Woman's Hour - Listener week: Patriarchal wedding practices. Ukraine sponsorship. Rural bullying. Pubic hair loss in menopause

Episode Date: August 23, 2022

Listener Week: stories suggested by you.Many of you wanted us to talk about the patriarchal nature of some wedding traditions which seem to have stood the test of time like being walked down the aisle by your dad. Why are they still around and what do they symbolise? We look at their roots with Rachael Lennon, author of Wedded Wife: A Feminist History of Marriage; and journalist Sarah Graham, who planned a feminist wedding.We regularly cover the health issues women face as they approach the menopause. One listener asked us to raise awareness of a less publicised aspect of the process - which is pubic hair loss. Many women finds this gradually happens from the perimenopause on and unlike when you’re younger, it doesn’t grow back and it's said can exacerbate problems with libido and sexual identity. Emma finds out more from the Chair of the Menopause Society Paula Briggs and the Sex Therapist Stella Sonnenbaum.The refugees minister, Lord Harrington, has made a plea to the Treasury to double the money given to families hosting Ukrainian refugees. He fears that the cost of living may lead to a quarter of the host households pulling out of the scheme at the end of October when the initial six months is up. Many people are having positive life-affirming experiences, but we have also been contacted by some listeners who are having a trickier time and feel not much is being said publicly about when these situations go wrong.And advice for a mother who lives in a rural area who emailed about her daughter being bullied from Kidscape’s CEO Lauren Seager-Smith and Consultant Child Psychologist Dr Jane Gilmour.Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. The second instalment of Listeners Week, where you set and drive the agenda and you are not holding back, thankfully, otherwise we wouldn't have anything on the airwaves. You will hear that in our first discussion shortly. Coming up today, a woman who doesn't know where else to turn about the bullying of her daughter.

She's come to us and we hope we can help a little. Pubic hair loss during menopause. One of our other listeners is quite concerned about that and doesn't feel like she can talk about it easily with her friends or anyone else. And why some of you are very frustrated indeed with weddings, in particular this summer, which is a bumper crop because of the backlog to do with COVID and lockdown. Anything you hear on the programme you want to comment on, you know I like

to get you involved all the way through. You can text me here on the programme. The number is 84844. Text will be charged your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. And you can email us through our website. You can also now send a WhatsApp message or a voice note using 03700 100 444. Just remember, data charges may apply, so you may wish to use Wi-Fi. Please use those contact details if there's anything else you wish to get onto the programme this week during Listener Week. We're very responsive and flexible, so do keep getting in touch. But first, this morning, the Refugees Minister, Lord Harrington, has made a plea to the Treasury

to double the money given to families hosting Ukrainian refugees. He fears that the cost of living may lead to a quarter of the 25,000 host households pulling out of the scheme at the end of October when the initial six-month period is up. Within Ukraine, over 6.6 million people have been displaced by the war and 17.7 million people require urgent humanitarian assistance and protection. The British public has offered major support both in terms of homes and charitable donations and many people

are having positive life-affirming experiences. We've heard from many of them throughout the last few months here on the programme. I remember talking to Judith Hutchinson from Hampshire, you may recall this conversation. She came on the programme in May to talk about taking in Oksana Melashuk with her two children. It was a very emotional conversation and the journey for her to get to her was difficult, to say the least. But they managed it. But we have also been contacted, and this is Listener Week, remember that, by some listeners who are having a trickier time, linked to exactly actually what the minister is fearing,

money pressures when it comes to supporting and continuing to support those living with them, but also personal clashes. We're still people, regardless of what's happening politically. money pressures when it comes to supporting and continuing to support those living with them, but also personal clashes. We're still people, regardless of what's happening politically. And they feel, some of these listeners to the programme, that not much is being said publicly about when these situations go wrong. Well, earlier, I spoke to Jane, who listens to Woman's Hour and got in touch. She emailed in about her experience and she took in a refugee student. The news, the horror stories, I was also listening to the Ukraine podcast daily on the BBC and I just thought I've got to do something. My husband and I were in our 50s, we've got two grown-up children who don't live at home anymore, we had the room

and I just thought I can do that that is something I can do so signed up as soon as the government scheme came online and how has that process been awful um initially the government guidelines were so sparse there was no help on how to find anyone right so all you could do and it was really like a bad dating site was go on facebook homes for ukraine facebook page and one for locally where we live and ukrainians were posting on there giving their situation the local county council really great came out really quickly did a home check did our dbs check so we were ready to go and then it was a case of just find your ukrainian so we found a ukrainian student who was two years into a three-year course

and it's just a case of doing zoom calls and chatting a couple of times a week and them telling you their story and you deciding, yeah, let's give it a go. So we were told by this young girl that her father and older brother were fighting. Her mother lived on a farm with a younger sister. They were relatively safe and the parents wanted her to have a better future. But she had no money. So a friend in the village gave a chunk towards her flight. We paid for the rest of the flight.

As soon as she got off the plane, the first thing she says is, I can't believe in the uk i'm going to be a model what what so anyway people were so generous friends family giving material things my sister works for a high street store in a whole box of clothes no don't want it it was it was just strange from initially and I can remember waking up a few days in thinking I don't want her here and it was difficult she didn't get up for days she didn't get dressed she used to come down for a meal and put a gum on the table and just silly things but anyway it was very difficult from the start what i didn't realize and the major thing is

there's nothing in the government guidelines to warn you that if a student comes over and they're studying online in the ukraine they are not eligible for universal credit or a student loan. Right. So no help. So that meant we were actually supporting her until she finished her course for the summer and could get a job. Not a problem. We fed her. Presumably, if you don't mind me breaking it at this point, presumably you were getting the monthly payment that's in the news today. Yes, that took a while.

