Woman's Hour - Listener Week: Ukrainian women soldiers, Long lost families, Strong women, Refugees, Eating Alone

Episode Date: August 22, 2023

For listener week, you, our listeners, decide what we cover on the programme.Listener Liz got in touch to say she wanted to know more about the women fighting on the front line in Ukraine. Nuala McGovern is joined by BBC journalist and reporter Olga Malchevska, whose home in Kyiv was bombed at the start of the war. She’s been back to Ukraine to meet three women who are fighting for their country – we’ll hear from one of them who was severely injured when the car she was in drove over a landmine. As a child Julie De’Ath always wished she had an older brother, ‘an easy pass to get a boyfriend’, she said. Two years ago at the age of 67, she finally got one when she received a message on Facebook from a man claiming to be that brother. Her mother had given birth to a baby boy in the 1940s but being unmarried at the time, gave him up for adoption. It was a secret her mother took to her grave. Julie contacted Woman’s Hour as part of Listener week to share her story for the first time. We also speak to her long-lost half-brother, Tom, and to Miriam Silver, Consultant Clinical Psychologist, who specialises in parenting and children who have been adopted. Victorian strongwoman Vulcana was known for her jaw-dropping feats of strength and her breathtaking beauty. Listener Eric suggested her story to us. He asked that we talk to author Rebecca F John, whose historical novel, Vulcana, fictionalises her life. She tells Nuala about the remarkable, and trailblazing, performer. Plus, Sam Taylor, Britain’s Strongest Woman 2020, tells us what it’s like being a modern-day strongwoman. Franceska Murati is a 27-year-old businesswoman and this year’s Miss London. But there’s more to this beauty queen that meets the eye. At 4 years old, she arrived in the UK alongside her parents and older sister. They had escaped war-torn Kosovo, smuggling themselves on the back of a lorry. She shares her story.It’s something we’ve all probably done at one point or another - eating alone. Whether that’s taking yourself out to a restaurant you’ve always wanted to go to, grabbing a meal while you’re on a solo trip, or cooking for just yourself at home. But despite how common eating alone is - given that in 2022 the Office of National Statistics showed almost one in three households in the UK were people living alone - some might say there’s still a stigma around it. So how do we get around it? Nuala talks to Woman’s Hour listener Julia Georgallis and food writer Clare Finney.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey00:00 Opener 01:34 Ukraine Female Soldiers 16:08 Long Lost Family 30:05 Strong Women 39:19 Franceska Murati 49:42 Eating Alone

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour and to day two of Listener Week, where we hand the reins over to you when it comes to this programme. So all this week, you decide the conversations. Yesterday, if you were with us, you'll know we looked at kleptomania, the heavy metal scene,

and attended a football viewing party. Today, we have the women fighting on the front lines in Ukraine, discovering a long-lost relative, the joy of eating alone, strong women, powerlifting strong. And we also hear from a woman who fled Kosovo during the war and is now

Miss Central London. So thanks to you and your eclectic agenda. We are still hungry for more of your great ideas. So whether they're filled with joy, sadness, rage or curiosity, do keep them coming. And we also want to know today, what is the best life advice you've received from your young children? Later, we'll be hearing some wise words from our youngest listeners. Here's a flavour. Hello my name is Florence and I'm five and my advice is stay kind and look where you're going. Good advice indeed. You can text the programme the number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour or email us through our website.

You can send a WhatsApp message or a voice note using the number 03700 100 444. Looking forward to hearing them. Now, a year and a half ago, on the 24th of February 2022, Russia invaded Ukraine. It was the start of a war that made headlines all over the world.

And although it might not be on the front pages as often anymore, that conflict is still going on in Ukraine. And one of our listeners, Liz, got in touch and she asked if we could feature the women involved in the fighting. You might have seen pictures of Ukrainian soldiers at the front. But did you know that of those soldiers, around 16,000 are women? An estimated 5,000 of those women are on the front line. Olga Mavcheska is the BBC News Ukrainian reporter

that you may have heard from throughout this war. She's been to her home country of Ukraine to find out more about the women soldiers and joins me now. Welcome, Olga. Hello, Newland. Thank you very much for having me on the programme. I think some of our listeners might remember seeing you at one point on our TV screens when you actually went back to see your flat after it had been bombed in Ukraine.

And I'm so sorry you've gone through that. But when you look back at that time, what comes to mind? Well, to be honest, it's all like a one long day, which has never ended. And I just want to wake up, honestly. And now I'm having first probably days off for the last almost two years, trying to have some reflection and understand where am I now.

And obviously, life has changed dramatically to all, to me, to my family, to all Ukrainians and for pretty much all the world, I'm pretty sure. But I think in my case, it made me stronger. And as many Ukrainians who managed to survive, it made them stronger. And it made them realize that there is just one day and you have to leave it today and that's what i was hearing from other ukrainians and from ukrainians my amazing ukrainian friends who are with me now and some of them have arrived from ukraine as well to where we can see each other and obviously everybody is trying to help each other as much as possible and what we've

been seeing through this time is a remarkable rise of the civil society when people do not wait for any help from outside but they are trying to help each other as much as possible rebuilding the bombed houses trying to help each other with medical supplies, even with children, you know. So that's a remarkable help which is coming out from everywhere and from all over the world. And from what I've been hearing from my Ukrainian friends and from Ukrainians I've been reporting about is the extreme gratitude to everybody who has been helping through these difficult times all this time, really.

