Woman's Hour - Listener Week: Day One

Episode Date: August 19, 2019

This week Woman's Hour is all yours.We've had loads of emails and tweets about what you want us to talk about this week.Today we hear from Heidi who wants us to explore a kind of ADHD which is the Inattentive type and affects girls. Heidi is joined by Dr Céline Ryckaert who explains how and why it can be hard to diagnose in young girls and women. We've also got Marilyn on. Not only is she a regular listener but she's a psychotherapist and new mum. She wants us to discuss what she calls "mummy drinking” which she believes is a problem. We've paired her up with Lucy Rocca, author and founder of Soberistas, a social network for women struggling with alcohol addiction.What's it like to divorce when you're 70? Scary or liberating? Our listener Anne tells us all about it.And how do we bring up sons to be kind and considerate men in the future, especially towards women? How do you encourage them to believe that girls and women have the same rights and opportunities as they do? And what does it really mean to bring your boys up as "feminists"? Kelly-Anne told us that she wanted us to tackle that one.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. It is Monday the 19th of August 2019. It's day one of Listener Week on Woman's Hour. Everything on the programme suggested by you and you can keep your ideas coming via our website. Today, yummy mummy drinking, bringing up boys, a particular type of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder

and how it affects girls. But we start with listener Anne Parks, who wanted to talk about divorce in later life. Her email to the programme started with a fantastic opening line. Hello, today would have been my golden wedding anniversary if I hadn't divorced my husband three years ago. So here's Anne. That's quite an opening line there, Anne. Just tell us why you decided to make what must have

been an extraordinarily difficult decision because you've been together for decades. Indeed, we had. And it's a very long time and you get very used to being together with the same person for so long but sometimes it just begins to dawn on you that it simply isn't working and the prospect of staying in that situation for the rest of your life begins to well appall you really and you realize that you've got to do something about it. OK, can I put it to you that perhaps you were not, well, you tell me, were you miserably unhappy? Were you simply dissatisfied? Did you think other people were happier than you? How would you assess it?

I don't think I realised quite how unhappy I was until I was away from home and I was doing something a bit different. And I realised that I was happy. And it was a feeling that I realised that I hadn't had for a very long time. And when I was back at home, I thought, no, there is happiness out there. And I really need to find that feeling again. And there's only one way of doing it. How long did you worry about it before you said anything to anybody? A couple of years easily. Yeah. Yeah.

And because I didn't know what I could do other than sort of in theory divorce. But how do you go about it? It seems to be easier when you're younger. When you're pushing 70, you don't quite know how to go about these things. You can look it up on the internet. And did you? Yes.

What about your best friend? Didn't you tell her? Yes, I did. Well, she knew. She knew. She knew. And yes, I did. And she was absolutely amazing.

And in fact, I couldn't have done the whole thing without her. That's for sure. Yeah, she was there every single step of the way. And your children? When they realised what was happening, one of my sons in particular was an absolute rock. And although I didn't sort of give him any gory details, he was there and he was there for practical purposes.

And he was wonderful. They were all amazing, but one of them in particular was amazing. Now, the nitty gritty, Anne, is the finance of all this, the financial situation. Did you work? Did you have a pension? I did have a pension. I did work. I was a teacher. And so I did have a teacher's pension. It wasn't enormous, but I did have it. But what I didn't have was, what was a bit of a struggle,

was the money to pay for lawyers and things, because that's the way I had to go about it. And the reaction from your wider social group, yes, you had the help of your family, yes, your best mate stood by, as you'd hoped she would. Did anybody carp or criticise? No, nobody. In fact, when people realised what was happening,

an amazing number said, well, I'm surprised you didn't do it 20 years ago. Did you now know other people who've made a similar decision or been given strength by the decision you made to perhaps change their way of life? I did encounter one person in particular who had done it just before I did. And I thought, goodness, if she can do it, then I can do it. And that really gave me a push to do it. Let's bring in Elisa Parker, who's with me in the studio. I do apologise, Seagrove. I don't know why I've called you that.

I do apologise. Elisa Seagrove, you've been divorced since the 1990s, Elisa. Yes, that's correct, yes. And what has your life been like since that? At the time, I got a sort of mad sense of freedom, but I was bringing up two children. And one of them is has been very difficult, has Asperger's. And I was a lot of my time was concentrating on that. And then I was sort of escaping. But I was I was trying to be a published writer, which I managed to do.

I escaped by going to book launches and that kind of thing. And my life has been, I suddenly realised recently, rather like what Anne said, I suddenly realised I was rather enjoying being on my own. Well, it actually isn't that easy to be on your own. So why is it for you something that does bring you enjoyment um i well for example the other day i was asked to this um thing to do with the d-day celebrations i took this old friend of mine who in some ways i could have married when i was young he's absolutely great but he wanted to leave early partly because he was ill but i suddenly realized no i don't want

to go out go back with he was already going somewhere I suddenly realised, no, I don't want to go back with him. He was already going somewhere else, home, had a medical appointment, but I don't want to do this. No, I'm longing to meet all these people I can see on the ship. It was at the HMS Belfast. No, I'm longing to talk to all these people. And I realised I wouldn't have been able to do that if I'd been part of a couple in the same way.

