Woman's Hour - Listener Week: 106 marathons in 106 days, Universal Basic Income, Widowhood

Episode Date: August 24, 2022

Emma is joined by listener duo - and world record holders - Fay and Emma who ran 106 marathons in 106 consecutive days. Enduring a gruelling 2,777 miles of running, the pair hope to inspire people to be active while you can, focusing on what the body can do – not what it looks like!The killing of 9 year old Olivia Pratt-Korbel in Liverpool has shocked the city and the country. Listener Bobby wanted us to discuss women being killed in shootings. Jenny Kirkham, content editor for the Liverpool Echo, joined Emma Barnett.Listener Ruth Griffin got in touch to say “Please please get someone on to talk about Universal Basic Income!" Trials have been undertaken in Wales, Kenya and Finland, and Ruth asks…"why aren’t we pushing this to be introduced?" Professor Guy Standing is founder and co-President of the Basic Income Earth Network, an NGO promoting basic income as a right, Guy is joined by Ruth Kelly, a fomer Labour MP and Minister and now Senior Fellow at the Policy Exchange Think Tank. We’ve all heard of Florence Nightingale, but have you heard of Rufaida Al-Asalmiya? Born 2,000 years before her, Rufaida was known for her work in promoting hygiene practices in invasive procedures, she was the first documented user of mobile care units in conflict zones. Listener Sofiya, who herself is a registered nurse and Muslim only just heard about Rufaida a few weeks ago. Sofiya joins Emma alongside writer Dr Shamaila Anwar. As part of listener week Coral from London wants to know why widowhood is not talked about more - is it taboo? She's joined by Sue from Norwich who has experiences and wisdom to share. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme and to the third day of Listener Week. What have you got in store for us today then? Because we are driven by your questions, your emails, what you'd like talked about, interviewed, the discussions, all on the programme being driven by our listeners for the whole week. One listener is passionate about an economic solution to help women in particular. We'll hear about the pros and cons of that.

Another wants to break what she sees as a taboo around widowhood. And one more wants to tell the world about the life and times of a nurse from 620 AD. Oh, and let's not forget the two listeners who ran 106 marathons in 106 days, like you do. Of course, if you want to get in touch, as usual, you can text me here at the programme on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour and you can email us through the Women's Hour website. You can also now WhatsApp or send a voice note on WhatsApp [phone]. Data charges may apply so you may wish to use Wi-Fi and all the terms and conditions are on the Woman's Hour website.

Those same numbers for if you just hear something this morning which makes you think, actually, why have they never talked about that? Why don't we talk about this? You can still contribute to Listener Week and we are taking your suggestions right up to the minute of going on air, believe me. Now, in terms of a suggestion of something to talk about, it's one of the only news stories, if I could call it that, that is being talked about this morning. And yesterday, as more and more details began to emerge, the shooting of nine-year-old Olivia Pratt-Corbell in Liverpool

has shocked the city and the whole country. But it's just the latest in a string of incidents involving a weapon, either a firearm, a knife, or in one case a crossbow, on Merseyside over the last three months, a number of which have involved women. In the last week alone, 28-year-old Ashley Dale was shot dead and Karen Dempsey, a grandmother in her 50s, was stabbed to death as she tried to stop a fight between two men.

All this comes almost 15 years to the day after 11-year-old Rhys Jones was shot dead in Liverpool by a 16-year-old gang member who was aiming at a rival gang, which is begging the question for many, what has, or rather hasn't been learned? Well, one of our listeners, Bobby, wrote in on Twitter asking for this issue to be covered and how when women and girls are being killed, it's by men and what is or what should be taken from this and what can be done to stop it.

I'm joined by Jenny Kirkham, content editor from the Liverpool Echo. Good morning. Hi, Emma. Thanks for being with us today. Of course, based in Liverpool, how are the community today? I think today, you know, yesterday there was so much anger, so much upset. I think today there's probably a feeling of numbness. You know, what can even be done in these incidents? And, you know, we have tried our best to advise people that what needs to be done is people need to speak up.

This wall of silence, this anti-grass culture needs to end because these people need to be held responsible for what they have done to this community. In terms of Olivia, Ashley, Karen Dempsey, Sam Rimmer, who was also murdered last week, we need to be contacting the police and telling them who is responsible for these actions, because that is the only thing that will stop that. It's the only deterrent in these incidents.

What you're talking about there in anti-grass culture, tell me about that. I think a lot of people, you know, in communities like Merseyside and many other places, there's this idea that your reputation is so important. People don't want to be classed as a grass or a stitch. They don't want to be seen to be talking to police or, you know, giving up the names of the people responsible for these crimes. And that needs to stop because these people are allowed to roam the streets and carry out atrocities like Monday night, Sunday morning morning last tuesday when sam karen ashley and olivia were killed and it's it's it's gone on long enough and it's not good enough anymore because of course the other elements of this is those who are being hurt being caught in the

crossfire and then being killed as well are often not the intended in terms of of what's actually going on so they are in the dark but but in the in the in the line of fire literally yeah i think you know you you know yourself emma you could be out late at night you could be coming home from work once you shut the front door on your home you think you are safe you think that that's it i'm home now nothing bad can happen to me olivia was exactly where she was supposed to be on monday night she was in her house with her family and she was supposed to be safe and these people are not even just bringing this crime and violence to people's front doors they're bringing it in through the front door and that is why Olivia isn't with us anymore that's why her family will never get to see her

grow up find out what she was supposed to do with their life because they are coming into people's homes and they are bringing that into people's lives it's not just happening on the street anymore As I say, you work for the Liverpool Echo content editor there the latest on this, we're talking just to go back to nine-year-old Olivia her mother has survived but was also injured how is she doing, do we know about that, has she spoken? Olivia's mum Cheryl is currently still being treated in hospital.

