Woman's Hour - Listener Week: Day Two

Episode Date: August 20, 2019

Catherine wrote to us about the wellness industry. She asks whether its relentless focus on improvement whether through diet, exercise or psychological tools such as mindfulness contributes to yet more pressure, particularly for women, to live the perfect life.At the age of 59 Annie is going back to university. She wants to talk about what she should wear. She's frightened of sticking out like a sore thumb amongst the other students on the course. A personal stylist and a fashion editor are on hand for advice.Listener Sarah wrote to us about her three daughters and the fact that they often receive unwanted attention on the street from teenage boys and men. Has it got worse since she was their age? Listener Joy is single and she's not alone. In the latest UK census 34 per cent of the population in England and Wales describe themselves as single. Yet swathes of society still seem to hold singletons and particularly women in judgement. We explore why.Presenter: Jane Garvey Interviewed guest: Catherine Venables Interviewed guest: Pixie Turner Interviewed guest: Natasha Devon Interviewed guest: Joy Interviewed guest: Bibi Lynch Interviewed guest: Emily Hill Interviewed guest: Sarah Interviewed guest: Betty Interviewed guest: Gwyneth Interviewed guest: Annie Dehaney-Steven Interviewed guest: Alice Wilby Interviewed guest: Felicity Kay Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. It's Tuesday the 20th of August 2019. It is day two of Listener Week on Woman's Hour and so everything we're talking about on the programme throughout the week has been suggested by you. There's more on the delights of being a single woman on the programme today because so many of you want to talk about that.

We'll discuss dressing for university as a mature student and ask, are you heartily sick of the wellness industry? Did you get the little gag in there? Because I was really proud of that. I came up with that this morning at half eight and I was actually, I felt rather smug that I thought of something so witty and illuminating. And I'm going to pat myself on the back for that,

even if no one else is. First of all, this morning, we talked, this is in the light of the conversation yesterday about bringing up boys to be respectful and considerate. This morning why do so many young women and not just necessarily that young get unwanted attention from men and boys when they just walk down the street? A listener called Sarah emailed to say my daughters are 27, 19 and 13 and they're constantly frustrated by comments and inappropriate behaviour from some boys and men.

Please talk about this. It needs its profile raising. As parents, we find it so frustrating as it happens when we're not there. So I talked to Sarah and two of her daughters, Betty, who's just 13, and Gwyneth, who's 19. And it was Gwyneth we heard from first. It's quite like a persistent thing. And I've noticed this summer, especially, this happens like constantly, from like staring to comments to sometimes having to engage in a

conversation because you're not quite sure if you then ignore that person, they might not like that. And then that's a worse situation to be in than to ignore them kind of thing. When did it start? Definitely secondary school, beginning of secondary school, like on public transport. Is it boys or is it men? It's both, but it's so much more men. Yeah, not a lot of boys, but usually they're now younger than me. What do they do?

Them on their bikes and shouting, like, hey, darling, or, like, I don't know, I don't know. But they're, what, about 4ft10? But recently I did shout back and they find it so funny, so I'm not going to do it again, and I don't want to be laughed at either. Is it stopping you going out? No, but there was a point last summer where I was out with two of my friends

and there was this crazy guy. He grabbed my friend's thigh and then we, like, shouted at him and he burst out laughing. He was definitely on drugs or was just not all right. And then the next day, it was a similar... It felt quite extreme. I can't remember what it was that was shouted at us, but it was quite, like, gross.

And then when I went home, I put on, like, a long T-shirt and, like, trousers and I was like, I'm dressing like this for the rest of the summer because I can't like it's just it's too much and it's is it possible for you to go out anywhere without getting some kind of bother yes but it's rare especially in the summer but you're telling me you have to make a conscious decision about what what you wear before you leave the house yeah and kind of go like is it worth it Betty you're telling me you have to make a conscious decision about what you wear before you leave the house. Yeah, and kind of go, like, is it worth it? Betty, you're only 13, but listening to this,

what does it make you think? Well, it's like, I'm not surprised by it anymore, but I just think it's been normalised a bit. What about you and your friends? When you go out, have you started to get attention that you don't want? Yeah, but it's not, like, a lot. It's just, like, sometimes I'll be walking. Like, I walk past this guy and I could see him, like, staring at me.

I looked back at him and, like, he kept staring at me. And I thought, like, when I walked past him, he was going to move, but he didn't. And he stayed there. Like, so his face was, was like really close to mine and I could tell that he was doing it so he could try and intimidate me and I think that's the first thing I noticed on the face of it Sarah this is this is deeply depressing how do you help oh it's really it's really annoying because you feel so helpless so I mean we we talk about it a lot about how you're feeling and things that you can do I worry about saying you should be confrontational because you just don't know what reaction you're going to get so we do talk about not not confronting only because I don't know who's got a knife or who's going to really hurt you.

But it's just really frustrating. It's really frustrating. But I think talking about it and talking to your friends about it. But I just worry that, particularly when Gwyneth was talking about very young boys doing it, who are they looking at? Are they looking at their brothers online at things? Where are they being told this is acceptable? Did you think it would be like this for your daughters?

No, no, I don't think I did. I think I first noticed it when our oldest, Morgan, was maybe about 12. And it's like Gwyneth said, on public transport, you start to notice. And I think as parents, we notice before you notice because you don't know it's kind of out there. I think, I mean, I've got teenage daughters. I can't pretend I haven't had similar concerns. I've also had the conversations when they come down the stairs wearing something and you have to confront the world. And you think to yourself, is it OK for her to leave the house like that?

