Woman's Hour - Listener Week 2020 - paddlesport; the Pill; Nits; Dating over 45;

Episode Date: August 24, 2020

Women and Paddling: kayaking, canoeing, paddle boarding, rafting what are the attractions, what is involved, how can paddle sports help physical and mental health and where are women in these water sports? Following an email from a Woman’s Hour Listener who is passionate about women paddling, Jane speaks to Cadi Lambert, who runs the ShePaddles programme for British Canoeing, and Emma Kitchen, who has started training to be a coach to help people improve their paddle skills and is returning to paddling after some tough years in her personal life and has found new confidence from being on the water.It’s more than 50 years since the contraceptive Pill became widely available in the UK. Several listeners have written in with questions, some concerned about its possible side effects. Can you take the Pill and stop your period? Does the Pill make you gain weight? Should there be a seven day break if you are using it? Julia Hogan, lead contraceptive and sexual health nurse for Marie Stopes, and Dr Rebecca French, Associate Professor of Sexual and Reproductive Health Research, answer your questions and burst some myths.Do we all need to talk more about nits? Listener Louise Somerville thinks so. She’s been a parent for 30 years with three children, and she feels that increasingly schools are inconsistent in how much they help parents deal with nits and that clear advice is lacking. So today we ask how best to deal with nits and head lice, and the stigma attached, and why it matters. With entomologist Richard Jones and Joanna Ibarra from Community Hygiene Concern.Elizabeth got in touch with us about her experience with dating apps when you’re over the age of 45, after finding they weren’t quite what she expected. Dr Martin Graff researches the online dating world and joins us to advise Clare how to best navigate it.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Julia Hogan Interviewed Guest: Dr Rebecca French Interviewed Guest: Cadi Lambert Interviewed Guest: Emma Kitchen Interviewed Guest: Louise Somerville Interviewed Guest: Richard Jones Interviewed Guest: Joanna Ibarra Interviewed Guest: Dr Martin Graff

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour podcast, day one of Listener Week, Monday, August the 24th, 2020. Hi, good morning. It's Listener Week on the programme, so everything we talk about throughout the course of this week has been suggested by you and we're very grateful to you. It's brilliant to have you so much a part of the programme this week. And we kick off today with The Pill. A lot of people want to know more about

The Pill, it would seem. We'll also discuss women and kayaking, canoeing, paddleboarding, all that sort of thing, really popular at the moment. There's a full-on discussion of head lice, nits in popular parlance. It's not that long ago since, to be honest with you, I presented Woman's Hour with nits. There has been a change of headphones. I think it was, to be fair,

about five or six years ago. So nits on the programme today. And if you are single or perhaps you've become single recently and you are approaching the dating game, I really hope you can stay around this morning for a conversation about dating apps when you're in your 40s and older. How has it been for you navigating

what might be a pretty alien world? How has that world treated you? What do you make of it? Do you think men behave very differently to women? Certainly one listener believes that is exactly the case. If you want to take part on social media, it's at BBC Women's Hour today. Right, let's get stuck in and we're starting with the pill. It is more than 50 years since the contraceptive pill became widely

available in the UK. Lots of you have got a lot of questions about it. So joining us, Julia Hogan, lead contraceptive and sexual health nurse for Mary Stokes and Dr Rebecca French, Associate Professor of Sexual and Reproductive Health Research at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. Welcome to you both. Julia, if we can start with you. Why is the pill, the contraceptive pill, still so popular? Hi, Jane. I think there's a number of reasons for that. For one thing it's what we know about so often I find when you go to the doctor to ask for contraception it's what women ask for so they say I want to go on the pill and if you're a busy GP with not a lot

of time that might be the easiest option. Certainly women that I see coming to us at Marie Stopes and in sexual health services, when we'd say, yep, that's fine, you can go on the pill, but do you know about other options? They'll often say, oh, actually, no, nobody's ever spoken to me about them. So it's easy, but also often women don't know that there are other contraceptive methods or other ways of taking the same hormones that are in a combined method, such as the patch or vaginal ring. Right. But the pill is less invasive and seems easy to use. But of course, you have, and this is really important, Rebecca, you've got to remember to take it, haven't you? Yeah, no, it is very important to remember to take it. We know if the pill is taken correctly and consistently,

less than 1% of women will get pregnant within a year's use. But with typical use, and that's maybe with people forgetting to take pills and things, you know, this could increase to 8% and 9% of women. And some studies have shown maybe younger people sometimes find it harder to remember when to take the pill or when they're getting used to taking it. And there are how many different sorts in regular use, Julia,

across the UK? With the combined hormonal pill, I'm not sure, but it must be 12, 15 different brands of pill. And with the progesterone only pill, probably less, probably about four. And does cost come into it? Does a GP look at how expensive the pills might be? Is that for me, Jane? Yes, if you don't mind. Yes, I think that some commissioners

