Woman's Hour - Listener Week: Testosterone, Talking to adult children about abuse, Why we dream

Episode Date: August 5, 2025

Listener Week continues on Woman's Hour as we bring your stories, ideas and the issues you want to hear about to the air.Carola got in touch to ask if we could find out more about the benefits of testosterone for post-menopausal women. Dr Joyce Harper, Professor of Reproductive Science at the Institute for Women’s Health at University College London, joins Nuala McGovern to discuss the evidence. When we think about children in situations of domestic abuse, it’s often young children we think of - but what about adult children? We received a letter from a listener telling us about a dilemma she is facing. After previously being in an abusive relationship with the father of her four adult children, she’s now considering whether to tell them that their parents’ relationship was coercive. Gemma Sherrington, CEO of Refuge, and coercive control expert Dr Gemma Katz join us to discuss the issues around a parent deciding whether to be honest with their grown-up children or continue to protect them from their reality. Jess wrote in to tell us about a poem she came across on social media about the post-partum period, calling it “absolutely beautiful”. She added: “There are hundreds of comments across Instagram and TikTok of mothers feeling exactly the same way. Please check it out, I would love to hear more from this poet.” We’ve tracked her down and her name is Amy Williams. She joins us to perform the poem live in the studio. Listener Sarah Hutchinson wants to know more about dreams. Specifically, why she has been having more vivid, memorable dreams during the recent heatwaves, and whether women’s experience of dreaming is linked to the menstrual cycle? Sarah joins Nuala along with Caroline Horton, Professor of Sleep and Cognition and director of the DrEAMSLab at Bishop Grosseteste University. And listener Heather tells us what it was like setting up one of the first dating agencies in the 1980s, aimed at helping people in rural communities find love. Presented by: Nuala McGovern Produced by: Sarah Jane Griffiths and Di McGregor

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BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Newell McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome. Listener Week continues, where the program is decided by you. Thanks to those who have taken the time to share your ideas, so we have coming up. One listener, Carolla, wants to know more about testosterone, a wonder drug for those going through the menopause, or another, overhyped supplement. Carla says one friend using it has experienced better orgasms but has also grown a mustache we're going to discuss. Also, another listener gone in touch wanting us to find the poet Amy Williams and ask her to perform her viral hit poem six to eight weeks. It's about that time after giving birth. So we did track Amy down and she will be in the Woman's Hour studio this hour. We also heard from a woman who was in an abusive relationship.

She has never spoken to her children about how her husband treated her, and she wonders if others have also gone through this. She also asks, how can you broach that discussion with now adult children? There is a lot of stake, so we will try and get her some answers. We have a matchmaker joining us. Heather tried to find love for lonely farmers in the 80s. I'm wondering, how do you know who will make a good match? will hear her stories of success and of a couple of failures.

Have you ever had experience of a matchmaker now? It can be unofficial or official. Any kind of interactions with them. I want to hear your story. You can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email us through our website.

To send a WhatsApp message or a voice note, the number is 0-3-700-100-444. plus dreams. Some of us remember them. Others try and decipher what they might mean and lots of us forget them the minute we wake up. Well, one listener wants to know if there's any connection to her vivid dreams

and her menstrual cycle. So we'll also talk about that. But let us begin with the suggestion that came in from our listener, Carola. Carola wrote, how about discussing testosterone this time? Could it be on the agenda? Yes, indeed it could.

Welcome, Carola. Thank you. Good to have you with us. So tell us more about why you're interested in finding out about testosterone. Well, I spoke to a friend a long time ago and she told me that she'd been put on testosterone because she'd had her levels checked and she couldn't believe how amazing her orgasms were. And ever since then, it's sort of stuck in my mind and I thought, well, that's just not fair. I'd like some testosterone too.

So I've been trying to get it on the NHS and they basically seemed to sort of stoneworn me. They said I should go to a menopause clinic and I'd need to pay and I've been doing it for quite a while. I have actually finally got an appointment, a video appointment next week and I'm hoping they're going to test my levels and tell me that I can have it. One of the reasons I'd like to have it is because I have my libido has gone off on holiday with me. my brain with menopause and I feel really sorry for my husband and so if that improves things and she said to me her husband was very pleased with her now that would be fantastic yes and and for you as well of course carola not just your husband but that's interesting you do have an appointment next week and that was through the NHS eventually it was but it's taken such a long

time in the end I rang them and I said look the libido has gone I think my husband is going to leave me, don't tell him, but I would really like to be tested. So I think that's what got me on the list. Well, I'm not sure, but it's taken a long time. Now, I mentioned just as a few minutes ago, better orgasms, the upside, but a pal with a mustache. Tell me more. She said to me two things happened. She said she grew a mustache and she said it was fine. She just had it lasered off or waxed off or something and then she said she was given a gel and she put it between her legs which I think is where you put estrogen gel and she said that it got a bit hairy but again you can get it waxed I don't care if I have better orgasms and my husband is happy then I'll be delighted

and also my dermatologist told me that she'd gone on testosterone gel and that her brain fog had gone and that if I don't know if it's connected at all but again that would be wonderful because I drive my children and my husband my wild because I can't remember things and so on so on so another advantage okay um and body hair we could do a whole other item on that carola as well but you know you brought up a lot of issues there i'm really happy to say we're also joined in studio by dr joyce harper a professor of reproductive science at the institute for women's health university college london you know carola has set out a number of issues there. What do we know that it actually does? Very good question. And testosterone certainly is a hot topic at the moment. So in our bodies, testosterone is actually