And, you know, you talk there about those transformations taking part in society. And that's the reason we have you on today, because you made a documentary, both for radio and TV, about the women fighting on the front line. You met three women, Irina, Evgeny and Andriana. What was the thing that struck you about these women as you went to find out about these transformed lives that they now have? Can you imagine these three women are Ukrainian female fighters. All of them are female soldiers who have been literally fighting on the front line. Two of them are female snipers, Evgenia and Irina.

And Irina is right now in the middle of the counteroffensive in the east of Ukraine. And Evgenia is with her two daughters because she has given, she gave birth to her second daughter and now she's on maternity leave. And can you imagine being a sniper on maternity leave?

It's something absolutely surreal for me. And Andriana is recovering from a very heavy, from very heavy injuries she got on the front line. And she also can't see her son. What was, what drove me to see them was that, can you imagine all these women, they are roughly the same age as me. We have the same backgrounds.

Some of them are even from the same city as myself. And one of them, Adriana, she has graduated from the same university as myself. And it was absolutely surreal for me to think that at some point our ways could be so different and that they would have to join the front line i can imagine that some of your classmates or some of the buddies from your university um or just people from the same age as you and the same city who would be the same women you are you know talking to or having the same kind of background, education, peaceful life, career aspirations, families, and suddenly they would join the frontline and become soldiers. And not because they just wanted to do so from their childhood, but just because your

homes would be bombed. And what age are we talking about, Olga? Forgive me for stepping over you. Well, that's the age range from 30 to 40 years old. And older, my young is 40. So, well, I'm not hired in my age. I'm 39. And Andreana is 35 or 36.

Yes. And Evgenia is 30 in her early 30s, really. And Irina is in her early 30s as well. Let us play a clip to give our listeners an idea of one of the women you met, Andriyana. In December last year, the vehicle she was in drove over a landmine and she suffered severe injuries. She's now in a rehabilitation hospital. My name is Andriyana. I'm Ukrainian. I'm a servicewoman. Andriyana is a female soldier in the special unit of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

And according to Russian media, Andriyana is dead. In the special operation zone in Ukraine, an SUV was blown up, in which there was a Ukrainian nationalist. This Russian television report is just one of hundreds accusing Andriyana of being a Ukrainian Nazi. Others claim she was killed by Russians, describing her death in graphic detail. We've traveled to Ukraine and found Andriyana in a place we can't name for her safety. She is not surprised by the Russian news. They are professionals in propaganda. Everything that they are touching is about propaganda. It's like funny for me. I even don't know what to say. I'm alive and I will protect my country. Now, how much, Olga, is Russian media targeting people like Andriyana and Andriyana in particular? Well, it's difficult to speak about a certain statistics because there is no such statistics.

It's extremely difficult to measure. But what I heard from the organizations, Ukrainian volunteers helping Ukrainian women on the front line is that according to their observations, female soldiers are being targeted several times more than male soldiers. And also, it's a bit of a, there is a different pattern of how they are being targeted. Let's say, it's not just saying that they were killed, but it's also, there are also the attempts in those disinformation outlets to dehumanize them as much as possible. Let's say they're being portrayed as Nazis, but not only that, they are also being shamed and victimized

because of not being mothers or leaving their children, or there is the language of hatred being used, describing their their appearance describing their personal life or inventing stories about their personal life and obviously that's very difficult for them to read about but i was speaking about to adriana and evgenia about this and they said that they understand it and even though they continue being public, well, for Andriana, it's more difficult to be public because she's in the special unit of Ukrainian armed forces, and she is not that active on social media as Evgenia is.

And Evgenia, because she's currently in maternity leave, she decided to be more active to raise those issues and to try to help those women who are on the front line she is being more public and she's being targeted extremely and she said that that's she understands that that's the attempt to silence her and that's why she will not be silenced but obviously it has dramatic impact on them and especially they're worried on the impact about the impact it has on their families because let's say andreana has a has a son and he's a child and well he is able to understand russian and obviously those attacks appear in russian but also it's about the

surrounding of their the environment he is being raised so the relatives are being targeted he's being targeted and that's why andreana is trying to keep him out of the public size and but yeah that's why we didn't use him in his picture but you do talk about andreana does as well about her son and she hadn't seen him for seven months. Let's listen to a little of what she said. Two days ago, I was talking with him and he said to me, that mom remember when we were in family and when we love each other.

So after two years of absence of me and my dad, he tried to remember a period when we were a family and we love each other and i tried to explain him that we know our family and we love each other but the period is such it's quite something it kind of gives you a real concrete idea Olga of what is on the line for these people as they go forward so Adriana is in one part of the military but we talked about Irina and also Evgenia and I was struck when you were speaking to them that one of the commanders said to you that a woman often makes a better sniper, because Irina and Evgenia are snipers, than a man. Explain that to us. It was also quite interesting for me.