You can't do that kind of thing. You can't be spontaneous. Yeah, but it's also rather nice, isn't it, to arrive somewhere on the arm... I'm sounding like a much older person than I am, but on the arm of somebody. Well, it's very clever of you to say that, because as I got on, I thought, oh, God, I'm respectable.

I've got a tall, husband as you said on my arm I thought goodness I'm respectable like some of these other women I can see do you miss any of that Anne? what? being part of a couple do you not miss any of that? no I don't

and I've been thinking about that recently and I think things were spiralling downwards for quite a long time. And so sort of finally being on my own, it's a bit of a case of you don't miss what you never had or what you didn't have. And no, I don't miss it, to be honest. Like Elisa, I enjoy being on my own. I actively enjoy it. But that's because it's still a novelty for you isn't it? I've wondered about that too. It may be, yes. But I was ill in the winter and very confined for several, well most of the winter. And people helped. People came round. New friends that I have made since I moved, because I moved from one end of the county to the other. New friends came round and helped and did things. And I became better and things are wonderful. For those people listening who perhaps, and anyone who's ever been in any kind of long-term relationship, there are good weeks and bad weeks and reasonable years and really trying years and all the rest of it.

Would you say it would have been easier to stay but it's been better to leave? Would that be one way of crystallising it? I finally got to the place where I had to leave. I had to leave. It had been easier to stay, but I don't think things stay easier. They have to go, have to progress.

Things progress. They either get better or they don't stay static. In my case, things got worse. And it got to the point where I just had to. I just had to bring an end to the situation where I certainly wasn't happy. Elisa, what would you say about that? Such a long time ago. Yes, I can identify very much with that.

I was also thinking, from what you both said, that now, as older people from 60s, 70s, even 80s, there's other types of arrangements now with relationships. You know, you don't have to be, because a lot of people obviously have been on their own. There's now a lot of widows, some widowers. So you can have these sort of half relationships. They still have their own place.

I heard of a woman recently who, she'd been divorced a very long time, she'd been on her own, then she re-met someone from her past and he wanted to move in with her but she would not have it. She said they only met a few times a week and I think he wanted her to do cooking and things like that. But the latest I heard that she's ended it. So the half, it wasn't enough for him to have the half relationship, as it were, but it suited her very well until he wanted more.

Yes, OK. The fact that you are now liberated, Anne, from doing those things that perhaps some partners might have expected from you. What about that? Well, liberated is the is the word um i too have friends who um uh have what you call a half relationship elisa but why is it a half relationship you know why isn't it a relationship on its of its own well you're right it was about i shouldn't have used that phrase it can be much better than what you've had before absolutely Absolutely. Yes. Best of both worlds, perhaps.

Really interesting to talk to you both and to get your experiences. And I know this is going to encourage the listeners to tell us more about what they're experiencing, what they're going through and perhaps what they might do in the future. But it is there's no there's no sugarcoating this. It isn't easy to do what you did, Anne. And we don't. And I know you're the first to admit that we don't have your former husband's side of the story. So we'll acknowledge that as well, of course. Thank you both very much. Really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you. Here's a listener who says divorce is a three sided story, their story, your story and the truth.

Yeah, I mean, it's a reasonable point to make, of course. Thank you very much, Elisa. And thank you to Anne as well. Now, I said at the beginning that I'd been in this garden centre yesterday, and it was actually quite, I suppose, because I knew I was talking about this today, I was aware of it in particular. But there is an obsession, apparently, with novelty trinkets of all sorts surrounding women and their alcohol consumption. So it's a good time to talk to listener and psychotherapist Marilyn McKenzie. Welcome, Marilyn. Thank you.

Who's been writing, well, you wrote in because the promotion of alcohol and its connection particularly to being a mother is something that's been really getting to you. You've become a mother, we should say, relatively recently. That's correct. I became a mother about eight months ago and i knew it was happening anyway because i've worked in drug and alcohol treatment prior however i noticed how much media pushed the idea of if your child is being difficult if you're having a difficult time why not have a wine o'clock why not have a gnt and then um i would find myself going shopping and getting out of the house every day was a bit of a thing for me i had to get out of the house so i was very much a regular in

my local superstore and uh you see the same people coming in every day and they're picking up two bottles of wine three bottles of wine a couple of stuff for the kids couple of bottles of wine and it became a bit of a regular thing and i i wondered how many of these women were functional alcoholics and were actually suffering but because of the way that media pushes the idea of alcohol or alcohol drinking when things are difficult that they had normalized their drinking behavior and actually were missing out on early intervention when in actual fact they could do with some help and some support so um that's why i wrote yeah i mean there is a there's a big gulf between social drinking yes maybe a couple of nights a week and alcohol dependency isn't there there is that but it's more than just alcohol dependency it's this idea of drinking because when you're at home with a child and a

