Woman's Hour - Listener Week 2025: Seatbelts and busts, Recruitment and AI, Married but living apart

Episode Date: August 4, 2025

To kick this week off, we heard from listener Melanie Williams. Melanie is forever having to adjust her seatbelt because of her bust size. She worries if she were to be in an accident she would end up choking or being strangled by her seatbelt rather than protected by it. Melanie joins Nuala McGovern to discuss, along with motoring journalist Maria McCarthy who has been looking into the issue. How might the use of AI in recruitment be negatively impacting women's chances of finding work? Listener Valerie joins Nuala to talk about the challenges of being shortlisted for jobs. They are also joined by Judy Wajcman, Emeritus Professor at the London School of Economics and Political Science, she has written extensively on the relationship between gender, science and technology, and Lauren Spearman who is a careers content creator and brand consultant. After 30 years of marriage, Margaret Murphy moved from the family home in Australia to the UK—alone. Fifteen years later, she and her husband are still married, despite living on opposite sides of the world. She believes her later-life choices reflect a freer, more modern way to look at traditional married life—one that may appeal to listeners. Amy Ennion is a 32-year-old engineer from Surrey, who in her spare time, is an ultra-marathon swimmer. She has swum the English Channel, the length of Lake Windermere twice, she has swum Lac Leman in Geneva for 28 hours straight and just a few weeks ago she swam the length of Loch Ness! After her mother and partner wrote into Woman's Hour about her, Amy tells us what it’s like to swim for such an extreme period of time. Have you ever wondered what it’s like to stand in front of a room full of strangers and make them laugh? Listener Susan Warlock wanted to explore older women taking up stand-up comedy. At 66, she decided to try it herself – and after just one gig, she was completely hooked. She joins Nuala along with writer, performer & stand-up comedy teacher Rach Sambrooks. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. deal ratings and price history. So you know a great deal when you see one. That's cargurus.ca. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Thank you very much. Well, hello and welcome to Listener Week on Woman's Hour. This is the week where the ideas you send us come to life on air. First off, thanks to all of you who helped to create today's program. We have great discussions coming up. Maybe you're driving as you listen to us this morning.

Well, if so, how does your seat belt feel? One of our listeners says having a large bust means most seatbelts make for an uncomfortable drive. Well why is that and how much do car companies take women's anatomy into consideration when it comes to safety? We're going to hear more on that topic and if it's something that you have thought about or are thinking about text us of course if driving pull over and the number is 84844. Also coming up today the woman who at the age of 57 decided to leave Australia and live out her dreams in London. She left her husband behind in Brisbane but

remains happily married 15 years later. Margaret will tell us why she believes a long-distance marriage can be a more modern way to be married. If you have an unusual set up or one that you see as a more modern way to be married, I want to hear all about it. Text, as I've mentioned, is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. You can email us through our website or for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. The number is 0 700 100 444. Another job seeking listener got in touch, and this was about finding

the search frustrating with artificial intelligence, at least partly to blame. So coming up that listener and we'll also hear in detail how AI is impacting recruitment. And speaking of AI, this is what came up in my search this morning about Loch Ness. While swimming in Loch Ness is possible, it is not recommended due to the extremely cold water temperatures, even in summer. Now, that is a message that did not get through to my guest, Amy Enion, who just swam it last week.

She'll be here and we'll hear why. And doing stand up comedy in later life. One listener wanted us to explore it as she took the plunge last year. So wonderful ideas, looking forward to all of them. Keep any more ideas coming 84844, which I'll talk about a little later in the programme. But let us begin. Quite unusual and brutal. That is how listener Valerie Van Collie described the job market that she is navigating at the moment.

Valerie also pointed to the use of artificial intelligence or AI in recruitment and how it may be negatively impacting women's chances of landing a job. Well, Valerie joins us this morning. Welcome, Valerie. Hello. Good to have you with us. Also in studio with me are two people who've been thinking about this deeply. We've Judy Wiseman, Emeritus Professor at the London School of Economics and Political Science. She's written extensively on the relationship

between gender, science and technology. Also Lauren Spearman, careers content creator and brand consultant. Welcome to both of you as well. Thank you. Okay, Valerie, what prompted you to get in touch while on this job search? Well, part of it is because it did catch me completely off guard. Having been working for nearly 20 years, I have previously looked for jobs. So when I entered at this time, I kind of was expecting something a bit similar to what had happened before. And from the moment I entered it, I was

kind of inundated with messages and people warning me things were different, it was brutal. My sector science was quite badly off, which was part of why I was made redundant. And one recruiter said it had flatlined, which wasn't a great thing to be told at the beginning. But I did notice things, you know, I just wasn't hearing back much. And when I asked at the job center about the fact that I had heard AI was more involved, they couldn't tell me much. But they directed me to the National Career Service, who had a CV writing office, during which they explained how a lot of things were changing and they actually helped me optimize my CV to get past what is called the applicant tracking system, or ATS, which apparently more and more companies are using to screen CVs before you ever see a person. Well, as you're talking about that, Valerie,

my guests in studio are nodding their heads. So let me throw it over to Judy. First, the basics here. AI, artificial intelligence. What is it doing when it comes to the recruitment process? And let's go down to brass tacks for those that haven't been in that market. Like poor Valerie. Well, perhaps we should start by actually saying what AI is, because it's so mystified, really.