And thank you for that observation. I asked why as well. And Evgenia's response was that a woman is more focused and if a man hesitates to make a shot a woman would not because women usually make quicker decisions and according to their observations what they said and on the front line they said that in the beginning obviously they have to overcome a huge stigma as women on the front line, they said that in the beginning, obviously, they have to overcome a huge stigma as women on the front line. But then when they prove themselves there, they're getting huge respect because their male colleagues actually see that they make a huge help in the battalion or in any military unit they're in because of their calmness and they don't panic. So what they were saying to me is that in those situations when the situation got extremely heated and there was a woman there, and if a woman didn't panic, men would not panic as well

because they would feel that, okay, here is a woman who is considered to be weaker and she's not panicking. And so I don't have a right to do so as well. And that keeps them more focused also. And if she has to be a sniper, she's also, well, according to what they explained to me, right, because I've never tried to be a sniper, obviously, and I hope I would never have to. But what they explained to me is that at some point, they had to lay on the ground for five, even sometimes eight hours

without any single movement and just stay focused. And then they just had to make one shot. And after that, after they fired that shot, they had to change the position really quickly. So they would not have a time or space for to give any kind of frustration emotions to allow themselves any frustration emotions and they they would just be focused and do that and so they yes and that's what makes them better snipers according to the discussions that you had with them Olga thank you so much for coming on and speaking to us. I just want to let people know

your documentary is Ukraine, Women at War on BBC iPlayer or you can listen to it on BBC Sounds. It's compelling and it's also one of the episodes of the Five Minutes on podcast.

Olga Malchevska, thank you. Now, I mentioned Listener Week and we're talking about all the stories that you're sending in and today we also want to know about the words of wisdom being passed down the generations but the other way around perhaps than the way you're thinking we've been asking you to share your children's best life advice as you've

heard and you haven't disappointed here's Florence, Ollie, Teddy and Max. Hello, my name is Florence and I'm five and my advice is stay kind and look where you're going and stay happy and make sure you don't hurt other people. Hello, I'm Ollie. My advice is grown-ups should be more steadier. Hello, my name is Teddy and my advice to all grown-ups is life is basically this thing

where when you've done something, you can't undo it. You just have to go on and keep trying your best to be better the next day. Hello, I'm Max and I'm eight. And my advice is people should spend more time together. So the pearls of wisdom that your kids have shared with you, share with us. You can text WOMENSHOUR 84844. Now, as a child, Julie Death always wished she had an older brother. An easy pass to get a boyfriend, she said.

But two years ago, at the age of 67, she finally got one when she received a message on Facebook from a man claiming to be a brother. Her mother had given birth to a baby boy in the 1940s but being unmarried at the time gave him up for adoption and it was a secret her mother took to the grave. Julie contacted Woman's Hour as part of Listener

Week to share her story for the very first time and we also speak to her long lost half-brother Tom and to Miriam Silver consultant clinical psychologist who specialises in parenting and children who have been adopted. So what impact does discovering a family member have on those involved and also how to reconcile the feelings when you hear previously unknown actions of your mother? Julie, good to have you with us. Welcome. How did you feel first reading that message from Tom? Very surprised. I actually forwarded it on to a friend and said if he asked for my bank details, I know it's a scam. However, he didn't. So I ended up calling him

and we spoke for about an hour. But yeah, I was very surprised. It was very unexpected. What were you expecting, Tom, when you sent that message? That's a good question. Oh, my thing's gone. That's all right. We can hear you fine. Okay.

Well, it was a pivotal moment because I knew that when I did this, nothing would ever be the same again. Mm-hmm. That I was opening a can, hopefully not of worms, and things would change, things would move on, and they did. But probably impossible to predict what the feelings would be after meeting. What was it like, Tom? After meeting?

When we met in Cambridge, it was as if, I felt as if I'd known my sisters forever. There was a real connect, a real, if you like, blood, DNA. We are one. We come from the same background. And I felt that as soon as I had met them in Cambridge in 2021. And for you, Julie? Well, certainly when I first saw Tom, I thought he was, if he wore a dress, he'd be my mum in drag, to be perfectly honest. I don't think I really felt that connection that Tom did initially. I feel that there's so much that we haven't shared, so much history that we don't have with each other, which I find a huge

challenge to be honest. I get on so well with Tom and it is like I have known him forever, but it's just not having that shared history I struggle with, really. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Because we talked about it. You were 67 when you found this out. But, you know, the part, of course, that connects both of you is your mother and Tom's biological mother. And did you you never knew that tom existed and i'm wondering how you feel now about your mother's actions and her keeping it a secret she has died so you have no way to confront her no no i i feel angry with her to be honest and for not saying anything at any point and when I think back over the years there were so many opportunities where she could have said something she could have shared it and she didn't and I feel that she was either embarrassed or I don't know upset about

it she'd maybe put it to the back of her mind. And, you know, if you say something to yourself enough times, it becomes the truth, doesn't it? And I just wonder if that was what happened with mum. But I do feel cross with her because she did have the opportunity when she was alive. And she definitely had the opportunity to leave something in her paperwork, because she was a very organised woman as far as that was concerned. And she didn't. So we went another five years before Tom contacted me. And, you know, that's another five years wasted. There was a story around Christmas Day, as I understand.

