Woman's Hour - Lionesses' legacy, Sarah Greene, Care leavers, Abortion

Episode Date: August 17, 2023

England are through to the final of the FIFA Women’s World Cup for the first time in history. But while the Lionesses are excelling in Australia and New Zealand, what’s it like for girls playing football back in the UK? Are they feeling the impact of England’s success? Samerah, Charlotte, and Isabelle, teenagers involved in the Football Beyond Borders programme, share their experiences, and Anita speaks to Ceylon Andi Hickman, the charity’s director of external relations, about how to ensure the legacy of the World Cup reaches girls from all backgrounds.A 22 year old woman has denied carrying out an illegal abortion during lockdown. Bethany Cox was accused of two charges on Tuesday in relation to using drugs and poison to end a pregnancy in July 2020. She pleaded not guilty to the charges in court and has been released on bail. Anita Rani speaks to Hannah Al-Othman, a reporter for the Sunday Times who was in court.It's A level results today across the UK for hundreds and thousands of students. The proportion of A or A* grades is 27.2% down from a peak of nearly 45% in the pandemic. That means it is more or less back to where it was in 2019, the last year of exams before COVID. Grainne Hallahan, senior analyst from TES Magazine, looks into how girls performed. In 2023, a survey of 10,000 university students found that only 14 percent of pupils who had been in the care system progressed to higher education by age 19, compared to 47 percent of all other pupils. Anita is joined by Kim Emenike, who was in care as a child and Katharine Sacks-Jones, Chief Executive of the charity, Become, which supports young care leavers to discuss the challenges they face.TV presenter Sarah Greene, most well-known for her work on Blue Peter and Going Live is back on our screens with a brand new BBC 1 quiz show, The Finish Line. She joins Anita Rani to reflect on her career and to tell us all about her new role. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Steve Greenwood00:00 Opener 01:21 Football 20:19 Abortion 27.49 Exam results 36:42 Care leavers Uni 45:58 Sarah Greene

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour. I get to meet one of my favourite Blue Peter presenters today, Sarah Green will be in the studio for a natter and to tell us about being back on our screens with a new quiz show. And the Lionesses of Dunnet, England, are through to the final of the FIFA Women's World Cup. But where will you be watching it?

Are you totally hooked and have major plans for Sunday? I want to hear all about them. Or has the whole thing passed you by? Either way, we would love to hear from you. You can text the programme on 84844. You can email me by going to our website. You can contact us on social media. Or you can send us a WhatsApp note

or even a voice note. It's 03700 100 444 and remember to check the terms and conditions. They can be found on our website as well. And it's A-level results day. What's the situation in your household? How have they done? Is it a morning of celebration

or wiping away tears? How are you coping with the stress of it all? And is university on the horizon? Well, for care leavers, this is a very tricky time. Last year, only 14% went straight to university. And once there, many can struggle with feeling isolated. There can be emotional and financial issues and some will drop out. So I'm going to be discussing what that experience is like for care leavers later in the programme. Remember that text number once again, 84844.

We would love to hear from you on anything we discuss on the programme today. First, as I've just mentioned, England are through to the final of the FIFA Women's World Cup for the first time in history. But while the Lionesses are doing amazing things across the globe in Australia and New Zealand, what's it like for girls and young women playing football back in the UK? Are they feeling the impact of England's success? Well, Football Beyond Borders is a charity which helps

young people from areas of socio-economic disadvantage progress through football. You'll hear from some of the teenagers involved in their programme shortly. But first, I spoke to Ceylon Andy Hickman, who is Director of External Relations at Football Beyond Borders. She spoke to me from Wellington, New Zealand. But first, I got her reaction to the Lionesses' success. Haven't they done well? We have. It has been an absolutely incredible month. And what better way to top it off

than going to our first ever World Cup final. I was there last night in Sydney and it was, yeah, it was actually probably one of the more relaxing experiences I've had this tournament watching England. I never really felt confidence despite being in the minority.

I've never watched a football match in the minority like that before, but it was really, really special and they played incredibly and the vibe was excellent amongst England but it was really, really special and they played incredibly and the vibe was excellent amongst England fans. Oh yeah, come on, give us a sense of the atmosphere because you're the lucky one who's there. It's definitely a lot of pinch me moments, I think,

watching this team do this well. And I think last night was completely surreal. I think what was quite heartbreaking was seeing 75,000 people's uh dreams be shattered in one moment around you as Alessia Russo scored that third goal but you know the minority the people that I was with um are just our dreams were made and it was a really really special evening how are you feeling about Sunday I feel quite relaxed actually and I feel quite confident I think we have a team here who know how to win

and they've just they prepare for every single eventuality and the work will have already started pre last night for preparing to play against Spain I'm sure and I think just with yeah with Serena Vigman at the wheel I think you just you just have an underlying confidence in this team and their ability to perform so yeah I'm just really excited I'm really excited to wrap up an incredible month with a World Cup final around some of my favourite people watching some of my favourite athletes on the pitch. So, yeah, just really excited for it.

So, so, so exciting and so satisfying for the fans as well. Absolutely brilliant. We're all very excited. We'd love to talk to you about Football Beyond Borders, this charity that you're involved in. Tell us what it's about and what its purpose is. We are an education charity. We work with young people who are passionate about football but disengaged in their education. And we do so to support them to gain the skills and the grades that they need for us to make a successful transition to adulthood.