In my feminist mind, she's free to dress however she wants exactly however she's in the real world and maybe i should say something to her have you been there as well definitely and i think i have i think i said to you recently when you you were showing me something you were wearing gwyneth do you remember me looking at you i think that's lovely you look gorgeous i always you always tell me i look really nice lovely. But then I've got that other one that's going, but what about the guys on the road? You've never told me not to wear. No, but occasionally you will say, like, be careful, be aware.

Yeah. I do think, though, there are thinking of things that you can do about it. A couple of days ago, Gwyneth told me about walking past a particular pizza place and every time she goes past there, the guys, if they're standing outside, speak in quite a gross way.

So we then disagreed about what should happen. Do you remember what you said? I said if something happens, if you walk past a group of people who, you know, speak to you, make you feel uncomfortable, whatever, and you can see that they're attached to an establishment, and I guess you can do that with school kids to an establishment and i guess you can do that

with school kids if that happens i think you should complain directly to the establishment yeah but you said they should get fired oh yeah what would be more helpful is if you go in i'd be happy to go in there with you and speak to the manager and say you have people working for you who are speaking in this way yeah so you give that manager the chance for her or him to do something first can i ask you sarah where did you grow up um bedfordshire so when you were 90 when you were gwyneth sage you were living in what rural bedfordshire or i had just moved here when i was 19 and what happened to you then in terms of the amount of harassment and attention i just don't think it was i think there was a lot of attention, but it definitely wasn't as, what's the word? Overt. Yeah. And the inappropriateness,

the detail, I think, things that some men and boys say. So for all the progress that's been made, certainly in my life, and I'm sure in yours, in any number of ways, we've actually, as it happens, both got daughters who are out in the world and it's scarier for them than it was for us. I definitely would agree with that, yeah, which is ridiculous when you look at all the progress we've made in so many areas. I mean, still lots to do

and yet you still can't go out your front door and be not even respected, just ignored, would be nice. Yeah, honestly, I feel, like, observed and, like, considered. Considered. I really remember you using that word. That really stuck in my mind to say men are considering me. How dare you consider my daughter? Is this a new phenomenon, honestly? I think so. I think they see more of it,

modelled either in songs, things online. Also pornography I think has played a really big part in this, how easily available it is. So you do get some boys growing up with this sort of imaginary idea of what a relationship is. Of course you can't then relate to an actual real person. Well that was Sarah and her daughters Gwyneth and Betty in conversation with me yesterday. It is depressing. I suppose there'll be many people listening who say, well, same old, same old. Tell me something I didn't know. Has it got worse, I suppose, is the question I'm punting out to you today.

Has it got worse for our daughters and for our young people just walking the streets of Britain? Do they get more hassle than 30 years ago? And if so, what has changed? So contact the programme. If you feel strongly about this one way or the other, and you might think the whole thing has been exaggerated, at BBC Women's Hour on social media. But our thanks to Sarah and her daughters for being willing to come on the program now um Catherine Venables is here good morning to you Catherine hello um good to have you with us

you are you work as a teaching assistant you're in your 50s and you have well it's not a problem but you've got a question about the wellness industry haven't you yes yeah I noticed on social media that I was seeing a lot of strategies and therapies designed really to help us with our mental well-being. And everything from yoga, sound baths, breathing classes, horse therapy, and even things like baking and cleaning, which obviously we all either love or loathe but does most do it yeah yeah um and i'm beginning to wonder um do we at what point do these therapies tip into actually being harmful for our mental health is it another thing that we have to do in order to keep well mentally alongside we've got to look good we've got to have our house looking good we've also got to do do these these things all right so well your your what

concern would be this is one more thing to tick off the list yes okay you're a very you're a grounded woman with it with a proper job out there in the real world so i don't imagine you've got an enormous amount of time to to ponder your state of wellness have you not not really no I think um I I do do things that I I really love and really enjoy I sing in a choir once a week we're shocking and that's I think part of the reason why it's so good for us yeah um I belong to a group we go um walking every week we always end up in the pub which again is great most of us are driving so it's only going to be a lime and soda good but it's just that connection with other people um and that exercise out in the in the outdoors that i think really helps us so the wellness industry um how would you define that what is it yes it's a bit nebulous isn't it yeah i suppose um on um things like you know as i say those those different types of therapies

but also going into podcasts and instagram um those people that are really promoting taking care of your mental well-being and i'm not at all saying it's a bad idea. I think you, you know, you should be, but at what point do you, does it become unbalanced? At what point is it actually causing you more stress and anxiety? You know, I was talking to somebody at the weekend and she said she has, suffers from anxiety on and off. And she listens to a lot of podcasts and she said some days when she's feeling good they're really inspirational and they really help her but if she's having a bad day actually it can make her think oh i'm not doing enough and the anxiety then becomes her fault

oh if we become unwell i don't want to use the word ill because I think that's a whole, you know that's a different part of the spectrum isn't it at what point do we start blaming ourselves for our mental health rather than the situation that we're in. Let's bring in Pixie Turner who's a registered associate nutritionist and food

blogger. Pixie good morning to you. Hello. And also here Natasha Devon who's a body image and mental health campaigner. Hi Natasha. So let's startger. Pixie, good morning to you. Hello. And also here Natasha Devon, who's a body image and mental health campaigner. Hi, Natasha. So let's start then with Pixie, the wellness industry. Were you ever a part of it? Are you a part of it now? I was once a part of the wellness industry. Yes. And I came into it for all the wrong reasons because I was trying to desperately improve my health. And I found all these very impressive beautiful shiny bloggers and influencers online who were selling these messages that were very convincing and very simple. I'm glad you used the word selling because these people this is a business they are making money. Absolutely I always

get told oh but they have good intentions but behind all of that. Good intentions fill their bank balance. Yes it's still a business at the heart of it. And in the end, a lot of what the wellness industry with a capital W is now about is very much about putting a price tag on health and pricing people out of these things that are good for us and that we maybe should or could be doing for our health. But actually, we now struggle to do because of the extra financial burden that it sometimes places on us. Yeah, you are now, you thought again about all this, didn't you? And you've reinvented yourself. Would that be fair? Yes, I am definitely not part of the wellness industry anymore, because I don't want to be part of something that is actually, I believe, causing a lot of harm inadvertently and is prioritising, putting a huge focus on physical health, actually at the expense of mental health a lot of the time.