As you say, she suffered a gunshot wound to the wrist as she was trying to keep these people out of her home and keep her children safe. If that doesn't shake you to your very core, I don't know what will. You know, this woman did everything in her power to try and save her daughter's life and unfortunately wasn't able to we we haven't you know she hasn't spoke out she's currently

still being treated i can't can't imagine what olivia's family are going through right now so we don't know when that'll be when she will be ready to speak out about this if she ever will be i mean some of the papers today you know of course looking at what's happening in liverpool but also it pains to to not forget the fact that an elderly man who was riding a mobility scooter in West London was killed last week. There's also many other, sadly, examples of fatal violence going on around the country, leading some papers, you know, to talk about a lawless Britain. And I wonder, do you think there's anything specific to Liverpool about this recent space of violence? Or are we to look at this in terms of a countrywide picture? It certainly isn't, you know, an issue secluded to Liverpool. You know, Liverpool is a fantastic city that does so many good things. The communities are fantastic. Community leaders are brilliant. They look after each other. These incidents, while horrific, are happening in many different places.

What has happened to Olivia, I think, is, you know, does step out of that box of regular crime, if you want to call it that. But there is a problem and there's a weapon problem across the country. There's lots of reasons behind that and there's lots of things to be discussed about that. But today, you know, our thoughts are with Olivia's family, Karen's family, Ashley's family, Sam's family. And I think that the thing we need to do now is get people to speak up about those things. We can't. It's not good enough to just say this is a this is a tragedy and move on. People need to do something proactively. And today we're asking people to speak to police and give up those names of people responsible. And when you say we're asking that, you say that as the Liverpool Echo, as the paper?

That's the stance that we are taking yesterday, today and will be for the future. We need people to speak up. The wall of silence has to come down. The community is saying exactly the same. Anybody we have spoke to in the city feels exactly the same way as we do. And it's the same feelings that were felt whenever Ray Jones was killed 15 years ago. People know who these people are. There's someone sat at home today

and they know who Olivia's killer is. They need to speak up and they need to go to police and they need to give over these names. You just mentioned again, I mentioned as well, that 15 years after 11-year-old Rhys Jones was shot dead in Liverpool by a gang member, it has led some, and I've seen some of the comments from people in Liverpool,

to just be completely exasperated with what's changed. I think in the sense of the community, people have changed. I think the murder of Rhys Jones absolutely tore Liverpool to shreds. It was a murder that rocked the entire country. And for law-abiding people who contribute to their community, it will have changed something. To the people carrying these guns and carrying out these attacks that are leading to innocent children being murdered, they haven't learned anything. That's clear they haven't learned

anything. And it will take for members of the community to stand up to show that they're not willing to let it slide anymore for something to change in those circles because they clearly don't care who's being hurt. If they did care, Olivia's killer would have handed themselves in by now. And with the plea that your paper's making, that others are making around come forward and talk, have you seen anything in the last 24 hours or so that is leading you to believe that might be a change? We are currently live on a number of raids carried out by Merseyside Police this morning and they're being carried out as a result of community intelligence.

These are happening in the Elliott area where Sam Rimmer was murdered last week. You know, truly hopeful there will be more over the coming days in regards to the other murders that were carried out this week. But people are coming forward and it's making a difference. These raids can't go forward without that community intelligence. So we hope that our front page today does have an impact with people. Certainly had an impact with me. You know, the question whose side are you on isn't about the police.

It isn't about the criminals. It's are you on Olivia's side or not? That's the only question. Does her family deserve justice in your eyes? If you think yes, then you're on her side. Do the right thing and come forward. And what about trust in the police, in the local police force?

Of course, a lot of attention has been focused on the Metropolitan Police, especially women's relationship with that particular police force and a lot of scrutiny by those who are meant to scrutinise the police in that force's direction.

How about in Liverpool? I think like any city, and you know, Liverpool has previously, and I'm sure for some time will have an issue with criminal gangs in the city who take advantage of the vulnerable.

And it is hard for people to come forward to police and they don't know who to trust you know if you've been living in these areas that are run by these gangs you're you're terrified and I think a lot of the time it's not so much trust in the police that is the issue it is often you're scared for yourself police can't be outside your house protecting you every minute of every day and we know that by by the cuts that they have suffered over the last 10 years Merseyside police is you know one of the worst forces that have has suffered cuts so yes there probably is a trustee for you know for many justified reasons but also they don't have the resources to protect everybody and they are doing their best but yes there's probably issues to be looked at people who maybe don't trust the police for whatever reason you know they they believe is

justified it it's those people that we're appealing to that now is the time if they don't feel comfortable speaking to police crime stoppers it's always there you can report things anonymously if you do have an issue with trust in the, which I can understand in some people's experiences, there are other ways to get that information over to the people who need it. If needs be, people can contact us and give us the information. We will pass it on. We're willing to do that for Olivia's family, for Karen's family, for Ashley's family, for Sam's family,

anything that makes sure that these people are punished for what they have done. Jenny Kirkham, content editor from the Liverpool Echo. Thank you to you and I should say the BBC has just reported that police are hunting a gunman and have been given a name of a suspect by two different sources.

