Woman's Hour - Listener Week: Is it ever good to give up on dreams? Working class women & university, Living funerals

Episode Date: August 23, 2023

For Woman's Hour's Listener Week, you, our listeners, decide what we cover on the programme.Nuala McGovern is joined by Monica and chartered psychologist Catherine Hallissey to discuss when it might be the right decision to give up on your dream. We'd like to hear your views on the issue. Have you decided to change course or realised a goal isn’t meant to be?Earlier this month, we heard the experiences of young people who are opting to live at home while they study at university because of the cost of living. That prompted a listener, Dr Pam Woolner from Newcastle University, to get in touch to tell us about the latest research by her colleague Dr Sam Shields. It looks into the experiences of working class women going to university and the challenges they face. Sam is senior lecturer in Education at Newcastle University and joins Nuala along with the writer Jessica Andrews who was the first in her family to go to university, leaving her home in the north-east of England to study in London.    One of our listeners got in touch to tell us that his daughter had discovered a previously unseen poem by Georgiana the Duchess of Devonshire, who you may know about from the Keira Knightley film, The Duchess. We’ll be bringing you that poem and discussing why the duchess was such an influential political figure in her day.And Nelly has asked us to talk about living funerals. She was inspired by Kris Hallenga, the founder of the CoppaFeel breast cancer awareness charity, who has stage 4 breast cancer and who held a living funeral for herself.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Andrew Garratt00:00 OPENER 01:43 LIVING FUNERALS 22.46 WORKING CLASS ACADEMICS 35.45 DUCHESS POEM 46.57 GIVING UP ON DREAMS 5439 CLOSE

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Now, one of my favourite aspects of presenting this programme is the input we get from you, our listener. Every day when you respond to the questions that we ask, it gives rise to such a huge wealth of experience and also of opinion. So you can imagine just how much I'm enjoying this week. It's listener week. So thank you for all the ideas you have sent and continue to send. Now, here are some of your ideas that are coming up today. Living funerals. So celebrating with the person before they die.

Also, the experiences of working class women at university. We'll hear about the charismatic Georgiana, Duchess of Devonshire. The daughter of a listener found a previously unknown poem that Georgiana had written as a young woman. So we'll hear all about that. And another listener, Monica, she got in touch because she thinks we need to acknowledge and accept

when it's time to give up on our lifelong dreams. Now, what about that? Is there something perhaps that you decided to call time on? Learning to fly, scaling Kilimanjaro, learning how to jive dance

I don't know what did you feel if you decided that's it time up relief resignation regret

something else I want to hear it what you decided to give up on and how did it make you feel you can text the programme 84844 on social media

we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. And the WhatsApp number is 03700 100 444. Same way to get in touch if you want to get some ideas in this week as well for Listener Week. Now, let me turn to funerals. They're typically a place of grieving and honouring the dead. But have you ever heard of one where the person being celebrated and mourned is still alive and in the room?

Well, that is the concept behind the living funeral. They're said to have originated in Japan and they're a new alternative to funerals for those facing terminal illnesses. The subject was suggested by our listener Nelly, who emailed the programme to say the following. I thought I should let you know about a very inspirational lady who did something incredible recently.

Chris Alenga, the founder of Copperfield, recently had a living funeral with all the people she loves. She has stage four breast cancer and is on a mission to make people understand death a little bit more and not see it as a scary process. You might remember seeing Chris's living funeral. It was officiated by Don French in full vicar garb, no less. And a living funeral, it was also the right choice for Heidi Satherwaite. Now, she was diagnosed with a rare form of cancer known as

MDS in 2018. After living with the illness for several years, Heidi decided to have a living funeral with her close friends and family to celebrate her life. Let's listen to a little of it. Ultimately, the biggest joys of my life have been moments of deep connection with people. Just looking out over all these spaces that I love. It's a room full of love. And I just, I feel my heart is full. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for being part of my life. It's just meant the world. Well, Heidi has since died and I got to speak to Heidi's sister, Jenna, beginning with asking her to tell me all about her sister. Yeah, Heidi was very special.

She died at 34. She was my little sister. And the best way I can describe her is to say that she loved people. She was ambitious in a people-oriented way. She aimed to get to know and really understand everyone she came across. And it was impossible to interact with her and not feel that energy. She would look you in the eye and say, who are you? Tell me. And you would tell her. She got people to open up and she created a beautiful community of friends all over the world. She was from a military family. Her husband is army. They lived all over the place, Alaska, Hawaii, Alabama, Cameroon, Africa, etc.