Julie, do you want to start that for our listeners? Sure. Tom was born on Christmas Day. Half past six, I think it was, wasn't it, Tom? Six twenty-five, near enough. And mum, obviously, in latter years, always came to us on Christmas Day. But for years and years, she hated Christmas Day with a vengeance. She just hated it. And, of course, now I understand why Tom was born on Christmas Day. She always wanted to be home prior to half past six, a real bone of contention, because one of us had to drive her home and that one couldn't drink on Christmas Day until she'd been taken home.

So, yeah, there was all that around Christmas Day. And she actually lied about why she hated Christmas Day. And again, it would have been such an opportunity for her to say the reasons why she didn't like that day but she didn't and i want to my my go ahead my wife my wife always said that in the run-up to christmas i spent an awful lot of time uh when social media was available and when computers were around uh searching and searching and searching for some kind of information about her. It wasn't available on Scotland's People and so on. The information wasn't available.

I searched passenger lists to see if she'd gone to Canada or Australia or anything, and I didn't find out anything. And it was really Christine's efforts, my wife's efforts, that found her eventually by trawling through records from the southeast of England and finding a little bit of information about where she was and then about her marriage in the 50s and then about having children, you know, and so on. And eventually that was all kind of traced down, leading to me getting in touch with Julie. Which brings me then to Miriam, because both of you hearing the story, which is fascinating, but I can hear lots of different emotions that are

there, Miriam, you know, particularly some of the anger that Julie has and the sadness and regret, perhaps, that her mother has left her with because there was this whole relationship and part of her life that she didn't share how common is that do you think i mean i i think that there were women all around the world for many many years at least until the 1970s who were put under enormous social pressure to give up babies that were born before marriage or born from inconvenient relationships whether that was abuse or a married person or a person in a position where having a sexual relationship would have not been socially acceptable and you know I think that for those women it can be an enormous trauma to have been forced to give up a baby to have had

all of that pressure piled onto them and it's really hard for people now to think back about how strong that pressure would have been but I guess my reference point is just thinking about you know how difficult it is to talk up about other things that are associated with stigma so you know statistics say for example that terminations of pregnancy are very common and yet people rarely talk about them you know again sexual abuse very common people rarely talk about it because when there's big stigma that social pressure can make you feel that your whole identity your whole value as a woman would be shamed and gone and people would think of you differently as spoilt or unworthy or it could ruin a future potential for marriage or a relationship if anybody knew and I think

that's an enormous burden and what that does is it means people have to hold that trauma without sharing it and without getting support for it so it may have been incredibly painful to go through all the milestones of bringing up other children yes you know the echoes of loss I understand and so you're saying what what may have been of course we don't know what was in Julian Tom's uh Tom's biological biological mother's mind as she went through those years without mentioning him. But we are seeing, Miriam, the aftershocks of that decision. And with Tom and Julie, it's positive, I think, what I'm hearing so far with their meeting and whatnot, but something that's happening in later life. And I'm wondering how people can be prepared for what might happen. You know, Tom says he knew he was opening a can, but wasn't sure what sort of can it was going to be.

I mean, Tom's story is different. I have an identity thing. You mentioned the word identity, Miriam. I have an identity thing, and it came about in my 50s when I sent off to Register House in Edinburgh for a full extract of my birth certificate. Prior to that, I only had a short extract which showed my adoptive name from my adoptive parents, who gave me a good life, by the way. But my full extract for the first time,

and I was not prepared for this, gave me my birth mother's name, obviously, in full, where I was born, which I knew, and told me my birth identity, that my mother had identified me as a person. I was a shilpit wee five-pound premature baby, and she gave me a name, and in accordance with the law, she registered me.

And I did not know that in my 50s, and I found it, I was quite with rage don't know why but I was quite with rage at finding out about that identity which naively perhaps I had not worked out so let me throw that back to Miriam you know that's one of the issues that Tamha that that that came up but I'm sure there are so many more. For example, your birth family not wanting you to be quite frank.

Sorry, Tom, I'll just throw that to Miriam for a moment because just for other listeners, if in fact this might be something that they are contemplating. I mean, adoption has become over time much more open about the background stories of the children so that they have a better story to take into their life and a bit more

awareness of why they came to be adopted. And actually, more and more people are given photographs and stories and even the opportunity to meet or, you know, have contact arrangements with birth family members. something about the conflict in feelings between being loyal to what sounds like a loving adoptive family and feeling like you also have curiosity about where you came from in your biological, your birth family, and trying to find out your identity and your story and make sense of that. And it sounds like the advantage that Tom had over Julie was that he knew he was adopted and actually therefore knew that there was some kind of story that was unknown to him. Whereas Julie, there was sort of something going on with mum that didn't quite make sense, but she didn't know that there was an untold part of her story and her identity. And so

there are kind of different feelings to process and you know I think it's it's really natural to feel deprived of that and angry at the person that deprived you of that but I think it's also a very complicated picture because you know from each person's point of view there's there's different elements to the story that are unknown. And, you know, it takes a lot of processing for whoever's involved, doesn't it? I want to thank Julie. I want to thank Tom for processing some of it with our listeners and kind of showing us the workings of it. I know every story when it comes to discovering a family member is completely different, but it does raise some of the same emotions, perhaps, and complexities.