I mean, they're simply computer systems that are designed to learn from data through machine learning, which involves training algorithms on large data sets. And they do lots of tasks such as understanding spoken and written language, analyzing visual data, problem solving, a whole set of tasks that look like they involve human intelligence, which is why they're called intelligent machines. But what's very important to understand, and this is my main point really, is that they're only as good these systems as the engineers who design them and the quality of data that gets fed into them. So if you think about something like a recruitment system, I mean they're based on previous data.

So for example, if you've got a software system looking for an ideal candidate for computer programming and previous candidates have been, let's say, someone like a young man with a degree from Imperial College, then that will be fed into the system and the system will come out with an image, a model, if you like, of an ideal candidate that is a young man from Imperial College. And so it will be biased against applicants who do not have that background. It will be biased in favour of those candidates, the young male candidates. So what's important to understand is that the data is based on past patterns.

And as we're living in a society, in a labour market that is marked by gender disparities, by gender inequality, I'm very worried that these systems will replicate the same gender inequalities. Oh, Valerie, what do you think when you hear that? Well, I fastened on to the first bit, the whole mysterious process. And that is definitely what I do see is that until I had that CV course, I didn't understand even the basics of how it reads a CV. But it means there's lots of misinformation and scams out there

because it is a black box for people. How many jobs have you applied for? I have lost count, but it's well over a hundred. Wow. And that's over how long a period, Valerie? So I kind of started looking end of September and then fully looking from November. Okay. So we're coming up to we'd say about a year from when you started. Do we know Judy that AI can be detrimental to women's job search? I mean we absolutely know that and I think what's very important, the important point to make is that these systems are sold and represented as being more

objective, less biased than human recruitment. I mean, the whole appeal of them is here's a system that's neutral, that isn't involving people's prejudices. And yet we know, and there are multiple examples, for example, of job ads for senior science jobs being sent to more male applicants than female applicants. I mean, there's multiple examples of this. So you know what's very important to understand is that these systems aren't objective and neutral, that they replicate the existing labour market patterns. I suppose though, let me bring you in here Lauren, one have

you heard an experience like Valerie's before and do you have any idea how to circumvent what she has come up against? Yes, yes I've experienced experienced this firsthand myself two years ago, but also, I mean, I get messages about this every day and hearing Valerie talk about applying for 100 plus roles does not surprise me. And I think there's a stat that came out recently that 50% of all hires made within the last 12 months are not working out in some capacity, 25% are not working out at all. And is that different, we know than previous? It's increasing and we know a lot of that aligns with we are reducing someone to a keyword

within a CV, we're not looking at chemistry and connection which is such a big higher. But all is not lost. There are some things, a couple of bits of advice that I can share that I think would help in that process. One of them is we know that, as Valerie said, a lot of people are optimizing their CV for the ATS. And what does that mean? Like it's a lot of jargon, right? The ATS, as you've explained, Valerie, is one of the systems that they use for trying to sift through resume CVs. Yeah, so they'll be looking for keywords that match the CV to the job listing in some capacity. And what we're also seeing is candidates putting their CVs into LLMs such as Jack GBT and kind of saying, can you read my CV to suit this job listing?

So into AI systems to try and... So what happens is employers are getting more and more CVs that just sound the same and we're losing that human connection, we're losing that personality and I think yes you might want to you might want to optimize your CV to some capacity but don't be afraid to show up as who you are, show some personality, share a real-life story of why you're applying for that role, is it you're a customer or is it that you've got a lifelong passion, don't be afraid to bring that into it. You know, recruitment is a two-way street, right, with people like Valerie who are applying.

But of course there are the employers as well. And surely they want to find the right candidate. Surely they're being stymied in a way that Valerie describes just on the other side. Yeah and I think though by not having any human element of that initial scanning you're losing out on people that AI isn't picking up on the nuance or the context or someone's personality or experience beyond just a very structured format. So I think you end up starting to hire the same kind of person. Which lots of people have been trying to push back against without getting into all the conversations about DEI, diversity and equality and inclusion which of course there'll be many conversations about as well. But back to you Judy, you're dying to jump in.

Well I was just going to say that these systems are amazing and can analyse huge amounts of data and some organisations are actually using precisely these tools to have a good look at their practices of promotion and recruitment and hiring and using them to look at what are the patterns that are there at the moment, how can we proactively do something about this in order to ensure that we don't just replicate the same people but that we have kind of new talent and there's so much discussion at the moment about bringing in you know the government's got this whole scheme for kind of radical new people with new ideas and I mean there's no way in which an automated system is going to pick up on those sort of people. So are there conversations, Judy, then about how to overcome some of these obstacles that Lauren and Valerie have

outlined? There's lots of conversations and actually within the AI community, I mean there are whole conferences now on trying to make algorithms kind of fair and meritocratic and how are we going to kind of redesign these systems, you know, to be sort of productive and useful, and as well to enrich people's work, to not think about them simply as automating jobs out of existence, but actually to think about how to augment jobs, how to free up people's times, you know, teachers and nurses, and you know, that nobody wants to do routine mechanical work, that if we can automate some aspects of jobs, we're hoping to free up time so people can interact more,

as you say, with other people. But I suppose many people would see that first troll through of CVs as quite laborious work and that AI is actually must be saving tons of times for companies. Yes, yes, there is an element of that, but if you're ultimately not, if you're coming out with the same outcome or you're not making the right hire at the end of it, then actually is it time saving in the long run? Almost 8 million UK jobs could be lost to AI, artificial intelligence. This was a report that was out last year from the Institute for Public Policy Research. It also warned that women, younger workers and those on lower wages are at most risk from automation.

