Woman's Hour - Lily Cole, Hasina Safi, Youmna Mouhamad

Episode Date: November 1, 2021

Lily Cole is a model, actor, filmmaker, entrepreneur, podcast host and environmental activist. She's written a book about the climate, offering solutions to global challenges. She now lives in Portugal but we speak to her from COP26 in Glasgow. We also speak to the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg who sets the scene for us in Glasgow. We go back to Hasina Safi, who used to be Women's Minister in Afghanistan. Now she's a refugee in the UK, living in an hotel. We find out how things are for her and her family since we spoke to her last month.We speak to Dr Youmna Mouhamad who's designed a new comb to make conditioning and combing afro hair easier and less painful. She explains how she came up with idea and how she moved from a concept to a engineered product.And finally Shadow Education Secretary Kate Green about secondary school children getting vaccines, and protests outside schools. Labour are now calling for exclusion zones around schools to "stop the spread of misinformation".

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the programme. It's good to be back. The majority of you will not be in Glasgow at apparently the UK's biggest event in terms of numbers of world leaders, COP26, the Global Climate Change Summit, at which presidents and prime ministers meet to try and keep a check on each other about what they're going to do about climate change. There are also campaigners, scientists, royal family members,

celebrities and, of course, journalists in attendance. Shortly, I'll be talking to our political editor, Laura Koonsberg, who's there, and also the environment campaigner and model, Lily Cole. But what's already being called flop 26 by some, especially after a weekend meeting of G20 leaders failed to commit to going carbon neutral by 2050 and ceasing to use coal, and with a new study commissioned by The Telegraph out today

showing more than 50% of people do not trust the government to recommend the right solutions for making their homes heated, cars and air travel more environmentally friendly in the ways that are deemed to be so at the moment. My question to you today is how much faith do you have in our leaders, in our political elected leaders coming together in Glasgow, most of them, not all, to set the world on the right course? And what are you doing to make a difference in your life? Far from Glasgow, wherever you are, maybe there as well, but not at the conference, get in touch with me here at Woman's Hour. You can text me on 84844, text to charge you a standard message rate. Social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or email me through our website.

Research has consistently shown that women care and are more likely to make ethical choices because of their concerns around climate. I know a lot of men listen to this programme as well, but I wanted to put that out there because it's a massive part of, if you like, the agenda from our perspective here at Women's Hour that we hear from you what you're doing,

what you want to see change, and also perhaps how you think things could be improved politically and also on a personal level. What are your sentiments as this climate change conference begins? Perhaps anger is a part of it. How important do you think a bit of anger is, or perhaps a lot, to change things? That word came up yesterday because you may have heard

the climate change activist Greta Thunberg talking about that to my colleague Andrew Marr yesterday on his politics show. There's a big controversy in Britain at the moment about tactics, something that you know a lot about, about blocking roads and so on. A lot of people would say that those kind of tactics just put people off. I think as long as, of course, to make clear, as long as no one gets hurt and as long as, of course, to make clear, as long as no one gets hurt, and as long as, yeah, then I think sometimes you need to anger some people. Like, for instance, the school strike movement would never have been so, would never have become so big

if there wasn't friction. Greta Thunberg there talking about a bit of anger, friction. Text me, 84844 with your reaction to that and also where you are with this as COP26 gets underway. I'm well aware that a lot of you will not have engaged perhaps with any of the detail of it yet. It's only just begun or maybe you're not quite sure what is happening.

Of course, right across Radio 4 and across the BBC, we'll keep you up to date. But as it begins, what are you doing in your life and where are you at with it? Also on today's programme, as many schools go back today, the Labour Party want exclusion zones set up around those facing anti-vax protesters. We'll hear the case. I also promised you that we would keep in touch with Hasina Safi, the former Women's Minister of Afghanistan, now a refugee in this country, having fled as the Taliban took control.

Hasina will be joining me shortly. And the story of a new comb, all to come. But as world leaders gather for COP26 in Glasgow, the climate change conference, the Prime Minister says the world is at one minute to midnight, having run down the clock on waiting to combat climate change. To give us a feel of what's happening up there, I am joined by the BBC's political editor, Laura Koonsberg, of course, in Glasgow. Laura, hello. I'm hoping we can pull up your line.

She's just dropped off. I will go back to Laura to talk to her. In the meantime, some of the messages already coming in with response to this, I have absolutely no faith leaders will deliver on climate change, says one message here, no name on it. Perhaps you're already, as it's being termed, in the flop 26 camp. Some of you saying too early to say that at this point

and keeping some form of optimism alive. We've got another one here saying, me and my wife run a village recycling programme that collects things like crisp packets, biscuit wrappers, toothbrushes, to name a few. But it's frustrating because it shouldn't be down to the individual. Governments should be building more recycling plants,

harvesting more rainwater and investing more money in innovation. That's from George. Good morning to you. Keep your messages coming in about what you're doing and also where you're at with this as we're in the beginning stages

of this global climate change, we're hoping. Laura is back on the line, our political editor, Laura Koonsberg. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. And I could hear some of those messages coming in. It's really interesting to ponder how people are going to react to this massive, massive, massive event. I can't even begin to try to explain how huge this event is I'm just sitting on one side of the river glides overlooking this kind of sea of giant white marquees thousands of people from all over the world arriving in Glasgow this morning some of them perhaps ourselves included queuing up for rather a long time to get into it but it is a huge event i was

