Woman's Hour - Listener Week: Sex in your 70s, Risky sports, Cost of men and women's haircuts

Episode Date: August 23, 2024

Listener Week is when all the topics, interviews and discussions are chosen by YOU!Woman's Hour listener Elaine asked the programme to discuss the issue of having sex in later life. Elaine is in her seventies and her partner would like to resume a sexual relationship. They are both negotiating medical conditions and she feels reluctant. Elaine would like to know what is typical or normal in your seventies. Sex and relationship therapist Charlene Douglas and Dr Clare Gerada, former President of the Royal College of General Practitioners, explain the medical and emotional challenges around intimacy in later life and the accommodations that can be made if older couples want to have sex.Listener Teigan Banks got in touch. ‘I would love to talk about how losing my mum at 11 has led to attachment to maternal figures throughout my life and sometimes this can be negative. In all the grief media I see this is something I never see spoken about and it can be quite isolating. I’m sure other people who have lost parents have experienced similar things. I’m 21 now and this is something I still struggle with. I can feel guilty for these attachments as I feel like I’m forgetting my own mum. But knowing these people can’t really replace my mum or be that for me.’ Anita is joined by Teigan to talk about these issues and also by Julia Samuel, a psychotherapist, the author of Grief Works. Why can women’s haircuts cost more than men’s, at the same salon? One listener has asked us to find out. Anita is joined by Caroline Larissey, chief executive of the National Hair and Beauty Federation, a trade organisation for the hair, barbering and beauty industries, and equality lawyer Elizabeth McGlone, who has short hair.Listener Kitty Dowry wanted us to take a look at so called 'risky' sports, and to encourage us all to look at them in a different way. Kitty is a climber; she has been doing it for 10 years and wants to see more women give it a go, even those who might have written it off for fear of it being too dangerous. Kitty joins Anita, as does Hazel Findlay, a professional climber and coach. Listener Ameya is a 20 year old singer-songwriter. She joins Anita to talk about her music, explain how her songs represent her neurodiversity, and discuss why it’s important for her, as a British-Indian woman, to break into the mainstream and raise awareness of autism.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning, welcome to the programme We've Made It to Friday and our very last Listener Week programme. So I'd like to start by just saying a massive thank you from myself, Nuala and the entire team for sending us your brilliant suggestions to discuss. It really has been such an interesting, meaningful and fun week. So please don't stop sending us your ideas. Anyway, it's not over yet. There's an entire programme ahead of us for more fascinating topics

set by you. So what do we have in store today? Sex in later life. Elaine, who's in her 70s, got in touch with us to say her partner, who's also in his 70s, wants to resume a sexual relationship, but she's unsure. We have a GP and a sex therapist on to help come up with solutions for her predicament. So feel free to share your own experiences. The text number 84844. 21-year-old listener Tegan got in touch. She lost her mother when she was only 11.

And she wants us to talk about her attachment to maternal figures throughout her life. Psychotherapist Julia Samuel will be talking to her live on the programme. And would you say you're a sporty risk taker? Kitty Dowry is a climber and wants to change our perception of so-called risky sports. She'll be joined by one of her climbing heroes, Hazel Findlay. So are you a climber, a mountaineer or a boulderer? How about other risky sports? Get in touch. We'd love to hear your experiences.

And Amaya is a 20-year-old British Indian singer-songwriter who's also on the autistic spectrum. I'll be talking to her about her life. And one of you simply got in touch because you wanted us to discuss why women's haircuts seem to cost more than men's. Oh, it's going to be a good programme. The way that you can get in touch with us is all the usual ways. The text number is 84844. You can email me via our website or you can WhatsApp us on 03700 100 444. And on social media, we are at BBC Woman's Hour. So let's begin. Listener Elaine has got in touch asking to discuss sex and intimacy in later life. She's in her 70s and her partner, who's also in his 70s, would like to resume a sexual relationship.

They're both negotiating medical conditions and she has agreed to give sex a try, but is feeling reluctant and wondering how older couples make adjustments. It goes without saying, but just to reiterate, we are about to have quite a frank discussion about sex. Let's hear Elaine's email, which has been voiced by an actor. I'm 72 and my long-term partner is 78. Recently, he said he wants to resume a sexual relationship and this has caused some conflict. We don't live together and I am content to continue with a mutually supportive friendship but he's made it clear that he wants intimacy. I don't know what is normal or typical for heterosexual couples in their 70s and whether either of us is being unreasonable.

It seems to me that intercourse is normal when we're younger and it's great to be able to have spontaneous sex but for older women after the menopause the need for planning or preparation is a disincentive. We both have medical conditions that commonly inhibit sex in later life. In my case I was diagnosed with vaginal atrophy 10 years ago. I have a prescription for oestrogen, estriol cream, to insert into my vagina weekly, but a vaginal lubricant like silk is also needed for intercourse. My partner has had erectile dysfunction for a couple of years. He recently discussed this with his GP, who has confirmed he is OK to try Viagra.

Neither of us is in perfect health. We last had intercourse about three years ago before he had health issues, which now seem to have stabilised. Both of us have osteoarthritis. I had a hip replacement 14 years ago, which left me with some limitation in mobility, and I am wary of physical activity. We've agreed to try the Viagra and silk combination at the weekend, but I'm not feeling very enthusiastic about it the words of Elaine there and if you'd like to get in touch you remember you can remain anonymous the text number is 84844 if you want to ask questions or share

your experience to talk about negotiating sex in your 70s and beyond I'm joined by Dr Claire Gerada former president of the Royal College of General Practitioners and by Charlene Douglas, who is a sex and relationship therapist and the author of Come Closer, Everything You Ever Wanted to Ask a Sex and Relationship Therapist. Claire, Charlene, welcome to Woman's Hour. Charlene, I'm going to come straight to you. Obviously, there's physical issues, but also emotional ones. Let's start by just hearing what you'd say to Elaine if she was your client. I think, you know, you can really hear Elaine's frustration and desire to to be connected to her new to her partner. And, you know, just so that they feel more comfortable. I will say, though, that I think for a lot of people, the assumption that we make is just because you're like in your 70s or your 80s that you're not up for having sex.