So you think Catherine's on to something? Oh, absolutely. Yes. In particular, the way that all of this is marketed towards women as being very empowering. And I don't believe it's empowering for women to be sold misinformation. I think it's much more empowering for women to be making decisions about our health based on accurate information. What is the most dangerous thing you've heard about or something that's been said to you recently in terms of wellness and perhaps the impact of something profoundly dodgy on social media? A good recent example would be something that's come over from America which is celery juice and celery juice is now being painted on Instagram in particular and in Hollywood as being

the cure for absolutely everything. It's supposed to be able to cure psoriasis, anxiety. There's even some reports online of people claiming that it cures cancer. Now, this is obviously incredibly problematic because not only is that technically illegal, it's also incredibly harmful because a lot of these messages online are encouraging people away from conventional medicine that works and encouraging them towards these incredibly simple, exciting, but unproven and in the end harmful methods like celery juice, which absolutely, for the record, doesn't really cure anything. No, it's probably also really horrible. It's not the most delicious of things. It'll make you a little bit hydrated, but that's pretty much the extent of it. Well, anything will make you reasonably hydrated. I mean, we only have to look at the stuff that was obviously doing the

rounds yesterday, rightly about MMR and measles. And people, unfortunately, do take on these. They are rubbish, these messages, but people do absorb them. Natasha, what about mental health and the impact of, well, Catherine talked specifically about these podcasts that emphasise, well, I've never listened to one, but you tell tell me have you listened to any of them well i the first of all i want to say my perspective as a campaigner this is a motif that you see all the time you get activists who work really hard and usually free of charge to implement structural change and then brands see that they see it making noise and they think i'll have a bit of that and as somebody who's been very vocal in body image you know the body positivity movement in particular was started by fat women of color. And they were saying, I don't want to be considered attractive.

I just don't want to be discriminated against because of the color of my skin and my body shape. And yet now it's, you know, anybody who has a roll of fat on them or a wrinkle is trying to get a piece of the body positivity action. And that's not why the movement was created. So I understand the frustration. And with mental health, a lot of the time we need to look at structural changes that will help people rather than this narrative of personal responsibility. And I think that's what Catherine's talking about. But bringing about structural change is not easy to do.

And there are a lot of people out there who do have to earn a crust, as we all do. And frankly, they found a way of doing it. They may not be learned, they may not be qualified, but they can still bank a few bob on the back of promoting, frankly, a load of tosh. The problem is, I think that if you're going to speak about mental health, it's a highly scientific thing. I, for example, have a bank of experts in neuroscience, psychology, psychiatry, who I consult with to make sure that I am getting the science right when I'm working with vulnerable young people. A lot of the celebrities in particular who have waded into this space don't understand the basic distinction between mental fitness and mental illness. Now, there

are things that you can do to improve your mental fitness, like mindfulness, like exercise, which, as you rightly pointed out, is magnified when you do it in nature, the benefits of it. But that's not going to cure mental illness. And because we have quite a limited amount of words to have this mental health conversation, I think the messages are becoming confused. And it's like you were saying, Pixie, you know, people claiming that if you spend thousands of pounds of going on a silent yoga retreat, and it's going to cure your bipolar disorder, that is an incredibly dangerous message. Yeah, I mean, I think, Catherine, tell me, is this what you're thinking about and you're concerned about? Or are you thinking on a more practical level? Because most people don't have thousands to spend on yoga retreats, however much they might fancy the idea. Yeah, and I think it's, you know,

as women going about our ordinary everyday lives, how do we make sure that we're looking after ourselves for our sake and the sake of the people around us? How do we look after our mental wellness without it becoming yet another stick we beat ourselves with because we are very good at that as women and i think to be fair i mean you you and i are around the same age it doesn't actually get any easier does it no you and i are still receiving the same messages that make us concerned about our appearance or whatever it might be i suppose

they're rather different messages to the ones our kids might be getting but we're still getting them yeah yeah and it can drag you down, Natasha. So what do you do? I mean, mindfulness is any activity. What is? How do you define it? Mindfulness is any activity that you can do that stops you from dwelling on the past or worrying about the future. So it can be knitting.

It can be running. It doesn't have to be doing meditation or yoga or any of the fancy things it's been repackaged as. And back when human beings were living a tribal existence, mindfulness, a period of mindfulness during the day was what allowed us to process the things that had happened, store things in long term memory and learn from the events of the day. It should be entirely free of charge. It should be a basic human right. But it's kind of unsexy when you frame it like that. You know, I'm sure you agree, Pixie, that nutrition advice is kind of unsexy as well. It's like eat your fruit and veg, drink enough water, don't overthink it.

Absolutely so true. That's a very short book, though. Yeah, exactly. Very short. You can't really sell much on that kind of message. But with food, again, there's this very kind of sexy message about, oh, eat this food and it will cure all sorts of conditions. Or eat this food and you'll feel amazing. It's the miracle cure

or it's the miracle thing that's going to give you more energy. And actually, although food cannot cure things like depression, but food can absolutely contribute to you feeling a little bit better about yourself and especially about your body. When you're feeding yourself well and you're treating yourself with good food from a position of self-respect,

that can genuinely make you feel better about the body that you're can genuinely make you feel better about the body that you're living in without you changing anything about your appearance yeah um celery juice ever had it Catherine no don't recommend celery though do you oh yeah oh crunchy celery with a bit of hummus absolutely beautiful and you get all the benefits from it if you eat it just as it is rather than juicing it you actually get fewer benefits from it when you juice it so it makes doesn't make any sense either. A quick word from you, Natasha, on a go-to food place.