So we're really long term. We're intensive. We start working with young people at year eight, so 12 years old. And we don't stop until they're 16 in year 11, getting their GCSEs. I've taken groups through that journey, groups of girls in Croydon and South London, and I've been with them on GCSE results days. They've got their English and maths GCSEs, which is one of our outcomes that we hold ourselves to um but we use football as a way of kind of getting into their lives and providing a bit of a hook and an excitement and aspirational thing that gets them yeah engaged in our work but out of that comes things like trauma-informed work therapeutic mentoring a social emotional learning curriculum incredible trips and experiences pastoral support

in school home support as well so we sometimes talk about football as being kind of our Trojan horse. It gets us into young people's lives and then all these other things jump out of them, all with the aim of supporting young people who are most or kind of least likely to succeed in school. Statistically, we work with those young people to ensure that they can succeed in school and that they do get those grades and they build those social emotional skills to go on into adulthood. While Samira, Charlotte and Isabel are three teenagers involved with their programme, Woman's Hour producer Hattie Nash went to a training ground in Brixton and heard their experiences.

Hi, my name's Samira. I'm 17 years old. I've been playing football since I was a young girl. I first started playing football as young as I can remember. Going downstairs from my house and playing football pitch with all my neighbours and basically just like being one of the only girls that was there but it was still fun because it was quite a community so but sometimes there was times where I felt like I'm not being noticed or I'm not being like recognised amongst others. Did it always feel like football was for you? Not entirely.

I would get noticed that I could play, but it was like I was noticed and then I'm blocked out. So it wasn't really the case where I felt 100% involved, but I was there, but I was just part background. When did that change? I wasn't really expecting much from Football Beyond Builders and I didn't really have an expectation of what it would be like. But I tried it out and I found out that they really take recognition in me

and that I have talent. I love to play football, especially when I'm being able to be in a team with other people and communicate. And basically just like, we worked hard for this we got these girls in we're strong we run against other teams it's just the best thing smart pay me smart smart smart hi i'm charlotte and i'm 16 years old and i've been playing football since about primary school so if you get play and p and you have to pick our own teams i'd always get the like always be the last to be picked because obviously it was a team of boys the girls wanted to do a different sport and I was one of the only girls on

the football team and I actually wanted to play and then I always be the last to be picked and just kind of really made fun of. So people weren't supportive of you as a girl playing football? No not really they think it's kind of like at the time they thought it was a job obviously like boys play football I've been told in primary school that boys meant to play football girls are not meant to play football and it's just something that you gotta work through over the years and realize that that's not true. Do you think that's changed that attitude now? Honestly I don't not as much as it should it should be changed because obviously the women's world cup is not as recognized as the men's world cup and I just feel like that obviously should change

because women are just as important as males and their sport and their hobbies and what they enjoy should be important. My name is Isabel and I'm 16 years old. I've been playing since I was in year 8, so since I joined FBB. And before then, did you feel like football was for you? I've always been interested in sport, but I never actually had the courage to start playing competitively. I would say because of the judgements that we would get from the boys. But at the same time, I would also think...

I would not think much of it, because why should I care about what others think of me when I want to do what I want to do? They say that it's dead, that girls shouldn't play football. I've even heard that girls should just stay to cooking and cleaning. It's really bad. Boys say all sorts of stuff that will try to put us down but in some hindsight they just can't recognise the fact that some girls are actually better than them and it's a bit heartbreaking for them, I'd be wrong. And what's it like playing in a group of girls? The best vibes, honestly.

The fact that, you know, it's not always 100% serious, so I love that. It's just playing with, like, other people who understand and other people who get me. Just, like, playing with a group of boys, how boys might play amongst boys, it's just, like, girls playing amongst girls, and it's the best vibe, and I'd rather keep it that way as well sometimes.

Like, even if we're a team, and even if, like, girls school together, and some of us may not like each other, we're on the pitch, it's just a different vibe. We're all working together, we're all trying to beat the other team, obviously, we're all competitive, and at the end of the day, we'll sit down,

we have a great talk, and we're all just good good and we're chilling together. So have you guys been following the World Cup? Obviously I'm Jamaican, so I support, I always watch when Jamaica's playing. Sometimes England, but not as much as when I watch, making sure I watch for Jamaica when they're playing. Because obviously we're a smaller island, we're a smaller country, we're kind of forgotten about when it comes to the World Cup.

So the fact that we've made it this far, all of Jamaica will celebrate. Who's your guys' favourite player? Lauren James. I don't think I have a specific favourite player, but I like to see how the underdogs are really coming up. I don't really like to use the phrase underdogs because any country who's playing in the World Cup could be classed as underdogs.

But just like Charlotte was saying, Jamaica, which is my team, oherwydd unrhyw wlad sy'n gwneud Cwmni Cymru efallai fod yn clas o ddoddau, ond fel y dywedodd Charlotte, Mae Jamaica, sy'n fy tîm, yn hyfryd i weld sut maen nhw'n gwneud hanes ac mae'n dangos bod pan fydd y gwladau hyn a'r tîm ffwrdd yn cael eu cyllid, nid oherwydd nad oeddent yn dda, ond i weld pan fyddwch yn rhoi arian i rywbeth sy'n dda oherwydd gallwch weld faint o ymdrech a faint o ymarfer sy'n dod i mewn i. like when you put money and when you really put money into something that is not for good because you can see how much effort and how much practice comes into it would you talk about the world cup with your friends um i don't personally think so because if i do talk about try to talk like my friends even for my male friends or my other female friends they wouldn't really know much

about it because it's not as promoted and even if i did mention it and then most of the males would just be like oh she's trying to joke about it saying it's trash saying it's this and saying it's that so it's kind of a bit annoying. I mean there's loads of people who would be so on it for the men's world cup and would be just like in so much information they know it they know about if you ask them they know it but when it comes to the women's world cup I feel like even though we are still reaching that recognition and being able to notice the Women's World Cup, it's still not noticed by loads of people

