Woman's Hour - Listener Week: Van life, Surrogacy, Women and stonemasonary

Episode Date: August 19, 2024

Welcome to Woman's Hour's Listener Week, when all the topics, interviews and discussions are chosen by YOU!On today's programme, we hear from listener Siobhan Daniels. She wrote to us on Instagram: 'I would love you to talk about van life and an alternative way of living.' Siobhan is 65 years old and after selling her home and possessions has lived in her motorhome for five years. She joins Nuala McGovern on the programme. A message from a listener raised his concerns about the amount of time it had taken for his daughter’s case to get to trial after she was sexually assaulted. He asked Woman’s Hour to speak to the Crown Prosecution Service about why these delays occur. The CPS were unavilable for an interview and have sent us a statement. To discuss this topic we are joined live by Rape Crisis CEO, Ciara Bergman and barrister and author, Harriet Johnson.What’s it like being a cathedral stonemason? After a listener asked to hear more about women working in heritage crafts, reporter Martha Owen went to meet Rachael Wragg, a stonemason at Lincoln Cathedral. Also known as @thegingermason on social media, Rachael tells us about working the stone, why she decided to retrain as a mason, and why she loves her job.For some surrogacy is extremely contentious, for others it's life changing. Our listener Helen Trenchard wanted to speak about her experience of having a baby by surrogate. It is legal in the UK although it is an offence to advertise that you are seeking a surrogate or are a potential surrogate looking for "intendend parents”. Nuala explores the topic with Helen and Rena Miras-Pye who carried Helen's baby. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour and to Listener Week. Thank you for all the ideas you have submitted to make this week's programmes. Today's discussions have been generated by you. So maybe Woman's Hour will sound a little bit different this week but your ideas include

packing up and deciding to live in a van. One listener, Siobhan, has done just that. We're going to hear how it's working out and it also got us to thinking about what a dream retirement might look like for you and whether that's a long way off or if it's just

around the corner I want to hear your thoughts. Maybe it is staying out late every night with no alarm in the morning. Maybe it's taking a massive road trip. What about owning your own pottery studio or backpacking in Bangladesh? These are just some from the Woman's Hour team so I want to hear yours. You can text the programme that number 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour team. So I want to hear yours. You can text the programme, that number 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website and for WhatsApp, for messages or voice notes. That number is 03700100444.

Your dream retirement. I'm all ears. Also today, we're going to talk about surrogacy in the UK and delays for justice in rape and sexual assault cases plus women in heritage crafts stonemasonry to be exact we'll climb the scaffolding of Lincoln Cathedral together that is all coming up in the next hour but let us get to my first guest for listener week it is Siobhan Daniels Siobhan got in touch with us on Instagram about her alternative way of living because five years ago, Siobhan sold her home and most of her possessions to do something that maybe this will appeal to you.

She decided to live in a van, a motorhome to be exact, at the age of 60 and has been travelling around the UK for the past five years. And she joins me now. And as I look at her on one of the screens here, it looks like she is indeed in the van. Siobhan, it looks pretty cosy. It is. It's very cosy. Good morning to you. I'm in Dora the Explorer. I'm just having a cup of coffee and looking forward to chatting to you.

Well, if people want to see your van, indeed, they'll be able to see it on our social media at BBC Woman's Hour on Instagram and also on Twitter. But why did you decide that you wanted to live in that confined space? Well, basically, I got to a stage in my life, sort of mid-50s approaching 60, where I felt really broken. I'd had a brother and sister who'd both died of lung cancer. I was struggling with the menopause. I'd had precancerous cells and had to have a hysterectomy. I call it my hysterical ectomy because I've never been the same since I had it. But I had a hysterectomy. I call it my hysterical ectomy because I've never been the same since I had it. But I had a hysterectomy and I was struggling at work.

I felt marginalised and voiceless, something that I know a lot of women when they get to my age, sort of approaching 60 feel. And so I just, one day I had an incident at work and I remember going into the toilet and just looking in the mirror and sobbing to myself, thinking, I want to stop pretending. I want to find me. I want to find my happy place. I know it sounds melodramatic, but that's genuinely how I felt. And so then I just started trying to figure out a way of doing it. And eventually I came up with the idea of a motorhome. But where did that come from and what we do?

I don't know. Scrolling used cars and went, oh and went oh you know what I'm gonna live in a van no I really don't know I had all these ideas in my head and motorhome wasn't there and I literally woke up one morning and I thought motorhome and it was like a eureka moment and I'd never holidayed in one never driven one hadn't got a clue but I remember going into work and saying to everybody that's it I'm going to get rid of my home my possessions I'm going to buy a motorhome I'm going to hit the road and find my happy place. And that is a big leap though because at first I would have thought that you would have kept flat or wherever you were living rent that out and then maybe do your thing in the van but why did you feel you needed to go the whole hog? I think also I felt in society we were working long hours to earn lots of money,

to clutter our lives, fill our lives with stuff. I had my flat was full of beautiful things and on the surface it looked great. But I was so, so unhappy and just really going through the motions, just existing to pay bills for all this stuff. So I kind of thought with my crazy mind, if I get rid of it all and I'm not worried about spending on all this rubbish, then I can focus on finding my happy place. And that's what I've done. And I've realized after five years, I really don't need much. So how did that feel, though, selling up or whatever way it was that you donated like when

the house is gone the clothing is gone the possessions? It was it was a bit of sort of hysteria at the beginning I thought it was all absolutely hilarious giving my friends my possessions and they'd come around for dinner and I'll say you can take this you can take that but when the reality hit in, it was scary. And my family and friends hadn't a clue really what I was doing. And I remember turning the key in the ignition in the motorhome in 2019, sort of giggling and crying at the same time, thinking, what the heck are you doing?

Where are you going? And I genuinely didn't know, but I somehow had this innate belief that it was going to work out and I was going to find my happy place and I have, you know, I've never felt happier. And we'll get into the not knowing how to drive one, for example, and everything that comes with it in a moment.

