Woman's Hour - Listener phone in - should there be a Minister for Men? Could the role ultimately help women?

Episode Date: September 6, 2023

On yesterday's programme, the Conservative MP for Don Valley, Nick Fletcher, championed the idea of a Minister for Men. He says statistics show that 75% of people taking their lives are men, that the life expectancy of men is 3.7 years lower than it is for women, that 83% of rough sleepers are men and that 96% of the prison population is men. Do you agree with Nick? Could a Minister help tackle some of the issues many young men seem to be struggling with, such as masculinity, pornography, consent and their role in society? Could a minister for men also make life better for women? And could it be a way to tackle the rise of influencers such as Andrew Tate – a self-declared misogynist?Today Nuala McGovern talks to Michael Conroy, the founder of Men at Work, which focuses on unpicking some of the social influences on the values and beliefs of boys and young men – and how some of those influences can manifest in a range of problematic behaviours. Hear him and have your say live on air by calling Nuala. The phone lines open at 0800 on Wednesday 6 September. Call us on 03700 100 444 or you can text the programme - the number is 84844. Texts will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media we're @BBCWomansHour. And you can email us through our website.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer Lisa Jenkinson Studio Managers: Donald McDonald and Emma Harth

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, if you tuned in yesterday, you'll have heard us discussing the idea of a minister for men. There is a minister for women and equalities, as you might know, that targets policies across government departments. Well, Nick Fletcher, the Conservative MP for Dunn Valley, is calling for a role that would focus on policies pertaining to men.

Nick believes that men and boys face such difficulties today that they need extra help. He talked about statistics that show 75% of people taking their lives are men, that the life expectancy of men is 3.7 years lower than it is for women. And in addition, 83% of rough sleepers are men and 96% of the prison population are men. And if the outcomes for men and boys improved, he said, that would be of benefit to women as well.

Here's a flavour of our interview. If men are living a better, happier, healthier life then it is better for women too and it's better for society as a whole and when I became a member of the Parliament it was one of the things that I wanted to jump on. I'm from

Doncaster and I see an awful lot of young boys and young men out there with little aspiration and life's not given them the best opportunities and they tend to be neglected by lots of people within the authority and also government as a whole. We need to be addressing this. You'll know about the gender pay gap, the lack of women at the top table in companies, the fact that less than a third of MPs in the House of Commons are women. How would you respond to that? Do you feel the needs of boys and men are greater than that of girls and women?

No, not at all. I've got a wife and a daughter and I want them to have fantastic lives too, just as much as my son and myself. I mean, obviously over the last century, we've worked really hard to obviously, with equality, to put women at the table along with men, which is super important. But we can do two things at once. And I think what we tend to have done, we've pressed and pressed and pressed for women to have equality, to have equal pay, to have equal rights which is all right, it's everything that we should do but I think at this moment in time especially in over the last 10-15

years we are neglecting our young boys and young men that are coming through. I'm just wondering what that job would be for the Minister for Men. For example, would it be, I don't know, to talk about male privilege, for example, or for boys and men to understand the privilege that they have within society? Would it be that far-reaching? I don't think I ever felt

particularly privileged. I mean, I think I come from a working-class background and to become a Member of Parliament was one of, obviously, an actual wonderful thing. But I've got here through an awful lot of hard work because I don't believe it's necessarily through privilege, I believe, and I think that's what we should be doing.

I think when we say words like privilege, we put barriers for people who don't believe that they've got that. I think most things are achievable for everybody if they're prepared to work hard. Nick Fletcher there. Well, are you clapping, listening to that or shouting at your radio? There has been a huge response on both sides

of whether a minister for men is the way to go and also about the issues surrounding boys and men. So there's been a resounding yes to the idea from some, others questioning, why are we even asking the question well this hour we continue the conversation with you the number 303 700 100 444 03700 100 444 here's some of the areas i'd like to get into what are the biggest fears you have for boys and men so maybe it's your sons your brothers your husbands your husbands, your fathers, your friends.

I'd like to hear that. Also, what about the issues men face regarding work or health? We'll also look at the issue of violence. A question, has feminism gone too far? We spoke about that a little yesterday as well. And is the solution a minister for men? If not, what is? I'll also be speaking to Michael Conroy,

who founded Men at Work, in a moment a moment but first let's give you that phone number, you've got the pen ready 03700 100 444 and also other ways. Text the programme 84844 on social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website.

Some text already coming in. Dear Woman's Hour, after listening to your mail guest yesterday it's clear what is needed is a minister for the abolition of the patriarchy some texts already coming in. Dear Woman's Hour, after listening to your mail guest yesterday, it's clear what is needed is a minister for the abolition of the patriarchy and I'm happy to volunteer for the role. Let me see another fill in Leeds.

When most victims of suicide, homicide, homelessness and homelessness deaths, overall violence, street stabbings, workplace fatalities in 2023 are men, you bet there should be a minister for men.