will put a cap on different pills, but to be fair, they're all pretty cheap, to be honest. All right. Rebecca, a lot of people are asking, one of the most popular questions we've had on this subject is, do you need to have a so-called period? It's not actually a period, is it? It's a withdrawal bleed. People are really asking, can I just take the pill all the time? Yeah, I mean, the pill can be taken. The standard way is taking the combined pill you take for 21 days and then you have a seven day break where you might have some dummy pills that don't have hormones in them. And actually, there's no evidence to suggest that people who do more tailored regimes, so losing that break and taking the pill continuously, that there are any negative effects. And in fact, there is suggestion that sometimes side effects may be associated when people are having this hormone free seven days. So they may find they have headaches or

mood changes during this time. So continuously taking the pill might actually reduce these symptoms. Right. So why is it not routine then to simply take the pill all the time? It does seem bizarre, Rebecca, that we've clung to the idea of having that week off. Yeah, I mean, I think some women like to have a breakthrough bleed. Why? I think it's some women feel it sort of mimics their period, so it feels more natural. Some women like to have the bleed thinking or that sort of is showing, you know, that they're not pregnant. You know, that's what, you know, they feel. So I think these are some of the reasons. But and I think, you know, these different tailored regimes are becoming more common now.

So, you know, maybe that's something we will see that maybe more women are opting for that. Julia, what do you think about that? I think women have a complicated relationship to their bleeding. I mean, actually, if you think about a normal cycle when you're not taking any contraception, you do have that fluctuation in moods, sore boobs, libido, things like that. And so I think women, when they have that break in the pill, they do think, oh yeah, that's mimicking that natural cycle. But like Rebecca said, I'm seeing a lot more women who are taking pills back to back. And actually, women have always done this, but they've been afraid to tell health professionals because they've thought, oh, they're going to be told off for doing it. So women have always taken the pill. I'm not going to bleed now because I'm on my holidays. Well, you can understand that. But just to be absolutely clear and to nail this, it isn't harmful, Julia, to keep taking the pill and not have that bleed?

Not at all. And in fact, it can increase the effectiveness of the pill because you're not having that dip in your hormones. So yeah, it's good to do that. Right. That's interesting, isn't it? Rebecca, let's talk about potential links to cancer. What about that? Is there an increased risk of getting some sorts of cancer? cancer um but um this risk declines over time once women have stopped taking the um combined oral contraceptive pill um i think the other thing that's maybe not so well known is the benefits of taking the pill um you know where ovarian endometrial cancer, and even colorectal cancer, your risk decreases. And maybe that's not so commonly known. I think, Julia, you've got some positive things to say about it in terms of the benefits of the pill. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. For one thing, I think that it can really help your mental health if you're in control of your fertility it's the pill is very much in the women's control so if if you're not having sex

regularly your partner's away you can not be using a method of contraception and then you can start it you don't have to keep going back to a health professional for that, especially as we now can give a year's worth of pill out at the first visit. So it can improve your skin. And like I say, you've got control over your bleeding. Yeah, I think a lot of younger women perhaps with skin conditions they're concerned about, the pill can honestly actively help with skin conditions. Are there particular sorts you'd recommend? Yeah, it can massively help with skin conditions? Are there particular sorts you'd recommend? Yeah, it can massively help with skin.

I mean, really, it can transform women's skin, especially young women, if you get the right pill. And it's important to say there are lots of different types. So you may start on one and give it three to six months. And then if that method isn't suiting you then you can go back to your provider and say oh this isn't right this is the side effect I've got and then we can try a different pill there are lots of different types. Can we just briefly talk about weight gain because this is something that has been a fairly constant worry does it make you put on weight? Rebecca? There's no clear evidence at all that weight

gain is associated with the combined oral contraceptive pill. I mean, I think sometimes with side effects, there could be other factors going on. I don't know, you're starting a new relationship, you're sitting in front of the TV more with your partner, eating pizza, things like that. So there could be other reasons you're gaining weight. But certainly the evidence suggests there is no clear evidence of weight gain. All right. And the menopause, as you approach the menopause and perhaps you're in the perimenopausal years, is there any evidence at all, Julie, that being on the pill can help? Yes, actually, it can help with those hot flushes.

It can help protect bones up to the age of 50. As long as there's no other contraindications to being on a combined pill, then you could stay on that and it can help. Once you get over 50, and if you were thinking of going on to HRT, it's probably best to ask to see a GP or a menopause specialist that can help you look at the right doses of HRT combined with contraception so that it can support you through that period of time. All right, I want to get through as many questions as possible. Rebecca, does it affect fertility? Yeah, there's no delay in terms of return to fertility.

The one method where there may be some delay is the injectable contraception. How long might you have to wait before trying to get pregnant if you've been using that? The injectables, Julia might know off the top of her head more than me but you know it can be up to three to six months all right but with the pill you can take your last one and you could get pregnant two weeks later yes yeah yeah there's no evidence of a delay okay um what about this is from barbara who emailed to say that we don't talk about the side effects enough. She said she ended up with a bilateral DVT.

