Woman's Hour - Listener Week: Day Five

Episode Date: August 23, 2019

Listener Trisha wonders why people seem find it odd that she and her adult son get on so well - she and her daughter don’t get the same surprised reaction when they spend time together. So why the difference? Following the death of her husband, listener Suzie Ladbrooke lost her appetite and has no pleasure in eating alone. She wants to know how other people adapt after a family loss. She is joined by nutritionist Jane Clarke. Another listener contacted us to talk about living in private rented housing as you get older. She says it’s not just millennials who are unable to buy their own home and so living in rented accommodation and house shares – but as you get older the challenges change.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and it's Friday the 23rd of August 2019. It's day five of Listener Week on Woman's Hour. I just want to remind you of one or two voices you might have missed, particularly, of course, if you've been fortunate enough to be away on holiday. This was from earlier in the week. This is Anne. She's now 70. And here she is on Woman's Hour talking about the moment she realised she had to end her 47-year marriage.

I don't think I realised quite how unhappy I was until I was away from home and I was doing something a bit different. And I realised that I was happy. And it was a feeling that I realised that I hadn't had for a very long time. And when I was back at home, I thought, no, there is happiness out there and I really need to find that feeling again. And there's only one way of doing it. Well, that was Anne from earlier in the week. And she ended up, of course, getting divorced and says life is now better for her. So if you missed Anne, you can catch up with her via

BBC Sounds. And later in the week, Gwyneth, who is 19, talked to us about street harassment. There was a point last summer where I was out with two of my friends and there was this crazy guy. He grabbed my friend's thigh and then we like shouted at him and he burst out laughing. And then the next day, I can't remember what it was that was shouted at us, but it was quite gross. And then when I went home, I put on like a long t-shirt and like trousers and I was like, I'm dressing like this for the rest of the summer because I can't, like it's just, it's too much. Well, that was Gwyneth. She was in conversation with her younger sister and her mum, and they all talked about what it was like to be a young woman, just living her life, walking along the street, doing her thing and getting what amounted some days to just about constant hassle. had a lot of support if you missed it make sure you catch up with that episode as well but everything we've talked about on the program this week has been because you wanted us to do it and today

is no exception we're talking in a moment about mothers and sons later in the program renting when you're older some of the complications and the challenges that that presents and cooking after bereavement if you've been perhaps the person who cooked for maybe four or five people every night of the week and then you find yourself preparing a meal just for yourself, that can be tough. So we'll talk about that on Woman's Hour this morning as well. First of all, Tricia is here and her son, James. Tricia, James, welcome. Good morning. Thank you very much for being here, Tricia.

I'm just going to read your email if that's all right, Tricia, James, welcome. Good morning. Thank you very much for being here, Tricia. I'm just going to read your email, if that's all right, Tricia. I would like to explore mothers' relationships with their adult sons, so often negatively stereotyped. Why can't mothers enjoy spending time with their sons in a similar way to daughters? I have both, and I equally love meeting my son for dinner, trips to the theatre, etc. I think this should be celebrated

and not considered unmanly behavior on his behalf what used to be termed as him being a mother's boy i think it's so prejudicial my son doesn't think so nor does his girlfriend but what do other people think well we're putting that one out there at bbc women's hour on social media twitter or instagram or you can email us of course whenever you like via the website um trisha that was it Well, we're putting that one out there at BBC Women's Hour on social media, Twitter or Instagram. Or you can email us, of course, whenever you like via the website. Tricia, that was it took me by surprise that email. I wasn't really expecting this to crop up. How long had you been thinking about this?

I suppose. Well, recently, I suppose I've been thinking about it on and off for quite a long time. But recently, a friend of mine was adopting a baby and it was a boy. And then she said, oh, it's a real shame because, you know, she really was really happy about adopting the baby. But then she said, you know, the thing is, I won't have the relationship you have with your daughter when you grow up. And it's so lovely. And I said, well, why do you think that? And she said, oh, well, you can do things together. And I said, oh, well, I do things with James as well. So I think it's kind of the same thing.

And she said, oh, well, he won't have the same interest as you because he's a boy and I said well not all men have the same interest not all women have the same interest not all girls like makeup and fashion you know and boys like makeup and fashion not that James does but you know so I thought that was a real shame

and then I thought you know and sort of suppose through the time that's gone on, there's been a few instances where, like, I don't know if you want to say about Edinburgh, James. What happened in Edinburgh, James? So we went to the Fringe Festival last weekend and mum and I went to a show and we got told to sit in the front row. I was like, oh, no, it's going to be some awful audience participation. Anyway, they kind of played out this scene in

which i was uh the boyfriend of the the performer and we had to like do this awkward interaction anyway before this she kept giving kind of evil stares as part of the performance and i was thinking i really really don't i really really hope they don't think that my mum is my girlfriend and they kind of bring her into it was that going through your mind as well trisha well a little bit, because it has happened before. I remember one day I was going through a very stressful time. I've done the same thing with my daughter. Sometimes we've gone away because, you know, I'm divorced,

so I brought them up on my own, all of this, all their dad. But basically, you know, we'd go away. If my daughter had a bad breakup or something, we'd go away and kind of have a nice fun time together to try and sort of bond, you know, and feel good about life life anyway James had had to sort of go through a very stressful time and I remember saying oh let's go away to this hotel in the countryside on whatever and visit some places and I remember going and this woman is horrific and this woman uh sort of took us out to the bedroom and it was like a a double bedroom or something and she and I said oh gosh you know

James is my son and she'd made this assumption you know and I think people don't normally I mean I was saying this to somebody at work the other day and they were saying oh people always made that assumption about fathers and daughters it could be a bit iffy you know but but you know well you know but people kind of never never used to say that about sons and daughters and I don't know I wonder here are people really judging the intensity of your relationship with your son because I've only known you

for half an hour but it seems a perfectly natural relationship yours actually I was not intense or anything no it's completely normal I just don't think I think you know when you have a son especially if you stay married because I think, you know, like, you know, when you when you have a son, it's almost especially if you I think probably if you stay married, because I think often you fall into that stereotype. So, you know, you talk earlier in the week about, you know, bringing up boys, but I often think, you know, whatever, you know, often the boy will go off and do sort of boyish things with the dad, like sporting type activity stereotypically.