lot of these women that i noticed the father was either at work or they're on their own and uh being at home with a small child or sometimes a couple of small children sometimes wanting to escape uh the constant need and responsibility that's placed on you is you you start you sometimes just want to get 10 minutes to yourself you can't do that because you have these young people looking out you have to look after so ultimately looking for another way of escape isn't new and alcohol for some people is a very handy way of escaping it's not effective but it's handy for some and yeah and it's something to the whole prosecco o'clock business that perhaps when junior has finally gone to bed might even have gone to sleep fingers crossed that's when you can retreat into your prosecco bliss and what we've been

finding is that or i've been finding that women have been drinking earlier for longer and then by the time their partners come home or but by the time it's night time and you the children have gone to bed they're already slightly tipsy and it's a daily thing. You are a psychotherapist. I am. So you deal with people and their situations, sometimes very challenging ones. Is alcohol part of those conversations?

It's becoming more and more so. Like I said, I worked in drug and alcohol treatment, so I've always had a background in that area. So maybe you're hypersensitive. You could argue that however once I had my child because I wasn't looking for it it was just something that I'd noticed more and more seeing the same people you say hello they'd be in their yoga pants in the push chair and what have you and just all buying bottles of wine but it was daily and I was thinking if you're buying this daily, where's it all going? Well, they're keeping fit by doing yoga, arguably,

and then medicating with a bottle of Chardonnay. I mean, I understand why you might be concerned. Lucy Rocker is the author and founder of Sober Sisters. This is a social network for women struggling with alcohol addiction. Lucy, good morning to you. Hi, good morning. Now, alcohol addiction is a very, very different sort of thing to Harris mums getting together a couple of nights a week and

getting rid of a couple of bottles of white wine, isn't it? It is, yeah. I'll just say, first of all, it's soberistas, not sober sisters. Oh, apologies. No, it's okay. So, yeah, I mean, soberistas I set up precisely for the people who would not say they had an alcohol addiction, but for the people in the very big grey area in between who are drinking maybe a bottle of wine a night and who know that it's becoming a problem, but who maybe wouldn't consider going to AA or something like that because they're not quite sure they've got that far down the road yet. Does it worry you when you see all this Prosecco insignia everywhere? I mean it is it's now a brand all on its own isn't it? Yeah I mean it worries me and it annoys me in equal measures. I think it's really irresponsible. I haven't drunk for eight and a half years but

when I did used to drink I definitely sort of aligned myself with that kind of social subculture, if you like. I kind of justified my drinking by looking for those signs and reinforcements that it was okay and completely normal, funny and trivial to be drinking daily and to be, you know, sort of, that it wasn't an issue, that it was nothing to be worried about. I used that as an excuse to drink. And I know because of my own experiences and the thousands and thousands of people on Soberistas

that there's lots and lots of people who are doing exactly the same. It's the link somehow between the challenges of motherhood, and yes, it can be challenging, and the fact that you therefore deserve a drink at some point during the day, or you might need a drink, all of which, of course, serves the alcohol industry very well indeed. Yeah, definitely. And it is a kind of, I think there is a rebellion almost. It's like, you know, it's kind of women speaking up for themselves,

a feminist kind of stance that the alcohol industry have exploited, that we're strong, independent women and we're not kind of good little mums who are stuck at home doing what they're told that we're allowed to drink and let our hair down and the alcohol industry have tapped into that but of course it's not actually a very strong and independent thing to do once you cross that line and it becomes a problem it starts being very um it starts having a very negative impact on your life and affecting you in many ways which obviously i see the the the downfall of it of that all the time and and now you are sober um what how do you avoid alcohol in your life it's not it's simply in this society it's not easy to do is it well i mean i

find it i do find it easy because I made a really positive choice that alcohol, the negative consequences of drinking, were far outweighing the positives for me. And I decided that if I was going to stop drinking, I wasn't going to feel sad about that for the rest of my life. I was going to celebrate the positives, which is exactly what Soberist is about. So I don't find it difficult. I wouldn't want to go back to what my life was

when I was drinking a bottle of wine every night and I was waking up with a hangover and I was living this kind of foggy-headed existence with very low self-esteem and feeling very ashamed of the fact that I was drinking every night. It wasn't a nice feeling and I don't miss that at all. But it is everywhere, I know what you mean, and when you go out you do notice how much it's rammed down people's throats.

Well, it really is. And it's used consistently at the moment as a way of flogging stuff. Yeah. Marilyn, have you eased up on your own drinking? I know you don't actually have a problem with drinking, but or at least you... No, I don't. No, but in terms of easing up on my own drinking,

I do enjoy the odd drink. I'm not saying that I'm completely abstinent or in that way. Nor would I say I was either, by the way. Carry on. However, what I have noticed is that when things are really difficult, I can totally see how it would be an option for me to actually drop my son off, get a couple of drinks. There's so many other women who are in the same boat as I am. And having a couple of drinks with a couple of friends daily as a way of escape would be very easy to do.

