Woman's Hour - Lissie Harper’s campaign, body positivity in the age of Covid, Toddler tantrums and the other Tchaikovsky.

Episode Date: September 8, 2020

PC Andrew Harper’s widow Lissie says she has cabinet support for a new law – under which anyone who kills an emergency services worker would be jailed for life. PC Andrew Harper was killed last summer in the line of duty. The three teenagers who were responsible for his death were jailed for manslaughter. She joins Jane to talk about why she’s campaigning for a new law – under which anyone who kills an emergency services worker would be jailed for life. Blogger Stephanie Yeboah has been a part of the fat acceptance and body positive movement for years. Her first book – ‘Fattily Ever After’ – is a self-help guide and love letter to black, plus size women everywhere. As new figures emerge about the higher risk Covid 19 has on obese people, She tells Jane about the book and its message Afraid of your toddler? We hear from a new TV supernanny who thinks parents have lost their grip on their children’s behaviour. Do you struggle to say no to you toddler for fear of an embarrassing temper tantrum? Did lockdown affect how you discipline your kids? Laura Amies is the nanny on the Channel 5 show Toddlers Behaving (Very) Badly and Laverne Antrobus, is a child psychologist at the Tavistock Clinic Plus the real life story of visionary lesbian activist Chris Tchaikovsky from her time as leader of criminal gang The Happy Firm, through stints behind bars, to her founding of Women In PrisonPresenter Jane Garvey Producer Henrietta Harrison.PHOTO; Jason Bye/MartisMedia

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, this is Jane Garvey and welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. It's Tuesday the 8th of September 2020. Good morning, welcome to the programme. Today, Stephanie Yeboah will talk about her new book, Fatally Ever After. It's about body positivity and Stephanie argues very powerfully that body positivity in the past tends to be associated only with white women. So, Stephanie, on the programme this morning. How has your parenting been in lockdown?

Honestly, if you have a toddler, what's their behaviour been like? Have you had to give in? Have things got worse? And are you really missing playgroups, which I know largely are closed at the moment, have had to be shut down? So let us know how that's been going for you at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter. You can email the programme via our website. And we'll also talk about the life and times of a woman, a very significant woman, in women's prison reform, Chris Tchaikovsky. There was a play about her on Radio 4 a week or so ago. And we'll just explore a little bit more about her life. The play, if you want to hear it, was called The Other Tchaikovsky.

And you can find it, of course, on BBC Sounds. Now, PC Andrew Harper was killed last summer after he and a colleague responded to reports of a stolen quad bike. Three teenagers were jailed for manslaughter for their part in his killing. All have lodged appeals. And, of course, the Attorney General is also appealing under the unduly lenient sentence scheme. Lissy Harper is Andrew's widow. She is campaigning for a new law for mandatory life sentences for anybody who kills an emergency services worker. Last week, she had a meeting with the Home Secretary and the Justice Secretary,

Robert Buckland, and she joins us now. Lissy, good morning to you. Good morning. I think many of our listeners will really wonder how you are putting yourself through all this, Lissy. So can you begin to explain that? I think, you know, it's been a year now and, you know, it doesn't get easier. The grief is a journey that we kind of we have to cope with and learn how to deal with. But this has given me something really positive to focus on and something I've become really determined to to see it through.

You know, just doing something for people in the future who might find themselves in this position is really important to me now. But this is a very different life you're now inhabiting, isn't it? In all sorts of ways. You're now somebody who gets a meeting with Priti Patel, the Home Secretary. Yeah, it's a whole new world, to be honest. i've kind of been thrown into it but i'm learning a lot and and meeting with these people is you know just another step towards our goal really well we'll talk about your campaign in a moment or two but of course what is just um unforgettably sad about your experience is that you had been married to andrew for such a short time. You'd only been married for a couple of weeks, hadn't you?

Yeah, yeah, it was four weeks. Yeah, it was just a shock, I think, is the main thing. It's not something you expect to have to experience at that time of your life. And it's kind of rocked the foundations of everything for me. But, you know, I feel like I'm finally getting to a point where I can get a little bit of focus. Focus in what sense? In just doing something positive, I think with grief, you have a choice eventually to either let it consume you or you kind of use it to your advantage. And it's a passion, you know, the emotions are so raw. And I don't think that I'd really be doing this if it wasn't for my experience with grief and also with the court system.