But can you describe the van? The part I'm looking at, you have a window, obviously, I think a little kitchen maybe behind you, some cosy cushions. Oh, you've just turned the camera around for me why don't you describe fully what you see well I've got microwave fridge freezer my gin bar just there the all-important gin bar I've got a kitchen an oven at the back grill through the door there there's a shower full- size shower and toilet. And then I've got two bench seats, which I turn into, I don't want to show my rubbish,

that turn into beds, single beds, or they come right across. And I've got two seats at the front, which swivel around like armchairs. Which are the driving seat, driving and passenger seats. So, I mean, fairly comfortable by the looks of it. And as I mentioned, people can check it out on the Women's Hour socials. But, you know, immediately I began thinking of let's take it from brass tacks. You get in, you've put the key in the ignition. Where are you going and how are you figuring out how to manoeuvre that motorhome if it's something you haven't driven before?

Well, the dealers were brilliant. When I first bought the motorhome, they knew, they could tell I hadn't got a clue what I was doing. And they paid for me to stay on a motorhome site for a night to get to grips with various things. And I did cheat a little bit. I did get someone to fill the tank for me. And I used my watering can and my bucket to fill the tank for months, for ages. People used

to move their chairs and watch me as if to say, what on earth is that woman doing? But then someone took pity on me and showed me what to do. And driving it, I got terrified. But my brother, Paddy, had had a motorhome. So I was forever ringing him up going, I can't do it. I don't know what to do. And he'd be going, motorhome helpline and giving me tips. And eventually I just thought, go my own speed, calm down if there's people behind me. And I've got to grips with driving it now and I absolutely love it. And, you know, you're five years in. I mean, you're kind of a veteran van woman now.

I am and I know I'm inspiring loads of other women I've been taken on by the Caravan and Motorhome Club as an ambassador to encourage older women to have the van life and to to you know experience the adventures in later life and it's incredible I literally get hundreds of messages from women saying that I've reignited that spark for their 60s in their retirement and that's what I want to do I wrote a book called Retirement Rebel, and it's resonating with so many women to get them to enjoy their own life. So let's talk about it. I did 84844 if somebody wants to get in touch with their dream retirement. This is obviously yours.

But let's talk about the good, the bad and the ugly. Okay, the good. What's the upside? I imagine it's that freedom. It's being mistress of your own destiny. And I, through this, I found my voice and my inner warrior. And I'm more courageous about exploring places. So I'll go to parts of the country that I really don't know.

I went up to the Outer Hebrides at the end of last year and spent five weeks just going from island to island. And it was just heaven. And I went to Ireland itself and traveled around Southern Ireland for five weeks and spoke to the locals and found places. So I found my courage and I found my sense of adventure

and I found me. I really, really, I'm living. When I was before with all the trappings, I was existing. I wasn't living like many of us do. Now I literally stop and I have my cup of coffee and I sit on the doorstep of the motorhome and I listen to the birds and I feel the wind on my face. Things my mum used to say to me and I'd roll my eyes thinking, oh, for goodness sake. But I'm doing it now and I feel the benefits of it.

I go and walk in bare feet on the grass. So let's talk about the bat. I mean, immediately I'm thinking something you mentioned there, maybe the motorhome place. I was thinking, OK, how do you ensure your safety wherever you go? You are a woman travelling by yourself, possibly to places that there mightn't be many other people around. I don't know. You tell me.

Yeah, I take all the precautions that you would do when I lived in the flat on my own. I've got an alarm on the motorhome. I've got locks that I put on the pedals, metal locks. I've got locks on the wheels. I get the seatbelt, wrap it around the door and then put it in around the seat. And that stops it opening. I wedge things up against the door.

I stay on a lot of certificated location sites from the Caravan and Motorhome Club which only take five vehicles they're not the big sites but they're in lovely remote places and farms and fields but I feel secure staying on those for me staying wild camping is one step too far I've done it in Scotland because it's geared up for, especially on places like Harris in the Outer Hebrides, you just text the council and you can stay in the most beautiful places. But I listen to that little voice. My first thing I give talks about safety as a solo female traveller. And one of the things I say is, first of all, listen to that voice. Listen to your gut instinct.

If it doesn't feel safe, if it doesn't look good then move on which is what i did with the flat you know my windows if i was going out that little boy said shut your windows lock your door do this so it's the same thing i'm just playing doll's house every day does it still feel like that it does honestly i it's i'm so giddy i love it so we did the good the bad okay let's get to the ugly um What about, I think I was reading about, as you were learning the various aspects of van life, you have to do quite a bit for yourself. Some of it may be not so pleasant.

Yeah, the emptying the toilet. In fact, I put on my TikTok emptying the toilet and I've got 50 odd thousand people who viewed it. There's all sorts out there. But yeah, emptying the toilet filling the water and washing it I couldn't wash the roof um and I actually took it for the first time in five years to a place to get the roof washed and I got told off by the guys yesterday because there was mold and all sorts growing on the roof so other than that though there are not

a lot of negatives it keeps me fit you know I'd say you'd have to be pretty fit and healthy though wouldn't you to have the lifestyle you're having it keeps you fit I mean I wasn't particularly fit when I started out but it keeps me fit I've got a dodgy knee I'm 65 my knees are saying what are you doing so I just keep pushing it and I and it definitely keeps me fit okay lots of messages coming in for you you're ready for them Siobhan okay I am I'm ready okay how wonderful to listen to the wonderful lady talking about her fabulous motorhome and the adventures she has hodred it could she tell us how she manages with paperwork etc when she needs a postal address

yeah my sister-in-law kindly lets me use her address. So all my official bank accounts, insurance, things like that, go through that address. And I've given her permission to open my post. So she takes photographs of it and then sends it to me. And occasionally I get a phone call with a, hello, Siobhan. And I think, oh, I've got a fine for something. And she breaks the news to me gently.

