Woman's Hour - Listener Week: MND and women, Not being a granny, Studying later in life

Episode Date: August 6, 2025

Motor Neurone Disease is a condition that affects nerves found in the brain and spinal cord which tell our muscles what to do. The disease is life shortening and there is no cure. One listener, Diana Keys, was diagnosed in May 2023. She tells us about her experience and asks why does representation of MND in the media skew so heavily towards men? Diana is joined by Dame Pamela Shaw, an academic neurologist and world-leading researcher in MND.Listener Sally Ruffles describes herself as a 68 year old woman with one daughter and no grandchildren. She got in touch with Woman's Hour for Listener Week  to say: "There’s this common assumption that having grandchildren is always a wonderful thing. But nobody really stops to think that not having them might also be okay—or even a positive thing for some people."  She joins Nuala with her daughter Hannah, who persuaded her mother to write to Woman's Hour, to discuss why it can be difficult to talk about not being a grandparent.  We talk to women living full time on the UK’s waterways. Charlotte Ashman is an artist and print maker and Jo Bell is a writer and former UK Canal Laureate. They tell us about their lives, their work and the pros and cons of narrowboat living.Have you ever thought about going back to school? Recent graduates Sue Goldsmith & Rahat Ismail both returned to studying later in life. They join Nuala to discuss what took them back to education and the value of lifelong learning.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Ever feel like car shopping is designed to make your second guess yourself? Is this a good price? Am I making the right choice? With car gurus, you don't have to wonder. They have hundreds of thousands of cars from top-rated dealers and advanced search tools, deal ratings and price history. So you know a great deal when you see one. That's cairg-g-U-R-U-S.ca.cagurus.ca.cagurus.ca.ca.

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Newell McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, and welcome to Listener Week on Woman's Hour. This is the week where your ideas create the program. Thanks so much to all of you who got in touch. In a moment, we'll meet Diana, who is MND, Motor Neuron Disease, and wants to raise awareness of women that are diagnosed with it. Also, Woman's Hour,

has discussed women not becoming mothers. But what about not becoming a grandmother? Our listener, Sally, wants to explore the societal expectations that she has encountered on that front. I'm sure many of you will have thoughts on this. If your children are not able to have children or have chosen not to, please get in touch. Or indeed, if you've not had children yourself

and so will not become a grandmother, I'd also like to hear your perspective. You can text the program. The number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, use the number 0-3-700-100-444.

Sally and her daughter, Hannah, will both be with us. We're also going to connect this hour with women who live on narrow boats and hear about what our listener, Dina, called the challenges and delights for women of the waterways. And we'll be talking about studying in later life. We've two remarkable women who headed back at their 50s and 70s and boat graduated with firsts.

So I'm looking forward to meeting Sue and Rahat and hearing about their motivation. They'll also be in the Woman's Hour studio. But let me begin because several listeners wrote to Women's Hour to share their experience of being diagnosed or caring for a woman who has with motor neuron disease. Motor neuron disease, you might also know it as MND, is a condition that causes muscles to weaken and they can deteriorate quite quickly. the condition is usually life shortening and there is no cure. Women make up 40% of those affected, which prompted one listener, Diana Keyes, to write in. And she said, Marcus Stewart, Duddy Ware, Rob Burrow, Stephen Hawking, Stephen Darby,

all men who have done so much to raise awareness and funds for motor neuron disease. However, following my own diagnosis in May 2023 and witnessing several people's surprise that I had got it, it got me wondering why the only people we hear and see in the media are male. Well, I'm delighted to say that Diana joins me now, as does Dame Pamela Shaw, director of the Sheffield Institute for Translational Euroscience and World Leading Researcher into MND. Great to have both of you with us.

Diana, thanks so much for getting in touch. You were diagnosed, I understand, in 2023. Can you bring us back to that moment? Yeah, I had been suffering quite. a lot of symptoms for nearly 18 months get falling over and my balance was bad. My speech started being stilted. I went to my GP and then she referred me to the local, neurology team and they first thought that might be due to stress because I've recently been divorced.

I sort of knew that wasn't what it was because I kept getting muscle twitches and biting my tongue for no reason. And so I persevered and in May 23, they diagnosed motor neurone disease after giving me some muscle nerve tests. it was obviously horrendous because although I had thought that that's what it might be, you never ever want to think, accept that's what it is. So it was a terrible shock. And I then sort of went into admin mode, found out as much as I could about how my life would change and the Motinurin Disease Association was a great place to start,

and I found lots of support. But really, I want to highlight, and you've been a mum and you're a grandma, and you've cared for your family, you've done everything, cooking, washing, you know, shopping, holidays, bookings. And I worked full-time as a primary school administrator. What you lose is your purpose. And I really struggled with not having a purpose.