I don't know which one of you is best to answer that. Rebecca? Yeah, again, there is a small risk of having a clot in your veins and most commonly those are sort of in your legs. But I think you've got, it's very small. Women not using the combined oral contraception, their risk is 2 in 10,000. This increases to 5, 12 per 10,000 women. So it's very small numbers. And, you know, I think the thing is, if there are any signs in terms of swelling in your legs, you know, you should seek help immediately. But it's a very small risk. Yeah, of course. I

mean, everything has a risk, of course, regardless of what it is. Is there any evidence at all that it can affect libido? Anecdotally, some people say it can change the way you feel about your partner. I mean, obviously, it depends change the way you feel about your partner. I mean, obviously, it depends on the woman, depends on the pill, presumably. But have either of you heard these stories? I certainly hear this in my practice. But I hear that about all contraceptive methods, even ones with a really low dose of hormones, to be fair. And it is hard to say isn't it because certainly i've taken implants

out of women when they've said it's affected their libido and then they've come back to me later saying oh can you put one back in because actually it was the guy i was sleeping with not the not my implant that was causing that so yes i mean that that surely that has to be a factor is it just that women are groping around, that's probably the wrong term, looking for an explanation or perhaps their male partners are? Rebecca, what would you say about that? They tend to come from quite small studies that have looked at libido. And as Julia notes, I mean, there could be all sorts of other things going on, like your age, your general health or what medicines you're using. So, yeah, I would say there's no clear evidence that it affects sex drive. All right. Thank you very much, Dr Rebecca French,

Associate Professor of Sexual and Reproductive Health Research at London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, and Julia Hogan, Lead Contraceptive and Sexual Health Nurse for Mary Stokes. There we go. I hope that's answered a few queries. Interesting that younger women, and perhaps not just younger women, are ditching the idea of the withdrawal bleed and just taking the pill all the time. Any views on that you can let us know and send us your emails we'll put them into the Woman's Hour podcast available later. Now our next topic in Listener Week all the items we're discussing this week suggested by you and we're very grateful to you we should emphasise that. Fiona emailed to say she would just like to suggest coverage of hashtag she paddles and the initiative by the British Canoeing and Canoe Wales to get more women out paddling.

So we're talking here about canoeing, kayaking, paddle boarding, rafting. Katie Lambert runs the She Paddles programme for British Canoeing. And Emma Kitchen has just started training to be a coach to help people improve their paddle skills. Welcome both. Katie, we'll start with you. Tell us, just give us an idea of the range of sports you're talking about here that's a fantastic thing with paddle sport there is such a range you can do anything from sort of gentle paddling on a canal in a canoe to sort of white water adrenaline everything in between And also the big new thing that a lot more people are doing, especially women, we're finding is stand-up paddleboarding,

which can be done on a range of different waters again. It's an absolutely fantastic sport for pretty much anyone of any age and any ability. Yeah, you say that, but you must need a degree of fitness to even begin, Katie. I would say you don't need a degree of fitness, you know, to get into a boat and go for a gentle paddle. It's great because it doesn't put pressure on your joints and things. It's actually a really good way to begin getting fit.

Yes, to get started on your fitness journey and also to do it in a beautiful setting as well. And you can't do it on your own. You do need to be with other people, which I guess is also a really nice thing. Great for mental health as well. Exactly. Yes. It's wonderful for meeting new people. You can go down to your local club or centre, go on a course, get your initial skills and meet lots of new people. And also the online community, the women's paddling community online, meeting people through that and getting advice on getting started. That's a really great way of doing it. All right. Let's bring in you, Emma.

I know that you've recently got back into the sport. How has it helped you? It's been absolutely amazing for me. My life changed quite drastically about three years ago um and um it's really helped me to i hate using the phrase uh find myself but um it's really helped me to to remember who i am and get back to the things i used to enjoy when i was a lot younger yeah don't worry about using phrases like that because actually i think they're really important and there's no reason why you shouldn't embrace the person you really were, because I know you've had a few issues.

What does it do for you? Is it being outdoors? Is it conquering something? Take me there. It's a bit of everything, really. So I'm a massive advocate for the great outdoors. I think it's wonderful for so many things, fitness, mental health, just generally great well-being. But also there is an element of wanting to conquer things and, you know, trying to push yourself. So I'm very happy paddling on flat water. You know, I'm like a nice sheltered river. But at the same time, I quite like the adrenaline rush as well.

So I do whitewater kayaking and I've just started recently doing whitewater stand-up paddle boarding as well. Right. I mean, that's not for the faint-hearted, surely. There's more than an adrenaline rush there. There's different, we call them different grades. So there's different difficulty levels in the rivers. So you get some nice, gentle little rapids that you can learn on. And then there's a lot of things that some of my friends do, which are quite big and scary to me. Yeah. The Sunday Times yesterday had a headline,

Up the coast without a paddleboard, emergency calls soar for water sports. Katie, in your experience, are novices creating problems for the emergency services at the moment? I wouldn't call them a problem, but it would be wonderful if people could get some basic safety advice before they get out on the water the go paddling website go paddling.info has got absolutely masses of brilliant articles and we've published lots more recently realizing that there are more people out on the water after lockdown just to get people give people an idea of what they need to think about before they go but we would always recommend that people do start off by going to a club or centre, just getting some initial skills,

because it really does help to have those basic skills before they go out. Yeah, and you have to be able to swim more than competently, presumably. You have to be confident in water. And certainly if you're going out independently, we would recommend that you can swim, but you don't have to be able to swim to get started with a club or centre.