Speeding in your motorhome. No, no, no, not speeding. Stay tuned. I'm totally joking. Okay, let me see. Another one here from Josie in Devon. A couple of years ago I sold my 1994 motorhome

wrongly and stereotypically thinking some guy would buy it as a mechanical project. Within five minutes of posting the ad I had over 20 women all of a certain age

interested in buying it. I don't know what it is but we are strongly attracted to the freedom and simplicity of buying it. I don't know what it is, but we are strongly attracted to the freedom and simplicity of van life. I'm setting off to Scotland and mine in September for three months and I can't wait. Oh, do you know, that's made me go goosebumps. It's so true. There's an awful lot of women now, particularly in their late 50s and 60s, wanting to repurpose their lives, thinking the kids are grown up you know they're having a difficult time at work they're approaching retirement and they're just thinking what's it all

about and repurposing their lives and thinking I want to focus on me what do I really like and so they're hitting the road in the vans and meeting up groups of us together not not everybody's full time but there's a great group called these girls van by a girl holly she's in her 30s and she's she gets women together and just they can be married and they want a bit of time away from their husband or whatever they just want a women's get together and they invited me to go along and there were 42 vans and all these women and we had a ball we went for walks we had afternoon tea and we had a good natter about things and put the world to rights a question for the lady in the van that's you Siobhan does she worry about when

the van will eventually wear out what happens then does she have enough money to buy another one somebody worried about your financial future yeah well this is the thing I don't limit myself with what ifs and my brain's not wired like that and I'm living my life I do all the sensible things I get it serviced I get my I've just had my cam belt replaced after so many thousand miles and I just look after it and hopefully it'll go on for as long as I go on it doesn't necessarily have to fall to bits if you look after it what do you miss about the non-van life? Initially, I used to answer that question with, I miss a bath, or as my daughter would say, a bath. But I miss a bath, just soaking in it. That was always my place I went to when I felt really uptight. But more recently, because I've been

invited to a lot of events with women like this camping thing or Nordic walking or swimming, and I see these bunch of women together and their interaction. And you think they've supported each other through things like mastectomies or death of children or, you know, trouble at work. And you see the camaraderie in the sport. And I think, do you know what? I miss my bunch of girlfriends that I used to be able to just, you know, go around to theirs with a bottle of wine and sit down and have a good chat or go out on a night out or go for long walks together. So I miss my bunch of girlfriends. I do see them.

They can come to train stations near where I am. I pick them up. We travel for a few days and then I drop them back again. So I do get to see them. But I miss that, you know, being able to call on them 24 hours and just hang out with them. A couple more just before I let you go. People talking about retirement, really how to prepare emotionally, physically. And what about purpose and identity in retirement?

I'm struggling with both, says one listener. Can you prepare or do you think you just have to wait for the eureka moment like you had? I think a lot of people when they think they're preparing what they're doing is saying to themselves right i can't do this and i might run out of money and i might do this and i might do that and they they they limit themselves so much i say when you retire you refire it's refiring your life you can go out there and revisit things that you liked when you were younger. So I think I'm trying to encourage younger women not even to fear getting old, to look forward to retirement.

We've got this negative stereotype of what it is to age. And actually, there's an awful lot of us aging completely differently. Where are you off to now? Where am I off to? In fact, I'm heading into London because I'm going to be on national television tomorrow. I'm going to be on this morning. Tomorrow I've got to drive my motorhome into a studio. I'll be keeping an eye out for Dora the Explorer in the next 24 hours in London. Siobhan Daniel, thank you so much for starting us off on

Lister Week. It's been lovely to speak to you. I've loved chatting to you and if people want to check me out, I'm on Instagram under Siobhan Siobhan. Exactly. And also they can check out Siobhan on the BBC

Woman's Hour social media as well. Lots of you get in touch about dream retirement. Here's one from Cathy. She's in Yorkshire. I sold up everything I owned and moved to a small holding.

Now I have a flock of sheep, geese and an orchard and a large vegetable garden but no actual money. I never wear makeup. I'm mostly found in overalls and boots I retired after 50 years working long hours, including taking work home, looking after children and elderly parents and studying in between times. People kept asking me, what am I going to do? And were astonished when I said nothing. including taking work home, looking after children and elderly parents and studying in between times. People kept asking me, what am I going to do? And were astonished when I said nothing. I've been retired for two years and enjoy getting up in the morning knowing I have no commitments. I'm not idle. I have lots of hobbies.

We don't need to do something when we retire. Thanks very much for that message coming in response to me asking, what is your dream retirement? I think that's theirs. 84844 if you would like to get in touch. Now, I want to turn next to a message from a listener who raised his concerns about the amount of time it had taken for his daughter's case to get to trial after she was sexually assaulted. He asked Woman's Hour to speak to the Crown Prosecution Service, or the CPS as they're often known, to understand why. Now, according to the latest National Audit Office report on the Crown Court backlog in England and in Wales, the number of outstanding adult rape cases increased by 346%. So in numbers, that is from 624 to 2,786 cases.

And that's between the end of 2019 and the end of 2023. After being reported to the police, adult rape cases take, on average, two years to complete in court, but many take far longer. And I do want to say that we invited the CPS to come on this programme.

We put the request to them two weeks ago, but they were unable to put anyone up for interview and they have sent us a statement. I will read that a little bit later. I do, however, have two expert guests on hand who can help us look at why the backlog has been created and also consider the plans from the Labour government to create 80 new rape courts to tackle this issue.