A go-to food place? I have absolutely no qualifications in this area. It doesn't matter what I've got in, I was going to say something. I mean, I feel like carrot cake and a cup of tea can make you feel better about most things. Yeah, I would absolutely. Although I'm not keen on carrot cake. In fact, it's my least favourite cake. No, lemon drizzle is my least favourite cake. That's controversial. Well, I'm a very controversial broadcaster.

Natasha, thank you very much. And Catherine, thank you. And Pixie, thank you for coming in. Any thoughts on that? Of course, you can contact the programme. Interesting. I knew we would get a tweet like this. And of course we have.

This is from Catherine. When I was young in the 70s and 80s, and you know what's coming, a wolf whistle or a hello darling could make my day however she goes on to say but I never recall comments of a degrading or sexual nature was it a more polite society more decorous towards women Cyrus says I've been angry about harassment for 50 years there is plenty that men can do about their behaviour. And let me see, there's another one here. Jane says, when harassed in the street,

my friend's daughter holds up her phone to take photos and yells very loudly, I've got photos, I've got your car, Reg, I'm going to your school, stroke wife, stroke police, and it does the trick. Oh, how I wish we'd had phones when I was growing up. More on that, welcome, of course. You can contact the programme however you like. Now, throughout the course of this week,

every single idea, every subject on the programme has been suggested by you. And tomorrow, Jenny's going to be investigating what it's really like inside the PTA. And she'll talk, too, about women and endurance sports. And on Friday, it's me again. And we're talking about cooking for yourself after bereavement. This is inspired by a number of emails we had recently on that subject.

What it's like to suddenly find yourself cooking for one and how difficult that can be. Now, our next listener is Annie Dehaney-Steven. Annie, welcome to the programme. Good morning. Now, you are going back to university. First of all, congratulations. Thank you. Now, you are going back to university. Yes. First of all, congratulations. Thank you.

What are you going to be doing? I'm going to be doing a Masters in Music, Mind and Brain. Wow. As a Psychology Masters. That sounds absolutely fantastic. Has this been a long-term ambition? It's been something I'm interested in. I'm a scientist, was for many years.

I now teach Maths and Science, or have been teaching Maths and Science, and I wanted to do a master's, and I'm a singer and a musician. So it encompasses everything that interests me, and maybe the start of a new life. Well, I really hope it is for you. I'm excited for you. Your dilemma is what?

I'm 59 years old. I'm going back to university, and I don't know what to wear. I don't want to look like Martin, dressed as lamb. And I don't want to look like an old lady. I want to look right for me. Well, I don't think there's much chance of you looking like an old lady. You can forget that one.

If you were to describe your personal style, what would you say? My personal style is a black skirt, a coloured T-shirt and a pair of trainers. I do have a pair of rather disreputable jeans as well. Right. Disreputable in the sense that your family give you stick for wearing them. My family hate me wearing trainers with skirts and my jeans are pretty disgusting. OK, brilliant. Well, Alice Wilby is here, personal stylist and consultant. And Alice, it would be fair to say you're you're into sustainable fashion yes that's right and felicity k is the fashion editor

at l magazine welcome to you uh felicity um so first of all alice what would you say is is annie right to be even remotely concerned about sticking out a bit or should she just forget it and just be herself i think she should forget it and be herself we've been chatting in the green room and she's wonderful engaging warm engaging, warm, funny, interesting person who's going to get along great at Goldsmiths. But I'd also say that she's not going to be on her own and worrying about what to wear on the first day back at uni because everybody, regardless of their age, shape, size, preference of clothing, is going to be feeling anxious about what they wear on that first day. So that's the first thing I'd say.

You're not going to be alone in that worry. It is a concern, isn't it? Because you want to be accepted. And it's hard. Entering any new environment is a difficult thing to do. Students like to think of themselves as individual. And I have to say Goldsmiths is probably, I think I'm right in saying, one of the more fashionable establishments. Would be right? Yes but it's still very

artistic and bohemian so it's not necessarily it's not a fashion college in that sense. It's quite celebratory of individuality and yeah yeah. So actually Felicity you'd say that Annie's hit on a place where she can simply be herself and be at ease? Oh my god absolutely and we were talking about this earlier this sort of sense that going into a life transition, one of the first questions I get asked as a fashion stylist at Elle is what do I wear, but also what do I buy? People often have that knee-jerk reaction of rushing to the shops, dressing themselves head to toe in something brand new

and then often run the risk of feeling like they're in a costume ultimately. That isn't them ultimately that isn't them that isn't them and i think the best place to start um is to go back into your own wardrobe find that piece that you really love and you feel comfortable in and university is such a casual environment i mean when i was at university 10 years ago people were wearing pajamas so yeah um don't do that that's absolutely not what I'm suggesting I would have to buy pyjamas long since abandoned night wear god what a horrific image for the nation

sometimes I do forget where I am which is good what about the notion that I know you say go back, find a piece you love most of us don't keep stuff or don't have stuff expensive enough that we thought worth keeping in the first place or we don't have the storage space so what do we do well I think one place to start is to

think about the things that you have loved in the past and maybe you've let go of because they didn't fit anymore they didn't suit you and those things still exist if it's an amazing dress or a jacket and call it buy quality over quantity don't rush out and buy lots of cheap bits and pieces so if you were going to do that what would you prioritize this autumn is it a good jacket is it a coat what is it well september an amazing blazer there's a return of a lot of heritage check and that kind of 80s sorry dare i say it's that i wear it with jeans and a t-shirt which i think a lot of people will be a bit horrified by. This isn't the shoulder pads, is it?