You just need to be confident in water because you will have a buoyancy aid on. It's really important that if you can't swim, you would always wear a buoyancy aid, but we do recommend that you generally wear them unless you're on a paddleboard where you are attached to the paddleboard. So some people prefer not to wear them on that, if you're a beginner it's just always best to wear one and emma the the kit you need what do you need to get started um well a kayak paddle um a buoyancy aid or i would even go as far as saying if you're confident in water but can't swim um go for a life jacket instead because that helps you float on your back, whereas a buoyancy aid doesn't care which way up you float. Depending on the type of water you're doing, a helmet as well is really useful.

That's basically the real basics that you would need, obviously a kayak, a canoe or a paddleboard, depending on what discipline you want to go down. I haven't got a clue. How much is a second-hand kayak going for these days um that's a bit of a uh one at the moment actually because um it's because it's so popular it's become quite um quite expensive by second hand because the people want them the demand is there um but usually it depends on how new it is. Anything from between £100 to £400 for a second-hand one, maybe

even more. Okay, well I suppose it's just about within reach. If you're really keen you'll probably make the investment. Emma, you're obviously somewhere outdoors. Where are you at the moment? I'm, sorry, yes, in Norfolk, hence the fighter planes going over. I'm actually on a campsite in Norfolk on holiday.

You say that lightly as though Britain's been invaded and no one's told us at Radio 4, but it's In Norfolk, hence the fighter planes going over. I'm actually on a campsite in Norfolk on holiday with my company. You say that lightly as though Britain's been invaded and no one's told us at Radio 4, but presumably they're not alien fighter planes going over. We'll find out soon enough. The news is on at 11 o'clock. It's been that kind of year, really, hasn't it? Emma, thank you very much. You're welcome.

Enjoy the rest of it. I think you're on holiday, aren't you? Thank you very much for joining us this morning. And Katie Lambert from She Paddles. That's the, you can have, follow the hashtag She Paddles as well. It's all part of British canoeing. If that's something that's whetted your appetite, no pun intended, and you want to get started on some sort of water sport

and you're keen to kick it off sooner rather than later. Tomorrow, because it's Listener Week all week, we're going to talk about being a young mother. We'll talk to Daisy, who's 24 and has a nine-month-old son. Later in the week, we're going to talk about walking the coastal path in Wales. We're talking about bulimia. We're talking about tending graves and female clan chiefs. All British human life, female life, certainly, is here throughout this week.

Nits. Louise Somerville thinks we need to talk more about nits and she joins us now. Hi Louise, good morning to you. Hi, good morning. Are you all right? I'm good. I'm excited about paddling actually. Yeah, well you're here to talk about nits. I'm glad you've been excited about paddling as well so that's good. You can get on to that later after we've tackled the head lice issue. I think head lice have been would it be fair to say they've played a part in your life i mean they've played a part in mine as i said at the beginning of the program um your kids are how old louise um well my eldest uh is 29 he's nearly 30 um i also have a son who's

26 and i have an 11 year old which is why head lice is a current issue for me. And you believe, and I think this is interesting, that there's a sort of feminist side to this. That's correct. When I first came across head lice, my now sort of very grown-up child was at a small rural village primary school and the letter came home from school and it was a really clear letter I remember being in shock at the time and thinking oh my goodness what's this the infestation feeling scared about it feeling a little bit vulnerable about it yeah was grateful because not only was there a very clear letter written about the lifespan how to deal with them what the technique was but there was also an illustration with drawings, followed by a note saying, nip along to the school office, and there were combs available, two pounds each. So it was not a stigma. It wasn't a stigma at that time. Everybody had the

latter. The conversations were happening more, and wet combing with conditioner was definitely the recommended method. And now the situation seems quite different. Because? My best guess is that my youngest son has been at a junior school with two male head teachers and my best guess is that they are not combing their children's hair. And having spoken to a few parents recently I've discovered that it appears to be the mums that are mostly on the case with dealing with the headcombing and I'm thinking that those

head teachers are not recognising that this is a public health issue that it really affects families and our children it takes a lot of time to deal with it and the sooner we are notified of an outbreak the sooner we can deal with it. All right. Stay with this, Louise. Let's bring in entomologist Richard Jones and Joanna Ibarra, who's from Community Hygiene Concern. Richard, first of all, when head lice, well, when did they first start? That's an idiotic question, but they seem to have always been with us. Oh, they have, yes. Head lice have been with humans even before we were human. So many hundreds of thousands of years. And they've adapted incredibly well to survive so long on our heads. Yeah. And they used to be told they only like clean hair. True? In fact, any hair at all, the cleanliness of the hair is completely irrelevant.

