Woman's Hour - Lionesses win Finalissima, Good Friday Agreement, Tanya Sarne, Windrush, Angie Thomas

Episode Date: April 7, 2023

Unbeaten for 30 games, last night the Lionesses won Finalissima. Jess Creighton discusses with Tom Garry, who talks about the game last night, the Lionesses road to the World Cup in Australia and New Zealand, and Wales beating Northern Ireland in Cardiff last night.Today marks 25 years since the Good Friday Agreement was signed - bringing peace to Northern Ireland after 30 years of conflict. To mark this Jess Creighton is joined by two women working to continue that peace. Aoife Smith is the programme manager for Community Dialogue, an organisation which aims to build trust amongst people who hold opposing political, social and religious views and Hilary Copeland who is the Director of Fighting Words NI, an arts and education charity for children and young people. Tanya Sarne was the woman behind the fashion brand Ghost. Launched in 1984, it became one of the biggest independent fashion brands in the 90s, famous for its outrageous parties and incredibly wearable but beautiful clothes. An only child to refugee parents, Tanya fell into fashion as an unemployed single mother of two, desperately trying to make a living. She's now written about her extraordinary life in a memoir, Free Spirit.The civil rights group Black Equity Organisation is launching legal action following the Home Secretary's decision to drop three recommendations from the independent Windrush inquiry. The recommendations in question are the establishment of a Migrants’ Commissioner, an increase in the powers of the Independent Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration and the running of reconciliation events. We discuss the reasons behind the judicial review with the CEO of the Black Equity Organisation, Dr Wanda Wyporska.Angie Thomas is the global bestselling author of the novel The Hate U Give which was published in 2017, it became a best-seller and a film. Now, she has turned her hand to writing for younger readers with her new book Nic Blake And The Remarkables. Angie joins Jess Creighton to discuss.Presented by Jess Creighton Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Beverley Purcell

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. Welcome to the programme. Lovely to have your company today. Now on the programme, we'll be looking at how political decisions can have a big impact on people's lives. With it being the 25th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement, we'll be talking to two women at the forefront of ensuring peace continues in Northern Ireland. They'll tell us about how that political agreement impacted their lives, how young people in Northern Ireland are now engaging with politics and why women are pivotal to upholding the agreement.

Also, political decisions that can impact people's confidence in government. After the Home Office decided to drop three of the 30 Windrush reforms it had previously agreed to, civil rights group, the Black Equity Organisation, is now seeking a judicial review. They'll tell me why they believe the Home Secretary's decision is unlawful. Also on the programme, best-selling author Angie Thomas, They'll tell me why they believe the Home Secretary's decision is unlawful. Also on the programme, bestselling author Angie Thomas,

whose debut novel, The Hate U Give, explored police brutality and activism in the African-American community. She'll be telling us about why she's now turned her hand to the fantasy genre. She'll be live from Atlanta in the US, so waking up very early for us. And this will be her first UK broadcast interview about her new book. Very exciting. Another woman who has recently been published is Tanya Sarn. Now, Tanya is the woman behind fashion brand Ghost, which became one of the biggest independent fashion brands in the 1990s.

They were known as much for their clothes as they were for their A-list parties. Now, Tanya will be with us in the studio to discuss her life, everything from divorce, being a single mum and addiction to drugs and alcohol, which is all detailed in her new memoir. Now, I mentioned political decisions impacting people's lives. Well, the England women's football team have been at the forefront of influencing government when it comes to school sport policy. Well, they made history again last night, beating Brazil at Wembley to lift the Fina Lissama Trophy. We'll come to discuss the significance of that result in just a moment. But I was so excited to see the number of high profile people in the crowd supporting the lionesses last night, cheering them on. Some of the Spice Girls were there, Gerry Horner, Emma Bunton. They were both sitting with

England star Beth Mead, who of course wasn't involved because she was injured. So it got me thinking about times when you, our listeners, have been well supported in life. Who are your cheerleaders? Who is that person or who are those people who have given you encouragement to do something that you were maybe unsure about or felt that you couldn't do? How did it help you? What did you achieve as a result? I recently went to my sister's netball match. It was a big game because she's battling it out at the top of the table. Her team and a couple of others are in the running. I came armed with jelly babies for a halftime snack. And I also brought along some pom poms and I cheered every single pass that she made.

Every interception, she was absolutely horrified. I'm not sure if I've been banned for the final two games of the season, but I'd love to know who is your cheerleader. And I have to say, my sister did admit after the game that she raised her level because I was on the sideline and she wanted to impress me and she felt supported. So who is your cheerleader? You can text us on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate.

You can send us a WhatsApp or a voice note as well. This is the number 03700100444. And on social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. So I mentioned the Lionesses. That's where I'd like to start this morning. They've now gone 30, yes, 30 games without losing

after that win against Brazil. It was 1-1 at full time. So the game went to a dramatic penalty shootout, which England won 4-2. More than 83,000 fans at Wembley were cheering them on in what was one of England's toughest tests in recent months. So let's hear from Ella Toon who scored for England and she spoke after the match. Yeah it's an amazing feeling, it's what we wanted. Obviously it was a tough game and first half I thought we dominated, second half was difficult and they came out fighting

and yeah we won on penalty. So we're obviously really happy that we've got the medal round, aren't we? Another medal round the necks, another trophy lifted. But it wasn't just England who played yesterday. Wales beat Northern Ireland 4-1 in a friendly at the Cardiff City Stadium. That was in front of a record crowd as well. I was actually at that game in Cardiff. Some of Wales' goals were absolutely brilliant.