It's more reasonable to ask, why haven't we got one already? Let me turn to the calls that are already coming in. Let me start with Belinda. Good to have you on the programme, Belinda. I say, do we need a minister for men? What say you? Yeah, I'm definitely clapping Nick Fletcher on this. I've been aware for a long time

of the fact that there are a whole host of problems which are affecting men in ways that women aren't being affected. I mean, things that Nick Fletcher didn't mention are, for example, 95% of workplace... Oh, I'm afraid,

Belinda, your line was a little low and it sounds like it's gone down let me turn instead but she was talking about the workplace and I didn't get the last word there but Belinda please get in touch and let us know but you feel there was more issues

than those raised by Nick Fletcher yesterday let me turn to Mike in Bedford Hi Mike, welcome to Woman's Hour would you advocate for a Minister for Men? Absolutely Nuala. My organisation, Justice for Men and Boys, was a political party for 10 years and we have in our

manifesto, which is still online, 20 areas, 20, where the human rights of men and boys are assaulted by the state's actions and inactions, almost always to privilege women. And no feminist in the last 10 years has inactions, almost always to privilege women. And no feminist in the last 10 years has been able to point me to one area where the state assaults the human rights

of women or girls specifically. Well, people would point to the fact that there's not equality in so many of the areas across society, whether we think about the workplace or indeed when it comes to healthcare, we deal with these issues every day. But what is your fear? Because I'd like to get to that first, Mike, whether there's a young boy, let's say a 15

year old boy now. What is your fear for him? Well, you know, since 1987, the boys have been disadvantaged by the education system. That was the year that GCSEs replaced O-levels. And the continuous assessment allows teacher bias, pro-girl, sorry, allows teachers pro-girl bias to manifest itself in higher grades. What do you mean by that? Well, I mean, when exam grades were the result of examinations, then there was a consistency. And in fact, William Collins, in his amazing book, The Empathy Gap, Male

Disadvantages and the Mechanisms of Their Neglect, shows that prior to 1987, boys and girls were doing really very closely, almost identically. But in 1987-88, when GCSEs replaced O-levels, there was suddenly a gender gap in favour of girls. And the only credible explanation I'm aware of for that is that continuous assessment allowed teachers pro-girl bias. But that is not proven. This is a hypothesis that you have.

And it could be, in fact, that girls were becoming just more involved in school, that they were becoming more independent, that they were able to speak up. Yes, go ahead. Nuala, you haven't listened to me. I've just explained to you

that in William Collins's book, the gender education gap started in 1987. And it's been with us ever since. And Education Gap, started in 1987. And it's been with us ever since. And the only thing that changed in 1987 was the replacement of O-levels. I understand. And you've repeated that a couple of times. But that may or may not be. That is also, if it's not his hypothesis, it is yours.

But what do you think a minister for men could do? Give the first priority that you would ask them to attack. It would be education? I think the first thing, well certainly education very early on but also the appalling, appalling treatment of fathers in the family courts. Okay, well Mike there are two

issues and thank you for bringing them up and family courts is something actually we've been speaking about on Woman's Hour this week as well. I'm going to turn to Holly before I go to Michael, our guest who is with us. Holly, what is your fear when it comes to boys,

perhaps at the moment? Hi, sorry. I've got a three-year-old in the background who's just talking to me. I was calling not really because of a fear for boys, but more because I agreed with some of the things that you said yesterday. And I thought that a minister for boys perhaps

was something that I would get on board with, whereas I wasn't quite so sure about a minister for men. I've been a teacher for over a decade. And I do think that some boys are put off by the idea of feminism and by some of what we're trying to achieve by celebrating International Women's Day in schools and things like that. And that they could be more engaged with the whole issue. Why do you think girls are excelling compared to boys in the school setting? Well, I'm actually a teacher.

I've been a teacher mostly in private schools, which is a whole different issue, but I'm not sure whether the stats would be the same in that situation, whether girls are excelling more in that. That would be another interesting study. But I think more male role models would be a very advantageous thing for a lot of boys.

And I think getting men into primary school teaching and all across the school system would help a lot of boys. Thank you, Holly, for your call. Seeing it be it works in that direction as well. You raise interesting points. That's Holly. Thanks to Holly and also Mike and before them Belinda. I'm joined on the line by Michael Conroy,

who founded Men at Work, which focuses on unpicking some of the social influences on the values and beliefs of boys and young men and how some of those influences can manifest in a range of problematic behaviours. Okay, Michael, welcome to Women's Hour. A lot there already.

What's your response to those calls? What would you like to pick up on? Hi, Nuala. Thanks very much for having me on again. I really appreciate it. Well, it's a fascinating idea and I'm not surprised it set the cat amongst the pigeons and it got so many

replies because it covers so many areas because it really is about the fundamental nature of our society and power and information and truth and where our loyalties lie so what I'd like to do in a way is both answer the question

and sort of go off at a slight tangent and hopefully be forgiven for that. The issues are super important, but we need to discuss what the issues are. I listened to Mr Fletcher's interview yesterday, and I was troubled, as I was back when I watched the – there was an APPG, All-Party Parliamentary Group, on this proposal. There was a panel last year. I watched that, there was an APPG, All Party Parliamentary Group, on this proposal. There was a panel last year. I watched that. It was about an hour long. And I was troubled by the mentioning of really serious issues and then kind of non sequitur leaps to solutions that didn't seem to make sense. Now, one of them, I think perhaps was it in one of your tweets today about thinking about men who are overwhelmingly the victims of violence.

They are, yeah. We are, sorry. But we're the victims of male violence. And what we need to do really, if we really care about boys and if we really care about men, we need to try and unpick cultural beliefs and social influence that teach so many of us that it's okay to treat each other violently and treat women and girls violently that would be the single biggest bonus for men I would suggest physical health and mental health that

could possibly be done. But it tends to be that the voices who are calling for Minister for Men, I find it slightly childish, if I could say that. It's almost like you've got that, I want that. You've got that, I want one of them as well. You've got a pink one, I want a blue one. It's not really about the issues. It's more about a semblance of parity.