And the woman will go off and doing sort of stereotypical things with with the daughter, you know. And I think sometimes, you know, people still think of those stereotypes even when the children go older. And I've talked to someone, you know, I said, what do you do with your dad? And she said, well, not really. What do you do with your dad, you know? And I said, do you spend much time together when you're young? And she said, all the time. She did because she was an only child.

But somehow almost when you get to adulthood, it's like boys don't spend time with their mums because it's a bit sort of unmanly. I wonder whether, yeah, you tell me what you think, James, whether perhaps if your parents are divorced, you might have a slightly different relationship with each parent, if you're fortunate, and many people do have perfectly decent relationships with both their mums and their dads after divorce. But it can be um perhaps a more

interesting relationship actually i think so so my my parents divorced when i was about 10 and i did have to go through this strange period of understanding both of them as kind of individuals rather than just mum and dad my parents yeah um and i think every adult does that whether their parents are together or not but it tends to happen a bit later in life that you understand them as kind of a three dimensional person. But when I was 10, I was thinking, OK, I'm going to spend three days with my dad now. And it's just like me and him and my sister as well. And then I go back to spend time with my mom and I'd see her. And obviously it was a slightly stressful, difficult time.

So I saw them in both quite vulnerable states. So I was kind of aware of them as kind of individuals and individuals with which I'd have to form kind of distinctive, like unique bonds, not just a pair of them. I think that's interesting. On Twitter, Julie says, I'm a mum of three grown up boys. We love going out together. Stereotypes never cross my mind. Don't we complicate things? I don't think it's even gone through their minds. OK. Luke says, I'm a mummy's boy and mind don't we complicate things i don't think it's even gone through their minds um okay luke says i'm a mummy's boy and i don't care what anyone thinks

she's always been an amazing mother and we share a lot of interests do your partners ever ask you about your relationship with your mom or do they simply take it for granted james um i think my current relationship girlfriend is absolutely fine about it I think it's been a sort of like jokes in the past in that I do have quite a close relationship with my mum and there is always there's this kind of popular myth of a mummy's boy and almost like there's a conflict between your partner and your mother and in the past girlfriends have been like oh well i think that you're too close to your mom in a kind of jokey way but i i don't know whether there was kind of underpinning of like reality to that whether there was an actual source

of tension or not i just don't know no um i think you're probably right to just question whether there was any i suppose it's a territorial thing, isn't it? I mean, I always say to, I've got daughters but I always say to them, you know, nobody will love you like I do, you don't understand, nobody and of course there is an element of truth in that. Oh no, absolutely and absolutely.

But I suppose I do think it is something different with mothers and sons. I mean, it's really positive on Twitter there, but I still feel that it's not so normal as going out with daughters. I mean, it's really celebrated, isn't it? You're talking about, you know, Prosecco, you're celebrating motherhood. But I think there's something really about celebrating the mothers and daughters. You know, you go to any sort of bottomless Prosecco lunch or something, and it's all women or, you know, and often with, you know, mothers as well. And I just think, you know, how often do you

see a sort of, you wouldn't see mothers and sons celebrated in that kind of flashy way. No, they should be. What's wrong with doing it? Yes, absolutely. Here's a good email from a listener who says, a couple of years ago I visited my 20-something son for the weekend while his wife was away on a business trip. A neighbour reported to my daughter-in-law the following week that she thought my son, very sadly, was having an affair.

She had seen us laughing together after returning from seeing a film. Oh, gosh. There's a neighbourhood neck curtain twitching. Absolutely. Jumping to completely the wrong conclusion. So you're not going to change anything, are you, Tricia? Why should you? No, no.

Oh, no, definitely not going to change anything. I just thought it was something worth thinking about and I think there should be more equality and they should be more, you know, celebrate your, you know, time with your son in society and things. Here's Julia on Twitter. My only child is my son. He's

25. He's a thespian and in a happy relationship with a lovely French fellow. We've got a fantastic relationship. We talk every day and enjoy theatre, cafe visits, etc. We argue and we laugh together. It is real and wonderfully special. That sounds incredibly positive. I was a bit troubled, actually, wouldn't be too strong a word, by your friend at the very beginning,

who is adopting a boy and seemed to have this very, very, well, very set idea of what the future might hold. You don't know, do you? No, you don't know do you no you don't know no you don't know but i think people still do make that assumption i think people there's that old adage isn't that you know you have a girl and she's with you for life you have a son until he gets married isn't that something like that uh a daughter's a daughter all of her life yes yes son until yes well i think maybe in the past there was an element of truth in that yeah maybe less so now um i think it probably is there a little bit now, but we live in a society where we think we've overcome it

and therefore it's not talked about. I mean, it's interesting coming on here and speaking about this because I hadn't really thought about it overtly before, but when Mum mentioned it to me, I thought, oh, actually, maybe I myself carry some of these prejudices. And when I see a mother and a son out in the street, I think, oh, is that a little bit weird? And I have to kind of correct myself.

