Woman's Hour - Listener Week: Sahraa Karimi escape from Kabul, Extinction Rebellion, Doughnut Economics, Early SEN diagnosis, Circo Rum Ba Ba

Episode Date: August 25, 2021

Circo Rum Ba Ba describe themselves as an exuberant troupe of all women performers who bring extraordinary spectacle and performance into unconventional settings where it is least expected. Founder and artistic director, and Woman’s Hour listener, Marianne Grove, a trained actor explains why she went from performing in theatres into the street bringing the magic of the circus and theatre to a wider audience. We hear from Sahraa Karimi an Afghan film director and the first female chairperson of the Afghan Film Organisation who tells us of her recent escape to Kiev in the Ukraine. What does she make of the current Taliban guidance for working women to stay at home for their own safety?Extinction Rebellion is protesting in London for a fortnight. They've warned to expect disruption. Listener Fiona Atkinson from Kendal got in touch with us to say that she's joined the group at the age of 65 and was there on Monday. She'd due to return next week. Her email to us began by saying, "I and thousands of women will be in London on Mon 23rd August in Trafalgar Square at the start of 2 weeks of the Extinction Rebellion protest. I would love you to cover the women involved in the Climate Crisis debate/protests and focus on how it will affect our children and grandchildren.” She is joined by Marion Malcher, 66, who was arrested on Monday for lying in middle of a street with her arm in a suitcase. She was released without charge and is back at Piccadilly Circus this morning. So what is motivating older women to protest and is it effective? Many listeners have been in touch with their concerns about the planet, especially in relation to our ‘growth-at-all costs’ economic system. One psychoanalyst called Phoebe Wieland emailed us about how she is ‘increasingly seeing clients from all walks of life who feel deep existential anxiety about the climate and ecological situation we face." Phoebe asked us to invite mental health professional Sally Weintrobe on to the programme whose new book on the psychological roots of the climate crisis has just been published. Listeners also asked us to speak to Kate Raworth who is a prominent eco-economist whose groundbreaking work Doughnut Economics has helped them find hope. There are approximately 351,000 children with a learning disability in the UK - but an assessment and diagnosis can take years. One listener - called Lauren Gibson - is in this waiting period wants some advice. She joins us to discuss, alongside Salena Begley, the Scottish Partnership Engagement Manager at Family Fund UK.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to today's programme, the third instalment of our Listener Week where you drive the content and I try to do what you've asked us to do. And another varied feast awaits. Let me start today's programme by congratulating the cyclist Dame Sarah Story, you were just hearing in the news there, on Team GB's first gold in the Tokyo Paralympic Games, claiming her 15th gold medal. The 43-year-old is just one behind Mike Kenny's British record of 16 golds. Now on today's programme, you may be aware, you may have even been a part of it, you may be a part of it right now, or you may have been disrupted by it, that the climate protest group Extinction Rebellion are in the midst of two weeks of protest.

One of our listeners, Fiona, will be joining me shortly to explain why aged 65, she signed up and has taken to the streets of London. Some of you have also written in to us in the weeks leading up to this programme talking about climate anxiety and how concerned you are about climate change. Do you feel moved to do anything? What do you do? Or do you sit there, as some have said, with this anxiety and feel it's pointless, that you can't have any impact? Do worries about the climate even feature in your mind on the other side of this? Powerless or empowered or simply not bothered

about climate change? 84844, where do you come out on this? And how do you feel you can have an impact? Or are you absolutely ridden with anxiety over this? Because you don't feel anything you can do can make a difference. Of course, we're talking to people who feel that they are. We're also going to be hearing in terms of climate change possible solutions from the economist Kate Raworth. Some of you asked for us to speak to her. We've got her on the programme about why a donut-shaped economy could help. She'll be explaining what that means if you're not familiar with the term.

I certainly wasn't. And also on today's programme, a woman who listens to Women's Hour, very good, who got in touch to explain why she ditched acting in theatres to form a women's circus troupe on the street. And I'm reliably told she's also going to play some Saw for us. So that's all to come. But first, you may remember last week we heard from the Afghan translator and my BBC colleague, she works on BBC World News, Zarguna Kargar.

She's an avid listener to Woman's Hour, even formerly presenting Afghan Woman's Hour, and she suggested we get in touch with the Afghan film director and chair of the Afghan film organisation, Sara Karimi, who recently escaped from Kabul and is now in Kiev in Ukraine. She joins us now. Good morning. Good morning, everybody. Thank you for inviting me to your programme. Thank you for coming. And I thought we could start with talking about the moment that you realised inviting me to your program thank you for coming and and i thought we could start with uh talking about the moment that you realized you had to flee i believe you were in a bank yes i went to bank early morning 15th of august just to get money because i in

afghanistan i don't use a credit card i usually go to bank and take some money and i went there and hundreds of people were waiting and the bank was out of the like money and i was waiting too after two hours two and a half three hours then gunshots started and uh and the manager of bank he came to me and he told that taliban surrounded the city and also they entered entered the city so i just and he told me that because everybody knows you so it is very dangerous for you uh so uh you should get out of you should get out of out of bang and take taxi and go home he showed me the back door and i just started like i couldn't take taxi i started running running it was it is almost five kilometers so in the middle of the because i am filmmaker and every moment is every situation is for me also like from a filmmaker perspective is also interesting

so i just told that okay what is going on and even maybe world doesn't know about us and uh today before today before also i i wrote a open open letter to film communities around the world so i told it is better now to use this social media uh instagram uh and to go live and to to tell to the world that the Taliban just took over Kabul. I was just going to say, if I can, you were, as you say, filming as you left and creating this footage because you work in film and you know the power of it and you want to share it with people.