I mentioned I was in Cardiff. I drove for hours last night trying to get back for this show this morning. So I haven't slept very much. Hopefully Tom Gary, women's football reporter at The Telegraph, has had a bit more sleep than me. You were at Wembley last night, Tom. Good morning to you. What was the atmosphere like with 83,000 fans? good morning Jess it was really excellent and I think it was it's

starting to feel normal now for the Lionesses to sell out Wembley which I think was sort of unthinkable a few years ago because they rarely played there and now they've packed it out three times in the last nine months and I felt as though the level of sort of mental and emotional investment that the fans were showing in the game is on the rise as well there was real anguish when Brazil scored and then kind of real joyous celebration when England won the shootout and that's moved along now from maybe the kind of friendly atmosphere of a few years ago fans are really engaged in this um fans I mean I hope they didn't take as long to get home as you, but some of the fans got getting stuck

at the tube and train stations afterwards and staying at Wembley. Travel problems. But that's all part of it, sadly. But excellent atmosphere and a really interesting game as well to boot. Yeah, let's talk about the game. This was the first women's finalissima. What

is that exactly? And just how significant is this win against Brazil? Yes. So the finalissima. What is that exactly? And just how significant is this win against Brazil? Yes. So the finalissima is a new concept between UEFA and South America's footballing governing body where they join together and the European champions play the South American champions. It's a fairly glorified friendly, but it actually provided a really useful test for England against the side ranks ninth in the world, probably England's hardest test over the last six months and that's been good preparation for the World Cup

and despite maybe a slightly imperfect and sloppy second half with a few things to learn from, the fact that England came through, won the penalty shootout which they'd never done before and lifted another trophy, that's going to serve them in great stead for the World Cup I think and this winning feeling i mean that's the fourth time they've lifted a

trophy uh albeit three of those minor trophies but the fourth time they've lifted a trophy in the last 14 months which is a really nice habit for england to be getting into ahead of a world cup absolutely perfect considering the world cup's four months out just tell us about that first goal ellatoon's goal it's labelled as a team goal. Describe it to us. Was it good? It was a work of art, Jess, because there were 16 passes in this move

with nine different England players touching the ball. They kept the ball for about just under 40 seconds. And over those 16 passes, they slowly worked their way through some gaps in the Brazil defence until eventually it was some one-touch passing at the end and then El Atun with the finish.

And it was a really nice bit of football. The cameras sort of caught Serena Wiegmann mouthing, what a goal, if you lip-read her reaction to her staff. And you could tell she really enjoyed it. I thought it was an excellent goal. And that was the best moment of the night for England in terms of the quality of football they showed. They were really playing well at that point. Got a bit trickier in the second half,

but then they showed that resilience and determination to show the strength in the shootout. Yeah, what a fantastic win. 30 games unbeaten now. Another exciting football match last night that I was at at the Cardiff City Stadium. Wales beating Northern Ireland 4-1 in that international friendly. And of course, Northern Ireland

were the team who beat Wales to qualify for the Euros last summer. So there was a big rivalry there. How important do you think that win was to Wales? And by the way, there were some great goals on show by Wales last night. Yeah, Wales are really into a nice run of form now, actually.

Unbeaten in five and only one defeat in the last year and they seem to be building some nice momentum under Gemma Granger I think they're ones to watch and um as you know you've been there nearly 7,000 in the crowd is a really positive thing for the Wales women's team in Cardiff um and that seems to be growing and growing um and I think the target now for Wales and Northern Ireland too but particularly for Wales with the form they're in I think has to be trying and growing. And I think the target now for Wales, and Northern Ireland too, but particularly for Wales with the form they're in, I think has to be trying to qualify for the European Championship in 2025. They will be in with an increasingly strong shout.

They've got a good core of players, really a huge fan of the likes of Sophie Ingle. Obviously, Jeff Fishlock is playing very, very well as ever. But there's a core there. Gemma Evans is another really reliable player. Rachel Rowe, and they've got youngsters coming through too. So I think there is calls for optimism

for Wales in particular. They'll be buoyed by that victory. And the more fans they can get through the turnstiles, the better. Yeah, it's a really positive result for Wales and a sign of where

they're going in the future. Jess Fishlock scored, as you mentioned her, she's been playing so well. She scored that opening goal. And if anyone hasn't seen it, go and watch it because it was absolutely brilliant. Tom, thank you so much for joining us this morning

on Women's Hour. Great to speak to you. That was Tom Gary, women's football reporter at The Telegraph. He was at Wembley last night to see England lift yet another trophy. Now, today marks 25 years since the Good Friday Agreement was signed. The agreement played a major part in bringing an end to 30 years of conflict known as the Troubles. Ahead of the

Easter weekend, the police have warned of the potential of public disorder. The Chief Constable of the Northern Ireland Police has said there could be an attempt to draw officers into gun or bomb attacks. So clearly with tensions so high and no functioning government for over a year now, what are the prospects for lasting peace in Northern Ireland today? Well, I'm joined by two women who were children when the Good Friday Agreement happened, and they are now working to ensure peace continues in their local communities. Aoife Smith is the Programme Manager for Community Dialogue, which is an organisation which aims to build trust

amongst people who hold opposing political, social and religious views. Aoife is based in Derry. I'm also joined by Hilary Copeland. Hilary is Director of Fighting Words Northern Ireland, an arts and education charity for children and young people. Hilary is based in East Belfast and is also a campaigner for integrated education. Good morning to you both. Welcome to the programme. Hilary,