And we know that a lot of people during those ages do actually have sex and and really enjoy sex but it is important to take into consideration the aging process and what adjustments might need to be made in order that sex is pleasurable which is what it's supposed to be so when you say more conversations yes that word conversations what would you say to elaine what advice would you give her where how do you even begin like she's obviously got in touch with us because she doesn't know how to maybe broach the subject with him. I think it's about really expressing to your partner what you'd want more of, you know, at this stage. You know, you don't always have to say, I don't want to have sexual intercourse.

You can just say at this stage, I'd be really comfortable with, you know, maybe us starting with a massage, just spending more quality time together, getting to know one another a little bit more. And, you know, how would you feel about us having a conversation to discuss like some of our physical issues? Because that will play a part in how much we really enjoy this. So I think you want to be using positive language. So your partner doesn't feel like you don't desire them or you don't want to have sex. But it's important that you also hold your own boundary in terms of what is important to you, because ultimately it's about pleasure. Is this something that you talk to couples about a lot in your work? Yeah, absolutely. Do you see couples in their 70s and 80s?

Absolutely, I do. And, you know, I think for a lot of us, the ageing process sort of creeps up on us. And before you know it, you're kind of older, you're wearing glasses or you're seeing physical issues happening within your body. And we're not always prepared for that. And it can be a bit of a shock to the system, particularly when you're in your 20s and 30s, you're used to swinging from the chandeliers and doing all that kind of stuff. So it can be a bit challenging and difficult. But there's lots of couples I work with that have amazing sex it just sometimes mean that they may have to adjust things and remember you know on one given

day you might be able to do one thing but then another day your body might need something different and it is about listening to what your body needs in the moment don't force your body to do something that it's not ready for. I can see there's a question that's coming already which we'll come to if you do have a question 84844 again you can remain anonymous we've got some experts with us and i will put your questions to them i'm going to bring uh dame claire girarda in because let's talk about the medical aspects um talk us through what elaine uh explained to us she's got vaginal atrophy what is that and how could it affect your sex life right two or three things actually so she's got vaginal atrophy what is that and how could it affect your sex life right two or three things actually so she's got vaginal atrophy which is a what happens in post-menopausal women uh which is dryness of the vagina but it's it's more than just dryness

if when i examine women with vaginal atrophy what it means is that it's very difficult to insert a speculum or even a finger it tends to happen uh in women who post-menopausally oestrogen and hrt which is can offset it but actually the most important part of offsetting a vagina which is the normal process of aging is actually regular sex so it's actually continuing to have sex way you know not stopping and starting and I can always tell when I examine women who is having regular sexual intercourse and who is not by the ease of being able to do a vaginal examination. She's also got problems, she said, with her hips.

Mechanically, that makes it difficult because there's several positions that she won't be able to get into. And then there's the thing that her husband or partner is is impotent so he has to use viagra i suspect he can't ejaculate so you've also got the the fatigue for him he may be able to get an erection uh but he probably can't ejaculate and he may also have himself health problems such as diabetes there's also the you touched on it which is and i don't know whether she actually said this in the email but she said something about intimacy and wanting sex yes intimacy is not the same thing now of course sex does involve intimacy but intimacy involves holding hands touching kissing uh candlelit

dinners there's much more to to intimacy than than penetrative sexual intercourse and also finally and this is not me as a doctor, but as a woman, as an older woman, I mean, the days when sex became a duty, I thought that with Victorians. And so she has to want to have a sexual relationship. Now she can, there are ways she can improve the chances of it. I mean, she can, she'll be very dry and very tight inside so what can she

do about that vaginal dilators so and maybe they can use it together as some form of foreplay over a number of weeks it's not going to happen in days but you can either go to your gp and get dilators prescribed or you can buy them on the internet with with lubricants and with she's on that estrogen cream so there are ways that she can improve it. But there's also the loss of libido, which sadly happens as men and women age, more so for women, which can't really be reversed by HRT, can be reversed by intimacy and actually, you know, to be crude, by turning a woman on.

But there are natural biological processes that go on, I'm afraid, post-menopausal. And that's where Charlene steps in to work on the other stuff. I actually really enjoy the tag team between the two of you here. So let's pick up on a couple of things that Claire said there. It is important to say that women shouldn't feel obliged to have sex. Absolutely. But, you know, we can say that, but I think the pressure is still there. I think that society puts that kind of pressure on us that when you're in a, in particular, a heterosexual relationship,

that you have to, quote unquote, have sex. The problem with... And this is a different generation we're talking about. Right, where it was probably even more kind of within their culture that this is what you do. The problem with that, though, is that when you feel pressured to have sex for the sake of the relationship, you might do it, your body might play a game. But what then happens before you know it, you know,

you're, you know, a few days down the line, you've got to do it again. And you want it to be an experience where you have fun, where it's pleasurable for you, where you're having a laugh. I think sometimes we see sex as this really serious chore that we have to do, as opposed to something pleasurable and fun and playful. I think it's about bringing it back to that again. And what about intimacy? Another good point. Yeah, really, really good point. I think that so many of us, we just jump straight to the sexual intercourse. But actually, there's so much fun in the journey, you know, in doing other things as well. You know, there's massage, you know, you can do like more intentional massage. We know, for example, if you feel comfortable with