We actually have a clip. Let us just hear a clip. You were speaking in Dari there. Can you translate what you were saying? I was telling just that Taliban just entered the city and people they don't know and I'm just running. I think they are coming to kill us because we had a very bad experience under the Taliban regime in the past. I was I was a teenager at that time. But, you know, and but so it was for us. It is kind of nightmare that that just just we heard that they entered the city.

So I tried to inform people through that video. And what was your journey like to leave Afghanistan, to leave Kabul? It was very difficult because at that time when I heard that the Taliban entered the city, so I just think of my nieces because my brother, he has five daughters in different ages. So I was thinking, okay, if they just came and take over the city, what about my nieces? Because all of them, they are girls and they just, just you know they cannot live under this kind of limitations and their regime and their government so i decided like to call my brother and told that pack your things i'm coming within a few minutes and take you and you're leaving and they were in shock because my my niece the the second, she's like six years old.

She was in kindergarten. So her mother just took her from the kindergarten and just like preschool, not kindergarten, preschool. So then I called my friend. She's president of Slolovak film and tv academy i told her that this is the situation and she told me that ukrainian are just departing at 4 30. so but we couldn't make it we we missed the plane and then we should we waited and and we were so much, like a lot of thousand, thousand people entered the airport. So then again, Ukrainian government and Slovak government, Slovak Film Academy, and also Turkish embassy,

they all together, they just cooperate to get me to army part of airport in the morning, early morning. I had with myself 11 people almost so then 16 of august at 3 p.m we could we could leave like kabul so we came to istanbul and then we we just and why why ukraine for you why was that the place because it was the only flight that i could catch because my name wasn't in any list right because some people they already had for example french french embassy french institute they had their own list of artists uh british they had americans they had c r uh everybody had but i wasn't in any uh in any list so the only hope that

the only hope that I had that I am member of Slovak film academy so then I can call my friend and she can the president so she can help she helped a lot and then when I came here safely

and we started to ask Ukrainian government to help other filmmakers so they help also other filmmakers. Like almost another 11 come here to Ukraine and 36 other groups, they help. So then I didn't like stay here so I'm in safe place so i'm okay now no i started to to help other help other people what are you what are you doing there now in ukraine and how are you feeling now you're there i am i am deeply sad and frustrated and i'm still in shock because i try to handle what is going on but still I need to solve problem of my brother

because my family my mom and my sister they live in Canada so I need to send them so we applied for visa for my my my brother's family and also I uh we I still and also I solved issue of sending these other filmmakers to to other countries countries, we get some visas for them. So you're still kind of, I suppose, as you say, shocked, but also working hard to try and help other people. I am trying to help. Because it is not anymore about me. It is about other people and to help them.

And because of help of some people, I am here safe. So this is my duty, responsibility to help for others. Now, when I get them to like other places that they want to go because they have some member of family, then I can sit down and think what should I do? Yes, because I do want to get your view because many, many more will not get out and will not be able to get out, not least because we're talking after we've heard that President Biden is not going to extend the deadline for troops, for US troops and allied forces

to stay in Afghanistan beyond next Tuesday. There was a story yesterday I wanted to ask you about, which is that the Taliban have told working women in Afghanistan that they must stay at home until proper systems are in place to ensure their safety. They're saying it's a temporary procedure, but they're basically saying working women cannot go back to their jobs at the moment. What do you make of that as a prominent working woman? We know Taliban very well. What they are searching for is recognition, international recognition. When they get the international recognition, then they will start their limitation

and catching people and putting them to prison. This step, working woman is cannot because you know they use this this traditional way of all who are protecting and we because of islam we are protecting this this but this is okay which is their interpretation but it's totally wrong when you are working woman so you should go to work even in this chaotic situation because but they want to step by step to take this this possibility from women. So they say, OK, one month, two months, three months, and then they say you should stay forever. So there should be a protest against it from women networks around the world. OK, those who stayed and they couldn't have any chance to get out, they should go to work. Some of women, they are like, they are the head of family. It means they don't have

they don't have husband or they don't have any man member to help them. So how they survive? Okay, some some woman they have like husbands or somebody take care of them. But But what about what about what about those woman that or those young talented women that they are taking care of themselves and they used to be independent. So it is all these things are starting, you know, this is just the start of limitations of women and limitation of participation of women in social, economical and cultural and even political, like... In their life and in their roles that they're playing.

In their life, yeah. What do you think would have happened to you, Sara, if you'd stayed? I am very famous anti-Taliban person. Even during peace negotiation that they had, I was the person that loudly told that they are not going to change, which now I see that they are right. And also when they were taking over the cities and villages, I also actively on Twitter especially, I was talking loudly about my thoughts.

So I'm very, and also I'm very feminist very much and I'm very independent woman so they hate me. And plus of that, that I am educated and in the same time I'm doing something like filmmaking. Filmmaking is forbidden for woman, forbidden in general and for woman is totally forbidden. So I am ready target to be killed by Taliban. So I know that's, you know, I have more than 130,000 followers on Twitter, so I don't know in between them who is the Taliban, because I cannot check one by one. So they are even, and also when they captured, they took over cities, so I started,

I write the open letter to film community. So it was shared everywhere. And also I write. I was going to say, people can read that online, that open letter that you sent. I write also personal, I write also personal letter to Angelina Jolie.