Can you just reassure people, though, that, Lyssa, you are getting help and support to get you through this? Oh, I've got, you know, so much support. You know, my family and my friends are incredible. And also the support I've had from the police force and the police federation has just been really helpful to me to actually get through this and also I've had I've had many many messages of support from the public and and other police officers and you know paramedics and and all kinds of emergency workers and just people wanting to offer their support really. I know you did sit through some though not all of the trial. What was that like for you? The trial was really an endurance. You know you start off

thinking that you know it's going to be awful but you think that you'll get some kind of closure or justice or something at the end of it and it is exhausting I think anyone who's been in the same situation will know that it is a real effort to even get yourself there but to sit through it is really awful but you do feel a sense of duty that you you want to be there and you want to kind of witness what's happening and to get the justice that we wanted, which unfortunately didn't come. You say exhausting. Most of us, of course, have never been in a position anything like the one that you were in then. What is the most tiring aspect of it all?

I think having to deal with those emotions anyway, whether you're going to court or just, you know, at home is a real battle. You know, in the early days, just getting out of bed is a challenge. And if you manage to do that and get dressed and carry on with some kind of normality is an achievement, I think. But eventually, you know, you have to start living again and doing that whilst putting on a little bit of a front, you know, you can't burst into tears all the time and you've got to get some sort of normality back and it is incredibly draining. What was it like for you when you saw the teenagers in court? Can you describe that?

The first moment I saw them, I remember thinking, it's, you know, you've taken Andrew's life and that's a really hard thing to deal with. Just the, you know, disdain and the fact that there was no remorse is sickening um to think that you know that's the lifestyle that they are happily you know and will happily admit that they live and as a result of that Andrew's now no longer here now they were not convicted of murder um they were convicted of manslaughter that for I think, was something you found extremely hard to bear. Yes. I mean, this is the way that our justice system works and we have juries and they have to come to a decision, but it's not the one that we were expecting or you know thought was was right well the prosecution of course had to convince

the jury that they intended to kill Andrew and obviously they they did not convince the jury of that yeah I think the way that it works is you know the paths they have to go down and the decisions they have to reach are very complicated which I've you know now realized having experienced it but ultimately I think myself Andrew's family and many many people in the rest of the country feel differently and feel that you know the evidence was overwhelming to say that they did know but obviously you know that that's my opinion and that's that's a different situation well your campaign for um a law that would mean a mandatory life sentence for anybody who kills any sort of emergency worker so somebody a fire somebody who works for the fire service an ambulance worker um a police officer in way, it is extraordinary that they should

need to be protected from abuse of any kind, isn't it? Actually, when you think about it, it's just absurd. It is. And the reports of the attacks and abuse that they're experiencing are actually really common. And I don't think many of us actually realise that. It's awful because they've chosen to do that job to protect people and they're not getting that protection themselves. No. Did you get a, well I'm sure you got a warm reception from both Priti Patel and Robert Buckland but what can they promise you? What can they offer you? Well I was pleasantly surprised actually by the meeting that we had and just how on board they are. And they did say, you know, we're here for you, we're supportive and that's all we can really be hopeful for. But in practice, what does that mean? country um that's kind of his domain so he said that he will go away and get his um civil servants

to to kind of look into the finer details and work out how we're going to do it and how it will best work and and get back to us on that so we're you know we're going to hold him to that and is there any part of you lissy that worries that you are in a very vulnerable place at the moment you've been through an appalling experience is there any part of you that worries that you are in a very vulnerable place at the moment. You've been through an appalling experience. Is there any part of you that worries that you might be being used in any way? No, no, because this is my decision and this is something that I've come up with and I've taken on and it's something I'm doing for all of the emergency services

and also my husband. Who I'm sure would have been incredibly proud of you. I hope so, yeah. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us. Thank you so much. I will speak, I'm sure, on behalf of every single person listening that we just wish you the very best, Lissy. Thank you.

Thank you. That's Lissy Harper, who is the widow of Andrew Harper. It's 12 and a half minutes past 10. Good morning to you. This is Woman's Hour. Stephanie Yeboah is a blogger and she's been part of the Fat Acceptance and Body Positive movement

for quite a few years now. Her first book is out now. It's called Fatterly Ever After and it's described pithily as a self-help guide and love letter to black plus-size women everywhere. And Stephanie joins us now. Good morning to you stephanie good morning so i said at the start that i think it's your belief and you can contradict me if i got it wrong that the body positive movement has been somewhat hijacked

by white women did i get that right yes so in a sense for once yeah so basically it's the body positivity movement was created in part in the majority of plus-size black women specifically in America and then it slowly came over to the UK and as we began to see the rise in body positivity and and how great it was it was going for people whose bodies do not have the same privileges as everybody else we found that brands and publications and and things of that nature started highlighting women within the movement who did not look like us they started using women whose bodies kind of tailored that were tailored more towards what society thought was beautiful. So mostly smaller women and white women as well. OK, we've all seen those ads, I think, but I may as well describe them.