your partner, and you've had this kind of conversation that, you know, maybe one partner can have a blindfold on. So when you're being massaged, it kind of heightens other senses when one sense is shut down. So there's other things that the body can do that are amazing that don't always need to include sexual intercourse. Claire, some research funded by Age UK in 2015 found that nearly a third of women in their 70s are sexually active. Do you see a lot of older women in your practice who want to talk about negotiating sex yes and it's especially uh not necessarily women in their 70s but women in their 60s the loss of oestrogen starts to really hit even if you are taking HRT and a lot of women that I see want to talk about

sex and we talk about it but not necessarily in their 70s there are women in their 70s or even their 80s who continue to have a sexual a penetrative sexual relationship and that's absolutely lovely but what is normal we don't know it's certainly and I think Charlene said that it's you know the idea of having sex every day when you're in your 70s is probably a wishful thinking but you can certainly have a penetrative sexual relationship if I say one thing to women the most as I said right at the start the most if you want to continue having sex into your 60s 70s and even 80s then regular sex is what you have to have because that keeps things lubricated that keeps the body's natural estrogens for what they are going that

keeps the desire going so it really is about keeping at it building it into your life and we've got loads of messages coming in so i'm going to bring some of these in uh a message here uh thank you so much for covering this hope uh does over even start starting the conversation i'm a man 75 and deeply i miss this connection my partner seems utterly disinterested okay this, this is good. We've heard from a man. What can he do? It's lovely.

Again, it really goes back to that C word of communication. You know, it's about having a conversation with your partner and saying, you know, I'd really like to introduce more intimacy into our relationship. I always say that when you want to have a bit of a difficult conversation, then maybe it might be better to be in like a neutral space. So go for a nice walk somewhere or a nice drive and kind of organically mentioning it and seeing what your partner's views are. But taking it slowly, build on emotional intimacy first, you know, sharing your vulnerabilities, having a laugh together, connecting in that way. Introduce more physical affection. So you get the

build up. We know there are like lots of fun resources like sex quiz cards where you can ask each other questions, you can just make it fun. I think we need to take the pressure off having, you know, sexual intercourse, you know, as a way of defining the relationship as being okay or being perfect and instead just go back to having fun again. Claire, Elaine also mentioned in the email that her partner has erectile dysfunction. That's something that can make a difference to sex in later life, isn't it? Well, of course it can. And there's certainly several physical issues that can cause that, including probably most importantly diabetes, though age itself can cause erectile

dysfunction and i think you mentioned that gp has given him viagra which can help of course it can but it's uh it's not the whole answer what i'd also say and it's you know masturbation you can mutually masturbate each other there's not a problem there are other ways of having having intercourse rather than penetrative intercourse so there are lots of issues i would go back to the fact that men's libido probably doesn't decrease as much as women's libido so it is a conversation to have between couples that maybe she just doesn't want it maybe there's it doesn't want penetrative sex uh doesn't mean she doesn't want to hold hands she doesn't want to kiss and cuddle she doesn't want him to fondle her body but it may be that she just that the idea of having a

full penetrative sex not is not something that she wants because of the vaginal soreness which is painful and also the other the one thing of course that's very positive is you don't have to worry about pregnancy anymore so that takes that pressure off. Something she said, I'm going to ask both of you this, is she doesn't know what normal or typical is. Is there any such thing, Claire? No, there isn't. And I think lots of people aren't truthful about the amount of sex they have at any age. I've seen women who in their 60s and 70s are having sex very regularly every week or so and others who maybe have it once or twice a year.

So I don't think there is a norm. I think what's normal is what couples eventually come to as to what's in their relationship. And they shouldn't feel guilty about it. They're having sex every day. Great. If they're having sex once a year or never, fine, as long as you retain intimacy in your relationship. Is there anything normal? I would say I 100% agree with that. There is no normal. fine as long as you retain intimacy in your relationship is there anything normal i would say i 100 agree with that there is no normal you just have to do what works for you and for your relationship and because you're talking to women and this is what you do for a living how do you sort of navigate just women getting their heads around the fact that their bodies have changed so

much yeah there's a lot of lots of conversation you know sort of sharing sometimes even share sharing other stories so that they know that it is quite normal that, you know, you may not want to have sex. Just to say, though, sometimes the fear is what sex might involve. You know, once you're in it and your body has started to become aroused, sometimes you surprise yourself and actually you're at a space where you're like actually this is what I want right now I think it's just taking the expectation off yourself and just enjoying the moment and just experimenting with what your body can do because although it can be quite worrying when you get older in you know in terms of not knowing what your body can do and whether it can enjoy sex or whatever it may be there's also lots of beauty in the fact that your body might do different things it's like a whole new world to explore.

It really is. Yeah, you might experience sensation in a different way. So it can be a lot of fun. And we know that a lot of older people use sex toys as well, because obviously the clitoris sometimes could be not as sensitive. So they might need a bit more stimulation. And that can create an amazing buzz in the body that they never experienced in their 20s or 30s. Well, Elaine, if you're listening, I hope that helped you. Thank you to Dr. Claire Girard and Charlene Douglas.

I'm going to read a few more of your messages coming in. I'm in my late 70s. Partner is 80. We do not live together. Sex has enriched our relationship. We enjoy a full sexual relationship. Both of us had not had any sort of sexual relationship for several years previously. I occasionally use oestrogen, gel vaginally. We always use a lubricant. We both have health issues, but we managed to maintain an intimate relationship, which is what both parties wanted. Where there's a will, there's a way.

Yes, libido is reduced, but not always necessary. A lot of joy is in the mind, says Patricia. I'm a 76-year-old female, says someone else. I don't have a partner, but I still enjoy sex. Masturbation is healthy, and there are many sex toys that give pleasure. And another message here saying, hi, Woman Sour. Yes, yes, yes. Lube and a lot of love.