So she opened the Instagram account. I write also personal letter to Angelina Jolie. So she opened the Instagram account. So it is all this initiative. So they are not going to forgive me because I, and also here there was a summit of the first ladies here in Kiev two days ago. So they invited me and I asked them to not to give recognition to Taliban and to not to give international recognition so if so all of these they are not they're not pleased to hear these things that a woman become a voice even she she escaped from the country but still she is a voice I try to inform people I try to to help people and they hate me.

I mean, what's very clear from what you're saying is you had to run for your life. Do you feel, just a final question to you, do you feel like you'll ever be able to return? If Taliban, all Taliban is there, so I don't think so, because they will kill me. Because now I just read the news that the Minister of Interior Affairs is some killer from Guantanamo. You know, that he just escaped from Guantanamo and came to Afghanistan, and now he's a Minister of Interior. You can imagine. And I am not the person, a woman. Even, you know, I tell you something very short. Even if Taliban wasn't in Afghanistan, I wasn't a very welcome woman in Afghanistan.

A lot of people, they had problem with me and with my views and with my so much love for femininity and everything. So now Taliban just came. Plus, plus, they hate me. So, but if there is any possibility that I go there and I work and I can like be a voice of many, many women inside Afghanistan and they guarantee, okay,

we are not going to put you in jail or kill you because when you are killed or you are in jail or prison, you cannot do anything. because when you are killed or you are in jail or prison you cannot do anything but when you are alive you can do so i i am i am i am ready to go because this is my profession this is what i lived all my life so so i hope that international countries they just come to some conclusion i hope that this what happened what happened in Afghanistan, not become a civil war because when it becomes civil war, so it will destroy everything.

Well, let's keep in touch if we can. I know you're at the beginning of living in Kiev at the moment, and I know you're working with others at the moment to help others, but let's talk to you again if we can. Sara Karimi, thank you very much for talking to us today. And if you wish to see Sara, she'll actually be on BBC World News

at four o'clock later on today. And her letter is also online that she mentioned that she did a sort of global letter to the film industry about what was going on as the Taliban started to take Afghanistan. Well, she mentioned there about the power of culture, the power of film, and also how important her profession is. Many of you will be able to perhaps identify with that, even if it's not your line of work, but as someone who perhaps enjoys the arts and creativity. My next guest is someone who definitely fits into that camp as both someone who likes seeing it, I'm sure,

but also giving culture to others, giving that gift. And she also did something we often tell women to do better and promoted herself because Marianne Grove wrote into us at Women's Hour and asked if during Listeners Week we could talk to her about being the founder and artistic director of a travelling women's circus theatre group called Circo Rumbaba. And all that entails, as well as equality in the arts,

27 years ago, I believe, Marianne was working as a trained actor and she stopped performing in theatres, moved onto the street and brought the magic of circus and performing to many others. Marianne, good morning. Hello there. Thank you for writing in to us. You took it upon yourself to promote what you're doing. Yeah, a bit cheeky, but it has to be done.

I like cheeky women. I like them. Tell us why you went towards this, this performing circus troupe rather than perhaps a life on the stage. Well, on the stage, I didn't actually spend that long as what we might call a straight actor. But whilst being a straight actor, I realised that I was only ever going to reach a very small percentage of people. It's a very privileged experience to be able to go to the theatre and so I tried to think of a way that I could create theatre that would be free to the public and that would be more inclusive and where we could attract

incidental audiences and feel like it was actually making a difference to people's self-esteem and to share ideas in a more egalitarian way. And this resulted in Circo Rumbaba. I have to say, why is it called that? Obviously, I'm familiar with what a rumbaba is. It's just got a lovely rhythm. It's got a sort of connection to music

as well as a visuality of a circus tent. And yeah, I just think it's good to have an abstract name because you don't get bored of it as well. And you go around different cities, different streets and do what? We take a lot of different shows. We've got a huge variety of different shows and spectacle um we turn up in our van to events that have usually been booked um or organized by local councils so the whole premise of what we do is we provide free to the public um spectacle theater and circus so we turn up in our van usually early in the morning unload a big set build it ourselves get lots of advice from passing men often is that a

thing people say guys coming up telling you how to build it really really is yes i'm actually we we are quite good at it but we're always um open to you know some help um a bit of man a bit of mansplaining on the side perhaps at times yes oh and we meet all sorts of people while we're building because we turn a bit of sort of horrible old street often into something we hope quite magical and spectacular and then we go off and get changed come back um gather an audience often we have to do that bit as well and start our show our shows might last for sort of 45 minutes to an hour and they include all sorts of skills because in a way to keep um the audience there the audience often don't expect to suddenly

be involved in a huge narrative and spectacle so we have to keep them there we have to be very sensitive to each member of the audience those that don't seem involved we have to give special attention to and i was gonna say are you telling a story or is it a is it a sequence of of amazing things you can all do it's kind of both but it's not never about showing off I mean we do have a huge variety of skills but we try to make those skills incidental to the narrative so um it the skills are kind of there to hook people in and to illustrate our narrative, but it always has a narrative and often it's sort of issue based. So we have a show that's all about the environment. We have a show that's all about homelessness.