You will have a so-called range of body sizes and you can guarantee that somewhere in that image will be a, let's say, a size 14 woman, possibly light skinned mixed race woman? Is that what you're thinking of? Yes. So for the most part, during 2015 to about now, we've seen loads of advertisements and campaigns for body positivity. But what we found is that they were featuring predominantly sort of size 12, size 14 white women. And then in a bid to be diverse, they would sometimes use somebody that was mixed race or lighter skinned who was like a size 16, just to, you know, sort of sprinkle a bit of colouring like parsley. And what would you like to see? I would like to see a lot more diversity, I think, when it comes to body positivity.

I think it needs to go back to what the movement was originally supposed to be. And it was a movement specifically created by larger fat women for fat women and for people whose bodies do not have the same societal privileges as everybody else. It was a safe space for us to, you know, talk about our self-love journeys and talk about clothing that we could buy and, you know, celebrate our bodies, celebrate our beauty. And now it's sort of been taken away in a bid to be a lot more, you know, white centric, white focused. Can I just ask you about the societal privileges that you that you would, well, you believe passionately that I have that you don't. Just for the benefit of our audience, what what are you talking about? Sure. So when I say societal privileges, it means it's not me saying that because somebody is smaller, they automatically feel better in themselves.

Because I do believe that regardless of the size you are, you can still have for instance, and automatically, you know, pick up clothes in their size. It's bodies that don't have the hassle of being stared at, being filmed, being turned into a meme, having your picture taken when you're eaten, having people not want to sit next to you on public transport. So it's all of these little things that I think people take for granted when you're in a smaller bodies. But when you're bigger, you have the spotlight on you negatively almost all the time. So there have been plenty of times when I've been in a restaurant with friends, and I've seen people taking pictures of me eating, but they forgot, they forgot to turn off the flash so I can see when they're you know taking pictures and you know all of these little things sorry I mean I people take pictures of you eating yeah and then they turn it into memes or they send it to their friends and there have been a few times when I have confronted people um about

this and like shouted at them in public in the street. It's happened to plus size friends of mine when we've been walking like on Oxford Street. We've had people actually doing Instagram live videos of like me and my friends just walking across the street and they've been laughing and joking. And we've had to, you know, confront them quite viciously saying this is not right. This is not cool in the book you also talk and i this resonated with me a lot about the and i felt slightly embarrassed about it but the four well more than slightly the four most common stereotypical character tropes we see on television of the larger black woman can you just talk us through well if we haven't got time for all of them certainly a couple can i begin with the so-called Black Mama Fat character? Yeah, so that was a character that was really spurned by Hattie

McDaniel in Gone With the Wind. So she played a slave or a servant. And what we found was that throughout Hollywood and throughout sort of TV and movies, we see a lot of roles being played by larger plus-size women as subservient roles as slaves um as um supporting characters who are who have no character arc but to help the main character who is normally white achieve their goal whether it's an emotional goal or a physical goal um we're always being cast as the help we see it in cartoons with things like you know tom and jerry you've got the the the servant or the the housemaid who is uh one of the protagonists in that um so we see a lot of that in hollywood we also have another trope which is the the the lady who nothing ever nothing positive ever happens so it's like all my life i've had to

fight so it's a struggle character you know they if it's not an issue with their weight then it's an issue with their color or it's an issue with their self-esteem or job issues um their whole character arc revolves around trying to get out of some kind of struggle um and then we have the hypersexual fat black character who is a man eater and is very kind of you know animalistic and feral and hypersexual um and we don't seem to have characters that are just normal human beings that have nice jobs and a nice relationship and has great friends and all of that stuff. And is there an equivalent for men of colour? Um, that is a good question. I think when we think about men of colour, I mean, there isn't really a lot. When I think about roles, I often find that plus size men who are black normally play the gangsters or they play the security men or they play the muscle or they play something which really plays into their physicality of protecting somebody or getting money for somebody or kind of being played in those stereotypical kind of gangsterish kind of roles um you know we have had a couple of like really good

examples like uncle phil in fresh prince of bel-air you know he is a great uh a great character and so you do have the odd spots of uh characters where they are played in um sitcoms where they are like the really fun and caring dads um but for the most part when we see in later tv shows and movies they always seem to play the part of you know the the sidekick to the the character the bad character can i also ask you about the current situation uh we do live in to put it mildly challenging times we know too that people like yourself have enormous influence over younger people and that rates of Covid are going up amongst young people at the moment and they are driving the rise in cases. Is this something that concerns you and is it something that you feel that you could get involved in in terms of giving out a message? Yeah, definitely. I think as somebody, so I've got asthma, so I'm kind of, I guess, high risk. So I've really been trying as much as possible to try and stay safe and socially, sort of socially distanced. And so I know that with the opening of the holiday destinations, I'm seeing that a lot of people are going on holiday and bringing COVID back and taking it out. And I just think it's so important to adhere to the social distancing still.