saying in my introduction i'm not quite sure how how much you were able to hear but in terms of the sentiment studies do show women have been consistently shown to care more in some studies around climate change let's not say men don't but in terms of their response and changing of behaviors but we also are getting this sentiment coming through that people do not necessarily have faith that this event will be the thing to change things. Laura, I'm so sorry. And I'm so sorry to you, our listeners. The line there, for some reason,

proving very difficult from Glasgow. That's where Laura Koonsberg is. If we can get her back, our political editor, I will try to do so. But I did also say I'd be joined by Lily Cole, who's in Glasgow. I hope the line will be better. Of course, most famous for being a supermodel,

making her first appearance on the cover of Vogue, age 16. But catwalks and fashion shoots do not dominate her life anymore. She's also an actor, a filmmaker, an entrepreneur, a podcast host and an environmental activist. And last year, she published a book about the climate crisis and solutions to global challenges. She now lives in Portugal with her family and young daughter,

but is in Glasgow. I'm going to start by asking, because I was looking at your Instagram earlier, Lily, how was the journey there? Have you had some issues with the trains? Well spotted, yeah. We had a nearly five-hour delay on the trains yesterday. And it was pretty crazy also because it was it

was just very ironic because we were on an electric train and all the diesel trains were just shooting past by us and it turned out that because of the trees on the lines that the electricity had to be turned off um it just felt like some painful irony well there you go painful ironies and and things probably bringing bringing to mind all sorts i mean there will be some by the way and i've seen a couple of messages uh to this effect saying couldn't it have all just been on on zoom after the 18 months we've had instead of everybody traveling towards one place i mean i get that and i think that zoom's wonderful for most most kind of dealings with now meetings nowadays i think a lot of the work life can consistently change with Zoom

I do think an event like this is so important and I wouldn't underestimate the importance of actually bringing people together for example tonight I'm hosting an event with eight different indigenous leaders who'll be speaking and I just don't know that their message and the importance of the of the message they can carry would have the same effect if it was done through Zoom. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't underestimate actually the importance and power of human connection. And seeing each other and being able to talk face to face. I know that you mentioned that particular panel

to my colleagues on the Today programme earlier, but I know that broadly and broadly speaking in terms of what you've been looking at with your work for the book, which I know took a number of years to put together. You talk in the book about optimism. In fact, it's called Who Cares Wins? Reasons for Optimism in Our Changing World. What are you optimistic about at the start of this sort of conference? Good question. I mean, optimism I write about because I see it as a choice. It doesn't mean that I believe that things are going to work out fine. But I believe we have the power and the agency to sort of create the future that we want.

So for me, it's a very kind of proactive reaction to what's going on because the data in the situation is terrifying. And so in terms of this conference, I'm not wildly optimistic in the situation we're in. But I do think there are so many solutions, policies, technologies, value systems, wisdoms that we can tap into to find a way through. And only by focusing on solutions will we actually overcome the obstacles we need to. I know you interviewed a number of scientists, entrepreneurs, a whole range of people. Was there one particular, I know there's not one solution here, but was there a particular one that you have kept in your mind going to Glasgow this week around what you actually want to hear politicians commit to? Because I have to say, looking at the sentiment here, you know, a lot

of people, they want to be hopeful. Perhaps they don't feel it necessarily in our political leaders for a range of reasons. But they're also saying if we don't do it now at this sort of opportunity at this moment, to your point about meeting, you know, when. But was there something that you think more people should be talking about and tuning into? I mean, a lot of my book is focused on what we as individuals can do in a kind of very citizens grassroots aspect. I think what I'm looking to more this week with COP is the political dimension. And I think that is essential because it's way too hard right now for ordinary citizens to make, you know, enough change to solve this crisis. And I think that's part of the reason that people feel so frustrated and angry, because it feels a bit hopeless. You know,

it feels like it's expensive and it's difficult to make sustainable choices choices and the information is confusing and we don't feel like we're getting the political support we need well actually you addressed that in one of the episodes of your podcast is it is it all about um wealthier people being able to do this is it a wealthy person's game is this a wealthy person's game i think not completely because one of the most sustainable things you can do is just buy less and consume less and simplify. And that's obviously not. And, you know, being vegan is not more expensive. So there are there are exceptions to that, but certainly more sustainable products often cost more. And that is a that is a flaw in our economy. That shouldn't be on consumers to have enough money and have enough time to make those extra efforts to buy things that are not destroying the planet,

that are not cutting down the rainforest, that are not exploiting people and supply chains. And that's where I think the political equation is so essential to make it easier for people to live sustainably, to just live their lives basically without accidentally kind of killing their children's future. Yes. I mean, the other thing to say, though, is some of the optimism that people are feeling or want to feel is around the fact that the UK has been at the forefront of putting targets into law to hold ourselves accountable. The Climate Change Act in 2008, the UK was the first country to put into law legally binding emissions targets, which have been updated. The first time the UK has incorporated shipping and aviation emissions into our targets from April this year. But of course, people at Pains to point out last week about fuel,

excuse me, duty cuts to domestic flights in the budget. So there's a whole range of reaction politically in the UK to it. But what I wanted to ask you about was your industry, as it was fashion, is predicated on the model of buying more. I mean, that is what the business model is. And if you were to look at the fashion industry itself as a whole, it's not on course to cut emissions. For sure. I don't think that's specific just to the fashion industry. I think that's the kind of nature of capitalism right now and planned obsolescence that a lot of our business models are running on the basis that people will buy a new phone next year,

will buy a new dress next year, will buy a new this and a new that. And that needs to change. So we do need more circular business models across all industries. In terms of the political dimension, I think it's important to note, I mean, I heard you talking about Greta Thunberg yesterday. I don't know if you saw the article she wrote a week or so ago where she kind of accused the UK government of what she calls creative carbon accounting. And I really agree with her sentiment that transparency is so essential right now. And I think the UK have been doing a good job.