I want to thank Miriam Silver, consultant clinical psychologist as well. And of course, Julie, for getting in touch with Women's Hour on Listener Week. Lots of you getting in touch with advice from your kids. Trish, my sons are always telling me to try new things. Stop being fearful. It's odd taking advice from your children. 84844. Do get in touch. Stop being fearful. It's odd taking advice from your children. 8-4-8-4-4. Do get in touch.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I

unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. That's right. We often talk about strong women on this programme.

Resilient, forceful, brave women. But today, another version of strong women. There's one in particular who could lift a grown man with one hand above her head. That was Victorian strong woman Kate Williams. She was known for her breathtaking beauty, her jaw-dropping feats of strength, and she travelled around the world under the stage name Vulcanna.

Now, listener Eric suggested this story to us and he asked that we speak to author Rebecca F. John, whose historical novel Vulcanna fictionalises her life. So who was she? And how did she become a strong woman in Victorian England? Rebecca is with us. Hello, Rebecca. Good morning.

Good morning. Thank you for having me. We also have with us Sam Taylor, a modern day Welsh strong woman. She was Britain's strongest woman in 2020, world's third strongest woman in 2021. So could probably lift quite a few people herself. Would that be right, Sam? Yeah, probably. Not this morning, though. Would that be right, Sam? Yeah, probably.

Not this morning, though. We're not going to ask you to do that, but welcome to you as well. Rebecca, let me start with Vulcana. Tell me a little bit about her life and how she became a strong woman at those times. Yeah, so Vulcana's life was stranger than fiction, most definitely, I think.

She was the daughter of a Baptist minister born in Abergavenny. And growing up in Abergavenny, started to train and do weight training at the local gymnasium. And she was born in the 1870s. And by the 1890s, she has run away from home and has gone off to London. And she is performing on the music hall stages as a strong woman. And that's just the beginning, really, of a long career and quite a wild life for Vulcana or Kate Williams, as she was called. I mentioned the putting a grown man over her head with one hand. Tell me about

a few more of the feats. And I know some of them you're wondering, are they completely true or not? I mean, I suppose the first thing to say is the feats that she was sort of known for comparatively to what someone like Sam does are very,

very mild indeed. You know, she was lifting her partner Atlas over her head. But it's documented, you know, that he was a 12 stone man. So, you know, he wasn't an enormous man. But by the standards of the day, she was extremely strong and she won many medals for her strong, strong, for her power lifting if you like but it was very performative as well so it was a musical um piece of entertainment so there would you know be challenges to the audience and she would lift a certain weight and then

uh challenge people to come and lift that same weight and see if they could do that and there would be a five pound reward you know things like that. But there are all sorts of accounts of having, you know, horses brought onto stage and they would be walked over a plank that was on top of Volcana and those sorts of things. Very performative. But her private life was unusual, perhaps for the times as well. So she lived with Atlas and his wife. They pretend... Yeah, go ahead. No, go on, Cally. Well, my understanding is, and you

correct me because you've written the book, but his wife looked after all their children while they toured. And Atlas and Vulcana pretended to be brother and sister on their tours while they were actually a couple or a throuple, if we want to include Atlas atlas's original

wife yes um yes i mean it was a very modern setup um atlas was about a decade older than than vulcana um he they did become lovers at some point and they had either four or six children together depending on different accounts he also had a number of children with his wife Alice and yet the family stories go that Alice was looking after all of the children while while Kate and William were touring and yet they they were advertised as a brother and sister strong woman act and that was was a ruse that was actually in place after both of their deaths, until after their deaths. So they would live together.

You know, they're listed on the censuses as brother and sister. And they had an invented past that they would give to the press, you know, about how he would train her when she was a small girl and those kinds of things. I have to turn to Sam. Sam, do you feel a connection with Vulcanna? You're both Welsh both strong women. Yeah definitely and we're both from Abercrombie as well so I was born in Abercrombie which when I started researching the history of strong women I was quite excited about so, I definitely feel a connection. And I see behind you the world's strongest couple because you compete with your wife, Sue. And I watched this wonderful documentary on both of you.

And you are seriously strong, just to put it in context for our listeners. I was watching as you pulled an A320 aircraft 20 metres, which weighed 48 tonnes, and you did that with Sue. I mean, that's mind-blowing. What do you love about being this strong? I think it just sort of, you know, goes against... I mean, I don't conform to anything that probably a woman should conform to. So I think it's just, you know, it's just that going against the grain.

But also sort of showing that, you know, strength doesn't know gender. You know, we're just strong. It doesn't matter what gender we are. How did you get into the sport? Completely by accident. I'd had a bit of a breakdown mental health wise and I was going to the gym and somebody just sort of said to me, I should try strength sports. So I sort of gave it a go. Yeah, sort of taking it to the extreme now.