I'm joined by the CEO of Rape Crisis England and Wales, Ciara Bergman, and barrister Harriet Johnson, author of Enough, The Violence Against Women and How to End It. Welcome to you both. Hi. Ciara, let me start with you very much at the beginning. If you are a victim of a sexual assault, possibly a rape, and you reported to the police, can you talk me through what should happen next? Well, what should happen next is that there should be an investigation that's focused on establishing what's happened. The police should fully

investigate that and they should do that in a way that protects the dignity and the rights of the person who has reported the crime. And they should present a case, having investigated it, to the CPS, who then make a decision about whether to take it forward and put it into the system. So the role of the CPS there is making that decision? Yeah, the CPS make decisions about charging. So let me turn to you, Harriet. The backlog that we've talked about, that increase, the 346% that I mentioned, what's behind it?

Well, of course, we have to start with the pandemic, which we have to acknowledge had a huge impact. Courts were closed in the short term. And when they reopened, they reopened. It took some time for them to return to what we might think of as normal. But it's important to acknowledge that the figures immediately before and immediately after the backlog showed that the pandemic doubled the backlog, but it absolutely didn't start it. We had significant problems before then, partly starting with austerity and the closure of physical court buildings,

which meant fewer trials being able to be heard in court centres. So that created a delay. You then had a fairly recent analysis that showed that quite a number of cases over recent years have been unable to go ahead because of lack of prosecution counsel. Now, quite properly, you need specialist barristers to prosecute rape cases and cases of serious sexual offences. But poor pay, long work and emotional exhaustion are all reasons why more and more people are pulling away from that work and going to work in different areas where they're properly remunerated and less likely to be quite so traumatised by the work that they're doing. I mean, is there any policies or programmes to try and recruit more people that are specialists in that manner? I have heard this issue previously on the programme of not having enough people.

Well, I mean, it's a twofold problem, really. One is pay and one is the sort of emotional labour. And the Criminal Bar Association has been really good at trying to support barristers more, both prosecution and defence, because when you're exposed to those details, secondary trauma can be a real thing. But pay is something that goes to a much broader issue around funding of the criminal justice system generally. And we saw certainly under the last government, a narrative of claiming that it was fat cat lawyers wanting to line their pockets, whereas actually the reality was a lot of barristers struggling to pay their rent, struggling to make ends meet,

while working 60, 70, sometimes 80 hour weeks to try to keep the wheels of justice turning. So it's funding and it's also emotional support, I think. And let me come back again to you, Ciara. What's the longest amount of time that you've seen someone having to wait for their case to go to court? Yeah. So, I mean, the average is just over two years. But we've heard from a woman who waited over eight years for her case to go to trial. Well, I think there are a lot of different reasons that contribute to the delays. I think Harriet set out some of the issues here are to do with long-term underfunding of the criminal justice system,

which lead to difficulties with recruiting and retaining. But I'm just thinking, sorry, specifically with that eight years that you mentioned, was there any overriding issue that delayed it for so long? The difficulty is that when people enter into the system, it's in chaos. So it isn't simply about delays with listing a case, but it's actually also about poor practices within the system. I'll give you an example. Cases are routinely listed as what we call floater trials when there's been a rape or sexual offence case that's entered into the system

and so what happens there is that the case is not allocated to a particular judge or a particular courtroom and it's not unusual for people who are waiting for their cases to go ahead to find out on the day that they've been rearranged and so that that sort of practice contributes to those sorts of delays. But why would those sort of cases of sexual assault or rape be, how would I say, classified under a floater trial? Like, you would imagine that they would be ones where people needed more security or stability in when cases would be heard. That's absolutely right. Rape and sexual offences are some of the most serious and traumatic crimes. And these delays are absolutely devastating for people who've come forward to report them. And let's not forget that most people never report. So they are completely

devastating. And some of this is to do with not giving those cases the requisite priority that they need. And that's something that we've long called for. Is there a reason, though, why they have been floater cases or floater trials? One of the things that we've highlighted is a lack of proper oversight and accountability within the criminal justice system. So, for example, there's no inspectorate that's looking at some of these practices in order for people to hold the system accountable for the delays, but also to think about actually what needs to change here because it needs a whole system change. And coming back to the CPS, Harriet,

we talked about them making the decision whether to go ahead with a particular case. What are the role or how would you describe the role as that case goes forward? So the CPS and the police are the two sort of strands of the prosecution. As Keira said, any investigation starts with the police. And in the Dream case, you have police investigating. They present a bundle of evidence to the CPS who then immediately charge.

It's a few days before that person is then presented for the Crown Court and not long before you then get a trial date. But what we often have is delays in police investigations. person is then presented for the Crown Court and not long before you then get a trial date. But what we often have is delays in police investigations. So there was a recent case in the Court of Appeal where there was a four and a half year investigation. So four and a half years between the allegation being made, which was made the day after the incident happened, and the person involved being actually charged. In that case, the CPS, and I'm quoting, put the case on the back burner due to other priorities arising out of the pandemic. So what we often have is delays in investigation from police. In that case, it was a year and a half before the police investigated the complainant's phone,

which actually had strong supportive evidence on it. Sometimes the police present a bundle of evidence to the CPS, and they say, we need more information about X, Y and Z, please go back and investigate further. And that can result in delays in charging as well. With the delays, particularly the listener who got in touch, he felt that the delay in his daughter's case helped the defendant. And we can't comment on a specific case. We don't know all the details. But could a delay make a difference to the outcome in cases? I'll begin with you, Harriet. Absolutely. I mean, the thing to remember

about the criminal justice system is it's not like in civil trials where it's a question of which account or which version you prefer. The standard of proof in criminal trials is that a jury has to be sure of the defendant's guilt. We used to say beyond reasonable doubt. Now we say sure. And that means that it's naturally, We used to say beyond reasonable doubt, now we say sure. And that means that it's naturally, and I would say quite properly, weighted in favour of the defendant because a criminal conviction is such a serious thing. And it's better to, the adage goes, it's better to ensure, it's better for 10 guilty men to walk through than for one innocent

to be locked up. But that does mean that if you have a long delay, if you have a four-, five if you have four, five, six year delay, or even an eight year delay, as Keira said, inevitably, people's memories deteriorate. And especially in the cases of eyewitnesses or other witnesses who might be giving supportive evidence, it's been a long time for them. And if their memory doesn't quite come up to scratch, and juries are told repeatedly by judges, it's not a memory test. People are allowed to refer to their witness statements if they need to.