and it's quite, you know, like, embarrassing. The love that you have for football, I also have that love too. It might be different and it might come from a different experience, but my love for football, you can't tell me that this is not fake. This is really real. I just love it and I just hope that people can see the me that this is not fake. This is really well. I just love it and I just hope that people can see the passion that I have for it. Do you guys have a message for

the Lionesses playing on Sunday? Yeah, good luck. A pretty clear message from Samira, Charlotte and Isabel for the Lionesses on Sunday. So inspiring and uplifting, Salon. Oh, that was beautiful to hear their voices. I've been missing those voices all the way on the other side of the world. Oh, it was

such good work you've done there. But I mean, what stood out for me is that when they said outside of their time with football, beyond borders, they wouldn't necessarily talk about it with their friends or their families. Is that something you've seen through your work with the girls on the programme? Yeah, definitely. I think FBB is really about creating a safe

space and recognizing young people's passions and and validating their different interests that they have and bringing those young people together and saying it's okay for you to come in here and tell me that you absolutely love uh the jamaican national team and you've got the new shirt or it's great for you to be able to come in here and tell me that you actually really like watching raheem sterling play and and and creating those spaces where you affirm those interests because where I think there are similarities with what some of the girls experienced and and you know what we say kind of happened when many of us adult women went to school is that women's football wasn't a thing or wasn't um something that was condoned or called about to

talk about with with your friends so where we can actively create those spaces where they can come in and have that affirmed and have these role models at the front of the classroom or on the side of the football pitch affirming that interest i think is really important and powerful and you see you know you hear the likes of samira who she was introduced to football by her older brothers and her dad and her family when she was younger but it was all kind of you know mediated through men she now has an all-female space every week with Football Beyond Borders where she is surrounded by other women who are talking about football or enjoying football or playing football together.

And that is an OK and safe space to create amongst her that doesn't have to be something that mirrors, you know, what has gone before or how we experience men's football. You're right. Role models are so important, as is the importance of seeing yourself. So I want to touch on the lack of racial diversity amongst this year's England squad. It's attracted a bit of criticism with Lauren James and Jess Carter being the only two women of colour on the team. You've probably seen all the photos that are on the front cover and the back cover of all the papers today,

which is brilliant and celebratory, but also, you know, very, very starkly not representative. Is that a barrier to girls feeling that they are represented by the england squad it is definitely a barrier and you've heard it there right you've heard charlotte and samira both say that they love watching the jamaican national team and there there is an undercurrent in there of how important the power of representation is for those girls to see themselves and when they were asked who their favorite player was they said laura and james that's no coincidence they are three girls of color growing up in cities and they see themselves in the player who marries that experience and it's incredible and brilliant that we are you know on a pathway

to getting ensuring that there are so many more lauren james out there and they need to be ensuring that they are going up that pipeline and lots of people are doing that work and i think the fa know it more than anyone we've just had Karen Carney's review come out calling for better better data when it comes to representation and and diversity of girls playing football across the pyramid and I think what you really need in these in these um as part of the solution is organizations like football reporters like many others and people in the community you really understand are kind of embedded in the heart of the communities where more girls of colour are growing up to ensure that they are creating a lifelong love for football and critically have access to play and I think we do that a lot kind of in partnership with with the FA with big brands like Nike and I think the other part of that puzzle is

not just bringing football to them in an accessible way, but it's who is delivering that football. And as you say, it's about the importance of those relatable role models. So how are we ensuring that we are developing a generation of diverse coaches, for example? And we're kind of working with an organization called the Powerhouse who are brilliant at doing that and ensuring that the girls who are playing football are also looking up and saying, I'm coming to this space because this person looks like me, sounds like me, has similar life experiences to me. And all those kind of touch points then create this safety in a space where girls go, cool, I can see myself playing football and I'm going to stay in football for as long as possible. And I'm not going to see it as something that isn't for me. And that is the way that you kind of will start to chip away at some of those barriers and the diversity barriers that we see. Yeah, it's an important conversation that's happening

because Chelsea manager Emma Hayes called women's football a middle-class sport earlier this year, and she called on clubs to do more to attract players from inner-city areas. But I wonder why the women's teams are so far behind the men's teams in this. It's really interesting. I think there's a lot of structural stuff over the last couple of years

in terms of where one argument that you will be able to see a lot of places, one that Emma Hayes actually speaks about herself, is the regional talent centres, which are, you know, sort of where teenage which mean that they are you're much more likely to be able to attend them if you are in a kind of suburb um or you have parents that can drive you or you know good public transport links for example so that's one thing that's a real barrier and there's different schemes there's the fa discover my talent which is about putting scouts into cities rather than getting the girls to have to travel out to them so that's one part of it that's kind of like the infrastructural question. But there's also something broader when we hold up the women's game in comparison to the men's game, which is about the culture surrounding it. If you're a teenage boy and you're growing up,

you will see your favourite rappers rap about your football team and players in that team. You will see your favourite fashion brands have footballers wearing those clothes. There are so many cultural touch points around men's football that ensure that there's a kind of real diverse fan base and player base engaged in it. The women's game is on the start of that journey. And it's on kind of brands or media outlets, musicians, all these kind of people to start building that culture around women's football to ensure that it is much more representative so that a teenage girl growing up in a city who might never have considered football listens to her favourite rapper, her favourite artist or looks at her favourite fashion brand and sees women's football within it and then goes cool this has relevance in my life and that makes

me want to get involved in it. Why is it so important that girls from all backgrounds feel the legacy of the success of this World Cup? Because football is one of the most powerful sports in the world for you to feel a sense of self, a sense of belonging. We know that teenage girls who play football are more confident than teenage girls who play other sports, other team sports. There is something in football, it's a nation sport. We're so obsessed with it as a country that you can tap into something in that team environment, feeling part of something wider that allows you to kind of be your full self and have this release and build a sense of community of people with shared passions.