I'm 73, and me and him indoors are having a ball. Good to hear. 84844, keep your messages and thoughts coming in. Now, listener Tegan Banks got in touch touch and she said, I would love to talk about how losing my mum at 11 has led to attachment to female figures, maternal ones, throughout my life, sometimes where it can be negative. In all the grief media I see, this is something I've never seen spoken about and it can be quite isolating. I'm sure other people who've lost parents have experienced similar things. I'm 21 now and this is something I still struggle with, feeling guilty for these attachments as I

feel like I'm forgetting my own mum, but knowing these people can't really replace my mum or be that for me. Tegan joins me now on the line from the BBC Edinburgh studio. We're also joined by Julia Samuel, a psychotherapist whose focus has been on psychological problems sparked by loss and the author of grief works. Tegan and Julia, welcome to the programme. Tegan, I'm going to start by coming to you. Thank you for getting in touch with us. I think we should talk about your mum. What was her name and what are your memories of her? My mum was called Amber and she was a very strong lady. She was quite poorly for quite a while. So my memories of her, mainly of her trying to power through her illness and, you know,

try and be better for us and for her children. But yeah, she was a pretty cool woman. So how much were you told by your parents about your mum's illness? What do you remember? I know you were only 11. I was quite lucky that both my parents were very honest with me and my brother the whole way through her illness, so there wasn't really any secrets. We knew of every operation, every treatment. We could also just see it in her,

so I think we were quite lucky that my family were really on it with that because I know that not everyone experiences that. What are your memories of that time? Yeah Yeah I saw my mum change quite a lot she was quite a healthy woman quite fit and well before and then yeah you're watching someone become quite ill and as well as it being your mum is very hard and it's I think it's something I will never forget even though I was so young you know it was a long time that she was ill so. And what kind of support did you get where did you find your support? Well I think because she died when I was kind of crossing over into secondary school

so I feel like at primary school there was like a lot of there was a big support network and then as soon as I went to secondary school because she died at the end of year six it was kind of forgotten about and me and my brother were sort of provided with some help but it was for a bit older children and then I think because that didn't really work for us there was it was like that's the only option so there wasn't a massive amount of support until I was a bit older and through Covid I kind of like re-experienced this grief again and I my dad actually reached out to a charity called Winston's Wish and they provided me and my brother with online counselling because obviously it was COVID so it had to be online but yeah it was there's kind of been a massive gap in my life where I haven't really had that

much grief support. And you want you got in touch with us because you wanted to talk about something really specific and I think it's really interesting because I'm not sure how often it's spoken about. And this is you forming sort of maternal attachments with older women. Do you want to tell us a bit more about what happened? Yeah, so I think this is something I've always dealt with since the loss of my mum. And I think maybe when I was a bit younger, it was sort of a subconscious thing that I didn't really realise was happening, where I've sort of attached myself to, you know, maternal figures in my life, which is normally teachers, because I think that makes the most sense. Or just women in my life, family, friends, friends in general that have kind of fit that role that I feel like I'm missing so massively in my life I've obviously been left with this massive maternal gap and I just always have found myself

sort of attaching myself to these maternal figures and because I was so young it's like you're also I'm grieving my mum as a person but because I was so young I didn't really know who she was as a person so I'm kind of grieving this massive motherly role that I know I'm never going to quite fulfill. But what's really complicated is these people can't really be my mum. And so it feels like every time, you know, especially if it was to do with education, you're moving on to the next educational level or whatever, and you have to leave that person behind. It kind of feels like you're replicating this feeling of loss each time and what can be quite this can be quite a negative thing because you're kind of allowing yourself to form these connections

connections and attachments but you know I'm just having to leave that person and they can't really fulfill that role for me and in your email they extended but you also talk about um forming these attachments with your dad's girlfriends yeah so obviously my dad wanted to be with someone else after my mum died I think that's quite a normal thing um and you know that that's kind of the first point point of call for like that maternal role it's like you know the stepmom or your dad's girlfriend and for me there was maybe a couple times where if that didn't that relationship didn't work out you sort of had performed this um connection and you were like finally I've kind of filled this maternal role and then if that didn't work out it kind of was like heartbreaking because you've you're losing another maternal role look um you got in touch with us because you wanted to discuss this and we've managed to get Julia Samuel on the programme as well. Julia, welcome. She's been listening. I

actually would like to just have the two of you talk to each other for a minute. Julia, what would you say to Tegan? I'd say, Tegan, I kind of recognize the dual complex process of your grief in that it's very natural to long for a maternal figure and look for it wherever you can find it because you need that secure kind of warm, nurturing relationship with a woman a with a woman and also they can never be your mom and so it's so painful that every time you formed an attachment with the teacher or your dad's girlfriend that you you know new loss brings back your previous loss so it would take you to the place of your mom dying but also the sense of shame that you're the guilt that you're trying to replace your mom that you can never do. And while you were talking, I was thinking, you know, we are capable of loving multiple people

at the same time. And your love for your mom never dies. And also the pain for her remains. And you can build secure, loving relationships with other women in your life I don't know how that sounds to you yeah I think I'm quite lucky as well that now I'm in a place in my life where I am still in touch with one of my sixth form teachers who was really there for me over sort of covid period and my dad is now married to my stepmom, who is a lovely woman. And I think what I can now recognize is kind of you're right that I can see like I find bits of my mom in each of these women. And it's kind of this I think it's a really nice, lovely thing as well that it's actually almost get to have lots of motherly figures rather than just one. And I can find bits of my own mom in each of these women and I think this is what makes it so complicated is that it can be a really lovely thing and I

think it's an important thing and I think for me to sort of you know cope with the loss of my mom and as I'm growing up I'm going to need those people in my life and I think for me to sort of function and to cope with it I need to have these relationships with these people but I think I have felt in the past very embarrassed about it because people might because I'm so young there's like no one my age was experiencing these like mad attachments to teachers and I think that's something I've felt it's really isolating it's not only the grief but it's this kind of shame that comes with that as well. Is it something that happens when young women lose their mothers? Yes, and it's completely what happens.