produced by the ovaries, the adrenal glands and the peripheral tissues. And it certainly does in women help our sexual function. It also contributes towards our muscles, our mood, our bone health and our vitality. So that's what it's doing normally in our body. And it does change as a women ages, but it actually has another little peak. I was going to say it's spurt then, but I can be careful. You can say it. This is mum and darrow. Of course you can. We are going to say lots of

other words in a moment. So it does rise again in our 60s. That's why some women get chin hairs and our little moustaches grow anyway. I was reading that, preparing for this item and I was like, well, that's great. Like at 60, there's going to be another rise in testosterone,

perhaps with some of these benefits at Carol. Or indeed, a you Joyce have mentioned there. But if it does have this dip during menopause, is that when it starts to decline? It declines with age, actually. From Professor Susan Davis from Australia, she's measured testosterone over 10,000 women of all different ages

and seeing how it declines and then rises again over age 60. So it declines in men as well. But with some of the issues that Carol has brought up low libido, definitely and brain fog, for example, Can this help? Well, let's have a look at the evidence. I'm very much an evidence-based scientist. So there's lots of anecdotes around.

But for sexual functions, certainly, Professor Davis, again, has done a large number of studies, over 20 studies on testosterone. And certainly for libido, about 50 to 60% of women with a low libido, something we call hyperactive sexual desire disorder, very long term. It does help.

But not in all women. And before they go on it, we need to look at other factors. So it's very important for your guests. We need to look at other factors. So we need to look at certainly their lifestyle, any other medication they will be on, their relationship. So it's not something you should just go on

without doing some tests and discussions beforehand. But 50 to 60 percent, I mean, that is substantial and some people might be prepared to test it for that particular reason. But speaking of tests, how accurate are? at the test when it comes to testosterone levels to know how much we might need or not need? Yeah, the testing is quite complicated and just testing what we call free testosterone in your blood is not reliable because testosterone, it's how it's metabolised at the tissues.

So with a number of hormones that we measure our menopause, it's actually quite complicated. So they need to do the right test, but I'm sure her doctor will do the right test. But even then, the symptoms may not be related to the dose of testosterone in their actual blood. So with all our female hormones, it's actually, we're very complicated us, ladies, and it can be difficult. So certainly measuring it might give some useful information. But is there any problem taking it? Well, there are side effects to everything. Let's look at the moustache.

Yes. So we shouldn't be going anywhere near male levels of testosterone, for sure. So we could aim for levels of pre-menopause and before we were going through the menopause. but certainly the problem with hair growth also things like weight gain and many other symptoms do come in and with any drug a woman take or anyone takes there are side effects

so we have to be very aware of that it's not on licence or it's not licensed for use in women and that might explain some of the delays for example for Carol are trying to get an actual tube or gel of testosterone for example but you can get it through the NHS

and what are the recommendations I'm wondering from the British Menopause Society or the International Menopause Society for example Absolutely both of those societies have very clear and the same recommendations that because of the studies on libido it could be tried for women with low libido and on the NHS we certainly should offer it for that

as long as those other factors have been taken into consideration but you mentioned brain her friend had helped with brain fog. Unfortunately, there have been no clinical studies to date that have shown that. And Susan Davis studies show that placebo has exactly the same effect of testosterone. And in menopals... For brain fog or for libido? No, no, for brain fog and other factors such as improving our vitality and things like that.

And in menopause research, we have to be very conscious of the effect of placebo. So many studies are showing placebo just as effective. as taking a drug. So there are studies being done now by a number of groups around the world. So we have to wait until we got the results of that. But certainly for libido, both international and British menopause societies

do recommend it as a treatment for libido. It is interesting though, because there have been medicines, medications for men and if there's any sexual issues for such a long time. Why isn't there a blue pill for women? Oh, we are so far behind for women's health. I'm sure this has been out in the media very often. We are really behind on women's health research.

We are catching up now. We need more funding, more research. It's quite amazing that these questions are not already answered and that we don't have the answers to many more questions that your guests will have about their health. Interesting. Mixed reaction. Some people glad testosterone replacement is finally under discussion.

women's enjoyment of sex is not something we should be ashamed of, somebody else expressing irritation. Am I missing something? The woman is insisting the overburdened NHS prescriber testosterone so she can have better orgasms. No wonder the NHS is letting unwell people down. But Joyce's face, I have to describe it for our radio listeners. She is shocked and horrified.

Why? Oh, my goodness, I am. I'm very much a proponent. I talk a lot about how orgasms are really, really good for our health. They're good for our mental health. they produce happy hormones, relaxing hormones. And it's not something with ageing that we should stop exploring. So if we're having problems, men have lots of problems too.

They have erectile dysfunction and ejaculation dysfunction as they age. As we age, we need to keep those conversations going. I think having a healthy sex life, either with your partner or alone, is very important as we age. It keeps us healthy and happy. So it should, if you have problems, please go and see your GP. And hopefully your sympathetic GP, will help you with these issues.

I want to get a response from Carol and then I have one other question for you, Joyce. Carol, what do you think so far? Just to say, I am happy with my orgasms, but if they could be better, that would be really nice and added bonus. And also to say that I don't know if it would have anything in connection with hair thinning as well, because often I don't know if that's why men get not much hair up top, whether maybe there's some link there with testosterone and hair thinning. I'd be interested to know.

Yes, yes, there is a link. We always say the more virile, the man, the more testosterone, the bouldery is. Oh, okay. So it's one of those sayings. We'd have to look at the facts of that. But I think we, yeah, we have to be careful about hair thinning as well, for sure. Carly, you've got a conversation going. I do want to throw in one more question to do Joyce before I let you go.