There's also a snobbery about this, isn't there? There is. Working class drinking, people feel they can judge it. But giggly middle class ladies on a Friday night, not so much. It's viewed very differently, hence why I use the term yummy mummies. Because when you're a working class woman who's drinking um there is a very there's a view of it almost as though it's seen as though you have a problem i'm not going to deny that um poor housing um economic status does affect the numbers of people who drink and it's the same whether you're male or female however in terms of

yummy mummies what we have is a functional a group of functional drinkers who don't have the same financial difficulties who are able to drink far more um and nobody sees it is far more hidden they're not going to the shop every so often to get more and more drink they'll buy it in bulk well they can afford it yeah yeah and uh so and then what happens is when it comes to early intervention, it just gets missed. No one actually sees them. The partner is just as willing to cover it up because of fear of shame and stigma. So what we find is that they're not able to function outside of the drinking, but it's so well hidden and everyone colludes around it because of the stiff upper lip culture you're not seen to be vulnerable you're not seen to need help and you definitely not seen to be a woman with a problem when you've got children really interesting thank you very much indeed that's a listener and psychotherapist marilyn mckenzie thank you marilyn thanks to to lucy rocker the founder and

she's also the founder of soberistas i should say and she's an author as well she's written about alcohol and alcohol dependency. And I'm sure there are links available now on the Woman's Hour website. But there is no getting away from this. Louise on Twitter says, Prosecco, a clock tat is everywhere and it really annoys me. I'm so glad this is being addressed. So thank you for that. Everything we're talking about this week, it's Listener Week on Woman's Hour, has been suggested by the listeners.

And you can keep your ideas coming via the website throughout the course of the week. Thank you very much, Marilyn. Now, Heidi got in touch. She asked us to explore attention deficit hyperactivity disorder inattentive type, particularly its relevance to girls and mental health. Heidi, good morning to you. Good morning. If you just move a little tiny bit nearer the microphone. Now, thank you for contacting us. This is because of something your daughter, well indeed your whole family, has been through

over the last couple of years. Tell us about your daughter. Yeah, so my daughter's going to be 15 on Friday and she was just diagnosed with this presentation of ADHD a couple of months ago. After a couple of years of her really, really struggling at home, at school, we thought, well, she certainly did have anxiety and low mood, and she tried to cope with that by self-harming. And we'd organised counselling support for her. But her problems sort of continued and came to a head late last year when she just couldn't go back to school. And she ended up in hospital and was then referred to services.

And at the same time, because we were so worried about her, I took her home to my mum and my sisters in Stockport. And my sister was talking to her and by chance she had been talking to a friend whose daughter had been diagnosed in her late teens with this ADHD inattention and she just sort of said it lots of the things that she's telling me sound like this could be relevant to her so that got me thinking and I started reading about it and I shared the reading with my daughter and those people that know her well, my sisters, her godmother. And we just thought, yeah, this does sound like it could be relevant to her. But we completely missed it and it had been masked by her anxiety. She didn't particularly have school problems.

She wasn't, I don't want to interrupt, but she wasn't a naughty girl. She certainly wasn't. No, she was, as I think, as I've learned, many girls, you know, they conform. They work hard in school. They try to fit in. But she realised that she didn't quite fit in, she had some problems with sustaining friendship, she said she's a really attractive child so that's you know kind of she's got a good sense of humour so she can make friends

but she had difficulty maintaining those relationships and while she achieved at primary school, when I look back now, from the beginning of secondary school, where as a parent, you're doing less for them, because quite rightly, they want independence, and you want them to have that. She just, you know, she's been on a downward trajectory and just not achieving at all. So your concern would be that this is something that is missed in girls, that society doesn't expect it in girls. Is that it? That's right. They don't conform to the stereotype. Most of the data, my understanding, has been researched on boys and people sort of immediately think of the stereotype, even professionals,

you know, when I've raised it with school and initially at CAMHS, people are like, inattention, you know, and it does get missed. And I think, you know, in my daughter's case, because she didn't know what was happening to her, the anxiety developed. And again, we were, you know, sort of like looking at that and trying to get help with that but we weren't looking at the underlying problems so you know that treatment was never really going to be effective for her there's a lot more to this but in short she has improved after diagnosis completely yeah yeah it's like it's almost you know as if something has been lifted from her because she's now got an explanation of why, you know, why she was feeling this way and why she wasn't succeeding.

And she's also by her own choice now on medication, which should help her focus and concentrate and be able to be at school. Well, let's bring in Dr. Celine Reichardt, who's a child psychiatrist and a clinical lecturer at King's College in London. Céline, first of all, the point that this is sometimes missed in girls because society is more likely to associate it with boys. What about that? That is 100% true indeed. So the question of gender in ADHD is an interesting one, but sadly not one that we currently have many, many answers to. But we do know it tends to get missed. So what we also know is in childhood, it tends to be overrepresented in boys. So for in general population samples, meaning just people

on the street, for every two and a half boys, there would be one girl with ADHD. But then when we look at clinics, we see there actually for every four boys, there would be one girl. So somehow girls don't find their way to the clinic. And even when they're then in the clinic at clinical services, they are still quite often overlooked and quite often misdiagnosed. And the search for the right diagnosis for the discovery that it was ADHD, which might have contributed to emotional symptoms, is often a long search indeed. So why that is, is poorly understood. But there has been speculation, exactly as you say, Heidi, that it might have to do with there being a certain stereotype and that girls don't necessarily always fit that. So historically, ADHD was thought of as a childhood disorder.