let me just start with you and just explain to us firstly, what is integrated education? Good morning, Jess. Thanks so much. Integrated education is an important difference from what I think is probably just normal schooling in other areas of the UK and Ireland. I went in integrated school in 1997. And the important thing was that it is deliberately inclusive of people from Protestant backgrounds, Catholic backgrounds, no religion or other religions. And we also see that not just within the school body, but across the staff and the board of governors. Integrated education is a grassroots parent-led movement. And it's amazing to see how far we've come in the past 25 years since it was enshrined

in the Good Friday Agreement. But a lot of that progress has been led by people and parents themselves. Yeah, we'll come on to that and the people now driving the movement forward. But Aoife, I think you went to an integrated school, didn't you? What was that experience like for you? Yeah, I came up through integrated education, both primary and secondary. So I think I didn't know any different, really. And that was always the, that was the whole experience I had of schooling so when I came across people who hadn't experienced that that was sort of the unusual version for me but

really I think even now Hilary will know specifically I think even now it's only seven percent is it of of children in Northern Ireland who are educated in the integrated system so still the vast majority of um children young people are not in that system. Yes, it's still quite rare then. Hilary, would you like to see more of those types of schools incorporating integrated education in Northern Ireland? Yeah, there is an amazing movement which we're seeing at the minute, which is that some schools who would be single identity are going through a process called transformation, where they are voting within their school body, with the parents, the staff, to transform their school to integrated status. And there is amazing support by the Integrated Education Fund and the Council for Integrated Education to help them be fully informed

about what that means and to have access fully to resources that will help the community understand what that can do for their school. Segregation is incredibly expensive to maintain in Northern Ireland by having single identity schools. Our education system is incredibly under pressure and integrated education is not only would be one way of solving that economic challenge but we're seeing the benefits today of what it brings to society too. Yeah yeah and when we talk about benefits to society let's let's talk about the Good Friday Agreement it's 25 years since that was signed and Hilary you were obviously very young when that happened but what do you

remember about that time about the political climate and what you experienced at a young age? So I was nine when the IRA ceasefire was called, and I had just started at an integrated post-primary school. I was in my first year when the Good Friday Agreement was signed. And I remember how weighty that felt. I think the significance for us all, There's nobody who hasn't been touched in some way by the challenge and the trauma and the pain from the conflict. And what it meant was hope.

It offered us something different. And I know so many people made very difficult personal decisions when on the island, both north and south of the border, there was a vote that people could decide what to implement the good friday agreement and people really took that very seriously so i i hope that our politicians still remember the and can sort of honor that that there were there was a lot of difficult decisions made at the time and 25 years is a long time and at the same time it's it feels like yesterday in some ways to think about that we've come a long way but we've a long way to go yeah that's very

much the message I'm hearing from you and and for you Aoife I think you were involved because your mum was very involved um as part of the women's coalition is that right what do you remember of that time and how momentous did it feel to you well so I was six when the agreement was signed and my mum was involved with the women's coalition Barbara McCabe and she um would have been um busy with all of these things and I would have been too young to really understand what was happening but I do have a sense of being in those spaces you know I think like the people involved the women involved the families involved um had huge responsibility in in what they were trying to contribute to and they were there to ensure that there was representation in that process that there otherwise would not have been and they came from all sorts of um perspectives and

backgrounds and had families that came along with them so I think there was an incredible juggling act for everybody involved at that time. I know that we and I'm sure all the other children of that sort of movement were out on the day of the referendum handing out vote yes stickers and this kind of thing so I have a very strong memory of that day um and you know the odd thing being in spaces where you saw these people that you usually saw on tv and being so young not really being able to connect up all those dots but um I think there was a a really um powerful sense on that day and I suppose like a huge relief that probably rippled out for everybody afterwards yeah even for children yeah for people yeah exactly for people of all ages

Hilary I'd like to bring it to today to modern times and where when we reflect on Northern Ireland now and of course as you know the Stormont Assembly hasn't been sitting for over a year now. What impact is that having on the country? Does it still feel like a peaceful country, Hilary? So a privilege I have is we get to work with a lot of children and young people who we, through our work at Fighting Words, and I encourage to express what they, I suppose, the issues that they hold most dearly. And a lot of the young people are telling us that they are really concerned about the climate crisis. They want to see equality, equal rights, gender identity, bodily autonomy.

They are frustrated with the lack of the NI executive sitting and feel that this is something that is holding them back, that there is a disconnect with this generation who are younger than me and Aoife, they don't remember what it would have been like because they weren't born before the Good Friday Agreement. So this is history in some ways to them and they are feeling a disconnect. What the politicians are most concerned about and their arguments for why they are not going back into the executive and what they are really passionate about and I feel that that is really letting down all of us who are working incredibly hard to improve, to make progress. There are people who have been involved in peacebuilding long before Aoife and I

were around and will be a long time after us. And we just all have to keep going. We all have to make the best of that. And it's very, very challenging, particularly operating in the charity and voluntary sector at the minute, without having a functioning government in place. Yeah. And of course, the younger generations Aoife will be I suppose pivotal to this movement in ensuring that peace continues. Do you find that the younger generation are asking different questions to perhaps your generation are asking and perhaps the generation before you were asking? Yeah I think so and I think off of exactly what Hilary said like that also leads to a real sense of like disillusionment and, you know, lack of hope in that sort of system.