A little bit. There's a little bit of that bigger shoulder coming back. So if you do have a jacket from the 80s, don't be afraid to dig it out. But maybe throw it over a dress that you love and that you already own and you feel comfortable in. Annie, does that ring any bells? Have you got any power shoulders? I gave up my power shoulders quite a long time ago. When the rest of me became wider than my shoulders, I decided not to bother with shoulders anymore. But I do have a few things that are that old, from the 80s.

I'm not sure that they should see the light of day. I've kept them for sentimental reasons. I think maybe you need a private consultation with Alice or Felicity or Beau. In terms of sustainability, Alice, what are the things that are worth keeping genuinely? Well, things that you love and things that you really enjoy wearing. I mean, you know, you just hit the nail on the head. So many of us throw things away or get rid of them because we, you know, we get stuck into this constant

cycle of buying and consuming but actually when you really love things you don't need a new piece you've already got the thing that you adore so the idea is to you know mend it take care of it keep it in your wardrobe for as long as possible but also when you find a shape or a silhouette that really suits you to stick with that and we were talking in the green room about performing and annie's an amazing jazz singer and gets dressed up in these beautiful dresses for her performances and she described them so wonderfully and your face lit up and they sound like they're evening dresses because you're doing shows but perhaps you might want to go and you know investigate getting something made in that style that's a bit more dressed down that

you could wear during the day and then you can bring that confidence and that that sort of stylish confidence that you exude on stage just bring a little element of that into your day-to-day it would mean having to wear makeup for me a really nice fitted dress would mean makeup and I except for evenings except for gigs really I don't wear makeup I don't want that half hour lost in the morning. But I'm completely with you on that one. I'm just, I barely wear anything myself. And I love a dress.

Absolutely love a dress. And when you get the right one, you don't need a face full of makeup. It could just be, you know, a really great shoe or a really wonderful, you know, jacket that goes with it. Really quick. Well, I mean, most students I know wear trainers and tracksuit bottoms and hoodies and something else well it's because they're well it's but yeah but they really do i mean yeah we haven't really moved on from your pajamas we've just moved into a slightly different form of elevated sportier version of yeah i think that's absolutely right um what about footwear i mean i know annie likes trainers she should really just maybe invest in a good pair of trainers i mean absolutely the the the thing that you really you know is going

to make you feel um uh really you know stylish is your confidence and to be really confident in your clothes you need to be comfortable in them first of all if you're not comfortable then you're going to feel you know awkward and that's going to come across so yeah really great trainers really nice comfy comfy trainers absolutely i must say my best woman sue yeah recently wore a beautiful dress to my wedding and a pair of silver trainers which is always really fabulous there you go that might be the way to dress down one of your dresses i think you're going to really enjoy yourself and i suspect by day three you'll have long since forgotten about whether you're wearing the right thing i think you'll have a great time. I'm really jealous.

It sounds like a real adventure for you. And I hope you enjoy it, Annie. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. And thank you to you as well, Felicity. And we also have the contribution of Alice. Thank you both very much. Alice Wilby and Felicity Kaye.

And our listener was Anna Dehaney-Steven, who's going back to uni in the autumn. Now, when we talked to Kathy Burke about her Channel 4 series, All Woman, she talked about being single and how much she enjoyed it. And Anne Parks was our guest as part of Listener Week yesterday. Anne got divorced as she headed for her golden wedding anniversary. And many people were inspired by hearing from her. Danielle tweeted to say, positive woman who chose to divorce in her later years, reinforcing my long held view, it's better to be on your own than to settle for a relationship which doesn't make you happy. Well, that's true, of course, but it doesn't mean that being single

is necessarily easy. Many of you wanted us to talk about being single this week, including a listener called Karen, who says, I'm a single childless woman. Right, that's that off my chest. I'm really, really thrilled that the world, or at least a Woman's Hour contributor, has woken up to the fact that we're not all sectionable, fit for dunking, or worthy only of cast-off pity. I'm 60, single and childless. I have many friends in the same situation, and we have a great life. I'm a nurse with a great career and career opportunities and projects, Well, Karen then went on to explain that she's now working in France, so she wasn't able to come on the programme today, but we do have other women willing to talk about this

and willing to talk about the positive side of being single. So I'll introduce them now. Bibi Lynch is with us, 53, presenter at BBC Sussex and Surrey, host of the station's Whips programme. Bibi, that's right, isn't it? That's correct. Now tell me a bit about Whips. What's that? You're a whip. Women who are hot. You're so funny.

You're a chief whip. Women who are hot, intelligent and in their prime. How about that? Intelligent. Well, we'll leave that. I'll settle for some of the rest of it. Emily Hill is here, novelist, author of Bad Romance. Welcome to the programme, Emily. And you are in your early 30s.

Yes. Okay. That's right. I'm slightly massaging my age there. I'm 36. 36? I'm happy for that. All right. And'm 36. 36? I'm happy for that. All right.

And Joy is a listener in our Nottingham studio. Hi, Joy. Hi. Tell us a bit about your life, Joy. Yeah, well, I'm 42. I'm single. I do have a child. He's nine years old.