And I think, really, if we focus on the issues, male suicide, fascinating subjects, you know, grimly fascinating. Yes, we are 70% of death through suicide, but let's move beyond that, which, you know, in the course of my work previously also as a mental health instructor, we have to do, look at the stats. There is a reason for that. Men choose more violent methods, which are uninterruptible. The way we take our own lives is different, on average,

to the way that women do. And that really matters. But we don't want to go into any of the specifics of that, of course. Absolutely not. I understand what you're saying, and I'll come to violence in a moment. But picking up on some of the calls, I thought Holly's was interesting. A minister for boys is needed, she says, not a minister for men. You go into schools, you speak to boys.

What do you think of that proposal? I like it. It made me smile. I thought that's an interesting idea. And it would be very much in tune with the way I try and operate. It's like looking upstream. We need to look upstream and avoid a culture which is on a permanent loop of picking up the pieces, applying Band-Aids. So if we could do really radical, holistic work with boys and young men

to protect them from the awful barrage of negative influence to which they are exposed from their earliest experiences online, I think we'd be doing something really wonderful. And I'd be all for that. Whether it's a minister for or just some political will is a different question. Because having watched the thick of it, I'm aware that having a minister does not necessarily deliver good policy. Well, let me turn instead to Catlin Moran, who is on this programme not so long ago about her book, which, of course, is looking into boys and particularly taking a look at some of the fears, perhaps, that they have within society. Let me play a little. It culminated on International Women's Day two years ago, where I was doing an event with half women, half men, well, boys and girls, 15, 16 years old. Thought I was there to talk about the problems of women and girls, and the boys hijacked it,

basically. They were very angry, and they were saying things like, it's harder to be a man than a woman now. Women are winning and boys are losing. Feminism has gone too far, and using the phrase feminazis and at that point I became fascinated as a subject because when people are angry it's usually that they're scared I think anger is fear brought to the boil and it's like why are boys scared of women and the progress they've had and I was suddenly like I need to scrap the project that I'm working on and I need to write this book now because there is a whole generation of boys as we can see from the rise of Andrew Tate Laura Bates's book Who Hate Women, just details how big this problem is.

And I think how generally unaware their parents' generation are of just how quickly and how rapidly this has spread. Well, Michael Conroy is going to stay with us, Michael, but I want to turn to Antonia, who is in Devon, getting in touch. You hear a little bit of Catlin Moran there talking about boys being scared, thinking that girls are winning. When you hear that, Antonia, what do you think? I think it's such a shame that we have got to a position where men and women feel against each other. Coming from the perspective of having an older son and two younger sons, there's definitely a problem here that we're not working together to fix the problem, but we're feeling on opposing sides. And I mean, when I speak about and hear about from Kathleen, you know, influencers like Andrew Tate,

is that something you've discussed with your boys? Yeah, I think my older boy has definitely touched into the Andrew Tate sort of perspective. And he feels that there is a sense of having lost your identity as a man in society now. And I think they do need to definitely understand their privilege. They do have a privilege and we still live in a patriarchal society. But also, I think boys have lost their idols and they've lost the people that they can see themselves in. And they do need that as much as women do. So interesting. Stay with us, Antonio. I'll bring you in, Michael. What would you say to Antonio? I mean, is that something that you see, particularly that loss of identity?

And for those that aren't familiar with Andrew Tate, he is a self-declared misogynist who has a huge following online. Yeah, over the last year really I've been doing an awful lot of work with teachers and youth workers who are talking about Andrew Tate and others like him in the manosphere if you like and that kind of incel and pick up movement but Andrew Tate particularly has got a huge profile and used a lot as a kind of provocation within schools. A lot of boys are talking to female teachers about him, asking what they think about him, or he says this and what about that. And there is a palpable sense of anger, and it's interesting, and fear. I think it's very right to connect fear and anger.

Men are trained not to talk about being frightened, but we can be angry. That's something that comes back over and over again every day. Yesterday I was training teachers in the Wirral in a fantastic school. Last week in Belfast, next week Derby, you know, all over the place. And the teachers and the social workers and youth workers are saying that there is a feeling from a lot of boys

and young men, 14, 15, 16, that a grave injustice has been done to them. And that is a really interesting thought when you're drilled down. What is that injustice? You know, what is it we're supposed to have that we don't have? Can I bring in Antonia again? It's so interesting that you talk about your eldest son being influenced by Andrew Tay. Do you speak to him about that? I mean, you're obviously a woman, his mother, how does he feel about you? Or I don't know whether they're sisters or friends or cousins that are women? Well, I think it's always that you can disassociate from the people in your life when you're talking about Andrew Tate, for example, you don't then reflect on the women that he's being offensive towards as the women in your life.

And I think, again, that's because we need to bring the conversation together because women and men in family situations respect each other. And we should be doing that with the idols as well. And if we have a minister for men, maybe he can then present some more appealing idols for these men to feel that they have a voice through. So interesting. And thank you, Antonia. Michael, I saw you nodding at that point

when Antonia says they disassociate those immediate women around them from that larger concept of women in society. Yeah, absolutely. That's such a common thing is that we've got our women, our mums and our sisters and our partners or whoever it might be, but then there are other women as well. That split screen is fascinating to explore with boys and young men.