And I just don't think there are many good role models in popular culture. I was thinking the other day that there's this show called Gilmore Girls, which I really like, and that's a fantastic depiction of a mother-daughter relationship and all its complexity. And I couldn't think of a male equivalent. I mean think of Psycho you think of Oedipus things like this but I jumped you because I was like what like where are the positive role models and obviously that's the kind of fear that underpins it all but well maybe there's also an element of you um Trisha underestimating yourself thinking, why would this busy young man want to spend time with dreary old me?

Which you clearly, do you think maybe you are overthinking this? No, I don't think I am overthinking it. No, I really don't think so. No, I don't. I think, no, because I think that is true. I don't think there are many, many good popular kind of, you know, examples in the media of, you know, it's like the old thing isn't it i think be fine if a daughter you talk about housing native but it'd be fine if a daughter uh stayed

at home forever but i was very aware that james thinking oh my god when he came back from university and studying he came back for a little while because he's doing a phd but it was like oh my god he's still at home and i think he felt that very demasculating because obviously i do fuss i fuss about my daughter you know breakfast in bed and all that you know when I'm treating them and stuff like that but I think you know I just feel you had a sense didn't you that it's not manly to still be at home especially because I'm a single parent yeah you know living with your mum kind of thing um Hannah says I see it as a positive thing men having good relationships with their mothers the idea of hashtag hashtag mothers boy just reinforces a negative stereotype and we see too much of the monster-in-law image played for laughs.

Yeah, I guess that is still going. I don't know. I think you two have got something brilliant and as I'm sure you have with your daughter as well. Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely. And we really work well as a threesome and yeah, so I think, yeah, we have good.

Yeah, so I suppose it's a celebration too, isn't it? Wanting to really celebrate our positive relationship and encourage other people, I think. And Sue on Twitter is a little bit jealous. I wish I had the kind of mum-son thing that you're describing. I get on so well with my daughter-in-law and their kids are great. But if I get a text from my son, it's astonishing.

I am so envious. You see, I think sometimes that it's almost as though parents occasionally believe that daughters owe them their time, but they're more grateful that their sons give them any time. Sometimes, I think. Yeah, well, that's an interesting thought. It's just a thought. I'm just throwing it in there.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I certainly don't think I feel like that. I suppose for me it emanates again out of the kind of separation. I felt a kind of, not partially a duty, I suppose, but also something that I wanted to do is to kind of cultivate relationships with both. And I felt that it was just as important to make time to see my dad and my mum individually rather than focusing on one or the other.

Well, I've been really interested to hear from you both actually it's been it's been fascinating it's setting people thinking about this we're getting a lot of tweets on this so thank you both um thank you tricia thank you and what wins your next outing where are you going next um i think maybe we're meeting tomorrow it's my sister's birthday coming up yeah just to reassure me you did get on badly with her when you're a teenager didn't you oh awful just checking get on badly with her when you were a teenager, didn't you? Oh, awful. Just checking in on that one. Thank you, James. All the best.

Now, on Monday, it's Bank Holiday Monday, of course, Tina Dehealy is here with Women's Hour. She's talking about women in construction. Currently, women make up just 16% of the UK construction workforce. And it's 2 million, the UK construction workforce. So what is being done to change that I know Tina has got some cracking voices who will be part of Bank Holiday Monday's edition of Woman's Hour. Now we're going to talk about private renting when you're a little older this is something of course that is becoming increasingly common and it was suggested by a listener called Karen we'll hear from her in

a moment also with us Polly Neate who is the CEO of Shelter welcome to you Polly and Georgie Laming of Generation Rent and Georgie you were set up to be the national voice of private renters that's right isn't it you yourself are a renter yeah and your mum is also renting a property yeah my mum's renting yeah okay um and Karen you're our listener move a property. Yeah, my mum's renting, yeah. Okay. And Karen, you're our listener. Move a little closer to the microphone. It's great to have you on the programme. Are you all right if I just read some of your email? Absolutely.

Okay, thank you. I'm writing to you because I can't believe my husband and I are alone in finding ourselves in our late 50s living in rental accommodation as a consequence of the economic downturn. For people of our generation, the generation you have on the whole, prospered as a consequence of the commodification of property. We are the forgotten outliers. Is that how you continue to see yourselves, as outliers?

Oh, very much so. Very much so. I think because our generation, as a general rule, we're the Thatcher's children, aren't we? So we were 20 years old when we first bought our property and had mortgages continuously from that point until things started to go wrong for us in our 50s. And most people of our generation are still homeowners. And as being someone that's in rental accommodation as a consequence of lots of different unfortunate circumstances

that all came together at the same time, we dropped off the housing ladder, an expression I completely hate, but it is a housing ladder. And I said, another thing I said in my email, that I sort of feel like a dirty little secret amongst the so-called middle classes because we're not talked about. So I go about life, generally speaking, keeping my circumstances to myself. And if anybody asks, I'll tell them. But you get this slight recoil. It's barely perceptible.