Like we are not out of the woods yet. And I know that, you know, schools are going to be opening soon. And I think it's more important than ever to really practice that social distancing aspect. Still wash your hands. I don't want people to like stop slacking on that just because, you know, the UK is a bit more open you know hand wash all of those things well I think it is a bit more open but hence the rise in cases and you know this is a difficult question in some ways but I'd be irresponsible if I didn't ask it you are body

positive and you talk and you've every right to to be that way but we do know that there is a link between being overweight and a higher risk of really suffering with COVID. Does that not concern you? Well, I don't think it does only because it's only 7% of people who have passed away who have been plus size. So it's less than 10% of people have died because of, you know, their weight. And I think for me, when it comes to body positivity, I think a lot of people don't understand what we're trying to do. So a lot of people think that we are glamorizing or promoting obesity, which isn't the case and has never been the case for body positivity. What we are saying is if you do happen to find yourself being big or large, you don't have to consider yourself less than other people.

You don't have to stop loving yourself and you don't have to, you know, think of yourself as disgusting. So it's not us encouraging a certain way. It's saying if you are a certain way, you don't have to beat yourself up about it. You're still beautiful. And nobody, nobody has the right to treat you in the way that you described earlier in our conversation. Yes, exactly. Absolutely. And I think, you know, for us, it's not a case of us denying that there is a link between it. Of course, you know, it would be ignorant for people like us within the body positive community to say, oh, there's absolutely, you know, no link between this and our weight. But I think also it's so important to strain that fat people are not a monolith.

We are not the same. And I think sometimes the media like to portray all plus size people as being the same unhealthy people that sit down in their homes and do nothing but eat but there are so many of us that are healthy there are so many of us that you know they're trained we we can um we exercise we can eat healthily we can do our day-to-day runnings without you know going out of breath or or feeling really sick um those of us like myself who have never been sick, you know, or had anything to do with health-related issues. And so I think it's important not to tar all people who may look the same as the same. It's very dangerous to judge somebody's health

based on how they look. Because of course you can have smaller people who can have a host of health issues, but because they may have a six pack, they are judged as automatically being healthy. And I think it's just important not to assume that every single person is going to have diabetes or have heart problems, because that's simply not the case. And there are loads of studies to prove that. Can I just ask you a quick question about woman and the way you spell it in the book? Because this is something that will really interest our listeners. And I guess it will probably,

I could be wrong, probably divide on age lines, how they regard this. But just explain how you spell woman and why you do it that way, Stephanie. Yeah, sure. So in the book, I spell it W-O-M-X-N. And that is a spelling that is predominantly used within the intersectional feminist movement. So I was very intentional in spelling it that way because not only does it remove the kind of patriarchal ties between you know women with the men in it but it also includes women of color black women trans women because what we find is when it comes to feminism again much like body positivity it is very white centric it's very white focused hence the term white feminism that is its own term you know it it sometimes fails to include women of colour or trans women or just any women that isn't a cis white female and so I was very intentional

in spelling it that way in order to be more inclusive to the broad spectrum of women and females you know who who this can apply to. Interesting to talk to you thank you very much Stephanie good to have you on the programme. Take care of yourself. Stephanie Yeboah, her book is called Fatterly Ever After. Now, later this week, Laura Bates is on the programme talking to Jenny.

She, of course, is the founder of Everyday Sexism. She has a new book out and you can hear from her later on this week. What else have we got? Are women high up in the NHS? That's going to be a topic for conversation with Jenny on Women's Hour tomorrow morning. Now, toddlers.

Members of the toddling community can be a little challenging. I certainly found that. And lockdown won't have made, well, won't have made being with toddlers any easier, will it? Particularly as well, of course, because playgroups haven't been around.

They haven't been able to operate. Laura Ames is the nanny on a new Channel 5 show called Toddlers Behaving Very Badly. Laura, hello, good morning to you. Hello, good morning. I think we've got a little clip, actually, of you in action. Here we go. Let's hear it. Ivy's typical kind of behaviour would be slapping.