And what I'm all about is having really good constructive dialogues with boys and young men about what it means to be a boy and a young man in 2023 uh hooked up online to this kind of welter of messages and images but people like Andrew Tate just just to roll back there slightly is he he's not got an intellectual appeal he presents himself as a thinker and postures there with his fingers pointing down and all that. But really, it's an emotional appeal to teenage boys. And he's a very good businessman. That's his customer, if we can call it that. And what he seems to be doing is appealing to an artificially generated sense of grievance,

which is entitlement, that you should be able to get what you want when you want it. And if anybody stops you, then they are in the wrong and you're the aggrieved party. But is the aggrievement really there? I mean, is he tapping into something which is there? Because you talk about it being created, but can you create that from scratch?

Yeah, yeah, I think you can. I think it's straight from the kind of white supremacist playbook, effectively, or any racist movement. Okay. You tell a particular demographic that their ills, which may be very palpable and obvious, you know, their poverty or poor housing or whatever it is, is not the fact, is not the problem of the cause, sorry,

of the prevailing governmental system or class system, whatever it might be. It's those people there with different coloured skin. And this is essentially following the same thing, is that boys, young men, you should all be driving Bugattis and taking pictures of your breakfast in Dubai on Instagram and having hundreds of thousands of followers and having loads of girlfriends. And if you're not that, there's something wrong

and you don't want to feel that it's wrong with you, so let's join together and say it's the fault of the Matrix, which is essentially a kind of conspiracy theory that women have emasculated men, robbed us of our rightful position of kings of the world, and we need to sort this out. It's a very troubling kind of message, really.

So, Michael, let us take another call. We have John on the line. Hi, John. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Talk me through how you are seeing this conversation about whether we need a minister for men. Well, I would say definitely, it wouldn't be the whole solution but it's definitely a beginning um the education system

um is definitely changed since the 80s um there was only a few subjects where there was a massive difference between boys and girls in the 80s and now girls are massively outperforming boys and particularly in the poor areas where boys are really doing badly at education and that is therefore giving them a terrible start because they haven't got, there are no longer the jobs that require no education. Those in general don't exist. So therefore they're becoming unemployed, disaffected, bored,

and then possibly angry and possibly violent. And that is affecting the whole of society. I mean, some might say that is a failure of levelling up, for example, or a failure of poverty policies or a failure maybe of trying to bring certain areas,

really, I suppose, at the heart of levelling up to an equal playing field with other parts of the country. Yeah, partly it is poverty and lack of investment in those areas, but it also covers the whole of the country because you've got, obviously, nursery schools, you've got primary schools, you've got secondary schools and teachers that are male are becoming less and less common. And, you know, we touched on this yesterday, John,

because Nick Fletcher, the MP, was calling for more men to be role models within various professions, be it caring professions or teaching, but they are lower paid jobs and they are not jobs that are attracting young men. It all depends where you're measuring it from. In areas of the north of England and the north of Wales, it's actually quite a well paid job. Why do you think boys are not, you know, beginning to aspire to go into those fields?

Because there is a shortage, of course, whether we talk about traditional female roles like nurses, for example, or other roles within the NHS or indeed teachers. I think it's partly society's view and possibly men's view of a man being particularly a nursery or primary teacher. It's not a positive career as far as society is thinking it's more of a you should be doing something else you should be doing something um maybe with older children maybe with um tertiary education and also i think it's a bit of a fear of

people judging them what are you doing that for? Why are you teaching little kids? Why can't you deal with the older kids? Are you a bit, you know? So it's something to do with society's perspective on masculinity. Exactly. It is exactly that, yes. And the trouble is, it's getting worse, because in the 80s, when I trained and became a teacher... You were primary school.

...for men to go into primary and when you went into primary they always wanted you to go into year three if it was a junior school or into reception um if it was um if it was um four to eleven and it was very it was it was very positive um from women and men. They'd wanted men to experience all the age groups, and I think that's gone now. It's as if men have to at least be a secondary school teacher and possibly not even go into secondary school,

because even secondary schools now are becoming, males are becoming a little bit rare. I understand you. You bring up some interesting points, John. Thank you so much for that. Just going to read some of the comments coming in. 84844. Media and advertising are not helping the situation by portraying men as being thick or quirky, while the women

are shown to be capable and confident. There are so many ads where the husband is hopeless and the woman sorts everything out. If the same advert was shown with the roles being reversed, they would never be shown. That's Elizabeth. Here's another. I don't think that feminism has gone too far. Far from it. However, equality works

both ways. My son lost his virginity at 15 to an older girl nearly 17. We feel he had been coercively controlled and gaslit. But because he's a 15-year-old boy, this has not been responded to in the same way if it were an older boy having sex, for example, with an underage girl.

Another, we need to stop seeing this as a competition where we pit one side against the other. We must look at the reasons we're still not working as a whole and address that so we can all move forward together. Well, we're trying to do that today on Woman's Hour. Thanks so much for all your calls coming in. Let us turn to Katrina, who's in Devon. Hi, Katrina. Welcome to Woman's Hour. How do you for all your calls coming in. Let us turn to Katrina who's in Devon. Hi Katrina, welcome

to Women's Hour. How do you feel about a minister for men? I'm quite angry about it. I think there would be a case for having a minister for men when women have achieved equality and we haven't yet. But do you understand or take on board

some of the points that Nick Fletcher was raising and some of my guests this morning as well, which is that if men were in a healthier position in society, that there was less anger or violence, for example, that would be a better society for women. Yeah, I agree. But I think the way that we get there is by women having a more equal voice in society. If we've got more MPs, more women in positions of power, where we're actually influencing the way our society looks, then we will be able to influence men to understand what the situation is, what women have been going through for all this time.