And I think the more people that can access that and the more that we can ensure that historically marginalised groups from that experience get access to that, then the more brilliant our society will be. Ceylon Andy Hickman from Football Beyond Borders there. And lots of you getting in touch to tell me how you're feeling the power of this World Cup. Ian from Wales says,

I shall be watching the match from my hospital bed after having a hip replacement on Saturday. England to win 4-2, repeating the only other time England won the World Cup. Claire says, myself and my partner have tickets for the 100 cricket where women's Manchester originals are due to start at 11. Oh no, I don't want to miss them. Can you ask the 100 to delay the start?

OK, can you delay the start, please? Let's see if that works. They have time, as they can delay for rain. It is in Manchester, but we can't guarantee a wet morning. Can't you, though? Maybe you can a little bit. Odds are that it may well be. Kate says, I have to say, as a 57-year-old woman who liked kicking a ball as a kid,

but simply didn't realise I could play, this is huge for me. I am so sick of hearing about 1966. It's almost 60 years ago and the men haven't done much since then. So these women are my heroes. And Michelle says, I have no interest in sports and football whatsoever. Never watched a game and would curl my lip at the antics on and off the pitch of male players and the obscene amount of money they were paid. However, yesterday I found myself watching the match.

I'm not quite sure why. Maybe it's the pinnacle of feminism, the peak of women not only proving they are to be reckoned with, but they can do it quietly without personal strutting or arrogant behaviour and just doing the job that men haven't done. So yes, I will watch the final,

but will have no idea what's going on apart from knowing a ball in the net is a good thing for England. As a 60 plus year old feminist, this has made me very happy. Michelle, that's all you need to know. As long as it goes in the back of the net, we're doing all right. 84844 is the number to text. Tell me how you feel about the World Cup, where you'll be watching it.

Or indeed, if it's A-level results day in your house, how's it going? Or anything else you hear on the programme and you'd like to share your opinion, we would love to hear from you. 84844 is that number. Now, a 22-year-old woman has denied carrying out an illegal abortion during lockdown. Bethany Cox was accused of two charges on Tuesday in relation to allegedly using drugs and poison to end a pregnancy in July 2020. She pleaded not guilty to the charges in court and has been released on bail.

Hannah Al-Othman is a reporter for the Sunday Times and was in court and joins me now to bring us the latest. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Hannah. Can you tell us what happened in court? Morning. Yes, so it was a brief hearing, probably only about 15 minutes long. And basically it was for Bethany Cox to enter her pleas to the charges that she faced and she pleaded not guilty. And a trial date was set. So that is due to take place. She's due to go on trial sort of mid-January next year. Obviously, with the courts the way they are, things can change, but that's sort of the timetable that has been set out. When do the charges relate to? July 2020. So it is basically the first week in July.

And so there are two charges that she faces. So one is a charge of child destruction. And the date that was given in court for that was 6th of July 2020. And then the second was administering poison with intent to procure a miscarriage between the 2nd and the 7th of July 2020. So when's the court hearing and what's the maximum sentence that could be given here for this case? So both these offences carry a maximum sentence of life in prison. And the trial date has been set for the week of the 15th of July, sorry, 15th of January, and the court have allowed seven days for that to take place. Remind us, Hannah, what are the UK laws regarding abortion and what changed during lockdown in terms of access to drugs? So basically, abortion is

a criminal act governed by criminal law but there are um exceptions the the 1967 abortion act created exemptions whereby um a woman would not be prosecuted for uh carrying out an abortion so generally that's allowed up to 24 weeks and basically that's you know two medical professionals agree um to carry out that procedure and it is done by a registered medical professional then that will be legal and then there are circumstances where abortions can be carried out right up to sort of the end of a pregnancy where there's no time limit so that's if there's a fatal fetal abnormality or if the mother's life is you know severely um health is severely at risk or her life is in danger um and then sort of biggest change to abortion laws probably since uh the

1967 act was the emergency legislation that was introduced during the covid pandemic and um as i'm sure you know most people remember it was a lot harder than it had been to access any kind of in-person medical services so this legislation was introduced that allowed for remote consultations and then for pregnancies up to 10 weeks pills could be dispatched so you would have a remote call with a practitioner and then those pills would be sent out by post and they can then be taken at home. And this was emergency legislation designed to deal with what was happening in terms of Covid. But Parliament actually voted to make that a permanent change. So now that continues, that provision.

There have been three other cases in the last eight months. Can you tell us more about these other cases? Yes, so one, the sort of most well-known one is Carla Foster. So she is a woman who was jailed. She received pills by post under this legislation from a registered abortion provider from the British Pregnancy Advice Service. But she basically wasn't honest with them in the remote consultation and her pregnancy was a lot more advanced than she said it was when they

supplied the drugs. So they supplied them in good faith but she then went on to have a um to be very ill when she took the pills and an ambulance was called and she was taken to hospital and she delivered a fetus that was somewhere between 32 and 34 weeks gestation um and she was prosecuted uh and she was sentenced to 28 weeks in prison. And I think that was at the start of June. And then around a month later, the Court of Appeal reduced that sentence. There was quite significant mitigation, the fact that it had been sort of the height of lockdown, issues around, you know, her mental health, and, you know, the fact that she's a carer. She has three children. One of them has additional needs.