And the very classic presentation would be a seven-year-old boy running around shouting, interrupting people. And even though that is definitely one of the presentations, it is not the only presentation. It's the most striking one, perhaps, for teachers and for parents. Well, I was going to say, it's the most conspicuous one, and it causes the most problems for everybody else. For everybody else. That's exactly right. Not per se for the person suffering from it. And we as mental health professionals had to learn that as well by actually speaking to children who grew up, who became more vocal, and who became young adults, who then actually told us that what they quite often struggle with isn't per se the hyperactivity,

but it is the inattention, and often also the associated emotional symptoms, the feeling of not being worth as much because you've been through this whole object course and things haven't been as easy for you. Rollercoaster moods, feeling very happy one moment and then the tiniest thing can completely switch the mood and you're tumbling down. Often feeling quite a little bit blue, maybe down in the dumps for no apparent reason. So all of these things, you know, happen quite often too. But the good news is that Heidi's daughter's diagnosis has helped Heidi's daughter. Yes. And so the prognosis is a good one, isn't it?

Exactly. So ADHD is one of these disorders which mental health professionals are actually quite happy to say that once that is done, it opens the way to quite effective treatments, which can be really life changing, and which can really make sure that the person being treated is fulfilling their full potential, which is often de-frustration of both the individual affected with ADHD as well as their surroundings, because they kind of do know something has not been quite right. And quite often we hear that people have known for a very, very long time, but they couldn't pinpoint exactly what it is.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I really feel listening to Heidi, she knew that her daughter was struggling, but it was hard for the daughter to explain how. You wanted to help, but you didn't know how. It's so difficult. I mean, I know you know this, Saloon, but it's so difficult for a parent to know how to intervene and when to. Yeah and I think in Heidi's story what I would like to highlight as well is that the emotional symptoms were a distraction not per se a conscious one but they did kind of shift the attention away maybe from underlying problems and I think if I could make

one very clear point is that the emotional symptoms should not exclude a diagnosis of ADHD. And in fact, could even trigger more and more questions from parents, from teachers. So if, sorry, just to interrupt, but if a child has anxiety, then don't assume... It's all that it's just anxiety. It's always worth exploring whether there might be more to it and whether there are maybe co-occurring inattention problems, even in the lack of what we call overt hyperactive behaviours or very striking, prominent behavioural running around features. OK, I'm so sorry to interrupt you, but I'm going to let you to carry on the conversation in the green room, maybe in the podcast a little bit later. But thank you both very much.

Of course, it's all very easy to say all this when we know on the program we have discussed cams and the issue with getting an appointment and um it can take ages we do know that before everybody emails and says well why have you said but but that's definitely an issue at the moment heidi thank you very much for talking to us thank you and celine thank you very much for coming on and there are links on the woman's website as well which are designed to help you now how to raise your sons to be good men feminist men um kelly ann kelty is a health visitor she works in north uist in the outer hebrides i talked to her earlier and here she is since my sons have been born i've got two little boys and they're five and two and since they came along i kind of thought thought to myself, well, I've become aware that, you know, the world,

our society we live in tends to favour men and white men, and they kind of do better in life, and I've got two little boys that will grow up to be men, and I thought it would be good to kind of try and raise them up to be kind and compassionate to women. And I suppose trying to raise them as feminists, I feel like I would consider myself to be a feminist. And who are their role models right now? Hopefully me and their grandmothers, their dad as well.

He's a fantastic role model to them. But from a female point of view, they're very, very lucky to be surrounded by a lot of strong women who are successfully raising children and carrying out jobs and juggling family life. So this is about how you would like your sons to conduct themselves in later life. Can you just give me an example of what you would like them to do and how you would like them to be? I would just like them to grow up to be kind and compassionate individuals who are able to conduct themselves with the skills to develop healthy relationships. And I think for them to be able to do that, they need to understand that women and men are equal and are entitled to the same opportunities

and capable of carrying out the same roles in life and achieving success. What is it that you're worried about though? Where we live, we live in a really kind of small place and we know a lot of people, I don't like to use the word control, I suppose influence. I have a lot of influence over what they're exposed to. We know the teachers at the school, we know all their friends, parents. But it's just messages that come from society about male and female roles. And I just want them to be able to kind of navigate their way through life, realising that men and women are just the same.