Yes, that came. Okay. That was the slowest part and it had to be chased, but yes, it came. Okay, sorry. But your point is you didn't know about there will be those limitations economically? No. And you can see now, even on this Facebook page, that students are trying to come and they're not aware of this.

I've commented so many times, before you come, think about this because you're not going to get universal credit. You can't get a student loan. Can you work and do your studying? So's that side of it which is which is obviously their age and their their particular limitations but i thought you were about you're about to go on to say something else so that's the big difficulty so yes she got a job when she finished studying for the summer um where my husband works on a big science park and at the headquarters they're great they said we'll have her for two days a week she can get the bus she work in the

office do what she can but she didn't want to work um so they ended up asking her to leave because she did very little. She then got a job locally in a coffee shop. And by then, we'd just had enough. All she wanted to be was a model. And all she had come here for was to be a model. Sorry, I should go back. Very early on, I was here and she was FaceTiming her mum. I said, let me wave to your mum. So they're on this farm.

It's all very rural. Wave to mum. And I said, who's that sitting by her? Oh, it's my brother. No, the brother's 12. He's sitting there on his computer console playing a game. There is a younger sister. Dad is not fighting. He was working in the ports. That's come to an end, so he's had to go back and work on the farm. So that basically was not true. She has come here for a visa. And you were obviously part of the group where I imagine,

you're talking about being part of this Facebook group, I imagine the stories were in the main different to that or were you hearing something similar? Because, of course, we've had people on the programme, we've had people on Women's Hour talking about it being a positive experience, it being a life-affirming experience. I imagine you saw some of that as well as, tell me, some of what you're saying. Absolutely. Early on I put a comment on there,

I can't remember what happened. She was putting Instagram pictures of our home on there and I just didn't want it. They stood outside, this is my home in the UK, blah, blah, blah. I'm going to be a model. And I just said, please don't do them in the house. And I put a comment on, you know, has anyone else had this experience?

And a few came forward and said, yes. I got in contact with this chap, a young chap, who he and his wife newlywed had taken in inner girl and they were having a similar problem. But the majority, yes, it was an amazing experience, life affirming. So I got quite a bit of negativity from just putting that comment on, just help. help so when we decided we'd had enough we'd given her a month's notice and went through the council and explained the situation and they were good they were good and knew the date they had a month to work to they look for another sponsor if not she would go into maybe a hotel until they could find another accommodation. So at that stage, I left this Facebook group and just said, you know, well, I appreciate so many of you having brilliant life-affirming experiences.

Mine's been awful. I'm not going to go into it. I know there's two sides to every story. But, you know, well done for what you've done feel a bit of a failure but thank you and goodbye and I was contacted then by another group support for Ukraine survivors did I want to join this group

which now shows how many issues there are big and small. Someone had, a Ukrainian woman, had apparently put a whole post in Ukrainian, which obviously can be translated, about how to approach the council for your own accommodation, including take your children, make them cry, cry a lot, make a real fuss, even down to say that the male host has been making passes at you and has actually got a property that way. So that was from...

So you've now come across experiences of others who have had negative experiences of taking a refugee. We are in a situation where these individuals are coming from a country at war. It is difficult. And of course, we're all still human with our own personality quirks, ambitions, dreams, despite the things playing out on the world stage. What would you say to those who question that? I feel a failure, but I feel it was partly my fault. Yes, some of it's cultural.

Some of it is I don't think you realise what it's like to have someone maybe in your own home that isn't your immediate family and you've got to think of that before you do it but just really be careful I feel I was duped and I'm really angry with myself for that because I feel there's an awful lot more people out there that I could have helped. And will you try again? Because you did three months with this individual. They're now in alternative housing, still in the UK, of course. She's taken herself out of the scheme completely

by not taking any advice from the council. So when she was given a month's notice, they spoke to her. She wouldn't speak to them, but anyway, I was doing most of the communication with the woman at the council and saying, look, she won't listen to us. Can you put these options to her and email her and ask that she understands it? So I did that. But she didn't take any of the advice.

But will you, I mean, if I may, will you look at doing this again? Because you obviously wanted to help. Yeah. The situation, I'm just very aware as we're talking, you know, there's heightened tensions in Kiev today, extreme concern about the Russia situation. And I know, you know, we're not a neighbouring country, but there will still be those looking for refuge. And again, there might be an increased number if things escalate. Would you do it again? I really don't know yet. I don't know.

I would like to think I would, but at the moment I don't know. Yeah, I mean, because I think that's, of course, at the heart of what you were trying to do. And at the same time, I think we have to have a space, which is why we wanted to have you on today, to talk about the realities of this. Because, yes, the government, I mean, I don't know if you've seen this story today but the refugees minister is talking about the need to double the amount of monthly money to help with the cost of living

how on earth most sponsors that i can see are in some way financially backing up their guests. Some have asked for a contribution to the gas and electricity, and they've turned most peculiar. When you explain that they need to buy their own food, again, it's been difficult. I think people have got, both sides have gone into this without the government setting out the most basic of guidelines of what is going to happen. You know, you will be buying your own food.