This is from an email from a listener, Hazel, who wrote, there's been a welcome influx of information programs and discussions relating to the perimenopause. And menopause. I would welcome input for women for whom the menopause is but a dissonable. I'm 75. Can older women take HRT? And if so, what might it do? Starting new physical and emotional relationships in your 70s is lovely, but opposes different challenges when younger than when you're younger. Your body's older, the likelihood of illness increases. What advice could you give Hazel on whether she could start HRT now? HRT is very much recommended, again,

by the International and British Menopause Society to treat symptoms. So if at 75, she's having symptoms that may be related to menopause, but if she just started having them, they could be related to other aging and health issues. But we have to be very careful with women starting HRT when they're either 10 years post-menopause or over the age of 60, because for many women, the risks will outweigh the benefits,

such as strokes, blood clots, heart disease, increasing. So we have to be very careful. It is a drug with side effects. So if it's symptoms, then yes, speak to her doctor and see if the risks out by the way the benefits. But if it's not for symptoms, there is so much in the media at the moment that HRT is this wonder drug

that's going to stop you aging and stop you having dementia and all of these other conditions. And unfortunately, the evidence does not support that. So it needs to be why she's having it. And also, as we will say, with any of these health segments, of course, speak to your GP

about your specific issue. One more comment. I have to get a response from Carolla on this. Has this lady's husband, And what has this lady's husband done to help her sex drive? Surely we shouldn't be taking drugs just so men won't leave us. I find this pretty messed up thinking. Maybe he could unload the dishwasher a few times.

That will get the libido going. Can I just say he is actually an exceptional husband? He's doing up our house at the moment and he's working until all hours of the morning. As in having a full-time job, there's absolutely nothing. He will empty the dishwasher. He's very good. He doesn't have to do anything to. It's nothing to do with him.

It's to do with me. 8444.844 if you want to get in touch. I have to let Carol go. I have to let Dr. Joyce Harper go, but I want to thank both of them for bringing this issue to Women's Hour that continues to bring your comments in. Next, I want to turn to an email from a listener who wrote the following to us. Despite the significant airtime dedicated to issues of abuse and control in relationships on Women's Hour and other programs, I feel there's one story I've never heard. I cannot imagine that I'm alone. in my story and suspect there must be many women with similar experiences. I would love to hear the following topic disclosed openly.

Mothers who deliberately choose not to disclose their experiences of partner abuse in order to protect the children. We'll tackle a difficult issue in just a moment. But first, let's hear from that listener. Her story here is voiced by an actor. I also want to let you know that she will discuss rape. In the late 90s, I married my husband and had four children. They are now in their late teens and early 20s.

The abuse wasn't physical, it was subtle, manipulative control. Sex was treated as his right. If I said no, he used psychological tactics, keeping me awake all night or withdrawing affection. It became easier to say yes. There was coercive control. He didn't like me going anywhere without him and every decision had to be made through him.

All of this happened behind closed doors, Nobody knew. The children were unaware, though in hindsight they witnessed the coercive nature of the relationship. We played happy families when we were out. Over the years, he convinced me I was the problem and I was lucky to have him. The abuse became the norm. It wasn't until listening to a radio program in 2016 about coercive control. I realised this wasn't normal and I was in an abusive relationship. A key event brought me to my senses and I left him a few years ago. I told very few people the real reasons I left. I couldn't imagine how my teenage children would be able to comprehend or cope with the concept of the abuse that had been going on or without

them knowing. I felt it could do my children huge psychological harm to learn I had been regularly raped and controlled by their father and that I had let it happen. If I went public or reported it to the police, the whole village would know. My children might hear it talked about and would have to face comments and questions from their peers. What damage would it do to my children to have to deal with the fallout? How would a teenager understand the complexities of intimate partner violence and why I stayed so long? I didn't want them to deal with that. I also knew if I made allegations, my ex would deny them,

call me mad and vindictive, putting my children in the impossible position of choosing who to believe. I knew how convincing and manipulative he could be. I believe there was a real risk to my relationship with my children, maybe even losing them to my ex. So that's it. I stayed quiet. My children, now adults, don't know my story. Few friends do either. Surely this is common. How many others make that same decision. What do psychologists say? Is protecting children from this knowledge the right thing? Should I continue to keep quiet now they're adults?

How might my grown-up children respond to learning? I've lied to them. Such an upsetting experience. Thanks very much to our listener for sharing it. And the question is from her, does she tell her adult children? And if so, how and what are the potential repercussions? To discuss this, I'm joined by Jeremy Sherrington. CEO of Refuge and Dr Emma Katz,

Coercive Control Expert and Senior Lecturer in Criminology at Edge Hill University. You're both very welcome. Let me begin with you, Gemma. Your thoughts on what you've heard. I think I'd start by saying it's incredibly brave for your listener to share this story and there's a power in just that step that she's taken. I think with the women

that we speak to every day at Refuge and we speak to thousands of women. This is a very common occurrence. There are women that we speak to with children of all sorts of ages who are at different stages of sharing their experience with their friends and family. So this is not unique. She's not alone. It is her story to tell though and she will know better than anyone whether she's ready to tell it and who she's ready to tell it to. And so in terms of offering advice on whether or not she should share her experience with her children, I think we would say she can make that decision. It's never too late to make that decision. So when the time feels right, it will feel right. But there is support out there

if she needs it. From who, for example? Well, so there's a 24-hour domestic abuse helpline that is there for advice and support, so both emotional support and advice, but also can signpost to other services and other advice. And that service is also available to her children should she wish to share her experience with her children. We speak to a lot of family members every day on the National Domestic Abuse Helpline who are seeking to understand more about the experience of their family member. So there is support there, but the decision is hers to make. And I think what we hear from her is that ambivalence and fear about what might happen.