So I found a group on Facebook called M&D Queens, and it was so lovely. It was just for women. And lots of issues we can talk about that don't sort of exclude. men because it's awful for anyone but there are certain things that you know women have to deal with when they lose the use of their limbs and voice that men don't have to do so I really felt it was I wanted to join the voice really yeah yeah

And you put it across, I mean, reading your story, and I'm so sorry that you got that diagnosis. And, you know, I really do thank you for coming and raising awareness in the way that you are. And I think specifically, I suppose some of those things that were personal to you that were very important and that gave you purpose, that caring, nurturing role that you had in your family, you know, it may resonate with money. I'm going to bring in Dame Pamela Shaw here as well. It's quite something to hear that experience and I know it's something that you are deeply immersed in with the patients that you have. Yes, indeed, indeed.

Very nice to meet you, Diana, and I'm so sorry that you're having to cope with this cruel illness. Thank you. And with this, You know, Diana brought up the point as well that it is often that it's men's faces that we see connected with this particular disease. I think I very much brought it into sharp relief for me, Diana,

when we read your story and I was like, aha, that's right. Why is that, do you think? So I guess the first thing is that M&D is more common in men than women. So three men get it for every person. two ladies, is more common in men. And I think that some of the prominent men that Diana has mentioned,

who are often famous elite sportsmen or somebody like Stephen Hawking, a very well-known physicist, I guess they have often been very courageous in projecting their illness and making the general public more aware of the condition. But I guess from the media point of view, those people are media attractive, I suppose. You know, elite sports people and so on. It's a real tragedy when somebody so powerful with their muscle strength develops this disease. So I think that's why that those people have just put themselves forward and raised awareness. But I'm very glad that Diana is raising awareness in this program and through her M&D Queen's group, which is nice to hear about.

Yeah, it's a lovely term. Diana, coming back to you, but you know, I was struck also by in your email that people were surprised that you had got. like as a woman? Yes, absolutely. I think for the reasons Pamela was saying that a lot of the media attention is on sportsmen. So at first I made some jokes about having to give up rugby. But, yeah, it was a real surprise to people.

And I found that people didn't really understand how debilitating it is. Obviously, some people's progression is fast. Mine is quite slow, which I'm grateful for. but nevertheless it still affects the ripples are huge in families and friends and I had to give up work which was I loved my job. What did you do, Diane? I was a primary school administrator and it's the best job in the world, apart from the summer holiday.

But I'd done that for 25 years. So it was finding another definition of me that was a struggle. but I think my sort of association with the M&D association, sorry. Take your time. It's given me that purpose. And, yeah, I'm curious also about another aspect coming back to, you know, you said you were the carer and the nurturer. how easy or difficult was it to accept having to be cared for

because obviously there are physical abilities that you will not have at certain points and this is the cruel part I think it's a good word that Pamela uses when she speaks about this disease yes it's huge not to be able to put your own deodorant on and wash your hair you know, it's just horrible when you're used to

bathing your grandchildren and the personal care is, I mean, some of us that have had babies, obviously you lose a lot of embarrassment then but it's still something that I find really hard to accept even people coming to help

clean my house and do my shopping and not being able to put a microwave meal in the microwave is just I can't explain really how hard it is I think you're explaining it really really well Diana thank you Is there a difference, Pamela, in the symptoms between men and women?

Not a huge difference. I would say the only difference that's noted is that in ladies, in women that get this condition, particularly older women who get it, then it more often starts with the speech muscles, so-called bulber onset. But otherwise, you know, the symptoms are very similar between the two genders. You know, as I mentioned, Diana is explaining it so beautifully. I mean, devastatingly beautiful, really, on what it is like to live with it. But of course, she also describes, you know, that fear that there is with the diagnosis.

What advice would you give to anyone who has been diagnosed or indeed their people around them, their loved ones? who will also be coming to terms with a diagnosis? I think it's always a very difficult thing. I have had to explain the diagnosis to several thousand people and families, and I still dread doing it. It's very difficult to convey that diagnosis after all the tests have been done. what we try and do in our MND clinic in Sheffield is be honest with people, but keep hope alive. You know, there is hope, I think.