And what the Court of Appeal said was that, you know, it wasn't really the appropriate punishment for that was not to send her to immediate custody. And they reduced and suspended her sentence. And she was released after spending around a month in custody um then there is another woman who is due to stand trial in November at Gloucester Crown Court called Sophie Harvey um and she's jointly charged with her partner um for offences, including procuring poison with intent to induce a miscarriage. And as I say, that one they've pleaded not guilty and that is due to go to trial. And then the fourth case is from December last year when it was actually dropped. That was a case at Oxford Tryon Court and the woman had been prosecuted for attempting to induce a miscarriage uh but the uh the child was actually born alive and she was caring for the child um but because of um you know basically she was reported to the police because of uh drugs that were found inside her at the hospital

and she was prosecuted. But the CPS basically dropped that case. And the judge had some choice words at the time about bringing that prosecution. So they're the four cases. Thank you, Hannah. 15th of January is when the Bethany Cox case will be brought to trial. So we'll be sure we'll be revisiting the story then. Thank you for that, Hannah Al-Othman, who's the reporter for The Sunday Times. 84844, the number to text.

Lots of you still getting in touch about the World Cup. Ruth says, my mother watched her first football match yesterday. She was enthralled by the Lionesses' achievements and she says she'll be watching it again on Sunday. She'll be 90 next year. What a team and what an inspiration for women everywhere. Catherine says, surely male footballers should now all be told to play like a girl. I like it.

Now, as many of you know all too well, it's A-level results today across the UK for hundreds and thousands of students. The proportion of A or A-star grades is 27.2% down from a peak of nearly 45% in the pandemic. That means it's more or less back to where it was in 2019, the last year of exams before COVID. What do we know so far about how girls have performed? Well, to tell us more, we are joined by Gronja Hallahan, who's Senior Analyst from Test Magazine. Morning, Gronja. Welcome to Women's Hour.

Your immediate thoughts, please, from the results this year. How do they compare to last year? So comparing to last year, we can see the expected drop, which we were all prepared for. But when we compare it to 2019, we're seeing a grade distribution far more similar to what results were like that year. So the big plan to get things back to normal seems like it's, you know, it's achieved its objection and it's given out far fewer A stars and A's

than they did last year. And what about in terms of the boy-girl divide? What are we seeing there? So this is where it gets really interesting um the boys have outperformed the girls when it when we look at the very top grades for the a stars and this is something that professor alan smithers was talking about earlier this week um he was saying how you know the the boys have outperformed the girls at the the very top grade,

and he was interested to see if that happened again. And he quite famously made these comments during the pandemic that when the girls were outperforming the boys at the A-stars, when we had the teacher assess grades in 2020 and 2021, he made some comments about perhaps it was because the boys were too busy playing Xbox to be concentrating on their studies. Of course, I don't think the picture is quite as simple as that, but it is interesting to see that boys are outperforming girls when we look at the very, very top grades.

And it's really important. This matters. Well, first of all, why does it matter? And why have they done better? So it really matters because when we look at A-levels, this is the key for students to go on to access higher education. You know, employers look at A-level grades and give them far more weight than they do to GCSE grades because they're more recent. And when we're talking about the very, very top grades, we're talking about access to the more elite universities, to the more highly paid career options.

You know, I think this requires some closer scrutiny. As to why, well, if you ask different people, you'll get different answers. Some people say this is partly due to the fact that the move that we've made with exams to make them more exams-based and reduce the amount of coursework that we expect for students out of A-levels. We had exam reforms a few years ago, and the reduction of coursework was about trying to make a fairer playing field. However, there's lots of research that suggests that girls do better on coursework than they do on exams. This can be for a multitude of reasons. It could be because girls are more likely to suffer from what we call exam anxiety. They get more nervous around exams, they don't perform to their best. And also there's a sort of a commonly accepted idea that girls are better at forward planning.

So what we mean by that is when we ask them to do, when teachers are asking students to do coursework earlier on in the year, girls can better appreciate the importance of that coursework and the impact that will have on their exam in two years' time. Whereas some people say that boys struggle with the idea that something they do today will matter in a few years and therefore don't give it so much importance and think, oh, it doesn't matter, I'll pull it out of the bag on exams day. So, yes, but what i think is really interesting is when we look at the number of girls and the proportion of girls that achieve that lovely a star a star a star the triple a star the you know the requirement to get into the most elite universities that's what you need to hit

and girls hit it more than boys do there are 3820 students who are very happy this morning because they got that a star a star a star and 55 of them were girls and this is the same as the previous year and the year before girls tend to do better when we look at performing across several subjects and the reason for that again we can't ever really truly know but some people have hypothesized it's because girls are better at spreading their attention across a number of subjects at a time and this might lead people who are talking about you know exams reforms and how we're going to change things is the system we have for assessment the best we we could use should we look to our european neighbors and look at something like the best we could use, should we look to our European neighbours

and look at something like the EBAC, where students do study a multiple number of subjects right up until the age of 18? And would that suit our female students better and meet their needs more appropriately? Because they obviously have this skill in spreading their attention across a number of subjects. So, yeah.

Well, what about that? What about the way that the A-levels are assessed? Could we be seeing any changes? Well, it's something that was discussed by Labour in their recent education announcement earlier this year. And I think that, you know, there's lots of talk about the impact that AI has had on education. And at the moment, the part of education is consulting and looking into and doing some research into what impact that might have. And it seems to be heavily hinted that we might be looking at a reduction of coursework in A-level assessments. You know, if we look at how using AI might impact students doing coursework at home.