Dr Emma Katz is protecting adult children from this sort of knowledge the right thing to do or continuing to stay silent, does it protect them? I think this is such an important topic to raise and I think there's probably millions of women with this kind of predicament. So first of all, I want to say that this mum is, as Gemma said, so brave and that domestic abuse is always the responsibility of the perpetrator, not the victim survivor.

This mum didn't lie to her children as she put it in her letter. She's just been coping with an impossible situation as best as she could. So I think that one thing that research shows us is that children and younger teens are often more aware of the abuse than their mothers realize. And they may actually be quite aware of the abuse. And they might want to talk to their mother about it. But often the reason that they don't is that they're worried that if they bring up the subject, their mother will be upset. And the mum wants to bring it up with the children, but she thinks that they don't know about it and that bringing it up will upset them. So they both actually want to talk in some circumstances, but because of this misunderstanding, they don't.

But in the case of this letter writer, it's not clear to what extent her children are aware of the abuse. But one thing that she does say is they did witness the coercive nature of the relationship. And that for me is an important point because it might have impacted their views of relationships. They grew up seeing their dad coerce their mum right in front of them. So thanks to their dad's decision to do that, they have been exposed to his abuse of her. Not all of it, but some of it. And this might mean that they think it's okay for husbands to coerce their wives or that wives should expect to be mistreated. That might, might be the lesson they've taken from.

from this. So by bringing this up with them, that bringing it up with them could be protective rather than keeping, I can see why the mum thinks keeping silent could be protective, but also looking at it in a different light, bringing it up with them could be protective. And I do have some thoughts on how she could broach the subject with them. Yes. Well, let's talk about that because as our listener said specifically, she was raped by their father. And I don't know if there is a way to broach that in a way

to cause the least harm to them. So my feeling about that is that the children, certainly at this stage where it's so uncertain what they know and what they don't know that they don't necessarily need to know all these details right now. I think the first step

is to try and start a conversation with them in a gentle way about coercive behaviour and that it's wrong. So maybe the mum could watch a TV show or a movie when the kids are around individually or together, which features a coercive relationship, an emotionally abusive relationship. There's many different examples out there of media that show that.

And then maybe bring it up with the children to comment on the storyline and see how they react. Or maybe just talk about domestic abuse in a very general way and perhaps say to the children, I want you to be aware of domestic abuse because you may have to navigate these issues in your own romantic lives. And again, see how they react.

Because for the children, that might give them an open door to actually bring up some issues about how they saw their father treat their mother and they might spark a conversation with her themselves. But I think that the first thing that she needs to do is just gently test the waters with them. Do they want to talk to her? How do they react when relationships,

coercion is brought up. I think that is the first step here. And it needs to be done really gently and slowly. And I would really advise the mum, try and stay as calm as she can and have good support in place around her as she does this. Because it's much harder to be accused of being mad and vindictive, as she says her ex will accuse her of, if she's really calm in front of the children, if they can see that she's calm.

So I think that's an important step. And to have that kind of calm, she needs good support around her. Because this is a really emotional time for her. Yes. And, you know, we're getting so many comments that are coming in that are reflecting really experiences similar to our listener with different outcomes. I will read some of them that are coming in 844-4-844 if you would like to get in touch. Gemma, you mentioned that there is the hotline that indeed the listener could call or her children. But any more thoughts about broaching that,

topic because I suppose what she's concerned about is that they may turn against her, that they may side with her father, their father, for example. Yes, well, I mean, I really agree with Emma around how there can be gentle roots into these conversations and a lot of the work that we do as refuge with young people on this topic, we will begin by just having conversations about what healthy relationships look like And actually through that conversation about healthy relationships, it often leads to people sort of exploring more around things that might have happened to them that don't feel quite right. And we would call them sort of red flags when we're having those conversations, those slightly sort of controlling behaviours or psychological abuse that people might be experiencing that are less recognised forms of abuse actually. So that sort of the positive route in around healthy relationships could be one way to cut sort of speak about the conversation.

And then because the mum does talk about the fact that the children have witnessed coercive controlling behaviour, it might be that she just sort of starts with a broader conversation around there anything around how home life growing up that has affected you or you want to discuss more broadly and just that's a really sort of broad way to see if again the children are ready or curious to have a conversation. So they're just some of the ways we might speak with some of our survivors. And I suppose with a lot of those what I'm hearing is that you take those first steps and then try and judge it and of course go back to professionals

perhaps for those next steps because this is going to be a long process I would imagine instead of one conversation just some of them that are coming in that I want to share my adult children worship they're now dead father I couldn't talk to them about my side of things

when he was alive and it's harder now that he's dead I've left a bequest to refuge in my will and will donate regularly my only hope is that once I'm dead and they read my will, they examine the past. There was, and tell them, says another, I was in a controlling relationship and refused to keep it from my children because they would be confused about reality.

He did lie to them and told them I was lying and it did create issues, but it's the lesser of two evils. It's an impossible position to understand their father is abusive. How will they grow up to recognise it in others if you don't tell them? My children did find it hard and they love their dad, but they see him more clearly now when he tries to manipulate them. Another one, just heard the woman who discussed her abusive partner, whom she never revealed to her children about.