One of the things that I think people don't realize is how active head lice are, how fast they are. We've got this idea of these vermin living amongst the stalks of our hair on our heads. But actually, if you ever see one moving around, I wanted to photograph one many years ago, and I combed one out of my children's hair and put it on some snipped ends of hair on an envelope. And it was very difficult following the beast up and down. They're supremely adapted. If you look at them under a microscope, always a delight. They've got the most amazing claws

which are exactly the right size to fit on to human hair. You know, I don't make a practice of asking men to send me photographs for a string of reasons, but I wouldn't mind seeing that photograph of that knit, if you don't mind, Richard, if that's possible. I'll see if I can hook it out. It was quite a few years ago. I think we'd like to share that with the Woman's Hour audience.

OK, so all different sorts of hair, all ethnicities, every single human can have knits. There's no doubt about that. Absolutely none at all right um so yes wherever you are in the world there are nits right and to get rid of them first of all um to be sort of counterintuitive does it matter if you've got them um it's probably not uh on head lice um the thing one of the biological factors to take in is that um head lice. The thing, one of the biological factors to take in is that head lice and body lice are very similar. And whether we call them one species or two species

is pretty arbitrary. And we're very lucky that head lice really don't cause us any fuss. But body lice, which I think is luckily something that we've eradicated now, spread diseases, mostly through their feces getting into cuts in the skin and there are awful reports usually in times of war or famine or mass migration terrible disasters where people have got nothing except the clothes they they lie down in and those clothes are infested and the reports of 50 000 lice being retrieved

from these people and at that point it's unlikely that anemia through blood loss is going to be an issue but there was certainly the allergic reaction to the saliva that they inject which has anticoagulant properties there is that is a real issue and that's why of course people feel lousy um they get irritable they have a slight temperature uh they can't focus um and this this is why yeah and the nitty-gritty of course which is in your hair which is that the droppings and the idea of a numb skull because you've lost the feeling in your skull because you've been bitten so many times. But these all show that really seriously heavy infestations can have an effect.

Right. I did not know that the term numb skull originated there. Joanne Ibarra from Community Hygiene Concern, what do you advise if a family has nits? What's the solution well first let's pick up on the fact that lice move very quickly in dry hair but if they are bathed in moisture if they're really wet they stay still and the easiest way to get your hair really wet is to wash it with ordinary shampoo and then put on any conditioner and that will keep the lice really wet and sodden and soaking while you are facilitated with untangling and straightening the hair with an ordinary wide-tooth comb. And then you can come in with a bright yellow bug-buster comb

and hook them out very easily. And that's the way that you know that you've got life. Yeah, now this can take... And that's the easy way to address it. Well, you say easy. It's quite time-consuming, isn't it, depending on the length of hair? Yes, but you've got to bear in mind that if you don't detect lice, and this is the way to detect it when you've got a low number of lice on the head, unbeknown to you, because they're probably not even causing

telltale itching, your child might be passing them on and picking them up from other children whose parents don't know that their children have got life. And they're going round and round and round, which means that lots of people end up doing successive treatments one after another when they realize that there's a problem. So we introduced bug busting, wet combing detection of lice days. The next one is Halloween, 31st of October. And the simplest way for schools to bring parents back in and keep them informed and get their united action going is to inform them about our helpline. There's a one-to-one helpline all right well yeah okay we are i'm sure we can put links up on our website so people can get some more information about that

i'm quite interested louise in your theory about height and knits can you just remind me of that well it's something i saw on twitter this morning i looked to see if any men were talking about head lice or if again it was just the women yes and one mum put that her child touchwood had never had an infestation of head lice and another parent responded with is your child tall yeah and and it turns out that according to the mums on twitter that if your child is tall, their heads are further away from the other children and that life seem to move down. But I'm also particularly interested in what Richard said about the speed and how Joanna countered that by saying that when your hair is very wet, they don't move as fast. So I'm going to put myself in the firing line of embarrassment now and say that when combing my hair a couple of weeks ago, because we've had a recent outbreak of head lice in July during lockdown, strangely enough, I was combing on one side and then I felt that there was there was an itch or a movement on the other side of my head.

So then I moved the comb to the other side and i'm practically thinking this is ridiculous head lice don't have a brain they can't move away from the comb is there any point in coming one side of my head and then quickly moving to the other side or should i be going all the way around the head in a more orderly fashion very briefly that's one for richard yes several centimeters a second or a couple of centimetres a second they can move, they're incredibly fast. Yes, it's funny how you can sometimes feel them crawling around. I'm quite proud, I think, to be the only man who's ever combed and knit a headlouse out of his hair, and then presented it as an exhibit that same day at a meeting of a national entomological society how proud you

your whole family must be they they are yes i remind them of this all the time um the speed they move is incredible and i think that's something to take into account when thinking about um head lice transferring around the classroom and as a good biogeography analogy that you can borrow here, and that your child's head is not a lone island, they don't have an infestation that you have to cope with. They're part of an archipelago. And a head louse can start on one child and possibly move through half a dozen other heads before it gets to the end of the day in a classroom. They really are incredibly active. And because they're very small, people miss that key biological point.