When you see those headlines, what do you think? First you Lauren. My gut reaction to some of that is there is a little bit of scaremongering. Yes AI will take away some element of that but it will also create other opportunities and I don't want us to feel fearful of AI because there are you know so many positives but I also think yeah that the use of AI in the hiring process at the moment, we lose that human connection. I think there's lots of other ways that we can find work without that. And you were given the advice to Valerie to kind of stay true to herself. Judy, what do

you think? Do you have any advice for Valerie as she continues her job search? Can I just respond to the crude figures about how many jobs are going to be lost. I react very badly to those estimates. I don't think they're based on robust research at all. I think if we're thinking about the effect of these systems on women's work, we have to think about the different kinds of work women do. And that on the one hand, it is true that lots of the kinds of work that women do, administrative tasks, customer services, are very vulnerable to automation. But actually, if you look at the statistics of where there are job vacancies, endlessly

we hear about data science, the shortage of data scientists and computer programmers. But actually, if you look at the figures, it's teachers, nurses, care workers, jobs that actually are not going to be very easy to automate at all. So I think one always has to look at different kinds of work and how the technology is going to affect different kinds of work and not have these overall kind of, as you say, scaremongering predictions about how many jobs are going to be lost. Any thoughts though when it comes to Valerie and her job search of do you think systems will change anytime in the near future that might make it

easier? Well, I think as my colleague here that there's much more awareness now of bias in these systems and that employers are getting more sussed about whether these, whether on the one hand the time saving is worth it given what you're getting at the end, that these systems aren't very kind of productive in the long run. Let me go back to Valerie. So how do you feel now? Well, I think now that I've learned a bit more about how they work and what's going on, it's a bit better because the biggest problem I think is the fact it's a black box,

because it means people don't know which makes you open to every bit of, you know, scaremongering out there. And there's a lot of scams around trying to tell people their CV isn't ATS ready. So they try and get you to go to another site and pay to have someone optimize your CV. Interesting. Yeah, Lauren's nodding. Yeah. And I would say, I would say that was a waste of waste of money. And you're actually better off spending your time directly reaching out to people making connections building a network I think there's there's a lot there's a lot time is better spent on that. And networking is a really big one which we

haven't gone into because most jobs aren't advertised. No around 60% apparently don't make it to jobs boards. No I mean that's absolutely right that if you look at how people get jobs a huge number of jobs have got through personal connections and networks yeah absolutely. that if you look at how people get jobs, a huge number of jobs have got through personal connections and networks. Yeah, absolutely. Valerie, do you have a network? Do you need to expand yours? I do and I've been able to get to some interviews through it, but unfortunately it's not led

anywhere just yet. Well, listen, we wish you luck and we want to thank you for kickstarting our Listener Week as well with your idea and I will have to check back in with you. I hope it all works out. Judy wants to add a last word, go ahead. Thank you very much. I just want to say that the broader issue really is a world, you know, this world we're talking about is a very male-dominated world. The engineers we're talking about on the whole, the male engineers designing these systems and this is a much broader issue about technology, who designs technology and for whom.

And I gather that you're going to have somebody in talking about seat belts. And this is always a classic example for us that actually seat belts have been designed for the male body. And there are great studies now showing actually that this has resulted in more women dying in car crashes. So this is just another example. One shouldn't think about AI as somehow a completely new technology that isn't like the technologies we've studied for decades that has within it the values and the points

of view of the people who design them. And until women are taking their equal place in data science, in machine learning, in all these kinds of jobs, we're going to get a world that only reflects partial experiences, not everyone's experience. A call to action by Judy Wiseman there. And we also had Lauren Spearman in with her tips, thanks to all of you for, as I mentioned, kicking off Listener Week. Lots of people getting in touch actually about the seat belts, and that is what I'm moving to next, because we all have to wear them, right? But for listener Melanie Williams, she said it can be an issue.

This is what she texted the program. She says, I have a large bust. I know I'm not the only woman who has a large bust and I am forever having to adjust my seat belt to move it from across my neck where it sits because my bus stops it lying across my chest. If I were in an accident I worry I would end up choking or being strangled by my seat belt rather than protected by it. Why is there not a body shape adjustment fitting for seat belts? So is there a way to adjust a seat belt to accommodate a larger bus and how if at all has the design changed over the

years? In a moment I'm going to put those questions to motoring journalist and author of Driving Test Confidence, that's Maria McCarthy, but first let us bring in Melanie Williams who sent us that text message. Good to have you with us Melanie, so talk me through a little bit more about what happens when you're driving. Thanks Nula. It's just that you sit, you put your seatbelt on, it sits across the middle of your chest, you think, oh that's wonderful, and you start to drive, your arms move, and as soon as your arms move the seatbelt rides up over the top of your breast and suddenly it's across your

throat. And you pull it down and it goes back across your chest and then move your arms because you're driving and it goes across your throat. And it's a constant readjustment as I'm driving that and it's as it sits across my throat I'm thinking if I mean God forbid but if it were to happen I was to have an accident while that seatbelt was across my throat would it kill me? would it strangle me? would it break my neck? would it choke me? and I know I'm not the only person this happens to. I've spoken to lots of friends and just asked them do you have that same problem. Lots of

them have large busts and they say the same but actually some women who don't have large busts are telling me the same thing and it just feels like there should be a way to make a seatbelt fit women because it's not just me. I know it's not just me. I know it's not just me. No, it's definitely not because I just threw it out at the beginning of the program, as you may have heard Melanie, and already a plethora of people have got in touch

with their stories on what they're thinking about this particular issue. Also, I believe you drive a number of different cars. You work in farming. Tell me a little bit whether you found any difference in the various vehicles? None at all. My day-to-day car has a slider that adjusts the height of the seat belt coming across and I thought perhaps that's the answer. It's not. The farm truck doesn't have that. There is no answer. A camper van has a slider, but it doesn't work.