My answer is, no, do not keep it a secret. I lived in a house where my father was a similar type of man and my mother stayed with him for my sake. Only did she realise that the abuse already involved me, he took his own life when I was 17 and she was shocked when I told her how the relationship between us had been and she said she had no idea. It would have prevented if only she'd left him,

when I was a much younger teenager. There are others on the other side as well. It's a conversation. I'll read some more of them as we go through the hour, but I do want to let people know if you've been affected by any of the issues we've been discussing. Please do visit the BBC's Action Line,

and I want to thank both our guests, both Gemma Sherrington, CEO of Refuge and Dr Emma Katz, Coercive Control Expert and a senior lecturer in Criminology at Edge Hill University. Thanks to both of you. now I hope you are enjoying listener week it's a week that I really love presenting and getting to meet

and hear the ideas of our listeners they're so varied as you probably already heard this morning and perhaps yesterday I'm intrigued by the issues and the experiences that you want to discuss today no exception but I'm wondering is there a story you feel we are missing is there something that others need to know about or something you want an answer to or maybe it's your unusual life experience.

Like Margaret's, did you catch her long-distance marriage yesterday, husband in Australia, she's here? Maybe there's a story that you want to share. Well, you can text Woman's Hour 84844 on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email us through our website, but get them in as soon as you can because it's just a week and we're already on Tuesday.

Let us turn to poetry next. Our listener, Jess, wrote to tell us about a poem that she came across on social media about the postpartum period calling it absolutely beautiful. Not the period, the poem. She added there are hundreds of comments across Instagram and TikTok

from mothers feeling the same way as this poem expressed. She says, I would love to hear more from this poet. Well, we have tracked down the poet. Her name is Amy Williams. She is a poet and spoken word artist. She's sitting opposite me in the studio right now. Welcome to Women's Hour.

Thank you so much. It's good to be here. Your poem is called six to eight weeks. Why? So six to eight weeks is, you know, the period that you will find if you're looking for an idea of when you might start to feel normal, postpartum. I know for me, kind of in the days and weeks that followed to have my baby, I would kind of every now and then Google, when will my body feel normal again, when might my mind start to feel normal again. And that was the answer I got again and again. And when the six to eight weeks rolled around? Didn't feel normal. I still felt tired.

I still felt like my body needed attention, that I needed to continue to slow down. But I didn't feel like that fit with kind of the general consensus. You know, why don't we hear the poem? Because I think it just puts it all together so beautifully. You've had a huge response to it, as I mentioned. Let's listen. I'm hobbling around using a pram like a crutch

Not sure what's going on I wasn't told this much The machine that she grew in is grown in, sprung leaks Why is this still going on? After six to eight weeks See six to eight weeks is the time frame you'll find If you've just given birth and you want peace of mind Internet, baby books, health visitors are sure

Six to eight weeks You'll feel normal once more But it's ten weeks and I'm using a pram like a crutch throbbing underneath where they stitched after I was cut and ache in my spine every step feels abnormal what do you expect you asked for that epidural

six to eight weeks to heal from nine months of stretching head in the toilet throat burning and retching six to eight weeks we get 56 days to bounce back from the 280 it takes for their bodies to be made 280 days of organs moving to make room abdomen sore as it swells and balloons 280 days of shifting ribcage and hips so why am I embarrassed that I can't sit after just 56

crying on the toilet putting off going for a piss crying when I imagine the sorry state of my bits crying as I tried to latch her onto my sore tits they say they told me everything they didn't tell me this yeah midwives did tell me about monitoring my contractions and antenatal classes told me everything that might happen on the day that baby came I got all the bits of birth

As I clutch her pram like a crutch, I wonder Are we not worth being told that No two bodies, of course, no two births can be the same? Why are we given all the same measures? Why are the same timeframes? Why was I pushed into a race of millions of mothers To get back in work or the gym Or the bedroom before one another

And in this race of millions, I feel nothing but alone? So is it any wonder when I tell the GP now? No, I don't have worries. No, I don't feel ill. No, I don't think I'm. need help yet i'll go back on the pill and i'm not alone i'm not this cautionary lesson i'm just one in ten experiencing postpartum depression there's about one in 25 with post-traumatic stress disorder but there's no resources and so it is a bit too late to warn them so why aren't we acting early

before people become statistics give out advice on postpartum tea bags biscuits replace trainers for slippers scrap this race back to health slow down get to know you're new self. Let's ply them with information about pyjamas, rest and tea. Give their body grace. Don't treat it like a machine because they're human, struggling, using a pram, like a crutch, hoping somebody will notice this is all a bit too much. Wow. Thank you. It's really quite something. I heard it for the first time yesterday and, you know, I've listened to it a couple of times since then and every time I get something different from it. What was the response when you did it for the time to public. Yeah, the response has been, you know, incredibly overwhelming. You know,

I've read this poem at poetry nights where, you know, there's been no mothers there and the poem has still been really well received. People coming up to me and saying, you know, they're wondering about their own mother's experience and things like that. But since I uploaded it online, the response has been, you know, very urgent and, you know, it's resonated with a lot of people, which in one way is lovely when you create something, you want people to resonate with your work. But on the other side, I'm quite upset that so many people can resonate with this experience.

Yeah, and that expectation that's there. But the other part is the silence, that people hadn't told you and that, I suppose, why not? Yeah, and it really confuses me because pregnancy, it's really widely accepted that pregnancy is uncomfortable. birth is painful.