It's interesting, though, isn't it? Because you will have heard this morning, Katrina, one gentleman, Mike, talking about he felt there was a bias towards an anti-boy bias in education. And as he said, we also heard there from John about masculinity and basically men not able to take certain roles

that it would be looked down upon. Couldn't a Minister for Men work to eradicate some of those thought patterns, for example, if in fact that it could lead to a more equal viewing of men and women. And maybe, in fact, if there is any, we know there is an education gap between boys and girls to work on that and then eliminate some of that anger. Because it could be a long time before we do have equality for men and women, as I'm sure you know. Yeah. And yeah, maybe a Minister for Men could address that, but I kind of think it would, in education, boys don't lose out in my experience.

I am the mother of three boys who are growing up now and they did well in education, but perhaps it depends on the environment that they're in as well. I am married. My husband and I really encouraged our children to work hard and study and to look to going to university to improve their chances. And our boys really took that on board. They flew through GCSEs, enjoyed their A-levels.

So I think it depends what your expectation of a boy is. And listen to this message that came in, Katrina, I'd like your thoughts and also Michael's. I'm a total believer in equal rights for women. However, boys have become emasculated. They daren't compliment a girl in case they're accused of sexism.

They don't know how to ask a girl out without accusations. That is why Andrew Tate, self-declared misogynist for those who aren't familiar with him, has become a must-read for boys. I was a teacher for 40 years and I saw how boys became confused about their role. And again, I think that can be addressed in education.

We have sex education lessons in schools, but they don't talk about consent. And parents can be educated about consent as well. And for me, that isn't just about sex. It's about consenting to anything. It's teaching your children that you don't have to kiss your granny if you don't want to. You don't have to behave in these polite particular ways because that's socially acceptable. That everyone should be taught

that they're autonomous. You don't have a right to touch people to do things. And Katrina, might I ask, because you do have three sons, so you have your expertise in this area. Did you not come up against any fears,

particularly some of the other issues we were talking about? For example, afraid, you know, maybe when a lad goes out, whether he might encounter about, for example, maybe when a lad goes out, whether he might encounter violence, for example, or might mistakenly say the wrong thing to a young

woman or a girl, for example. Were they not any of your fears? Yeah, absolutely. When they went off to university, I sat two of them down and we sort of had this quite awkward, embarrassing talk where I wanted to cover their safety when they were out and about because I'm aware that men are more likely to be the victims of violent crime than women.

And also, if they were in a situation with someone and they thought it was going to go and they were going to have sex, that they needed to ensure that this person was capable of agreeing you know you know what students can be like everyone is blind drunk um you know i was just trying to say to them you must be aware of these things and just try to make them a little bit aware of what the world can be like you know we live in devon it's quite safe and secure down here we We haven't really experienced anything awful and they haven't

in their lives. But it's like you can't just go out into the world and trust everyone. You've got to look after yourself. So you had those conversations but still no Minister for Men, says Katrina. Thanks so much for that call. Let me turn to Atto in the Midlands. How do you feel about a Minister for Men

and welcome? I think it for Men? Welcome. I think it's a good idea and I think your guest yesterday, Nick Fletcher, made some very important points about it. It is a shame that some people are trying to make it like men against women, which it's not about.

I think your last caller said she wasn't happy about it because they wanted equality for women. It shouldn't be neither or. We can try and get to both at the same time. I think you did even articulate that a minister for men could help achieve that. I think there's a lot about education that is needed. And when we have something like that in place, it could help a lot of men.

Because historically, unfortunately, men have been given certain powers. That's how it's been. And things have to change. The only way things change is by educating men. So it's interesting, Atto, it's kind of everybody's definition of masculinity and also what a minister for men may or may not do. Let us turn to Laura, not her real name. Good to have you with us, Laura.

What's your thoughts when you hear some of the conversation? Hi there. Thank you for having me on the show. I listened this morning and it really struck a nerve with me. My brother is an extremely educated man. He's an engineer. He's always been extremely loving. He's always been a valuable member of our family. And over probably the last probably about two years, I've seen bizarre views that's come from him,

extreme misogynistic views. And he's, you know, said to me that Andrew Tate is king. Andrew Tate is giving him the guidance that he needs to be successful. It seems to be like very extreme views about females not working, females need to be at the home. Where did that come from, Laura?

It's your brother. I mean, was he always like that or was it, do you feel? No, we had parallel upbringings. He was never, never of that view. I feel personally that it's from YouTube reels that he's watching. I try not to, I've had another approach with him now where I try to engage with it and say, you know, well, where did you get that bit of information from? And it's mainly from YouTube. It's from YouTube Reels that Andrew Tate does Does he understand your fears for him? He feels that I'm part of the problem but

me saying that Andrew Tate maybe isn't the best person to give you your life guidance he thinks that I would be saying that because I'm female and I'm trying to prevent him. Does he have a relationship or relationships?

Yeah, he has a relationship. I've spoke to his partner about it and she really dislikes it. She doesn't feel like it's nice. It's not very nice to, you know, endure when, you know, it's happened. Sorry. But no, no, sorry to interrupt you, Laura. But he is, you're giving us that illustration, really. And this is somebody who's older.