Do you really get that? Oh, really, really. Not amongst friends who are wonderful, but people who see you as different to them and somehow, I don't know, do they find me a bit scary? Maybe because my circumstances are quite alien to them. It's all a little bit uncertain and shaky. It is. Yes. And of course, actually, as we'll discuss, it can be. Renting can be exactly that. Do you mind just telling us a little bit more about without going into huge detail obviously it's very personal but about what went wrong

well we moved house in 20 20 2005 2005 we moved to a property that we took on as a project with self-employed people we didn't have have a pension, so like lots of people, we bought properties, renovated them, moved on. We had a very clear plan. It was a 10-year plan to renovate the property, downsize, have a low mortgage, be mortgage-free by the time we were 65. We had it all mapped out. Well, I think a lot of people had very similar thoughts, didn't they?

That's exactly right. We had a two-year fixed term, which took us to 2007. And at the end of that, we renegotiated our mortgage. That was really peak for mortgages being incredibly flexible. So self-employed people were able to self-certify, which for us felt fine because we had good levels of income that fluctuated throughout the year. But we had a mortgage repayment schedule that was absolutely manageable on every level. We fixed it for five years. 2007, five-year fix.

What could possibly go wrong? Well, Northern Rock went wrong. In 2008, everything came tumbling down. We thought we were safe because we had a fixed mortgage. But when it came to the end of the fix, we went on to a standard variable rate. We couldn't remortgage because the mortgage market had completely constricted and got rid of all the products that would have helped us. And so you had to sell at a time when... The market was flat, completely flat. And we had a forced sale, really.

Repossession was on the agenda. We couldn't make our mortgage payments. They had trebled. Right, crikey, right. So at a time when you wouldn't have expected it, your comfortable life, because I'm guessing it was a pretty comfortable one, you were put into a situation you would you weren't used to a world you didn't know much about well I I'd lived a fairly sort of itinerant lifestyle

as a child through lots of ups and downs so you know I was a fairly tough cookie but this was a really difficult time we had young adult children my husband's business had taken a bit of a clobbering because of the economic downturn. And we were just vulnerable. And we were fighting on all corners. So trying to sell a house in a flat market with quite a large mortgage was an incredibly stressful situation. But actually, we did sell it, we avoided repossession. and we left with no debt but also with no savings no pension nothing and you anticipate do you that you'll be renting for the rest of your life yes polly um i'm just looking at twitter actually which has just burst into life with people

talking about this um so you've hit on something here k Karen. You've probably heard stories very similar to Karen's over the years. Yeah, unfortunately. And the number of over 55s renting privately has increased by 74% over the last 10 years. So this is a growing issue. And it's really throwing into sharp relief the problems with instability in the private rented sector it really is very insecure as a sector for lots of reasons no fault evictions uh being one the huge define a no fault so a no fault eviction is where a landlord can basically ask you to leave at very short notice after you've been there for six months you can be asked to leave for no reason. So it's called no fault because you don't have to have missed your rent or damaged the property or anything like that.

You can just be out on your ear, basically. And for older people, that is a really intolerable level of insecurity. Plus the fact that as you get older still, what we're seeing at shelter is that when people need aids and adaptations to their home, private renting is completely unsuitable. Why? What happens? Well, because landlords don't want to make aids and adaptations. It just isn't appropriate. If you own your home or if you're in social housing, it's a completely different story. But if you're in social housing. It's a completely different story.

But if you're in private renting, older people are afraid to ask for anything or complain about anything. Karen's nodding here because they're worried that they will get a revenge, no fault eviction if they do complain or if they ask for anything to be changed in the property. All right. I mentioned Twitter, so I'm just going to read a couple of tweets out. I work with my, I know, sorry, that's a different one. Let me, I've rented my entire life, says Catherine. I'm 56 in a few days. I have never been able to afford to buy. And there are lots of people in my position. The assumption that we can all afford to buy or even want to, but that's another debate, is maddening. And from Iona, I'm in private rented accommodation. I work full-time I can't see a point when I will ever be able to retire as my housing

costs will only ever go up right Georgia is that true for a start that seems such a gloomy assessment yeah I think that when when you poll over 40s they believe that they will never be able to buy a house if they're renting now. And I think that's pretty accurate. And that their rent will just keep on going up. Yeah. So they can't stop work. Especially if, like Polly says, you have a no-fault eviction and you're going back onto the market. Rent will have gone up during the time that you have been in a different property.

So really, there's not much choice out there for renters. The best thing you can do is stay in one rented accommodation for as long as possible. And that's what I'd advise any older renter to do is to ask for the longest contract you can. How long might you get? Well, it's completely undefined. So most contracts are 12 months, but I would advise that people ask for at least two years

when they first start. Wow. I mean, when you get to, as I'm in mid, you know, 55, 12 months goes like that. Karen, do you mind me asking how long you can stay in your current place for? Well, I'm incredibly fortunate. As I said in my original email, I have a wonderful landlord with a great relationship and the chances are that I can stay there long term but that's only the chances are because I'm subject to the same regulations as everybody else and whilst you can in the beginning ask for 12, 24 months that's not the norm. The norm is an assured short-hold tenancy with a six-month period guaranteed pretty much. And after that, you're on one month's notice. And that could be for the rest of your life. This is so concerning, Polly. And it really messes with people's minds,

doesn't it? It's really, for a lot of people that we see a shelter, and obviously, that is the sharp end. But it is intolerable. I mean, the psychological pressures that it causes are intolerable. And, you know, we see people whose circumstances have perhaps changed quite suddenly, often women after a divorce or even women leaving an abusive relationship who suddenly find themselves in this position. And it is extremely insecure and difficult. And, you know, there is really only one answer to it for the long term, which is we must build social housing. It's absolutely critical that the government invests in social housing, that people on lower incomes can afford and that can provide a base for younger adults to save