Postpartum, the baby's here, and that's the focus. And I think maybe sometimes the person that brought the baby here just kind of fades into the background a little bit and so does the importance of their healing and the discomfort that they maybe continue to feel. How did you write it? When did you write it? So I wrote it actually a year postpartum. The way that I write is I will get an idea

and I'll pop it in my notes page and come back to it. and one of the lines in my poem that says, but it's 10 weeks and I'm using a pram like a crutch. I wrote that 10 weeks postpartum and I didn't come back to it because it was too painful. It was too much for me to process. And then, yeah, about a year postpartum,

I read something about the statistics of maternal mental health conditions and realized how I wasn't alone. I wasn't, it wasn't something for me to be embarrassed about. And so I decided to write something that maybe felt a bit more empowering. I just see somebody that's messaging there saying it brought tears to their eyes while listening to you. And I saw that with the comments. I mean, it's been watched over a million times on one of your social media feeds. What do you think needs to be done?

I mean, what would have helped you, apart from this expectation of people to bounce back? And machines was a word that was in my head when you were talking about, all these women having to snap back and then be thrown back into the workforce or whatever it might be. I think, you know, if poetry could inform policies and public opinion, that would be fantastic. I think we need to bring postpartum into the discussion when we talk about birth and babies. You know, we need to talk about the importance to continue to heal and to recognize that healing and prioritize it. And I think we need, you know, a healthcare system that facilitates that. as well because if the conversation disappears, so does the care that wraps around those people

in that period. And I know it was tricky for you falling between the cracks, shall we say, we're trying to get a health visitor or a GP appointment. Yeah, definitely. So that's also like the irony of the six to eight weeks title. I got beyond six to eight weeks and hadn't been seen by a health visitor or a GP and I should have been seen within that period. And there was a really long time where I wondered, would I have felt all of this? Would I have felt so overlooked and maybe lost in this time if I had had a healthcare professional to speak to about these things? And I'm just one of many. And you should have had that appointment, but it didn't happen for various reasons. But most, I suppose, should be scheduled. And I suppose we should say to people

as well to make that happen. And at times people say they've had to chase it when you're probably in the least humor of something that you want to chase. Some messages coming in for you, Amy. Let's go through them. What an amazingly resonant poem, even for me, with those feelings, were over 30 years ago, Denise, age 65. Another, I am 10 weeks postpartum today. My baby greedily nuzzling my breast for the fourth time since 4 o'clock this morning.

My eyes are welling up at this poem. We'll be using his pram as a crutch later this morning. Thank you. Another sobbing after listening to 6 to 8 weeks. is nearly 18, but it brought it all back. How hard it was and how alone I felt my daughter's father even refused me a second child because he thought I was too weak to cope. And I think, you know, those voices coming in, they, you know, echo the comment section on

my poem. There are people saying, I wonder if I would have had a second child if I'd known how hard this was going to be. I wonder if I could have been stronger. And I think it's so important that we realise this is. this is a universal experience and, you know, the kind of question that I'm left with is just why? Why is this something that we all experience? And why is it something that we have to continue to experience, you know, 30 years beyond, you know, when our grandmothers were experiencing

it too? It's so interesting because in some ways we have more comfort now, in a way, perhaps they had a village back then. Yeah. But women have experienced those same feelings, no matter, you know, which generation we're talking about. Yeah. How are you and your little one now? We're great and I think, you know, I feel so lucky to be at a point where I can speak about that experience so freely. You know, I experience so much joy on a daily basis and I feel so strong to be able to read my poetry and to reveal the way that I maybe felt in early motherhood so that I can hopefully give something to somebody else. Yeah, there's other great ones as well. What was it? The baby carries the bread.

Yeah, yeah. Babies make the bread. If somebody else wants to go check out Amy Williams on her various social media platforms, you won't be disappointed. Thank you so much for coming in. One more for you. Such an amazing poem. So many of us women can relate to it.

Thank you. And that is Val getting in touch this morning on Women's Hour. Amy, one of our listener week requests that we're very happy to be able to make happen. 8444-4-4 if you'd like to get in touch on anything that you're hearing in the program. so far, or if you've an idea for future listener week slot, but though you want to get your skates on and get it into us.

Well, now, on to something different. Before dating apps or swiping, left or right, finding love often meant relying on introductions, look, or perhaps even a matchmaker. In the 1980s, Heather Heba Percy set up one of the UK's first professional dating agencies offering a more personal a more discreet route to romance and to find that perfect match.

She wrote, telling us all about her work and joins me this morning in the Women's Hour Studio. Good morning. Hello. Great to have you in with us. What made you want to set up a dating agency? Well, it was really strange because I'd arrived back in this country

after living in Ibiza for very many years. My parents went to live there. And I came back with two small children, very little money. and I felt guilty about the divorce that I'd gone through. So I wanted to put something back into society. I went to the Samaritans. I went through the back door rather than the front door,

but I became so involved in it that it really gave me quite a huge lift. And although I didn't have a job at that time, I spent quite a lot of time working on the phones and meeting people, as we did in those days. Anyway, to cut a long story short, I made a lot of friends through the Samaritans. And one friend I made was called Susie McIntosh. Sadly, she died of cancer.

But she and I would work on the phones together. And at the end of the day, naughtily we'd go off and have a drink and sort of, you know, have a chat and sort of calm down and then go our separate ways. And she did become a close friend as well. And one evening we were sitting there in the pub in shows. which was where the centre was and she said to me I've had a lot of farmers this evening on the phone and I said well I've had three and she said well what do you think is going on

and I said well I do know that a lot of the women who would have become farm's wives were moving away from home and they wanted to go to university and they didn't want to become farmers wives so she said something to me it was a throwaway remark it was quite funny really she said I know what we're going to do because she was in the same position She had kids.