We haven't got powerful neuroprotective treatments at the moment, but we're working hard on it all around the world. And I think the pharmaceutical industry, which did not use to be. interested in M&D, I think they thought the market size was too small. They're now very interested because they can see of all the so-called neurodegenerative conditions, the M&D is tractable. We've got treatments now for a subtype of M&D caused by a change in the SOD1 Sodwan gene, and we've got treatments for a childhood form of motor neurone disease called spinal muscular atrophy. So they're real trailblazers. And what would they do? What would, sorry, what would they do for those particular medicines or treatments? What might they do? So Topherson,

which is the treatment for 2% of patients with M&D have a change in this, SOD1 gene, and Toferson, which has to be given via a lumbar puncture into the spinal fluid, lowers the level of the SOD1 protein and really slows down the disease course substantially. And some patients report improved muscle strength with that treatment. So it's a real breakthrough, not yet approved by NICE in the UK, but approved by the FDA in the US and the EMA, the European Medicines Agency. So I see that as a real trailblazer of hope for the future.

And is that, because you're so steeped in it, is that where the focus is at the moment to try and slow the progression as opposed to, and I put this in inverted commas, a cure? We would all love to develop a cure. But the process by which the motor neurons get injured and die is very complicated. At least 12 different things go wrong. So I don't think there's going to be a sudden overnight cure,

but I think there will be step-by-step progress in slowing down the disease course and maybe even preventing it from happening. So people with an SOD1 mutation or change in that gene are being monitored when they're fit and well to intervene with the therapy at the earliest possible stage. Would that be when there is a family history, a known genetic link? Yes.

So people who know that that gene has caused M&D within a family, the children of that person will have a 50% chance of developing. having the faulty gene and some of those people choose to have gene testing done even when they're fit and well. I understand. Diana, back to you.

Listen, we wish you all the best with your health and that it may continue to be a very, very slow progression but I'm just wondering what you think when you listen to Dame Pamela Shaw. I think there's so much money raised for the MNDA. And I feel personally that maybe there aren't enough people at any one time suffering.

So the drug companies don't feel it's big. enough market to develop, which is tragic really when you think of the amount of money raised a year for this awful disease. However, the M&A do help me live my life more positively by helping with grants and things. So please keep raising money because it really gives us hope that something will come out of all this research one day. Diana, thank you so much for coming on the program and for sharing your story. Also, Dame Pamela Shaw, who's director of the Sheffield Institute, for translational neuroscience and is a world-leading researcher into MND. We'll have to catch up with you again, Diana.

Thanks so much for bringing this to our listeners' attention. Thanks. Bye. Here's the question. This is, it makes me so angry that women's symptoms are continuously ignored and women told it's their mental health, when will this misogyny stop sending love to Diana, an inspirational woman. Now, I want to move on to grandchildren. I was calling for your thoughts on it at the beginning of the program.

Lots of you have already got in touch about not becoming a grandmother. Here's a quote. A grandparent has silver in their hair and gold in their heart. And we're kind of used to that, aren't we, that kind of sentimental quote about grandparents, maybe a little bit schmaltzy. I wonder what you think about that. If you are a grandparent, but we're kind of used to some of that within. society. But the woman's hour listener, Sally Ruffles, suggested our next discussion on a

different angle. The expectations about being a grandparent that she wants to challenge. She says there is a common assumption that having grandchildren is always a wonderful thing. But nobody really stops to think that not having them might be also okay, maybe even a positive thing for some people. Well, Sally joins me now with her daughter Hannah, who encouraged her mother to contact woman's error. Hello, Sally. Hello, Hannah. Hello. Hi. Hi. Great to have both of you with us. You're both joining us in the same room. That's great. Sally, you describe yourself as a 68-year-old woman with one daughter and no grandchildren. So tell me more about why you wanted to discuss not having grandchildren on this

program. Okay. Well, I think, you know, we're sort of almost conditioned that becoming a grandparent will be part of the natural order of things, you know, we grow up, we get married, we have children, and then eventually we will have grandchildren. And probably I was no exception to that. I thought that would probably be the course of my life as well. And it hasn't turned out like that, as life often doesn't. I have found increasingly over the years that if you're not a grandmother or a grandparent, suddenly the conversation stops. People love talking about their grandchildren, of course they do, and sharing photographs and stories and everything. But if you can't reciprocate, the conversation suddenly ends because you can't, you can't join in. And sometimes

it feels as though you're not part of the club, if you like. It's a bit of an exclusive club that you can't, can't be a member of. Also, you know, I've read on more than one occasion, how wonderful it is to look into the eyes of your newborn grandchild for the first time. That's never going to happen to me

and to a lot of people. Do you feel, I think you're saying you don't feel that people are sensitive to the fact that you're not a grandmother or may not become a grandmother is kind of a given? Maybe they just don't think about it.