Your sponsor is not responsible for your food or you. And really about the students. I think the students is a biggie there's still an awful lot of students looking to get out which you can understand so from your perspective do you do think the money should be doubled or you don't i think it should because 350 pounds going into the winter is going to not touch it. And I do think that most sponsors are in some way, however small, however big, are helping out their guests. Yes. And that perhaps wasn't obvious to some, although to others, they may have thought if they're in a different position, well, this is what happens during wartime. You sort of club together and you do, of course, make what you can work. Yeah, and we did.

You know, there was those initial two, three months. Well, she stopped eating really when she had to buy her own food. So I'm still back at your original email to us and you said what is not being heard are some of the horror stories about guests lies, deceit and abhorrent behaviour and it sounds like you have heard other stories along those lines, you mentioned one of them I also wanted to share at this point we received another email from a listener who talked about what had happened with their son and daughter-in-law. If I could just read you part of that, it says they were one of the first to welcome two female refugees. They collected them from France, gave them a room with their own bathroom, TV, Netflix, Sky, bought them clothes and food and toiletries, even taking them on tours of the area and putting

them in contact with others and did all of their administrative work coming to the UK. However, the arrangement hasn't worked out too well as the girls expect the host to cook and transport them everywhere and have recently asked for £250 to pay off a Klana debt. That's one of those arrangements where you pay later for products off and clothes. They ring them for transport home when they've been out for a night out rather than get taxis. They spent the money the government gave them

on tourist memorabilia. And the last time I spoke to my son and daughter-in-law, they said that their relationship was suffering due to the way they felt they were being emotionally manipulated by the guests. They had managed to secure nine to five shop assistance jobs in a local boutique to help them with money,

but the Ukrainians said that they didn't want to work full time, so turned it down. It shows that not everyone deserves the effort that is being put into helping some of these people. And that signed off a worried parent. Absolutely. Every single word rings true. It is a lot of work. You take a person into your home and that initial week, two weeks is full on. Well, thank you for talking about this. I don't think it is something that is being talked about that broadly. No, I don't think the government wants it heard about. They've come up with this scheme. I would hope 90 plus percent of the situations are working, but they

are not helping with the ones that aren't. The local government are trying, they haven't got a budget, they haven't got the time. At the end of six months, I think the local governments are going to have an awful problem because there's going to be an awful lot of Ukrainians being asked to leave their guests' house.. Well that's the concern today from the Minister. Thank you very much for your time. Pleasure. That was Jane who got in touch with the programme. Of course that is her view of what went on. She mentioned herself there's two sides to every story. That's her opinion about the girl that she sponsored, the young woman. There are two sides to every story. And, you know, just keeping that in mind because we just spoke to her. Equally, that was her experience. And the message here just says,

I feel uncomfortable listening about Ukraine refugees, Ukrainian refugees, whilst I might have some sympathy for the caller who took in someone. She simply did not think about what she was doing. A young girl with dreams of being a model and probably holding on to that thought to blot out the miseries. Another one, we have several Ukrainian families around here where we live who've come through our church. They've all found jobs and have been amazing considering what they've been through.

And David says, I'm listening about your discussion on Ukraine. I spent 70 days in Poland and Ukraine and moved more than 50 people to where they needed to go around Europe. Several of those people have subsequently contacted me to ask if I could take them back to Ukraine because the sponsorship hasn't worked. And more importantly, they found it difficult to settle in such strange surroundings and are missing loved ones. We sometimes make too many simplistic assumptions about how it's best, quote, to help. Well, now I'm joined by Dr Krish Kandiar, which he is a founder of the Charity Sanctuary Foundation, which works with Ukrainian refugees.

Good morning. Good morning. First of all, what's your reaction having heard that? Because I know you've also talked to people about how they're finding the experience of taking in a refugee. And I should say you also have, I believe. That's right. We've got a lovely lady called Natasha living with us.

Look, I'm really sympathetic. There's 115,000 Ukrainians that have come to the UK in the last four months. This is unprecedented. We've never done this in our history that the closest parallel would be the 10,000 children that we took in the Kindertransport in 1939. It was one of Britain's kind of finest moments. But this is 10 times that amount in a shorter time. And adults. And adults. Yes, that's right. But the majority of children, actually, because it's often a wife with two children. So it's still, you know, a kinder movement.

But I suppose also what builds into that is that you then have children in the same household together with a parent. Yes, yes. As well. And to be honest, that's when we're hearing the minority of cases that are really struggling so we polled our um sanctuary foundation's got a big database of hosts and we polled them about 70 percent are telling us it's five out of five or four out of five things are going really well this is a game changer they're finding um real joy and offering help to people that are fleeing war and terror. But about 30% are struggling. And sometimes it's about having children the same age as those that you're hosting.

And that leads to all sorts of kind of almost sibling rivalries or different approaches to parenting. I think the other thing to note for those that are struggling is that most people have never done anything like this before at all. And we all know it's difficult to live with another person. Some of us struggle living with the in-laws for a weekend, let alone a stranger for three months. So there are going to be these niggles and culture clashes

and personality clashes, but there are ways out. And firstly, let me say to Jane, she says she feels like a failure. What she has done is something amazing. It might not feel like it. She's offered someone safety from a war zone. And however difficult it's been, she shouldn't think she's failed. It's something fantastic that she's done.

And that young woman, however she feels she's been treated, is in a safer place than she was before. There is no safe place in Ukraine at the moment. Kiev, often under rocket attack, places that people thought were safe to go back to, suddenly there's another attack. So there are no safe places in Ukraine. There's more people that need to come. But there are ways out. And re-hosting is happening in many places. We've helped locally, some families find new hosts. And where it hasn't worked out before, the next place

has actually worked out really well. So there is hope. And I'd love to say to listeners, please consider hosting. The vast majority of people are having a brilliant time. The systems are working way better now than they were at the beginning because it was like a mass evacuation when we first started. What about the cost side of things? Because we did, I should say, invite Lord Harrington on to the programme this morning, but at this time no one has come back to us. We aren't aware whether his request will be met. Do you support that request?