So whatever I do, whatever I'm driving, I've got this worry at the back of my mind. And you know, I hope I drive carefully and safely all the time, but accidents do happen. And I just worry that if that were to happen, how many women are being damaged by their seatbelts and I think seatbelts are wonderful and I definitely don't think we shouldn't be using them but I just think they should be safe for women to use. And I should let our listeners know because

I'm looking at you on a little video screen that you were sitting in a camper van as we chat right now so to keep the motoring theme there as well. Just a couple of the messages that came in Melanie that I wanna share with you and with Maria. Here's Lynn, she says, this is something I've definitely struggled with since my breast cancer treatment. I had a lumpectomy, meaning I am unbalanced.

The seatbelt sits just at the point of the scars. It is so uncomfortable. Please can car manufacturers design some kind of harness? Here's another one. Laura. Yes, I thought it was just me or our old car. I have a large bust and find car seat belts so uncomfortable on longer journeys. I'm constantly tugging it away from my neck. I notice backpacks for travel do take gender into consideration

when adding the straps and support padding. Are car designers doing the same? Well, let us turn to Maria McCarthy, a motoring journalist who is with us. Maria, the law was introduced making it mandatory for drivers and front seat passengers to wear a seatbelt back in 1983 but did the issue of gender disparity ever come up? No, never. In fact the idea of like general body disparity didn't. In the 60s and 70s, they had these crash test dummies, which are basically based on a man who's 5'9", 171 pounds, his name is Hybrid 3, and believe it or not, Hybrid 3 is still in action today. They haven't really

changed him. So it hasn't actually adapted for the fact that, you know, men are a bit bigger these days. It hasn't adapted for women or any other body type. And some car manufacturers are using people who are dummies who aren't hybrid 3. But actually, no, it was just this one random man and as long as he's okay, it's all good. Let's go back even one step. how are seat belts meant to protect us? Well initially you just had little lap belts across the waist but then it developed into what's called the three-point seat belt which goes across the chest and the idea is that if you're in an impact then in fact the shoulder, the ribs and the pelvis take

the impact rather than the sort of soft abdominal organs. And so it hasn't changed from that three-point design since then despite whatever way you may be autonomically? Well the three-point design actually is really good but the problem is the fact that the dummy is the same. Because what needs to happen, you know, the car industry and car safety has come on in leaps and bounds. It really has.

It's very committed. And this is why when I was researching this, I was just so surprised that of all the things they've done, the car test dummies are the same. Because if you have a range of dummies, then you could put those dummies in different situations, you can try out different types of seat belts, but that just hasn't really happened. And so now women actually in a car crash, women have fewer car accidents than men, but they are 17 percent more likely to die in one. Oh my goodness that's a terrible statistic. Do we know why?

I've been reading research on it I think it has got to do a lot with the fact that you know that lot car safety hasn't really caught up with the fact that you know women's bodies are different, things like how they react in an impact is different from that of a man. And so, yes, that's it. And their sitting position is going to be different as well. And that car safety really needs to look at that very, very seriously and very quickly as well. Well, Maria, you've been look at that very, very seriously and very quickly as well. Well, Maria, you've been doing looking into this for us. I was just wondering whether you've heard this complaint before that Melanie has brought up. Oh, so many times since I've started looking into it.

I've got quite a small bus. It has never been an issue for me, but I put it out on a social media group I'm in. And I was inundated by women saying things, you know, that just what Melanie has said, it goes up around their neck. You know, one woman tries to drive along, holding it away from her neck, which is very distracting as a driver,

apart from anything else. And of course, if she was in a crash, it wouldn't really, you know, make any effect. Some of them have tried buying these things you can get online, which are these like, you know, seat any effect. Some of them have tried buying these things you can get online, which are these like those seat belt adjusters, but I was talking to Faction Research, which is an automotive research body, and they advise against using those because they say they might feel more comfortable in the moment, but it sort of throws the whole balance out if you see it,

I mean, if you use these things you buy online. Here's another message that came in. This is from Abby. She's like, I don't believe designers think about women when they design so many products. I'm five foot two. My bust is a size 30, 32 double J to K, and it's fluctuating and even bigger than usual at the moment because I'm six months pregnant. The seatbelt in our car is uncomfortable. It's set too high, and it's hard to adjust to stay under the bump as advised by my midwife. It would be so easy to create a greater scope of adjustment. We know that seatbelts save lives. Why should my safety be compromised in the car while my husband's isn't?