I think there's huge hope and questions around other things. But I think that the disillusionment is very real. And I also think there's a bit of like maybe an intergenerational tension where the questions for different generations are maybe the maybe many of the same questions are on the list but maybe in quite a different uh priority um at a different order of priority and so I think that can create attention because there's maybe even attention around what should we talk about first never mind once you get into those those themes that Hilary mentioned as well as the like legacy um issues that we still have because i think one of the big um i would say like maybe successes is that the tolerance for violence in these 25 years is like massively you know from a time where it was normal to hear about acts of violence on a daily basis

or being near to it and be around it to a place now where like really the tolerance in society for that violence is dramatically lower I think there's so many things that remain yeah questions or issues are to be addressed and I also think it's important to note that like some people for some people in some situations some communities the violence is actually still there is still a violent dynamic to life and I think that that has to also be part of the conversation when we think forwards. Yeah, of course. Hilary, for you, how central are women

to these movements that both you and Aoife are involved in? When you look to the future, what role can women play? Well, I know I have been so inspired by the women like Aoife's mum, who was involved in the Good Friday Agreement and the Northern Ireland Women's Coalition. Baroness May Blood was a founder member of the coalition and she's been a huge advocate for integrated education and sadly passed away last year.

I'm surrounded by talented women who are so committed, so passionate to working in the art sector, the charity and voluntary sector. So much of the peace movement has happened because it happened at kitchen tables and in women's centres and community centres. It's not going to be a lot of women who you will see this week and next week when we are commemorating this. It will be a lot of footage from men at the time, a lot of men who are head of state will be the focus of the media's attention. But the real work continues to happen away from the cameras. Aoife, should women be having a more prominent role, a more visible role in this? I think, you know, I think, yes, really. Like it's not because it is about prominence and visibility.

I think it's exactly what Hilary said. Like I was actually at a peace summit recently and it was organised by the Pat and John Hume Foundation and Community Dialogue, our organisation. And there were action points and things came out of that. And there were statements made about this piece that we have with all of its remaining questions, but the piece that we have 25 years on and who's built that.

And there were four groups mentioned or four sort of titles that struck me and it was women, it was mothers, it was quiet peace builders, names we not know and never know and non-political peace builders and I just think that really struck me out of that day that this is like when we talk about peace there is all of these structural things and policy level things. And absolutely, they're all part of it. But really, this kitchen table thing and the people that are doing that daily grind and who are given of themselves and are acting selflessly and are community leaders and are, you know, really their way of life is to bring together. That is so often, not exclusively, but it's so often those

people. And so I think like there's an inherentness to that being less visible, because it's not about being visible. It's about a way of life. But equally, I think somehow that needs to be addressed and it needs to be talked about and given the weight and the value that it has. Yeah, I'm very much hearing from you how important not just the younger generation and women are to this fight that you're currently involved in, but also the community as a whole and how involved they need to be to help drive change. Thank you very much for speaking to us and for coming on to Women's Hour this morning. That's Aoife Smith, who is the Programme Manager for Community Dialogue

and Hilary Copeland who is Director of Fighting Words Northern Ireland. Thank you to you both. Lots of you getting in touch about who your biggest cheerleader is.

Someone here has said my best cheerleader has always been my mum, Sue Jordan. She always listens so we'll be blown away to hear her name on the radio.

She came from Lancaster last week to look after my two boys whilst I was doing some training in Norway for my PhD. As someone else says, I have three small children, work part time and I'm doing a PhD on the side. A pipe dream, I realise. Above my desk, I have a pinball full of cards from my closest friends. Just looking at them gives me faith in myself and a nudge so that I keep trying to push the boulder up the hill. That's absolutely brilliant. Keep coming in with your suggestions about who your cheerleader is, who supports you, who gives you that extra push of motivation. The text number is 84844. You can WhatsApp as well on 03700100444.

Now, Tanya San was the woman behind the fashion brand Ghost, which launched back in 1984. It became one of the world's biggest independent fashion brands by the 1990s. As famous for its outrageous parties as it was for its beautiful clothing, Tanya has had quite the life. She was an only child to refugee parents and fell into fashion as an unemployed single mother of two, desperately trying to make a living. She describes how after her divorce, she was driven by a relentless determination that at times amazed her. But her success came at a cost as she struggled with drug and alcohol addiction.

Well, now she has written about her adventure-filled life in her new memoir, Free Spirit. Great to have you in the studio with us. Good morning, Tanya. Good morning. Where do we start? Let's start with the fashion, shall we, and how you first became a designer. And like most things in your life, it wasn't a conventional story to get into this industry, was it? Not at all. No, I came back from Brazil in 1975. My children were five and three years old. We had no money. I was living on social, what is it, welfare benefits.

Yep. And I couldn't get any work. I went for a job as a secretary somewhere, and this huge fat man sitting in a chair said, I'll give you a job, honey, if you give me a blowjob. Wow, really? So that was that job out the window. I also tried for MI5, but I had to have four British grandparents, and I didn't.

I only had one. And I bumped into a man in the street I'd met in Brazil and he asked me how I was and I told him I'd be fine if I could find some work. And he said he was importing alpaca jumpers from Peru and if I could sell them, I had a job. So I started selling alpaca jumpers from Peru and if I could sell them I had a job. So I started selling alpaca jumpers which were all the rage at that time. And what do they look like? How would you describe those? They're multi-coloured with llamas across the front of them. Quite thick, quite warm? They're quite, yes, they're warm. And so alpaca jumpers was all the rage for a couple of years. And I sold thousands.

I went to the trade fair in Paris. I got to know all the buyers. I got magazines and researched and found the name of all the retailers in the back of the magazines. And I did really well, but he wasn't very keen on paying me every week and life was tough. And also after a couple of years, alpaca jumpers were not selling as well as they did. It had been a real fad, which didn't last forever. But when I was in Paris, I'd seen a label called Cacahuete, which was fashion sportswear. And there wasn't any fashion sportswear in the UK in the mid, when were we, 1977, 78. So I started my own business, which wasn't easy.