I do, actually. We did an open letter asking hosts what they felt, and about 3,300 wrote an open letter to the government to say, look, we really need to reconsider the thank you payments. They're a bit of a blunt instrument in that if you're hosting one refugee, you get £350 a month. If you're hosting a family of four, you're still getting £350 a month. And everyone I know is worried about the cost of living crisis.

And it would save the government money because if they're not hosting people, they're going to have to try and find independent accommodation. And in most of the places refugees are staying, it'll be impossible to find independent accommodation for £350 a month. So we might now be looking at a series of, as you say, re-hosting coming up as we hit the six-month mark.

Yes, about 25%. The ONS did a survey. About 25% are reconsidering whether they can continue. Ideally, it's better if we can get people into independent accommodation. Many of the women that are coming had serious, significant jobs in Ukraine, and they're feeling a kind of loss of identity. You know, now they have to ask when they use the bathroom or when they use the kitchen. And that's really hard to rebuild your life, overcome trauma when you don't have control of your life.

So if we can help people into independent accommodation, that is brilliant. But I think hosting needs to continue for quite a while longer. Thank you for coming to talk to us. Dr Krish Kandeyar, founder of the Charity Sanctuary Foundation. And thank you to you for getting in touch. You're keeping on doing so. And I'll come back to some of your messages very shortly. But to something else entirely, it is a bumper wedding season this summer,

in part due to the backlog from lockdown and people having to move their nuptials. And while there is a lot of joy and celebration, I was just bridesmaid for my own best friend last weekend, and this weekend is my brother-in-law's nuptials. Some of you are a bit bewildered, and dare I say it, frustrated by how many of the wedding traditions persist, despite the patriarchal roots and changes in society. And this is across all types of weddings from different religions, through to the non-religious ones as well. An email that I've got here says, in 2017, I went to a wedding.

I went to another a couple of years later. At both weddings, it transpired the groom had asked the bride's father for permission to marry their daughters. I found this very upsetting, although I did not show it at the weddings. I still find it just as upsetting. It's extraordinary. In 2021, this is still going on. I'm 68 years old. The brides were both in their early 30s. Joanne wrote in to say, why do young women who consider themselves feminists accept wedding

practices that are patriarchal? They're walked down the aisle by their father, given away to their husband as though they're a chattel. Later, the speeches are often only by the men, the best men, the father and the husband. Let's talk now to Rachel Lennon, curator and author of the upcoming book, Wedded Wife, A Feminist History of Marriage, and to someone who did things a bit differently, the journalist Sarah Graham. Rachel, I may start, I think, with you, because there are things connected to each of these traditions, are there not not that we may not be aware of for instance the bouquet throwing shall we start there yeah yeah so um i think your listeners are right and

that there are um some really deeply patriarchal roots to some of these traditions but um yeah they just persist so the bouquet toss is actually a relatively recent tradition. It's not one of the really deeply ancient ones, but it's more connected to this practice that emerged in kind of early modern Tudor times of a garter toss. So women would go and as part of a procession to the bedroom, the bedding ceremony, it was a big part of a wedding day that's kind of died out. And sit on the edge of a bed, take the garter off and throw it over their shoulder for someone or about weddings kind of perpetuating themselves. So I'm sorry, your line is slightly difficult.

We're just going to come back to you in a moment just to see if we can fix that, because that is an example of where that came from. Bouquet toss linked to the garter toss. So I'll come back to you in just a moment. I think we just need to see if we can fix your line. Let me go to Sarah, though, because Sarah, I think one of the things that often we think about is we like tradition at the same time as we we want to do what represents us in life. What did you do a bit differently?

So I did all sorts of things differently. We, I think, felt very strongly when we got engaged and even before we got engaged that we wanted to make a bit of a statement about our relationship. You know, we saw our wedding day as, you know, kind of a way of starting as we meant to go on. And we knew that we didn't want to have a traditional patriarchal marriage. So it kind of didn't make sense to us to have the sort of traditional patriarchal wedding day. So some of the things we did was I didn't wear white.

I wore a blue dress. We had mixed sex kind of bridal and groom parties. We both kept our own names. We had six speeches. So kind of going back to the point that one of your readers made, you know, I didn't want it to be a day where all of the men did all the talking and the women just kind of sat around looking pretty, you know. So we had three men and three women making speeches. We spread them out kind of through the different courses of the meal so that people didn't get bored.

I was going to say that the boredom of your guests is something I think everyone should bear in mind a bit more. The giving away of the bride or the groom, there's various versions of that, of course, across all religions. Did anything like that happen at yours? Yeah, so that was something that we thought quite long and hard about because I didn't want to be given away. I didn't like the sort of symbolism, you know, like your reader said of being sort of passed from one man to the other of it being this kind of patriarchal transaction. But equally, I quite liked the idea of my dad walking me down the aisle for the sort of sentimental reasons why people still do that.

So, you know, we deliberated, you know, possibly walking down the aisle together. And what we actually ended up doing was that my mother-in-law walked my husband down the aisle first and then I walked down the aisle with my dad. So it was kind of, rather than it being this sort of, you know, my dad handing me over to my husband, it was much more of a kind of symbol of families coming together. And actually, it was a really kind of beautiful, poignant moment. People still talk about, you know, that moment of my mother-in-law walking her only child down the aisle and how just, you know, she looked like she could burst with pride. It was really, really lovely. It's one of my favourite photos from the day. I think we've got Rachel back.