so that potentially they could get on the so-called housing ladder. Because at the moment, the other issue about renting is that you can't save any money. So two-thirds of private renters... Yeah, you'll never get your deposit, will you? Yeah, two-thirds of private renters have no savings at all, right? So the thing about never getting on the home ownership ladder is absolutely right. And, you know, we do need to look at much lower rent homes, by which I mean social housing. issues meant that before we met we had to give up the houses and get into renting if we hadn't met

five years ago we'd both still be renting rooms in shared houses as property in our area is just out of our price range shared houses are soul destroying i felt humiliated when i was living in a room people looked at me like i was a failure thank god we are at least together and can now afford to rent a flat um georgie many of us in the past have lived in shared houses, bedsits. What about that? Sharing a house can be soul-destroying. I live in a shared house, so I hope my housemates aren't listening. No, I think it can be soul-destroying because of those things that we associate with home, right? Being able to put art on the walls, being able to leave your stuff in a shared living room

having a living room most hmos kind of big shared houses you'll be lucky if you do have a place to relax that isn't the bedroom but i suppose most of us perhaps have done that in our 20s yeah we're not i wouldn't be keen to do it now no absolutely not and and the the reader the listener is absolutely right. If you don't have a partner, that's probably what you're looking at, or a bedsit, studio flat situation, and they're still not cheap. I think there's a real issue, a kind of a mental health issue, with what do, especially I think older women like you saying, Polly,

going through divorce, if you don't have family that you can rely on, where do you go and I think that does put a massive pressure on families you know I'm my mum's guarantor on her flat so if anything goes wrong with my mum I have to help her but I also live in a shared house and I think that's what we're going to see with this kind of aging population of renters is it just the pressure increasing you were telling me a bit about your mom and your stepdad isn't it and they live in a part of do you mind me saying where they live yeah absolutely so they live in in lowestoft and you were just saying that they are typical they're both were in work uh but they're people who they haven't got they literally don't have the time to engage with this sort of conversation we're having now because they'll be too busy yeah but they're right they are the people who are talked about but they don't hear it because they're they're too busy in a way they're

too busy suffering yeah absolutely they both work 40 hour weeks my stepdad works in a factory my mum works in a care home there is no way that they can engage in these conversations and get advice there's no way that they can make plans and budgets and save for a new rented home at all um and i do worry about them i worry about being a guarantor for them when i'm paying something like i'm paying about 30 of my income on rent and they probably are paying about 60 of their income on rent so if any of them get ill i don't know what happened go on karen can i just say that that psychologically if you think about that as a parent having your child as your guarantor just to have a roof over your head well it's a slice

of life torturous really but i bet it's not uncommon these days i'm sure it isn't and i think the other thing that georgie mentioned earlier is the upwards only thing if you have to move on for whatever reason your landlord wants the premises back, you have no choice, no right of appeal, you have to move on. The chances of you finding comparable accommodation for an even vaguely similar price in lots of parts of the country are zero. And not only that, you have to go through such stringent checks that are often driven by algorithms that have all sorts of data checks. It's incredibly dehumanising.

So if, like us, my husband and I ended up with a ruined credit score two years before, we had a straight A situation where people hand over fist were wanting to lend us money. Yeah, I bet. Well, I can tell you for sure now, if we had to move out, we would struggle to find any landlord that could get insurance on us. We would be an uninsurable risk

because we don't tick the right boxes. And that is absolutely dehumanising for everybody. Polly? Well, just to go back to Georgie's mum and stepdad, I mean, they should be in a council house, right? Decades ago, that's where they would have been. It would have been long-term. It would have been secure.

It would have been a nice place. It would have been not a residualised, stigmatised form of accommodation as social housing has become, but something totally acceptable, normal for people who are on lowish incomes apparently sure i've just been told short tenancies have been abolished in scotland um that's right maybe that should be something that should happen in the rest of the country yes well the previous government

said they were going to abolish section 21 so essentially abolish this whole six month and then one month's notice thing and we would really urge the new government to follow through on that. They've been a bit quiet on it. We would like to urge them to follow through on that and end Section 21 and also invest in social housing. But at the moment, the national conversation is consumed by one thing and one thing only. And I guess what we're talking about today is an illustration

of what's actually going on out there, impacting on lives everywhere. It just gets forgotten at some point the government are going to have to pivot onto a domestic agenda and they're going to be faced with a desperately disunited country and housing is at the heart of that yeah it's got to be addressed really soon thank you polly and thank you georgie and perhaps we can talk more in the podcast but karen that's been brilliant thank you much. And we'll come back to you a little bit later. But so many people are sending positive thoughts to you and absolutely empathising with the fact

that you want to talk about this subject. So thank you very much for that. Thanks, Jane. Right, now this is Women's Hour. It's Listener Week. So everything we're talking about on the programme this week, throughout the week, has been suggested by you.

And our next contributor is in our studio in Bristol. And it's Susie. Susie good morning to you. Good morning Jane. I'm really glad to be able to have you on the programme because you are somebody I think who contacted us a bit of a time ago now is that right? Yes it was a while back. Okay and I've got your email here so I'm just going to read it if that's okay with you. I'm a mother of five children now all grown up and flown the nest. I always had a full-time job and a lovely husband. Family meals were very important, and however stretched for time I was,

I always seemed to be happily producing copious amounts of food for everybody. Now, sadly, my husband died last year after a long illness, and as a result, I have no pleasure in eating alone. I never cook, as cooking is a work of love for sharing and I just wonder how other people adapt. Well thank you for that because I think a lot of people I know already because I'm looking at some emails we've had on the subject people are interested in this. How have things changed for you Susie? I mean obviously in terms of the loss of your partner um I'm

thinking more about when you get home at night you go into the kitchen and you feel what exactly well absolutely no um appetite at all uh I mean I go into the kitchen my family nag me and phone me up and sort of say have you eaten today mum um but there's just no interest in it so I mean for example I will never cook myself an evening meal. I've tried to move on. I've sort of tried to attack it another way, invite friends round, and then I'm delighted to cook for them. I'm very lucky, and I have lots of people who invite me out, which is very nice.