I agree with every single word. I absolutely do. Is there an adjustment for pregnant women, Maria, that you've seen? I think there are adjustments that are out there again that you can buy online but they're not officially advised because you know again as I said earlier they sort of like know they tend to sort of like know to throw everything out and more research needs to be done in things like for you know the effective crashes on new pregnant women and the elderly and babies you know hybrid three

you need to go away now you know he's done 50 years of service and that's like about 40 years too many and it should have you know that we should have been having these new dummies all the time. Have the car manufacturers said anything specifically that you've seen Maria in relation to these issues? Apparently some company factors are working on it but it's not a legal requirement at the that you've seen Maria in relation to these issues? Apparently some car manufacturers are working on it but it's not a legal requirement at the moment in the EU or the USA to be doing car test crashes on anything other than the male dummy. So when the car manufacturers do it they're doing it for their own

religion which is great you know and I'm very strikingly behind that, you know, hats off to the people who are making the effort. You know, I see a real business opportunity for car manufacturers here. Here's an anonymous one that came in. I can't believe uncomfortable seat belts are only just being discussed. As a 70 year old, ample busted woman, I've spent 50 years pulling at my seatbelt while driving. It is so annoying. And let me go back to you, Melanie. What do you think? All the messages that are coming in and what you've heard from Maria? I'm so glad it's not just me. I thought perhaps I was being a bit precious about myself, but the more I talk to other women, the more I hear people who are

contacting the programme. It's amazing that we sit and take absolutely, we just allow that to happen rather than making a fuss. I think there's a real, as you say, a business opportunity. But I mean, in racing cars, they have harnesses. Well, can't we have those? Because that would go under our arms, over our shoulders. It would be, I don't know, there must be a solution. It can't be beyond the wit of, you know, even men, sorry, to fix something that clearly does not work for at least 50% of the population. Melanie Williams, thank you very much for bringing this to our attention. Causing a fuss? I say that with tongue in cheek, of course.

Maria McCarthy, who is the motoring journalist and author of Drives in Test Confidence. Thanks to all of you getting in touch 84844 if you want to keep in conversation about this or indeed my next guest. And the question is, can marriage thrive when you live half a world away from your partner? My next guest wrote to us to share her story. After 30 years of marriage, she made the bold decision to move away from the family home in Australia and move to the UK alone. 15 years later, she and husband Peter are still happily married despite

living on opposite sides of the world. She believes her later life choices reflect a freer, more modern way to look at traditional married life and one that may appeal to others. Margaret Murphy, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you, Nuala. And good morning. Great to be with you. So you wanted to tell listeners this story. Why? Well, I just had a complete transformation of my life. And 15 years ago, I was living a traditional lifestyle. I was a full-time homemaker looking after four children in a big house and garden in the suburbs of Brisbane. I was married to

Peter, a doctor, and it was a very conventional sort of set-up. Peter worked, he paid the bills while I didn't work, and so I was financially dependent on him, my job was to look after the children and the house. And it was that way for the previous 30 years. But I've gone from that situation 15 years later to now, where I am a older career woman in London, I travel the world, I've made a whole set of new lovely friends, and I live in my small

cozy flat in London alone. So I've done all of that while still staying married to Peter, and all of that on the other side of the world. And it's been a wonderful experience. So you were 57 when you took that massive leap. What did Peter think at that point when you said, I'm heading to London? And you were on good terms. I just want to make this really clear. Very good terms, yes. He gave me his blessing. Because if I could just back up a bit, the previous several years, I'd gone back to university when my own children were at university and I wanted to do some more study. And I graduated many years later with a PhD in linguistics, applied linguistics. And it was at that point that I got the idea to come and live in London.

I thought, where will my new qualifications take me? Will they lead to a job? Because I hadn't had a real full-time job up to that point. And so Peter gave me his blessing. He said it was a good idea. And you know know I earned it after all my years of study. And did you talk, and I should say that we're going to have an item on studying later in life on Wednesday on Women's Hour, but did you talk about your marriage, what was going to happen to your marriage if you were half a world away? Well it's

kind of grew organically really. I didn't really plan to stay as long as I have in London. But you know, it's sort of morphed into a different situation. But what happens is Peter comes over to visit me in London, which he really enjoys, and I go back to Brisbane in the family home for holidays as well. But how often do you see each other? Well, we see each other, I'd say about every year to 18 months. That's quite a long time.

I mean, do you still consider yourself romantic partners, intimate partners, like marriage in that sense? Well, I guess where we, you know, our marriages, we've been married, as I said, for 45 years. We've brought up four daughters together. We were a good team when we were bringing up the children. But it was at the point where when they grew up and left home, that, you know, there was an opportunity to do something different and it was at that point where it became obvious that Peter and I had different goals for that stage in our life. He was more concerned with, you know, he wanted to stay in the family home, continue working, follow the same routine, whereas I saw it as an

opportunity to do something different now. And I knew the time was now, and I didn't want to leave it until I got too old or too sick or something. I knew the time was now. So I took that challenge. With that, however, because I did read that you remain faithful to one another. I'm coming back to kind of that idea of the relationship. So there's no other, because it's a long time to be away from somebody, you know, a companion or a life buddy and lots of people have understandings like that within a marriage. But that's not you two. Well, I think we're an older married couple now. We, as I said, we sort of have different

life goals at that particular time in our lives when we're older, but it's certainly the case that I know we only see each other once every year to 18 months. There's still a lot of communication going on in between. I tell Peter everything about my exciting life in London. I tell him about my work, which is great. I tell him about my new friends, I tell him about my travel, and he loves that. It's given him a sort of another interest in life. The same as when he comes over to London, he loves that. It's given him another dimension in his life. So there's a lot of positives there that you talk about, and I can see your energy and how energized you are by it. But what are the disadvantages, would you say? Well, that's right. I don't want anyone to think it's been all plain sailing. It hasn't. I've had a very difficult few years when I first arrived in London. I arrived here on my own and I didn't

have a job. I didn't have anywhere to live, I didn't know anyone here, I didn't have any knowledge and I felt very vulnerable and afraid. And I knew I was taking a big risk because I didn't even know if I'd be able to do it and I didn't even know if I would like it. But you know, I thought, well, I'm willing to take the risk. But on a personal level, the disadvantages are for Peter that he's living, he's still living in the same family home in Brisbane, and he doesn't socialize that well on his own. And he may feel a bit lonely there. He says he misses my parties, which I used to organize. And for me, the disadvantages in a personal level

are that I've got nobody to go out to a nice restaurant with or to accompany me to a formal event, or even just to ask opinion of at nighttime about a particular problem that I've had in the day. That companion. Companion, yeah. I don't have that. And there's also another disadvantage over the years.