You know, she needed to make some money. She said, we're going to start a club for lonely farmers. And I said, lonely farmers club? A lonely farmers club. And I said, what do you mean? She said, well, let's get them out there dating. And I said, well, how the hell do we do that? Anyway, to cut along the story short, we started it.

And we knew nothing about it. We had this old typewriter. You've got to remember, no computers in those days, nothing. and we had this funny little photocopier that every time you did a photocopy it almost spat back at you it didn't like working for us but we had a photocopier

and so we created a little brochure and we put an advertisement in Farmers Weekly Very good idea and when they came as they did how did you know or how do you know because I imagine it's a skill that you don't lose that two people

would work together? I don't think I did. I have to be really honest now. I don't think I knew. If someone said to me today, can you work people out? Do you know how to interview people? Can you get the idea of that person?

I would say to you now, with absolute clarity, within 10 minutes, I can work someone out. But that sounds really arrogant. I don't mean it to be. But no, but if you've had a lot of people, you've sat opposite a lot of people,

a lot of people have gone through your hands, so you get a feeling for somebody and you can figure it out. But I need to know, were there any great success stories? Yes, there were. But the sad thing about the dating industry, and we are talking about the traditional dating industry here, the people who come to us are people who don't want anyone else to know what's happened. Oh, so they will go away, they'll get married, and you never hear from them again. Oh, I understand. Okay. So the way they met was at that time, the 1980s was stigmatised.

Absolutely. We even had to have a back door in the farmhouse for them. An actual back door. An actual back door. So they didn't sort of, you know, arrive at the front of the farmhouse. They would go around the back way. But you must know of some that got together. Yes. Oh, yes, I do. And one of the lovely weddings I went to, it was a woman in Bedfordshire. and I she was difficult I mean this is many many years ago and I happen to know that she's no longer you know with us sadly

and she was really frustrated with us because if people don't meet people the moment you take them on they can get angry and upset but you've got to realize it's loneliness you know that makes them that way so that's the negative side of being a traditional matchmaker you get everything thrown at you anyway to get back to the story So we were having difficulties with her And she said, I don't want to travel very far

And I said, well, I've just interviewed this man Who lives in North Wales And she nearly went berserk She said, I'm not going to North Wales to meet this man And I said, look, please And I said, on the way back Just come and have a cup of coffee with us And we'll talk things over if it doesn't work out

So she said, well, this is the last introduction I'm going to do with you So off she toddled She went to North Wales And Geraldine, my admin manager and I Was sort of sitting there waiting with bated breath And remember there were any ordinary phones in those days No mobile phones, nothing

And we waited and we waited And she said, I'm really worried about this And I said, I am too Perhaps she's going to turn up any moment now at the offices And want her money back So she said, well I think Maybe we'll phone him and find out he was a charming man he used to run a little railway a proper little Victorian railway down there

and he was just lovely and I couldn't have imagined that she wouldn't like him anyway so we phoned him and he said hello and I said I'm just checking up to know how your date went he said um well he said it it went okay and I said well are you seeing her again he said well you're Yes, no. And I said, what do you mean? And he said, well, she never went home. So it was successful. Very successful. And then we were invited to the wedding. Oh, my goodness. So from that very first interview, how lovely. I mean, it is, it must be a wonderful way in lots of ways when it works out to have that job. And you're still working in it? I am still working in it. I sold my dating agencies, but they're still alive today. I'll tell you

just one other. Quite funny but sad story has to be very quick. I know, but maybe I have to go off air now. I don't know. Why? We'll have to talk about dating because I do need to get onto another story of dreams, but I will continue to think about this matchmaking and perhaps we can chat to you another time as well, Heather. But I want to thank you so much for coming in, Heather Heba Percy, who set up one of the UK's first professional dating agencies and has lots of stories to tell. Thank you very much

for sharing some of them with us. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Now, are you one of those people who likes to share their dreams? I'm talking about the type after sleep, not life goals. Listener Sarah Hutchinson is, and she wants to know more about them, specifically on why she's having more vivid memorable dreams

during these recent heat waves. She also wants to know whether women's experience of dreaming is linked to the menstrual cycle. Sarah joins me now, along with Caroline Horton, who's a professor of sleep and cognition and director of the Dreams Lab, that is at Bishop Gross Test University. Welcome to you both. Sarah, fill us in a little on the dreams, the vivid dreams that you've been having.

Yeah, good morning. Thanks so much for having me on. So my dreams started, like my memory of dreaming started at a very young age. I've always had quite vivid dreams to the extent that I was even put into therapy by recommendation of my GP because I could. couldn't tell the difference between what was happening in my real life and what was actually happening in my sleep. And so I think off the back of that, I've always had a bit of a fascination. And dreams can feel so personal, which I think everyone can resonate with. We all wake up and we have this dream. And to us, it feels so intimate and real. And then you tell it to someone

and it makes absolutely no sense and is complete gibberish. And I think I just, you just, you very closely aligned with my dreams and can feel waves of my dreaming based on what's going on in my personal life, whether it be when I was a child and I was in a play for getting a line, even though the plate had already closed, but I couldn't stop dreaming about it. And then also in this heat wave that we've been having in London, very much feeling like everything is going on around me within my bedroom, but I'm still dreaming and I recognize that it is a dream. So in talking about that, I had some anecdotal stories from friends and some friends don't remember dreams at all. So why do I remember these dreams so vividly and other people have no recognition or align with that same story?