No, it couldn't have been. I think quite a couple of times you worked with business partners that left you with no money? But the beginning of it, I have to tell you, because I went to the bank and I had a thousand pounds a friend of my family's lent me to start a business. And I said to them, can you match this? I'm starting a business. And they said, you're a woman. What do you know about business? Oh, dear. So he showed them a thing or two. Yeah. I'm afraid from spitting in his eye. And I went over the road and they lent me the money. Well, that's graceful of you. You said you kind of saw a gap in the market when you first decided to launch Ghost. What was that gap? What had you seen that wasn't already being serviced? Well, women were dressing in very uncomfortable structured suits.

It was all about power dressing and I wanted the opposite. Women had to function, you know, they had to do the school run, they had to do the washing up, the cleaning, go to meetings, work. So I wanted clothes which were functional, which they could throw in the washing machine, throw in the tumble dryer and didn't need ironing. And were comfortable because with comfort comes self-confidence. It's very difficult to have confidence if you're sort of fighting, you know, in a very, very structured garment. And then you go out for lunch and it's even more structured.

So I wanted fabrics which had natural stretch, which were comfortable and also which suited any shape or size. Was that important for you to fit all women? Yes, that was really important. And the fabric, just tell me more about that because it's interesting how you came to find a fabric that was both comfortable but also convenient in that you didn't have to iron it even after being washed. Well, my very first collection was lambswool, machine washable lambswool. And then I was very lucky. The girl I'd chosen, the woman I'd chosen to be my designer was working in Italy.

And she came to me with this very, very hard Hessian type fabric. And I said, why are you bringing that? And she said, boil it in a saucepan and see what happens. So I boiled it in a saucepan and see what happens. So I boiled it in a saucepan and it shrunk about 40%. But it was a lovely, lovely soft texture and it had natural stretch. So that's how it all started. Wow. Now we have to talk about your life as well, because my goodness, reading your book, you've had so many adventures. You wasn't just trying to be a fashion designer, you actually tried to be an actor and a model as well. Is that right? You also went to university,

you studied history. Tell us about that time and trying those different careers. Well, the happiest day, I'll start with saying the happiest day of my life was when I left school. Wasn't a fan of studying and learning, no? No, I had worked incredibly hard when I first started. I was in the C stream. I wanted to be in the A stream. But they said I got 100% in all my exams, but they said my attitude was wrong. And I think my name was very unusual then.

Everyone was called Susan or Mary or Margaret. They hadn't heard of a Tanya. Plus I was first generation. And so then I developed real attitude and I was so happy to leave school. And I wanted to be an actress, but I had a very awkward experience. I was taken to Rome to do a screen test. And it's a long story. I don't think we have time for here. But suffice it to say that he wanted me to make love with a young man in front of him and his wife before dinner as their pre-dinner entertainment. My goodness me. So when I went back to England, my parents had been desperate for me to go to university.

Because of that, I thought, oh, gosh, you're only going to get somewhere as an actor or actress, you know, if you give sexual favours. So I came back, I went to university, I studied history and then I got married. Wow. OK. And a big part of the book is you talking about your addictions, your addiction to alcohol, your addiction to drugs. What impact did that have on your working life? Well, it created my working life. My mother died very suddenly at the age of 55. I didn't have any other family to help me at all. And I'd started, I was about

to start a business. And yeah, cocaine fueled me. I only had time to sleep about four hours a night. Yeah, it was like fuel. It was like putting petrol in a car. Kept me going, gave me energy. My marriage was on the rocks. My mama died and I was angry and I wanted to fight the world. And how did you overcome that? Well, eventually, you know, it was great for quite a long time. I used it sparingly. I mean, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't going at it all the time, anything like that. But eventually it became too much of a habit. And I went to rehab. I did really well at rehab.

And I came out and I carried on. And I haven't touched anything, including alcohol, now for 21 years. That's brilliant. Congratulations. Thank you. What an achievement that is. Now, you've left fashion. You sold Ghost, didn't you, in 2006. You stayed in fashion for a while, but you've now completely left. Do you miss that industry? Do you miss that world of fashion? I do not miss it at

all. And it would be impossible to do what I did. Why? Now, because of Brexit, my fabrics came from Italy. My manufacturing was in Romania, both EU countries. And I can't, it would be impossible, all the paperwork and the taxes put on fabric and items going backwards and forwards. they would have been too expensive. It would have been too expensive and a nightmare to do. And I'm 78 years old now and I want a nice, quiet life. And have you got that? I have. I have five gorgeous, beautiful grandchildren. My family is all important to me. Having said that, I am talking about the possible collaboration with the Kashmir Company of doing something with

them. Well, when you can give us more details, please do let us know. Tanya San, it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. Thank you for coming on to Woman's Hour, Tanya's book Free Spirit. Her new memoir is out now. Thank you for coming on. Thank you. Thank you. Now, you may have seen the headlines yesterday that the civil rights group Black Equity Organisation are considering legal action over the Home Secretary's decision to drop three recommendations from the independent Windrush inquiry. 30 recommendations were put forward in Wendy Williams' report back in 2018, and the government originally adopted all 30. But since January, they have backtracked on three. Well, those recommendations are the establishment of a migrants commissioner, an increase in the powers of the independent chief inspector of borders and immigration and the running of reconciliation events.