I've experienced from time to time, I experience a bit of tension because I'm not doing what society says I should. I'm not being a good housewife and mother and staying in Brisbane. I'm doing something else. So it's a conflict of interest, wifely duties as opposed to doing something that I want to do in later life. You're also a grandmother. Yes. And so you have grandchildren, I understand, some in Australia and some here. Yes, that's right. Since I've been in London, I have two of my daughters have relocated

to this side of the world, which has been lovely and I'd love to see them, one in London and one in the Netherlands. And the one in London has settled here permanently and she's married to John and they have two lovely boys and so I see them. So that makes up in some way from the lack of me seeing my other two grandchildren in Australia. But I could see there'd be a conflict there as well. It's interesting, a personal one, That makes up in some way from the lack of me seeing my other two grandchildren in Australia. But I could see there'd be a conflict there as well. It's interesting, a personal one, then the public one of not doing as you say what society might expect of you.

Do you think you will ever go back to Brisbane? Well, I think I will because, you know, Peter's there. And back to Peter. And back to Peter, back to the family home. As I said, I go back for holidays. I was just home for two months over Christmas, last Christmas. That's quite a long time. Yeah.

So it was lovely. And yes, I will. As we both age, there is more of a focus on me returning to Brisbane. But I'm still enjoying my life here. It's given me many rewards. There's too many here to really enumerate, but the two big ones are that A, I've got my first job, real job at the age of 60, and I've got onto the career ladder when most people are thinking of retiring.

I've also travelled the world, which is I wanted to do, and I've also got financial independence. But the two main advantages are that one is I often get wonderful feelings of achievement. When I sit on my sofa at night time with a glass of wine and I look around my cozy little flat, I've just paid all the bills in the flat and I've just done the shopping and I think, yes, I've just paid all the bills in the flat and I've just done the shopping and I think yes, I've achieved this. Do you think Margaret Murphy as a young mother could ever have imagined that this would be what you're doing in your 60s and 70s? Well no, I didn't imagine this but I'm so glad that I took this risk and there's

been huge interest in my story. Everyday people ask me about it. And so I have written a book about it. It's called A Marriage Interrupted. And I'm now at the stage of looking for a publisher. But in that book, I can show people about, yes, you can get a full-time job at the age of 60 if you want. Yes, you can live in another country and do all of these exciting things. Even a different continent. Margaret Murphy, thank you so much for coming in and chatting to us. Lovely to hear your story. Here's one that came in from Kerry. She says, my partner and I have been together

for three years and agreed from the start we would never live together. We bought houses close to one another and have housemates to help with the mortgages. We love spending time together while keeping our freedom and independence from each other. We plan to get married at some point down the line but wouldn't change this setup. It works incredibly well for both of us and feels like the strongest relationship either of us has had as a result. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch on anything that you are hearing on Listener Week. Maybe you're thinking of an idea that you'd like to share with

Listener Week, whether it's something like Margaret's or perhaps what Valerie gave us a little earlier when we talked about AI or seatbelts with Melanie. We do have a couple of slots available for your last-minute ideas but we do need to receive them as soon as possible so you can text WomansHour the usual way 84844 on social media it's at BBC WomansHour the usual way 84844 on social media. It's at BBC WomensHour or you can email us through our website. I just love finding out what it is that's in your mind that you feel like you want to get off your chest to let us know.

Well, maybe you're thinking about swimming this summer. Have you been in the water, done a few laps of the pool? Well, someone who has swum more than a few lots lately is Amy Enyon. Her mother, Jo, is an avid listener. Hello, Jo. And so she, along with Amy's partner, Will, wrote in to tell us about Amy's amazing feats, and this includes her recent swim of Loch Ness in an unofficial time of 11 hours and 15 minutes. I believe that was last Monday, Amy. Why did you do that?

So I do swimming because I love to challenge myself and I love being in the water. Why Loch Ness specifically is I was looking for a swim that would make me feel closer to my late father. He passed from bowel cancer about four years ago and he and my mum spent a lot of time up on the Caledonian Canal. I've seen all the photos of them up there. So doing that swim, being able to be up there, like be in that water, made me feel a little bit closer to him, which was lovely. I don't know whether you heard a little earlier when I put in about Loch Ness, AI came back with, while swimming in Loch Ness is possible, it's not recommended. Yes, because the water is too cold and you can get hypothermia. You can get hypothermia.

When you're doing a swim like this, I don't just train for the distance. It's not just physical swimming strength. It's not just endurance. You have to train for the distance. It's not just physical swimming strength. It's not just endurance. You have to train for colder climatisation and I've been preparing for that for over a year. Which we can understand is a physical part of it but the mental part of it is the bit that really intrigues me. So you're going across Loch Ness which people say is very dark and very cold. What's going through your mind? very dark and very cold. What's going through your mind? 101 different things. It very much depends on the stage of the swim.