How long? Ivy! Scratching. Let go. Throwing things. Ivy's typical kind of behaviour would be slapping. Hello! Ivy! Scratching. Let go! Throwing things. No! Ivy, I said no. Tantrums at any opportunity.

Ivy. Go inside. If she doesn't get her own way, that's it. I'd definitely dread them moments of taking her out. I kind of know what's coming, so I know it's going to happen at some point. I don't know what. Oh bless, that was little Ivy. It was.

We didn't actually hear from you there Laura but that was Ivy's slightly beleaguered mother. Also with us Laverne Antrobus welcome guest on the programme always child psychologist at the Ivy's slightly beleaguered mother. Also with us, Laverne Antrobus. Welcome guest on the programme always, child psychologist at the Tavistock Clinic. Laverne, hello, good morning to you. Hi, good morning.

I always have a special place in my heart for you because you were the last person I interviewed in real life. I was, yes. When was that? Can you remember that? Was that March or April? It was in March and we were just about to go into the lockdown situation. Yes.

I remember it well, Jane. Yeah, a real human being. Oh, well, there we go. Well, I've got lots to talk to you into the lockdown situation. Yes. I remember it well, Jane. Yeah, a real human being. Oh, well, there we go. Well, I've got lots to talk to you about in a moment or two. Laura, Ivy is, she is particularly challenging, but does every child go through that sort of phase at some point? Yeah, I think Ivy was, I hope Molly wouldn't mind me saying, an example of what...

Yes, Molly was Ivy's mum and I think Ivy is a great example of what can happen if you allow that you know the typical toddler tantrum to get a little out of hand and tantrums are you know one of the most common behaviors but if you let them kind of get away with themselves you are likely going to end up in a situation like ivy's yes okay um lavan what is a tantrum well i think that i would also agree with laura that a tantrum is part of a sort of developmental pathway you know we expect children to go through temper tantrums and actually for me it's about the moment they realize they're slightly separate from their parent, whoever that might be, and that they have their own sort of ideas

about the world and their wants and their needs. And actually, what they are trying to do in this incredible time is work out, you know, what's in their gift and what they still rely on their parents for. And so, as Laura says, if parents aren't very quickly able to see this behaviour and adapt to it and inform their child that there are certain limits, then it does run away with families and toddlers suddenly get a sort of power base in a family system that really does take hold. Yes, too right. Laura, based on what you know,

and the families you've worked with, has lockdown been a real challenge? Yeah, unfortunately, it has. Basically, whenever there's heightened frustrations in any environment, toddlers really pick up on that. They're quite intuitive. And I think we don't always give them enough credit for how aware of their circumstances and situation they are you know and they don't necessarily communicate as well as an adult but they can largely understand and grasp most things around them so they picked up on the fact that mum and dad are particularly stressed and you know they're not going out as much they're not burning off all of that energy they have. Perhaps screen time's been increased and everybody's been quite confused.

So it's inevitable, really, that the toddlers are confused as well as we all are. But in your experience, what is the worst way to deal with a bad bit of toddler behaviour? I think initially when tantrums break out, parents will obviously say no and they don't want to, you know, encourage them in any way. And they say no and then perhaps they're feeding into it. Sometimes they shout back, that's, you know, only going to add fuel to the fire. But inevitably, once the tantrums have really picked up a pace and the parent has said no and has continued to fuel the fire then ultimately 10 minutes into this tantrum they are giving in and they're giving the child perhaps what it was they wanted in the first place so really all the

child is learning that if they kick up a big enough stink, they are really going to get what they want. So it's basically creating a habit of bad behaviours via rewards. It doesn't mean the tantrums will carry on forever. My mother would be more than capable of telling you about the horrific tantrums I had. And it's literally been getting on for 40 minutes since I last had one. In all seriousness, you don't carry them on in later life, do you? When is the proper age to stop, Laura? Well, once a child has reached, you know, a level of communication where they can express themselves via sentences and are, you know, very aware of their own emotions, they're able to start self-regulating. But that will only happen

if they have a listening ear and somebody that's kind of understanding things from their point of view. And it's the case of the parent working with the child's communication levels. So, you know, you'd hope that kind of around four or five, you'd see a massive improvement in their tantrums. But obviously, children will continue to have the odd one, you know, anything up to kind of eight or nine years old, depending on how you handle them. But they're just much more severe in the toddler phase when they haven't got that communication to back up their frustration. Okay, Laverne, eight or nine and still having tantrums? I think they're sort of flare ups, aren't they? They are moments when a child is sort of trying to suss out the situation and think, well, what can I get away with? Where are my