But if a witness is constantly referring to their witness statement, it can come across as a little bit less compelling to a jury. And that can certainly help defendants. I understand, of course, as many years go on as we were discussing. Ciara, with the delays, do you think that it impacts people's willingness to report sexual assault? You mentioned that there's a number that don't report. The statistics that you have

estimate five and six people, excuse me, five and six women who are raped don't report. And for men, it's four in five men. I'm just curious for your thoughts on that. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's hard in five men um i'm just curious for your thoughts on that yeah it's i mean it's it's hard to put into words how damaging um the the current experience of the system is for people and at the moment the what we call the attrition rate so the number of people who come forward to report rape and sexual offenses and then then bluntly give up is 59%.

So that means more often than not, people actually give up on that system that they have put their faith in and that they're seeking criminal justice from. And that of itself is appalling and it speaks volumes to the impact of this on people who've come forward. And it's, you know, it's unacceptable. There's a number of issues that people will have seen in the news recently related to this. There are suggested solutions from the new government, 80 new rape courts that will impact.

There's questions whether they'll be able to kind of fast track some of these cases. And the need for specialist rape courts was something Rape Crisis mentioned in their 2023 report, which was called Breaking Point, if people want to read it. What do you think about that? Yeah, you know, we think that 18 new rape courts

is really, really interesting. And I think there's a real moment of kind of optimism with having a new government who've said that they are committed to halving violence against women and girls over a decade. As always we need to see the detail of that and we would welcome very much an immediate consultation on what that will mean. Last year our rape crisis centres supported over 80,000 survivors of rape and sexual

abuse so it's going to be really important to have the right voices at the table and ensure that those services and the people supporting them are represented. But as always, with this kind of systemic change that's required, it's got to have leadership from the top and it's got to have a coherent and joined up approach with all the different agencies and people who are needed to make these changes there and and a sense of urgency to go with it you know we've seen with riots that you know when there is when there is the will and coordinated efforts to make a difference to prioritize cases and get them through we can can do that. And that was magistrates courts however, which is a different system and what we're talking about

is the Crown Criminal Court. I just want to read actually in relation particularly to some of the aspects we're discussing, a government statement, a Ministry of Justice spokesperson said the criminal justice system has been under enormous strain for many years. Addressing this is a priority for this government which is why we've committed to fast tracking rape cases as a first step to reducing

the number of outstanding cases some of the numbers are staggering as you were describing um kira and to the cps statement a crown prosecution service spokesperson said we recognize how deeply damaging delays are for victims of rape and serious sexual offences, which is why we're working closely with partners across the criminal justice system to do everything we can to see cases progress through the courts. We're working with police to make lasting improvements to how every rape case is handled. And our suspect-centred approach means we always focus on the behaviour and actions of the suspect and not the victim. We're also transforming the way we work with victims,

including appointing a dedicated victim liaisons officer in every part of the country to make sure we provide a more supportive service throughout. So that's a little, Harriet, of what was said. And I'm wondering also for your thoughts on something that many people were discussing yesterday, that the Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper Cooper vowed to crack down on people, and I quote, pushing harmful or hateful beliefs, including extreme misogyny.

She was announcing a new approach to fighting extremism, and she directed the Home Office to identify any gaps in existing policy which need to be addressed to crack down on those pushing harmful and hateful beliefs and violence. Do you think something like that can make a difference as it's kind of going alongside, I suppose, some of the other aspects that the government is putting forward? Harriet? I think it absolutely can.

I think the UN itself has questioned whether misogyny is a gateway to extremism for some time. And I mean, if we look at extreme events, there is often a theme of targeting women and girls. I mean, we don't yet know the motive behind the Southport attacks, but it appears to have been girls who were targeted. The Manchester Arena bomb targeted an Ariana Grande concert. Her fan base at the time largely consisted of teenage girls. The Portsmouth attack in 2021, the attack was found to have posted about the arrogance of women on online misogynistic message boards. So there is very clearly a link between extremism and misogyny. And I'm very glad

that that's part of the approach that the government's taking. And I should say with Southport, we don't have a motive described that in any way targeted girls, for example, but I know it is one of the discussions that people have been talking about. I do want to let people know if you've been affected by any of the issues raised in this discussion, you can go to the BBC Action Line

for links to support organisations. I want to thank both of my guests, Ciara Bergman, who is CEO of the Rape Crisis Centre in England and Wales, and Harriet Johnson, author of Enough, the Violence Against Women and How to End It. Thank you for all your messages coming

in. Let me see, here's one on this discussion. My daughter was raped in January 2023. Still no decision from the CPS. Lots of delay with police investigations too, a change of staff, a lack of process. It's horrendous for victims and their families and hugely impacting for their mental health. Therapeutic

services have ridiculous wait times too. So many like us have to pay to protect our children. Looking at conviction rates, she's now asking whether she should even go ahead as it is such a damaging process. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch

with the program today. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. I want to tell you about another program that will be coming up.

It is on the bank holiday. And it's all about sisters. And I want to hear from you. Do you have a sister how has your relationship shaped your life maybe also how has it changed throughout your life what draws you apart what brings you back together and if you don't have a sister what have you observed about the female sibling relationships around you or indeed where have you found a sister outside of your family you can text us your comments and your stories, 84844,

or email us on our website, on social media. We are at BBC Women's Hour. I'm looking forward to chatting all about sisters on the Bank Holiday Monday. Now, let us get back to this week, which is Listener Week. And when we asked you what you'd like to hear about during this week sue turnbull wrote to us on instagram she says how about covering women working in heritage crafts well it turns out that sue isn't the only one that's interested

because a listener katie suggested that we speak to cathedral stonemason rachel ragg now cathedral stonemason that might conjure up visions from an earlier age chipping away. But money exists today. And we wondered, what is it that a stonemason actually does now? And how do you start a career in stonemasonry? Well, it's definitely not a job for anyone with a fear of heights, as our reporter Martha Owen found out when she went to meet Rachel, where she works. That is 70 feet up the scaffolding on Lincoln Cathedral.