Not doing anything by half measures. But let me turn back to you, Rebecca, and with Vulcana. You know, I was reading, I didn't know this previously, that gyms were a big thing in Victorian England and that she was also a pioneer in the sense of getting women to ditch their corsets and try and work out, be strong. Yes, it was a surprise to me as well, actually, that women were training in gymnasiums at that time in history. I think it's not something that is commonly known. And yes, she was hugely vocal about the idea of taking off corsets, about the fact that you couldn't breathe fully if you were wearing them,

that they were making you weak. And every time she was able really in magazine interviews or newspaper interviews she would talk about encouraging women to just just to be physically active in any way not necessarily to um to lift the kind of weights that she was lifting but just to to use their bodies and make their bodies strong and um you know i i probably only know part of the reception she had to that line. And it probably wasn't pleasant a lot of the time, but she was, she remained vocal about that through her whole career, which was a long career.

What about now, Sam? You know, I do see the hashtag Girls Who Lift. It has over 32 million users on Instagram, 13 billion views on TikTok. Do you feel that the tide has turned and that it's something that is gaining in popularity from your years in it? Definitely, yeah. When I started, it felt like there was a handful of us doing it. And now there are literally hundreds of us around the world. Europe's Strongest Woman was just held just over a week ago. There was about 50 women athletes competing in that. So, yeah, it's massive.

You know what I was wondering, though? When I watched your documentary, I was hearing that there's not huge prize money. And I wondered why, as a kid, it was one of my favourite things to watch. It was Jeff Capes at that time, you know, and Strongest Man. I know I would have definitely been into Strongest Woman if I had seen it at the time. Is that going to change? Yeah, it's changing. We are a long way behind the men, but it is changing. There is a prize money available.

We've got a long way to go. But, you know, how I explain to people is, you know, things don't change overnight and there's got to be people, you know, at the forefront sort of pushing for that change. And when you say about the connection, you know, with Volcana,

that's where I see myself, you know. No, I'm never going to win the same prize money as men, but I'm going to be one of those people who sort of, you know, pushing that tide of change. OK, thank you very much sam rebecca evil canna was forgotten in history but you are bringing her back that's

rebecca f john and sam taylor thanks so much to both of them lots of you getting in touch advice from my then two-year-old son when i was too busy with domestic chores to play, he'd say, don't you know you should do those things that are boring at night when I'm asleep? Some advice coming in, 84844. Now, Listener Week. It isn't just about the topics you want to hear discussed, although I have to say I'm loving all that you've put forward so far. It is also a chance for you to share your own personal stories. And my next guest wrote in to do just that.

Francesca Muratti is a successful 28-year-old businesswoman, also this year's Miss Central London. But there's a lot more to this beauty queen. Despite all the glamour of her life nowadays, Francesca's childhood was very different. When she was just four, her family fled war-torn Kosovo by being smuggled in the back of a lorry, eventually landing in Dover.

They settled then in Bermondsey in London. And she joins me now. Francesca, I see you there with your sash on and your tiara. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. Such a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me. This is quite the story. I mentioned you were four at the time when you made that journey across. What do you remember from that time? So of course I was very young so at that age you know you can't quite I think comprehend your thoughts or you know what you're seeing or understand what's going on and of course my

parents didn't didn't exactly tell us what was happening what was going on so you know at that age you're very unaware of exactly what's happening so I remember being in the back of the lorry with you know you know other families other children and just thinking to myself you know what's what's going on there were people crying it was really hot um and it just yeah I just remember it wasn't a very, very pleasant, you know, situation. And I remember the entire time my mum just, you know, kind of be quiet, don't make any noise. You have to be quiet. And you're putting your finger to your lips there as I speak to you. Yeah.

You're dealing with a four-year-old, you know, how do you explain to a four-year-old that you're being smuggled in the back of a lorry, you know? So they have to be quiet. So I think she almost made it a bit of a game. year old that you're being smuggled in the back of the lorry you know so they have to be quiet so I think she almost made it a bit of a game you know she's like she's got to be quiet let's not make any noise um so yeah I have that distinct memory that I don't think I'll ever forget my mum just like trying really really hard to just kind of calm a four-year-old and I was with my sister as well who was seven um, yeah, I really remember that.

And I remember that there was a part of the journey that we were on a dinghy boat as well. And I remember my mum kind of grabbing me one side, my sister other side, and then my dad kind of behind us. And just thinking to myself, you know, what's going on? This is really scary. You know, I could fall in any moment and of course I didn't know how to swim so you know I just remember thinking this gosh this is really scary. And your experiences when you first landed in the UK do you remember that? So I remember the the initial moment we landed in the UK was actually really positive. The kind of police officers and the people that greeted us

when we arrived was amazing. It was just, I remember it, you know, that the police officers trying to play with the kids and just being really understanding, really caring, you know, giving us blankets, making sure that we're okay. And it was quite nice in that moment to kind of feel that, okay, I'm safe and I'm in a safe place. You were, as I mentioned, a refugee fleeing the war, which was in Kosovo at that time.

But you will have seen the debate over migration at the moment in the UK, particularly over small boats crossing the Channel. At the Home Office figures, they say more than 100,000 migrants have made the journey in the past five years. The government says it has introduced the illegal migration bill so that people arriving in the UK illegally are detained and removed to their country of origin or a safe third country. And there's still debate over whether that could be Rwanda. The government believes these measures will act as a deterrent and they say the figures are too high and the asylum system is under extreme pressure. Given the intensity of this debate, how do you feel about saying you were a refugee? I mean, of course,

I completely understand the political aspect. I think there's two different parts of it. I think there's the political side of it that, of course, we have to understand that they're a government and they have obligation to their country and their people and to are coming to the

uk because there is just this kind of like migration thing that they want to come to the uk because they think it's you know great and they come for a better life amongst that and i i'd imagine it's quite a small minority of people that actually do that there are a huge you know there's a huge amount of people that actually do it because because they have to and it's not that they sit there for years and years and plan that they want to go to the UK. And the UK is their ideal place to go. And that's their destination. You know, in respects to my family, it was kind of leave in the middle of the night or die.