The Black Equity Organization is seeking a judicial review as it believes that the Home Secretary's decision is, in their words, unlawful. I'm joined now by the Chief Executive of the Black Equity Organisation, Dr. Vanda Viporska. Good morning to you, Vanda. We'll come on to the individual recommendations in just a moment. But first, just tell us why are you seeking this judicial review and why now when the three recommendations were dropped all the way back in January? Thank you. Good morning. We're seeking this now because we have already sent, you know, our chair of BEO, Dame Vivian Hunt, had sent a letter in February to the Home Secretary. We then followed that up with a freedom of information request and we received no answer to the letter and we were told that there couldn't be a freedom that the freedom of information request wouldn't be responded to because it would cost around 600

pounds so we've really tried to to make sure that there is open dialogue to ask the Home Secretary you know please don't renege on this this is absolutely vital in terms of the relationships with our black communities and with Windrush survivors and their families so you know we feel at this point we have no other option really and guided by survivors and communities, we have taken this decision. We've issued a pre-action protocol, which is the first step, which means, you know, we again are trying to open up dialogue and say the Home Office made the commitment to all of the recommendations

that Wendy Williams put forward. And we just want the Home Office and the government to honour those pledges. You know, we feel this is the least they can do, given everything that our Windrush elders have been through. Yeah, you use the word vital. Let's go through those recommendations and briefly, because there's three that have been dropped. As I mentioned back in January, one of those is the running of reconciliation events. Why do you believe those events would be so crucial? Well, I think we all recognise that when there is conflict,

reconciliation is the answer and bringing groups together, I think particularly in this case, because the public was so aghast at what had happened, is really vital not just for the Windrush survivors and their families, but to ensure that the Home Office has an understanding of what these families have been through and so they can offer suggestions and advice, you know, as the people best placed to do so, as to what the Home Office can do to make sure that this doesn't ever happen again.

But I think also it's important for the wider community and for society to know that the Home Office is listening. The Home Office itself said that they were open to this, that they regarded this as absolutely crucial. So they recognised that they had a problem with the culture of the Home Office, and that this is really for their benefit. So you know, this is absolutely vital to give those people a voice that they so richly deserve, but also so that the Home Office can learn so that this doesn't happen again. Yeah, in terms of the Home Office, they say they've already run over 200 public engagement and outreach events, which provides opportunities for individuals to talk to

senior officials about their treatment. Now, another recommendation that was dropped was the establishment of a migrants commissioner. What would that role have achieved? Well, I think we can all agree that the debates on migration and at the moment are really not very healthy, let's just say. It's a very charged discussion space, isn't it? And I think, you know, it has been politicised by various governments of all hues. Let's be honest about this. So having a migrants commissioner means that people who have had adverse experiences, people who have had problems with the system, can actually have a focal point to go to, and the Migrants Commissioner can represent migrants.

And I think that's really crucial to have, because it provides another external body that can take the evidence, that can listen to people, that people feel that they can go to. At the moment, the only option really is to go through the Home Office's system itself. So I think having a Migrants Commissioner would be of benefit, obviously, to the Windrush survivors and their families. But importantly, going forward, as we see different policies being enacted by the Home Office, it provides that anchor so that people feel that there is one person there that can take those concerns forward. And the third and final recommendation that was struck was the role and remit of the independent chief inspector of borders and immigration. Why would you want to have seen that, the review of that? Why would you want to have seen that? How would that help the situation? Well, I think a review of that role, because obviously, we are facing, you know, more issues

in terms of migration, and border control is really, really welcomed. And, you know, it was part of the recommendations. It was also part of the improvement programme that was set up by the Home Office. The Home Office itself said that it wanted to review that role because that independent scrutiny and accountability is really quite crucial as we've seen the Home Office. At the moment, what we're seeing really is the Home Office running the Windrush compensation scheme, failing to run it properly. We've had people who have died before they've got compensation, sadly. And so we can't really have them marking their own homework. And they themselves recognise that really have them marking their own homework. And they themselves recognise that they need to change their culture,

that they need to have more independent scrutiny. And that was what we heard from Priti Patel previously. The Home Office have actually said that external and internal scrutiny will be provided by the Windrush Working Group and a new independent examiner for complaints. Is that not enough for you? Do you not feel that goes some way into rectifying that issue? Well, I think there are two points here. I think that the really crucial point is that the Home Office agreed with all of the recommendations and said they would implement them and came up with an implementation plan and agreed to implement

that. The second point I think with the IEC is that again what we see is really the you know shutting the door after the horse has bolted because what we're seeing is you can make a complaint. What we want to see is we want to see prevention rather than people having to go through the horrific experiences that they've been through and then being able to complain at the end of it. With a migrants commissioner with more independent scrutiny, we would hopefully be able to prevent some of the disasters that have happened already. Yeah, just go into a bit more detail about some particular stories, because your organisation delivered a letter to Downing Street yesterday. Tell us what it said and who signed it. And then we can talk about Glenda Caesar and her particular story.

Yeah, so yesterday, I was honoured to be joined by Patrick Vernon, a prominent Windrush campaigner and for Windrush survivors who have tirelessly, you know, become campaigners have raised the profile have answered endless calls for media and really, you know, made sure that this this has not gone away. So we delivered a letter to the prime minister to say, please, can your government just keep its promises? You know, all we're asking for and all the survivors are asking for and all the community is asking for is for the government to keep the promises that the government made.