It never gets any easier. It's a bit of a walk, isn't it? The first one after a break is always the hardest one. Hi, I'm Rachel and I'm a heritage stonemason here at Lincoln Cathedral. What is it that a stonemason actually does? So here at Lincoln Cathedral we have a few stones that have not weathered well. So we clean the stonework, we measure up and make templates for new stone replacements,

carve the stones, and then we come up on site and we fix the stone on the building. So we really get an all around view, like we get to do the whole process. I think when you tell people you're a heritage stonemason and you work on a cathedral, they have this fanciful view that you're on the roof tippy-tapping delicate gargoyles and flowers all day, but sometimes we're just building walls and lifting heavy stones.

You can see how much damage there is. What does it look like? It's sort of like... It's almost dusty. Yeah, the Lincoln stone delaminates in layers and gets a bit kind of dusty and powdery underneath quite a lot of the stone does kind of remind me of food is that weird no I'm like really buttery and that's how I explain a mortar mixing to people like if you're making a pointing mix it wants to be like an unbaked gingerbread but if you're making a bedding mix it's got to

be like a nice buttercream I love this is baking and stonemasonry is the combination no one expects so you've taken all of your measurements for the the stone that you're going to replace you've got all of the angles and the shapes is it straight into carving like what's next no not at all so I come up on site and I take all my measurements and then I take everything up to the drawing room, which is in the roof of the cathedral. Can we go there now? We can, yeah. We'll give you a look. Wow, so we've come up a little spiral staircase through a gate and it's got a beautiful sign saying drawing room on. Come on in so we're on

site we get our measurements and then i come up to the drawing room and then i will start to plot the shapes and the size of that stone fully to scale so if we have an arch that we need to set out and the center of the arch is eight meters then we have an eight meter compass and we draw it to size to scale you have an eight meter compass yes that is what it's down here it's yna mae gennym ni dyn o 8m ac yn ei ddrau i fes i sgail. Mae gennych chi dyn o 8m? Ie. Beth yw hynny? Mae'n y dyn yma, y stic mawr, ac mae'n y stic sy'n dweud, do'n bwydo'r stic hwn, mae'n stic pwysig iawn.

Mae'r ddraun i'r cwmpas ysbantrol wedi'i gyflwyno ar y top o'r casglu. Felly, beth yw'r cwmpas ysbantrol? Y cwmpas ysbantrol yw'r ston sy'n gosod ar y llawr o'r arch, ac mae'n gael ychydig o ddau pwyntiau hyfryd, gan and it has these beautiful pointed, almost like a lemon squeezer, carvings on them. And we've got profile sections here to get the right curves in the moulding. There is so much maths involved in this. Yeah, it's maths but it's art. When I was at school doing all of my geometry, like any 13, 14 year old kid,

you'll say I'm never going to use this in real life, Pythagoras who? But now, in my 30s, I'm like, I really need to know. I need to know Pythagoras. I need to know how to find the radius of a circle just using compasses. So it's that really pleasing, practical Euclidean geometry. And it's really beautiful. So how long have you been a stonemason for? I've been a stonemason a little over six years now. But you haven't always been a stonemason have you? No I retrained at the

ripe old age of 29. I did fine art at university and then I was working in retail and it just wasn't for me it wasn't something that I enjoyed or was really passionate about. So what was it that made you take that jump and retrain? Like, was there a pivotal moment where you thought, this isn't me? Yeah, there was a little bit of a turning point about eight years ago now. So two years before I started my apprenticeship, I was actually in a car crash. I mean, I'm happy, like, talking about it. I don't talk about it very often just because it feels a bit like a sob story and it wasn't really I mean it could happen to anyone I was incredibly lucky and I was so well

taken care of. I know you don't want to make it a sub story it does sound really really tough. There was a period of time where I couldn't walk and I did have to learn how to walk again and go to a physical rehabilitation therapy and so yeah to learn how to walk again and go to a physical rehabilitation therapy. And so, yeah, after learning how to walk again, I was very determined that I was going to be able to do everything that I could do before. So did it change your outlook on life? Absolutely, yeah. I think when you're in hospital and you've got this period of time to just lay there and think, it just occurred to me that up until that point in my mid-twenties,

I was just doing quite a lot of stuff for other people. Obviously, I want to make my parents and my family proud. I definitely felt the pressure to go to university and succeed in a very specific way. And I just thought, well, actually, that's not what I enjoy. What do I enjoy? What do I want to do? And it gave me a new outlook on life and made me feel a little bit braver I've kind of felt like I was given a bit of a second chance and I need to really make the most of it and just say yes to a lot of things and really dive into stuff and not be too afraid and not to hold myself back I think there was an element of holding myself back I guess yeah it's like if you've not been in total

control of your body and you've had that taken away from you it kind of makes you realise what you do have control over. It's something you take for granted just being able to walk up and down the stairs being able to get up and make yourself a sandwich and things like that when all of that is suddenly taken away from you it does give you a new perspective on things that are important so just being able to get up and walk across the room at one point in my life was a bit of a challenge. And so everything from now on just feels like a bonus. And now you're going up and down scaffolding. Yeah, look at me now.