So you can see this sort of worry about, you know, having unfair advantages. You know, how can you check it? We don't really have good systems for ensuring that students haven't had extra computer assistance. Yeah, or extra parental assistance for that matter if your parents are all over it um you know and this is something that um the of the of course chief has

been talking about they're the people that oversee all the exams and there's been comments like you know if you're asking your students to do their control their um non-exam assessments this is what we call coursework then you know you should really be asking them to do it in exam conditions so you can be totally confident that the work is produced by that by that person um because that's when class has a big part to play in all of that as well doesn't it absolutely and like let's think about how some children come from homes where they've got a lot more extra help and that's not really making things fair for everybody. Another important consideration is subject choice. That's another interesting bit of data we've had confirmed today. So we've had the provisional entries for the A-levels, but now we know exactly how many boys

and girls took each subject. And this point before about the number of A-stars that are awarded to boys more frequently than girls, Could this also be down to the subjects that they're choosing? So if you look at the top choices that A-levels have for girls, more girls take English literature, performing arts and health and social care. That's like their top three subjects that are very, very girl heavy. And the subjects with the fewer number of girls, computing, physics and further maths. And if you do a little bit of number crunching, you can see that in those STEM subjects, you're more likely to be awarded those A stars.

But when girls, we haven't quite gone through all of the numbers yet, but I know from last year, when you look at the number of girls who take those subjects, when they do take them, they do score really really well they do do really well in the subject so perhaps part of this is also making sure that girls are taking subjects that will get them the results they need but also you know there's a lot of arguments about the parity between the subjects if you're interested in english lit you should study english lit I don't think it's straightforward. Oh, if we just get them all to do maths, that will solve the problem. Yeah. Grainne, fascinating stuff.

Thank you so much for speaking to me this morning. Congratulations to the 3,820 of you that got three A stars. But also, just well done, all of you. Whatever your results today, you put the work in. It's hard. And just congratulations, whichever way the exam results turned out for you don't worry it will all be fine that's my advice for what it's worth um 84844 is the number to text now listener week is only days away and we would love to hear from your kids do they have some great advice life advice they'd like to share with the women's

hour audience maybe it's about how to be happy, kind, or how to enjoy the great outdoors. Let us know as the parent or guardian and we could get in touch and feature it on Woman's Hour. So let's hear about your children's life advice. Now, as we know, it's A-level results day. For many, getting those grades and going to university is a formative experience, a place to learn and grow, form lifelong friendships.

But for the 10,000 children and young people who leave the care system each year, it's a different story. Financial vulnerability, mental health issues and lack of support can hinder access to higher education, even if the grades come through. Only 14% of pupils who've been in care go straight to university. That's compared to 47% of all other pupils. And those care leavers who do make it to uni are much more likely to drop out. But why is this? Well the Department for Education published Stable Homes Built on Love in February 2023 setting out the government's strategy to reform children's social care. After consultation closed in May the government are expected to publish a

response next month. Well here to talk about this to us are these issues are Catherine Sachs-Jones, Chief Executive of the charity Become which supports children in care and young care leavers and Kim Emanike who moved from a foster home to a hostel aged 17 where she studied for A-levels. Good morning to both of you Catherine and Kim. Catherine I'm going to come to you first. Talk us through the national picture. How many children is this affecting? So we know about 10,000 children leave the care system every year and they're not as likely to go on to university as their peers, sadly. And that's because they face more barriers in doing well in education in the first place. You heard about Kim's story. She was in a hostel when she was having to do her exams. We know children in care are moved around the system a lot,

sometimes in the middle of exams, sometimes changing schools multiple times a year. And on top of that, often they've been through significant trauma, have mental health problems and face a lot of stigma and lower aspirations for them, actually. So it's really hard for young people who are care experienced to get to university in the first place and then when they're there they face a whole hurdle of barriers that other students don't you know in terms of the financial and debt's often a real issue for care experienced young people who don't have that family support to rely on there are practical issues worrying about where you're going to live in the summer holidays, for example, and emotional issues as well. It can be really isolating and lonely being

a care experienced student at university. You know, and just imagine, you know, you turn up on the first day and for a lot of care experienced students, they do that on their own, you know, and their peers are there with, you know, mum and dad dropping them off and they're having to turn up on their own. And it can be, you know, and that can continue throughout university and it can feel really, really hard and really lonely. And there needs to be better support, both to make sure that young people are supported so they can do well at school,

that there are real aspirations for young people leaving care and that they get meaningful support in university so that they can stay there and do well. it can be you know a real opportunity um for them to kind of get on in life and go on go on and have a bright future but unfortunately we don't have the systems in place to support to give care experienced students the support that they need um before i come to you kim i'm just going to read out this message that we've had from one of our listeners saying, hello, I'm a 50 something care leaver. I left care was chucked out into the world, age 17, halfway through A-levels, which I ended up dropping out of. I'd previously been in the top sets at school, used to do well in exams, had been assessed as a gifted child with an IQ of 150.

My life could have been so different if social services had supported me through college and university instead of discarding me like rubbish I could have had a successful career instead I've been in and out of mostly low-paid jobs for most of my adult life. Catherine I'm going to come back to you in a minute to talk about that message and how we could change the system to support people like that and make sure that people don't feel that they've been chucked out and and left to fend for themselves but Kim let's talk let's talk to you about your experience of being in care and how that impacted you getting to university. Yeah, so I went into care from the age of seven. I was actually in care for 10 years, right up until 17. I had a very mixed experience in care. The first five years were great. And then the subsequent five years were

absolutely hell that the relationship deteriorated between my foster carer and I and it meant that the summer that I was turning 18 they decided that the placement was unfit for me my foster carer made it clear that she didn't want me there anymore and she wanted me out and the only option I had was to move into a hostel I wasn't actually provided with any other option of moving in with another family or staying put. Like it was at 17, Kim, you're moving out. And what's really interesting is because that was my second year of A-levels

that I was going into. So it meant that I actually completed my A-levels in a hostel. And being 17, you're just a child because I'm 25 now and I still think I'm relatively young. So imagine back when I was 17, I was a baby. And just to have that expectation of performing well in school, getting the grades to even get into uni, I had additional pressures of paying bills.