And yeah, we have a huge variety. And are you and you're now you started this when you were in your 20s, I believe you're now in your 50s. Are there things that you no longer attempt or are you still as physically capable as you once were? Asking because I'm now in my late 30s and definitely, you know, far more decrepit than I was in my 20s. Yeah. Yes. No, I'm in my sort of, I'm 57 and I used to be an aerialist, a trapeze artist as well. I gave that up after having children just because the maintenance of keeping it going is so high. But I still do acrobatics and globe walking, stilt walking,

very physical theatre, lots of falling out of windows and things like that. Brilliant. Love it. And it does become more painful. Does it? Okay. Definitely. Especially if you sustain an injury, I imagine as well. Yes. I broke my back falling off one of our rigs three years ago.

And actually, the specialist said, you know, considering your age, I don't feel that you should really go back to doing the acrobatic aspect. And that was like lighting a firework inside me. And you... I mean, but the other side of, I suppose, bringing all that joy and colour and energy to people's life and also mindful of, you know, because of the pandemic, it was already on decline, but lots of high streets not being necessarily the most joyous places at times anymore, but perhaps even more so with shops shutting. So you try and light up a place,

but what's it actually like living your life on the road? You know, what do you spend your time doing and where do you sleep? Good question. We spend a lot of time in our van listening to radio and podcasts and becoming quite hysterical. We did have a van a couple of years ago and the heater was stuck on high. So during the summer, that was quite tricky.

We drove around the country in our bras quite often. That might get a few more audience members as well if that extends to the performance. Yeah, we didn't do that in our performances, I can assure you. Fair enough. But yeah, we stay, we can be on the road we can do five different cities a week with five different shows so um and that involves a lot of

van unloading and a lot of logistics um we stay we used to stay in b&bs but we try more for travel lodges and things like that now because they're just more anonymous and you need your downtime because we do everything we build the sets we do the technical side we um prepare the costumes you know we warm up we do the shows then we de-rig then we load the van so and and how many are there of you and your troop um there are three of us in most shows because that's what we can sustain um all our almost all our work is arts council funded because we are booked by local councils so that these performances can be free to the public and so that people who might not have access to the arts um have more access to

the arts and and experience this inclusive um so shared experience which has been your your kind of driving force since since starting to do this now i i i've been told that you may have a treat for your fellow listeners uh shall i let you start to get ready because there are radio not being a visual medium i mean yes i've got got you on zoom here so i can see you uh in this in this era we live in now sadly few and few people allowed in the studio at the moment, but you are going to do what for us? Well, one of your producers asked me if I could do a trick

and I sort of scratched my chin and thought that's going to be interesting to do a trick on radio and then she suddenly said, oh you look, reading through the skills, she said you play the saw, so this seems more appropriate So you're going to saw for us? A proper saw which can saw

actual locks right and take it take it away marianne i'll do my best okay Great. That's enough. That's enough. It's going in and out, the sound, not just the saw. Thank you. I'll applaud. It's a pleasure. I've never had anybody saw for me on the radio before

and possibly none of our listeners have either. So a treat, an audio treat this morning. Marianne, thank you so much for getting in touch. Great to talk to you. Thanks for having me on such an iconic programme. Well, and you're doing iconic work. And Circo Rumbaba, you can look them up. And I'm sure some of you may have already seen

Marianne's work with her troupe. And lovely that, you know, you brought your story to us during Listener Week. Marianne Grove there. How many of you getting in touch with us off the back of my question around climate anxiety and whether you feel you can do something? And this is a huge subject, I have to say, in our inbox. Extinction Rebellion, of course, continuing, as you're hearing in the news, its climate protests in London today. This is part of a two-week experience for those campaigners, if I could put it like that. It will be a headache for certainly the law authorities and the police trying to deal with this. We'll get to that in just a moment. The campaign group plans to keep going until the end of next week and have warned to expect disruption. One of our listeners, Fiona from Kendall, got in touch to say that she's joined the

group aged 65 and was at the protest on Monday. She's due to return next week. This is part of her email. I and thousands of women will be in London on Monday, 23rd of August in Trafalgar Square at the start of two weeks of the Extinction Rebellion protest. I would love for you to cover the women involved in the climate crisis debate and protests and focus on how it will affect our children and grandchildren.

I have been in real despair for years, listening to the lacklustre, timid BBC coverage of the climate. Only since the latest IPCC, Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, report, has it stepped up its game and started to help audiences understand that it has begun and it is actually an existential threat. How many people actually understand what that means?

I joined Extinction Rebellion because I'm frightened for my granddaughter's future, and I find that fear more bearable when I feel I'm doing something and that I'm with people who share my fears. I'm also angry about the slowness of the government and media to spell out the implications of the science. Well, it is Listeners Week. I am listening. Fiona is with me. Good morning. Hi. Hello. Thank you for joining us today. You say it's actually your granddaughter that motivated you to join Extinction Rebellion. Was there a moment where you thought this is what I need to do? Yes, she's definitely in the mix. I was already pretty concerned about all of this. And then my

granddaughter appeared and weaved the magic that grandchildren do where you start to think that as you get older one of the biggest consolations is this beautiful child and you just want the best for them and you feel like a mum as well, like yourself. You want to protect them. And my sense of helplessness that I can't protect her from what's coming down the line. And this isn't just about my grandchild. The UNICEF report that came out a few days ago said there's a billion children right now facing the impact of climate change in terms of just access to water, air, the fundamentals. And I'm appalled that as a human race, we have got to this point where children are in such danger and the future. I was going to say, Fiona, have you protested before? Is this something you've done throughout your life?