This isn't a 14, 15 year old lad. This is a person who is out in the world and working. Thank you so much for your call. I want to turn, though, to a comment that came in and focus a little bit. We touched on it very briefly on the idea of violence. The idea of a minister for men, says this messenger,

initially had me spitting feathers. But the vast majority of violence against women and girls is perpetrated by men, as is most violence experienced by boys and men. Treating violence against women and girls as a women's problem

means we never really deal with the root cause. So perhaps a minister for boys and men, which focuses on the problems that lead to men becoming violent, would be beneficial to society as a whole. You're nodding, Michael, briefly? Yeah, yeah. If it's specific and evidence-based,

then, again, I'm not hung up on the notion of a minister for. I understand the kind of theatre of it and the and the set piece appeal of it but it's about what is he actually doing you know what are people doing i'm absolutely all for sex specific research and evidence about health about mental health about violence about imprisonment about homelessness about um success in school otherwise in school absolutely yeah for sure we do need it to be forensically clear about what happens to who and why and who does what to who and why that's why we need really robust sex-specific evidence across the board all the time um just really picking up on on that thing that uh laura said brother, sorry, it was really striking.

It was really striking that a grown man takes algorithms really of under-21s, pretty much males identified as that demographic. So it's really interesting. But again, the type of message is the kind of message that is peddled by racists or conspiracy theorists, that there are simple answers to your complex, multifaceted problems. And when somebody tries to sell you a tub of magic cream for a compound fracture, you know, they will sell it, maybe, but you ain't going to get better.

That's the real problem is the issues are deeper and broader than any youtuber is ever going to address um but and rather than a minister for male violence i would say somebody with a real genuine care about male violence towards men and towards women and girls would be ideal but i ain't seen any of that at the moment, and that's the real problem. And homelessness, I was looking at reading The Big Issue this morning and Shelter, their reports recently. I'd recommend everybody has a look at them. If you Google Big Issue or Shelter and sex, well, they use the word gender, but I use the word sex, split,

up-to-the-minute reports, really interesting to find that, in fact, I know that Nick Fletcher was talking about men are majority homeless. Well, he's talking about rough reports. Really interesting to find that. In fact, I know that Nick Fletcher was talking about men are majority homeless. Well, he's talking about rough sleeping. He didn't say that, I don't think. And he said homeless. Well, we did speak of people that are sleeping on the streets as well.

Sleeping on the streets. We did. Or rough sleeping. There were sex-specific reasons for why there would be more males who were visible than females. We need detail. The problem is the headline and the soundbite.

But detail is good. I have to say there's so many that have been getting in touch. Here's one. Of course, we need a minister for men. We cannot ignore the problems of half the population and pretend everything's fine. That's what every feminist has been fighting against for centuries. Traditional roles of women have changed,

which means that traditional roles of men have changed. They need just as much as of support. They are people too. against for centuries. Traditional roles of women have changed, which means that traditional roles of men have changed. They need just as much as of support. They are people too. I want to go to a couple of calls as well. Many of you getting in touch as well. Michael Conroy is who you were listening to there just a moment ago. Our call out number is 03700 100 444.

You're listening to Woman's Hour. As we discussed, whether we need a minister for men. Let me turn to Fiona. Fiona, we're talking about the issue of violence there. This is something that you've thought about deeply. Yes, we work with men who experience conflict or anger in their life and we offer them coaching.

And we've built up a really amazing community. A lot of our clients have become volunteers who work with us and it expands a rate that we never thought would happen. I believe we're encouraging them to talk. We improve their relationships, their work possibilities, the way that they connect with people and them being able to talk about what anger feels like for them. And what do they say, Fiona?

Oh gosh, it's so varied. Give me an idea. Okay, so it might be, we have a split. Sometimes it's work, so people are losing jobs. Sometimes it's conflict in the relationships, arguments, relationship breakdown. And we talk them through, through coaching, which is very client-led, ways that could help them. So it could be how to communicate.

It could be, a lot of it is assertiveness. It's actually anxiety. It's often not anger. You know, scratch the surface. It's anxiety a lot of the time. It's fear. That was mentioned previously in a few calls I heard. There's a lot more going on

than meets the eye however because coaching is so flexible and our coaches are so detailer to each man that they work with they're able to get to the nub of what's going on for them and really allow them to to search what's going on and talk in a way that they wouldn't normally um so we believe some of what we're doing is encouraging men to talk, which they don't always. And that is, that comes back again and again, I think, in whatever area we're talking about, whether it's health, mental health, or communication or anger, as you discussed there as well.

Andrew, you're in the Cotswolds. You say yes to a minister. Talk me through why. Yes, absolutely. And primarily because... Hello, can you hear me? Yes, hear you loud and clear. Can you hear me now? Sure, I still can.

Hello. Hello, I can hear you, Andrew. Maybe you're having... Yes, I'm very... Oh, I think there's a lag. That's OK. Just go ahead. Tell me why you think you'd like a minister for men. Because the inequalities suffered by women and girls because they're women and girls and there's inequality settled by men and boys just because they're men and boys. But they're entirely absent, in my opinion,

from the conversation on equality. And I think men and boys really do need a formal political role to advocate on their behalf, to advocate for those issues. I mean, these issues have been touched upon quite a lot this morning. You know, they're undeniable. They're very real.