And where you end up, nobody knew. It wasn't like the UK was the destination to go. It was we need to leave now to get you out and be safe. You know, this family with small children, wherever the lorry was going is where it was going. And, but what do you say to people about being a refugee? Well, actually, this is probably the first time in my life I've ever spoken about it, because growing up, I was quite ashamed of it. I was, i kind of felt that it was very un-british to be an immigrant and

i needed to try as hard as possible to be british so you can obviously fit in obviously you're a teenager you know telling another 16 year old that you're a refugee that's come to the uk on a boat isn't exactly going to make you popular or make people like you know they're going to think you're weird so i tried very very hard not to tell people about that. So now is actually the first time in my life I've ever opened up and spoken about it. So a lot of people that know me, it's the first time they've ever realized that I'm actually a refugee. Because when they meet me, I'm not the typical person that you would think is a refugee. So a lot of people assume I was born in the UK.

I was born in London. And when they find out that I'm a refugee, they're almost taken aback by it. And they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, yeah, yeah. I came, you know, from Lorry to Dingybo on the UK. And they just can't quite comprehend it because they're like, well, you know, I've had people tell me, oh, but you don't look like a refugee. What does a refugee look like? Don't sound like a refugee. What does a refugee sound like? You know, I think we've had this conversation circulating for such a long time that people have really become detached from what a refugee actually is. And they've forgotten that they're people that are suffering, people that are coming from war, people are coming from places where they're being killed, murdered,

raped, you know, all kinds of terrible things are happening in the countries where they're being killed, murdered, raped, you know, all kinds of terrible things are happening in the countries where they're coming from. Famine, lack of medication, whatever it is that's causing them to leave. They are, you know, a lot of the cases, they're horrific circumstances that they're leaving from. And the only thing that they want to do when they come to the UK is to be safe. That's literally all they want. That's what we want. And of course, that will be some of the people coming. There will be others that are economic migrants, a host of different reasons. And the government would put forward, Suella Braverman perhaps in particular,

a feeling that there were people entering the country that she felt should not. She talks about criminal elements as well, but that is your take and I understand it. I want to get to your role as Miss Central London. I know you were bullied really badly in high school. What made you want to go to the Miss London pageant? And I do want to let people know as well that you've just had a baby.

Congratulations. But it might be an unusual time some might think to enter that pageant it shouldn't be but it's often for people before they've had children we've talked about that debate of course with pageants as well well if you hear any strange noises in the background that's him you know making noise um to be honest i've always really liked pageants I've always seen women entering pageants as just being these beautiful glamorous empowered women um and I just always you know really looked up to them and thought how amazing that you know they're they're showing off what it is to be a

woman everything that it is you know the essence of a woman is what's embodied in these pageant women and you know you know after all this time of, you know, being really fascinated in this, after I had my son, I just thought, you know, I sat down and I thought to myself, why am I not an empowered woman? Of course I am. I have been through this massive thing in my life, coming to the UK as a refugee. I'm a mother, I'm a successful woman, I'm an entrepreneur.

I have, you know, what do woman I'm an entrepreneur I have you know what what do I not have that these women have absolutely nothing so why shouldn't I and I just thought let's enter the competition it'll be you know at the end of the day it could just be a little bit of a little bit of fun it'll be nice to meet some you know new friends new women um I was the only mother competing in this central London so and you know I was a new mother competing in Miss Central London. So, you know, I was a new mother. My son was only a few months old. So I wasn't feeling in my tip top, you know, self. I was, you know, exhausted.

My son hadn't slept all night, working all week. So I kind of thought this will be fun. Let's go. And when I entered, honestly, it was probably the funnest day I've ever had. It was so great. The women were so inspirational. They were doctors. They were, you know, women had been working with people that had mental health problems,

child psychologists, you know, really, really successful women that were entering this competition. And to win the competition for me was just, you know, beyond anything I ever expected. Well, I want to congratulate you on Miss Central London and thank you for putting the sash on and the tiara for Women's Hour this morning.

We really appreciated Francesca Moratti. Thanks for adding to Listener Week. Now, something I want to turn to is eating alone. This is from another listener. Whether that's taking yourself out to a restaurant, maybe grabbing a meal while you're on a solo trip or cooking for yourself at home.