I have protested before. I got involved in WASPI women. I'm a bit cross with the BBC about WASPI women, but that's another story. You're talking about pensions there and what's going on. Yeah, yeah. We have covered that a great deal, especially on Women's Hour, but we can come to that another time, you're right,

because I know you want the focus to be on the climate in this. It's been striking as well. And you tell me how it was on Monday. But it's been striking that a lot of the people are over a certain age. People have been described as the grey greens. Why do you think that might be? Well, I think possibly what i've just said really you want to leave the planet feeling you know you're looking ahead we haven't got that long left and uh sorry but you feel you want to leave the planet or it's a consolation it's a massive consolation as you let go of your life to think life is going to flourish and i'm scared that it's not going to flourish. I'm scared that the future

for my grandchild, and I'm really sorry I'm to say this, because this is the other awful dilemma. You feel such a doom merchant here. But I want to say to you, why are people asking me why I'm in the street? I want to say to you and to everybody who hasn't got out into the street, why aren't you there? Well, they might not think protest is the best way of doing it. It doesn't mean that they don't believe what you're saying. There are different ways to protest, and it seems to me there aren't enough people doing that.

There's ways to vote, which are a form of protest. Are people really happy with what this government is doing? We have one of the most shambolic governments ever at a time when we need governments to be planning ahead and to be taking on the problems. Our government is late with everything. I don't trust them with this. Well, the majority certainly of voters, of those who voted,

did want this government. And there will be, of course, another time to vote, as you say, and perhaps use it in a way that you may or may not be happy. But there will, of course, be government, people who do support this government around the climate because of COP26 coming and some of the promises made there. But I'm actually quite keen, and we can talk more about that, but I'm quite keen to understand whether you think,

especially in light of COVID, that these demonstrations are wise and will have the desired effect. Because of course, people are trying to get back to work. And it's been a rotten time for a whole other reason that wasn't there when Extinction Rebellion came to prominence. I think one of the problems with the situation that we're in is how to protest, to go back to that protest idea. And despite the nuisance and despite the problems that we cause, we're very apologetic about that. We feel driven to do it. There doesn't seem to be any other way of getting the message across. I was at home in the first protest, the one where it was one very warm Easter, I think. And I monitored, I gave myself the role of monitoring the media.

And it started so slow, it was hardly covered. By the end of the third night, when the arrest numbers started to increase, XR were on Newsnight, we were getting fantastic interviews, fantastic coverage, and people were joining XR were on Newsnight. We were getting fantastic interviews, fantastic coverage. And people were joining XR as well and starting to get interested in what we were doing. And what we find is whenever we do actions like this, yes, we do hack off a lot of people. But on the other hand, membership increases and awareness increases. Are you prepared to be arrested? I haven't been yet. Are you prepared to be,? I haven't been yet.

Are you prepared to be, do you think? Yes, I am. I have taken risks that might have led to arrest, but I've got a lot of brave friends out there today, some of whom are being arrested. Some of Southlake's XR have already been cleared from the streets and threatened with arrest. I ask that because, of course, it's been calculated how much money this has cost the taxpayer.

£50 million so far. That's the calculation from the police, from the gold commander, Rachel Williams. They would also argue it takes them away from looking after those who are suffering domestic violence, who are suffering violence in the streets in other ways. You say very apologetic about that, but especially after the pandemic, do you think that there is a concern that people will find you more of a nuisance than otherwise?

I think there will always be people who find us a nuisance. But if they were to actually engage with what is coming down the line, the nuisance of us in the streets would start to pale into insignificance. One of the problems we've got is getting people to engage, to move beyond the science, to see the implications of it for their children and their grandchildren. On the money side, I would just like to say that we have spent, as a country, £568 million supporting fossil fuels, investing in fossil fuels since Paris. And that's investing in fossil fuels abroad in countries where the biggest impact of climate change and the climate crisis is going to be felt.

The irony that that's from our taxpayers' money. That's the aid budget propping up the fossil fuel industry. That was shocking to me. Let me bring in Marion Mulcher, who is also part of Extinction Rebellion. I believe, Marion, you were arrested on Monday, but not charged. Yes, I was arrested on Monday.

And yes, I did have a... I was released under investigation. Released under... OK. For a public order offence. What were you doing when you were arrested? I was breaking a section 14. I had been locked on in a tube in the St Martins in Cranbourne Street.

So lying down and... I was lying down in the road, yes. Actually, I was attached to a suitcase full of concrete. And I was reading the detail of that and I wondered from your perspective, do you think that changes anyone's mind? That in itself doesn't change anyone's mind. My objective for that day was to be part of a team who are creating a space for where people could come to the table to talk. And you will have seen perhaps the pictures of the large pink table that was erected. So that was my role on the day, to help make that space. Because at the moment, we don't really have a space where people are talking about

climate change. And as Fiona has so very eloquently put, you know, there is so much and there is so much to do that we really need to start talking about it. We need to get beyond the politics and stuff and really get get people to the table and have some crisis talks. And that is our aim for this rebellion. What would you say, though, to people who who do not think this is the right way to do it, who are angered by you wasting those police officers time? What would you say, though, to people who do not think this is the right way to do it, who are angered by you wasting those police officers' time? They may well be angered, but I think that they're probably going to be far more angered when their houses are flooded or they can't get the nice food that they like in the supermarket because crops have failed.

They might still be angry about that, sorry, if I can, be they might still be angry about that sorry if i can but they might still be angry about that but they might not think you lying on the road with your arm in a suitcase in concrete is is useful they may not think that but then extinction rebellion we say we're not here to be liked we're here to draw attention to the problem so it isn't really about me it's about the problem that we've got of climate and ecological emergency not being addressed. Do you think, though, that your messages are clear enough? We were thinking about this before I was talking about this with other people working on this matter who are very familiar with it. And they were talking about, of course, some compare Extinction Rebellion to the suffragettes.