And what I was wondering, Tegan, is that even now when you recognise it's normal, you're saying these mad attachments. And I wonder what would have been helpful for you you know 12 you're particularly vulnerable because you're stepping into adolescence you're going into secondary school so you were kind of stepping into this new alien landscape which is already complex and then grieving the death of your mum and I wonder what would have helped you what could somebody have said to you at the time that you'd like yes if someone happened to them now what would you like them to know um I think for me it would have been helpful to know that it's actually okay and that it's completely normal and obviously now as a 21 year old yeah as a 21 year old I can look back and kind of recognize how actually ridiculous

it was that I ever felt embarrassed about it. Because of course you're going to want to find that maternal love from other people if, you know, it's this massive gaping hole in my life. I just wish someone had sort of turned to me and said, actually, it's okay, but I do wish that there was maybe some way that someone could have helped me with the boundaries and like to kind of set my own boundaries up so that the attachment doesn't kind of go overboard where it's then I just get more hurt in the end if that person can't be in my life anymore. How much of a role do schools have to play in offering support to

children who've suffered a bereavement? I mean one in nine children in every classroom in this country will have a significant loss and schools have a very significant role to play I mean, one in nine children in every classroom in this country will have a significant loss. And schools have a very significant role to play. I mean, they have so many demands. I think often they will only respond, you know, reactionary rather than being informed before. But if teachers could be educated about the importance of how to respond to young people and what they need, I think it would make an enormous difference because it's the other stability. So one of the kind of key things of being a child or a young person is that you want to be the same as everybody else.

You want to be the same as your peers. And yet you are bereaved. And I think it's a teacher knowing that you can move into both places and it's a simple term for it is jumping in and out of puddles so you can jump in the puddle if you if you see your friend hugging their mum you may feel very sad and suddenly tearful but then you can jump out of the puddle and be a normal healthy giggling happy. And it's the oscillation, the movement between the two that is the active grieving process. And if teachers could just realise that rather than kind of feeling the pressure for children to be OK,

but to acknowledge the loss, name the loss, and create safe spaces for them for when they are distressed that they can go to and be sad and then get back into the classroom. And Tegan, you yourself are now doing something about it because you've become a grief advocate with a child bereavement charity, Winston's Wish. You yourself want to make it less of a taboo subject, which is why you got in touch with us and here we are talking about it.

And you've put on a play in Edinburgh, which is about grief. Yeah, so I've done a lot of stuff for grief charities I think that's kind of been my passion in life so Winston's Wish has been one of them and then yeah I kind of randomly decided to write a play about um the seven stages of grief and my experience not so random by the way not so random um but it was more to kind of debunk the seven stages of grief because I this is what the play is about. I kind of took it and made it a funny thing as well and made caricatures out of the stages. But kind of the message at the end is actually that the stages of grief were never intended for those that had lost someone.

It was actually intended for the dying. So there's a little twist in the play. It's called Seven Steps to Feel Completely Happy Again, which is a very long title. And our last show is at 3.40 today at the Radisson Blue Hotel. If anyone's in Edinburgh, it'd be amazing if you could come along and see it. Get down there.

I want to thank you both for joining me to talk about this, particularly you, Tegan, for getting in touch to want to talk about your own experience. So thank you for that. Tegan Banks and Julia Samuel, best of luck with the play this afternoon. Thank you for joining me. Tegan's play, Seven Steps to Feel Completely Happy, is at Space One.

You've just heard her plug it up in Edinburgh. Today is the last performance. 84844 is the number to text if you want to get in touch. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. S settle in.

Available now. On to the next one. One listener has asked us to find why women's haircuts can cost more than men's at the same salon. Here, a nearby salon charges £36.50 for a lady's wet cut and £22.50 for a men's wet cut. But this listener has short hair and has often wondered about the reason for the difference in price. In the past, when she's asked hairdressers have told her that's the way it's always been and men wouldn't pay the same prices as women. Well, I'm joined now by Liz McGlone, an equality lawyer who has short hair, and Caroline Laracy, Chief Executive of the National Hair and Beauty Federation,

a trade organisation with 5,000 members across the hair, barbering and beauty industries. Caroline has 25 years experience as a hairdresser. Welcome Liz, welcome Caroline. I'm going to start with you first Caroline. Why can women's haircuts cost more than men's at the same salon? Well we always advocate that when you're actually charging you're actually charging for the time that it takes for the service and so generally if a lady comes into a salon they'll generally have their hair washed and they'll have it blow-dried and they'll have a full service but that should be exactly the same for if a gent comes into the salon and we across the board have sort of always said you need to charge for the actual time of the service not

actually the service itself when it's in the same salon i'm presuming it's just their different pricing rooms and what they've actually done if it's the difference between a hairdressing service and a barbering service then that's's a very different kettle of fish. But basically what a salon will do is will calculate all the various different steps it actually takes to actually complete that service. And so that's why sometimes services can be a lot more expensive because there might be products in there, there might be treatments in there, there might be various different blow dryings or fish finishings or stuff like that i'm going to bring you in liz you're an equality lawyer are sellers at different prices for men and women being

discriminatory um well obviously i have short hair and i quite often go to barbers rather than hairdresser because of differential price and also because um controversially i'm not a big fan of hairdressers it makes me feel rather uncomfortable so is it discriminatory um i don't think in terms of the provision of service it's discriminatory but i think if you went into a barber shop as a woman and the barber shop said we're not going to serve you we're not going to cut your hair because you're a woman that would be discriminatory. But I do take on board Caroline's point that women tend to spend longer in the hairdresser, have longer hair potentially, and I don't think you can compare a short back and sides with a full head of foils.