A lot of people will be very sympathetic and understand, but your children are so little, two and five. Little boys are just as cute and cuddly and vulnerable as little girls at this age. And most young boys like that grow up to be good men because most men most men are good men but I guess adolescence these days can be extremely challenging and we do know that young boys are going to be exposed to well pornographic material for example which might well change their thinking does that concern you? Yeah definitely I mean we do have at at the moment already age appropriate conversations with the boys um about consent safe bodies but you know like you say they're little um you know you have to you don't want to overwhelm them but you just want them to be used to kind of having these

conversations with their parents and that it's not going to be abnormal when you know we when my eldest son does get to an age where we have to sit down and talk about pornography because you don't know what he's been introduced to out with the the home environment we can try and control it as best we can but you just you never know well that is kelly ann kelty our listener in north uist in the outer hebrides with me a consultant clinical psychologist emma citron she's got a daughter and four sons. The journalist Victoria Richards is here. She's got a daughter of seven and a son who's three. And Jordan Jones, who's a volunteer at the Good Lad Initiative. Quick word on that, Jordan. What's the Good Lad Initiative? It is an amazing organisation which goes into different

educational institutions across the country. And we speak to young boys about things like pornography sexual equality um sexual violence and just really have great conversations with them okay are you one of the people who goes in puts yourself in front of these lads yeah um what sort of reaction do you get oh gosh the reactions that you'd uh expect from teenage boys but like everything they're as varied as adults are some just giggle all the way through a workshop and a discussion some are really inquisitive and use massive words that I had no idea what they were when I was their age um but yeah it's very varied okay and just because they're giggling of course doesn't mean they aren't taking their messages home exactly yeah so it's not always um a terrible thing when that happens. No, not at all. Victoria, tell us about your two children.

Presumably you raised them exactly the same. Yes, yes, exactly. And I'm very committed to giving them equal opportunities and sort of imparting them with a strong, empowered feminist message, I suppose. I've seen things that have been said to my daughter that have really made me stop and think, wow, we've got a long way to go here, for example. things that have been said to my daughter that have really made me stop and think, wow, we've got a long way to go here, for example.

You know, she was wearing a dress once that had the emblem of Star Wars on it and a shop cashier said to her, oh, but Star Wars is for boys. And, you know, her face dropped and she felt really crushed. You could see that it really sort of shook her belief in the world, really. And she was told that she perhaps shouldn't be playing football after school

because, oh, what about the after-school clubs for girls? And my son, who's now three, is seeing that because he's around her and he's hearing that sort of injustice and parroting it, actually. You know, whether it's the TV programmes he watches, something as sort of benign seemingly as Peppa Pig, where he's saying, no, that's just for boys or that's just for girls or boys can't do that. The Peppa Pig issue is that Daddy Pig is such a flunker. Yeah there's a few issues I think. Yeah okay there's probably more than a few I haven't watched you for a while I must

confess. Okay I would imagine Emma your sons are older you've got a daughter you've also got four sons who the oldest of whom is nearly 30 I think. Yeah. Would you say it was harder to bring up sons now than when you first started doing it? I think there was less interaction with social media for the older children. Let's be clear about this. There was less pornography accessible on phones in school playgrounds. Yes, absolutely right. I think they were under less pressures. There wasn't Instagram.

They didn't join Facebook until they were 14 or even 15. And even then, they didn't really care about it very much. So I think this opens up the whole social media debate too because of the accessibility of all of these forums that we're talking about, like porn, to our youngsters and how that may or may not influence their attitudes. So what do you do as a parent or carer? I think you try to have good discussions with your youngsters.

Yes, I mean, you can try. How do you do that? Yes. I think if any, as Victoria was saying, any stereotypes and prejudices leak out, like even from a young child saying, aren't the boys are stronger than the girls, they climb the climbing frames, and they're the ones that are so good at everything, you can start to present other points of view where you just may not be noticing that actually, you know, that the girls are doing X or Y, or actually, they're very good at maths or whatever it is. So I think chipping away at stereotypes from a very young age is important. Chipping away at power stereotypes, you know, the perhaps implicit perceptions that, you know, boys have

the power and the authority and can rule over the girls in some way. I think these are discussions we can start to have very early. okay i mean jordan do you i know that you grew up in a household with a with a mom who was very much immersed in feminist feminist politics wasn't she and definitely um but you still by your own admission didn't always treat women in the right way no not at all um do you want me to elaborate on that bit if you don't mind um we're only live on radio i I could look at you all day, George, but that's not going to get to you anyway. Carry on.

No, definitely. I think myself included, you know, I'm not removed from the society that I operate in. How we interact with men and women, speaking from a heteronormative or heterosexual point of view, growing up, it was that thing that happens in life. Things like kiss chase, things like, you know, you punch the girl in her arm and you only do it because you like them.