If I'm in the zone, if I'm in the flow state, some people call it, I am not thinking at all. It's like an active meditation for me. It's one of the only times in my life where my mind actually quiets down. If I'm not getting into that flow state, then I might be thinking about my technique that, you know, just thinking strokes, strokes. And as you're speaking to me, you're putting your arms like in a forward crawl.

I'm doing it in a little motion. So that will help me to pass the time. If none of that's working, I can sing the sixth musical the entire way through to myself in my head. I can do about two thirds of Hamilton. We're still working on that. I got a good couple of albums I can go through. I think you could go through, yes, what would I say, a number. Considering you've also done Lac Léman in Geneva, that's 28 hours. I mean, what endurance. Yes, yeah, that was, turns out 28 hours is a really long time. What are the logistics for that? Like, how are you eating? How are you fueling yourself? How are you resting?

So when I do these long swims, I do them under a specific governing body where I don't rest. So they're not what's known as stage swims where you do a bit and take a GPS point and get out. I am doing these all in one go. No one can touch me, I can't touch land, yeah nothing. So I have a support boat that goes alongside me and that is for navigation and for my safety so that other boats can see me on the water. And on that support boat I have my wonderful crew, my mum Jo and my partner Will and then sometimes my sister and her partner. And it's quite basic really, they have a water bottle, they put a liquid feed in there, they tie it to the end of

a rope and they throw it to me in the water and I have a little bit of carbohydrate drink every 30 minutes just treading water. It's really quite something. You also, when I was looking at your Instagram, you wear a swimsuit, not a wetsuit. Yes, I prefer to swim in a swimsuit. Why? So, I mean, almost linking a bit to your earlier guess, I am, you know, for those listening, I am a larger lady. I am a larger lady. I am six foot tall. I'm a UK size 18 to 20.

The fact of the matter is, wetsuit companies do not make wetsuits my size. If I try to reach out to them, they'll tell me, oh, you can wear our men's XXL. And I'm like, I'm really sorry. I have double D's. If your men's XXL fits me, I think there's something wrong with your men's sizing. So I wear swimsuits because that's a lot more comfortable for my shoulders. That does mean that I have to work a lot more on the colder climatization, but I find it so much more comfortable in the water, so much more freeing.

I did when I was looking at this endurance and ultramarathon, which you're doing in swimming, other people are doing it running, really interesting when you look at women like this Jasmine Paris, who did the Barclay Ultramarathon in Tennessee in 2024. That was an event that some people said a woman could never complete. There's the American ultra runner Courtney Dowalter. And looking at it, women do incredibly well, the longer the distance. What are your thoughts on why that is? Yes, so we are starting to see more and more women win ultra races

and take ultra records outright. As women's participation percentages on the start line increases, we're seeing that more and more often, both in swimming and running, it might be in cycling, but I don't really follow cycling very well. We definitely see that in swimming. A lot of the longest, the furthest,

the duration records in ultra swimming are held by women. I think it's a two-part factor. There's a mental resilience in women where society is not geared towards us. What we go through in our lives is not handed to us on plates. So there is, I think, inherently within women quite an acceptance of, I've got to work for this, I've got to push at this. When you're halfway through a 28-hour swim, you know, it's five o'clock in the morning, you've already been going for 20 hours, you're in the water thinking it's okay if this is tough, because I know I can just keep going. I know I can

just work through this. This is what I've trained to do. It's not going to be easy. Nothing great is easy. I will just keep going until I get there. So a resilience and I was seeing particularly if anybody's thinking about this after 195 miles women particularly get seem to get an advantage on men. Just before I let you go anybody who's thinking about dipping their toe in the water off long-distance swimming? What would you say? Well for long-distance swimming specifically I would find a club or a community or a group near to you.

There are chapters of the Blue Tits and Mental Health Swims up and down the country or you can find Masters Swim teams near to you. Any of those groups will be able to put you in contact with an open water group nearby to you. Amy Enyon, thank you very much for coming in and to your mum, Jo and your partner Will for telling us all about you. We wish you all the best. Now the buzz from people laughing is like a drug, so says our listener Susan Warlock. At the age of 66, Susan decided to try stand-up comedy and after one gig was completely hooked

and she also wanted Woman's Hour to explore older women taken to the stage to make people laugh. So that is what we're doing. Susan gets to headline her first ever, first headline, her first event. So she's done loads of events, but this will be the first one headlining. So she's with us. And we also have the writer, performer and standup comedy teacher, Rach Sandbrooks, who guides people as they take their first steps on stage. Welcome to both of you, Susan. Tell me about jumping in with both feet, so to speak, and deciding to take to the stage. Why?

Well, in 2017, I lost my partner to cancer. I'm sorry. He was only 50... Thank you. He was only 54 and I was only 59. At that point I felt really isolated, lonely, vulnerable, lost a lot of confidence. And then I read Susan Jeffers book, Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway, which basically the premise of that is what's the worst that can happen if you try something. So I made a small bucket list,

which only had two things on it. One to take part in the triathlon in Australia and the other to try stand up, both terrifying. I did the triathlon, or a small part of it. And then I joined a six week course with the marvelous Nicola Mantelios, which ended in a showcase where family and friends came along. And how was that though? It must be, to me I have to say,

it sounds so nerve-racking and I can't imagine just getting up and hoping that people will laugh and that you don't bomb. Well I think because the course gave me a lot of confidence, showed me how to structure jokes, how to set up a joke, and the people on the course were so supportive. And the first gig was full of family and friends. And it was just a brilliant, brilliant evening, lots of laughter. And that is, it's like a drug laughter, it really is. It just heights you up and makes you feel incredible. So as you said earlier, I was is. It just hides you up and makes you feel incredible. So as you said earlier, I was hooked.