Of course talking about the shooting of nine-year-old Olivia Pratt-Corbell in Liverpool but also of course remembering and talking about the shooting of nine-year-old Olivia Pratt-Corbell in Liverpool but also of course remembering and talking about in the last week alone the fact that 28-year-old Ashley Dale was shot dead and Karen Dempsey, a grandmother in her 50s, stabbed to death in the area as she tried to stop a fight between two men. And all of that of course is very much dominating the news headlines

but this is also Listener Week on Women's Hour. I'm here to reflect what you want to talk about. And one of our listeners in particular sent several messages about the fact that this issue should be covered and the concern around women being killed, women and girls being killed by legal and illegal guns. Of course, men also being killed in that, not to ignore that, but the specifics of women being killed by men and also what is being done about it. And certainly at the moment, the focus is on, if you have information, please do come forward. Now, you may remember at the beginning of Listener Week, if you've been with me since Monday, I certainly hope you have, but you can catch up on BBC Sounds. We began the week with a basic guide to the economy, following a request

from our listener, Sarah. It's become, of course, the defining topic in the race to become our next Prime Minister. On Friday, Ofgem, the UK energy industry regulator, will make its latest announcement regarding the energy price cap, which could see bills going up to £3,554 a year, according to the analyst's Cornwall Insight. However, plans to make energy cheaper for households who use less during peak times are expected in early September, and that's been announced by the National Grid. Well, another listener, Ruth, wanted us to stick with the issue of our economy and perhaps how things could be done differently, and has put forward one of the ideas that she's seen and quite likes the look of. Please, please get someone on to talk about universal basic income.

Trials have been undertaken in Wales, Kenya and Finland. And Ruth asks in her email, why are we not pushing for this to be introduced? Well, to discuss, I'm joined by Professor Guy Standing, a founder and co-president of the Basic Income Earth Network, an NGO promoting basic income as a right, and someone with a very different view, Ruth Kelly, senior fellow at the Policy Exchange think tank, but you may remember her as a Labour MP and a former minister,

including in the Department for Women and Equality. She was an MP until 2010. Welcome to you both. Guy, I'm going to start with you. I think we should get some definitions on the table. Universal basic income, what is it? Well, first of all, good morning. It's very difficult to follow the last item, but there is some relationship to basic income, as I'll come to in a few minutes. The idea of a basic income

is that every man and every woman would receive a modest amount paid individually with a smaller amount for children paid to the mother or surrogate mother. It would be paid monthly. It would be paid unconditionally in behavioral terms without means testing. If you wanted to tax back from the wealthy, you could do that. And it would be an economic right, non-withdrawable. There are easy ways of funding it. And we've been testing basic income around the world over the last few years, and the results have been pretty spectacular. Essentially, the argument for a basic income is that it would provide common justice. The income and wealth of all of us is far more to do with the achievements of all our ancestors, but we don't know whose ancestors contributed more or less. And in a sense,

a basic income would be a common dividend paid to everybody if we accept private inheritance of private wealth as we do then we could see it as a public thing i'm very pleased that the pope has come out supporting that argument for basic income but it would also enhance freedom and that is so important for women in particular what we found with pilots is that one of the outstanding findings is that women tend to move out of abusive relationships we must remember that more killings and more injuries are done within family and relations than outside. It's still very important to remember that. And basic income enables women to have some sort of financial independence.

And the third reason, besides freedom and justice, is that it would give people basic security. And we need that in this era of chronic uncertainty, where crisis follows crisis. And our politicians, instead of thinking systematically about transformational policies, are rushing around like headless chickens with ad hoc hatching solutions that day one sound great. And then as soon as people look at them and study them for a couple of hours, they realise there are flaws. We need a strategy to provide security for everybody. Let me bring it. Thank you for that definition and also some insights into what you've seen from some of the trials that you've been a part of, or at least have looked across as well. Ruth Kelly, do you agree with that definition? And what do you make of

the case that you've heard so far? Yeah, it's an interesting definition, because people look at the issue, as it were, in different ways. I see that Professor Standing has talked about being able to reclaim some of this money from the rich, for example. That's not a classic definition of what a universal basic income is. That's more like a negative income tax, which incidentally, I have much more sympathy with than a universal basic income is that's more like a negative income tax which incidentally i have much more sympathy with than a universal basic income in my view a universal basic income is giving every citizen as of right and without regard to their circumstances an individual um payment maybe on a monthly basis um and i think while I sympathise completely with Professor Standing's view that everyone as a human is an inherent dignity and owes a lot to previous generations and there is an issue of

justice here, I think trying to solve that issue, as it were, through a financial handout to everyone regardless of their contribution to society or indeed their particular circumstances, so whether they are elderly or whether they have a disability or whether they have children, is way too narrow a way of addressing the problem. So I actually think we need to look at individuals and households on a much more individual basis to look at their needs and to help them accordingly. And of course, that is the basis of the current benefit system. Now, you can argue that the current benefit system may not be working brilliantly, it may not be generous enough, but at least what it does is try and recognise the particular circumstances of each individual. Guy, what would you say to that?

Well, first of all, I think the current system is beyond repair. I think it's a total disgrace. Universal credit is one of the worst social policies ever conceived. The trouble began back in the 1990s when the new Labour government accelerated the trend to means testing. And what means testing means is that you try and target those people who are poor and then give benefits only to those who are poor. And of course, we all support supplements for people with disabilities, people with extra needs and so on. So that's not part of the issue. The trouble with means testing is it creates horrible poverty traps. And what that means is that if someone who is poor and therefore qualifying for a benefit tries to become non-poor

by increasing their earned income by a small amount, they lose as much as they gain. It's called a poverty trap. But actually, with the type of labour market we've got today, it's even worse than that. The current system, you have to wait for at least five weeks before you can even claim benefits. And of course, then if you're offered a short term job, you're likely to be back waiting another five weeks or more because it works out to be much more before you start receiving benefits. And of course, means testing always leads to more behavior testing and more behavior testing leads to more punitive sanctions. So today, for example, 40 percent of the people who are actually entitled to pension credit, for example, are not receiving it. 44% of those entitled to job seekers allowance are not receiving it. The system is punitive, inequitable, and incredibly expensive to administer. But isn't a basic income incredibly expensive? And a problem that people have with it is that it goes to everyone and isn't tested at all as to who deserves it.