Things that we kind of subconsciously are constantly told and reinforced that this is the way to behave and it's acceptable. Boys will be boys, things like that. But having a mother like I had, that was never, and still isn't, toleratedated constantly being picked up on but more importantly educating me on what laid underneath that okay what I mean Victoria from your perspective your little boy is is three I mean he's tight he's done no harm to anyone nor will he ever I'm sure do you worry more about him than your daughter or do you worry more about the influences he's going to be susceptible to i mean i think misogyny shackles boys as much as it shackles girls right and he's going to be

facing issues of toxic masculinity he's going to be facing pressures to be a man whatever that means and what that seems to mean in a sort of traditional sense is to not express your emotions not express your feelings well i know that women in a certain of traditional sense, is to not express your emotions, not express your feelings, trap women in a certain way. That was one of Kellyanne's worries. She wrote in her email, my biggest worry is the message that boys are conditioned not to express their emotions. Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, you know, I feel that it's really simple as parents that we can do that, or as a society that we can do that by encouraging boys to express their emotions. And also modelling, modelling is really, really important within the home home so we've got to look at the

traditional um stereotypical kind of activities that parents do in two-parent families if if those if if it's a sort of heteronormative setup if you've got a mother and a father for example then you know is the mother doing the traditionally female activities of cooking and cleaning and child care and you know isn't it really really simple to see dad cooking dinner one night and mum washing the car or mum taking the bins out you know stuff like that that kids will a lot of kids will be seeing every day um that can show them that they don't have to conform to stereotype emma you've got um four sons and they say, yes, I'm a feminist? No, I don't think they would. I think they'd feel quite alienated by that term.

Who's alienated them? I think it's got very negative connotations in society. It's seen as quite political, quite angry and quite anti-men, actually. And I think they don't feel like it's their safe space. They don't feel like it's their battle. No. And they don't need to be a part of it. But even they feel threatened by it, I think, in some ways. You look quite upset by that, Victoria. I was looking shocked. I think

I come up against this a lot, even amongst my female friends who sometimes say, oh, I'm not sure if I'm a feminist. And I genuinely think it's because people don't understand truly what it means um and I I give my friends this really simple acronym which is PEPS which is basically I always say feminists believe in political economic personal and social equality for men and women and if we take that as our springboard, then I don't understand why that could be seen as a negative term or bastardised. OK, Jordan, I think you'd say you were, you do embrace the feminist label now, but you might have fought it in the past.

I would say so. I definitely would say that I identified as a feminist. But after speaking to other feminists, I thought it more appropriate to identify as a feminist but after speaking to other feminists I thought it more appropriate to identify as a feminist ally interestingly when someone told me you know you're a man it's not appropriate to say you're a feminist I immediately got my back up okay well yeah I wouldn't um why did they say that well I think that's I think that's more for for them to that that's for them to articulate and to kind of think out. But what I would focus on is more, I got my back up because someone said I couldn't do something. And then straight away I went into patriarchal man.

No, I want to be a feminist. You can't tell me I can't. And so I then recreated the exact problem that has feminism exist in the first place. All right. I want to get some rock solid advice from all three of you in a minute. But first of all, let's bring in some listeners Rupert says, a simple piece of advice cuddles and love from dad

amazing how it changes things no one would disagree with that would they? Tamara says, and this is a reasonable point, maybe a man should come on the programme one day far in the future and discuss how to raise our daughters to be good women Right, well okay, go on and discuss how to raise our daughters to be good women.

Right, well, OK. I was going to say, that just seems like another branch of the what about men argument. As well as men telling women how to be women. Catherine emails, ensure that their father is a feminist and is very present in their lives. Elaine, an email, I've got a son in his 50s. He hasn't had a father role model in his life since he was 7 he lived his childhood through the 70s and the 80s

when the women's movement was at its height and was exposed to the principles and the practice of feminism, he's married with a family and devoted to doing his best which he achieves, however recently he has been expressing his feeling of being at a loss as far as being surrounded by strong women

and he feels he doesn't know where to fit in, so I suppose expressing his feeling of being at a loss as far as being surrounded by strong women. And he feels he doesn't know where to fit in. So I suppose, you know, to be fair, it's not when we've never suggested on that suggested on this programme that only women face challenges. I mean, that's clearly not the case. And Elaine's hinting at a difficult situation there for her son. Sue says it's not just about presenting a positive female role model and enabling girls. It's as much about presenting positive male role models and giving a variety of play materials to girls and boys. That

means dolls for boys, tractors for girls and so, so much more. And from my raid, I think we need to equip boys practically cooking, cleaning, babysitting etc. Sounds weird but would you want your son to be your partner when they grow up? Yeah, I know what you mean. It sounds weird, but you're making a very good point.

So, yeah, let's put that one on you then, Emma. You've had the most experience with four sons. What did you get right? I think I tried to make them very emotionally astute. I read them stories when they were very little that touched on emotions. We talked about a variety of emotions. I think they picked up a lot because I'm a psychologist with a practice at home. So, you know, without names and confidentially,

I would sometimes talk to them about some of my clients and some of the issues they presented with in an age appropriate way. So I sort of opened their minds to things that they may not be coming across necessarily in the wider world of their experience. So I tried to, to sort of connect with them and make them aware of, of how other people feel. And I think that's really important. Victoria? I think it's a really fundamental point is to provide them with a range of options, as we've talked about,

not supplying them with cars or diggers or tractors, but offering them dolls and buggies and things that people would traditionally give to little girls and i brought along a photo actually of my son of what he chose to wear he's only three and for his nursery graduation photo very nice he's wearing a big pink and white checked bow headband and that's not me forcing that on him i mean it's available because he's got an older sister so perhaps that is one that one thing but um it's not saying you have to wear this it's available because he's got an older sister, so perhaps that is one thing. But it's not saying you have to wear this. It's not saying you can't wear this.