And she collected friends all over the globe. So she sounds wonderful. You're painting that picture of her and her community. But some of that community must have come together for what she decided she wanted, which was a living funeral. How would you describe that event, ceremony? What do we call it? We call it a party. She said very early on in cancer. So she had a four year journey between diagnosis and her death. And early on, we were talking about funerals because she was close to death many times. And she was talking to me and

our sister Erica and said, you know what I want? If I have to die, I want to call up my friends and have a party. And that was in 2019. She didn't die until last year, 2022. And so when we were in the hospital and her fevers were out of control and we realized, oh, this is it. Now is actually the time to die. The very first thing we talked about was time to throw that party. So in under a week from, yeah, I think it was six days between that decision to start the death process and the party, we threw together this massive event that I can only compare to a wedding. Honestly, it had so many of the same components. It had speeches and toasts. It had dancing, an explosive playlist. We sweated so hard on the dance floor. We got it catered. We had an emcee. She and her husband closed out the party by dancing to the same song they danced at at their wedding. So it was just this magical and pain-filled celebration of her life. And she was in Boston at the time, and they'd only been there for a year. So we also had a moment where we were like, okay, we're going to plan this big event.

We're going to get a hall. We're going to make it happen. But we don't know who's going to show up. It might be 10 people. And to our utter surprise and delight, 200 people showed up at the last minute in the middle of the summer. People cancelled vacation plans, hopped on planes, rented cars. They made it happen. And they showed up for her to say their goodbyes and be present at that party. And that is an interesting aspect about the goodbye, Jenna, because we think of funerals

as closure in a way, right, traditionally. And I wonder what that living funeral did in that respect maybe it was closure for some of the people that came I don't know you tell me how you see it that's such a good question um I would describe it as an exclamation point um at the end of a sentence, the sentence of her life. I guess you could call it closure. It was that moment when you pause to acknowledge a beautiful life. And we don't do that often, especially I feel like in America, we're bad at celebrating. We're always looking to the next thing and shifting goalposts. So it was really special to come together and kind of close that

sentence as a group. This and say this was her life. She lived it well, exclamation point. What did Heidi tell you about that time afterwards, about the party, as we're calling it? She loved it. She had a blast. It was honestly fun. And we cried a lot. I think all of us, it dovetailed really well with the grief process and the death process in a way that traditional funerals don't always. You know, there was a bit of a surge of energy when we realized now it's time to die and we have a lot to figure out. There was some adrenaline to that. And so kind of channeling that energy into a party really fit well with our processes, with Heidi's and with the rest of ours. And she wanted to do it for herself, but she also wanted to do it for the rest of us.

And that was her heart. She researched throughout all of cancer, but especially there at the end. She really wanted to do things in a way that was best, not just for her, but for her family and for her four small children. So to her, the living funeral and then its counterpart, which was the at-home funeral after her death, she put a lot of thought into what is best for everyone, what fits best with the natural process of grief. And it chose as a family to keep the body at home for three days. That's unusual in some cultures, very common in others. Tell me a little about that as we think about the living funeral, this aspect, and then her traditional funeral. Much in the same way that the living funeral had a natural follow through within that adrenaline state and wanting to have that closure.

What we're calling the at-home funeral, that also dovetailed with the grief process. And again, she had researched this after she passed. We didn't want to talk to strangers. We didn't want to offer condolences to people that she had known, but we didn't know. We didn't want to plan an event. I remember thinking in those few days we had her body with us, I cannot imagine planning something now. That silent space where her body was in the bedroom, you could go in and visit, sit with her alone, cry, close the door, have some privacy. That allowed us to really listen to our grief because grief is not a straightforward path. I always think of it as a journey that you can only discover by walking it.

And having the at-home funeral allowed us to listen to ourselves. I can't call it healing because it doesn't fix the loss, but it was less traumatic. Processing, maybe. Yes, that's a perfect word. Less traumatic than having strangers come in and wheel her out in a body bag. She belonged to us. And those three days really honored that. She was ours. She was our person. It was a privilege to be able to take care of her body. The word beautiful comes to mind,

even though it was horrible. It was a nightmare. And it was lovely. And I'm finding the older I get, those two things come wrapped together. You did tweet a poem about the funeral, which went viral. Would you be able to read us some of that? Absolutely. How much do you want? The whole thing or a little part?

It's called Advice for the Dying. If you have the curse of advance notice throw a party don't have a funeral it's not as fun get it catered rent a hall hire a dj have speeches live your fantasy of hearing all the nice things people have to say about you say your goodbyes hug copiously and when you're tired raise a glass and wish everyone joy. I remember reading it at the time, actually, before I knew you. Well, I don't know you, but before we've met, we've met today for the first time. But I remember coming across it online and being just so struck by it.

And I wasn't the only one, Jenna. Tell me about the response you got. Oh, I had never gone viral before. So that was a new experience. And it was also beautiful. I've used that word already, but it really was that a poem about my grief and a very intense experience of watching my best friend die

resonated with people and encouraged them to open up with their own stories. May I ask you just to read the last verse as I let you go? And thank you so much, Jenna, for spending some time with us. I'll let the words be the last part of our interview. All right, I'll read the last few lines. When your breath runs shallow and squeezes you hollow and it's finally safe to go because your kids are spending the day at Canobie Lake and your oldest sister is crying next to you on the bed while the other one strokes your hand. Walk towards the light. No. Run.