So when I'm out and about, I enjoy my food, and that's not a problem, but I just cannot bring myself to cook for myself. I just think it's a waste of time, and I think half of it is the fact that I just have no appetite and I can go into shops I'm very lucky I live in a lovely village which has lots of lovely shops with um you know fishmonger deli that kind of thing and I will go in and I will look at the food to buy it and I actually physically makes me nauseous you recoil just can't do it absolutely requires a good word for it yeah right um well Jane Clark is here who's a nutritionist and you have a website called nourish don't you Jane um so I totally get this um I haven't been bereaved

like Susie but I understand that cooking for yourself is is a it's a very it's a different sort of cooking isn't it is and I think in this country we're particularly bad you know we've we've lost the the connection between looking after ourselves and food being a vital part of that you know in Mediterranean countries you know it could be a simple pasta that we might just be so used to just throwing together but in this country a lot of people are living on their own whether they're bereaved as sadly Susie is or they're disconnected and they just don't have friends that they could invite around and it has an enormous impact on our appetite because emotions do affect our appetite you know we're sick to the stomach. Yes. People have gone through yeah we're anxious and we don't

then have a natural instinct to say I'll eat more when actually that's when the body does need more. So do you eat so-called normally when you're with friends or is it so it's simply when you're thinking about just cooking for yourself that the problem starts? Normally with friends I don't have a problem and I have a job in that takes me out a lot and I have to eat out which is which is great because it means I'm getting the food intake but certainly on my own I just absolutely have no appetite I mean you know it'll be four o'clock in the afternoon and I'll suddenly think, oh, perhaps I should have had something to eat today. You know, it just doesn't occur to me. What does she do then, Jane?

Well, Susie, I think one of the expectations we have in this country is that we're meant to have this large evening meal. And like I think appetite is a bit like bringing up a child. If you put a large thing in front of them and say, this what I'd like you to do they'll do the opposite and the same happens with food that actually if you expect yourself to go to the table have a meal as you say you recoil but actually a lot of the people that I look after whether you've lost your way through bereavement and isolation or your body's really going through a tough health challenge is actually to play the opposite and serve something in a small ramekin or on a small plate. And actually you look at it and go, well, that's not enough to keep a mouse alive, let alone myself. And what the body goes is, oh, but I might actually need a little bit more. So I think let's look at it in a different way and serve small things. And Susie, it could

be other listeners out there, just have a main meal at lunchtime and then take the pressure off the evening. You know, when I was brought up, my mom would serve cheese on toast as an evening meal or egg on toast. Or, you know, one of my childhood favorites was something called cheese fluff. And that was when you simply just take a slice of toast, toast on one side, you break an egg, separate it out into the yolk, whisk a little bit of cheese into it, whisk the meringue and serve it as a cheese fluff on toast, pop it under the grill. And it's simple things like that. If we take the expectation off ourselves, appetite is more likely to return. Do you associate particular meals with people, perhaps with your late husband, Susie? Is that part of the problem?

Probably. I mean, interestingly enough, you say about the small meals. I mean, for example, I always have a cup of coffee and a piece of toast for breakfast. And it dawned on me this morning as I was doing it, is that we never actually had breakfast together. So therefore that hasn't changed. So that seems sort of quite normal to me. So I don't have a problem with that. But certainly lunch or an evening one, you know, after work, one would sit down and I would spend quite a bit of time doing something.

I mean, we really enjoyed food and it was special. And so I just don't do it at all. And I think also it's the eating alone. It's the sitting down, you know, eating on your own. You're not having a chat. You know, I can't try and read a book with it or you watch the television with it or something, but it's just sort of mechanical. It has no joy in it at all. So what do you do, actually? Would it be the telly or a bit of music? What do you do? Yes. Well, I sort of just fluff about. I don't really sit down and eat anything.

So I will carry on, you know, a lot of ironing gets done a lot of flat things um can I just read out some emails because we've had a lot on this um a listener called Jean says I'm a widow I have been for four years and one for whom family meals was everything I was about I no longer even think about what I'll eat either I just grab anything in the cupboard or I don't bother well Jean please don't. You must bother. Plus, when family do visit, she says, I find timing the meal no longer instinctive. I don't know. I suppose out of practice is what Jean means there. Another listener says, my husband died six years ago when my children had just turned nine and six.