So I think it's a case-by-case basis. But I think if you were to turn someone away based on sex, then that would be an issue. Caroline, some salons do divide their prices along gender lines. We did a quick internet search for five high street salons and found two of them had gendered pricing. For example, a ladies cut and finish from £60 and a gents cut and finish from £45 with both services lasting 45 minutes. What do you make of this? Why the £15 difference in price? And also men have just as many products on their hair they love a blow dry everyone gets their hair washed it's nothing to do with that is it

i think that um as an industry you know we we have a couple of leaps and bounds you know if i look at all our history we've actually been um sort of lobbying for general neutral pricing for since about 2009 we've had blogs out there so we're a membership organization so we provide all the tools and resources for our members and we've very much campaigned on this for quite a considerable amount of time and actually we did a snap poll this month and what we had last time we did a snap poll was I think it was 2018 and I think it was 80 odd percent of people that were actually you know splitting the gender pricing think it was 2018. And I think it was 80 odd percent of people that were actually, you know,

splitting the gender pricing. And it was like, well, you know, we can't do that moving forward. And then this snap poll, it was 50 odd, which we're getting there, you know what I mean? But what you've got to take into account. Why is it? Why has it been set like that?

I think it's because there's a, you know, it's a massive industry and it's got a massive heritage. And Joe Public don't know the difference. So to me, as a hair professional, a head is a head. You know what I mean? And how you cut the hair on the head is exactly the same. Now, the techniques are different.

So if you go into a barbershop, a barbershop cuts completely different to what a hairdresser does. So there is, you know, the difference within that. A lot of barbershops don't have sinks. So you don't expect to have a hair washed in a barbershop. Let's defer to Liz, who goes to the barbershop. What do you prefer about being the barber's experience to being in a hair salon? I'm going to, I don't want to be rude at all. So I'm not being at all um

undermining of um hairdressers but it's it's the sharpness it's the quick in and out it's the all the things that some people or some women probably enjoy about going to the hairdressers the chit chat the coffee for me it's a utilitarian experience I want to get it done I want to be out as quickly as possible um so it's that it's's the lack of fluff, I guess, for me, that going into a barber's is sometimes just easier. I don't need to... You don't want the just-stepped-out-of-a-salon experience. No.

You don't want to feel like a new woman every time you come out the hairdresser. No, I'm not going to be kind of, you know, the head and shoulders advert, I guess, or kind of... You've got great haircut, I have to say. I've got short short blonde hair and I um diet myself having you know lots of bad experiences I still bleach my own hair but um I think also in terms of and I maybe um Caroline thinks I'm wrong but it's also what the market can sustain um a salon is a commercial entity it's going to charge what it can with all due respect get away

with um and i think also it can be quite often postcode specific i know if i get my hair cut in local town to me and i cross the county line the price doubles so um it's business at the end of the day caroline it it's horses for courses isn't it everybody's individual and everybody wants them think individual and i think that's what's happened, particularly lately with, you know, salons and barbershops are actually tailoring more for consumer needs. So you go in a barbershop now and there's probably a beer fridge, you know, you help yourself a beer or maybe a pool table and it's become more of a relaxed environment. So and people are more discerning these days. They know what they want

and you know if you want to go in and you just want your hair cut then you know you have to go into a barber shop that you can do that if you want to go into a salon and you want more of a relaxed service then you can do that if you go into certain salons you can have well-being treatments so you can have head massages there's all sorts of various different things. And that's what I say. I think the opportunities and the choices out there for the consumer look much more broader than they ever have been. Is there anything in, this was in the message that came through, is there an element of women will pay more than men? As our listener said in her hairdresser told told her men wouldn't pay the same prices as women i think uh i think there's a you know there's a stereotypical thing that you know women will pay more than men but actually in reality men will like pampering as well i think you know we can't just say that these days i think we've gone from the sort of the traditional roles where the men go to the barber shops and the women go to the hairdressing salons I know particularly I was fortunate in writing the standards for hairdressing

many many years ago and we actually took out the gender I think in about 2009 because as I said before a head is a head and a haircut is a haircut so why haven't the salons caught up with that I think it's just it's just time and I just time and it's the history of the sector. If you go back, you know, really to traditional hairdressing and barbering, men went to barbers and ladies went to hairdressing salons. So should salons that are unisex have just non-gendered pricing then? Yes, and a lot of salons do. As I say, they charge for the time of what you actually

want in the service. And so the idea is that you have, you know, a consultation beforehand, so you know exactly what's going to be part of the service. And if you want to just go in and have a haircut, that should be a choice. But if you want to go in and have a haircut, and you want to have a treatment, and you want to have a blow dry, and you want to have a treatment and you want to have a blow-dry and you want to have a finish again the pricing should relate that it should never be about gender because as i say it's about a head is a head a head is a head thank you both of you for joining me to talk about that fascinating stuff uh liz mcglone and caroline larrissey and a couple of you have been in touch i had a dry trim at my local hairdressers. I have shoulder-length hair, no layers, but a few centimetres cut. The gentleman before had paid £14 for cut hair shorts with layers.

I paid £30. I don't mind paying £30. They're skilled professionals. But twice the price? Help, says Karen. And another one here says, I would rather be out as quickly as possible, so I'd happily just have my hair sprayed wet, cut and left wet, so I'm out the salon as quickly as possible. I wear hair up every day so the only thing that matters to me is the

cutting of the fringe I actually started cutting my own hair as I can't afford 60 pounds for hair cuts every six to eight weeks um but can you get a straight fringe though that is the question um 84844 keep your thoughts and text messages coming in. Now, here's a question. What's your attitude to risk? Do you do risky things? And what do you consider to be a risky activity? Well, my next guest, a listener, Kitty Dowry, wanted us to take a look at so-called risky sports

and to encourage us all to look at them in a different way. Kitty is a climber. She's been doing it for 10 years and wants to see more women give it a go, perhaps those who might have written it off for fear that it's too dangerous. I'm pleased to say Kitty joins me now, as does Hazel Findlay, a professional climber and coach.