I was talking to Jenna Satterwhite and speaking about her sister Heidi who died last year. As our original listener Nellie who got in touch about living funerals, she said that they were also chosen by people like Kristen Helenga who has breast cancer and she formed Copafield, you might know that breast cancer education charity and Chris has been living with stage four breast cancer since 2009 and she celebrated hers having a living funeral disco balls costumes lots of dancing and she decided to organize this ceremony in conjunction with the platform Legacy of Lives. So this is a free online funeral arranging service which supports end-of-life patients to plan their funerals and also trying

to take away that taboo of death. I do have their CEO Rebecca Peach with us now. Hi Rebecca, welcome to Woman's Hour. Hi there, thanks for having me on. Let's talk about Chris and how you came to learn about living funerals. Chris reached out to us. She'd used the platform and just really liked what we were doing and taking the taboo out of sort of planning and thinking ahead about end of life planning so we had a couple of meetings and yeah chris is just absolutely amazing and we started to work and collaborate in partnership to sort of try and push people to start thinking and planning ahead whether that be as a living funeral or an at-need funeral but to talk about wishes and wants needs and be prepared um and she asked us to be a part of her living funeral, which was amazing. So we sort of supported her with it. And, you know, it was amazing to see it all come together.

It was absolutely phenomenal. It was beyond our wildest dreams. It got a lot of pickup. I did notice Dawn French, of course, officiating, if that's the correct word, at the living funeral. But I'm wondering, I'm particularly thinking back to Jenna there as well, who you were listening to.

She spoke about her sister, Heidi. For them, it worked in that way to process what was happening. But for many people, preparing for a funeral after someone dies, it's necessary to have that perhaps cathartic relief and to have that time. And with a living funeral, you may not get that, right? Absolutely. I think many people, well, I can see it start happening, is perhaps having that, whether it be a great big party with DJs or whether it be sitting in the garden with the people you love, I think the main focus is telling that person how much they mean to you while they're there, while they're present. And I think for a lot of us, it's that nerve wracking feeling of thinking, oh, I can't discuss it. I don't want to scare somebody by talking about death and we're trying we're

trying to get rid of that taboo where it's all about sort of sharing your feelings wants and needs and and and fears whether you're passing away or whether you know you're a family member and you have so much to say to them I think it's really about encapsulating that before it's too late but also having a funeral to allow the family to grieve and to you know we're all about pushing the the funeral of the person giving that person a voice giving that person legacy how they would like it not necessarily traditional but um yeah so it's kind of two sides perhaps which it is before death and after death. And I often think no matter how much you think you're prepared for somebody to die, when they do die, the feelings are completely different.

So maybe that's why those funerals are so different, the pre-funeral or the post-death funeral. Why are you speaking out about this, Rebecca? I know you have the organisation, but it is taboo. It's not a very British thing to do, if I can say that. Absolutely. For me, it was about going through it myself. I lost my Auntie Kathy, who was like, you know, an amazing part of my life. And I was going through it with my younger cousins.

I really felt that I wanted to support them and I found myself not knowing anything so um whether that would be what to say during the you know final days or whether it'd be the funeral I had no idea about documentation and you know first port of call is I went online and um just couldn't find anything that sort of gave me you know apart from going for the government website then going to calling around funeral directors etc there was nothing that gave me the whole journey and even from the sort of first prognosis from the doctor saying that it's only going to be a few days there was nothing constructive for us to do as a family

and we didn't know how to you know go and speak to Kathy and ask her you know anything she wanted or something so we sort of was sort of scared all the way through I would say um so it made me feel a bit like oh my god I don't want people to go through this I mean my cousins were incredibly strong and and in fact they they they were the ones that sort of got me through it in the end but it's I then went away and thought this would be something that's free and available and people can go online and use this whether that's the person that's terminally ill that can put their wants needs and share them or or a family um that sort of you know need to get pricing because again like there's there's huge disparity in pricing and and how to sort of reach out to funeral directors without having to repetitively go through the sadness of it all.

And that's how I put it together and work with industry experts, grief counsellors, hospice nurses, you know, tech developers, etc. And we brought this to the market. I was looking at your website. It's, I thought, a phenomenally small number of people that actually have a plan make a plan well actually there wasn't a facility in the uk to do it for free um before so we're seeing our growth 500 month a month people are noting down their plans how many was it rebecca though did i see 16 percent or did i have a good oh sorry you

know i'm sorry i thought you meant actually on our site um yeah it's about it's not even that i think it's about like 10 or something like that down their funeral wishes um they're not done when you sort of do the will which you're you're yeah one day it will be sort of you do the will or a pension and you you just note this down because it's you know it's not you don't just die at old age it's you know you should be doing it straight away. Can I read you a couple of messages that came in while we've been talking and also hearing from Jenna. My cousin Sue was diagnosed with terminal cancer with about six months to live. She planned a celebration of life party. She invited all the people she loved. We had a wonderful time with music, dancing, balloons and food. We had a memory box where everyone was invited to leave a letter, card or a poem,

anything they wished, and Sue took it home and read them over her last few months. Another from Sally. I'm a Methodist minister and I've had a few experiences of people wanting a living funeral. It's more often asked for by those who are terminally ill. It can be a really powerful experience for all involved. More common are people who want to meet to plan their post-death funeral. But again, involvement of the person is key. It can certainly help families to experience