And that's actually how infestations get around so fast. Thank you all very much. I think we've all learned something in the last 10 minutes or so. Richard Jones, Joanna Ibarra and Louise in Somerset, who is our listener, who kicked the whole thing off. I know that we did have an email towards the end of last week from a listener who said her children had just gone back to school in Scotland. Within 48 hours, the knit letter had come home. So knits are certainly back at school in common with some British school children. I know more to go back over the next couple of weeks.

Now, I promised you a conversation about dating apps and being in your 40s and indeed your 50s. Elizabeth is a listener who wanted to talk about this during Listener Week. She joins us now. Elizabeth, good morning to you. Good morning. Now, Elizabeth, just tell us a little bit about yourself. You are newly single for a start. Yes, been single just a couple of years now. And so it is a new thing for me.

The last time I was probably properly single was when I was in sixth form, which is a very long time ago. And dating had changed whilst you'd been married. I was probably properly single was when I was in sixth form, which is a very long time ago. And dating had changed whilst you'd been married. And the dating apps in particular, just tell me a little bit about your experience of using them. I was recommended by a male friend to have a go at a couple of different dating apps, which I did. And I found that rather than being empowering, as one of them claims it is for women, it was actually quite confidence destroying when you find that you invest time and energy and effort into matching with people, starting a conversation

with them, only to find that they either have right swiped on just about every woman on the app because they want to see how many swipes they get in return. It's a little dopamine hit for them. It makes them feel good. Or perhaps, and especially during lockdown, it's a way for them to while away the evening, perhaps if the football's a bit boring, and they really have no intention of ever getting as far as going on a date with you.

And you don't think that women use them in the same way? I think perhaps as a woman, you. And you don't think that women use them in the same way? I think perhaps as a woman you set out thinking I'll go on this app I'll put myself out there if you've just come out of a relationship your self-esteem might be a little bit low anyway and to then find you're sort of being used as a bit of an ego boost I don't think women would do that in reverse perhaps I'm wrong but it seems to me that we go into it more with the idea that this is a way to meet people. Elizabeth, stay with us. Dr. Martin Graff is a senior lecturer in psychology at the University of South Wales. This is your area, Martin, you've researched it. Is Elizabeth on to something? I think what you said is pretty

accurate in some respects. The same seems to be the case as well, I think, for said is pretty accurate in some respects. The same seems to be the case as well, I think, for women. There's evidence to suggest that women kind of use this as well as men, dating apps and dating sites to get that kind of little bit of a self-esteem boost. So I think, you know, both sexes might be guilty of that. But I can appreciate the whole kind of problem of, you know, using this and not getting much success. That is the kind of thing which obviously is going to sort of put you off. But I guess we have to realise that, you know, dating as you get a little bit older is probably different to how it was when you were younger. Yeah, but can I just put it to you? And I think we'll get onto this in a minute with Elizabeth.

It's not quite so different for men as it is for women, particularly when it comes to age. In what way? Well, because men feel absolutely no problem at all in dating considerably younger than their real age, whereas women miraculously in their 40s and 50s are expected to start finding men 20 years older than them attractive? So I think, well, I don't know, I'm not too sure about that. But I think it's just a case. OK, let's ask Elizabeth what she thinks. Go on, Elizabeth. I've certainly found that when you look at certain sites,

it will tell you that the man is looking for women, they might be, say, 52, 53, and they're looking for a woman who is under the age of 43. And it's almost as though they do not want to date women their own age. They want to sort of go back in time and date somebody younger. Now, that's not to say that as a woman, I wouldn't want to date somebody younger as well. But I do feel like quite a few of my male friends have admitted to me, and they're the same age as me or a little bit older,

that I wouldn't ever come up in their feed because I'm too old. Okay. Back to you, Martin. Okay. So I think that is the case. And there's a kind of very good sort of biological reason, which I'm a bit too long to explain at the moment. Give us a whirl. Go on, tell us what it is. Okay, fine. Well, it's an evolutionary psychology explanation. And you're going to hate me for saying this, but sort of fertility is related to how you look. Outwardly, men retain the fertility

longer than women, generally. Therefore, that accounts for that kind of age disparity. But what we have to do really, just come back to it and not to sort of end on that point, is to be realistic, I think, and not to sort of go into this, men and women, with a kind of shopping list, a kind of list of requirements, if you like. That's the kind of mistake I think people make,

male and female. What, do you mean too choos the kind of mistake I think people make, male and female. What, do you mean too choosy? Not necessarily too choosy, but kind of just, you know, drop that kind of assessment mindset, trying to sort of imagine, you know, who you might look at and who you think you might have a good time with, rather than coming in with that kind of shopping list of requirements which you want, which is kind of natural to do after you've been in a relationship for so long, I guess. I don't want to want to well i am going to give away the fact that i talked to elizabeth before the program i talked to her about half eight this morning and