And I was married when I was pregnant with him but I had him at my mum and dad's place because I had to leave my husband at the time so I've been a single mum since I was six months pregnant really yeah and that's me. And do you feel remotely judged Joy? I have to say that in my own head, before I gave birth, I thought I would be. And I was judging myself almost very harshly. But the reality of it was when I got out into the world with my little boy, people couldn't have been more positive. And frankly, you know, didn't bat an eyelid, which was great. So where does this perceived negativity about your singledom come from? I don't know. It's hard to say whether it's a kind of an inbuilt thing that women, you know,

it's just in our DNA almost over the years in novels, in films, and maybe we're sort of, we just feel like that, I guess. But then when the reality hits you as a person, you can find it so very, very different. I mean, you're right about the novels, but that's sort of Jane Austen territory, isn't it? Emily, what would you say about that? Well, I think that's right. It is very, very embedded in our culture. That's why I actually started writing about single women as a phenomenon because my first book, Bad Romance, it's short stories

and they're about all sorts of women, but most especially single women because I don't think that we are represented in the culture enough. I think what's happened is when single women were new in the 90s, there was Carrie Bradshaw, there was all the girls in Sex and the City, there was also Bridget Jones. Bridget Jones is married with a baby now. All the Sex and the City figures, and there's no... And then what we have now, we had girls, and they're all in their 20s,

and I just couldn't relate to it at all. And then we have Fleabag, who's this kind of terrifying vision of what a single woman might be. And cultural representations of women through single women throughout history. I mean, you know, now like you will sort of people will say, oh, you know, don't get a cat, you know, don't get a cat. And it's like, why shouldn't I have a cat if I like cats? But it's this kind of vision of women as witches. And, you know, we used to get burned to the stake. And now, you know, we've suffered to go on all these horrible internet dates

because society kind of expects us to at least be trying to get married. All right, Bebe, what do you say? Trying to get married. Trying to get married all right bb what what did you say trying to get married going trying to get married i think um i mean single and childless is is the the double whammy of pity the poor jen head tilt the pity um i was at a funeral listen to this i was at a funeral i can't believe this story but carry on yeah and a woman who apparently i'd met before and i don't recall came up to me my sister had to hold me back and she said to me, so, did you get married?

And I went, no. And then she went, did you have children? And I said, no. And she went, oh, well, well done anyway. It's not for everyone. So we're at a funeral. Well done what? On continuing to breathe.

Breathing. Just breathing. Just breathing. It's so extraordinary how we are judged. And I think that's proven by that research that came out from an LSE professor recently who said that childless and single women are the happiest in society. That went viral because we felt that we were being acknowledged. But I actually found it really patronising because that added to it. What do you mean?

Because, by the way, that wasn't new. I remember being taught that in psychology at university back in the 80s. What, that we're the happiest? Yeah, that actually marriage was good for men, but psychologically not brilliant for women. Well, I think it was seen as an insight and an explosion of insight because we're told we're not, we're pitied and we're judged and, yeah, if you get a cat,

you know, you've gone into the crazy territory. I mean, I don't understand it. I don't understand the head tilt. Because guess what? I'm not the one... I can't see that someone with 2.4 children and being married to a man or woman is any necessarily more happy than I am

because I'm not sitting here wanting to kill someone because of the sound they make when they eat a baguette. You know, I have a really great life. I'm straddling happy. But I'm not allowed to be happy because I'm told I'm not allowed to be happy. Oh, that's interesting. And that's the worst thing about it. Yeah.

Okay. I mean, I follow you on Twitter. You're very funny. Sorry about the language. Yeah. Well, you can be. Yeah, there is that. But you can be a bit bleak sometimes. You acknowledge there is another side to this, isn't there?

But there's another side to being married and a parent as well. Of course, yeah. But that's not allowed. And the reason we're not shown that because of all the fake book posts, and that's where i think the um and i will call it bigotry actually i think that's where the prejudice comes from in that people are maybe threatened i mean you know i'd love to be in love that doesn't mean i want to be married because in a long time i can't commit to a shampoo so i don't know if i could be with someone forever

and ever but you know we're told with these fake book posts kind of tell us that life is this and life is that. But we all know the reality isn't that. But they're perpetuating a myth that doesn't help them or doesn't help us. It's so damaging. Can I say one thing? The people that I interview, I interview a lot of young people. And they seem to have a really great take on this because they're polyamorous. They're pansexual,

they're in throuples, ladies. So that's a man and a woman and then they've got a girlfriend or a boyfriend. This is extraordinary. They're exhausted but they're happy because they don't have the confines of the role models that I feel that we're still suffering because of. I mean, I think if you're in a throuple

and I haven't got the energy, obviously, but doesn't that mean that possibly two people could annoy you with the way they eat a baguette? I mean, let's be honest. Emily, what would you say? I agree entirely. I don't understand that urge at all. But I do completely agree that, you know,

it's difficult. One of the issues that we face, I think, as single women is if we want to have children, I would love to have children, that becomes a major problem um if you and there's this phenomenon that isn't again isn't talked about i think because we're women of social infertility it's like i agree completely i would love to fall in love what what's social oh i see social infertility you just can't find anybody to fall in love with

and and have a baby with and this is not i I think, and then we're all blamed, you know, for the falling birth rate. And that's entirely our fault, rather than actually, it's not finding a man who, you know, wants what we want, and can give that to us or would want to give that to us. And I think the thing is, there are many, many upsides to being single. And those aren't talked about either. I'm talking about things going viral. I did a piece for The Guardian about the price of being single and how we're kind of penalised against there. And that went around the world. I had emails from women in Iraq saying, thank you for pointing this out.

Wow. And just for anybody who doesn't know, what is that actually? What do you mean by that? The cost of being single? Well, OK, so we're penalised in the tax system in terms of if we live on our own, then we get a small decrease in council tax, like the single-person supplement. But in terms of how much we're paying in comparison with a married couple,

it's a big price. And then there's just so many other ways, like even the National Trust. You know, if you're in a couple, it's cheaper to go to the National Trust. But the thing is, I think that it's important to kind of celebrate what we can do and our kind of abilities to be happy. Just as it's important to also admit that there's a downside, like there is a downside to marriage, for instance. One of my friends said it's not just a case of in terms of creativity and what you want to do with your life and and having things that

you want to achieve um it's not just the pram by the door it's the toothbrush by the sink and i think that we do tend to in relationships we've been kind of taught to put a man first and so maybe one of the things that's so attractive about being single to women is the chance to actually go you know we're only alive so long i've got things I want to achieve and I can concentrate on that. And this is about me. Yes. Yeah. OK, now I get that.