parents at this moment in time? What are they going to be a little bit susceptible to? And I think the sort of link to the lockdown situation is very, very apt. I think families have been struggling in lots of ways. I think when you've got financial insecurity, lots of people working at home potentially, because you've got multi-generational households sometimes, then the space for children opens up to really test the boundaries. And it's really about boundary setting. I think this is something we say time and time again. But what you're trying to do is help a child shape their own behaviour. And as Laura says, you know, the minute you sort of put it into this arena of,

you know, I'm the person in charge, I'm the person with all the authority, and there's no way of sort of helping a child to say, well, actually, I'm trying to help you with this. It's not just about me being, you know, in the authority position. I'm really trying to understand something that you get the significant change. So do you then, I think you crouch down to your level, do you Laverne, you get in their space in a obviously non-aggressive way and engage with them as calmly as you possibly can? And this is the really hard thing, isn't it? Because, you know, just listening to the clip of Ivy, you know, one sort of, you know, every sense is slightly awakened to feel very, very tense. And so finding yourself

in a more calm moment. For me, it's about understanding the frustration that's going on for the child and trying to really say something about that and say something about it in a way that you're helping the child to see that there's a way of moving past it, that we can get to the next stage, but it's going to take some work and that you're there to help them. I think always offering help is really important. Laura, I think you've said that you genuinely have come across parents who are afraid of their toddlers. Does that mean just afraid of their potential to cause embarrassment in public?

Is that what you're getting at? Yeah, well, it's kind of a mix of that fear of embarrassment. And I have had some parents report that they're afraid that saying no and being firm will actually damage their relationship with their child. Well, can I ask Laverne, will it? Oh, absolutely, absolutely not. But it's the way in which you say it. I think that this is the crux of the matter, because I think parents forget there's a way of having your authority and there's a way of being authoritarian. And being authoritarian brings something that's a little bit tricky, you know, that actually this is a battle and I'm going to win. If you use your authority, that's different. But certainly saying no, what we're trying to do is prepare children

for the classroom. And teachers are going to say no not at the moment this is not what we're doing now every parent wants their child to go into that situation understanding that that is something that happens in life we have to wait for things that we might want i'll come back to you in a second laverne but actually i just want to know from you laura how did you sort out young ivy well i forbid the word no for a little while because, you know, the word no was basically being chanted. So it became completely useless. The word no didn't mean anything. And we focused more on positive language. So whenever Ivy was doing something that was calm and, you know, her and her mum were having a nice time together.

I encouraged a lot of positive narration because a lot of the times that gets ignored. And, you know, you get a minute's peace finally when they're playing nicely. You can breathe. You've got a bit of peace. But actually what you're doing is you're ignoring the good behavior. So then your child gets used to you shouting or chanting the word no, no, no, when their behavior suddenly becomes a little negative. And then, you know, you're in this cycle of ignoring the good and praising the bad, really. So it was just about focusing on the positive aspects of Ivy's behavior.

And once that shift, you know, was made, it was plain to see she just she changed yeah she's probably heading for a career in broadcasting i mean logically that would be it would make sense um good to talk to you thank you very much laura's program toddlers behaving very badly is on my five so it's the extreme version not just badly very badly um laverne just a word from you uh go going back to the subject i mentioned to stephanie uobura about the rise in Covid cases amongst the young and adolescents are going to want to have a social life. You'd be worried if they didn't want one. What can you say to them at the moment about how they conduct themselves safely and responsibly? Well, I think that this is the time, isn't it? This is the moment as we get back to something that feels and looks a little bit more ordinary with schools going back. And I think for teenagers particularly, and probably sort of older young adults, this is the time to also be as vigilant as we've been encouraged

to be. I think that what I've been hearing anecdotally is that teenagers are absolutely wanting to get back out there together and to socialise. Well, the point is they are, they are getting back out there. And that's the problem. But they and to socialise. Well, the point is they are. They are getting back out there and that's the problem. But they need to keep, with the guidance, they need to keep socially distancing. And I have been hearing from some young adolescents that they are managing that. But it's tricky.

It's really hard for them. So they're having to be careful about hugging each other, getting too close, keeping up all of the preventative things around washing their hands and how they're wearing masks. But I think it's about the messaging. We have got to keep the messaging quite strong, that it's not, you know, sort of doesn't fall into this, well, you don't get very ill. So because actually, that might be something they need to keep in mind. But they also need to keep in mind that if they are gathering, they're trying to stick to their social bubbles. And I have have heard from young people that they really are trying to work quite hard to stay in their social bubbles.