The thing is, the meals just have to keep coming. My relationship with food and cooking has completely changed. I used to be a foodie and always waited for the kids to go to bed so I could eat something nice with my husband. I do sometimes cook endless chilies and spag bowls. Sometimes my stomach is churning when I cook, as I'm literally quite sick of the sight of food. You're right, Jane, this is all so emotional, isn't it? There is that fantastic book, Gut, which I recommend to everybody. I don't know if you've read it. Julia Enders, you're right Jane this is all so emotional isn't it yeah um there is that fantastic book Gut which I recommend to everybody um I don't know if you've read it Julia Enders I think is the author but um what do they say about the stomach it's the something the connection it's

our second brain our second brain that's right yeah so emotions affect the stomach but also what we eat affects our brain which is the other way that we possibly could help some people in thinking that actually if we can put a small amount then we start to feel stronger in ourselves and another one I've always loved is smoked mackerel so just get packets of smoked mackerel you can freeze them get one out just thaw or fill it mix it in with a bit of yogurt and something that has that slight smoky flavor just with some raw vegetables or actually frozen vegetables we have this misnomer in this country that frozen is bad. It's not. If you can stock the freezer up with frozen vegetables, one I do when I get back late from work is steam some spinach, peas, broad beans,

then bung them in a bowl, drizzle some olive oil over, a dollop of hummus. And sometimes actually when you serve it in a small bowl, it looks appetising because, again, it's that big plate, knife and fork. Have a hot bath or baked eggs is another one that you can do. I mean, the ready meal, they're ubiquitous, aren't they? They're actually not cheap either, we need to say. Are they a curse or can they be helpful? They can be helpful. I don't think we should curse them.

I think one of the problems we have with ready meals is that the food brigade have started shouting and saying we shouldn't have too much salt, you know, and actually salt gives our food flavour. And I think a lot of people get so disempowered and disinspired with food that actually something with a little bit of sea salt sparks the taste buds. And if we get the taste buds engaging with some flavour, that again will start to spark that little bit of, I can eat, because if food is all bland, it's boring and we all lose our way. Jane, thank you so much for helping us out today. And Susie, all the very best to you. You've really struck a chord with people. Thank you for that. Thank you very much.

And there'll be links, I'm sure, on the Woman's Hour website. Suzanne has emailed Jane, so I'll just read this. I lost my husband two years ago as well, and I felt just as your contributor did about eating alone. But now I've come to realise that cooking for love does include loving myself, and I now concentrate on really healthy eating for me, and I'm almost ready to cook for friends again. I do wish her good luck with positive vibes about being good to herself now. Yeah, thank you. That was a listener called Suzanne. I think that's very kind of you. And we did have a few people just saying, oh, Susie needs to work for charity. I mean, she's just lost her husband and, you know, give the woman a break. However, most of you,

of course, were extremely sympathetic. Jane says, my husband died nearly five years ago. We'd enjoyed our food and I cooked all the time and we'd entertained a lot during a 35-year marriage. Now I use my interest in food as an activity. When I cook for myself, I make sure I eat good quality ingredients. It doesn't have to be expensive. I ensure the food is fresh it's

presented well looks colorful and appetizing and healthy i invite friends for lunch and for suppers and tea and cake and this helps fill the gap of cooking for my husband and allows me to take pleasure in cooking for others again katherine says i really identify with this my life has been transformed by meal kit deliveries. Half my problem was summoning up the energy to think what to eat and the shopping. But having a weekly food delivery that I have to prepare myself does take all the pressure off and has made a big difference to me. Yeah, it's not the cheapest way of going about it, but I have heard other people recommend that, Catherine. And from Anne, I've lived alone for many years and i love creating

lovely meals my allotment helps as fresh veg is so inspiring also i can afford better ingredients than when i eat out um so georgie is still here and we also have karen with us as well our listener who was talking about renting when you were older um a lot of as i said during the program a lot of reaction to what you had to say karen uh myra says i divorced my husband kept the family home for a variety of reasons i've lived in three different homes with my daughters over the past three years we're about to go into our fourth it agonizes me that i cannot provide stability for them is do you understand do you understand that that? Completely. The thing that really moves me most perhaps in all of this is guilt about my children

because they are of course entering a world as young adults where the cost of housing is excruciatingly high in the city that they've called home for the last 30 years and we can't be the bank of mum and dad we're just about keeping our own heads above water and that pot of equity that really is taken for granted because of the way house prices have grown is often sitting there to be passed down to children and philosophically I think that probably needs to change and will in the coming years but most of my daughter and son's friends have parents who can help them out and we can't and I think you do feel

guilt about that even though my children are wonderful and have no sense of being hard done by at all as a mum and a dad it's bound to that's the thing that gets to me every time. I think it's important. I should say I'm not from London. I'm from Liverpool. I go there regularly. I was there last weekend. And property is a lot cheaper. Absolutely.

The south of England is just astronomical. It is. Value does exist in other places. And Catherine says, I live in Middlesbrough. There's no shortage of housing. Beautiful houses in wonderful locations. My husband and I are both graduates. We did live in Middlesbrough. There's no shortage of housing, beautiful houses in wonderful locations. My husband and I are both graduates. We did live in another part of the country,

but in our 30s with our young children, we made a conscious decision to relocate. Houses here are relatively cheap. 300,000, for example, for a beautiful detached five bedroom home. The sooner this country gets rid of the Southeast centric economy the better um what else do i want to mention so much stuff here um i'll bring you in back into

the conversation as well georgie julia says we have five children and lost out when we sold our house just before the financial crash and while the deposits on buying on buying triple overnight we were left renting and this was 11 years ago. Currently, we have spent £240,000 on rent alone, and we've been moved on six times by landlords wishing to sell. The stress has become unbearable, and sadly, my husband and I now live apart, both renting, not happy about it in any way. The sadness is, as Karen was saying, the sadness is the lack of an asset to leave to our lovely kids.

We never thought we'd end this way. It's hard to know quite what to say, apart from being sympathetic, really, Georgie. It's absolutely heartbreaking. And I think also, as someone who's 27, it doesn't paint a great picture for me. Kind of growing up, I, you know, I don't think that owning a house should be something that everyone has to do. And as an aspiration, I think having more social housing is really what we need. And I think that's the big problem that Karen's been highlighting, right?