And Joy, I know at the moment you're prioritising your young son. He is only young. Yeah. Of course, he won't be staying at home with you forever. No, no, that's right. But I completely agree with what I've just heard, you know, in terms of finding that I have time if I wish to, which I do, you know, as well as running my own business and looking after my son, I have time to go and play tennis and paint and print make and go to life drawing classes. All things which, you know, if I had to stay at home and do ironing, God forbid, or, you know, cook huge family meals, I couldn't do. Joy on the real pleasures of her single life.

And Emily is still here. So too is Bibi. Right, Sabina emailed to say, or tweeted actually, I think, I was widowed after 44 years of marriage and I was actually dreading being on my own, but it gave me a chance to discover myself. Solitude in moderation is a wonderful thing. Otherwise, I've got my friends and my garden, I've got my hobbies, my time and freedom to discover myself. Solitude in moderation is a wonderful thing. Otherwise, I've got my

friends and my garden. I've got my hobbies, my time and freedom to pursue them. I am content. Jessica says, having been single for most of my 50 years and very happily so in my late 40s, I found those that were most uncomfortable and judgmental of this were women in long-term unhappy relationships. Now, Emily, you're nodding. I am nodding, yes. But you recognise that. Well, the thing is, you never know what's going on in somebody's marriage,

but people will come up to you routinely whenever you see them, even at funerals, apparently, as we heard, and sort of ask about your single status, and you'd never, ever dream of turning around to them and saying, you know, how often do you sleep with your husband? You know, or anything that would allude to what's going on. Is he still using the Viagra? Exactly.

I'm so horrible. You're sort of like, and especially like even young girls, you know, in their 20s, they're sort of asked, you know, like you'd ask about the weather, you know, about their marriage plans, you know, in the future or whether they want to have children in a way that you know wouldn't be said to a man but also like you're kind of being asked to explain very very personal decisions to which you might not have even made yet um which i find but i mean i don't want to be too critical about that because often it's you know people just trying to make conversation but it is it is I think that because you're single I think there is it's a little bit we're so accepting of alternative lifestyle choices in every single way and I think the the one remaining thing

maybe because all the other lifestyle choices like there's gay marriage so that's kind of um acceptable and brilliant and wonderful and everybody has the same rights to get married and that's great but that kind of the the opposite side of that is like you just as considered more weird if you're single especially if you're happy being single if you're kind of running around after men in sort of a chick lit style way but that's perceived to be doing the right thing yes exactly isn't that right bb that people understand if you're in hot pursuit of a you know in heteronormative relationships a man um they get that it's the women who say oh i've pulled up the

drawbridge and i couldn't be happier yeah i think it's because you're kind of shining a light on their decisions which again we're not allowed to comment on it is it's it's what you're what you're saying about the most personal questions are allowed to be asked of you if you are single and childless you know why haven't you had children why are you still single you know why are you talking to me don't don't don't bring this stuff to me it's do you know what i think the worst thing is is that you're made to feel shame around it you're made to feel like you've made the wrong decisions you might have made the best decision for you that that's what i don't understand about this i i don't i don't have these judgments about other people i really try not to but people seem to seem to be a happy to do it and be really fierce with it as well i mean joe the childless thing is a huge

factor for me and social infertility um is it is a huge deal um there's a woman called jodie day who oh yeah she's been on the program yeah she's fantastic and she's the founder of gateway women which is um for an organization as a support group for women who are childless not by choice childless by circumstance and she talks about pronatalism and i've never heard of that word and now it's all I have in my head because pronatalism is worshipping at the altar of parenthood and there is this this perception that you are more if you're a parent you're better you're suddenly almost a deity as a as a mother rhetoric hard-working families rhetoric and that spills over to being married

or in a long-term relationship too and it's just just so unhelpful. It's pressure for the people who are parents and in long-term relationships because they have to live up to what they see as the dream. Because if they're unhappy, why are they unhappy? Because they've got the best thing ever. And it's really depressing and horrible for people who don't have that because we feel like, as Beyonce said,

I found myself when I had children. Well, that's very helpful, Beyonce. Thank you so much. Because that makes the rest of us feel like we're Beyonce said, I found myself when I had children. Well, that's very helpful, Beyonce. Thank you so much. Because that makes the rest of us feel like we're nothing. We're all something. We're all brilliant. I find it extraordinary that we can't be allowed in 2019. And exactly as you say,

when we're trying to find equality everywhere else, it's not allowed here. And it seems so normal and so easy to get that, you know, I'm just not married. That's it. Beyonce has so much to answer for in a certain way. Because she's held up as this amazing feminist figure. And it's like, she's very, very married. She's very, very got the children.

You know, the single ladies, he liked it. So he put a ring on it. And then the single ladies, uh-oh, uh-oh, uh-oh. I mean, that's basically what we do. It's like, uh-oh. And what was going on with Becky with the great hair or the good hair? I think I was going to say that. Some would say she's made a few compromises.

But then who doesn't in any sort of relationship? By the way, somebody took issue, I can't remember who it was, someone on Twitter took issue with your, I think you said something about Fleabag. Yes. A terrifying image. And somebody's asked, what did you mean by that? Well, I think the interesting thing about Fleabag is, first of all, she's called Fleabag. She doesn't have a name.