Yeah, the apprenticeship came up and a friend of mine was like, oh my gosh, you have to do this. This is you because it's history and it's craft and it's making and it's outdoorsy and it was perfect. I was so lucky to have been selected. I'm really interested as well, you started when you were 29? Yes. What was it like doing that when you were slightly older? I think I definitely got more out of the experience being older because obviously I'd lived a bit of a life,

I'd had jobs and I'd worked and I'd already done a degree and gone to uni and done all of that and I feel like I could bring more into it and really dedicate myself to the course in a different way that I don't think I would have as much when I was 18. I think if I'd have done this when I was 18 I might not have gotten as much out of it as I have now. So we've got the measurements up on the scaffolding, we've come down, we've set out the template, we know what the stone needs to be. Is it carving time? It's finally carving time, yeah. Shall we head down? Let's go to the workshop. Yes! In the east end of the cathedral, in a bit we call the Angel Choir, and it's called the Angel Choir because the spandrels up here

are adorned with all these angels looking down over the choir. Gorgeous, so it's these kind of vaulting arches and then the angels are perched. They're perched at the bottom of the springing point of the vaults, looking over the choir. And just at the apex of those two arches, just where they meet. Oh my goodness. At the bottom of the cluster cap.

There's a little imp. So that's the famous Lincoln imp. He does look a bit cheeky. Yeah. Do you like that there's so much history as part of this job? Yeah. I mean, even before I started working here, I'm a big history nerd, especially medieval history.

So, yeah, the fact that I get to work on a medieval building in that living, breathing structure as a Mason, you definitely think of previous Masons from hundreds of years ago as just your colleagues. It's amazing. Shall we keep going? I'm going to follow you. Right, where are we? So we're in the Mason's workshop or the banker shop here at Lincoln Cathedral Works Department

Looking round, I mean there's There's just casual bits of cathedral Yeah, just on a table just a quick pinnacle So I can see loads of tools behind you Tell me about what a stonemason uses when they're working. Here I've got my dividers and my calipers

for just taking measurements directly from a template and applying it to the stone. Or depth gauges are really important. I like collecting antique tools, so a lot of these have come from car boots or flea markets. I've never met a wooden handle trowel in a junk shop that i haven't bought have you got a favorite favorite tool got a favorite mallet let's talk about i really like this one so this mallet is made out of lignum vitae which is sadly almost extinct now but if you can get your hands on an antique crown green bowls ball,

which is what this is, and if you know a handy joiner who can turn it into a mallet, then I've got a bowls ball mallet made out of lignum vitae, which is a hard, really hard, really dense, amazing wood for carving. Would you mind showing me a bit of work then? Yeah, let's do it. So I've got a piece of Lincoln stone here and this is going to make a small roll

for a piece that is damaged on the chapter house. I'm halfway through doing it at the moment so I've just got a few chamfers left. So we use our pitcher to remove as much stone as we can. Our Lincoln stone is really hard for limestone, it's very tempted to just smash through it but that's when you can pluck the stone. We're doing it all by hand, it would be a lot quicker obviously if we were using things like grinders but we don't use electric tools. We try and predominantly do everything by hand with mallets and hammers and chisels

because I think it's as important to preserve the craft as it is to preserve the building. I think the history of the craft is as important as the history of our built fabric. And I mean how much has changed in the hundreds of years that people have been stonemasons at Lincoln Cathedral? Not a lot has changed. I'm pretty sure a medieval mason could walk in here and pick up a template and a mallet and just crack on. Obviously, it's a gorgeous, gothic building and really dramatic and ornate, but the job is still construction.

Are there a lot of women working as stonemasons? There are a few of us, yeah. I know quite a few. The cathedral workshops do all talk to each other, so I know women stonemasons at York and Worcester and quite a small, close-knit community of women stonemasons. There's this photo on your windowsill from a newspaper clipping. Can you tell me about this woman? Yeah, well, we have quite a few photos kicking around the workshop of ex-Stone Masons.

But this particular clipping is from the late 1970s, and it's of the first woman Stone Mason to be employed at Lincoln Cathedral. And it was big news back in the late 70s. And I was really shocked and really lucky recently that the woman in this picture, Hillary, actually reached out to me on Instagram and asked if she could come visit the workshop for the first time in decades. And she to visit and we all met her and we were comparing how the workshop has changed over the last 30-40 years. Yeah you come from this lineage of female stonemasons at Lincoln Cathedral. It's really cool because this is a photo that's been

in our workshop for 40 years and I think each like woman who's worked here has been aware of this is the first woman stonemason and then to meet her in real life was yeah really exciting and to hear her stories. Does being a woman affect any of the work that you do does it affect how much you can do? Absolutely not no it doesn't affect my work at all um we're all treated exactly the same we're all here for the same thing with the same love of the job. So whether you are older or younger or a man or a woman, it doesn't really come into it. We're all here to do the same job.

And yeah, they're big, heavy stones. I mean, some of our stones that we're fixing on the building weigh over 200 kilos, but that's what lifting equipment's for. Yeah, it's 2024. We use what we've got. Exactly, yeah. You don't get any extra points for hurting yourself. That was Lincoln Cathedral's heritage stonemason, Rachel Ragg, otherwise known as

the Ginger Mason on social media. I was just checking her out and she was speaking to our reporter, Martha Owen. Loved listening to that. Loved travelling

up the cathedral walls, so to speak. Thanks for getting in touch with your stories. Here's one. My husband and I have just celebrated our 50th wedding anniversary. We're going to New Zealand to travel around for a few

months in a motorhome. Our grown-up children are talking of tracking us to make sure we don't disappear. Thanks for affirming our crazy choice. Siobhan, our first listener for Listener Week. From Mal and Mike, the geriatric nomads, as they call themselves. That's not me. I want to turn on to another topic suggested by a listener.

This is surrogacy. It was Helen that suggested it. In the UK, the numbers of children that are born through surrogacy is still pretty small, but they are expected to rise, not just because of infertility, which may impact heterosexual couples, but also more gay male couples. Also, single men are looking to have their own children that are biological. And some surrogacy, as you will know, is extremely contentious. For others, however, they see it as life-changing.