the inevitability of death, something that is still taboo in our culture. And that's from Sally. I mean, I think it's something we must do. We must start to voice our opinion. There's so much people dying in poverty as well and, you know, in funeral debt. So our research shows that actually when you share your wishes, it actually brings the costs down because you don't sometimes have the traditional whistles and bells

that you might otherwise just go ahead with. People think you want because if they don't know exactly they're trying to to put on of course the the best send-off for you that they can so interesting rebecca thank you so much rebecca peach and thanks also to nelly who suggested this for listener week uh just fascinating i do see some more messages uh absolutely wonderful such an interesting and beautiful interview says one your beautiful guest talking about a living funeral is making me cry with a feeling of deep sympathy and it has also

made me think, how wonderful thank you so much for your messages keep them coming in, I'm also asking you about dreams that you you know, decided to give up on, when did it happen? Here's one, I decided to give up on having a third child after? Here's one. I decided to give up

on having a third child after a miscarriage and two ectopic pregnancies and trained to become a teacher. I instead loved to teach and now retired. But isn't that interesting? Just exactly different life events

and how you go about them. Now, to another story. Earlier this month, we heard the experiences of young people who are opting to live at home while they study at university because of the cost of living crisis. And that prompted a listener, Dr. Pam Woolner from Newcastle University, to get in touch to tell us about the research by her colleague, Dr. Sam Shields, into the experiences of working class women going to university. Sam is a senior lecturer in education at Newcastle University and Sam joins me now. Welcome Sam. Hello, thanks for inviting me. Great to have you. We also have the writer Jessica Andrews who was the first in her family to go to university. Welcome Jessica.

Hello, lovely to be here. So Sam let me start with you. Why did you want to research into this area of women's experiences? So I personally was the first person in my family to go to university coming from a working class background. My education was transformative in terms of social mobility so therefore I've always wanted to understand university experiences particularly at that intersection of gender and social class to help ensure that universities were offering the right types of support to students from less advantaged socio-economic backgrounds. And how do you define working class? So in terms of the study that I've done most recently it was partly through self-identification but also through looking at say for example parental occupation based on the

national statistics socio-economic classification and then also parental levels of education. Sorry to interrupt you there Sam but what would that be what would your parents have done or not done if you were to be working class? So there's a whole I guess it depends whether your parents perhaps working in manual occupation and whether that's sort of potentially unskilled as well or whether actually it's more likely to be skilled non-manual professional for example. I understand and that was the area you decided to get into. I want to turn to Jessica for a moment because she has something in common with you. She was also the first person from her family to go to university. What was it like, Jessica, when you got there? I guess it sort of felt like this holy grail before I got there. You know, it was this

big moment that was going to change my life. I grew up in the North East in Sunderland. I went to university in London and it was a real kind of shock to the system. And I think in retrospect, I was struggling so much because I had grown up in a working class community and I'd moved to a completely different world. And at the time, I didn't have the language or the understanding or the knowledge to kind of gauge that the sense of inadequacy I was feeling or kind of these imposter feelings that I had were to do with my class background. And can we drill down into that? I mean, how did it manifest itself, do you think?

I guess, I mean, at university itself, I didn't say a word in seminars for probably the first two years yeah um and I guess kind of you know I was always living in really unstable places I never had enough money um and kind of you you teach yourself or I taught myself to sort of need and want less in order to mask that like I was very ashamed of maybe needing more than my peers because I didn't have the same kind of resources and so I sort of taught myself to need less or I spent a lot of time working hard to kind of hide that fact about me and what happens is you know you're you're 18 it's such a formative time you kind of internalize all of these messages and all of these feelings so rather than being able to see oh that you know there's a class

system here and and this is where I fit into it and there's all of these structural inequalities I kind of took it as oh I'm wrong and I'm different from these people and I don't fit in and it's my fault and you know know, those feelings, they stay with you because you're sort of, you're exposed to them at such an important time in your life. I wonder, will you identify with any of the categories that Sam found? And Sam, your research was qualitative. You conducted in-depth interviews with 20 women and identified four categories of women's experience. I found this fascinating. Shall we go through them briefly?

Yeah, of course. And I hope some of these sort of stories sort of, you know, resonate with other people in terms of their background. So I had a group which I called Horizon Expanders. They were a relatively young group of young people who had a most direct route into higher education. They saw themselves as academically capable, sometimes critical of what they perceived to be low aspirations for themselves from their families. They were often quite preoccupied with financial concerns. They were really open to geographical mobility and had strong graduate career aspirations. My second group were often in their early 20s, so going to university just slightly later than perhaps the typical age.

They were really focused on balancing and maintaining family relationships alongside academic study. And they tended to live at home. We're often thinking about a sort of slower, more cautious route into a graduate career, for example, teaching. They were really quite reluctant to think about geographical mobility because they were so keen to sort of maintain that sort of family connection. My returners were much older, often sort of 30 and over. They'd had sort of earlier experiences which were both positive and negative of education. But they'd often reach sort of critical junctures in their life. And actually that really spurred them on to go to university,

to thinking about improving the quality of their own lives and that of their families in terms of future kind of graduate career aspirations. And my final group are actually a group of middle-class young women. A really quite different experience, so very strong expectations of going to university, which had really been reinforced by their families and their sixth forms. Their families really expected them to engage in geographical mobility, so expected them to leave home.