Hi, Rachel. Hello. Sorry about that. It's okay. We really wanted to hear what you had to say. So you were talking about the bouquet toss and that actually linking back to the garter being tossed out of the marital window, I believe you were saying. That's what it was about.

And so it went to the next guy and who it would be to get married get married that's where it originated from yes yeah very much so so it um a lot of the traditions that we um still practice today go back to this idea that we're trying to perpetuate the institution so we're looking to the next wedding that's coming along um and I was just well I was just I'd moved on there I don't know what you could hear because we're having those issues but I'd moved on to talk about the giving away of the bride from a man to another man. And that's quite an obvious one, what that harks back to, even if you don't know very much about your history. And yet it still persists because even what we just heard, there's something lovely for both parties in that they don't necessarily think of it of what it was intended to be. Yeah, I think that's right. I think that what needs to change really in that, I think what your listeners are sort of getting at is that expectation that there is only one right way of doing these things. But yeah, there certainly is that kind of patriarchal history of giving away the idea that a bride moves from, you know, a father's authority to a husband's authority and

you know we see it the first time a wedding ceremony was written in English in the 1590s was the book of common prayer and we have you know who give us this woman to be married to this man and there's this idea that you know she doesn't have the authority to give herself so I think it's good to be looking at these things and questioning them but it doesn't mean that we absolutely should stop all of them entirely and the white dress persists doesn't it it doesn't it doesn't the white dress is an interesting one in that it's not so old a tradition um it's very relatively very recent it's essentially victorian you know if we think of a big white western wedding we think of that kind of not just the color white but the floor length um pinching the waist gown it's essentially victorian dress and it didn't take off really in any big way outside of the sort of

royal elite classes until the mid-20th century it just wasn't it stems if i make stems from queen victoria is that right yeah it does she chose white um partly to stand out in the crowd so that she could be very visible um on her day and um it wasn't until yeah like i say later in the crowd so that she could be very visible on her day. And it wasn't until, yeah, like I say, later in the 20th century when people could more widely afford to buy this white gown. And then really it's exploded in the 21st century in a way that it was kind of rejected by most people as this sort of full length gown for the century before.

You find examples in history of women who have thought about this and try to to do things differently you do talk about Elizabeth Garrett Anderson tell us about what she did yeah so um she was the first woman surgeon in the country the first um female mayor in the country um Millicent Pawson's sister and when she got married she was very keen that it didn't interrupt her career it didn't change sort of her direction in her life so she insisted oh our line situation again Rachel instead of all of her money you're back automatically being subsumed into her husband's oh oh yeah so she um she says she wouldn't promise to obey her husband um she was determined to sort of keep her money to continue earning money and she was really fighting the fight that the women's liberation

movement was still fighting a century later you you've looked at this throughout history but also i imagine there's there's some changes you will have seen and you yourself got experience of with the with the ushering in of equal marriage and perhaps you know people thinking differently again yes absolutely and i think um equal marriage has provided a really good opportunity for us to look at some of these traditions and say wait why are we expecting only women to do this or only men to do this so one of the things i found planning my wedding to a woman was you you sort of you don't have the of the grooms there's no expectation that you know you must have a best man the ush you don't have the of the grooms, there's no expectation that, you know, you must have a best man, the ushers don't necessarily need to be men, you can look at your wedding party and

think, you know, sex and gender doesn't need to be the main criteria by which you assign the roles, we didn't have Ursa. Right, we're gonna have to call time, I reckon, on this. Rachel, thank you very much, though, for persisting with that line. We did get a lot of information out of you. To Sarah Graham, thank you to you for telling us about how you did things slightly differently. And I'm sure we'll also get more messages on this because at the end of the day, people, they think an awful lot, I suppose, about all these different details. And yet at the same time, want to preserve traditions, not for the reasons perhaps they were first instituted. So I look forward to some more of

your messages on that. But let me go now to an email from a listener who is in a very difficult place. She's looking for help and advice about something that she just doesn't know who else to talk to about it, and she didn't know who else to contact. Here's part of what this email said. She says, my daughter has just turned 15. She had a rocky start to her high school days, was ostracised by the girl that had moved to the school with her and felt very isolated. In a strange way, COVID was a blessing as everyone was off school and all returned for a new start. Things were going well until a week or so ago. Two girls who were initially friends with my daughter have now started ignoring her and laughing at her. I can see my daughter's self-confidence draining away.

She just doesn't know how to handle the situation. And my reason for contacting you is because I just don't know how to deal with this either. I feel hopeless and angry. I've said to her to try and ignore and avoid them, but she doesn't have any other friends to turn to. These girls seem to be popular with all the other girls and can turn them against my daughter. We live in Scotland in a fairly rural area. The nearest high school is about 12 miles away. And in the past, when we've discussed moving schools, she has said she does not want to do this.