That kind of shame, wanting to support your children, feeling like you're ostracised from maybe your friends. And that's because housing is something that we've been taught that we should be able to own later in life and that your whole life is working towards that. But if you're on low income or you've, you know, you've found hard times, the reality is you're not going to own a house. And so we need to start looking at making renting better. And I think that's the problem here, is that it's about renting being something that's better,

that's more acceptable, that the government focus on, rather than it all being about home ownership. Yeah. I mean, people always do say when we have conversations like this, well, the British are obsessed about home ownership. It's not the same on the continent of Europe. But I've always wondered who owns those properties in Europe that people rent? Somebody does and someone's making money. Is that right?

Well, it's probably true. But, you know, I honestly think home ownership is quite often a misnomer because I didn't ever own a home. I had a mortgage on a house. I didn't own anything. I was essentially paying a form of rent so I think what most of us want if you really strip it down is security of tenure and the ability to choose where you live and I completely get what the listener from Middlesbrough said yeah Middlesbrough has wonderful housing stock my husband's family are from the northeast of England. Property is much cheaper there.

But if you've made your life in the south, southeast, southwest, that's where your friends, that's where you've put roots down. To have to move everything just because of the cost of housing, renting or otherwise, just doesn't feel right. And I think a home doesn't have to be owned by you. It just needs to be somewhere that you can take ownership of. So you can paint it the colour you want. You can have a couple of pets. You have a bit of a garden. Nobody's going to complain if you put some pictures on the wall. It's that. It's that sense of

ownership of your space, even if it is technically owned by someone else. It's security of tenure. And I don't think that has to be in the form of ownership. I think the whole model's broken and it needs to be looked at. Well, I think a lot of people, judging by what I've been reading and seeing on Twitter, a lot of people are with you. This is a real conversation shift now, but I just want to do it because I can. We were reminiscing about egg in a cup. We were.

We were. Marvellous segue, Jane. Well, it was brilliant. Thank Karen. You're far too good at this. You're billed here as a normal member of the public. I'm beginning to have my doubts. I know you listen to that terrible podcast that that woman, Fee Glover, makes me do.

Don't ever, don't ever listen to it. Well, Fee Glover's very good, Jane. Have you paid much attention to her? I think she's really overrated. You could perhaps learn a thing or two. God, this is like a string of... Anyway, it's absolutely appalling. But Georgie looked really baffled

because she is a bit younger than the rest of us in the room. An egg in a cup was something that was routinely served up by your mother when you were in bed. And apparently you now give it to your kids as a hangover cure. Well, we've moved beyond me giving it to them. But it is particularly my daughter who is renowned for the quality of her hangovers. And she is listening to this on catch up, possibly nursing a hangover. Egg in a cup is her go to. I actually wouldn't do that. Jane? No, I couldn't.

My producer's bawling in my headphones. What is it? What's egg in a cup? So egg in a cup is boiled eggs mashed up with a fork in a cup. With butter. Yeah, with butter. Oh my God. No, it's really crucial that you get the yolk properly set, but not hard boiled. If you get the texture right, it's a thing of beauty. I can't think of anything worse on a hangover, to be honest. OK, so what's your hangover cure now? Oh, I think toast. I think just something nice and carby. Well, Jane's our official nutritionist. What would you advise, Jane?

It is something protein-rich, so actually the egg does have a bit of science behind it. So it could be, but also, you know, a really quick, easy supper is baked eggs. Yeah, you said baked. I like eggs. I don't like baked eggs. You don't, you don't. No, I don't, no. But just out of interest as we're on the subject,

how do you bake an egg? You're really looking at me going, oh, go on, tell me. Well, baked eggs is ramekin and just banging an egg in and into one or two eggs into a ramekin with a little bit of butter. You take it out the shell, don't you? Yeah, you do. Yes.

That's true, actually. Crack them and then you can put mushrooms, spinach, peas, sardines, something like that in. And then 10 minutes later in a warm oven, you've got a simple supper. It's the sardines you lost. I think you lost me at sardines you lost. I think you lost me at sardines. Right, so Jane, we have to ask you now. What's your hangover?

Well, I get up. I take two Nurofen before I go to bed and sorry, I shouldn't name a brand. I take a form of ibuprofen before I go to bed and then I normally get up and take more so that's brilliant right thanks for that Jane you won't be entering the medical profession anytime soon thank you

Karen very much I suppose no thank you she's a member of the public I've got to be nice and Jane thank you for your fantastic advice this morning and what I really and Georgie too of course I think what we've done what we've achieved this week is just to, I don't know, just make a connection. What people really want to hear about. And I hope, Karen, what's it been like to come in? Is it weird? It's been fabulous. And I don't say that lightly.

No, because I think as a listener, if you've been listening as long as I have and you've been through lots of presenters. And you're a whippersnapper by Jenny Murray standards, Jane, if I may say. Well, you can say it as often as I have and you've been through lots of presenters and you're a whippersnapper by Jenny Murray standards Jane if I may say well you can say it as often as you like seeing behind the scenes and the care that's shown to people that contact the program I think is really lovely that has been lovely well thank you for saying that and I hope that encourages other people because I did I really do mean this we need you to tell us what you want us to talk about because we often get people carping i understand that completely we are your program you pay for it tell us what you want us to talk about karen thank you very much thank you jane uh and tina tahili is here on monday morning with a

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