And I think there's a lot to kind of congratulate the UK government on, you know, kind of being leaders in many ways. But there's also a bit of greenwashing going on, as there has been with companies, too. And the way that the numbers are counted don't necessarily reflect, for example, you know, the fact that most of our manufacturing now is done abroad. And then we don't account for that in our in our um in our footprint um international aviation historically um so greta's argument was that when the uk government say that we've cut emissions by 40 percent in the last since 1990 it's actually closer to 11 to 15 percent um and my my position would be that it's really important that we say it like it is um both good and bad so that everyone has a really clear understanding of where we're at, of what success looks like,

of what our challenges still are. Well, we'll be going into more detail tomorrow on a particular panel I'll tell everyone about very shortly, but also with the former Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change around those elements of transparency and what's been called greenwashing. Saying it how it is, you didn't have to go into this area. You didn't have to put your head above the parapet.

And I know you actually had reservations about doing so before putting the book out. Why did you go forward with it and what were your reservations? Well, my reservations was that it's I know I'm a hypocrite. Everyone's a hypocrite, you know, and I write a line in the book, how much hypocrisy is too much hypocrisy, because it's almost impossible to kind of exist in our system without, unless you go completely off grid, without feeling complicit in the problem. put myself out there and and you know um try and speak about issues that are so complex and that i feel kind of complicit in at the same time i did it because i think it's essential i think it's the kind of the biggest kind of crisis our humanity's ever faced and it's an existential threat to our future i mean i talk with a lot of climate scientists i've talked with a lot of youth activists the seriousness of the situation cannot be underestimated and so i decided to sort of

not you know not listen to fear and just do what I felt I could do and also I think I have quite a unique position in terms of access you know the privilege of meeting different people the privilege of having access to people I can interview for the book and the podcast and it felt you know useful to try and share that. And yet at the same time in August, you put up these two photos of you on Instagram wearing a blue burqa when you were promoting your book with the quote, let's embrace diversity on every level, biodiversity, cultural diversity, diversity of thinking, diversity of voices, diversity of ideas. It happened to be at the same time the

Taliban was retaking Afghanistan and you took down that post and apologised. I wondered if you wanted to say what you had learned from that experience and apologised. I wondered if you wanted to say what you had learned from that experience and what sort of provoked that in the first place? Well, I stand by my quote, what I wrote about diversity and all types of diversity. I wholeheartedly stand by that. And it's a big ethos of everything I do is a need to respect different cultures and learn from different cultures. You know, hence even tonight speaking to indigenous cultures and seeing what we can learn from different cultures. You know, hence even tonight, speaking to indigenous cultures and seeing what we can learn from them.

In terms of the image, I think what I really learned is don't post on social media when you're not reading the news because I've been away for two weeks taking a really kind of intentional break from social media, from the media, spending time with my daughter.

And I knew that the book was coming out. So I was creating posts around it. I actually, I mean, I don't blame her was coming out so I was creating posts around it I actually I mean I don't blame her at all but I'd showed a bunch of pictures of myself to my daughter to say oh which one should I put with it and she'd chosen that image of course because of the naivety of a child who didn't have any understanding of context I have lots of Muslim friends and I've always felt quite sympathetic to the issues that they've faced and the kind of rising Islamophobia in our culture

and that was the intention with which I put it together. I hadn't looked at the media and that was my massive mistake and that's why I immediately apologised and took it down and have spent more time I think trying to understand the particular issues around that particular garment because I don't think I was educated enough at the time that I posted it and so I've been meeting people from Afghanistan talking to my Muslim friends learning more um so yeah I think I learned a lot um but I also would add that I think that I think it's useful that the public can kind of um backlash for want of a better word in the sense of that's how we learn right and

grow as a culture um but i also think it's really important that we push against kind of violent language online did you get did you get violent language and abuse yeah i did i didn't engage in it too much to see it all but i saw enough hostility and violence that i kind of checked out and i've seen that happen to many other people before. We're all very familiar with that. I, you know, I've spoken out in the past before this incident about kind of not agreeing with that culture online. And I think it's a very dangerous culture, because I think that what it ultimately does is it silences people, it makes people afraid to get something wrong. And also just violence is not an aggressive an aggression is never I don't think a useful way to solve issues and ironically it's everything I was sort of trying to speak speak kind of against in

that post and with my book is actually the need for a diversity of ideas the need for a diversity of opinions but it's when we I think I think it was just the particular that that moment of course of of talking about it and diversity and and bringing i suppose for some people you know feminism into it at that time of burka not being a choice for many in afghanistan yeah no i completely understand why it was misunderstood i wanted to sorry carry on on the point of feminism i um i wrote a chapter of my book on on gender equality and the relationship between gender equality and the environment. It's something that I really care very passionately about.