Well, let's hope so. Thank you very much, Laverne Antropos, child psychologist at the Tavistock Clinic. And one day we will meet again. I'll meet somebody, hopefully. Now, The Other Tchaikovsky was a play. It was on radio for a week or so ago. The September the 28th, I think, to be absolutely exact. It's still available on BBC Sounds. And it was about the life and times of Chris Tchaikovsky, who was the founder of the organisation Women in Prison. Harriet Maidley wrote The Other Tchaikovsky. Kate Paradine is the CEO of Women in Prison right now. First of all, let's have a quick clip of Chris on Woman's Hour back in 1998, talking about whether it's right or not for a woman to have her baby with her in prison. Let me tell you what happens a couple of months if a woman's been warned that she might be separated from her baby. She sees one of our caseworkers. I get cracking straight onto the phone, talk to the woman, talk to the child protection workers in the prison, get a new compact drawn up and say, OK, to the woman.

Now you've got a chance. No more of this. No more of that. No more bullying. No more aggression. Give the other women a break here. If you want to keep your baby, you've got to keep your head down. You know, do it right. And it's not a question of being cooperative or, you know, being nice to officers. I mean, that is ridiculous. So then if the woman doesn't do that, we then put it to her again that one of two things, either her aggression is completely out of control and she needs some anger management courses or, and it is a consideration that doesn't seem to have been made, she doesn't really want to have her baby with her. And that's a thought too. Chris Tchaikovsky on Woman's Hour in the 1990s. Harriet Maidley, she sounds so measured and sensible, but Chris Tchaikovsky was, I hate the word character, but she was one, wasn't she, without a shadow of a doubt? She really was. Yeah. And it's interesting that you say that, because I think there is so much about her that suggests she's this bundle of contradictions. You know, she's incredibly measured, but she's also sort of had quite a wild life in all sorts of ways.

I was originally drawn to her because of this idea of contradiction, but I actually think there's a lot of coherence in what she was doing in her life. I think she was always pushing against systems. So when she was involved in crime herself, she was sort of pushing against capitalism and the law. You know, she ran a criminal gang who specialised in cashing forged cheques.

But then when she went to prison, she sort of turned her attention to the prison system because she was so shocked by what she saw there. Yeah, well, let's bring Kate in because it was what she witnessed in Holloway, Kate, that inspired her to found women in prison. That's right. And we're still fighting the battle that Chris started all those years ago. Things are actually as bad if not worse for women in prison at the moment especially under Covid-19 and the restrictions there. What would you say about that? So the vast majority of women in prison are there for non-violent offences, often theft, many on remand and the government hasn't acted to reduce the prison population or to enact its early release scheme.

A pitiful number of people have been released and women in particular under that scheme. And so women have been kept in prison many 23 hours a day in their cells without family visits, separation from children, pregnant women also. And we still don't know how many babies

are born in prison every year, but we do know that two babies have died in the last year when they were born in prison. So there is an enormous amount of work that we're still doing that Chris started. She was all about the harm of prison and the fact that community alternatives and support to tackle the root causes of offending and the reasons that women often enter the system, often domestic abuse, mental ill health, substance misuse, poverty, are linked very closely to the offences. And as I say, these are often non-violent offences like theft. We know, Harriet, that Chris did spend some time,

not an enormous amount of time, as a prisoner in Holloway. Holloway, of course, no longer exists, but there was one particularly horrific incident during one of her stints there, wasn't there? Yes. So a woman was found dead in her cell having been burned. And it was rumoured that the alarm bell had been cut so that the staff could sleep. There was a prisoner in the cell next to her who'd heard her sort of screaming for help and nobody came because it's in the middle of the night. So quite kind of appalling neglect there. And a similar incident happened eight years later,

and it was actually that that really galvanised Chris to set up Women in Prison there. I think it had been in the works for a while. But yeah, that was a big sort of turning point. Well, the other Tchaikovsky features all that and tells us a lot about her. And also the other side of her, as you say, she was such an extraordinary woman. She founded the Women Only Disco or Club. What was that? Yeah, the Women's City Disco, which became quite iconic, really. I think she welcomed sort of, it was only women, but it was all kinds of women. It wasn't just gay women. So a lot of ex-prisoners came.

It was in King's Cross in the 80s, so it was quite a rough place at the time. And they would also kind of bring in prostitutes who were sheltering from pimps. It was just such a fascinating sort of world that we so rarely see. I think queer histories, particularly women's queer histories, are so rarely represented. And this club struck me as quite a kind of hotbed of this. That is the playwright Harriet Maidley. And also you heard from Kate Paradine, current CEO of the organisation that Chris Tchaikovsky founded, Women in Prison. And I do recommend that. It's an interesting play called The Other Tchaikovsky. Yes, she was related by marriage, in fact, to you know who.