You know, this is not complicated. But we also think that it does set a dangerous precedent because I think the public can quite rightly expect that when ministers make a promise that they keep that promise and they deliver on it. So it's not just about the Windrush situation, the Windrush scandal and the survivors. It's also got wider implications for society. So our letter was signed by a number of community groups. It was signed by survivors. It was signed by a number of community groups. It was signed by survivors. It was signed by

a number of prominent women. And one of those was Glenda. What's her story? Because she came here, I think, three years old, wasn't it, from Dominica and was working in the NHS for a number of years. Yeah. And I'm going to read some of Glenda's words because I believe, you know, this is about her and her voice. So she said, I came here as a baby and I lived here my whole life. It affected me really badly. I contemplated suicide one time because it affected myself and my younger son, who was born in 1988. I understand the trauma that people are going through now

and people disbelieving you like you've done something wrong. It was legislation that was not put in place properly. And she lost her job at a GP practice, and for 10 years, she couldn't work. And she had no recourse to welfare and benefits. She got into debt. I mean, you can imagine the trauma of that, you know, and having been here with children. And this is just such an awful experience. As you say, she contemplated suicide. Now, this is the human story. That is a powerful testimony. It is a powerful testimony.

And, you know, this is one woman who took up the cudgels and who said, I'm not going to let them beat me. I'm going to, you know, and yesterday at the vigil in Brixton, it was really powerful to hear her say, if you don't have the courage to come forward, I will be your voice. And that, I think, is a spirit of our Windrush elders. So this year will be the 75th anniversary of the arrival of passengers of the Windrush to the UK. My grandparents came over from Jamaica in the 50s, early 50s. How are you planning to commemorate it? Because I know it's a big deal for not just yourselves, but for an entire generation of Windrush people that came over from the Caribbean? Well, yes, I mean, I think we're on to Windrush fourth generation by now.

Yes, I think we are. The youngsters. Yes. You know, my father came over in Windrush in the later wave. So, you know, it's very personal for me as well from Barbados. And so there are a number of events up and down the country. There's a Windrush steering group that are trying to coordinate that. There'll be lots of events in communities.

We're hoping to support some of that as well and we are, well, I mean, I would say unpredictably but I think there's a link here. We are going to have a conference on black family history because, A, we believe that, you know, we have very much been under the impression that we can't find our family history, because, A, we believe that, you know, we have very much been under the impression that we can't find our family roots, we can't find our documentation, very, very relevant to Windrush. And so what we want to do is support people, among other events, but this particular event,

to support black communities to start looking at their family history, to pass on those stories, and to make sure that we don't lose our history because people without a history, you know, are cut adrift. So that's one of our smaller contributions. But we will be supporting groups across the country to celebrate. That's really important. What is a tree without roots? Absolutely. History is very, very important.

Vanda, thank you very much. Now, a Home Office spokesperson gave us this statement. They said, we remain absolutely committed to righting the wrongs of Windrush and have paid or offered more than £64 million in compensation

to the people affected. We are making good progress towards the vast majority of recommendations from Wendy Williams' report and believe there are more meaningful ways of achieving the intent of a very small number of others. Through this work, we will make sure that similar injustices

can never be repeated and are creating a Home Office worthy of every community it serves. The Home Secretary continues to co-host Windrush Working Group meetings to discuss how we can work together to drive further improvements. Of course, I think this is an issue that we will be talking for many weeks to come here on Woman's Hour. A big thank you to Dr. Vanda Viporska for joining us on the programme this morning. We've had lots of people still getting in touch about who their biggest cheerleaders are. Let's hear from Kate in Peterborough who sent us this voice note. Hi, the person who always stands up for me

is my friend Claire. I've known her since university. I can always rely on her to tell me how it is and make me feel better about myself and she's always there if I ever need her. She'd drop everything, I know she would and that's just reassuring to have a friend like that. I hope I can always be the same for her too. Oh, that is lovely. It's so nice to have someone cheerleading for you, someone in your corner. And I know as much as my sister said she was horrified and embarrassed by me, I'm sure she, some part of her, was grateful, right? Someone else has said, hello there. All I can say is five women are my cheerleaders.

They've all seen me through the toughest times and encouraged me to fulfill my dreams. My mum, my sister Claire, my amazing friend Leslie and my superpowered daughters, Louisa and Polly. That's absolutely lovely. Love hearing all your stories about who your biggest supporters are and who encourages you to achieve something that maybe you wouldn't have achieved before. Now on to my next guest, who is Angie Thomas, the best-selling author of The Hate U Give, which was her debut novel published back in 2017. It centres around 16-year-old Star, who is traumatised and ultimately radicalised by the police brutality which kills her friend. It also explores the gang and drug-related violence she

sees in her neighbourhood. Now, Angie has turned her hand to writing for younger readers with her new book, Nick Blake and the Remarkables. It invites readers into the magical world of 12-year-old Nick Blake and her father, who are referred to as Remarkables living in the unremarkable world. It follows Nick on her quest to find a mysterious tool and clear her father's name. Angie, so good to have you on Woman's Hour. I know you are live right now from Atlanta in the US. You've woken up at silly o'clock for us here. Much appreciated. And this is your first UK broadcast interview about your new book.

Great to have you on the show. Oh, thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. If I had to get up for anybody, it would be you all. So thank you. Love to hear that. So tell us, what is a remarkable?