Welcome to you both. Kitty, I'm going to come to you first. Thank you for writing in to us. That's all right. It was a pleasure. Why do you love climbing? I love climbing because it's something that gives you this experience of space escapism it gets me away from doing stuff that might not be necessarily in my normal day-to-day life i think that it gives such a relaxing calming supportive environment and it's really really

accessible and anything that i do when i relocated i joined a club and that enabled me to meet people in a new place where I previously knew no one so it provided that experience of that getting to know people and also just a lovely community that climbing is it's a really really accessible thing to do like there's over 400 climbing walls in the UK so it's super super accessible and you were 17 when you started yes I was yeah and but it's become your life now hasn't it it has become pretty much my life now um I work within the outdoor industry as well so I'm a qualified climbing instructor indoor and outdoors so I work within the industry so you got in touch

to us first to talk specifically about why people might be put off it why do you think people particularly women don't are drawn aren't drawn towards it i think there's this sort of element that it's a high risky thing to do in what way i think the height i think some of people think so maybe oh my god you're really really high and you're um yeah you're really high and therefore it must be really dangerous when actually it's not and well there are elements which might be more dangerous and there's lots of different disciplines within climbing like there's bouldering there's which can be indoors or outdoors indoors again that would be a lot safer than outdoors there's top rope climbing indoors but that can also be done outdoors and both of those are relatively safe in what they what you do within them um i think it's interesting like

from non-climbing friends if i put something on social media they think oh my god that's so dangerous how are you doing that it must be really really challenging and difficult when actually it really isn't it's something that is really accessible and easy to get into I absolutely love it I have to say um but every time I've ever done it and or you see a photo of someone climbing the you the back of your knees go just looking at a photo you know and you just see and it is it looks terrifying I'm going to bring Hazel in also I have to say Kitty how excited are you to be the back of your knees go just looking at a photo you know and you just see and it is it looks terrifying i'm going to bring hazel in also i have to say kitty how excited are you to be talking to one of your climbing heroes hazel have you spoken to each other before have you ever have you ever

spoken hazel you are kitty's hero great to meet you kitty and you um i've seen hazel's talks that she does across the country i went to one in leeds but um i haven't actually spoken to her well here we go we've got the two of you on together so you can talk to each other as well but hazel i just want to ask you how dangerous is climbing well it's like how kitty says you know it's kind of as dangerous as you want it to be you can really control uh the risk in climbing, especially if you have access to an indoor climbing center. Outdoors, it's a bit harder to control the risk.

And it's more about your experience level. So if you're very experienced and skilled, you're going to be much better at controlling that risk compared to if you're a beginner climber. And that's why kind of like employing instructors to be much better at controlling that risk compared to if you're a beginner climber and that's why kind of like employing instructors and getting mentors is really important if you do want to do those types of climbing. So there might be lots of women feeling inspired or people feeling inspired listening to this what are the stages presumably you can't just start straight away you must have to build it up. Well I mean you can just find where your local indoor climbing

center is and you can show up or you can ring up and you can ask to get an instructor or a coach just kind of like any other sport really isn't the fear rational though because you are you are ultimately you are climbing high often on vertical uh rock faces i mean obviously that you the more experience you get the higher and harder it gets but that fear and i think that fear of heights certainly increases the older you get yeah so i think that's a good way to think about it you know it's like you can make climbing safe in the sense that you're very unlikely to hurt yourself physically when you go climbing but it is actually a scary sport you know I think we all have this kind of primal deep-seated fear of heights uh fear of falling I think that's totally

normal but I also think that's what makes the sport so special because it gets you out of your comfort zone and you get to travel tell us about some of the amazing places you've climbed. Let's talk about, I know we've talked about the risk and the fear element. Let's talk about what makes it so spectacular. Yeah, I mean, outdoor climbing is just amazing because you get to go to some of the most beautiful, wonderful places in the world. It's kind of like a passport to see the world and also get off the beaten track you know you're not going to end up in the same tourist destinations as as everyone else as a climber you're going to end up um in some more remote um unusual places kitty you

mentioned in your email what uh hazel why do you find her so inspiring i think that it's really interesting to see sort of a female role model within within our sport and it's not always been quite present like a lot of the social media that you see the films that have been on Netflix they're all male athletes and I think it's really nice to see a female athlete promoting the sport, getting people involved within it, trying to help them within their mind state and making sure that it can be something that you can be calm and enjoy.

And I think seeing Hazel's documentary when she went to the Arctic with Greenland was really, really awesome. But also then not necessarily seeing the coverage that Hazel was even a part of it. And I think that it's a role model of somebody that is doing really cool stuff. And hopefully by putting someone on a stage like this,

then that will help. Then others see that it's actually there and women are actually participating in it. Which is what you're doing. And also Hazel inspired you. And you're eight months pregnant, Haz look i looked at your instagram nothing stopped you amazing but you've obviously had some backlash people have an opinion on that yeah i mean yeah so i'm still climbing uh is looking very different though you know i'm

climbing in a very different way um you know some some people have sort of made comments about it, you know, that it's too risky and that kind of thing. But actually, I think times are really changing. And most of the comments I've got have been really positive. And it seems that people mostly find it inspiring. We should probably say that, of course, if anyone is pregnant and looking to do exercise, they should speak to their doctor. You are at the top top of your game so you know what you're doing yeah pregnancy wouldn't be the best time to start climbing let's put it that way but if you're already an experienced climber i actually think it's a sport that is that is possible to continue through pregnancy and the little one is going to presumably be climbing up walls and trees and anything as

soon as it can i hope so she feels like she's trying to climb out of me right now actually oh well best of luck hazel uh with all of it kitty thank you so much what's your next adventure where are you off to climb uh i'm off to pembrokeshire hopefully pretty much as soon as i finish this i was supposed to be there already but i delayed it because i didn't think i'd get signal so beautiful part of the world love stunning bit of Wales. I hope you have good weather. Thank you both of you Hazel Findlay and Kitty Dowry there and a special thank you Kitty for getting in touch with us and bringing

this topic to our attention. Now, listener Amaya contacted the programme. She said, in fact she's sitting right in front of me. Hello Amaya. Hi. Nice to have you on Woman's Cell. Why don't you just tell us. Thanks for having me. It's my Cell. Why don't you just tell us what you're doing? Thanks for having me. It's my pleasure.