Maybe they just don't think about it, you know, and perhaps I wouldn't have done if I'd have become a grandparent as well. well, which is often the way, you know. But yeah, I sometimes I have come across people of engaging in conversation with them. They do talk about their grandchildren, obviously. And if I say, I haven't got grandchildren, and then I go on to say, my daughter doesn't actually want to have any children, I have found suddenly the conversation stops. And we quickly move on to something else. Now, that may be uncomfortable.

for people. I don't know. They don't know what to say. But it leaves me feeling a bit, well, hang on a minute. You know, what's the problem here? Is the problem with me? Is it with my daughter's choices? And so on. I mean, I've always said, you know, Hannah was not put on this earth to provide me with grandchildren. Her life is, and what she chooses to do with her life is far more important to me and I certainly don't spend my time feeling a victim or you know

crying into my coffee or whatever I get on with my life and there are many positives and I just feel that in 2025 we should be able to perhaps have more of a conversation around our children's choices

or you know there's an alternative I understand and obviously you've struck a because I have a lot of comments that are coming in and I'm going to read some of them in just a moment. But you also wrote in your email, you're very honest about being sad, from time to time about what might have been. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Yes, well, in my head, I always thought that I would enjoy being a grandmother because perhaps I'd have more time to spend with my grandchildren than perhaps I did with my daughter because, you know, it was busy, I was working, I had other responsibilities.

So I thought, oh yes, this would be great, I'll be able to do the cooking perhaps I didn't do with her, the arts and crafts, taking them out and about, just being interested, being, you know, someone else that they could talk to as they got older and so on. So, yeah, they're the sadnesses that I know that I won't experience. I'm interested in the world. I'm interested in young people and children. and I don't want to lose touch. You know, when you don't have direct involvement, it is quite easy, obviously. So I do try to keep myself informed

with everything that's going on because that won't be my personal experience. I have to come to Hannah here. I'm wondering how did you feel when you saw what she had written? And you did suggest that she contact Women's Hour. I did, I did, yes. I encouraged her to write in,

but it's something we talked about last year. and in fact that she, I didn't know she'd written in until she'd pressed send and so I asked her to forward the email and I think it was probably the first, so as as mum said, she's always, her line has always been, you weren't put on this earth to provide me with grandchildren. So we've always had quite an honest discussion about it. I think probably when I read her email and she covered quite a lot of points, she was quite honest about perhaps you know what she was missing out on um and so seeing that in black and white i don't think that did me any harm i think it made me recognize that possibly sometimes she's protected me from that

she you know she perhaps hasn't been quite as open in discussions about that other side because she has been so conscious that she doesn't want me to feel a sense of obligation or guilt that i haven't been able to provide that um but i'm i'm pleased that we can have we can have that honesty with each other because she can say that without it having, making me feel guilty or responsible. Or pressure. Is exactly that she's allowed to feel like that and this is a situation. How lovely to hear that open conversation. Shall we read some of the comments that have come in? Okay. Let me see. This is our daughter is a career high flyer. She does not and has never wanted children. I'm quite often asked if I have any grandchildren from

my own point of view, it's her life and I'm happy with her choice. My husband is sad about it, but has never said so to her. It's her life. Her choice will support her with or without grandchildren. Another, I never wanted grandchildren or to be a granny. Having children is a decision which should be left to individual couples. Parents do not have the right to pressure their children into turning into grandparents. That said, I have two lovely grandchildren. Another, I have two daughters, 38 and 33, both in relationships, neither with children. It doesn't worry. me one bit that I'm not a grandmother. I don't feel I'm missing out in anything. In fact, I think

this is a very difficult world in which it's a rear child, but if grandchildren did come along, I may feel different. I suppose there seems to be with everything I'm hearing, a kind of a road not travelled or an ambivalence in some

ways, but I think also for you, Sally, there's a lot of people that understand what you're saying. Yeah, yes, which is lovely to hear, actually. Because, I mean, I do have a couple of friends without grandchildren, actually, but most of my friends and peer group do have grandchildren.

Yeah, so it's really nice to hear other people's views and experiences. I think also, an 844-8-4-4, if you want to get in touch, of course there will be, Hannah, you've decided not to have children. You will also not become a grandmother. Yeah, precisely. Yes, and that's actually, I think. think this has actually made me think about that because obviously I do have the similar conversation around my own peers about choosing not to have children. So it's given me

advance warning that this might be something that I experience again later in life. I think that that's kind of hitting the nail on the head because if you haven't had children and people ask about children, lots of our listeners, this will resonate with. If the answer is no, it can then get a little bit awkward, perhaps in the way that Sally was describing, in the same way for grandmothers. Yeah. And I think, I mean, my experience sometimes with the conversation I can have about my choices, perhaps if I'm talking to someone who's made the choice to have children, that my choice not to have them may suggest that I think I'm choosing a better path, or they, you know, sometimes just create a little bit of each person thinks that they've got it right, if

you like, their decision. And I think maybe this is also something in my mum's experience as a grandparent as well, or not being a grandparent. It's a sort of questioning about making a different choice. What are, let us turn to what you can see, because you've talked about what you would have liked perhaps if you were a grandmother, you know, some of those aspects of it. What about not being a grandmother, Sally, and what some of the benefits of that can be? Right. Well, I have to be honest. I mean, you know, so many of my friends do a lot of child care to help their children out with work commitments and so on. And so that takes up a lot of their week, which I know they do willingly and love it, but I don't have to do that.