elizabeth just remind well not remind but tell the listeners what we were talking about earlier because i'm particularly interested in the fact that you had invested in a really long conversation with a man i think it was four hours, five hours. And then what happened? I did. And what happened was we chatted away. And the way I felt about it was that there seemed to be a rapport there. And then suddenly, having said sort of, we'll chat again tomorrow, he just unmatched me and disappeared. And I think the analogy I used this morning was, I don't think you'd catch someone's eye in a bar if you were out for the evening, sit at a table with them, have a drink, spend a few hours chatting, and then halfway through a sentence, they get up and walk out the door without a backward glance. It would feel very strange to do that. And yet,

with apps and online dating, that seems to be the norm. That is a kind of sad reality, I guess, of the online world, because of what we call kind of a little bit of a disinhibition effect, if you like, that people are less inhibited about how they might act. I'm sorry to hear that, but that is kind of what not often, but can happen. People can disappear without a count. I mean, it feels like we're getting at men who use dating apps here, Martin. But without giving too much away, I do hear from people that this kind of thing does happen and it tends to be men behaving in this way. OK, yeah. And like I said, I think that's just a sad reality of the online world that people will do that.

I'm not sure there's evidence to suggest that men do it more than women or women do it more than men. OK, well, let's put it out. I know our listeners are going to respond to this item. Elizabeth, you can only talk from your own experience, can't you? I can. And I didn't really expect to have to, as one friend put it, get skin as tough as an alligator when I went to online dating. It was sort of the thing where you think, it'll be nice, I'll go out and I'll meet some new people. And I have actually made some friends through the dating apps, male friends, who has been the upside of it. But I do feel like at a time when perhaps you're new to this and things have changed a lot, if you've been married for 20 or more years, it is a bit of a shock when you suddenly realise that the normal good manners that might apply

if you were on an evening out just simply do not apply online. Quick word from you, Martin? Yeah, there's a whole different kind of set of, somewhat of a better phrase, set of rules around this. You know, people act differently online. They do face-to-face. And, you know, the online dating world is different to the sort of meeting face to face world, if you like.

There are more people, but people might act rather more unpleasantly then than they might face to face. We're kind of accountable face to face and we're not accountable online. Therefore, that probably accounts for these things happening. Thank you, Martin. That's Martin Graff. And Elizabeth, are you going to keep going or packing it in for a while or what's your approach going to be? I think I'm going to just concentrate on enjoying myself.

I'm furloughed at the moment. I'm looking at doing some voluntary work and I think I'm going to concentrate on that more than I am looking at dating sites because I think sometimes you look back on a day and think, oh, well, that was a waste of time. I could have spent my time much more productively, so I'm going to do that instead.

That was Elizabeth. It's not actually her real name, but that was the name we chose for her this morning and she was one of our listener contributors to the first day of Listener Week on the programme. And thanks to everybody who's emailed and tweeted with suggestions. We really, really appreciate it. And I think a lot of people actually just enjoy hearing

what other listeners want to hear about. So it's pretty positive stuff on the whole. Now, to the conversation with Elizabeth, quite a big reaction from you. Jo on email says, my experience is that men do have unrealistic expectations of who they can date. Online dating for them is like picking out their dream car, but without the budget.

Men my age, I'm 44, are looking for women in their mid-30s. I felt I had to start looking for men in their early 50s and hope they took a more mature approach to relationships. Eventually, I gave up online dating, says Jo. Victoria says I learnt from two rounds of online dating to meet straight away rather than spend a load of time on communication and to never contact any men looking for younger women. I am now engaged to someone I met online.

From Sue, I met my husband online 13 years ago today. We were both 62. We were married a year ago and I have never been happier. Oh, Sue, well, congratulations. It's good to get a positive story. We were both widowed, Sue goes on to say. Before we met, I spent years dating online and of, met good, bad and indifferent men. My advice is to stick at it and you may well find happiness. There we are. Tim says, I agree with Elizabeth. It is time consuming, hard work, expensive and it can be disheartening.

Agencies could help by only publishing profiles with photos. Rule one, ensure you know where the delete button is before you chat. Those deleted will not be able to make any additional contact. And please note, not all blokes are predatory and some women are. Right. I absolutely take that. From Tom, I'm a 53 year old man who has met and is now going out with a 55-year-old woman. So there we are. Helen, slightly cynically, says it strikes me that that story that Elizabeth told about the man who disappears suddenly after a four-hour conversation online. I think his wife's just come in, says Helen.

I don't know why I'm laughing because it is possible, unfortunately, isn't it? Thank you for that Helen and David in my experience women behave just the same as she says men do and have done so long before the internet dating started she needs

says David to be more realistic okay well a range of opinion there but I'm just very grateful to Elizabeth for coming on because it's not always the easiest topic to talk about. And as I say, a lot of people who have been out there and have tried it and have suffered a bit. It isn't easy. I think you do need a thick skin. They would have enjoyed somebody else just talking through some of the issues. The pill. Jan says, thank you so much for that conversation about the pill, but why has it taken so long? I took the pill throughout the 70s and found the effects of the withdrawal period very unpleasant, particularly night sweats, which left me feeling exhausted.