Why don't you read your own email out? Yeah, sure. Okay, so I said, I'd like to introduce myself, share my story, my music, and raise awareness. I'm a 20-year-old British Indian singer-songwriter, originally from London. My songs are genre-fluid and, most importantly, represent my neurodiversity. However, being a British Indian female on the spectrum, I am certainly in the minority and feel extremely underrepresented. I feel I have a unique backstory and believe I can use this as a force for good and to bring a much needed change into the music industry. For an Indian female to break out into the mainstream and raise awareness

amongst our community as well as the greater one at large would be phenomenal and a real accomplishment in feeling inclusive. And here you are about to do just that. So tell us about your story. When did you start writing music? Okay well I first stepped into the recording studio aged 11 and I had no idea what I was doing of course but I was very excited and it was actually to record an Amy Winehouse cover. So you've obviously sung forever you've got an amazing voice. Oh thank you yeah growing up she was definitely my biggest inspiration I was just fascinated by her and I always thought she was very unique and I loved her rawness, I guess. So yeah, I first stepped in when I was 11. And then you started writing as well. like kind of singing what my mum had kind of written for me based off of my journals. So I'd write journal entries and then we'd kind of read them together and she'd form a song based

off that. And then with time, as I got older, then I started to kind of learn how, you know, I started to kind of learn her process and then I'd start writing with her based off of those same journals that I'd continue to write. So you were diagnosed as autistic at the age of nine? Yeah. How did you feel about that? Gosh well it was very overwhelming. I kind of knew I was different and I was kind of told I was different. in what way what did people say um well it was always seen that I you know I had a lot of um anxiety generally and especially at school um so I was always kind of seen as different um and yeah it's something my teachers

picked up on at a very young age I think they picked up on it at um three actually um but I was diagnosed at nine because they wanted to kind of wait for me to um answer the questions you know on my own accord so yeah that's why we waited till nine and then um when I got diagnosed it gave me like the clarity I needed and um and what about your parents it definitely helped me understand myself i'd say um and my parents yeah they were um yeah they definitely agreed with like the diagnosis and you know all the questions and they agreed with my responses so we knew it was kind of like accurate and what was right and then how about the wider community because i think it's really important to talk about it

from your particular perspective, which is that being an Indian woman. Yeah. Was it tough? Yeah, definitely. My parents have always been my biggest support network. They've always been tremendously supportive. But my extended family, I can't say the same, no.

What were their reactions like? Did they even understand? Honestly, no no they didn't understand at all and I think what hurt the most was it wasn't them not understanding it was the fact that they didn't even they didn't care to understand they didn't want to try and understand and whenever I tried speaking to them or opening up about my diagnosis I would just constantly be shut down um and yeah they just I felt like they just never really cared never really wanted to get to know me or or yeah cared about my mental health how did you feel about that um

yeah it was really difficult it was really saddening and probably very sad and difficult for your parents as well yeah and their lack of support and understanding has definitely taken a huge toll on my mental health so much so that you've bravely and brilliantly got in touch with us to say you wanted to talk about it because it needs to be spoken about yeah are you okay yeah I'm good yeah um so how important has songwriting been for you um yeah very important it's it's always been um a release for me um and that's why I started doing journal entries from a very young age um so yeah and then that later on progressed into songwriting when I kind of learned that you know this is definitely something I can see myself doing going forward and that I want to raise awareness you know through my voice kind of thing yeah and you've recently

graduated having studied a music degree yeah how proud are you of yourself um well I mean I've if you asked me that five years ago I would be like no way you're having me on um yeah it was it was crazy really I'm still kind of processing that I guess um I mean I never thought I'd be able to go to university because of my anxiety and then just being told I'm not academic enough so yeah so what got you through do you think? Definitely my parents' support, 100%. That's number one. And then I think just kind of persevering, really. Yeah. I think that's the moral of the story, isn't it?

Perseverance. And you're only still 21. 20 at the moment. 20! Gosh, don't put that extra year on. Amaya, thank you so much for coming in to talk to me. I want to wish you the best of luck with your career. Thank at the moment. 20. Don't put that extra year on. Amaya, thank you so much for coming in to talk to me. I want to wish you the best of luck with your career. Thank you so much. I'm sure you've got a very bright one ahead of you. Thank you. Very talented. Lots of you have been

in touch with the programme. Thank you so much for all your messages. I'm going to just try and read one out very quickly. I'm 65, four foot nine and go bouldering nearly every week. I've done it for the last 12 years. Good for you. Keep going. I just want to say a massive thank you to all of you who've been in touch with your fantastic ideas. Thank you also to Di McGregor and Louise Crawley who've produced this brilliant Listener Week. Coming up tomorrow on Weekend Woman's Hour,

you can listen again to some of our favourite topics from Listener Week. So join me then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. If you look through your makeup bag, you might have a blusher, eyeshadow or face powder join me then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join in the talc. Asbestos. I'm Phoebe Keane, and from BBC Radio 4, listen to How They Made Us Doubt Everything, Series 2, Talc Tales, on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.