What can we do? As her mother, I feel I should be able to help her, but I feel totally out of my depth. Well, joining me now, Lauren Seeger-Smith, Chief Executive of the bullying charity Kidscape, and Dr. Jane Gilmore, Consultant Clinical Psychologist at Great Ormond Street Hospital. Welcome to you both. Lauren, a very difficult situation indeed. What would you say, having heard that? Well, just first of all, I just want to really reassure you that you're not on your own. I think when families go through this, you can feel like you're the only ones and it can feel very lonely and very isolating. So first of all, it's really

good that you've made contact with Women's Hour. Do seek help. Kidscape are here to give practical support to children and families. And so you're not the only families going through this. And there will be light at the end of the tunnel, but it is extremely painful. Does it make any difference that they live in a rural area? She was at pains to point that out. I think it can be challenging in rural communities because quite often children are in one or two form entry schools which means your choice of social circle can be more limited and also support services within your area might also be more limited so that can make it quite challenging for families. Jane, let me bring you in at this point. What's your response to what's been raised? I think there's a number of things that spring to mind. One of them is that this young person

is a teenager, so she's slap bang in the middle of puberty. And we know that the teenage brain is in a unique state. In some ways, there are some drives that are very particular to bullying. So for example, the idea that she is drawn towards her peers. So the teenage brain at brain level wants to be integrated with their peer group. The teenage brain feels social pain like physical pain. So not being invited to a party is treated in the same way as breaking a leg. Serious, right? It's a time when we're developing our identity.

So we're very porous to those experiences. So you might imagine how that might impact on that young person's self-concept and development. And also we know the teenage brain feels emotions more intently than it's ever felt before. And so that loneliness and despair and so on is felt more acutely than would be the case in middle childhood. So it's a pretty spicy soup in terms of, you know, brain stage. She's also a girl. And we know that there are more similarities between boys and girls in the way that they bully. But one of the differences in the genders is that girls tend to use relational bullying techniques and more likely online. And, you know, that rural location part is probably quite an important part of the puzzle.

And we know that to some extent where there's a smaller peer group, any dysfunction in the group is more polarised. So there's less kind of dilution in that. So we put that all together. And for that young person, that's a pretty difficult situation. And, but, I've noticed that it's something that was going well until fairly recently. In the last couple of weeks, things have gone, you know, into a more difficult spot, which suggests there's some leverage there. So the sooner you act, the better. Okay. Acting means what? There's two sort of strands to this. One is if I was the parent here, I would do three things. Get connected, get talking, get practical. So get connected. Just let your daughter talk. Let all the big emotions out. Say very little because it might be the first time she said out

loud what's happened to her. Give her that sorting space to figure out what's happened. That sorting space is not my phrase, by the way. I wish that it was. It's not. Allow those emotions to settle and just listen. The second is get talking. So once the emotions have settled and you will feel as a parent, furious, upset, angry, you will have lots of big emotions yourself. Don't allow those to bleed into the situation. You need to stay calm and stay in control.

Because whether you're a toddler or whether you're a teen, seeing your parent out of control is actually quite frightening. So you've got to put a lid on those emotions, deal with them outside that context, but stay calm and stay connected and get talking. So the second stage is get talking, talk it through, find out the frequency, you know, how long it's been going on, maybe do some role play. So do some assertiveness training, as it were, like go into a shop, ask for something, do some role play. With a view to the daughter being able to assert herself in this situation. Exactly. And that can help.

And also not reacting to a situation in a role play situation. And this is quite a subtle point to get across to the young person. The young person is not responsible for sorting this out. This is not her problem to solve. And these actions can sometimes go some way to making some inroads to making it better. So it's not her responsibility, but she can take action. So that's quite a subtle point, but it's an important one. And the third?

The third is getting practical. Go into school and have some discussion. Now we know the teenagers really want to be part of this, they want to be consulted. So give her as much opportunity to be part of that solution, but you're the grown-up. You're going to go into school and you're going to talk to the school. I would be asking the school about some whole school interventions. We know those are effective, up to 50% of decrease in bullying events if the whole school is involved. I'd want to know what the anti-bullying policy is and I would ask the school to be involving the young people in writing their own policy. We know that makes a difference to the teenager's behaviour if they're involved in writing their own policy. So you don't steam around to the other parents' houses?

I don't think that's helpful. It's often what comes up, though, is a thought for how to respond. It is often the case, but we would have two parents who are protecting their young person, and we know that calm brains communicate best, and that situation is unlikely to be calm. So I think using the school as a place where the discussion happens and potentially getting some mediation

would certainly be the best route because you want to model some calm problem solving to your young people. Lauren, I was looking at a study to come back to you as the chief executive of the bullying charity Kidscape, just to remind our listeners. A survey done by Action for Children in 2019 came back with 61% of people saying bullying was the top barrier to having a good childhood. It's huge. And I think the tools for that are very difficult, aren't they, to how to help? Yeah, absolutely. You know know even if you're not

experiencing bullying the fear of bullying is very very high in this country um partly because we talk about it a lot which is a good thing um so it's really important to get perspective and i think what's interesting about this email as well is that you know it does sound like this young girl had good relationships with her peers at one point and then things have got tricky and then very often bullying is a peer group behaviour as well and children will go in and out of relationships with one another and have this conflict within their relationships and so you know it is about that whole school support about schools really facilitating positive and healthy relationships between young people to help them

work through those differences. What if your school's hopeless? Then it's really important to get support. Every school has a legal duty to protect children from bullying and harm. I know. I'm just, again, trying to do that awkward thing of reflecting what some people say, which is, you know, the school just don't want to get involved, even if they have that duty, or they don't have a policy that's fit for purpose. Not all schools do. We know it's been very, very difficult, especially coming through the pandemic for certain schools. Yeah, absolutely.