I had to pay for my light, pay for gas, electricity, pay for council tax. And having that pressure at the age of 17 is absolutely crazy because when you look at your peers all they're worrying about is probably how their hair looks and their grades but not only am I worrying about that I'm also worrying about bills and at the age of 17 it's just absolutely absurd to have those kind of additional pressures and when you're living in a hostel that's not exactly an environment that pushes you to go to a top performing university when I look at the people that I was living next to someone had come out of prison for rape someone else had come out of prison for fighting the girl downstairs had extreme mental health issues to the point that she tried to commit suicide so we had all of these things going on I didn't even have access to wi-fi or just to the internet so even trying to support myself to do my A-levels,

it was a struggle because I just didn't have the right resources and I wasn't in the right environment. I'm just, I am feeling so proud of your resilience and tenacity to still pursue and continue through that environment. Like, what kept you going? How did you manage to pursue and keep on at your A-levels? I think for me, I've always seen education as your way out. I've always seen education to link to power, link into a good job,

link into like having a position in society. So for me, I thought if I smash my A-levels, I go to Loughborough, I'll have a good degree. I'll be able to just go into a good job. I'll be able to get my permanent house and that would be my way out of the system. And then how was your experience at uni? I had a very mixed experience. Overall, I absolutely loved being at uni.

But like I said, being a care leaver, it came with its challenges. When you go to university for anybody, it's very daunting. It's quite a lonely experience. I think it's quite isolating. I'm from South East London. I went to Loughborough, which is obviously a small town. So it's very different from home. And I felt like when I went to uni, I just didn't have any support.

The only support I could rely on was my personal network. So like my best friends and my family. In terms of social services, like my PA came to see me once and then I never heard from her for the rest of my time at uni in that year. And it meant that I had a mental breakdown and I just didn't know where to go. But the average person has their parents cheering them on, giving them care packages,

just there to give you that additional love and support. But you don't have that when you're a care leaver. You don't necessarily have those kind of networks so you feel very much on your own um so my first year was definitely tough but then I got in contact with one of my teachers from school and she got me in contact with student services at Loughborough and they were giving me support and that really helped throughout my time at Loughborough um but you had to pick up the phone and get in touch with your teacher from school. Catherine, what can we do?

What can be done to support care leavers through going to university? I mean, you know, listening to Kim, what she's achieved is amazing. She's amazing. You're amazing, Kim. But it's absolutely outrageous and makes them so angry, the hurdles that she had to overcome to get to where she is today. No child should have to face that we have to do much better for children in care so that means improving the care system itself

reducing instability stopping children being moved from school to school children often have to leave care at at 16 and go into a hostel in exactly the circumstances kim described that should not be the case how can we expect children to study for exams when they're living in hostels, often with much older adults with no Wi-Fi access? We have to do better and make sure that every child has a stable, loving home. And then when it comes to leaving care and going into university, we need to end that care cliff of support, which means that young people are expected to be independent overnight at 18. And we need to make sure there's much better joined up support between the local authority and the university to make sure that every care experienced student gets as much support as possible to help them succeed in education. Because like Kim said,

it is the route to a better life, you know, and we have to make sure that we do all we can to help care experience succeed in university. I want to thank you both for speaking to me this morning, Catherine and Kim. Thank you. Your story is inspirational. Thank you so much. 84844 if you would like to get in touch with us about anything.

Lots of you still getting in touch about the football. I hold my hands up to being less than keen on women's football until the Euros. Shame on me. Have been a big fan ever since.

What a lovely squad we've got and what a wonderful beacon they are for the power of sport for everybody. I'm away for the weekend, but Sunday morning's activity is written in stone. Now on to my next guest. You might know her from phrases like, here's what I made earlier.

Yep, Sarah Green is perhaps most well known for her work on shows as Blue Peter and Going Live. But I am delighted to say, as she is my favourite Blue Peter presenter, and I'm not just saying that because he's sitting in front of me, Sarah, she's back on our screens with a brand new quiz show, Finish Line.

Cesar take on a new role in her repertoire, that of quiz master, alongside her co-host, Roman Kemp. The first episode is out on BBC One at 4.30 on Monday and Sarah joins me to tell us more. Welcome. Welcome to Woman's Hour and welcome back to our screens.

Thank you. How are you feeling about it? Thank you, Anita. Very excited. Very excited indeed. And yeah, I've done most things. This isn't a boasting. This is just longevity, I think.

I've done most things on television apart from sport, which is a whole other subject. This time, yeah. And religion. And I say, do you know what? Never say never. Never say never. And I had been on quiz shows as a contestant, but never really on the other side of it. I mean, on shows like Superstore and Going Live, we had little quiz moments there.

And again, I was the one asking the questions on that. But when you appear as a contestant, and you'll know this, Anita, it is terrifying. Absolutely terrifying. And I did Richard Osman's House of Games, which actually, by some fluke, I managed to win one of those shows. And I've done The Chase, which was, I mean, I love that show. I'm addicted to it. And I realise how brilliant Bradley Walsh is. He's amazing, yeah. He's a master. Yeah. Absolute king. He enriched us.

So it was very lovely to be asked earlier this year, how do you fancy taking on a role, a bit like the sort of Richard Osman role on Pointless, but on a new quiz format? And I said, is there such a thing as a new quiz format? And they sent it to me and I was I was intrigued. It's compelling. I was biting my nails and I was watching people walking it through without any of the technology involved in their office. And I loved it. I said, God, I would love to do this. I really would. Did the phone call just arrive or were you ready? Were you ready to come back and get your teeth into something? A bit of each. I mean, life changed dramatically for me back in 2010 and then 13 and 14.