And I heard you just before I came on talking to that. I mean, I don't know if you're aware, but there was a big campaign last year, She Changes Climate, that looked at the makeup of the UK COP leadership team. And it was originally published to be 100% male it was later correct or corrected or updated to be 25% female I think the latest I saw was there's two women and 10 men on the on the top positions so there's still a kind of imbalance there and I think that's also important to call attention to because there are so many um examples that we have in data of um how women have for whatever reason um shown more kind of agency um around taking environmental action and there's lots of data you can you can use to to see that um and also that women are increasingly adversely

affected around the world by climate crisis and again there's lots of data that you can use to show that indeed and we we have talked about, especially that latter point at great length. We've also, I've also tried with a government minister to get the exact numbers of women around that top table. And that is a point that's come in from several of our listeners. So again, something I hope to follow up on. And we'll be in plain sight over the few days that we have to see who's there doing what and saying what. And it's a very good point to keep pressing on. And indeed, our discussion tomorrow,

which I'll come to in just a moment, will speak to some of that. I just wanted to ask about action, anger, and being a campaigner to bring our conversation to a close. I know in the past, you signed a letter in support of Extinction Rebellion. Of course, what's being called an offshoot of that,

you tell me better if it is or isn't, but Insulate Britain activists have been in the news, not least on Friday after protesters walked into oncoming traffic on the M25. I just wanted to know what you make of the way that's developing. Do you think it's doing the cause that you care so much about good or harm it's a very good question i mean i'm not familiar at all with interlake britain i don't know anybody in that group um i agree with uh what gretta said when you quoted her about the need for some friction um that you know we look at his we look at historical change no big change has happened without there being friction and people willing to kind of challenge the seders quo at the same time it's

important it's not violent and my concern i guess with some of the ways that this is playing out is that it's feeding more division and i feel like the last thing we need is division um and we also i think needs everyone to feel like an environmentalist, not see environmentalists as a kind of extreme subset that it's hard to relate to. Well, it'd be quite terrifying to be in a car driving down the M25 and having people to walk towards you. It's not the activism I choose. Fine. I just wanted to ask, because I think that's in the air as well. How do you respond? What do you do? And your point about it being left to individuals to change the way they travel or whatever, that's not necessarily going to shift the dial. So should they join a protest? Should they sign things? What should you do? And your point about it being left to individuals to change the way they travel or whatever, that's not necessarily going to shift the dial. So should they join a protest? Should they sign things? What should they do?

I just wanted to get your take on that, Lily Cole. Thank you very much. Good luck with your panel this evening at COP26. Now you're there, safely there. And thank you very much for talking to us today. I mentioned that panel tomorrow that we're going to talk about and talk with those women because we're going to go back to where these current COP discussions really got started, Paris in 2015. That climate conference, COP21, managed the almost unimaginable feat of getting 196 countries to agree on limiting emissions and keeping global average temperature increases under one and a half degrees Celsius. Many of the key players behind Paris' success were women, and I'm going to unite three of them on tomorrow's programme. I'll be joined by Laurence Tubiana, France's climate change ambassador and special representative for COP21, who many recognise as the main architect of the Paris Agreement.

Amber Rudd, Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change at the time of Paris and the then leader of the UK's COP21 negotiating team. And Jennifer Morgan, one of a group of women who brought the idea of net zero to the global stage during Paris, now head of Greenpeace International and a lot to say on how countries and governments have done with their net zero commitment since. And you have a lot to say to us this morning. Thank you very much for these messages. Why can't world leaders come readily to solutions for the climate crisis in the same way they do when they decide the actions to take in response to the pandemic? For instance, social distancing, mask wearing, isolation, health passports. Another one. I sit here as a resident of Glasgow this morning in the hope that we do make some progress, says Libby at COP26.

But it seems to me when I try and make small changes close to home, such as recycling or cycling to work, our infrastructure simply doesn't support it. It's well known Glasgow City Council has a bad recycling track record, or she's saying here the worst in the UK. I'd have to corroborate that, but that's your experience as a resident. It does seem that a lot of the basics of going greener

has been overlooked in the clamour to make our city camera ready for the event. In many ways, this encapsulates a lot of the basics of going greener has been overlooked in the clamour to make our city camera ready for the event. In many ways, this encapsulates a lot of the contradictions in our fight to save the planet. Still, I think we must remain hopeful for the sake of those who are powerless to make changes and yet are on the front line of climate change. Very sobering to remember that indeed. Libby, thank you for that message. I'll be coming back to more of your messages shortly. But I did promise you an update with Hasina Safi, the former women's minister of Afghanistan, because ever since Afghanistan fell to the Taliban in August, we've been keeping across what's happening to women and girls there

and also those who have fled and were able to flee. On Friday's programme, the judges, the women judges who've had to flee and are now keeping safe in Greece, we heard their stories. A few weeks ago, we marked the amount of time teenage girls have not been able to go to school. And in September, I spoke to the woman, as I say, who was the women's minister in Afghanistan, Hasina Safi. We heard some of her story of how she got here. And she's now a refugee living in a hotel with her family in the UK. Hasina, good morning.

Good morning, Emma. Thank you very much for BBC Women's Hour to talk because I believe on women's solidarity all the time. Thank you for the opportunity. No, thank you for coming back. I wanted to start by asking, how have you been? Thank you very much. I'm, as usual, as women struggle all their life.