But of course, that was a very clear slogan, votes for women. The concern is there but do you think people know what you want clearly enough i think that people would know very clearly what we wanted if we actually got reported more accurately in the media i think that would be a first step but our first our first demand is that the government should and the authorities and everybody should tell the truth about the crisis that we're in. Do you think you've got a slogan that cuts through to people or a line that cuts through in what you actually want?

Do you think if you went up to a load of people on the street... We're not actually solutionary. We're not saying. We don't know what the solutions are. We're just ordinary people out here. We can see there's massive problems and we can't solve them all. We're not here to say what people should do um and our third demand is that we should move beyond the traditional politics of left and right and the sort of you know some of the playground stuff that we see going on

and get ordinary people to talk and work together in citizens assemblies, which is a bit like a jury process, and get them to come up with the solutions that work for ordinary people, that people can get behind. We're going to hear a potential solution in just a moment. I'll come to that. So I understand your task is to... It's about the economic side of it. But your task is to raise awareness of the issue being taken seriously.

And get people to the table. Get people to the table. Marion Maltzer, thank you. Can I just give the final word to you, Fiona, in terms of people on the ground? There's a message that's just come in here from one of our listeners. He says, Extinction Rebellion protesters should face unlimited fines.

When these middle-class layabouts see their savings hit, they might start to see sense. What do you make of that? And how do you afford to do what you do? Is it because you're retired? I am. I'm a retired teacher. What I say back to that is, I have a right to be very angry about how my pensions, my pension that I'm being paid is invested and it's currently being invested in fossil fuels and I have every right to fight against that for the future of my grandchild and I also would say to anybody who feels angry with XR do you actually understand what is meant by code red and an existential threat are you taking that seriously because I am it's am. It's another message here as well. To be fair, you might also enjoy knowing the Twitter name of this person.

They're called Grumpy Old Man. And they say, I find the methods of extinction rebellion to have the reverse effect. I do what I can by running a business focused on energy efficiency. It has a direct effect rather than sitting in a road. And that's true and that's fantastic. However, we need systemic change for real impact. And by us all retreating into our homes or our businesses and doing everything we can, that's fantastic. And we will have results, but we need systemic global change to address this. So you're going back out to the protests later in the year? Later in the year? Excuse me, later in the week?

Probably later in the year as well. Perhaps not, though. Perhaps things will change. Perhaps we will get our citizens' assemblies. Yes, I will. I'll be going next week. Fiona, thanks very much for writing into the programme and for coming on. And thank you there. We were just hearing from Marion Maltzer as well.

I did mention solutions, but I also mentioned climate anxiety, many messages to that effect. One psychoanalyst called Phoebe Whelan emailed Women's Art to say she's, quote, increasingly seeing clients from all walks of life who feel deep existential anxiety about the climate. She asked us to invite the mental health professional Sally Weintraub onto the programme, whose new book on the psychological roots of the climate crisis has just been published. And many other listeners in terms of solutions asked us to speak to Kate Raworth, a prominent eco-economist whose work on so-called donut economics has helped them find some hope. A woman called Pam wrote in to say that Kate's book was her favourite lockdown read. She said, for me, it inspired hope to a degree I haven't felt for many years.

I thought I was doomed to a cynical viewpoint of politics and capitalism. And Kate has brought together many ideas that make the incredible possible. I'll speak to Kate Raworth in just a moment. But Sally Wainthrope, let me come to you first. There were some tough emails that came in about how people are feeling about this. Yes, indeed. And I think climate anxiety is on the rise. And the first thing to say about it is that actually, it's realistic on the whole. Once you really take this problem seriously, why wouldn't you be feeling anxious about it for you and for

others, and also for children and grandchildren across the world, actually. So it's a realistic human response to a real emergency. Sometimes it can be overwhelming. And then how do we cope with it? But what I'd say about that is that we need far more spaces to be talking together about how we can manage our feelings about this. You know, people can feel very isolated and helpless, worrying alone, and those people include children.

And I'd like to say that there is emerging understanding that very often children are more in touch with what's happening to the planet, even than a lot of the grown-ups. What would you say, and that is an interesting point, maybe something we'll explore at a different point, but what do you say to those who are also struggling perhaps with family members who don't care at all and they care deeply? We all struggle with that more or less, I think. And what I want to add into that is that I think there's another kind of struggle, which is why this goes below party politics. We struggle with ourselves. I think the key thing to understand is that we're conflicted.

Humans are conflicted beings. You know, we have a side of us that cares and the side of us that doesn't care. Question is which side gets the upper hand, you know, in our minds, in our social groups and in government process. You know, so I think that that struggle is not going away. And sometimes I find that if one just stays with it, some people are impossible to talk to, in my experience. They've got a completely fixed view and they don't want to know and they're screening something out. But also sometimes that's because people are fragile and we need to bear that in mind. And sometimes anxieties can be too much to bear and we don't know why. You know, we can't just muscle in and, you know, people have to take their own time and so on and so forth. So I think sometimes one gives up on a conversation.

But sometimes if you just stick in there and don't get accusatory, it doesn't help. Yes. Well, this is now reminding me of a conversation about, you know, friends and family that won't get vaccinated in some of the techniques that people have been trying to deploy. Let me bring, Sally, thank you for that. Let me bring in Kate Raworth into this at the point. I've got a message here saying climate anxiety is definitely something I can identify with. But personally, I only know a handful of people who've decided to make changes to the way they live in order to reduce their carbon footprint. And another one from Georgia here says, I'm not in the least bit concerned about climate change. The climate has always changed. Too many scientists and organisations making a hell of a lot of money out of this complete nonsense.