So contact the Kidscape parent advice line. We can take you through a process. We can take you through law and guidance, how to have a really good meeting with the school and really get the school on side. That point about being calm is so important. To go in there focusing on what the impact of the bullying has been on your child and to work together with the school to come up with a

resolution is really really important so again do seek help and we can take you through that process do you ever see that jane that the schools or the ones that you're hoping can help don't i think often they're not aware of the programs and i always say that a rising tide raises all boats right these interventions help all the kids in the school it increases their capacity to take Often they're not aware of the programmes. And I always say that a rising tide raises all boats, right? These interventions help all the kids in the school. It increases their capacity to take different perspectives. It increases their capacity to engage in empathy. It increases their emotional literacy.

And that is gold dust. And what about if you're the parent of the bully? How do you accept that your child is far from the angel you hope they are? And look, none of us is perfect. If you are the parent of somebody who's carrying out bullying behaviour, good for you for addressing it. It takes a brave person to do that. I would do a number of things. I would convey this again very calmly, but want to know what's going on, what's their perspective. Now, the reason for that is in some small cases, somebody who's carrying out bullying is also being bullied themselves. So you want a full picture.

And those kids are actually the ones that are most vulnerable in terms of their immediate adjustment and their long-term adjustment. Is that like when you get a difficult adult and people say, well, they're just shy, they've got their own issues and you have to accommodate? I'm not making light of it, but I'm so on the side of this woman who's written in, who's at her wits end and I'm just so thinking about what I would be feeling or trying to do or not knowing what to do.

Well, I think Billy Hargreaves in Stranger Things, he's your classic kid who was bullied and showed behaviour that all of us would say that's not on. I think in terms of the school intervention, we need to allow the school to get the kids. What we call the bystander effect is actually one of the most important things in the teenage years. So the kids that are standing around that bullying event need to call it and say that's not on because that immediately punctures the social power. And that is the way that you make a very positive community. And that school will, you know, it's a good thing on so many levels, not just about bullying. It gives us good citizens. So schools should and could engage in these programmes. Of course,

it's been school holidays as well. And then you're with your child and hoping to make them feel a bit better. And perhaps they're not going to the parties, like you say, as well. Some great advice there, Dr. Jane Gilmore, and great advice from Lauren Seeger-Smith, who's also said please do get in touch with the charity that she's the chief executive of, Kidscape, and I should also say on the BBC Action Line website, which we'll publish the details of, there'll be further support if you're going through something yourself.

Now to something else completely, which is a big part of Women's Hour generally, but also especially on Listener Week. If you are a regular listener to the programme, you'll know menopause is a topic we have talked about a lot and will continue to do so for good reason. But a lesser known aspect, which I don't think I've necessarily thought about before, but has been raised by one of you, is the issue of pubic hair loss. We have an email from a woman called Louise who's been in touch. She writes, I'm a 61 year old, very post-menopausal woman who's never been on HRT.

I seem to be genetically lucky. I'm perfectly happy with my body except for one thing, the ever decreasing pubic hair. The thinning eyebrows, I can tolerate. And I see information and products are plenty in the public domain on this topic. I do feel this is still a taboo subject as I've never heard any of my women friends discussing it unless I bring it up. Like your guest Emma Thompson who we had on a few weeks ago, I regret the general demise of the bush. But in this case, it's personal. While most girls and women are getting rid of hair in every nook and cranny,

I'm left wistfully clutching at wisps. If only they knew what the ageing process had in store, perhaps they'd treasure their body hair more. Thank goodness my libido is non-existent because the disappearing pubic hair means I never want to have sex again. Well, thank you very much for that. Very candid email, Louise,

and I'm sure you're not the only one. Paula Briggs is on the line, an NHS consultant in sexual and reproductive health, also chair of the Menopause Society, And Stella Sonnenbaum is a sex therapist working with individuals and couples. Paula, good morning. Good morning. Thank you for being with us. Is that typical? What's going on with Louise? It is. It's a feature of urogenital atrophy, which is a condition affecting urogenital tissues caused by a reduction in oestrogen post-menopause and I think Louise makes a really important point that it's an area

of menopause which isn't talked about frequently and I think it would be refreshing if women were made aware of the various different things that can happen to them at this time. And she hasn't taken HRT, would that have an impact on this? Not really. So the better treatment option for urogenital atrophy is vaginal oestrogen. And I have to say, even then, the reduction in pubic hair, I think, would be less likely to be affected by delivery of vaginal and vulval oestrogen treatments. I totally appreciate her point of view. And obviously for her as an individual, it's hugely important, the loss of her pubic hair.

I do wonder whether the tissue quality generally is poor and that impacts on her desire to have sex. So actually we should be focusing perhaps on the skin thinning? I think focusing on the whole thing I mean it's very difficult to treat a reduction in pubic hair but maybe we can make her feel better generally without having to have systemic HRT What sort of things could you do?

You can use vaginal oestrogen either oestradiol as a pessary or oestriol which is a weaker oestrogen as a cream and then there are some really great new treatments DHEA is a precursor hormone delivered as a pessary daily and ospemiphene is an oral medication it's a selective oestrogen receptor modulator and laser therapy is also on the horizon as a potential treatment for this condition so what's going to happen with laser therapy laser therapy will be used as a non-hormonal method of managing this condition and when i

say will be used what we need now are randomized controlled trials to show whether this is genuinely an effective means of managing urogenital atrophy. Well, there'll be some of you listening who think maybe you don't need to manage it. You know, it's part of ageing. It is how it is. I'm not saying you're saying you need to, but are there benefits to trying to, in inverted commas, sort it? Yes. So basically, without treatment, this condition will become progressively more severe as time goes by. So unlike other menopausal symptoms which resolve, this gets progressively worse. And it's not just about sex. This leads to recurrent urinary tract infections, chronic pain, has an impact on quality of life. So I think it's important to discuss the condition and the potential treatment options.