You know, suicide rates, dropping out of education. One of the things that hasn't been mentioned was the lack of support for victims, male victims of domestic abuse. And it's something that there's just the very, even though there are more male MPs than female MPs, male MPs do advocate very strongly on behalf of issues affecting women and girls, you know, as well they should. But there's so few advocating for issues impacting men and boys. Just the very fact that this conversation is controversial, I think, is evidence of that.

Andrew, thank you very much for your call. And, you know, when Nick Fletcher did bring it up in Parliament, Sniggers was the word that he used, actually, how it was received. The majority of parliamentarians are men. Make of that what you will. Lots of messages coming in. Yes, to minister. We should have a minister for men. Many issues are different, but in need of focus. Here's Michelle. if that's what you will. Lots of messages coming in. Yes, to minister. We should have a minister for men. Many issues are different, but in need of focus. Here's Michelle.

She says, I do hope this would mainly be based around teaching and training about misogyny, violence, sexual harassment and consent. It should be training related to make men understand about their role in society. More empathy is required in their makeup. Michael Conroy is with us as well.

Briefly, Michael, you speak with young boys and boys and young men. Is there a way to intervene to stop violence in its tracks? and the cause of the violence will dictate the best approach and the best people to deliver the interventions. But what we cannot deny is that the majority of interpersonal violence in the UK is committed by males, on males and on women and girls. So we need to just start from that premise. If there were a minister for male violence, that might be interesting, whose sole task is to work out why that is happening, why we are so at risk from each other as men. What about some of the points that were brought up there

by our listener? For example, she talked about anxiety and a lack of assertiveness and fear being behind the anger. Anger, we know, will lead to violence. Yeah, anger is an interesting one. I mean, I do some work with adult male domestic abuse perpetrators in collaboration with Women's Aid in Manchester.

And anger is a really interesting topic of discussion there because it's much used and little understood but often in conversations with boys and young men and with the teachers who are trying to work with them we you know we look at the picture of the iceberg with the the pointy bit at the top which is the capital a of anger but what is beneath the water well we've got frustration vulnerability regret fear trauma loss all kinds loss, all kinds of vulnerability, all kinds of stuff that the problem is, though, that the script that we're offering boys is not to talk about those things

or to see those things as shameful because they're what are supposed to be experienced by women. So fundamentally, the problem, many of the problems we're looking at here are actually the root cause is the fact that we're culturally influencing boys and young men to see women as less than us and therefore they have a certain set of emotions and characteristics and if we have any of them we become less than so interesting as men yeah i understand what you're saying. I want to go from violence to some of the figures and another issue that was raised by Nick Fletcher yesterday, which is about health,

mental health. 75% of people taking their own lives are men. We've talked about that. And we've heard as well that men often find it more difficult than women to open up and talk about when they're struggling with their mental health. I want to bring in David Edwards, who's a retired GP. Welcome, David. What are your thoughts on this aspect, particularly when it comes to a minister for men? Good morning, and thank you for inviting me on your Woman's Hour. Yes, as Nick said yesterday, men on average die earlier than women. And the difference is about 3.7 years but if you go to areas of deprivation it can be as wide as eight years but not only this they present with disease whether it be diabetes high blood pressure cholesterol raised cardiovascular disease and so

forth cancers at a much later stage so that the outcomes are much worse. And I think that there's several things that can improve this. I think that it would be beneficial to set up men's health clinics in general practice. If you go on a general practice website, you will commonly see that there are women's health clinics, but very, very rarely do you have men's health clinics. I understand what you're saying, but shouldn't the Minister for Health be able to deal with these issues, David?

I think that there are various things that... I think the Minister of Health is probably extremely busy at the present time with other things, but I think that there are certain gender-specific things that need to be addressed as far as men are concerned and the other thing that I think is important is the fact that women can play a very important part in getting the men to seek help because I think that in general men are weak feeble creatures they're as stubborn as mules and literally need to be dragged to see the doctor. Now you said that not me. I know I agree and I say this commonly dragged to see the doctor. Now, you said that, not me. I know. I agree.

And I say this commonly when I'm lecturing. But is that true? I mean, I worry about men being stereotyped in this way, that they're not able to make their decisions and that they're, you know, not taking a leading role. I do know that women make the majority of doctor's appointments for the whole family, be it for themselves, for their partners and for their children.

But they're not really feeble. What is stopping them picking up that phone and going to the doctor? I think the thing that's stopping them and the reasons for this tiredness is embarrassment, apathy and the sort of macho belief

that the signs and symptoms will disappear or could be seen as a sign of weakness. It's so signs and symptoms will disappear or could be seen as a sign of weakness. It's so interesting you bring that up David because you're bringing up and what I'm hearing from so many of my listeners whether we're talking about violence or health or indeed fears for younger boys or you know being influenced in the manosphere as we were calling it. It's about this fear of showing weakness or showing

some of the values that women might hold dear. Thank you so much for your call. Really interesting. Let me bring in Sean who's in Slough. Hi Sean. What would you like to say? Hi. Good morning Nell. Can you hear me okay? I sure can. Right. I've been thinking about this subject for a very

long time. I'm a male in my early 60s. I was a teacher for many years. I have a son and a daughter. My son is 32. He's had three friends commit suicide since he was 17. My goodness. My daughter is a clinical psychologist, and she works with young women. So I really, really want to avoid it being a men versus women, boys versus girls

situation. There are so many issues and my mind has been exploding with all the contributions that I've heard so far. But I think at the very, very core, coming from the left, we have always looked at things through structural inequalities. We have tried to avoid blaming any individual group for the problems which they are experiencing. You know, I did all the marches for various things through the years, the 80s and 90s, etc. We would never have blamed an ethnic group, for instance, for the fact that they have maybe slightly more violence or they don't achieve economically or educationally. We obviously saw the structural barriers in society that kept women back for many, many, many years. We obviously, we looked at structural barriers against gay people in many, many ways.