Well, that's the basis of it. But as I think Ruth has just acknowledged, there are ways of taxing back from the wealthy. You could increase the marginal tax rate by a small amount so that the rich don't gain anything from it. Or you can change the fiscal system. I believe, for example, that we should abolish personal income tax allowance because that actually benefits higher income groups, not the poor, and convert the personal income tax allowance into helping to pay for a basic income. That would give every adult £48 a week. It's not what I would aim for in

time. Let me bring Ruth, if I can, just let me bring Ruth back in at this point. We are slightly up against it in terms of time. And this is a huge argument. And I want to make sure we sort of hear it in the round. We're looking at the promises of those two individuals who would like to be the next Prime Minister. It's safe to say that this isn't on the table at the moment. But with what Guy has just said, is there any way that we would ever move more towards this, Ruth? You've been in politics, you've been a minister. I really don't think so. As Guy has said, I mean, this is a payment that would be made not just to people who currently have welfare benefits, and I presume Professor Standing wants to rationalise all benefits

into this single payment, but also to people who don't currently receive any benefits. No, I do. I'll come back to that in maybe just a moment. But to people who currently don't have any benefits, so you're talking specifically here, I think, about one of the issues is to women, for example, or men indeed, but as it's women's hour, women who live in a house with a very wealthy partner, for example, who don't have any children and therefore don't receive child benefit, being eligible for a universal basic income.

So you're extending the benefit regime beyond everybody who currently qualifies because they have low incomes into those people in wealthy households or who don't have low incomes. So it's bound to be incredibly costly and a big extension of the state. So I don't actually see any of the candidates in the current contest wanting to pursue this. Professor Stanley, what were you trying to come back on? fundamentally important for women. Unpaid care is unpaid and unremunerated. And the Office of National Statistics have estimated that the value of unpaid care is greater than the value of all manufacturing and non-financial services. We need to give income security to those people who are doing unpaid work. And at the moment, all the rhetoric is about jobs and paid labour.

But women, whether they're by themselves or with a partner who are not getting access to income security, need that income security. A basic income is not a panacea, but it is the future anchor. And there are many ways of paying for it. A 1% wealth tax, plus what I said earlier, plus a carbon tax, which is necessary to fight global warming, would easily pay for it. And I've shown that in my books and others have agreed with that. So including Ed Miliband, for example, or John McDonnell, Ruth's party members. And I think- Anyone from the Conservative Party?

We seem to be a country very much in the habit of only voting for the Conservatives, it seems at the moment. Well, they only got 29% of the electorate support in the general election of December 29th. Sorry, I accept that. But you take the point about who keeps winning elections. That's my point with the system we have. We have a lousy electoral system. That's a totally different issue.

We can't fix everything on Women's Hour this morning as much as I would like. So just in the reality, can I read you one quick message that's just come in? I'm also keen to include listeners as I go. There's a question here, if you could answer extremely briefly. If you introduce universal basic income, who is going to work? Is there any in your trials on what you've looked at, does it disincentivise people from having a job? Please listen to my answer very carefully. Every pilot has shown that the introduction of a basic income results in an increase in work, not a reduction, an increase in work and different forms of work, more productive work, more socially responsible work. And every single pilot has shown that in rich countries, poor countries. And this is a prejudice. And if you think about it, if you were given a hundred pounds or whatever per week,

that's not going to make you suddenly become lazy. The fact is that people want to work. They want to improve the lives of their children. And that is not a disincentive to work. The current system is the big disincentive to work. The current system is the big disincentive to work. The current system is a disgrace. We have a message to that effect as well. But there was an actual question. So it's always nice to be able to ask it. Ruth Kelly, anything else you want to add where we've got to with this? Of course, we can't cover the whole the whole waterfront. Of course, I just want to come back on Professor Standing's point about valuing care.

I think that is a really, really important point, particularly care of young children where families at the moment in the cost of living crisis are finding increasingly difficult to make appropriate choices between work and family life or looking after their own children. So earlier this month, I co-authored a paper for Policy Exchange on Child Care, which suggested repurposing a lot of the benefits and front-loading child benefit to give parents of young children real cash in their hands to make those choices appropriately. And I think that is something really concrete that I very, very welcome either of the two leadership contenders or indeed my own party at taking up in the future. Thank you very much for taking us through. I mean, I'm going to call it a trot through the arguments. It's not as simple as for and against, but the arguments almost around this entire issue, which was prompted by a question from our listener, Ruth. Professor Guy Stanning, thank you to you. Ruth Kelly, thank you very much to you.

And I'm sure more messages will be coming in on this and I will cast my eye over them very shortly, but a direct question in there and a response too. But a very different question I have for you now. How long does it take you to get through, let's say, seven pairs of trainers? Well, for each of these next two women, it took just over three months.

Listeners Emma Petrie and Faye Cunningham got in touch with us about the mammoth accomplishment of theirs of running 106 marathons in 106 consecutive days, a new world record which they broke earlier this summer. And for a little perspective, I'm told that's running a total of 2,777 miles or running from their home in Scotland to London more than five times. Faye and Emma, join me now. Good morning. Morning. Congratulations. I think we need to start there. There's nowhere else to start. Other than just to ask Emma, why on earth did you do this?