And tell us more about this world of Nick Blake. Well, a remarkable is a person with what we would call maybe a supernatural ability or a magical ability of some sort. Vampires would be considered remarkable. Werewolves would be considered remarkable. But for Nick and her father, they're what we call manifestors, which is a bit different than a wizard or a witch. It's someone with a God-given born power in which they can do things that are a bit more powerful than magic, a bit stronger than magic. And she descends from enslaved folks who found out that they had this ability. Wow. That does sound like magic. Okay. Why did you decide to write for younger audiences after your previous books weren't really aimed at that age group at

all, really? Right. I was inspired to do it by the kids themselves. I had so many young people who reached out to me saying they wanted to read The Hate U Give, but their parents thought they were a bit too young for it. And I respect that. I understand that, you know, there are some things parents wish to shield their children from, I get that. But there are some things children still want to discuss. And I think we can still have these conversations, even in an age appropriate manner, even in a fantasy book. So I knew I wanted to write for them. But I wanted to write something fun and adventurous, but I still wanted to be able to bring in conversations about the slave trade, bring in conversations about police brutality, bring in conversations about Emmett Till, the young man who was killed in Mississippi in 1955. So as much as it's about fantasy and as much as it's about magic and

other worldness, it's also about what's happening in real life right now to the African-American community. Absolutely. It absolutely is. I really wanted to still, even in the midst of all of this fun and adventure and magic, I still wanted to have these conversations because I felt like I would be doing my young readers a disservice if I didn't pose the question, okay, if there are Black people with this magical ability, why haven't they stopped some things? Where are they? So it was fun to still bring those things into the fold.

But it was important to still bring those things into the fold. OK, so tell us about the main character, Nick, a young black girl. She seems headstrong, but also very sensitive. Where did that inspiration come for her character? Nick is inspired by several people. I would even say young Angie, because at 12 years old, young Angie thought she understood the world. And then suddenly she did not understand the world. I think that's that's just true for 12 year olds, period.

I've definitely been there. But she was also inspired by a dear friend of mine named Nick Stone, who is an author. But, too, she was inspired by so many of the young women I've met over the years who they want to change the world. They're ready to change the world. But they sometimes feel powerless to do it. So even though Nick has this ability, this power, this gift, she still feels powerless because she's recognizing that the world isn't everything she thought it was. And she wonders what's her place in it. So that's that's something I think a lot of young people can identify with and not so young people. Yeah, totally. That is so relatable. Now you explore this dynamic between father and daughter and their relationship. So between Nick and her dad, Maxwell, why did you decide to hone in on that particular dynamic? Oh, it was so important for me to do that. Because,

you know, so often there's this assumption, especially here in America, that black fathers aren't involved in their children's lives. And that is a lie. It's a stereotype. In fact, studies show, especially here in America, that black fathers are some of the most involved in their children's lives out of all demographics. And so I always want to fight back against those stereotypes and those negative stereotypes. And I really too wanted the heart of this story to be about family and to be about love even in the midst of all this adventure and stuff it's about family and it's about love and it's about this young girl's love for her father and what she considers to be an unjust situation so it's about injustice it's about love it's about family it's really an Angie Thomas book

throughout even even in this sense yeah of course because the topics that you're discussing now were in your debut novel uh The Hate You Give and when you spoke to us last time here on on Woman's Hour and we discussed your book you explained how it had been banned in some schools in the United States has anything changed has the way people perceive that novel changed at all since we last spoke to you? It's been a bit of both. There are a lot of people who have found the book and fell in love with the book because of the ban. But then there are also a lot more people who are now determined to ban the book without actually reading the book. There are a lot of organizations here in the States now that are focused on what they call parental rights

as far as books and what their kids read. And I understand parents want to make sure their kids are reading what they theme are appropriate books. But the unfortunate thing is a lot of the books that are being targeted are books by marginalized authors, Black authors, people of color, LGBTQIA authors.

And what is happening is they are picking and choosing bits and pieces of books, putting those bits and pieces online and using that as a reason to judge the entire book and call for it to be banned. So book banning has increased here in the States, honestly, in schools. And even it's now tried to reach public libraries. There have been attempts to remove my book from public libraries. And I'm like, what country are we in? What year are we in? But even in the midst of that, it's also led to people finding the book and pushing back

and saying, no, you have it wrong. That's not what this book is about. Well, yeah, because it still sits on the york times bestseller list six years after it was first published it was a number one bestseller here in the uk as well i should add so do you how do you deal with that backlash even though it's brought about success as well how do you marry the two you You know, I find I focus on the good. I focus on the fact that the funny thing is, if you ban a book, especially in a school, it only makes the young person want to read it more and they seek it out anyway. You know, I've had so many kids who reached out to me and said, oh, they banned it in

my school district. But I went and found it myself because I wanted to know what the deal was. But also, too, I try my best to support the people who are doing the good fight, and that's the educators. Educators are in battle right now here in the States when it comes to books. Librarians are in the fight for their lives in the States when it comes to books. So I'm trying my best to speak up and speak out for them. But I also want to remind people, too, I constantly want to remind people that when you're banning books, you're telling the young people who see themselves in these books that there's something wrong with you, that nobody should know about you, that you should be silent, that you should be invisible.

And that's the issue I have with book banning more than anything. And I want to continue to write books that young people can see themselves in, even when it makes the adults in their lives uncomfortable. What a way to end that interview. Angie Thomas, your new book, Nick Blake and the Remarkables, is out now. Best of luck with that. Here's hoping for another bestseller for you, Angie. Thank you. Thank you. So many people getting in touch about their cheerleaders. This message has come in. Best support came from my colleagues, predominantly women, on the paediatric intensive care unit in Leeds. Over 25 years, their clinical input, education input, but their kindness in guiding through a career in a critical care environment ensured our children received the best care. Miss them now as I'm retired. That's from

Andy. Thank you for getting in touch. Nuala will be back with a very special Woman's Hour programme on Monday. It's all about artificial intelligence. She'll be speaking to women experts in the field. That's from Monday at 10. And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Lucy Worsley, and I want to tell you about Lady Killers from BBC Radio 4. It's a programme that mixes true crime with history, but with a twist. With our all-female team of experts, I am re-examining the crimes committed by murderesses in the past

through the eyes of 21st century feminists. What can we learn from these women and would it be any different today? Lady Killers. Listen first on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.