And she kind of goes around in this absolutely desperate state. The other thing is, I've got so many problems with Fleabag, and I know was going to make me violently violently unpopular no no I'm interested series of fleabag was all about for me the the most beautiful and wonderful thing about being single is how much time I can still devote to my female friends and this kind of it was just a horrific vision of a woman you know who her best friend um you know she's such a sex maniac she and that's and that's the other thing that we get fear as women it's like i think a lot of women think that we're after their husbands or if they're not all their sons or you know or any kind of you know because we're supposed to be these desperate figures who just want a man whereas what's i

think more empowering is actually accepting rebecca tracer who did this brilliant book called all the single ladies you know pointing out that there's more single women alive today than at any point in history we have our freedom we have choice and we're not really examined we're not really you know looked at as like a new way to live or why we might want to live there and i suppose because it threatens it threatens threatens. Something. Yeah, I mean, one of my... So I've... The most popular... There's two that are most popular of my short stories.

One where this woman goes to a party dressed all in headstone leopard print. And that's very terrifying. Leopard print is very terrifying. That's just being single times to the max, you know, like terrifying woman. So that... Anyway, it unfolds in disaster. It's all online.

It's quite funny, hopefully. And the other one is this is this literally like a sort of my solution to how to be single at parties, because it's single at parties. You have to have a whole repertoire of retorts in your arsenal so as a single woman confronted by because we still haven't got past the the bridget jones that classic line of bridget jones when she's at a dinner party everybody else has a partner and and you get asked why are there so many single women your age bridget and you know it's like and you just have to say well there's scales under my clothes you know like and and all sorts of things like i you know there's plenty more fish in the sea you'll get told and then so I always think well you could well but yeah the cod stock decline is alarming sperm whales are endangered species or you know you're looking in the wrong places

well I tip my handbag out I don't think he's in the fridge you know like all these kind of things and they're people are being kind they're nice. But there's just this kind of, there's this level of being happy in yourself that they don't get. And I love, I love the fact that Women's Hour listeners all said, yeah, let's talk about being happy and being single. Because I really think it's something

that we need to talk about more. Bebe, the trouble is this conversation, there isn't an equivalent programme for men like Women's Hour. I know Men's Hour exists sometimes on Five Live. It's not on all the time. But single men would single, I don't know. I think single men get a bad rap, you know, because at least we've got exactly what you say.

At least we've got a place to talk about it. And amongst our friendship groups, we do as well. Because, again, I write a lot about being childless um i've i've had such moving tweets and conversations with men who are single without kids who one man it won't go to any social event now because he can't face it he can't face the conversation he can't face because it's emasculating as well as anything else you know we feel hardwired as women to have children i think men feel hardwired in that in that kind of i am man way to to produce several you know it's it's across the board awkward what

you're saying about that where um we're seen as predatory we're seen as cheap as well as up for it you know and i mean the whips thing was i wrote a piece for stella and i was writing about that younger men find older women attractive. Brilliant. But I didn't want to write about cougars because I really don't like that expression because it's predatory and it's not that complimentary to the man or the woman.

So I came up with the acronym WHIPS and that can be used across the board here. It's powerful and it's not just about relationships, it's about attitude if you are single, and you want to do whatever you want to do, you are allowed to do that. But there's no, as you say, there's no equipment for men, I don't well. I just want to read a couple of your thoughts on the street harassment and the attention, unwanted attention, that young women, although not always young, are getting. Sue says, I'm 57 and I've got an abiding memory of being 13 and a bus conductor calling out loudly, if I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me?

Well, I never wore anything that in any way revealed my shape for the next 12 years. But I still had to endure regular comments about my body. It was incredibly confusing and so hard to develop a healthy, strong sense of self at a time when I needed that more than anything. Mary says the vile men who call out at teenagers or young women just walking in the world, please stop. Men, if you see this, can you also stop them? They won't listen to us.

Rachel says, when I was this age, we all put up with bum pinching and comments thinking it was just the way of the world. I hope this generation knows it isn't the way of the world and they are well within their rights not to put up with it. My second thought is what is being done at schools to challenge boys about this behaviour? Dave says my daughter's 20.

She had a young lad airdrop a topless pic of himself onto her phone. He was sitting next to her. Awkward isn't strong enough a word. Apparently this is a trend. From Carol, my youngest daughter would get sexualised comments from men driving by her on her journey to and from school when she was in uniform. What do these men expect will happen as a result of this exchange with an underage teenager was her repeated question. These were not teens on the street,

but predatory adult men in their cars. All I could say to my girls was, I'm sorry, but not all men are like that. Three of them now have delightful partners who would never dream of behaving like this. So there is hope. How do we educate the upcoming generation to be like my daughter's partners and not like the disgusting cat callers? And from Linda,

unfortunately, this has always happened. One consolation of getting older is that you do become invisible. Well, that's not a terrifically positive place to stop, but that's where we've got to go. So thank you all for a really brilliant interaction throughout. Listener Week's always a popular thing with the listeners, oddly enough. And it's great that so many of you are so keen to get your views to us. Thank you very much. Please continue to do it. And Jenny is here tomorrow. I'm Sheila Dillon. And before you go, I wanted to tell you about

the Food Programme podcast, The Place for Hungry Minds. In our latest episode, I sit down to talk to Jamie Oliver. We used to go and pick sorrel and rocket on roundabouts and I'm like, yeah, but Gennaro, it's kind of, a lot of

exhaust fumes around here, Gennaro. Lead, lead, Gennaro. Not good. It was wonderful to hear that Jamie Oliver, master of Italian cooking, actually only encountered olive oil in his late teens. My geography teacher, Mr Saga, said that I was deaf. In Essex, the only place to get olive oil was Boots. So, subscribe to the Food Programme on BBC Sounds.

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