Kate, that's what you're up against in terms of some people's views. Can I get your take on, well, can you share with us your take on economics? I mentioned your theory, donut economics. Yes, and I'd like to say that I was at the Extinction Rebellion protest yesterday in London because as an economist, I stand firmly in solidarity with Extinction Rebellion. I stand for 21st century economics, right? And we need women to be part of writing economics this time round. Last century and the centuries before, it was all written by men. Somehow they left out the planet. So the first principle of 21st century economics is to protect the life support systems of the living planet on which we depend. It's the only known one in the universe.

I don't know if you can hear my voice shaking, but I'm actually very, very moved by this program and by all the people contributing today. We need to protect the life support systems of our planet. The scientists, and by the way there are many brilliant women female climate scientists some of whom i work with at oxford university who are dedicating hours of voluntary time week on week they're not being paid for this it is voluntary time that they are putting into documenting the climate science that is appallingly clear the world's governments have just signed off every single line of that science that says we are destroying the life support systems of our planet. Now, the UK government has invited the world's governments to these shores in November to take action on the most critical

negotiations of this decade, which will shape this century. And yesterday I went with my 12-year-old daughter into London because the government of the UK is totally failing to show the leadership, the ambition and the vision and the action required right now. And if the UK doesn't show leadership when it's the host, the world will not act. So every time I present about donut economics, the book I wrote, people, somebody in the audience will put up their hand and it's often a woman and will say, what can I do? I'm an ordinary person. What can I do? There's so much we can each do in our own lives, how we eat, how we shop, how we travel, how we take a holiday, how we power our homes, how we bank, how we invest, how we divest, but how we protest.

And there is a long history, a proud history from the suffragettes through the Martin Luther King and the civil rights through to Mahatma Gandhi and the decolonization movement. And these are the people who we call the heroes of the 20th century. And they're on the walls of every classroom. And yet when it comes to our own time at our own extraordinary crisis, people are angry and saying, why are you causing a traffic jam? We have to step back and see that we are in the moment of an existential crisis where we are bringing about unprecedented, irreversible changes to this living planet. And if we don't act now, there will be so much higher costs for police, for all of us, for emergency services. We are breaking down the civilization that we know. That is why, as an economist, I stand with this movement.

I don't know what else to do. I've campaigned on this for over a decade, and the governments are not listening on the scale that they need to. And I'm very aware you've said the phrase, I've said it, donut economics. For people who do not know what that means, and I can tell how much this means to you, I just don't want to leave anyone in the dark, you have come up with a solution.

Some places are even trying to implement it and starting to implement it at the moment. What does that mean, donut economics? Yes, so think of a donut, the kind with a hole in the middle, Some places are even trying to implement it and starting to implement it at the moment. What does that mean, donut economics? Yes. So think of a donut, the kind with a hole in the middle. The vision of the donut is to leave nobody in the hole in the middle of the donut. That's where people are falling short in the essentials of life. Don't leave anybody without food, water, health care, housing, education.

This is totally uncontroversial. The world's governments have signed up to it in the Sustainable Development Goals. But as we as humanity collectively use Earth's resources to meet our needs, we use pressure on the planet and we must make sure we also don't go beyond the outer ring of the donut. That's where we cause climate breakdown. That's where we acidify the oceans, where we create a hole in the ozone layer.

We break down the web of life. And that's what the industrial economy that we've inherited has been doing and it has missed out the unpaid care economy that is the center and has been the center of women's work it it's had no female input for centuries and at last women are becoming economists and bringing unpaid caring work and bringing the living planet and i have to say people of color are becoming economists and decolonizing economics at the same time. Working class people are becoming economists and saying we need to

think about people who live off their daily wage and not only those who own capital. It's so important that we diversify economics so that everyone's perspective is taken into account. And that's what I aim to do in the book Donut Economics. I have to say it's had so much more traction than I ever imagined it would have. And I know that's because connecting back to what Sally and Fiona and Marion have been saying, people are searching for something to stand for. And I stand with Extinction Rebellion against fossil fuels and against extinction. But we all want to stand for something because that is where we get hope. And sometimes the most powerful form of protest is to propose something new.

And I know that's why it's got traction. Some governments, some places, the city of Amsterdam, Barcelona, Barbados, places are adopting it. And that's where you have brilliant progressive... They're adopting it, if I may, they're adopting it in the way and how they can, within the parameters they have. But the question and the challenge for you has always been about how to get businesses around the world

to change the way that they operate and sectors, whole sectors to change the way they do business because it's not just about a government or a council. Have you got hope that there is going to be that sort of shift? Because, you know, there are criticisms that what you're proposing is, people have said it's too idealistic. This is the only living planet in the universe. If we can't find ways to save ourselves through reinventing the future, then I don't want to sit with the people who say it's too late.

We're too many. It's too hard. It's too idealistic. They are the ones still sitting on the sofa. I stand with the people. They also can be in charge. You know, there's some of the people oh yes absolutely and familiar with the with you know the realities the financial realities that confront them oh well then we we we remake financial reality the beautiful thing is that finance is a totally human construct we invented it and so we can reinvent it what we can't invent are the laws of the living planet we work with those and so we can reinvent it. What we can't invent are the laws of the living planet. We work with those. And so we need to create an economy and finance system that's in service to life.