They also were really expected to work very hard at university and their I don't know whether any of that resonated with you, whether you were kind of feet in two worlds between home and university or whether you were ready to leave home behind and find this whole different world. But I was reading that when you went to university, you also felt you had to change your appearance. Talk to me about that. Yeah, so I think I would definitely fit into the category of horizon expanders, someone who sort of, I kind of like left my community behind,

I suppose in the beginning. And I guess part of that is sort of, you know, I went to university in London and I thought I was reinventing myself in a way, but I still had all of these markers of where I came from. Right. And I guess one of the things was, I think this is where the intersection of like class and gender is particularly interesting would be my appearance, right. And the way that I dress. And I probably had quite a stereotypically regional working class look. I had my kind of fake tan, I had my clipping

hair extensions, I wore a lot of makeup. And very quickly, I started to understand that those kind of signifiers of my class identity, which to me were just normal, and what you did were kind of marking me out as different. And maybe people had sort of prejudices against me because of that or if I wanted to kind of pass within this middle class world I needed to change the way that I looked so I started wearing less makeup I kind of wore different clothes but something that I kind of found about that is it kind of severed me from the women I grew up with in a way you know I would go home and my mum would be like why haven't you got any makeup on I grew up with in a way you know I would go home and my mum would

be like why haven't you got any makeup on you look tired and and it's you know it sounds trivial but no it doesn't it doesn't yeah it symbolizes something wider which is kind of we have a connection based on shared experiences and I have a connection with that place. And suddenly, when I left, and was trying to represent myself differently to fit into this world, kind of unintentionally, the message you're also giving off is like, this world isn't right for me, or something about what you're doing here doesn't fit with me. And you know, that can be hurtful, I think, to both parties. You're changing, right, before their eyes because you've gone to university, I suppose, in a nutshell. Sam, I mean,

what do you think can happen to make the transition easier? There was the expansion of university places and former Prime Minister Tony Blair's target of sending half of young people to university by 2010. So we're quite a way on from that. I mean, is the transition any easier now? I think some universities are perhaps more aware, certainly,

and perhaps are much more understanding of the background of their students. I think there are a number of things that we can do. I think often, particularly for students from working class backgrounds, often making friends can be quite difficult, partly, I think, because of some of the issues that Jess outlines. But also, for example, if they are commuting, obviously, there are some real issues there in terms of just being on campus and being available for social activities so I think things like our widening participation summer schools which obviously give students the opportunity to go to university you know before the start of the term and they get to meet fellow students from from similar backgrounds they also get to meet academic

staff they get to understand a little bit more around the cultural expectations of what it is to be at university. That can make a huge difference in terms of having the confidence to settle in to university. And then I think it's also just thinking quite carefully about other things. So, for example, often working class students, you know, they recognise that social events are a great way to make friends, often because perhaps they have caring responsibilities or paid employment, you know, they don't really live on campus, that can be a real barrier. So again, it's just thinking a little bit about, you know, tailoring social activities, perhaps around when they're likely to be on campus because of teaching

and also thinking a little bit, not for everyone, but things like group work in the early stages of a programme can actually give people a legitimate reason to talk to each other and help build connections. I understand so that they get to know each other on a more personal level. Jessica, before I let you go, you've not only become a successful writer, you're also an academic lecturing and creative writing at City University London. So looking back, give us one bit of advice for that working class girl, woman who's going to set off, but perhaps has her hair extensions in and her fake tan. And she's thinking, what is it going to be like when I get there? I guess the thing that has been most transformative for me is finding the language to understand who I am, who I was, what I was going through. And, you know, I found that language kind of through being a writer, but also through being a reader. And I guess what education gave me was like this access to art and culture and literature

and, you know, everyone should have a chance to have access to those things. And it's not about education being a transaction where you just get a job at the end of it. It's about kind of helping you to understand yourself and your position in the world. So I guess the thing that I would say to that person is that, you know, she was just as deserving as being there of anyone else. But it's taken me a long time maybe to unravel those feelings and articulate that. And it's the confidence, isn't it? It's the confidence as well to be sure of yourself. Jessica, Sam, so interesting.

Thank you so much for spending some time with us. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch on that topic. Julia Didge says, even though I'm 56 years old now, it's comforting to hear the university feature. As a working class black woman I had so many negative experiences that I didn't understand. It's interesting that the same problems

and experiences are still prevalent and it's good to hear that there's study in this area. Now let's move on to something else from a listener. If I say Georgiana Cavendish, Duchess of Devonshire,

do you know who I'm speaking about? You might have seen the film The Duchess with Keira Knightley as Georgiana, recounting the romantic relationships in her life. Or perhaps you know her as an influential woman in history

who changed the British political landscape of the late 18th century. Well, one of our listeners got in touch to tell her that his daughter had discovered a previously unknown poem of Georgiana's and that we should also

find out more about it and her. So that is what we're doing. B.B. Cox O'Brien, who is heading off in October to do a PhD at Oxford University in 17th century women's poetry manuscripts, found the poem. It was her dad who got in touch with us. And Dr Amanda Foreman is a historian who specialises in Georgiana, Duchess of Devonshire.