I have freedom and I enjoy it, you know, I'll be quite honest with that, that I'm not committed in that way. So that, that for me is very much a positive. Yeah, that's probably, that probably is the main thing. Yeah, I think, I think something I've probably said is that, you know, we're very close and perhaps that our relationship as I've got older we've been able to continue investing in our relationship because because I haven't chosen to have children which obviously is a distraction and takes up a lot of time we actually get to spend we still get to spend quality time together I'm in my early 40s now which maybe if I'd chosen to have a family that wouldn't be available to us so I I can't cherish that we have that opportunity perhaps a different dynamic here's one

actually related to that. Some women don't want to be grandmothers. Some friends have found that their moms don't want to help with their kids, but society tells us all grandparents will want to. That's another discussion. This lady who got in touch said she made a documentary about not having children and found this to be a huge issue postpartum, kind of that, what would I say, unbalanced dynamic, perhaps between what's expected of parents and grandparents. One more. My son always said he was never going to have kids and that was okay with me. It was never my ambition to be a grandmother. Then he went travelling and on his travels he fell in love with a girl who wanted children. I now have two grandchildren. Morrill, never say never or you can't escape

your fate. Another one. I don't have children or grandchildren and I've gone through the conversation stopper twice. First I would say I haven't got children and now when I say no grandchildren, men don't stop talking, just women or at least most. What about that? That's very interesting actually because my husband doesn't come across this at all, you know, with his peer group. He's obviously got friends who've got grandchildren and so on, but they don't waste time really talking about, you know, the intricacies of that, if you like, they either got them or they haven't and then they go on and finish their game of golf or whatever. So that does seem to be the case. Interesting. You know, I did also see when you wrote to us, you talked about legacy, which is a really interesting thing. We've spoken about this before with people who have decided not to have children. What a legacy might be. Are you thinking about that?

Yeah. So, I mean, I'm interested in history and family stories and so on. And obviously my stories and Hannah's father died 15 years ago. So his stories as well will end with her. And that's another interesting point, actually, because there's a lot out there about memoir writing and how good it is for older people to put their stories down for their grandchildren. Well, again, if you haven't got grandchildren, who are you doing it for? And I still think maybe our stories have got some value somewhere. So it's finding a way of preserving that, but who wants them? And that's quite a difficult question. I'm sure no one can really answer it. But so it's an interesting, that is an interesting thought.

Hannah's nodding along there. Listen, you've given us loads of food for thought. And you have shared some of your story right here on Women's Hour. There's one for the legacy books. People continue to get in touch. So obviously a lot of people, the thought or the conversation resonating with a lot of people that are listening right now. Let me thank Sally Ruffles for getting in touch. and also her daughter, Hannah, for coming along.

It's been lovely to speak to you both. Thank you for having us. Thank you. Thank you. And thanks to all of you for all the ideas that you've sent to us. It has been so great to hear them and also to meet some of you as your ideas come to life on air. So let's see.

From large bus while driving, stand-up comedy in later life, we had a lively conversation on testosterone. They're just some of the topics you've brought to the program. We also have the poet Amy Williams, a lot of you liking Amy. She's up on our social. media feeds as well. But maybe you're a performer.

We do have a beautiful studio right here around me that has had some illustrious guests come through. Maybe it should be you next. Well, if you're listening and you think you have the item that we really should do before the weekends,

now is your chance. 84844 is the text number on social media at BBC Woman's Hour or indeed email us through our website. Just put listener week in the subject line. Now, if you've gone for a stroll, canal side, you might be struck by all those docked, colourful narrowboats

and I always wonder what would it be like to live on one? Well our listener, Dina, who lives on the canal, got in touch for listener week and she said, I'd love to hear of waterways women on Woman's Hour. Almost a tongue twister there. She said our challenges and delights are many similar

and also very different to those women in bricks and mortar or in vans. Dina suggested that we speak to the canal artist Charlotte Ashman, whose boat is currently in Warwick and who's with me on the line now. We also have Joe Bell in Macclesfield, a former UK Canal laureate. So that's a role that uses art

to attract more visitors to the canals. Also the author of a new boat book. A new book boater, a life on England's waterways. Oh, and as I see Joe on my screen, she is wearing the t-shirt as well. That says boater on it. Well, wonderful to have both of you with us.