You were hooked. I've heard you describe it when I was reading about you as a complete rebirth. How beautiful is that? Oh, it is because as I say, I'd lost a lot of confidence. I was an introvert. I kept myself to myself when I had a small group of friends, but I've suddenly discovered a new tribe of people who are marvelously supportive, other comics are marvelously supportive, and I can walk into a comedy gig now on my own and know there's going to be lots of wonderful people there who say hi and we have a lovely time together. Rach, let me bring you in.

You run stand-up comedy classes called Couch to Comedy. I love that. We seem to have like a running comedy theme going here, like the 5K Couch to 5K. But can you really teach somebody to be funny? Well, I think everyone's funny unless you know and you're unlikely to do a standard comedy course if you're not enjoying laughter. So it's just that we have an assumption of what is funny and what is a comedian. I remember when I was growing up I I did want to do comedy, but the only people I really liked that made me laugh the most

were my actual females in my family, so my nan and my aunties. And they used to tell just hilarious stories or take the mickey out of each other. And I was always kind of, like, really thrown by this, like, where are the people doing this this because every time I tried to do it I'd be told oh no you can't remember all the jokes and people would quote jokes at me but that's not how everybody likes to laugh or likes to do comedy and I think we see it as this kind of very barrier situation that's terrifying. And actually, you know, I, I, I find the idea of wild swimming for 28 hours,

far more terrifying than standing on stage for five minutes and telling people a few jokes and making them laugh, which is brilliant thing to do. I think we could rank the items that we've discussed today and see which is the most terrifying. Are you seeing older people, Rach, get in touch about wanting to take part in stand-up comedy? Yes, in fact, what I was thinking about when Susan was talking about rebirth, I think this is a big thing now.

There's a lot of older women who are discovering that we don't have to just disappear. We've done a lot of work in our lives. I myself had been a parent carer for 20 years, so I couldn't take it up all the time. Because the way you learn stand up most of the time is to get up and do it. But I think that if you've got the time,

I don't see why you can't. I mean, you know, let's let everybody have a go. And you don't necessarily want to carry it on. I have a thing where I think, well, somebody might want to do it in their village hall or something, but they might not want to carry it on. That's fine. But if you do, just go for it. You just treat it like any other.

We do put it on a pedestal in some ways, I feel. Well, let me come back to you, Susan, because you were talking about your first gig and it being with family and friends. And I was like, they could be a pretty tough crowd. And I think I remember reading your daughter in particular. It wasn't, let's say, inspiring confidence in you. Is that fair? Yeah, my daughter, both my daughters came to my first gig.

And at the end, they said, Mum, we only came came to my first gig and at the end they said, Mum, we only came along to give you support. We didn't actually think you'd be that funny, but you're hilarious. It was a backhanded compliment. And then after that, you're ready to hit it. How are you feeling about the headline gig now that we have Rach here as well? Maybe if you have any questions for her as you do your first headliner. Well it'll be the first time I do a 20 minute set and now the longest I've done is about 12 to 15 minutes so it's also it's about maintaining that level

of hilarity for 20 minutes it's much harder than doing it for five as Rachel would probably attest. Yeah, and may I ask what is your... I think the trick... Sorry, go on. Sorry, Susan. What sort of humour do you do? How would you describe it? It's very self-deprecating. It comes from my life experience of being an older woman and my life story, basically. I am a storyteller. So I think you've got to write from a place of authenticity or the audience really pick up on it very quickly that you're not being authentic.

Let me throw it over to Rach just in my last minute. What are your tips moving from that 12-15 minute to the 20 minute headliner? Try and get some more new material gigs before you do it. If you can, watch other comedians. Try and go and watch some people live. I know you talked about there being a great community as well. So is there anybody you can ask to have a look at making sure you've got 20 minutes of good material? And if you're doing really well at the beginning, then your 15 minutes might actually go up to 20. So I wouldn't be too, you know, just try and be as funny as you like, enjoy yourself and really see it

as something where you're going to spend that time on stage really loving what you're doing. And see if something pops into your head about where you are. That's always quite a good way to start to connect the audience. Somebody once said to me get everybody on the bus and then drive the bus and that's quite a good way of thinking of it I think and then you'll have 20 minutes. Thank you. What about that Susan, when is it? It's on the 9th of September at the Town Wall pub in Newcastle. It's an open mic night which are great to go to anyway. I do go to a lot of open mics so yeah it's 9th of September. Okay well listen best to look with that as well. I love all these adventures that our listeners are going on and all the ideas

that they're bringing in. I want to thank Susan Warlock also Rach Sandbrooks for that conversation on women in stand-up comedy. Also need to let you know tomorrow's program, yes, Listener Week continues, we will be discussing dreams and what they reveal about us. Also a listener has asked us to look into testosterone, what does it actually do, what role does it play in helping men with paucal symptoms, we've Dr Joyce Harper here to explain and some poetry from the poet Amy Williams. See you then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Ever wish someone had sat you down when you started your job and said,

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