And I got to speak to both of them a little earlier. Bibi started by explaining how she discovered the poem while going through the archives at Chatsworth's house on a university placement. I found one of the items was a folder with all handwritten poems, manuscript poems by her. And the second poem in the folder was a poem called To Myself. And when you're working in archives, you sort of get used to reading things very quickly and transcribing them and trying to make the most out of the time

you have in there. But when I read it, I immediately stopped what I was doing and just enjoyed the poem and just really loved what I was reading it felt so personal and intimate to her and like unlike anything else I'd read written by her it felt like she was really leaping out of the page and talking to me um and yeah and then from there it just sort of became a slight love affair obsession with her and with her writing. Well, could I ask you to read a few lines off the poem to give our listeners more of an understanding? Yes. So I'll read a bit from the beginning, which I think really shows the essence of the poem.

Tell me myself, and if thou canst tell true, what are thy merits and thy failings too? Art thou, as some no doubt will think they know, an idle being, merely formed for show, a trifling toy, the plaything of the day, to flutter for a while, then fade away, and yield the palm with a reluctant sigh, whilst newer charms engage each gazer's eye? Say, does thy soul contract its blunted rays to live for admiration and for praise. So does thy bliss consist in being told a flattering tale worn out because tis old. Thank you so much for that. Well, let me turn to you, Amanda. How significant do you think Bibi's discovery is?

Oh, I think it's incredibly significant for several reasons. I mean, the first is that it's a reminder that we never know absolutely everything about somebody. There's always more to find out. There's always more to flesh out. No one is complete. And it just goes to show that with Georgiana herself, there's much more that we can discover about her. And I hope that Bibi goes on to continue to research Georgiana so we know the full panoply of this incredible woman's talents.

Well, tell us a little bit more about why she was so remarkable. So Georgiana is known to us now as one of the great 18th century women because she was both a politician as well as being a poet, a collector of rocks, such as an amateur geologist. She was the empress of fashion. She was the doyen of the Whig party. So she was in charge of 18th century taste, let alone 18th century politics. And we tend to underestimate the power of women because we only think of politics in terms of speeches on the floor of the House of Commons,

not realising that how 18th century politics works was it was very much a family affair, it was very much a business. And she was one of the greatest political businesswomen of her age. So that's why we know about what she did. And then, of course, she had a very long affair with her husband's mistress, who was also her friend, Lady Elizabeth Foster. So her private life has always fascinated people.

She ended up having not just a long affair with Bess, but also with Charles Grey, who later became prime minister of the Reform Bill. So there's a lot going on. And then the third thing about Georgiana is that she is one of the most present and unmediated individuals that you will ever come across. This is a woman who, because she was so talented, at the same time felt so thwarted in her life, she became a drug addict, a bulimic, a gambling addict. She was tortured in her life. And that's what you can see in this poem that she wrote when

she was only 18. And it's all in her letters and in her writing. Victorian letters are very full of verbiage, they're full of words, whereas Georgiana thought and wrote as she thought. And that is incredible to see somebody struggling with all these problems, and ultimately in her own life, overcoming them. And it sounds like so many things that we think of as modern day illnesses as well. But Bibi, going back to you, picking up on a point that Amanda made there,

because you're going on to do a PhD in 17th century women's manuscripts. What about the way that Georgiana writes? Is it different to others that you see? I think it's incredibly different. I think the intersection of her brilliant public life and her intellect being intersected with this wonderful sense of poetic voice, it really is rare to find. And I think also the context of what she went on to do after this there's a sense of ambition in the poem that you can tell she's yearning for more and also the sense of she really does have a great grasp of metaphor and imagery

um you know later on in the poem she talks about the dichotomy between flowing streams and sturdy trees and it really creates this beautiful image in your mind of a woman who's really struggling to come to terms with these two parts of herself. She's got something that's pulling her one way, these vices that maybe she feels they're her weaknesses. But she's also got this wonderful sense of ambition and intellect. And you can really see that struggle in this poem. I think it just makes it so beautiful. As some Amanda might know, you were involved in the film The Duchess and it was based on your book.

How much do you think that depiction shifted perceptions of Georgiana? I think the film was very helpful in that it laid the groundwork for a much fuller picture of Georgiana. But traditionally, when we depict women, we generally depict them as avatars for male ambition. So even in a film about Georgiana,

what we are also invited to focus on is Charles Grey, her lover, and how he feels. And sometimes it almost comes across as if her real importance is that she makes a man fall in love with her, a man who's going to go on to do great things. And that is how our perspective is conditioned to look. And Georgiana, of course, is one of those women who achieves so much more. And in the last 25 years, that has come through more and more, that we need to redefine what we think of as power, for example. We need to redefine what we think of as action.