This is the only area where I hear again and again and again, we actually blame the ones who are suffering. Well, you know, boys are like that. Men are like that. And it can be said in a, you know, in an offhand way, in a kind of like, almost like kind way, you know. But if we were to really look, let's look and see what's going on here. The facts are that in schools, and this has been mentioned so many times, I remember speaking to four very, very high achieving young men in a very good school, not very far from Slough. And one was a Sikh boy, another was a Muslim boy, another was a black British boy, and another was a white British boy. And all four of them said they listened to Andrew Tate, and he was telling the the truth and the schools were lying to them.

And it was the most horrifying thing ever because these were not angry young men, these were high achieving men. High achieving young men. And I have seen the crisis in men right across. And so Sean, just before I let you go, is it a Minister for

Men that you feel will be able to tackle some of those issues that you've raised? You know what? I don't know about that. But if there was a minister for men, let it be a woman. You know, that's so interesting you say that, Sean, because I also got one from Phil. He says, if there's a minister for men, it may as well be a woman. It would be an impossible job for a man to do. Can you imagine the scrutiny? Another message from May on email. No one has mentioned the vast social economic differences that there are between boys. The education system fails too many boys but class and race is

a massive issue. A minister for boys is just a sticking plaster. The issues with boys goes so much deeper. Boys are still being raised as if macho is the only way to be. We must raise our sons differently and a minister for men is not the answer to that.

And I was just struck by this one that came in from Carlos. Going back really to the beginning to fears. My biggest fear is that, for my son, is that he'll be sifted out of job application processes due to his gender as I have and it has broken me. I'm sorry to hear that, Carlos.

Let us return, Michael, to some of the solutions just in our last few minutes. And thanks to all our listeners who have got in touch, I have to say. They've thought about this deeply, I can tell. Coming back to the idea of a minister for men, what would it even look like after what we've heard? My problem with it is it would be tokenistic, I fear. It would come from a way of seeing the world that sees men as aggrieved and that women have got too much. I think, honestly, that's where I'm hearing the calls for what i want to see is um better mental health uh relationships between between men and and the ability to ask for help uh to raise our sons to be fully human and our daughters to be fully human and and for male human beings and female human beings to live with justice i think

the word equality is it's really complicated um really clear, I think. Is this situation tolerable and fair and reasonable? But situations can be equal, but they can be rubbish situations. And so I don't necessarily chase that word. I'm thinking, what is just? And there are certain situations that are unjust for women and girls and unjust for boys and men. However, the architects of those situations have been historically men. And we need to be grown up enough to accept that and not shy away from it and bring together the best brains of our researchers across the country to talk about why are men behaving in these particular ways,

which are harmful for them. It's about loving men and boys and loving men and women because we all matter, we're all human. And some that are modern phenomenons and some that are, of course, rooted so much in history. I want to try and just get one more call in, Michael,

before we end. Andrew in Islington, welcome. You are thinking solutions. Give me one in 30 seconds. In 30 seconds, Nuala, that we make the BBC bring back Men's Hour on Five Live. That is a solution. And then equally, park benches all across the United Kingdom. They should have one park bench that says, I sit here and I'm willing to chat, because I do think that not enough people are chatting.

You don't need a psychologist. You just need someone who's objective and doesn't know you so that you can be open and honest. You know, you bring up a really interesting point and well done for doing it in 30 seconds. You're like a professional, Andrew. But this comes back to opening up, Michael, to being able to chat wherever it is, because people are chatting online with Andrew Tate and others like him. But Andrew brings up that the objective observer to be able to help men find their place, discuss issues that might be really that they're struggling with. Objective observers and counsellors or therapists are a really good thing again it's like what do do enough men i think you could sit in an office or a school with a poster with a helpline number

on it uh for men or boys but what is it that stops us using it and is it a sense of shame that we're not strong and that brings us right back what are supposed to be? And if we're supposed to be strong at the expense of all else, we will keep hurting. And we will also keep hurting women and girls because the formula is wrong. Michael Conroy, Men at Work, the founder. Thank you so much for spending this hour with us here on Women's Hour.

Alice got in touch. She says, I have put in caps. I have pulled over and stopped my day to listen. What a useful conversation. I have pulled over and stopped my day to listen. What a useful conversation. I will be downloading and playing this to my husband and son and daughter. That's what we want. Thank you very much, Alice. Hayley Hassell is with you tomorrow.

I'll see you on Monday. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Can you just tell me who he is? No. Has he got any distinguishing features? His anonymity. What's his name? Banksy. I'm James Peake and I'm on a mission to find out how Banksy became the world's most famous and infamous living artist. He could literally be anyone. Banksy

essentially humiliates the art world. With dealers, critics and someone who once worked deep inside Banksy's secret team. Do you wish you didn't know he was? Sometimes I wish I'd never heard of Banksy. The Banksy Story. With me, James Peake, on Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. How does he smell? Like paint.

I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.