And I know we've kind of veered off pubic hair, but it's a feature. Get it back to the pubes. I mean, come on. We've got to stay on topic here, Paul. I don't want to I don't want to be accused of not staying on. I just I understand what you're saying, that actually there could be something else going on there. So it's important to look at the whole the whole area. There are messages we received as well about pubic hair transplants, which I don't know if you know about. But apparently that's also a thing. I don't know anything about it. Fine. But again, if you don't have the thinning situation, it also goes grey for a lot of women and men. Something else that perhaps they don't

like for all sorts of reasons. Stella, there is a part of this message right at the end, which talks about, thank goodness my libido is non-existent and because of the pubic hair going I don't want to have sex again apart from what we've just talked about which could be helped through medicine what do you make of that do you think that's something that our listener should accept well this is very interesting and first of all I'm also grateful that she brings it up like she says like her friends never talk about that And so that takes a lot of courage to actually say, this is what I'm really, what I really don't like about myself.

Unfortunately, there's the negativity bias. And so she says she likes herself. She likes her body. And she's genetically gifted, she says. So she looks good. But the one hang up, the pubic hair, that's what she concentrates on and i'm curious about that libido thing as in like thankfully i don't have libido because anyway i

wouldn't want to have sex with that thinning pubic hair and so as we saw in that movie leo grande um the emma thompson scene yes yeah exactly In the last scene she looks at herself and the pleasure has transformed the way she looks at herself and actually when we do have pleasure

with our bodies it transforms the way we look at ourselves and the appreciation that we have of the bodies So do you think there could be

a way back on this front because perhaps it's not about the pubes it's actually about how she's feeling. Yes, and I don't want to dismiss that issue that she has with the pubes. And so it may be something that she really appreciated formerly.

And now that's, you know, that's the thing of ageing that then we lose it and it transforms. And so I would probably like her to have a dialogue with the rest of her body or with the feature in her body that she really likes and appreciates and that feature in her body that she doesn't like so much and have these two talk to each other. And I guess that is the kind of like she talks about libido, but there is a part that maybe would like to have libido, would like to have sex and so giving that a voice as well. So maybe like Emma Thompson's character in the film,

which has got the name Leo Grand in the title, she's 61. You think perhaps what, standing in front of the mirror, having a good look at herself naked, having those sorts of questions of herself. I mean, it sounds, it's great in a movie, but in real life, do you think that's something that women like Louise, I know we don't a movie, but in real life, do you think that's something that women like Louise,

I know we don't know her, but hello, Louise, do you think that's something that they can do? Have you seen that with your clients? Yes, I've seen a complete transformation by a pleasure and that's sometimes within minutes, as in like people connecting to the genitals and the face lights up. So that's very, very obvious. Okay, the film's called Good Luck to You,

Leo Grant. There's a message, I can't believe this talk, about the loss of pubic hair. All of my friends in their 60s have lost their pubic hair and not had HRT. There's messages coming in about this. What I need you to talk about

is the loss of pubic hair around the rest of the rest of society and how we how we view it. More messages coming in around those and people being very grateful for talking about this. Paula, when you when you talk to women who are older, do they do they open up to you about this? Of course, you're the chair of the Menopause Society, this side of things. I mean, I think one thing that we realise is that women want to be asked. They may find it really difficult to initiate a conversation about sexual difficulties. So I think it's a really important part of a menopause consultation to say, when did you last have sex? Do you want to have sex? Do you and your partner want to have sex? Because we need to accommodate for everyone and not all couples still want to have sex. But if they do, then it's important to discuss various treatment options to

help them. And it's not just about hormonal therapy. We often work very closely with psychosexual counsellors and also specialist pelvic floor physiotherapists. Do you accept, thank you for that, Paula, do you accept, Stella, that some people just want to stop having sex and that's OK? Do you accept that as a sex therapist? Absolutely, yes. And there's also people who define themselves as asexual.

Yes, so that is part of what it could be, and not necessarily getting older is part of your life at any point. Yes, but from the letter, i think there's some regret there that's what i hear and with that regret anything else you want to say to to her i'm hoping she's listening is there any other advice we are sexual beings unto ourselves and so that means that connecting to sexual energy doesn't even mean that we have to touch ourselves intimately it's about like keeping this life force going and that is important and that's important for well-being how do you do that how do you do that if you're you're not touching yourself or being touched stella via feeling into the pelvic floor because

we have a lot of yummy nerve endings in that area. And so you can use breath and breathe in that area and also contract the muscles. And we can do that anywhere. We can do that like when we're in the supermarket if we want to go. Louise's time in her local supermarket just got a whole lot better because of you, Stella.

Thank you very much indeed and to you Paula and for all of your messages today. Another installment of Listener Week tomorrow from 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Jade Adams and in Welcome to the Neighbourhood, I take a peek at the nation's community apps and message boards for some comedy eavesdropping. Does anyone know who's parked in our drive? I got hit by a potato on the high street earlier.

Could you please have some decency and close the curtains if you're having sex? Each episode, I'll be joined in my online curtain twitching by a different guest, including James Acaster. You don't need to put out a theme to the local community. You can just go straight to the police. Sarah Keyworth.

I highly doubt she's read The Highway Code. And Helen Bower. They're inciting a riot in three sentences. Welcome to The Neighbourhood with me, Jade Adams, on Radio 4 and BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.