I thought that break in taking it was essential, but found the only way to continue to work effectively was to take the pill continuously until I could book a holiday about every three months in order to take the break. I always imagined it must be men who thought women would ever want unnecessary periods. Isn't that interesting? I mean, I think we have done this issue on Woman's Hour before in the past. There are all sorts of theories about why the people who came up with the pill had that break. And I know the Catholic Church was consulted. And yeah, there really was the theory. The theory was out there that women would, quote, like a period. I mean, if you're out there and you've thoroughly enjoyed a period,

do let us know. But I've got to say, it was never a highlight for me. Pat says, I'm 71 and I took the pill from 17 until post-menopause with three childbirth breaks. And once it was recommended, I used the coil. The pill for me, though, was wonderful. No side effects. Best thing to happen for women. Complete control over childbirth for the first time ever. But there's always another side to it. Lucy on email says the pill messed up my body catastrophically and did to many of my friends as well infertility problems

psychosis lack of libido depression and years without ovulation i think it's a complex issue says lucy now on to oh knits so many I could spend the rest of the day reading out some of your theories on knits. But I just want to bring in Phyllis, who describes herself as a tall, sorry, I'm just using the screen here. My remedial mouse training, which I had some years ago, still comes in handy. Phyllis says, as a tall primary school teacher, I've caught head lice countless times. I'm afraid they don't just move from head to head, but also from head to clothes. After one child gave me a spontaneous hug, I happened to look down and found a head louse marching north up my top towards my head. How very lovely. Now, Richard, our entomologist who took part in the conversation, did indeed tweet that image he told us about.

And Women's Hour has retweeted it. So if you're looking for that lovely, lovely shot of the head louse in action, then you can go to the Women's Hour Twitter feed and you'll see it. It's absolutely gorgeous. Lindsay is in Australia. She's an ex-head teacher from the UK. Extremely familiar, she says, with all that is head lice ridden, including myself. She does say social distancing should surely be the demise of the knit, however speedy. Well, I don't know about that, actually.

Yeah, I mean, if they more sort of athletic l, might be able to bounce about from one bonds to another, there's a suggestion that that might be possible. And what else have we got on it? Oh, yes, it's from Julia on Twitter. I recall the 1960s knit nurse who went to schools and checked every child's hair with a comb and disinfectant as we stood in line. Never worried it would be me, only giggled.

But our hair was washed once a week, if that. Cut to my 80s and 90s kids who got knit six or more times from nursery onwards. Well, Julia, yeah, I too stood in line for Knitty Nora, the head explorer, who also, if I remember rightly, checked your nails. She also looked at your fingernails. That definitely happened in Liverpool in the 70s.

Quite what they were looking for there. I suspect it might have been... What would that have been? Just signs of... I suppose signs of neglect? I don't know. I certainly remember trembling in the line for Nitti Nora, who certainly didn't just do heads. She also looked at your nails. Now,

water sports, paddle boarding. This is important from Kerry. did I hear your contributors suggesting it was okay to go out on a paddle board and not be able to swim first ridiculous says Kerry it should be the first vital skill well I was a bit surprised by that myself I mean I did say to them surely you need to be able to swim really pretty competently to even attempt it I mean I'm with you Kerry I don't think it would be ridiculous to attempt something like that if you weren't a good swimmer. Jane says, I went kayaking on the Jurassic Coast last weekend for the first time in my life. I'm 58 this week. My girlfriend had to persuade me because I didn't realise that in a kayak,

you're sitting on top and not with the legs snug into the vessel, where I'd imagined I might struggle to get free if I tipped. You don't tip over, however. It was energetic yet restful, and it felt very peaceful. I thoroughly recommend it. There you go. That does sound positive. And from Beverly, I'm 67, just went back to kayaking after 25 years. You don't need to buy all this expensive kit at once. Many UK coastal and canal areas

have local clubs that you can join and they'll lend you equipment for a small amount. Water sport is a beautiful way to travel through the natural landscape and build healthy and trusting relationships with others who enjoy nature. I think we'll pack it in today on a positive note. Tomorrow on day two of Listener

Week, we're talking about, well, finding out that you're pregnant unexpectedly at the age of 23 and having to get to grips with it in a very short period of time. So that's one of our items tomorrow. And we're also looking forward to talking to a listener who's just exploring nature in a wonderful way by walking the Wales coastal path. So she is on the programme tomorrow. And we're still, I think we're still open for ideas. So if you've got anything you're desperate to talk about, let us know what it is. You can email the programme via the website bbc.co.uk slash womanshour.

Are you still there? Good. There's someone I want you to meet. Their name is Sean, they're 16, and they're in trouble. Follow Sean's journey by subscribing to Power Up on BBC Sense. The world is dying. It's time to take action. Power Up.

Power Up. Power Up. Power Up. Power Up. Power Up. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.