I'm going to keep saying both, both. Charlotte, let me begin with you. Why are you living on a canal? Good morning. I didn't really intentionally want to move onto the canal. It was more of a collision of circumstance and timing. The canals are somewhere that I've always felt were my safe space. I grew up in a village next door to the canal and I take myself off down there for some quiet times to watch the birds and be near the water really.

But when I was young, there weren't really any boats on the canal because brake traffic had stopped. And leisure cruising wasn't really a huge thing at that time. So although I knew the canals and felt safe there, I didn't really have any knowledge of a boat, but it was a way that I could afford to live in the countryside, surrounded by nature, and in my own home, which not many people can afford to do at the moment. Let me turn to Joe. How long have you been living on a boat? Good morning. I've been on a boat now for 23 years and I came in a very different way to Charlotte. I was formerly an archaeologist and I got a job working for then British Waterways conserving a fleet of 10 historic narrow boats on the principle that they were like listed buildings. And I realised the more time I spent with them that boats are not like listed buildings. They only have meaning if they're in the water and move.

with people on them. And then I got a boyfriend who had a historic boat. I fell in love, not particularly with the man, but with the boat. So I got rid of the man, acquired a boat, and lived happily ever after. You're still with the boat? Yes, different boat.

Yes. Tell me about your boat now. Well, my boat now is a modern boat, which I had built for me called Stoic, or Saint-Oyke, as passes by, sometimes call it. But previously I was very involved I was very involved with historic boats rather like the ones that Charlotte has lived on. So the fleet of 10 boats, which mostly moved in pairs around the canals. So historically, cargo carrying the motor and butty.

So the motor has an engine. The butty is like an enormous trailer behind it. And that means you can carry 40 tonnes of cargo with one small engine. But my boat now is a modern liverboard boat. with all mod cons, washing machine, cooker, all of the things that you would expect in a house, but also with a chemical toilet and a few additions that you might not be familiar with.

But why, I suppose, might be the question, Joe. Like, if it is all the mod cons that you have and very like a house, why not a house? Thank you for articulating the question that so many people don't ask, but why? in my case because to be obvious you are always by water and that is a very a very great thing if I have a bad day at work I've had a bad day at work but I'm still coming home to a boat and not a house and that means something to me and for me as I think for many boaters

nowadays it was an advantage to not own so much stuff you know the more stuff you own the more you have to dust, which as my mother would tell you is not one of my favourite activities, the more you have to maintain it, the more you have to ensure it, the more in short you have to think about it. And I really enjoy the challenge of not owning a lot. It's a kind of one-in, one-out policy. But the other great advantage of boat living, and I'm not here to promote it, it's not for anyone, for everyone, but the great advantage for me is that, as I say in the book, adventure is not a question of scale. You can move three or four miles down the canal on your boat

and you're in a slightly different place. You're in the parish of a different blackbird. You have slightly different buildings around you. You have a new local. You have new shops to explore and perhaps a new town to be a resident of just as much as you were a resident of the last one. And so although you're an...

your adventure is a small scale one, and perhaps you never move more than 30 miles around, you know that particular landscape intimately, and you interact with it much, much more than a house dweller does. So interesting, so you're really that wanderer. Charlotte, I need to ask you about your boat because it's a floating studio and gallery as well. It is indeed, yes.

It's a historic boat, like the boats that you. was talking about. It's about as big as you can get on the Grand Union Canal, so it's 71 foot six long. In the coal hold, I put my art studio and gallery, which has its own problems. So I work primarily with print, which is very paper-based. And because I've left my boat as was, so it's still a traditional coal boat, it's not particularly well insulated. And during the winter we get a little bit of damp in there which paper obviously doesn't like very much. So I've had to be

quite good with problem solving in that way. Creative. Resourceful. Resilient. Indeed. And we're good. And you know, if people want to see a video of Charlotte on her boat, do check out

our Instagram feed, which is at BBC Women's Our beautiful thing to behold. But what about the aspect of being a woman on a boat because that was really part of this conversation as well Joe tell me a little bit about I don't know what you've come up against well perhaps I could give you a sort of potted history in like 90 seconds

of the different kinds of women who've lived on canals because in in writing my book which is partly a history I've been looking for evidence of women who were involved at the earliest stages of the canals, at funding and financing it. Didn't find them because they're probably disguised by their menfolk in the records. But, of course, there's one class of women who have always beginning, and they are the working boat women who worked as part of a family unit working the boat. We often speak of boat men and their wives.