If we just think of action as what men do, then you're never going to see what women achieve. So the film was important because it got that dialogue going, but we still have a long way to go. And Bibi, I understand that you have some questions for amanda uh yeah definitely um obviously when i was doing this work and researching georgiana your biography was a huge influence and i suppose i wanted to ask a little bit about georgiana's sense of privacy in her world obviously she was a very public figure she lived in a very public family what was her sense of privacy in her world? Obviously, she was a very public figure. She lived in a very public family. What was her sense of privacy and self-reflection?

How often did she get to really do that? Well, it's so interesting that you put it that way because it's a public world in the sense that these people are never alone. So even when they're in private, they're surrounded by servants at all times, except when they're asleep. And even then, many people would actually sleep with their servants in bed.

It was a normal thing to do, to have your maid in bed with you. It kept you both warm for a start. So the concept of privacy is slightly different. But then you ask about self-reflection. And she often liked to have her self-reflection reflecting off somebody else, as it were, whether it was with her sister or with her mother, with Bess or with one of her friends who died, Mary Graham. And then the problem is that because she was such a sensitive soul, when she reflected with them, her mother could crush her. And so there's a letter that you

obviously know about where she wrote to her mother saying, you know, people often take me for a fool. And sometimes I kind of go along with it, even though inside I'm kind of laughing and thinking you think I'm a fool, but I'm not really. I know that you think you're playing me, but I'm not. I'm playing you back. And Jordaine went on to say, it's because I just can't bear to say no to people. I'm such a people pleaser. What should I do? So it's a kind of intense self-reflection. And Lady Spencer, her mother went back and said, see, it shows you're a very weak character. Ouch. And again, so modern. I mean, I can't tell you the amount of Instagram reels and whatnot that I've seen or TikTok videos about don't be a people pleaser. But there we have Georgiana struggling with some of those same issues. Bibi, do you think your obsession with Georgiana is going to continue?

It's been going on for a while already, and I think it will go on for a while longer, that's for sure. I hope so. I really hope so. I hope that you bring out an edition of her poetry. I can't wait to see what you do next. Amanda, why is it important that people like Georgiana are remembered, are researched, are brought to the fore? Because our identity as human beings is based on who we are and who we are is also based on where we've come from and what has made us and what has shaped us. And for women not to have their history, not to have their identity founded on the past and what women women done in the past will shape our present as it does and it shapes who we are and who we think we are and what we can do and that is why it is

absolutely vital that we have access to the same history that men have access to and to understand that it isn't necessarily hidden or less than or simply influencing, that it has the same doing, being, thinking, achieving that any other sex and gender has. And that is why it's important. Amanda Foreman there. And you also heard B.B. Cox O'Brien talking to me about the discovery of a new poem by Georgiana, Duchess of Devonshire.

What an amazing range of ideas that you are bringing to us for Listener Week. Thank you for every single one of them. Now, let us turn to another. We are often told not to give up on our dreams, but what if they're causing unhappiness, stress or even ill health? Well, one listener, Monica, emailed in to let us know that now in her 70s, she has given up a lifelong dream of becoming a novelist. And instead of that causing pain or grief, she has described it as liberating. And to say I am not a writer is now her favourite phrase. And I'm pleased to say I'm joined by Monica and also by Chartered Psychologist Catherine Hallisey. Hi, Monica. Welcome.

Good morning. Good morning and good morning, Catherine. Good morning. Now, let me start with you, Monica. What attracted you to being a novelist? I've always been interested in the imagination, in living in the world of the imagination. And when a teacher told me when I was quite young that I could be a writer, it stuck.

I absolutely wanted to. I loved everything about it. I loved reading. I loved hearing about people's lives. I loved dealing with people's lives, telling people about my life. It was all wonderful. And I was so joyous at the thought,

this is how I could make a living and making up stories. And you did write you became you did some freelance writing you published a non-fiction book on the menopause but you haven't managed the novel. Tell me how much did writing a novel take over your life or consume you, if that's the correct word? It was massive. For a while, I had so many ideas. My daughter's wild. I'd be thinking of one book and the next day be thinking of another. And the thing is, I got hold of agents. I've never found it hard to find an agent. And I once had lunch with an agent

to invite him for lunch and he said tell me in one minute what this novel's about and 15 minutes later his eyes were glazing over and I was still talking and I couldn't bring it to an end I couldn't stop it and I thought this is so embarrassing and it was then I thought I've got to tie my ideas down so I thought to tie that idea down but then I found my head crowded with so many people coming in to tell me that they wanted involvement in my novel that I was all confused again and I thought well I'll start again also it was taking over my life and that every single holiday I was working as a teacher every day I was saying I ought to write I must write you ought to be writing that novel and it was it was ruining it was making me feel ill almost you know I couldn't properly enjoy myself

and did you ever think about just binning it or how long has this been going on about the wanting to be a novelist, would you say? Binning it? Good grief, no. I just wanted to write. It's been going on since I was about 10 or 11. Oh, my goodness. OK, so but you have decided to bin it, right? That phrase, I am not a writer, is one of your favourite phrases now. So what happened? Well, I'm not a novelist. I'm not, I know I'm not a novelist. I can get the beginning and the ending, but it's the middle bit that drives me around the bend. I get so confused.