So surrogacy is legal in the UK, although it's an offence if you advertise that you are seeking a surrogate or are a potential surrogate looking for, as they call them, intended parents. So people to be a surrogate looking for, as they call them, intended parents. So people to be a surrogate for parents. It's also an offence to arrange or negotiate a surrogacy arrangement as a commercial enterprise. There are a number of non-profit organisations that lawfully assist couples and their surrogates through a process known as altruistic surrogacy. And we're going to get into that in a moment.

It was Helen, our listener, who got in touch with her story. She's with us now. Helen Trenchard, mother to surrogate baby boy, Robin. Welcome, Helen. Hi, welcome. Hi. And we also have Renna Meares-Pye, who carried Robin for you, Helen. That was Renna's second surrogacy. She's also an egg donor, but not for you, Helen, as I understand it. So you're both very welcome to Woman's Hour. Maybe I'll start with you Renna however just to explain that term altruistic surrogacy how would you describe it and how is it different from commercial surrogacy? So in the UK surrogacy is altruistic so that means that the surrogates that I've met and while I've been me, a part of the organisation for the last six years. And the surrogates that I've met, it's altruistic because there is no financial gain from surrogacy. And we do this because we want to. We do this because we can. And we build up such wonderful

relationships and bonds with them, with the people that we we help and I just feel so proud and lucky that um I've got involved in this um organization and all centered around altruistic surrogacy so surrogacy through love and friendship really and the organization you're talking about is Surrogacy UK you are a trustee um of that organization but you're speaking to us today in a personal capacity. But let me turn to you, Helen. Was it a leap to try surrogacy, to go on that path? Yeah, it really was. We took a very deep breath,

my husband, Dan and I, before we started to look at surrogacy. We'd been on a seven year journey up to that point and IVF was no longer an option for us. And it was the thing, trying to have a family was the thing that we had tried hardest and longest for. And I'd had five operations in that journey. There had been a lot of pain and disappointment.

And when the doctors suggested that surrogacy now was our only route to carry the remaining embryos, it felt like a failure. It felt like the most devastating news that we'd ever received. And we took a really big, long pause. And we took time away from work, both of us, to really understand how much strength we had for the journey ahead, and whether maybe we would be childless, maybe we would look at adoption. But through the surrogacy organization, you mentioned meeting people, meeting ordinary couples and ordinary women like me. It made me feel like, you know, this could be possible. And I suppose the biggest leap for me was just letting go of the idea that I would carry my child and actually letting go of the shame I had around infertility to be out in the world and ready to kind of mingle with potential surrogates.

You need to put your shame aside and meeting other people like me really helped. So I contacted Women's Hour because I wanted to provide hope for women like me who are post IVF or maybe IVF isn't an option for them. You met with Renna. You seem to have trust and friendship now as this key element in your surrogacy story. You're both friends now continuing, for example, for Renna to see Robin, for example. But do you think you can have or use a surrogate, if that is the correct term, without an intimate relationship? I personally can't imagine that. I don't think my husband and I would want to enter into a commercial surrogacy situation, maybe overseas.

Well, not even commercial, even if it's altruistic, because I'm just thinking, and Renna, maybe you want to come in on this as well, it's such a particular relationship that's built on trust. To be able to find that person that you can trust with a potential child and, you know, your future in that way. It's such a huge thing. I mean, did you just know when you met Renna I have to say um yeah Renna and her family are so full of life so welcoming so enthusiastic so knowledgeable about surrogacy and so bloody normal sorry Ren but you're really normal and you and and I have to say that it was um you know it's always a good idea to have a really extended get to know period to

make sure that you know your family's gel and you know you're the right people for each other because renna and i have two members of our surrogacy team you know renna has three children there's obviously my husband and i and the trust that we have was built over several months of getting to know each other really deeply um i can't imagine another way of doing it I mean Renna was ultimately carrying the most precious thing that we had our embryos and also I think I think the biggest thing sorry I think the biggest thing as well is the thing that we don't ever want to forget about is the child that's born through surrogacy and so if you didn't have that that friendship I just think it's so important that children are born through surrogacy and so if you didn't have that that friendship I just think it's so important

that children are born through surrogacy aware of you know how they came into the world and to be able to know the person that that carried them and I think we can't lose sight of that and whereas look all friendships look different you don't have to be in each other's pockets you don't have to meet up every single weekend but I just think it's really important that there is that friendship there that's going to get you through the really tough times. And speaking of surrogacy, our listeners may be aware that France, Germany, Italy and Sweden ban both altruistic and commercial surrogacy. Others like Greece and the UK allow the practice as long as it's not commercial.

Others have adopted either a very limited legislation or none on the topic. I'd be wondering, Renna, what you would say to those who might think that women using their bodies in this way under any circumstance is wrong. Well, I'm always really keen to educate and always really keen to give my opinion.

And look, people are going to have their opinions and they're going to feel a certain way about surrogacy. But what I would say is, is that I'm a great believer that I am choosing what I want to do with my body. Nobody is coercing me. No one is trying to get me to, to become a surrogate. It's completely free will. And this is something that I choose to do and has had such a positive and it's such a massive impact on mine and my family's life and has taught us so much about what it means to be kind and what it means to have a really deep friendship and an understanding and being able

to communicate just so so important. I'm going to leave it there and I should let people know that the surrogacy agreements in the UK are unenforceable, meaning that the surrogate is the legal mother and after the child is born, must consent to surrendering

her parenthood, which is then a legal process that happens through a parental order. But really interesting stuff. I want to thank you both so much, Helen and Renna, for coming on and speaking about it. And I want to let you know that tomorrow on Listener Week,

we're going to speak about lots of things. But one thing I really want to get into is tummies. Join me tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. If you look through your makeup bag, you might have a blusher, eyeshadow or face powder that contains the ingredient talc. But there are questions about its safety. I'm Phoebe Keane and from BBC Radio 4, listen to How They Made Us Doubt Everything,

Series 2, Talk Tales, on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.