Yeah, a bit of a crazy challenge, but we wanted to do something big to inspire a lot of people and raise money for Macmillan and MND and so we decided that yeah running every day for 106 days would give people the chance to come along on the journey with us and hopefully join us for a run and see how we get on and donate towards the charities we're raising money for. And those charities, of course, you have personal connections to, which perhaps we'll come to in a moment. But the feeling, Faye, of doing this, 106 marathons in 106 consecutive days, you genuinely, you didn't miss a day. You did this every day.

Yeah, yeah, we did it every day. Yeah, we got into a routine. It just became our daily lives. Get up, get ready, get out, run a marathon, come home, recover, eat, do it again. Where were you running, Faye? Can you describe the terrain? And also, what month did you start this in? Because I think that would be a strategic decision, wouldn't it, in terms of weather? Yeah, I mean, we started in February. So the 19th of February, the day before we started, we had a really heavy downfall of snow and we got kind of snowed in. So it wasn't ideal. The first week we started running on roads

because they'd been gritted. And then as we got going, we used, we've got a railway line near us, a disused railway line called the Deeside Way. We use that a lot onto trails and around estates. So we're up in Aberdeenshire near Balmoral Castle, so a beautiful place to run. And we just mixed up all our routes, really,

by rivers, off on trails, onto road. And, I mean, it sounds incredible. You sound very good spirited. Did you remain so as you were doing this, Emma, or were there more difficult days than others? Yeah, no, we tried. I mean, we tried to stay positive. I think when you're doing it for a bigger reason, like Faye lost her dad earlier this year to motor neurons disease. And I lost my mum to cancer two and a half years ago so we both thank you um yeah we'd both seen um like someone

we love kind of get the ability to do what they love taken away from them so that definitely kept us going because we just felt really lucky to have the opportunity to be able to do it like we feel blessed that we can run every day and so there were harder days and especially when the weather was involved like we had some really bad wind but um I think you just know that once you finish the marathon that's kind of your suffering over you get to go home recover put your feet up and um get a good night's sleep whereas others in um yeah are in pain constantly or and in a position where they can't kind of switch off to it so we were just trying to focus on getting through that marathon and getting through those miles and then

we could yeah recover and um yeah hopefully inspire people to get out and do do something whilst they can that was our motto is do it while you can as well as both being personal trainers i should say as your as your line of work you're in a relationship. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, that's right. You're still in a relationship. Yeah, we still are. We managed to stay that way through the three and a half months. It's good to check. I get very nervous, actually, when introducing people

and saying various things. You know, maybe out of date as of recently as last night. So it's always good to check that that's still the case. Faye, I believe people came to talk to you at certain points or run with you. as last night so it's always good to check uh that that's still the case and faye i believe people came to talk to you at certain points or run with you yeah definitely we had only probably five days where we ran on our own and on those five days we had people meet us as well and and come and ride with us but every single day we had someone run with us whether it was somebody running just a k or somebody doing the whole marathon with us. It was amazing.

We just wanted people to come along with us and they did. Did they talk to you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a really nice distraction because we didn't do anything different for three and a half months. We just ran every day. So we'd catch up with people and they'd have been on holiday, started a new job, done all these different things. Any good gossip?

I've just finished recording our bank holiday special all about gossip. I'd love a bit of gossip when I was running or if I needed to be distracted. Yeah, no, we did actually. I mean, we had a lady, a paramedic that was brilliant and she came back just to tell us she delivered her first baby and she's been a paramedic for years. So that was quite cool. Oh, that's good. That's a good bit of detail to keep you going for a bit longer. I know you also like your podcasts and and you know you've probably got all these these routines and a lot of trainers I mentioned the trainers yeah yeah a lot of trainers and we went through about seven pairs each um just to to kind of keep the cushioning um obviously

doing that higher mileage we wanted to keep our feet and legs in the best condition possible. So, yeah, we went through our fair share. You still got all the toenails though? Yeah. Yeah. Surprisingly. Runners always want to tell me about those sorts of things. And I hear in horror sometimes what I'm being told.

What's lovely as well, I should say, as well as hearing from you, we also got in touch from another listener nominating you, talking about the fact that it was really inspirational having this in the area and seeing you two and your spirit doing this. So that must be a lovely side effect, I suppose, of, you know, running, running for charity, but also doing this together and setting a new world record. Is this how you made other people feel oh yeah yeah definitely I think it was the biggest thing for us and we we wanted to do a record that

lasted a while so people could join us and um and that's definitely what happened and we're so happy that that was the way it went I think you don't realize that you have like an impact on other people's lives like even just doing little Instagram stories every day updating people like it could have a real effect and kind of lift quite a few people up if they were going through a tough time which you don't really realize when you're doing it but then people were really kind and messaging us and letting us know that it was kind of helping them through different situations so it was really nice and it was such a community feel like we are very lucky where we live and it's a really nice close-knit community we had so much support emma faye huge congratulations well done on still being uh in a relationship as well i think that's a huge thing and and that record

and making people feel good and coming to us here on women's emma petrie there and faye cunningham now let's turn to a message from coral a, a listener from London. She wrote to us to say for Listeners Week, on Woman's Hour you deal extensively with pregnancy, childbirth, menopause, domestic abuse, racism, work problems, etc. Why not widowhood? Is there some sort of taboo around it? Coral is a widow herself. Her husband died six years ago. And she joined me just before I came on air alongside Sue, because Sue was actually on Women's Hour five years ago, talking very openly about the taboos around changing from being a partner to being a carer and her husband, Roy, dying soon after.