So Afghan women are also a part of the women movement around the world. Presently, I'm struggling with my inner soul as a mother, personally and also professionally as a women activist, because I'm also back in contact with so many who are there. So at least I'm alive. I have energy and I'm trying to collect myself and strengthen my soul because there are many, many around us and back there who are waiting for me and for all the other women such as yourself. Within any capacity, we can give them hope. We can help them. So that is what presently I am doing. It is worth mentioning to thank all the women around the world for the solidarity for all Afghan women. And for myself specifically here, I would like to take

this platform and thank all my friends who have and are still in contact and supporting me. Yes, and I think that's the feeling, you know, what can you do? How can you help? But your situation, I just wanted to catch up on it if I could, and then we'll come to the women that you're in touch with still in Afghanistan. Are you still in a hotel? I am in a hotel. I am in a hotel in Kingston. And how is that?

Because we've read reports only in the last couple of weeks of people like yourself who are, of course, very grateful to be here, but have struggled with staying in a hotel and how difficult it is very easy to respond because when you are thinking about life and death, when you are thinking about yourself being targeted and then you think about a hotel, so this is a blessing. And definitely I consider it because I choose to live. So I am here. Definitely, as we all know, a home is a home. But I think the services which the hotel is providing,

and also there is a council in this area. They are very supportive and helpful. The health team, they are coming twice in a week and they are checking and helping with the health. The hotel where I'm staying, I think it's more than 250 people, around 300. So in relation to that, I think they are trying their best to provide as what assignment is given to them. And we are all waiting for the accommodation presently, as I indicated previously, for our future and also work. And are you, is there a community of you?

Are you bonding? Do you think, did you know other people who were staying there? What's it like day to day? No, it's not the people who i knew but i knew them now because we stayed almost for it's like two months now because they are most of them are the people who have been with british projects and things like that so I had been a part of these people before being the minister because I have worked for British projects a lot. But in here, because they all have women, daughters, so some of them really didn't know. But I was, as a woman, interested to sit with

them to listen to their stories and to really see how at this time also we could help each other so experience is always strengthening it's i was going to say do you know do any of you know when you might be able to leave the hotel have you been given any indication yet no no one knows no one knows that because we are in contact with the council here and the council is here every day like till 4, 5, 30 till 6 o'clock. The council people are here for the day-to-day issues but I think they are asking people about the number of families but specifically they don't know about the date and also the accommodation. Yeah it's just very, I suppose, to make sure as well as keeping an eye, a strong eye on what's going on in Afghanistan, we hear how people are here

and what's been going on with you. This is the second time you've been a refugee, which we spoke about last time. And I know, which I also think is a really important point to bring up, that you are very determined to go back to Afghanistan. Definitely. Like, you feel for your country. And it's a feeling in your blood. I'm sorry, do you want to take a moment?

No, it's OK. I know that you've got people that you're thinking about and you want to be back there, I'm sure, in so many ways. Yes, it's difficult because we really struggled hard on the nation building, especially women in participation, developing. And also we really, in the last 20 years, we really tried to take up the burden, especially women,

the burden for our society, for our community, and also for our nation. But we will still keep on, keep doing it. Because the more we fall down, the more we strengthen. Yeah. So we will keep on struggling. Do you have that hope that you can? Oh, definitely.

Because as a human being, always, always there is a hope. Nothing is impossible. Definitely we have challenges, but there is always a hope. Once you have a vision, once you have a firm feeling that this is where you want to go, there is always hope. The day when you are hopeless, the world stops. So there is always, always hope, hope, hope. Hope for development, hope for humanity, and hope for continuity. There is a strong hope.

I know it will have challenges. There will be problems. There will be problems. There will be bumps. But I think as Afghans, we have had a lot of that. And we still are hopeful that our country will hopefully stand one day. This is a part of the struggle. The hope, of course, though, is so difficult to keep alive. I imagine if you are there and if you are either one of the girls who can't go to school or a parent of somebody, a girl who can't go to school or one of the women that you worked alongside in the government and you're not able to hold those positions. Do you have faith on the school front that girls will be able to go back soon, secondary school girls?

In two provinces it has started. I think it's in Mazar and Georgian. We are hoping that the girls have been very, very courageous to stand for their education. And we are trying with all the partners who are involved with the caretaker government now to talk to them and to tell them what is the logical, what is the religious, what is the reason that they are stopping girls from school. So because which religion, there is no religion which is stopping girls or women from school so there is a hope but within that hope the girls are losing their time they are losing their time because already it has been two months that they haven't been to school, the higher education as well. The universities are also closed. So they are losing time. But we are hoping we are in contact with the present allies who are in contact with the

caretaker government to talk and to ask them what is the logical reason behind stopping girls from school, from higher education, from secondary education. Hasina, thank you so much for talking to me and to all of our listeners again today. I hope we can keep in touch because it's so useful to hear how you are doing as a window, if you like, into other refugees here again, but also what you're hearing from back home as well and and we wish you all the best thank you very much i think the opportunity that you are giving to the women and through this program it's uh it's also a window of hope they see they know because those who are in that situation, they understand each other.

And this is a clear message for them that no matter in whatever situation we are, we will keep up our struggle. Thank you very much. Hasina Safi, thank you. A message that just came in from Sarah saying, such a brave and strong person with regards to Hasina. I wish her all the luck in the world. Your message is still coming in about faith and hope and politics with reference to COP26 and the environment and sustainability. I'll come back to those if I can shortly. But talking about women and a female lens on the world, what happens when you change that lens with different experiences

and change who's becoming an engineer. For many black women and girls, combing their Afro hair can be a painful and long, arduous task. But a research engineer has now designed a comb that she hopes makes the job of conditioning it less painful and time consuming. Dr. Yumna Muhammad first came up with the idea while working as a nanny to support herself while studying for her PhD. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you so much for having me on the programme. Thank you for coming on. And we always want to hear from people with fresh ideas of how to do things.