So I decided to go to shorter stories and possibly some little bits of memoir. But I'm working as a wellbeing practitioner now in a school, which is wonderful because I can engage with children's imagination. I can make them feel better about themselves through the imagination. We make good stories. We listen to sound. So really, this is much more satisfying. And I feel so much healthier. My backache went. My headaches went. Everything starts to smooth out. And this summer, I have thoroughly enjoyed. Of course, that voice hasn't smooth out. And this summer I have thoroughly enjoyed,

of course that voice hasn't been there. And the irony is this summer I have written a short story. There's no pressure, you know, I haven't got that constant. Right. So you decided, was there something just very briefly, because I do want to speak to Catherine as well, was there something that was the nudge, that was the pivotal moment that you said, I'm not going to be a novelist anymore? Yeah, well, my agent said, play to your strengths. And he felt they weren't,

they wasn't writing. And so you did. I'm really curious, we're asking listeners as well, what did they give up on? For example, Jill in Staffordshire says, what I've given up on is the hope I would get to experience a big wedding anniversary, because I'm now single, aged 60. But Catherine, let me turn to you. When can we know or should we know or I suppose is it ever possible to know when we should let go of a lifelong dream or ambition? I think this is a really, really important question. We all hear so much, you should always have goals and but we don't hear so much you need to constantly review these goals while they may have been right for you at one point we all grow and change which is why it's so important that we continue to review them that's what I love so much about Monica's story so there was a time when this goal of being a novelist was right for her. But now she has evolved. Now she has these other right for her goals. And it's recognising what are the kinds

of things that can make you try to hold on to a goal. And one of those is the sunk cost fallacy. Now, the sunk cost fallacy is where we think, oh, I've already put so much time into this. I can't give up now. And we see this referred to in business, but I use it a lot in my work. And it's I think it's really about redefining your idea of success. So success isn't holding on to a goal at all costs. It's actually evaluating what is the true cost of this goal? And if I release this goal, what becomes possible? And that's so evident in Monica's story. We hear about all of this openness and spaciousness and opportunity and even creativity has come back because she has let go of a confining goal and has opened herself up to new possibilities.

Goal adjustment capacity, what's that? So this is about our capacity to adjust our goals based on the information that's coming in. Now, the information may be feedback from your editor or your agent, or it may be feedback from your family that you're never available, or it may be feedback from your family that you're never available, or it may be you tuning into yourself saying, what is this costing me? Do I have time in my life for anything else? So it's being able to take in that new information and adjust your goal based on that. And we know that strong goal adjustment capacity is linked to positive mental health, overall well-being. So I actually examine my goals every single week.

Every week? Every week, just very briefly. So I actually have just a document on my computer and I open it and I say, OK, is this still, am I still on track? Is this still the right thing to do or do I need to release some of these tasks? And it's just trying to bring a little bit more flexibility into what you're doing. And that's where this goal adjustment capacity comes from, rather than holding on so tight so that you're not able to see possible opportunities

that may otherwise pass you by. It's fascinating. It's given our listeners, I think, lots of food for thought. Catherine Hallisey, thank you so much. And to Monica for getting in touch and bringing this idea that people can now think about what is it that they need to release to have an even better life. That is it for today. Thank you for your messages.

Tomorrow, we've more listener discussions coming through to us. Here's a couple to let you know the importance of peripheral, not best friends, and the potential medicinal use of psychedelic drugs and how they might impact women differently. Do stay with us for that tomorrow. But I want to read some of your messages that have been coming in.

We've talked about living funerals. Cordelia got in touch. She says, I held a joint 18 to 81st birthday party for my daughter and my dad last spring. My dad had Alzheimer's and I knew this would probably be the last party that he'd be up to attending.

Everyone there had been a close part of both my dad and my daughter's lives. My dad died this February and last year's party was, for me, his living funeral. What a lovely story coming in there. We've also a lot on university. In 1978, I left my West Midland Village council house life and went to Lady Margaret Hall College in Oxford to do PPE.

It was a terrible cultural shock. It shaped my life. And another one. I had to share a room with someone who had been head girl at Rodin. Her friends came from Cheltenham Ladies College and other such places. What on earth do you wear when your parents give a cocktail party, they asked. Thank you so much.

I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Lila, who got in touch on Twitter. Thanks for all your messages, thanks for all your ideas.

We're back again tomorrow and thanks so much for your company. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. From BBC Radio 4, a new fiction podcast. I want you to hold something for me. Hold something. A holiday in Dubai.

The missing Korean telecommunications tycoon was found dead this morning. Takes a deadly turn. A guy you've never seen before offers you 10 grand to look after an envelope and you take it. Tell nobody, not even your girlfriend, okay? There's something I need to tell you. It'll save a lot of lives if you help us. This is all a terrible mistake. We just want to go home. We don't want to. Shut up! Available

now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.