Well, Coral joins us from London and Sue from Norwich. And I started by asking Coral why she thought the subjects of widowhood might be taboo. It's not exactly a taboo I think it's just a reluctance to talk about something which is so painful you know I mean you talk about other things that affect women very seriously like rape and domestic violence and infertility and all these really painful things. But in all those cases, there is usually some sort of solution or something you can do to help or you can appoint a czar or a minister. But in the case of husbands dying, you can't do anything. And I think people feel very helpless about it. They don't quite know how to behave with you. There's no perpetrator. You

can't blame anybody. and there's no solution you can't mitigate it it's going to happen and you just have to sort of live with it move on suck it up i hate that expression but that's what you have to do you just have to get used to it and the first year i think is absolutely awful you know it takes you a good year to get over the dreadful grief it's like being cut in half you it takes you a good year to get over the dreadful grief. It's like being cut in half. You know, we talk about our other half, don't we? And it's like somebody's physically cut you in half

and you're only half a person and you just have to adapt to a new life. I don't know if you did hear this, but I remember interviewing Harriet Harman, the MP, the Labour MP. I think it was about six weeks after the death of her husband, fellow Labour MP, Jack Dromey. She actually was on to talk about something she was campaigning on, but it felt remiss not to ask how she was because it was her return to public life and to her job.

She talked about the WAGs, the Widows Advisory Group, who looked after her in the first few weeks and keep her going because she's obviously still in that first year as you you talk about do you talk to other widows have you found that helpful well I've got one or two friends who've been widowed and their experiences were very different I mean there was one who I do see in fact I went out with her yesterday and she was absolutely devastated because she was very dependent on her husband and she wasn't expecting him to die suddenly whereas I was in a way my husband was ill for quite a long time it wasn't

a shock but in her case she was absolutely devastated it was so painful to see how all her friends tried to comfort her but only now I think it's about four years ago she is beginning to come out of it and mixing with people, you know, joining groups and things. Sue, let me come to you. I know that you do talk to others around you. You know, people will have differences, but do you think there is a taboo or you have to get through an initial part of this? I don't think it's necessarily a taboo, but I think your whole life changes. Having to explain to people who don't necessarily know each other well what's happened. And you sort of have these opening gambits that you say, oh, sadly, my husband died six weeks ago or something like that.

So you've originally broached that with the person so that if you end up in tears, they understand why. But I was always quite upfront about sex because my husband was ill for a long time before he died so he had Parkinson's disease and dementia and the last eight years of his life to be perfectly honest were horrible and the thing for me that was the big taboo if you like was the fact that I just got such relief when he died and you're not meant to feel I mean obviously I was sad you know because you've lost but I'd lost him a long time before then but you're relieved for them as well as for you. I'm very lucky.

I've got two fabulous children and lovely in-law children as well. And they were all very balanced about it. But for me, the problem with becoming a widow was really that I didn't handle my children very well, I don't think. I was very concerned about me being the person who'd lost somebody, but I wasn't terribly, I don't know, not exactly sympathetic, but not terribly in tune with their grief, I think. And I was just sort of very sort of, I don't know, I'm going to say bullish about it and kept talking about Roy and sort of saying, you know,

Daddy would have liked this or your dad would have loved that. And that sort of got me through it because I didn't want Roy not to be spoken about. Yes. I think, you know, talking about the individual, about the person, but then how your feelings can differ to those in the family. Coral, to come to your situation, you became a widow six years ago, I believe. Your email suggests that there are also the practical things to think about, the decisions, whether it's downsizing or, as mentioned, they're moving closer to children if you have them. Yes, well, I did decide to do that after a year, and I think it was the best thing I did because I was living in a sort of off-standards three-bedroom semi in northwest London.

I had a younger son in north London, and, you know, it would take the best part of an hour to get to them by public transport or by car so it was so much nicer now I'm living which is just under a mile from them I mean obviously we do our own thing you know I've got my own life and they're busy working and so on but it's so much nicer to be nearer to them see them you know just walk there if I feel like it or drive so I think that was a good move on my part. I mean, it might not work for everybody, but it's a big step. I was going to say, how important is that independence,

learning that independence again? Even if you weren't that dependent on your other half, it's a big change to make those sorts of decisions, Coral. Luckily, I do drive and I was able to do most things myself, but there are people who can't. And you don't want to keep asking your children to do things for you. You know, they're very busy. And one of the first things I did I needed to think about was to get a different car.

Because I got a big car for carrying all Roy's clobber around in. And I suddenly thought, I don't need this big car anymore. So you go off on your own, sort of trying to find a car. Spoke to my children about it. And they said, Mum said mum you know go for something racy a soft top and you think well actually I know I'm carrying your children around most of the time I've got to get three seats in the back you know so I'm not going to have my Thelma and Louise moment but it's you know when you go to garages and places like that I'm always very careful not necessarily to let people know that I am a widow because you I feel vulnerable there's this definitely thing that you feel like you're you're rich pickings yeah so you you do run the

risk of being ripped off by unscrupulous trades people and um I happen to me it has happened to me yeah yeah I didn't want to be helpless I didn't want to be patronized my kids live nearby as well and so I see them but they interestingly moved up to where I live rather than me moving down to where they live but that was all in motion anyway before Roy died. But also Sue you do have women that you talk to who are in similar positions. I'm really lucky actually Coral because because Roy had dementia I was part of this dementia coffee morning that's been set up here locally, and it's fabulous. And one by one, because of the nature of dementia, people do die.

So I still see about every six weeks a group of ladies who I knew when they had their husbands and who now since their husbands have died, we meet for coffee. And in the first sort of couple of years, you were always talking about your husbands and, you know, things that you've done. But now it's moved on. But there are things that, you know things that you've done but now it's moved on but there are things that you know obviously everybody does things differently and that you know people's grief is individual and people get through things differently but

and some of us are sort of doing probably on the outside better than others and some people probably on the inside doing better than others but it's nice to be able to talk to somebody who's got that common experience and this is again a casual But it's nice to be able to talk to somebody who's got that common experience. And this is, again, a casual group. It's something that we have organised rather than something that's been organised for us. I know that, you know, I do know the difference between sadness and depression.

