mean you're not happy for your friend. I really do believe that. I think, you know, I think it's just normal that we think, oh, ouch, that stings a bit because I haven't achieved what they have. That's interesting. Using the word stings. A listener here has got in touch to write, it's envy, not jealousy.

There's a subtle but clear difference. Daniel, Danielle, rather. Can you tell me what that difference is? And, you know, is envy worse than jealousy, therefore? Yeah, that's a great point. And we should make a distinction here. I know that oftentimes people do use the two words synonymously. They're like, I'm jealous of my friend. But I've often heard it described as, you know, envy involves two people and jealousy three people. And what I mean by that is envy might be, I want what my friend has.

I want that for myself. Jealousy becomes, there's some kind of perceived interloper. So I fear that what I have is going to be taken or threatened. So a lot of times with our friends, we might feel envious. I wish I had what she has. But I know people tend to use the words interchangeably. Yeah, they certainly do. And Claire, coming back to you and exploring those negative connotations around the word jealous, it doesn't feel nice when someone called you out on it. No, absolutely not. I don't know how many people are calling their friends out on it. Maybe they are, maybe my friends are not. Or even admitting it to yourself, therefore. That's what I was going to come up with. I think that's the really hard bit sometimes,

because we do inherently think it makes us a bad person or a bad friend. And actually, you know, we've really been sold this narrative, which I do think is changing now. And I know this is something that gets discussed on Women's Hour a lot, that there can only be success to a certain level when you're a woman, right? We're often pitted against each other in the workplace. And there was this traditional narrative that only one woman could succeed and get to the top. And I think we have internalised that a little bit. And I think it really does play into these feelings of seeing jealousy as an incredibly negative thing instead of something. And this is not easy, I'm not saying it is,

but something we can actually harness and use to motivate us and use to really think about what our own goals might be. Motivate us. How do you use jealousy to motivate yourself? Well, I mean, it's not easy, is it? But, you know, if you think about what it is that your friend, I mean, say we're talking about a work situation. If you think about what your friend has achieved and what that says about what you want, what are your goals? What's the specific thing that you are envious of? That can be really useful. And what can also be useful, and this again is not an easy thing to do, is to have a conversation with your friend about it. That's tricky, isn't it? Which is very tricky. So I spoke to a woman from my book who actually did this with her friend. And they've been in a similar industry and had some similar goals. And she her friend suddenly had a huge success. And she was filled, consumed with envy.

It was keeping her up at night. So she sat down with her friend and she said, Look, I am incredibly happy for you. Please don't think that I'm not. I'm really proud of you. But this is slightly how I'm feeling. Like, how did you get there? What did you do? And actually, what that did is not only made her feel better and kind of helped her to identify where she wanted to go. It actually gave her friend a bit of an honest space to talk about her perceived success, because actually, she'd felt quite a lot of pressure to present this kind of perfect glossy image of this huge career success to their other friends. And by saying to her, you know, the friend who was

jealous by saying, actually, this is how I'm feeling. It gave her the space to say, actually, you know what, it's not perfect and glossy all the time. And here are some things that are going on behind closed doors for me. So actually, that really is an example of how we can create this narrative in our own heads around envy and around jealousy, can't we? And we can kind of let it fester and let it become a little bit of a resentment sometimes. But turn it on its head, yeah. Push yourself to have that hard conversation.

It could really surprise you. Michelle has been in touch and she writes, at 60 years old, I find myself with a cool group of special friends, most of whom I've seen over the Christmas period and they are genuine, life-affirming friendships for which I am grateful. These relationships have no room for envy. Talking about envy and jealousy,

Danielle, you have a huge following on TikTok, over 200,000 followers. But on the subject of social media, I mean, do you think people sharing what they're doing all the time and doing these personal news announcements with updates of their lives can also only make the situation much, much worse? Oh, 100%. And there's even been, you know, recent research that shows that social media specifically, you know, Instagram for women does have a certain impact, and it could be more detrimental than it is for men. And I think that's for a lot of different pressures, body image and things like that. And we're trying to compare to what everyone else has and what they're doing. And, you know, we hear it all the time, but taking a break from social media, or if you feel that you need to kind of filter what you see, or even if it's with your friends

lives. And I even say, you know, when we say I shouldn't be jealous of my friends or what they've got going on in social media, here's my take on this. And I don't know if people disagree, but after talking with several women every week in private sessions, you know, it's natural sometimes to feel that way toward your friends, because they're the people who are in closest proximity to you. They're modeling what's quote unquote normal. You look to them to know, am I on track? These are your peers. You know, you don't want to feel left behind.

If they're advancing in their careers, if they're having children, I mean, this is your immediate circle. So it's only natural, almost from like a psychological standpoint, or excuse me, a sociological standpoint, to observe the people in your nearest and dearest circle and to say, am I on track? And am I going to get left behind? And sure, social media can certainly kind of fuel some of those emotions. Yeah. Very briefly, in the last 30 seconds of the programme, do you both find yourselves feeling jealous of your female friends at times? Oh, absolutely. Who doesn't? It's honestly a completely natural normal emotion and i sometimes deal with that sometimes by talking to them about it but other times one of your listeners earlier mentioned things jealousy around weddings and around babies and that could be much much harder and much more shot through with emotion sometimes you do have to take a step back and just be kind to yourself. Danielle, briefly?

I absolutely have. And fortunately, I have friends who we can have that conversation and I can also know when it's time to kind of look internally and deal with those feelings on my own and grow from there. That's great advice.

Thank you so much to you both. And thank you to all of you, our listeners, for being in touch with your many messages. We are back again with you tomorrow. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds. Hi, I'm Andy Oliver, and I'd like to tell you all about my Radio 4 series, One Dish. It's all about why you love that one dish, the one that you could eat over and over again without ever getting tired of it. Each week, a very special guest will bring their favourite food to my table

and we'll be unpacking the history of it. And food psychologist, Kimberly Wilson, is on hand to talk us through the science bit. What food reminds you of your child? What's your favourite place to go for dinner? What do you have for Sunday lunch? What's your favourite place to go for dinner? What do you have for Sunday lunch? What's your favourite dessert? Do you say plantain or plantain?

What food would you take with you to a desert island? What's your favourite type of chilli oil? What do you have for breakfast? What's the best pasta steak? What's the one thing you don't like? So if you're the sort of person who's already planning what you're having for lunch while you're eating breakfast, then this podcast is going to be right up your street. That's One Dish with me, Andy Oliver.

Listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.