And you can find the play on BBC Sounds. Now, to your thoughts on the rest of the programme today. Lissy Harper, Mike says, what a brave woman. I hope everybody supports her campaign and I wish her well for the future. I am a former police officer, he points out. I think it's worth saying, of course, whilst everybody has enormous sympathy for Lissy herself, not everybody agrees with the fundamental thrust of her campaign. And this is Miguel, who says, much as the anguish is obvious and very

uncomfortable to hear, I would be deeply worried about a justice system that essentially splits society, where one life is arbitrarily worth more than others in the eyes of the law. I agree the teenagers involved should have been dealt with more severely, but changing the law would not be right. This is an anonymous email. I have the utmost sympathy for Lissy Harper. My heart really does go out to her, but I disagree with her campaign. I'm a doctor and I feel very uncomfortable with the idea that if I was ever killed, that person would automatically get a life sentence. What makes my life any more valuable than anybody else's? Every murder or manslaughter case is unique and should be viewed as such. We need to trust in

the justice system on this. Chris says, I can only admire and wonder at such dignity and courage. Her grief is still palpable. It's not a barrier against her wish to achieve justice, both for her husband and others in the future um yeah interesting range of views there and i i am interested of course that some people did feel that whilst they do have enormous sympathy as we all do for lissy they are a little troubled by elements of her campaign so thank you to everybody who contacted us on that one um stephanie yoboa um a tweeter called Mad Nana, liked her very much.

Good interview with this lovely lady. I am absolutely appalled to hear that people invade her privacy by filming her. It made me so angry. I want others to stand up and shame them as I would. Keep up the good work, Stephanie. From Sally, I'm big, so I get it, but let's face it, being overweight is bad for your health.

And by saying it's great, you're saying it's OK to not try to be more healthy. In the UK, obesity and the diseases associated with it cost the NHS millions. From Kiki, Stephanie, you are now 100% my favourite person in the world, saying all the words that need to be said and toddlers and their tantrums anonymous i'm at home with my three-year-old and my six-month-old we were all set for a return to nursery last week but unfortunately a little girl in my son's bubble has developed covid thankfully she's all right which means that he needs to self-isolate for two weeks, which means all three of us are isolating. Mummy is a bit down, to be honest.

I've tried hard to keep myself sane, but another two weeks feels like it will finish me off. His behaviour has deteriorated the more time he's spent at home, and I'm worried about how much YouTube we're all watching. I'm really not feeling like I'm nailing the mum thing at the moment. Well, to that anonymous listener, can I just say you have my utmost sympathy and there is no way on earth that I would have nailed motherhood in these circumstances or indeed in your circumstances. So it will all be over. And in 20 years' time, you'll probably be able to have

a little bit of a chuckle about it. But I absolutely take your point. Not right now. From Zoe, portraying toddlers as manipulative is unfair to them. They simply don't have the cognitive development to be able to premeditate bad behaviour. It's true to say that children should be given clear, consistent boundaries in order to feel safe and enable positive behaviour. Children learn how to behave from the adults around them. From Deborah, That's fantastic. Thank you for that. knew he trusted us enough to know we still loved him, although he was being a bit of a monster. That's fantastic. Thank you for that.

That's a real nice positive spin. Steph says we've been dealing with teenage tantrums. These involve lots of emotional blackmail. Yeah, that's actually not any easier to deal with either, is it really? From Marie, on Saturday, my granddaughter and her husband returned to Bermuda after a visit to see family in Harrogate. Two toddlers, girls, one four and one two. She said they were as good as gold on the 15 hour journey home, except for a small biting incident at journey's end. Marie describes herself as a proud great grandmother.

Well, I'm sure you are proud. How fantastic to have great granddaughters. That's absolutely amazing. And who can blame them for a little bit of a biting incident at the end? I mean, for heaven's sake, we've all done it. Tomorrow, Jenny is back, back, back. Olive Thomas was one of Hollywood's first starlets.

She ended up, sadly, dying from poison in Paris a hundred years ago. And tomorrow, the film historian and critic Pamela Hutchinson will discuss her life with Jenny. They'll also, on the programme tomorrow, be lamenting what could be, with all this working from home malarkey, the end of the office romance or relationship.

Has that been your experience? Or can you canoodle on Zoom? That's tomorrow on Woman's Hour. Join Jenny for the programme and the pod. on Zoom. That's tomorrow on Woman's Hour. Join Jenny for the programme and the pod. Thank you very much. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain

from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.