And despite how common eating out alone is, or eating alone, I should say, which is different, ONS said almost one in three households in the UK are people living alone, right? So there's people eating alone there as well. So how do we get over the stigma that can be attached to it? Well, we have Julia Georgalis, who is a Woman's Hour listener, who wrote to us suggesting the topic, has a podcast called How to Eat Alone. And we also have the food writer and author Claire Finney, whose latest book is

Hungry Heart and diving into how food and love go hand in hand. Claire, you wrote an article for The Guardian a couple of years ago called The Joy of Eating Out. How can people see it as joy? Why do you think there's still a stigma? I think ever since, well not since time began, but food has been a communal activity for such a long time, born out of necessity, really. From the very first time we could slay mammals bigger than ourselves and bigger than our own appetites could stomach, we would have to share food. And, you know, building fires necessitated sharing food. And then, as a result, almost all our kind of traditions

and our communal activities and the point of the day when we come together center around eating and drinking so it does seem so odd I think for um for that kind of connection to be broken and and I think that you know obviously that's been born of necessity as well you know more and more people are on their own um through choice or through circumstance. And I think there is a way to celebrate that. I think it is increasingly being celebrated through kind of, I was thinking about the shift from Bridget Jones to Samantha Jones.

You know, Bridget Jones is eating dry muesli and shots of vodka by herself. Samantha Jones is absolutely celebrating being an independent woman dining alone. I think it's more leaning into food as a means of connecting with oneself. Food is a means of kind of taking a pause in the day. My friend Rosie talks about letting the pace of a meal dictate her thoughts and says that whilst dining out is obviously great fun with friends, sometimes you're having so much fun with friends, it detracts from the food itself. And there's immense pleasure to be had by just going to a restaurant, choosing exactly what you want. If you want cheese for starter, main course and dessert, you can do that.

And nobody will contradict you. Let me turn to you, Julia, and thank you for suggesting this topic. But let's talk about eating alone at home. I think a lot of us could be guilty of, you know, something on toast or that bowl of muesli that Bridget Jones had, as Claire was mentioning. How can you make it something a bit more special, even if you are cooking for one? Yeah, I mean, I mean, there's nothing wrong with something on toast, right? But I think it is really about pace, really, as Claire was suggesting. I think one tip that I really love that a guest on my podcast suggested was to set the table for yourself. I think I'm quite guilty sometimes of just kind of eating,

standing up, eating, sitting on the floor. You know, like it's kind of like nice to actually treat yourself as you would someone that you might be cooking for. So if we cook for other people, you know, we put a lot of time and thought into what we're cooking and how we lay a table. And I think that that is quite an important thing thing to kind of treat ourselves as we treat others. So do you do that? Will you spend a long time on a meal for yourself? Do you have a go to recipe?

I mean, I've got quite a lot. I'm not really the kind of person who does, who likes cooking the same thing every day. But I, it really depends on time, I think, right? Like I have my meals that I know I'll enjoy you know in 10 in 10-15 minutes I um my last episode actually spoke a lot about my guests spoke a lot about being really extra and making yourself something like a chicken cutlet you know just for yourself and and how kind of satisfying that is to spend the time, you know, doing that for yourself. OK, so we're kind of getting to some of the tips for our listeners about eating alone.

I did have a guest on previously who said, you know, put in Shantae Joseph, who said, you know, she puts in her earbuds and when she's out for a meal by herself and instead of trying to read a book. You've mentioned giving time there, Julia, when you're in the house as a tip for cooking for yourself and setting the table. Claire, give us a tip of eating out alone. What would you suggest? I would suggest choosing somewhere with a counter dining situation where you can see the chef prepare the food. Then you get dinner and a show. I think also it's really interesting. We think about eating alone and we think about being solitary and a show. I think also it's really interesting. We think about eating alone. We think about being solitary and being lonely.

But actually eating alone can mean that you engage with all sorts of people because you're engaging more with the staff. They engage more with you. A lot of chefs I interviewed for Hungry Heart for the book would say that they kind of really enjoy solo diners because they get a lot out of it. So kind of engaging with the menu, engaging with the staff, asking more questions, putting your phone away. It's really tempting to get out as a safety crutch. But actually, people who I think also remembering that other diners aren't looking at you thinking what a loser they are thinking, oh, my God, I wish it was that cool. I could have ordered oysters for starter, main and dessert. Let me turn back to you, Julia, though,

because when I think of cookbooks and recipes, it's always for, I mean, yes, I will generally cook for four if there's only two of us. But what about the solo diner? People weren't really being catered for, right? Just in our last minute. Yeah, absolutely. I think recipes are very often written

for two or more people in mind um so i really try with every episode to offer a recipe that makes exactly enough for one person because it's true i think we just we kind of ignore the the the solo chef um and you know cookbooks do the same thing they kind of ignore the fact that people are increasingly cooking for themselves, just for one person. Go-to recipe, real quick? Oh, I really like onion, garlic and tinned anchovy pasta. It takes about 10 minutes to make. You usually have everything in your store cupboard.

Got it. If you've ever heard of a store cupboard, it's brilliant. We'll try that one. Julia Georgialis wrote to us suggesting the topic. Thanks to her. And we also had Claire Finney. Thanks for all your messages coming in 84844 as we continue Listener Week tomorrow.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I want you to hold something for me. Hold something. The missing Korean telecommunications tycoon was found dead this morning. A guy you've never seen before offers you 10 grand to look after an envelope and you take it. Tell nobody. Not even your girlfriend, okay?

There's something I need to tell you. It'll save a lot of lives if you help us. This is all a terrible mistake. We just want to go home. We don't want to... Shut up! Available now on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there

who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.