I would say there's no more such a thing as a boatman's wife than there is such a thing as a farmer's wife. A boatman's wife is a boater. So they have been the main class of women who have been part of the canals. But also the navvy women, there were a few navvy women and they must have been terrifying.

The partner, you know, Burke and Hare, the grave robbers? Mr. Hare, his wife was a navvy. So she obviously knew how to dig as well. we often hear about the idle women who were the equivalent of the land army during the war but they were a vanishingly small number of mainly middle class women who came in worked the boats during the war to replace the men who were serving at the front but now of course we have a pretty huge community of liverboard women many of us single

far more than there were when I first came onto the boats 20 years ago and what I find, and I don't know what Charlotte's experience is, but what I find is that there isn't really a noticeable gender difference in terms of how you are respected and treated as a female boater. Tom Rolt said in his famous book, Narrowboat, the only distinction on the canals is that of capability. And I find that as long as you can fix a bilge pump and turn a boat round in a tight, winding place,

you don't get treated differently by the boating community. So there is a community of boatwomen living aboard nowadays. And I think although we have certain challenges in terms of thinking about security and thinking about physicality of boating life, there isn't a noticeable discrimination in the boating community. Well, I want to thank our listener, Dina, who got in. touch and also, of course, Charlotte Ashman and Joe Bell for giving us a little snapshot of what it's like to live on the waterways. You want to see a little bit more. As I mentioned, there is a

video of Charlotte on her boat. She's an artist. So draws inspiration from the canals. Do check out our Instagram feed. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, I do want to read another couple of your messages. My children don't have children, but I'm an extra ground mat to my got children's children and I love it. I couldn't love them more. Another, I'm very upset that I don't have, I may never have grandchildren as my daughters get older. She also goes on to say I have told my good friend just how painful it is. She has got grandchildren and she will say I know how you feel about grandchildren but and then go on to say something about the downsides. For example, her is getting older and not needing her. I feel that people just don't

don't understand. Keep them coming 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, have you ever thought about going back to school? Maybe you have. According to the think tank, the Higher Education Policy Institute, mature learners are more likely to have caring responsibilities or come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds. So perhaps unsurprisingly, the older they are, the more likely they are to be female. The listener Sue Goldsmith and fellow recent graduate, a Rahat Ishmael, both decided to study later in life. Sue 71 has just graduated from the University of Essex with a degree in criminology. And last year at the age of 53, Rahat, a manager for Barking and Dagenham Council,

got a degree in global politics and international relations from Burbank University of London. They both got firsts for their efforts. And I'm happy to say they're both in the studio with me now. Congratulations and welcome. Thank you. Good to have both of you with us. Sue, why did you want us to cover this? I wanted to cover it not necessarily just for what I did, but really because I'm just a passionate believer in mature learning to such an extent that I think universities really are not necessarily looking at that area of recruitment for undergraduate middle-aged people who are able to think about a different career, different direction and don't necessarily think that they can take a degree. it's out there the government can lend you money

and that's my reason for being here to really advocate mature learning that if you think about it and want to do it go and think about doing it and do it and why did you want to do it what inspired you I was saying earlier to one of your researchers I wanted the waterboard oh yes I saw my children with their waterboards

and thought I want one of those but it still didn't occur to me really that I was capable of doing it until the germ started on the back of a boat one day with another lady who'd done a mature degree and the mature just, the germ just grew and grew. What was it like to wear the mortar board? Oh, you'll have me crying. Unbelievably, you know, when I left school at 16 with a scraping of five GCSO levels, and was happy that really university wasn't on my horizon. You went to Oxford, Cambridge or London and I was never an academic student at all. all. And academia didn't interest me at all, so I wasn't deprived. It was just that it wasn't

there. And to do it later in life was just the proudest moment up there with giving birth to children and getting married, really. Really was. Interesting. Wow, your situation. Yeah, hi. Hi. So how did you come to have a first at the University of Berwick? What was your journey back to learning? Yeah. So my journey is quite different to Sue's actually. And when I'm speaking. I'd like to talk about from a cultural perspective. So I was born in 1970 to a South Asian family, four sisters. And for us, there was no concept of education. I think, I'm sure if school wasn't compulsory, my parents wouldn't have sent us there either. For them, it was about if you can cook and you can read the grant, that's all you need. And their aim was to get us

married. So I was betrothed at six months. I was, and so I was, and so I, I was, and so I I was born in this country, grew up in this country, betrothed at six months. I was married at 15 years old, and then I had to leave school. So my life was directed. I had to leave school and then look after my family. And there was no concept of what is your dream, what is your ambition, what do you want in life? There was no concept of education for the girl child. And for me, I studied to reclaim my right to an education.

and people often... When was that? To reclaim my right. So it was... So it's really funny because when I decided, I always wanted to go back to studies or study.