And I know that's big and it's much easier to say than it is to do. But yesterday I was standing literally in front of a police line. I don't want to be on the wrong side of the law at all. But I really, really don't want to be on the wrong side of climate change. And so I stand with everybody who's doing whatever they can, whether they're a city councillor or an MP or a leader or a business worker or a CEO or a community organiser or a parent at the school gates.

Every one of us has influence in the networks that we can influence. And that's why people find hope and inspiration taking action. Kate, very well. It's our listeners week and we do have another subject, I promised that we would get to for a listener

I'd love to have you back with some politicians and those on the line of this who will probably be fronting up for COP26 later this year. I hope you'll come back onto Women's Hour and we can perhaps get more into the reality of that. Thank you very much for joining us today. To you Kate Roworth

and to Sally Waintraub and a fascinating discussion also to hear from some of those who've been out protesting and why they've done so. And many messages about climate anxiety. And some actually saying how depressing they're finding it that after the pandemic, the idea we're going to get back to how things were before. It's an opportunity potentially for change.

But one of our listeners, Lauren, emailed in about her struggle talking about local councils and help and caring to get a diagnosis for her son. And at the moment, Lauren, I believe you're still in the waiting period. Is that right? To find out what's what? Yeah, we're on an ASD pathway. So he's had a number of assessments and they've decided that he's got enough traits that we need to do more investigation. And then all the people get together. So the paediatrician, they take reports from the school or whether they're going to watch and wait. We're very much waiting.

Your line, Lauren, I'm so sorry and annoyed to say this. Oh, sorry. It's slightly difficult. But yes, you're sort of in this waiting and watching period, from what I can gather. And you wrote into the programme asking about when you are in this period, how to talk to friends and family, how to deal with this. And I've also got on the line, Selina Begley, the Scottish Partnership Engagement Manager at Family Fund UK,

which is a charity specialising in support for families with disabled children and children with special needs. Let me go to you now, just in case hopefully Lauren's line can get a bit better. Selina, what advice do you have for those who are in the waiting period? So I wouldn't say advice because I wouldn't put myself forward as an expert, but I have worked with families of disabled children and young people for well over 20 years, and that's been my privilege. The frustrating thing is that quite often I'm still hearing the same things from families

that I heard over 20 years ago, and that includes the bewilderment that they often feel and the confusion trying to navigate systems which are sometimes entirely new to them, jargon that's new to them, working with professionals that are new to them and trying to understand all of that. We're a grant making charity, we provided over 110,000 grants to families of disabled children last year,

but we also recognise that families have got much wider needs in terms of the practical and emotional support that they need in order to be sustained as parent carers because we recognize that parents of disabled children young people have a caring role above and beyond that that parents would normally expect to have they have additional tasks to undertake they have to attend meetings and appointments they have to be be a taxi driver, an organiser, a therapist. They have to learn about things that they perhaps never expected to learn about and all amongst emotional turmoil. And so what I would say is don't wait for that assessment.

We know from our research that things have been delayed further through COVID and families were quite often waiting long periods of time for assessment to be completed anyway so what I would say is in that period it's important that you think about what is going to sustain you and your family during that time and beyond and those things will be good accurate information. A key element of what we do is signpost trusted organisations that can provide expert advice and support in terms of specific conditions in terms of your rights and entitlements both for your child as a disabled child and siblings so that i'm just keen i've only got a couple of minutes

can i just signpost a website the gov.uk website does have on it and you can go in there look at disabled people carers and there's a link if you have a disabled child help if you have a disabled child and that will lead you to your local council we will put that on the woman's our website lauren let me give the final word to you some advice there from selena and don't wait you know get get support now if you can are you able to do that do you think Lauren yeah definitely um and I also feel like well I'd echo what she says but also that talk to your friends and it's hard and at first when you hear your child's not developing normally you kind of want to bury your head in the sand cry and say la la la it's not happening but do reach out and the more you talk to people the

more you find out other people's stories and you don't feel so alone I think the hardest thing this year has been feeling really alone um with dealing with it and processing it and I waited for a long time thinking oh well when I get a diagnosis then I'll tell people but that wait can be a year two years and in that time you're dealing with that child and that beautiful beautiful baby that you love so just speak to people and it's hard. You might cry and you might strike out and people might not say very encouraging things. But for everyone that says not very encouraging things, someone will say something supportive

or put you in touch with another friend or they might say, oh, have you heard of Ruby's Fund? Also, just by talking today, I mean, I know you're a listener. That's the whole point of ListenerWe. But thank you for trusting us with your story. And I hope you feel the embrace of the Woman's Hour family around you. And thank you for opening up that conversation for people this morning. Lauren, Selina, thank you to all of you today for your company.

I'll be back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Greg Jenner, and I'm here to tell you that You're Dead to Me is back for a fourth series. Hooray! Yes, we are a comedy show that takes history seriously.

Each episode, I'm joined by a top historian who knows all there is to know about a particular piece of the past, and a top stand-up comedian who is eager to learn more. And we have a host of brand-new episodes coming up, including episodes on Ivan the Terrible, Nell Gwynne and Ramesses the Great. And we'll a host of brand new episodes coming up, including episodes on Ivan the Terrible, Nell Gwynn and Ramesses the Great. And we'll be joined by comedians including Sally Phillips, Jessica Knappett, Olga Koch and Sophie Duker,

amongst many other fantastic names. So if you want to laugh and learn, then search for You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

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