And I think that a lot of people think that when somebody dies that they become depressed. But I think it's a huge thing to do with sadness. You have to find your way through your sadness. And I think medication for some people may work, but not for everybody. And I don't think that the medical fraternity have actually got this particularly right. I know a lot of people who I know have. Coral, to bring you back in on that, do you have, you mentioned some friends with slightly different positions,

but do you feel you need a network like that's just been described? When I moved, obviously I left some very good close friends behind, but it's not too far for me to go back. But of course, your friends are also ageing with you and some of them are sort of losing mobility. And so it's me making the effort to go there rather than coming here most of the time. But I have made new friends locally. I've joined the U3A. I volunteer. I've met lots of really nice people. But the trouble is when you're, well, I'm approaching 80 now,

and you meet lovely people, but they've all got their little group of close friends who they've known probably since they were young. To form a very close relationship like that, it's difficult because you've got lots of baggage. I don't want to bore people with all the baggage. And my life has been not particularly straightforward. I'm always afraid I'm going to be repeating myself, telling them the same thing over and over. It's a bit tricky, actually.

And what's your view on, because you are now some years on, on finding another partner? Oh, no, I'm not looking for another partner. And I think you would have to actively look for another partner because you just don't meet these men. You meet people and they're usually in a couple and single men are maybe bereaved themselves and they're not looking for anybody. No, I'm not, certainly not.

I mean, my mother lost my dad when she was only 71. He was 79. He died very suddenly of a stroke. And she reacted in a very odd way. It was like she was angry with him for walking out on her, you know, and she threw out a lot of his possessions. And she reacted so strangely. And then five years later, she married again to a man who didn't have a house his own he moved in with her unfortunately my dad hadn't left the wheel and then eventually um she got cancer and he took advantage of that to persuade her to sell the house and they moved into a bungalow in his name i think i suppose and then she died and so you know my brother and i were disinherited i think he turned her against us.

That's really put me off getting married again. Yes, I can hear that. I certainly wouldn't look for anybody, no. If I met somebody and something clicked, then great. But I don't think that's going to happen. Sue, what's your take on this? I will never get married again. But I am in a slightly different position in that I did meet somebody,

actually, purely by accident. It's just one of those sort of lucky flukes, really. And he's very nice. And he's actually lurking somewhere at the moment. I like the idea of him lurking. It sounds lovely. Yeah, carry on. I was lucky. It was a happy accident. A happy accident. Go on, Coral. Could I just ask, Sue, how you met this new person? Walking. I walk a lot. And I was walking and he happened to be parked next to me.

So I found this lovely man walking and he is lovely. But I'm very conscious of the fact that we don't have a shared past. So you're building up some sort of relationship now. But everybody you meet who's members of my family or my friends he's a new person to how do you introduce that person into your shared history it's a strange thing the person that you've been married to you've shared a life with and then you are expecting to spend your old age with that person you've got common experiences you know how the other person tipped you know what's going on and you're comfortable with each other you know you can be grumpy or not be grumpy and then that person goes and you've got this future ahead of you I don't mean I don't

mind being on my own because of the nature of my husband's job I was on my own a lot anyway I was always the primary carer at home so very used to doing lots of things on my own but it's the evenings that sort of drag anything I can only watch so much television I can only knit so many little animals for the grandchildren it happened it happened, it'd be fine. But I just don't see it happening. I mean, I belong to U3A, but most of the, there are more women than men, obviously, and most of the men are in relationships.

University of the Third Age, in case people aren't aware. Yes, U3A. It's a very good organisation for retired people. Would that be one of your tips, just to bring our conversation to a close? You've started this conversation. I'm sure, Coral, we will hear from many of our listeners as well about things that they would say but do you have any tips for perhaps people who are newly in this position

who are newly widowed well you can't do much for the first year you know you just need to be by yourself a bit and with your close family and come to terms with it all social media is a great thing isn't it whatsapp i find whats media is a great thing, isn't it? WhatsApp, I find WhatsApp is a marvellous invention. I mean, I've got my oldest son is in New Zealand, but, you know, we have conversations on WhatsApp and Skype and it's as if they were there with me sometimes. It's so close. I find now I'm so busy.

During the week, I'm very busy, but weekends can drag a bit. But then I quite like the time on my own at the weekend to do the garden or catch up on housework and things. Well, it's lovely to talk to you today, Coral. Thank you very much for getting in touch. Sue, was there anything you just wanted to add? WhatsApp saved my sanity. I agree.

I spent a year just watching the tide come in and out just to consolidate my thoughts, get rid of my guilt and just sort of reflect. I think I spend a lot of time on reflection, actually. Yes, I do yoga. I find that very useful physically and mentally. Well, I'm happy you could both squeeze me into your schedules. It sounds like a competitive space to get into, certainly during the week. Coral, thank you for the initial email and this conversation. And Sue, thank you so much for coming back on. Nice to meet you, Coral. Yes, and you, Sue. Good luck. Bye. Bye-bye. A new friendship, I think, there, beginning between Coral and Sue and some of your messages,

which I hope have time to return to with your experiences of widowhood. Now, let me ask you, have you heard of Rufaida al-Aslamiyah? Born around 620 AD, she was the first female Muslim nurse and surgeon recorded in Islam. Her work was known for her advances in proper hygiene and creation of mobile care units on battlefields. She's a big and very new inspiration for one of our listeners, Sophia from Milton Keynes, a registered nurse and Muslim herself. And I'm pleased to say she joins me on the line because I understand Sophia wasn't aware of her work until a few weeks ago and wishes to learn more and celebrate this forgotten woman. And to help us with that, we're joined now by Dr. Shamaila Anwar from Huddersfield, who has written a blog on forgotten queens of Islam, including the one we're going to talk about now.