And this is a fresh idea. And I know I mentioned that about working as a nanny, but tell us more what inspired your creation. Oh, it's funny how things come in in life so um i was a living nanny look i'm looking after this beautiful girl called hazel she had this uh huge voluptuous hair uh look at think a bit of somebody like diana ross here so uh every single sunday when her mom wash her hair and conditioning the process of conditioning take her ages because of the texture of the hair after her hair is difficult to detangle. So you have to part the hair into sections, apply the conditioner and then detangle. And that really was a very long but also painful process.

So Hazel would cry and it really got to me And I wanted to change that experience. And for many different reasons, to start with is that my personal experience coming from a very, from an African background, every Sunday, my mom will sit me and my four sisters and actually do my hair. So for me, hair care is actually that moment of connecting with different women, you know, of my family giggling. And so I wanted to remove that experience so she can only remember as hair care as the time that she actually connected with her mom. And also that pain actually affect our relationship with our hair. Because when something is so frustrating to deal with, you end up despising it. And on the top of it, as a young girl growing up in a society where she's not necessarily represented, that really affected her self-image regarding her

hair being curly compared to, you know, what she always used to cry wanting to have her hair straight and in a ponytail. So all of the different things really motivated me to invent the comb and change her hair care experience and her relationship with her hair of course. Yes because if you think of something negatively you don't want to then do it and it all gets worse almost in a bit of a cycle but you actually created this comb can you tell us about what it is or how it works and describe it because we're on radio I always like to say you want to help me with the pictures here. So think about it as it's like a comb that has a mechanism that enables you to open it and then you put your conditioner in it. And then as you detangle, because the conditioner is there, so the slip of the conditioner gets in contact locally with where the hair is and where the tangles are. And it just makes that process of detangling much more easily.

So it's something that you can use it for conditioning, applying a deep conditioner, but also applying things like a leave-in conditioner or even your mousse to be able to curl your hair. So it has a variety of different applications. So think about this simply as a comb that applies at the same time that it detangles. And you had that amazing thing that creators and creatives and innovators have.

When you were creating the prototype, people came to try it. Women came to try it and they wanted to buy it, I understand, even though it looked pretty ugly at that point. Exactly. So I took very much. I'm very happy that I had that scientific insight as an engineer. So I first wondered like, okay, is it me being lazy or this will actually add value? So I just work with different institution and actually create a 3D printed, like just think about the most scientific looking type of tool, like completely gray. And I invited 20 women across Swansea to come and try it for 30 minutes. And it was quite a wake up call because the feedback, there was lots of joy, but at the

same time fear because some of the women's like, oh my God, this is going to change my daughter hair care experience. A daughter actually tried it on her mom, using it on her mom. And just like by the time that a little girl of eight years old can do her mom's hair like wow and then some women were asking me like can I buy it and I was just like I'm sorry I only have one but I think the whole thing is like you know when you realize that you actually stumble on a great idea because when I asked them at the end I did a survey about asking them, would you be interested into buying this?

The whole 20 women say yes. So when there is a possibility of success, there is always that fear of failure. And I'm just like, you know, you cannot mess this one up because it's actually a great idea. So it's kind of interesting how the whole thing come up. So from there on, I had the motivation to keep on pushing with the idea.

And you have in receipt of, is it more than £60,000 from the Royal Academy of the Engineering Fellowship? Exactly, exactly. It was the most amazing experience, literally. So the Royal Academy of Engineering offer every single year to 15 academics 60k to be able to bring their product to market. It covers your salary. So it's not like you're working two times. You can completely focus on the business and then 15k that goes toward the business regarding paying different things. So the first time I applied, I failed and I just thought it's never going to work. This project is so niche, you know. So but then a friend of mine told me to apply again. And then I got lucky and I was accepted.

And so literally from last year, August to the end of this month, I was an enterprise fellow. So for the whole year, it's been fantastic because I got training from the academy about basic business knowledge, like branding, marketing, financial, raising funds and also mentoring scheme from not only the academy. You have within the academy, you have a mentor, but also within the program works in collaboration with universities. So I was in Southwest University and so So I was in South West University. And so I had a mentor within South University. So it allowed me to have that support, like 360,

from my local entrepreneurship ecosystem to actually being linked to the academy. And when is this available? I mean, there'll be some people thinking, you know, definitely want to hear the story of it, but I just want to maybe get on board. I mean, is it going to come out next year? So that's the whole aim next year. That is the aim. that perhaps they can go into that field that didn't go before, and also especially women. It's a different, you know, having different lenses on the world leads to different solutions, doesn't it?