It's saying you're totally free to wear this if you want to, even from this age, I think it's really important. I think there are battles that aren't worth fighting. And speaking as the proud mother of somebody who dressed as Postman Pat for many, many years and had her own sack and would routinely attend formal events dressed as a Cumbrian postman.

But she wouldn't do it now. By the way, if she did want to. That's up to her. She could. Okay, Jordan, over to you. I think as parents, carers, guardians, as well as keeping our children safe and alive, we have to intellectually and emotionally develop them.

And so for me, what I do with my kids is every moment is a teaching moment, whether we're watching Disney or Lion King or outside or on a bus, every interaction, I use that interaction to inform my kids of something and then let them figure out what it is. I'll say to Mia, it's quite interesting and then let them figure out what it is. I'll say to Mia, it's quite interesting. How old is she?

Mia's eight. It's quite interesting that that man interrupted that woman when she was speaking and kind of said the exact same thing that she was thinking. What do you think that's about? And then she'll say in her eight-year-old brain, that's quite weird. He's just like explaining it again. He didn't have to explain it.

And so she now has the definition of mansplaining without me forcing it on her. Yeah. So I think that's what I do practically. That's what I do all the time. But do you talk to your son differently? Well, Jelani is nearly two. Okay.

But at the end, like we were saying earlier, Victoria, it starts from birth. From when baby is in mummy, the gender stereotypes and everything begins. So with him, it is very much a case of the exact same thing. Wear what you want, do what you want. As long as it's safe and as long as it's appropriate, then yeah, I'd treat him the exact same way. But he's got to find his place with his peers. 100%.

So difficult. It is difficult. And what I'd say is, you know, you choose the crowd. Show me your friends, I'll show you who you are. You choose the crowd that you think suits you or fits you, hopefully. And so I hope that with the village of people that are raising him, he won't be someone that just succumbs to peer pressure and goes along with something just because it's seen as cool or okay just because it's what he believes in it's hard it is hard

but it's a daily we were speaking about this earlier it's a daily struggle it's a daily thing constantly checking privilege constantly checking patriarchy and and other men calling it out to each other and holding each other to account that's essential yeah that's that is as important as with the Me Too movement, right? Completely. So people, or lads in the pub, you know, this so-called lads culture, men calling each other out for saying that is inappropriate, that is sexist, that is... You're allowed to express your emotions.

Definitely. We were talking earlier about reading to kids. I think there was a study done by the Fawcett Society that showed that books that challenge gender norms can literally undo children's perceptions of gender stereotyping. And there is a wealth of very interesting literature out there. There's the kind of, you know, goodnight stories for rebel girls, stories for boys who dare to be different, fantastically great women in sport and science. And I brought along a book, a picture book that

I was showing Jordan earlier, which is called Julian is a Mermaid by and science. And I brought along a book, a picture book that I was showing Jordan earlier, which is called Julian is a Mermaid by Jessica Love. And it's this beautiful, very simple story. It's not preachy. It's about a little boy who sees women dressed up as mermaids and thinks they're really beautiful and wants to emulate that with like his grandma's netted curtain. And his grandma is, you know, gives everything, gives him props,

gives him a pearl necklace that he can put on. And he swans around looking like this beautiful mermaid. And it's really simple. And it's just saying, yeah, you can experiment. You can be who you want to be. No judgment, just support and love. And Emma, did any of your sons, would you have allowed your sons to dress like Victoria's little boy? Yes.

You wouldn't have challenged that? I mean, I'm very reluctant to speak for my boys because they're all adults now, so I'm aware of that. But certainly one of them would use the pram and the dolls and dress up way into late primary. And my girl was not a stereotypical girl in the ways that you might expect. She was the old-fashioned...

Because guess what we're all individuals yes exactly exactly so um it would have been absolutely fine it was absolutely fine and they have their own attitudes and outlooks and they're egalitarians that's i think what they would call themselves lots of syllables in that um would they really call themselves egalitarians i think i think they would if the concept was explained like Victoria did. That's a bit unfair. Yes, the concept was explained. I think they would.

I think they would. Sorry, I was just going to add as well that I think we're talking about things that can be done from really, really early on in life. And it's so true, you know, through stories, through books, but also issues, really big issues like consent. You know, you empower kids to say you don't have to kiss your ageing relative at Christmas. That is from the word go, that is giving them the power to say no or bodily autonomy. Right. So that can start really early, too. I think it's, you know, we just need to embed these systems that we're all trying to battle against as early as we can. Great. Thank you all very much.

Really appreciate you sticking around for the podcast as well today. Thank you, Jordan. Thank you, Victoria. Thank you, Emma. And we'll be back tomorrow. All the ideas this week are from you, and we would welcome more ideas. It's never too late. Email the programme via the website. I'm Sheila Dillon, and before you go, I wanted to tell you about the Food Programme podcast, The Place for Hungry Minds. In our latest

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