Sophia, let me just say good morning to you, first of all, and thank you for writing in. And how did you make your discovery? Oh, hello. Good morning. Thank you for having me on today. So we have a family group chat and it has my mum, my aunties, my cousins, all female cousins. So we just discuss things, travel, recipes, send memes. And we were discussing Florence Nightingale. And then my other cousin mentioned Mary Seacole and how not a lot of people. So we're all aware of Florence Nightingale, but not so much Mary Seacole.

But then I did some more research and then I came across Ruth Fider. And this was only on the 2nd of August. And then, yeah, so I was just doing a lot of research and it was just amazing, like all the facts that you just mentioned. And I'm sure that Shamaila is going to discuss further. It was just, yeah, it was a big inspiration for me. And I was really excited to have found her and share her with everyone. Shamaila, you're going to help us now, I hope, with a bit more information.

Good morning to you. Morning. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for coming to educate us, because we do want to hear about women that we haven't heard about before. What do we need to know about this particular woman? I think it's, for me, on a personal level, I mean, she epitomises the kind of entrepreneurship, the kind of status that women had in the kind of Muslim era, particularly within the golden age of Islam. And all of this kind of knowledge has almost been forgotten. I was in a very lucky position that my mum, kind of having emigrated from Pakistan to the UK,

had some education. So she understood the importance of us knowing about our history and about our culture. So these characters within kind of Muslim history were always something that I grew up with, but I'm conscious that not many people have had that kind of knowledge passed on to them. Yes, and she was working on the battlefields, wasn't she?

She was, absolutely. So, and that's kind of, you know, considering the kind of knowledge and the view that we have of Muslim communities at the moment, which is, you know, we're very insular, we're kind of at odds with women's rights, et cetera. This has kind of been absolutely, you know, it's like dynamite. It's kind of basically completely overturning the views we have of Islam and Muslim culture and the way we treat women.

From the very beginning, you know, going back back in time to when Islam first came into being, we know that our Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was basically a leading light in the way that he treated the women around him at the time, his family, his neighbours, his acquaintances, and that the people of the time were very much led by his example. But just to focus on her, if I can, a bit more detail. For her at this time, what was it like for women and how much of a trailblazer would she have been? Absolutely. To understand that, we need to sort of understand the wider context of the views of women at the time. At the time, you know, before Islam, we know that women were

commodities. You were properties either of your father or of your husband. And actually, women, children were considered to be a great burden. So quite often we hear of stories of infanticide, of women, children being killed, you know, at birth. And so they were not as valued as kind of men in that era. And then in comes Islam and the advent of Islam. We know that that completely overturned everything. And the concept of women's rights and women being equal to men came into being.

We know that, you know, her contributions on the battlefields, which included things like, you know, establishing a code of conduct for nursing, training other women as well to become nurses. And we know that from accounts that she trained a lot of our Prophet Muhammad's wives to be nurses on the battlefield. And all of that then resulted in our Prophet actually recognising her on a par with warriors and soldiers of that time.

And she was given, you know, she was given pay and remuneration based on that. I mean, how fantastic is that? Well, also, I was going to say she had her own clinic as well. Is that right? Yeah, she had. She established a kind of infield clinic and then sort of in peacetime as well. Her work continued. We know that she did a lot of a lot of work around kind of social enterprise, ensuring that, you know, advocating for the education of women,

looking after orphan children, understanding the needs of the community around her. And do you think, I mean, we still are uncovering a lot of women from all parts of history that we don't know very much about. The importance of that is very obvious, especially from somebody like Sophia, who's been in touch to say, just learning about this only a matter of weeks ago. Is there a push to try and get her on the curriculum or more known?

Absolutely. I think across the board, certainly from communities that have made the UK their home, communities that have emigrated in the 50s and 60s and 70s and made the UK their home. We've got to understand, being a firstborn child born in the UK, I mean, like I said, I was very lucky I had that socialisation, but other people within my community have not. So they don't have the same level of knowledge, of history, of characters from history that should be part of our curriculum that are there to help empower our young generation. Shamaila, thank you very much for educating us a bit more this morning.

Of course, we can't do it all in around 10 minutes, but you could definitely get a good head start. Sophia, thank you to you for raising the profile here and letting us know about what you wanted to hear more about and this particular individual woman. It's been very illuminating. And also, you know, when you've been getting in touch this week,

as we say, it's your week, it's Listener Week, you can drive the agenda. Many of you also wanting to say various things about being widows or experience of loss. One here, local authorities, just to say, have weekly walking groups.

Also try the National Women's Register. They are nationwide, meet fortnightly and many go out regularly together. So Coral, if you're still listening, I hope you are and others who've been affected by that story. A bit of advice for you. Thank you as ever for your contributions, which are major this week during Listener Week. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one i'm jade adams and in welcome to the neighborhood i

take a peek at the nation's community apps and message boards for some comedy eavesdropping uh does anyone know who's parked in our drive i got hit by a potato on the high street earlier could you please have some decency and close the curtains if you're having sex each episode i'll be joined in my online curtain twitching by a different guest, including James Acaster. You don't need to put out a theme to the local community. You can just go straight to the police. Sarah Keyworth.

I highly doubt she's read The Highway Code. And Helen Bower. They're inciting a riot in three sentences. Welcome to The Neighbourhood with me, Jade Adams, on Radio 4 and BBC Sounds. who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig,

the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.