And coming up with different tools and different ideas. Exactly, exactly. I think diversity has a huge part to play within innovation in the sense that this is a problem that women, like for centuries and centuries have been actually facing and yet there is no solution. But also when you just look at the hair care industry, like for many years, big brands actually didn't use to cut for women with afro-textured hair. And so I think that lack of diversity within sciences, within engineering. We know some of the research

regarding some of the innovation, actually not necessarily catering very well for women, but people from diversity. So it's really very important to actually diversify the field of STEM and engineering to be able to have all of those different insight of idea and creativity that really can bring the wealth in our community, but also the value into what we're creating as innovators into people's lives. Well, congratulations on keeping going and applying and getting the funding, but also having such a successful time with your prototype and people wanting to buy it no matter how it looked. So good luck for the next stage. Dr. Yumna Mohamed there talking about her new comb and the process to get there

and the story that inspired it. Lovely to talk to you. Thank you very much. Now, many schools going back today and more than 800 secondary schools in England will be visited by health teams from today to offer the coronavirus vaccine to children aged 12 to 15. So far, more than 600,000 children have been vaccinated since the rollout was extended last month. But the Health Secretary, Sajid Javid, wants to increase the number getting the jab as a way to, quote, keep children in the classroom. Many parents are conflicted about whether or not their child should even get the vaccine. And there have been protests outside many schools. The Association of Schools and College Leaders say eight out of 10 schools have been affected and Labour is now calling for the establishment of exclusion zones to stop, quote,

the spread of misinformation. I'm joined now by the Shadow Education Secretary, Kate Green. Good morning. Good morning. Thanks for joining us today. Just to give a picture of these protests, if people haven't seen them or aren't aware of them? What sort of protests are we seeing at some schools? So at some schools, some discouragement to parents and to children to take their children in to be vaccinated and some abusive or certainly unpleasant language towards school staff who, of course, aren't responsible for the vaccination programme in any event. Disinformation, which I think is

really concerning, especially outside of school, where the whole point is to make sure that we educate children with accurate information. I wouldn't want to suggest that all of these protests are violent or meant to be intimidating, but I do think they're inappropriate outside school gates, really because children and young people are going to be seeing and hearing these people. And I think that's just not appropriate when we want young people to be educated to have accurate information and for parents to know that their children can get in and out of school safely. An issue, it seems, also across the country as well? Yes, we're hearing reports from different parts of the country. And the ASCO figures that you just quoted suggest,

you know, that it is quite widespread, which is concerning. OK, and you're proposing what? I said an exclusion zone, but what does that mean? Well, yes, we're not saying an automatic exclusion zone around every school. We already have the opportunity for temporary exclusion zones to be put in place or the police to move people on. But it's very, very slow to get those measures arranged and sometimes the police will say well if there isn't actual harassment they can't act. So what we are suggesting is as a COVID emergency measure local authorities would if they wanted to be able to apply for a temporary zone around the school gate where protests wouldn't be able to take place and the police would be able to act more swiftly if people tried to do those hold those i don't want to see these being necessary

i really hope that people who who have strong views about vaccinations would understand that outside the school gate is the wrong place to be and that we i don't sorry how does it work again so we've heard discussion of this and labour very much we're behind this as well uh in support of this there was also you know other were behind this as well in support of this. There was also other people across parties who were in support of buffer zones around abortion clinics. But how will it actually work around schools? Well, this is different from the situation around abortion clinics where they're looking for permanent legislation, I think, to permanently prevent people demonstrating outside the abortion clinics. This would be a temporary thing, a COVID measure. A local authority could apply to have a particular area designated as a public

space subject to a protection order where people wouldn't be able to demonstrate. And that would be for a fixed period of time. It wouldn't be an indefinite order. It wouldn't be an indefinite exclusion zone. It would be very much for a temporary COVID emergency situation. Is that because you don't think schools are doing a good enough job and the police aren't doing a good enough job of ensuring that pupils can go in safely? Well, as I say, the police don't always have the powers that they need at the moment. If, for example, there isn't actual harassment taking place. And for schools, of course, it's not their job to be outside policing the school gate, particularly when the protests are about something that school staff are not responsible for. You know, they're not delivering the vaccine programme.

So I think it's not a criticism at all of either schools or indeed of the police. It's simply that we need some measures in some cases, as I say, I hope not very often, which would mean that if things do become particularly difficult, children and families feel that something really inappropriate and uncomfortable is going on, that there is the opportunity to act and keep these people away from the school gates. And it would be police manning these? The local authority would apply for the order. It would then be subject to one of these public space protection orders. And that would mean if there was a breach, then the police would potentially be able to act. That all sounds very potential and time consuming and also potentially...

Actually a lot less time consuming than what we've got at the moment. And this is the main reason we're proposing this, that the moment it can take a very long time between one of these protests beginning to cause problems and anyone being able to take any action. So what we're talking about is something that could be implemented very speedily, very much in this COVID emergency situation. But the police would potentially man. If it's not police, who mans them? Well, you know, they don't need to come and staff these. It's simply an area where people would know there was a prohibition order in place. And I would expect the vast majority of people would comply with that.

How would they know? Would there be signs? There would be information published and the local authority would make that information available. How? I have to admit, I don't have a straightforward answer for that. This is your proposal? Well, yes. OK, so I'm sorry not to have all the detailed implementation worked out school by school, because it will be different in different kinds of community. No, no, I accept that. I'm just trying to picture,

I live in an area, there's now an exclusion zone around a school if the Labour Party's policy gets through. How will I know? Well, I'm sorry not to be able to give you a very clear answer on that perhaps that's a bit of policy we have to I admit go and work out in detail but these orders are not uncommon they already can be put in place for all sorts of public sector security issues and people become notified and I think we would just have to make sure that information was very very widely available including I guess schools would want to make sure that information was very, very widely available, including, I guess, schools would want to make sure that parents were aware. The local authority, having applied for and got one of these orders, would want to make sure that that was very publicly known on its social media and other channels. I don't think we would see this as being different from when you have other kinds of arrangements.