And so I... Because I'm quite a feisty person and my husband says that of the four sisters, why did he marry the one with the mouth? And so I always... And also I live in my life like a soldier. There's so much stuff that's happened in my life and it's always been a battle.

And I will fight for that battle for women, for anybody whose rights have been taken away. And so I would do little bits of courses, did voluntary work with my little, so I've got three children. And then my youngest babies, well, I would just take her with me and do all these, like, little voluntary bits and do these little courses, like how to hold a mouse, you know, because the computer was coming, you know, people were using computers and things like that. And then it's when my children, much later, so I think it was 2014 that I did, it was called New Beginnings. And so you're in your 40s at this stage. Yeah, yeah, much later. And it was the UEL. They did this course called New Beginnings, and UEL are quite good because they do stuff in the community,

like in libraries or community halls, etc. So it was a six-week course where you got 20 credits and it would just show you, teach you skills on academic rights. That was the University of East London. But I'm wondering then, coming then to graduate as well, as I mentioned, with Sue, what was that like? How did your family react to you graduating with the first? Yes, my family, they were really happy. Because you're talking about you were pushing back against cultural norms or conventions within your particular family to really arrive at a completely different spot from the path that was laid out for you at 15. Yes.

So they were really happy that I studied and then I did well and then I said that I wanted to go straight into our masters and it was a sacrifice for them as well as for me because my, so I do work full time but the normality of my life was to make sure that the house was clean that the cooking was done then my husband's shoes were there for him to then just place into his feet and he had said to me like even when I wanted to go to work

he said if nothing changes for me you can go to work And I said, I'm not asking you, I'm telling you. And so for him, he wanted nothing changed. But then my daughter took on that care of the home along. I mean, she always did it. But she was, you know, that burden, that double burden went to her as well to do more to help me to study. There's a lot of challenges there to get to the point where you are. What did you find Sue was one of the bigger challenges perhaps going back as a mature student?

Like for the actual learning, I don't know. Yeah, the actual learning, I so remember going into the first lecture. scanning around and thinking, well, it's nobody my age, there's nobody 20 years younger than me, 30 years younger than me, maybe, maybe, no, not really. And it was sitting there thinking there's a lot of 28-year-olds here, what are they going to find as a connection with me? But as the course went on, the way that the lecturers were, my cohort were the last sit A levels remotely so they were quite shy but I wasn't and I found there was great long silences with lecturers asking questions so I found myself sort of feeling for the lecture but I remember one day

they were talking about the parrots of Caribbean and the heads turned around and said well what was that and I said what was the film with Johnny Jep and they went so they thought they they sort of used me as a history lesson really and they just said gosh and but I found with them I was using them as a sort of contemporary lesson as well. But you made friends? I really did make friends. To the point when I did at my graduation, there was four girls who wanted to be with me at the graduation.

We've got photos together. We threw hats together. We were part of their families together. And the lecturers as well really said they got a great deal out of having a mature student in the class. What would your advice be, Rahat, in our last minute or so for people who are feeling

it's insurmountable to go back into education. So I'd say you can definitely do it and there's so much scope and flexibility out there for people to study. Universities are doing learning in community places and also with flexibility about fees as well

so like I'm at the University of Law doing masters and I think there's either 10 or 20 installments and also you know you can get loans although masters it's is a bit difficult. But universities have got flexibility about how to pay for the fees as well. And, you know, online, in person, it's just so different now to how it used to be.

I want to come back to you as well, the fact that you broke off first. Were you expecting it? No. Sue? No. Your term, my husband would say I went white when I saw the result. So I worked really hard to get a first, and I'm really happy that I got it. And I think my hard work just had to make.

sure that I got that first. Obviously paid off. Thanks to both of you for coming in and also Sue for bringing the idea to us. That's Sue Goldsmith, also a hat, Ishmael. Congratulations again on your first and thanks for coming into us on Women's Hour. Right, Nita, with you tomorrow, she'll be speaking to Mary Havana Little, a traditional fibrous plasterer who makes plaster mouldings for historical homes and TV. And if you have an idea, get it in. 8-4-8-44. We'll talk to you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Our culture can cancel someone in the blink of an eye. Celebrities, sports stars, politicians, influencers, and royalty can all find themselves in the firing line.

In the age of AI-generated evidence, lawsuits written in legalese, you need to pass the bar to decipher, how are you supposed to separate the fact from the fiction? That's where we come in. I'm Anishka Matandadowity, and this is Fame Underfire from BBC Sounds. We'll myth-bust, debunk, pre-bunk, fact-check and get to the truth behind the timeline. every week, so make sure you listen to Fame Under Fire and subscribe on BBC Sounds.