And I lost my mother and my father and my husband, Mike, within that space of time. And the world turned upside down. I really had to relearn life actually and it was very raw anyone who's been through this knows this feeling that sort of feeling that you you're turning into something of an emotional punch bag actually but I knew when I was feeling less raw and I have been very very lucky in the intervening years in what's happened in my life Mike left me with a huge a huge task on my hands which was a wonderful thing a wonderful gift he gave me which was taking on his business learning the ropes with that which wasn't so much uh climbing a cliff face or you know it was it was it was the learning curve wasn't a curve. It was a precipice. And so your life really was. It really was.

So I had to kind of change focus in most ways and step away from what you'd always done. Yes. And I knew when I was offered certain jobs in television and radio that actually, yes, I'm ready to take on that, but not that. It was all a bit raw. And then fortunately for me, I have a wonderful beloved in my life now. And he has helped me tremendously find my confidence again and find out who I am now in this new chapter. And, you know, we take our beloveds with us, mum and dad and Mike, they come with us, but I just felt ready for this sort of a challenge

and I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed it. It has been tremendous tremendous it's been like coming home it really has now I waxed my arm hairs the other day so you can't see that they're standing up on end just listening to you speak but um really truly thank you for sharing that with me yeah it's the confidence what I wanted to talk to you about because you're you know your role I grew up watching you on screen and and you trained as an actress and then presenting came your way. And you found yourself at the age of 22, so young, presenting Blue Peter. Confidence is what it's all about.

You need to step out there and be yourself to then lose it. Yes. It wasn't a case of knowing that I'd lost it as far as my professional life was concerned. I just knew I felt hollowed out and raw. And when that started to heal, when the sadness has a very bitter taste, and when that started to taste sweeter, when I realized I was laughing without hurting, when I realized that I'd got my appetite back for life, I thought, yeah, I'm healing here. And you know when something comes in and you just want to grab it with both hands, you think, yes, now I'm back on track.

And as I say, you know, Rob has helped me tremendously with that and understands that situation and understands this life, this broadcasting life that we lead. And going back to doing... We do. We love him. When this offer came in and they said, look, how do you feel about the fact that it's in Belfast? Well, again, the hairs on my arms, which I hadn't waxed. You don't need to. Because going to Belfast was like going home.

Mike grew up partly in Belfast. And so I have sort of extended family there. I've never been there for a holiday, only to work about eight or nine times. And every time I've been there, I've had far more fun with the work than I would have done had I been on holiday. And I've done everything from narrate the snowman with the Ulster Symphony Orchestra over there to a tour of the vagina monologues.

Now, you don't get to cover a bigger spectrum than that. And when you've had 3,000 women from Belfast all shouting certain words that we asked them to shout at us in that show, anyone who's seen the show will know exactly what I'm talking about. I tell you, you haven't lived. It's a joy. And going back this time did not disappoint. So full circle. I had all these questions that I wanted to ask you about

being a woman of a certain age in the industry and how hard it might have been. And actually, what I'm feeling now is age is sort of irrelevant. It feels like for you. It absolutely feels that. And I can't tell you the whys and wherefores, except that I am someone who doesn't like categories, boxes. I want there to be diversity everywhere and a diversity of choice. And that's the thing.

If you're someone who's come from, as you say, you know, I was training and I did work as an actress early on. My career trajectory, I wanted to be running the National Theatre by the time I was 30. I'm not saying I was overambitious, but it just, a tangent happened. And I got offered, I got given another opportunity. And I think sometimes there are sliding doors moments

that are kind of meant to be. And we should listen to that. And I say that very mindful that today is A-level results day. And if things don't go the way that you saw or see your trajectory going, it makes, what you said just earlier, Anita, about that, it will work out. When I was very lucky, I was good at exams. I got my A-levels. I did the course I wanted to do. And my best friend at university, she'd come and ended up in the same place by a totally different route and has gone on to work. I mean, you know, we can take different routes to the thing that we

are meant to be doing or the thing that we never realised we were going to end up doing which is certainly what's happened in my case. We've just we've heard Sarah the news in the last hour that broadcaster and TV presenter Sir Michael Parkinson has passed away at the age of 88. Now you worked with him on Much Loved Show Ghostwatch we'd just love to hear some of your memories of him. Can I just say first of, I just got that news before coming and sitting down with you. And I send my sincerest, deepest condolences and love to his wife, Mary. Working with Michael Parkinson, I was, I mean, you're working with someone who I grew up watching, the king of the interview. I mean, the person who invented that style of letting someone speak, but knowing how to direct it and guide it.

Well, not only was he the king, he was also a fantastic actor, which anyone who hasn't seen Ghostwatch just needs to go and look to find out. Yes. Wonderful man. Absolutely. And as you said, condolences to his family. Absolute broadcasting legend, as are you, Sarah. And I personally am delighted that you're going to be back on our screens, as I'm sure most of our listeners are as well. Best of luck with the quiz. I know it starts on Monday, 4.30, BBC One. You've got it. Thank you, Anita.

And come back any time to talk to us. I'd love to. That's it from me. Join me again tomorrow for more Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I saw a footprint. I'm Andrew Benfield, and I'm obsessed with the Yeti. The face looks like some kinds of monkey. The idea of a Yeti-like creature has been around for centuries. But could it be real? In Yeti,

a new 10-part series from BBC Radio 4, I'm going to try to find out. I'll be joined by a good friend. You said we were going for a short walk across the valley. I'm Richard Horsey. This search isn't going to be easy. They have the ability to disappear. Are we chasing phantoms? Yeti chasers, you'll never find them. But in this series, we think we might. Listen to Yeti on BBC Sounds.

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