I just don't think I just I just can't presume, myself included, that anybody knows about the other arrangements of which you speak. And the fact that it's your proposal and you don't know how it's necessarily going to work doesn't necessarily inspire confidence, does it? Well, I'm sorry you feel that. No, no, I'm questioning it. You know, I'm literally going back to principles of journalism,

who, what, where, why and when. You know, like the questions of how will it work and how much will it cost and how will it be implemented? And you as the shadow education secretary, you don't know. Well, there's one thing I don't know and many things I do know. First of all, I know that it is inappropriate for people to be spreading misinformation and causing anxiety at school gates. Secondly, I know that these orders can be effective, but currently are too slow. And therefore, we need to make sure that we've got something that can operate more swiftly. And thirdly, I know that you're absolutely right to say that it's really important that everybody understands when one of these orders is in place.

And I think it can be something very helpful to think about there. But it is not intended that you have to go around policing these spaces proactively. I think what we are imagining, envisaging, is that people would know that this was an area they could not come to. And, you know, I'm not saying there's lots of these all over the country. No, no, I recognise it's as and when. Just Kate Green, final question. Will that be new legislation that you need? We would need to have one quick piece of legislation now to do this. But we've had repeated COVID emergency legislation passed through very quickly in Parliament.

So if the government wanted to do this, they could make the time to do so. Thank you very much, Kate Green, Shadow Education Secretary. Government statement says it's never acceptable for anyone to pressurise or intimidate pupils, teachers or the wider school community. Protesters engaging in this type of behaviour should immediately bring to an end. The police and local authorities have a range of powers

available for managing protests at a local level and can be used where appropriate. We have provided guidance to all schools to manage vaccination-related protests in liaison with police, NHS and their local authority. Any school that needs additional support should contact their regional school commissioner team. Well, I'm going to contact the BBC's political editor, Laura Koonsberg, who's at COP26 in Glasgow. Our line completely failed earlier. You were setting such a good scene for us about how huge this was.

I have to say, throughout the whole programme, a lot of people getting in touch saying they want to have hope, but they're feeling a bit hopeless. What is the atmosphere like, Laura? Well, this morning, it's a bit chaotic, I've got to say. This is such a massive event and the logistics are proving a little bit challenging. There are, you know, hundreds and hundreds, probably thousands of people actually queuing at the main entrance trying to get in. But, you know, forget about all the logistics for a while. There is no question that the government sees the next fortnight as a very big mountain to climb if they are to get what they want, which is to keep the possibility of limiting temperature rises of the planet to one and a half degrees Celsius. Right. It's going to be hard work. It's going to take an awful lot to get there. There's still some big countries, China, Russia, holding out on the kind of commitment that you'd need to make that happen. That said, that doesn't mean that there isn't going to be any progress at all.

Number one, because we just don't know what's going to happen in the next fortnight. And number two, because there are all sorts of commitments and promises that are already being made. And behind the scenes, the COP organisers are hopeful that there will be more to come, whether that's announcing a big programme of planting millions and millions of trees around the world, that's something that's in the offing that might be announced tomorrow, or whether it's some more countries putting money in their pockets to reach the $100 billion pot that is meant to be being made available for poorer countries to turn their economies green, which of course is expensive, difficult, time-consuming.

And if you are a country that's got all sorts of problems and issues, it's not something you necessarily want to put at the top of the priority list. Is Boris Johnson going into this hopeful in the sense of what happened at the G20 this weekend and not being able to get that commitment that he wanted on coal? I think that the view in government, I think the Prime Minister's view, and I think actually he was quite obviously frustrated yesterday at the end of the summit in Rome that he didn't get as much as he wanted. But I think the view is that it was a decent step forward from the G20. It wasn't a giant leap forward for mankind. And they definitely didn't manage to push actually said to me they thought they got slightly more out of the G20

than they had expected. And those, when we talk about the G20, those are the wealthiest, most powerful countries in the world. And Boris Johnson eyeballed them all over the weekend in Italy and said, right, this is the moment. We all have to do something here further

and on top of what we've already agreed to do. And he had some pretty bleak language yesterday. I mean, he was talking about if Glasgow fails, it all fails. We're at one minute to midnight. This is the last opportunity that the world has to do something about it. The truth of that is, of course, that COP is one moment. It is not the be-all and end-all in terms of actions that business, the government, that all of us can take in order to try to slow down the changes that are happening to the planet. But it is an enormous political and diplomatic moment to really accelerate the kinds of actions that have been taken.

So in a funny way, COP is hugely significant, this Conference of the Parties, which, by the way, is what it actually stands for, which I'm not sure all the people banding it around at the moment even know what all of these acronyms mean. It is a very significant moment and a very significant opportunity. But if the diplomacy this week fails, which is quite possible because of all the complexities, all the rivalries, all the costs, all the different things that are going on here, that doesn't mean that governments around the world are suddenly going to stop making an effort or the efforts that haven't already been made are meaningless. So it's one of these sort of strange things. Above all else, I would just say that on day one, Monday,

it is far too early to judge what the outcome is going to be. But Laura, that's why we get you. Laura Koonsberg, I've got to leave it there. But thank you so much for scene setting for us on day one of COP26. We're keeping with this tomorrow. The BBC's political editor, thank you to you for all of your comments. A lot of hopeful ones coming in and a lot of less hopeful ones too. We'll keep to grips with this.

Back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. From the makers of the Battersea Poltergeist, a new podcast series for BBC Radio 4, Uncanny. Do you believe in ghosts? No.

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