So interesting. Let us bring in the woman who's been thinking about dreams as well. That's Caroline Horton. Caroline, good to have you with us. So what do you think with a little of? Sarah has a number of questions there, but perhaps we'll start with the heat wave. Can how hot it is affect your dreams? Yeah, we think so. I mean, there's surprisingly little concrete evidence around this, but anecdotally, and as Sarah has described, we probably all have experiences that we can recognise.

And the reason we think that the heat, as well as a number of other environmental factors, may influence our dreams, is indirectly through sleep. And we're likely sleeping, more lightly, which means that we can carry our dream memories over to our waking lives much more readily. And for somebody like Sarah, who's clearly very kind of close to her dreams and likely has high dream recall anyway, that effect can be really pronounced.

High dream recall. There's a new term for me. Why do we dream? Oh, I wish I could answer that with absolute knowledge. But we've evolved to dream likely because we've evolved fantastic big brains and we have mental content and consciousness when we're awake. There's no reason to think that should stop when we go to sleep. We activate lots of memories, lots of emotions when we go to sleep, likely to help us work through those meaningful experiences, chart them away, file them, remember the things that we really need to recall for the future. And dreaming is likely the product of the activation of those memories. And then again, we can just carry those experiences over to wake.

Sometimes for some people like Sarah, that happens a lot. And for many people, of course, they'd swear blind that they never dream. We know that they do. And we can get them in the lab or wake them. them up from home and they will be able to remember something. But I'm going to use that term dream recall again. There are huge individual differences in that. Some people remember their dreams really readily and some not much at all. Interesting. I know Sarah as well you wanted to ask about the menstrual cycle. Yeah. I was just curious to know if during certain parts of our mental

cycle, if we dream more vividly or have a stronger dream recall, as you say, during certain pieces ever. I feel like sometimes I get more restful nights, aka when I dream less. Maybe when I'm on my period and I feel a little bit lower energy and a little bit maybe calmer. But leading up to my period, I can feel very energized and have a lot of things on my mind, a lot of hormones running through my body. And yeah. So let's throw that over. Hormonal fluctuations. Would they make a difference? Yeah, I was nodding vigorously while Sarah was talking there. Yes, absolutely. And evidence shows exactly as you said, in that week or so in the run-up to having a period that our hormones,

estrogen and our progesterone levels reduce. That again impacts on our sleep, so that it means that we have reduced melatonin, our sleepy hormone. That means we sleep less. It can change our temperature. We sometimes have this increase in temperature in the run-up to menstruating. And this all happens over the perimenopausal period as well. The other thing that changes...

What happens in there? It's going to be a lot of people, because we started talking about very much. menopause and testosterone and all that stuff, dreams different in the perimenopause? We think so, again, indirectly due to our increased dream recall as a result of sleeping more lightly. But the other thing that's affected, and again, many of us have experience of this, is that we have increased feelings of anxiety, aggression, anger in the run-up to our periods. And again, as a result of that reduced estrogen, so we're less kind of.

that means that we're less sort of relaxed and able to switch off for sleep. Also, then if we have kind of a higher emotional load in the day, we've got kind of more residual emotion that we need to think about and process when we go to sleep. So we've got this melting part of factors that are going to increase our likelihood of dreaming, kind of particularly arousing dreams. We're already closer to wakefulness because we're sleeping less well, and we've got lots of anxiety that's probably also affecting our sleep as well. So I mean, this is related, but even if we take some of those places when hormones are fluctuating a lot, I'm not sure exactly when that is, but are there differences between men and women when it comes to dreams?

Yeah, that's really pronounced, actually. That's the strongest effects that we can find in dreams. So not only differences in dream content, so women in general, but particularly over the perimenopause period, tend to dream more of kind of social interactions and family members. Men tend to have more slightly aggressive dreams. There's also a really strong difference in dream recall, and nobody knows why. Which women, sorry, go ahead. Yeah, so women have higher dream recall, and men generally have less of an ability to remember their dreams. We don't know why.

It doesn't map on to memory abilities or visual memory or things. But it's a really profound effect, and it's still a little bit of a mystery. So interesting. Back to you, Sarah, for our last. 30 seconds or so. Have you learned something? Are you going to start, I don't know, trying to record your dreams in any other way? Yeah. No, it's so fascinating and especially hearing the difference between men and women. It's just, it's incredibly insightful. And I love collecting people's stories and I was recently looking at that you can work on dream recall. I had a good

friend who did that. And so I think journaling would be a great way to start getting into that. Why not? I want to thank our listener, Sarah Hutchinson, for getting in touch all about her dreams. And Caroline Horton, who is from the Dreams Lab at Bishop Grostest University. Wonderful to have both of you. We're going to talk tomorrow about not becoming a grandmother and some of the societal expectations around that. I do hope you'll join me again for the next edition of Listener Week. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

Hello, I'm Brian Cox. I'm Robinin's and we're back for a new series of The Infinite Monkey Cage. we have our 201st extravaganza where we're going to talk about how animals emote went around trains and tunnels or something like that, I'm not entirely sure. We're doing one on potatoes. Of course we're doing one on potatoes.

You love potatoes. I know, but... Yeah, you love chips, you love mash. I'll only enjoy it if it's got curry sauce on it. We've got techno fossils, moths versus butterflies and a history of light. That will do, won't it? Listen first on BBC Sounds.